# Caulking Shower Surround?



## SDCampers

I'm sure all campers have it, that gap between the shower wall and the tub. Does anyone caulk that area like you do in your home shower? I was told that the tub splash goes up high enough under the shower surround that it was not nessecary.


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## Scottyfish

If you have a gap between the pan and the walls, then you would be wise to use some caulking to seal it up. Our Outback, when new and on the first trip out, had the shower leak through that gap and soak the rear room carpet. Frustrating, but I am glad I found it and was able to fix the problem.

Buy some matching silicone, fix the problem, and carry and extra tube in your supplies or tool box.


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## Compulynx

I caulked mine when I put in the full tub. The splash does go up about an inch, but I feel better with it caulked. Water has a way of working its way uphill sometimes.

Be sure the tub is good and dry before caulking. You do not want to trap any water up in there.

I used GE Silicone II Almond color. Perfect Match.

C


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## Scottyfish

Compulynx said:


> I used GE Silicone II Almond color. Perfect Match.


Exactly what I used. Couldn't remember off the top of my head, so thank you!


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## swanny

caulk it before any moisture gets back there. don't want any mold starting.


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## Oregon_Camper

swanny said:


> caulk it before any moisture gets back there. don't want any mold starting.


Agree 100%

Mold - Bad
Caulk - Good


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## CamperAndy

Guys I know caulking the wall to tub gap "Sounds" like a good idea but it should not be caulked. The manufacture of the tub and your trailer don't see a need and I agree with them.


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## Scottyfish

CamperAndy said:


> Guys I know caulking the wall to tub gap "Sounds" like a good idea but it should not be caulked. The manufacture of the tub and your trailer don't see a need and I agree with them.


Very well. What is your reasoning, may I ask? We experienced a leak due to poor quality craftmanship and poor quality control. Should I have allowed it to continue to leak and damage the floor (and more) in my trailer? This option does not make sense to me. Please explain how you arrive at this conclusion and how you would correct the problem........









Thank you.


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## swanny

this topic came up months ago. i think the outcome was whatever make you fell better. my only observation is, if you take your trailer back to the dealer and ask if it should be caulk and he says yes. guess who pays for it if its under warranty. so the factory is saving money and time and the dealer isn't going to disagree. again moisture is bad. IMHO


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## CamperAndy

Scottyfish said:


> Guys I know caulking the wall to tub gap "Sounds" like a good idea but it should not be caulked. The manufacture of the tub and your trailer don't see a need and I agree with them.


Very well. What is your reasoning, may I ask? *We experienced a leak due to poor quality craftmanship and poor quality control.* Should I have allowed it to continue to leak and damage the floor (and more) in my trailer? This option does not make sense to me. Please explain how you arrive at this conclusion and how you would correct the problem........









Thank you.
[/quote]

You are compensating for an abnormal condition. A correctly installed tub and surround does not need any caulk. I have never caulked and had years of mold free use of my trailers.

The gap allows air movement and if there is moisture that gets back there, it allows air to flow back there and to dry the area. There is a 2" over lap from the wall to the tub, this should be enough to prevent casual water from getting behind surround.

How I would correct the problem is either reinstall the surround correctly or if it is under warranty then demand it be repaired correctly.


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## CamperAndy

swanny said:


> this topic came up months ago. i think the outcome was whatever make you fell better. my only observation is, if you take your trailer back to the dealer and ask if it should be caulk and he says yes. guess who pays for it if its under warranty. so the factory is saving money and time and the dealer isn't going to disagree. again moisture is bad. IMHO


The only really true statement is if it makes you feel better then do it. The cost of caulk or the time to caulk is not an excuse. There is caulk in the tub area where it is needed but this joint is not one of those areas where it should be used.


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## swanny

SDCAMPERS, welcome i see you new. glad to have you aboard. just follow your gut on this one. if it feels good do it.


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## cabullydogs

Some silicone was already in place from the factory and it ran the entire seam on ours. They did a poor job in the first place, so we fixed it.


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## Compulynx

CamperAndy said:


> Guys I know caulking the wall to tub gap "Sounds" like a good idea but it should not be caulked. The manufacture of the tub and your trailer don't see a need and I agree with them.


Sorry, but I am going to disagree with that statement. The manufacturer did not see a need to brace the tub properly either, but that does not mean it is not needed.

I will let photos do the debating for me.

Manufacturers Tub "Brace"

















My tub brace










C


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## bentpixel

It is my understanding that the shower wall that is closest to the outside is very prone to condensation. Perhaps you have noticed the window getting wet during a cold snap. The gap at the tub/surround provides breathing space for the outside wall to help prevent condensation from become trapped, creating a place for mold to grow. The tub flashing may need to be chalked if it cracked, but the surround doesn't need it. I do check the splash to wall and tub to floor seal for gaps.


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## CamperAndy

Compulynx said:


> Guys I know caulking the wall to tub gap "Sounds" like a good idea but it should not be caulked. The manufacture of the tub and your trailer don't see a need and I agree with them.


Sorry, but I am going to disagree with that statement. The manufacturer did not see a need to brace the tub properly either, but that does not mean it is not needed.

I will let photos do the debating for me.

Manufacturers Tub "Brace"

















My tub brace










C
[/quote]

Did you install per the installation instructions? If you did and Keystone did not then you are addressing a quality issue. But if you installed it the way you did because you thought it was not good enough the way it was built, that is a different story.

The tub edge that butts up to the walls should be drilled and screwed to the wall studs. There is no requirement for a ledge support, it does not hurt to install one but it is not needed. The pan support in the as found picture was for a step tub and thus had adequate floor support area, you installed a full tub and thus needed more floor support, which you installed. I do not think there is anyone that normally steps on the tub edge as they get in the tub, thus the extra brace is more over kill, it is not needed but does not hurt to add it. Once you add the pleated door then you would not step on the edge even if you wanted as it would hurt your foot and or damage the pleated door track.

The bottom line is the surround does not need caulk on the bottom edge. Putting it there is a feel good effort for a correctly installed tub. If you need it due to an actual leak then you need to address the installation and not cover it up with caulk.


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## zookeeper

I'm glad this was brought up. I had just told the DW that before we started camping this year I needed to seal up that gap. Not that we had noticed a leak but like a gap in a home shower, you see a gap it needs to be sealed. I hadn't thought about condesation behind the surround though. So....yes now I see it would be a bad thing to do. Like my dad always told me " If it ain't broke don't fix-it"









Thanx and safe camping

David


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## swanny

ok first IMO, if we get enough air flow through that small gap to dry moisture i think there is a much bigger problem. were is all that air flow going? inside or outside. also i think we are starting to believe there is only air flow while the shower is NOT in use. air can carry moist air as well as dry air. another question is, how many times a day do your showers get use? IMO i don't believe there is enough time for anything to dry out. so, my shower is caulked, and maybe someday if i would ever need to remove my shower i'll get to see if i made a mistake or did right thing. until then i feel good it;s caulked.

also IMHO our rv's are bought to make our live happier and us feel good. let's remember the first question "should i caulk". and now look were it's going.
maybe we should answer these types of questions with a poll either YES or NO. much simpler. like i said, as far as i can tell in this instance these replies are only opinions mine included. i don"t have any facts to backup why or why not.

hope everybody has a nice day, kevin


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## Compulynx

Sorry guys, that just does not hold water(No pun intended). If it was an air flow issue, then why does keystone put clear silicone beads around the top of the surround? It is above the "water" line, and the silicone around the top surely stops air flow.

There is also plenty of air flow behind the shower wall, since the adhesive tape they use holds the surround away from the wall, However, the aforementioned silicone at the top would preclude any decent air flow. Heck, half of the tape is not stuck anyway.

Simply put, the statements from Keystone about airflow are bunk, the reason it is not caulked from the factory is an issue of manufacturing speed, not airflow. I worked in the manufactured housing industry years back, and speed is what it is all about.

If you want to buy in to their propaganda, go ahead.

I would rather not have soap scum and debris getting behind mine and building up.

Mine is caulked, and will stay caulked. You may do your anyway you please. I have no problem with that.

And CamperAndy, you trying to defend their sloppy tub support was amusing.

C


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## Reverie

Let me add my experiences and you draw your own conclusions:

Several years ago I had a situation where my shore power would intermittently trip the circuit breaker. I am a pretty fair electrician but this one had me stumped. I got the advice of professional electricians and they couldn't figure it out either. What does this have to do with the tub? Just wait...

I finally isolated the problem to the connection between the shore power line and the internal wiring of the trailer. The wire nut on one side had come loose and the wire would occasionally touch the metal box. Take a look:










Note the corrosion. When I repaired the connection the strangest thing to me was that the missing wire nut had MELTED off of the connection. The inner coil of the wire nut was still intact. I assumed (we all know what that makes me) that the heat build up from the high resistance caused by corrosion was the culprit. I fixed the connection and our summer vacation was saved. Again, what does this have to do with caulking the tub? Just wait.

We went on the aforementioned vacation. It was seven glorious days at TopSail with a whole bunch of Outbackers. Food, festivities and fun. Around the third day I noticed a soft spot on the floor just outside the bathroom. Coincidentally, it was about a foot from the same connection I had repaired the week before but I didn't connect the two. I showed it to my wife and we made a note to check it out later. I also showed it to a couple of Outbackers and they agreed it bore further investigation.

About two weeks later I started looking into the problem. I dropped the belly pan and could see water seepage. Not good. I couldn't see where it was coming from because ity was oozing around the foam insulation. Since it was more or less under the tub I went up and opened the access panel under the tub to see what I could see. Here is what I saw:










Please note the obvious water damage and it's location.

I thought I had a drain problem so I checked all the connections. They felt dry so I went ahead and filled the tub and let it drain. Still dry. The pressurized water connections were all dry as well, with or without pressure. By now I had shot all the one-man diagnostic bullets so I called on my Outback brothers.

A week later Lemar (CampingNut) made the one hour journey to my house to help me out. In about ten minutes we figured out it had to be coming from the tub. We stripped out the surround and here is what immediately caught our eyes:










Please note the location of the hole. What you cannot see is the giant blob of caulking the factory had squirted in there to plug the hole. Which failed. Which we couldn't see because it was hidden. Which we have since found out is a common problem. Which lead to this:










Please note the VERY good friend, Lemar, taking his turn chipping out my rotten floor. Oh, did I mention the temperature was in the high '90s? Or that I don't have 30 Amp service at my house? We would up removing the closet, the tub surround, cutting the linoleum, chipping out the flooring, fitting and gluing replacement flooring in, and finally REPLACING THE ENTIRE FLOOR WITH ENGINEERED LAMINATE. In the process of taking out the closet it gave me the opportunity to examine the wiring job I had done earlier. With the new found perspective of hindsight I could now see a water line all the way around the metal box up to about 3/4 of an inch. My electrical system had been marinating in tub water. I could see where water had actually entered my repaired connection. I would have puked but I was too tired to give in to the effort.

Now, do you see what this has to do with caulking the tub surround? A common manufacturing problem, hidden from my eyes, cost me lots and lots of dollars. It involved almost burning my trailer to the ground through the bad wiring. It involved weeks of dedicated effort by two people to bring it back to usefulness. It required the understanding of my neighbors putting up with parts of my trailer decorating the lawn while I worked:










When I reinstalled the surround I caulked everything in site. I don't go anywhere without my caulk. I would sooner leave without my pillows than leave without my caulk. I open the port under the tub after every trip. If I see so much as a drop, the whole thing is coming out again. I may even caulk my kids to keep them from becoming saturated.

Reverie


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## swanny

Reverie, thank you !!!!! that's first hand knowledge. picture are worth a thousand words.


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## Scottyfish

Reverie, I certainly feel for you in having to undertake such a PITA repair due to poor craftmanship. But thank you for sharing your "pro-caulking" story, or should I say "pro-proper and effective-caulking". I do not expect the world from my home-away-from-home on wheels. But, there is nothing more frustrating than having to deal with someone else's lack of dedication to quality while many miles away from your full tool arsenal, and while trying to relax.

If it is broken, do fix it! No seal = broken


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## swanny

WAIT







!!!! that toilet in the yard looks like some kind of yard game.







i can see it now, the next rally everybody will unhook their sh**ers and................ nevermind







.


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## CamperAndy

Compulynx said:


> Sorry guys, that just does not hold water(No pun intended). If it was an air flow issue, then why does keystone put clear silicone beads around the top of the surround? It is above the "water" line, and the silicone around the top surely stops air flow.
> 
> There is also plenty of air flow behind the shower wall, since the adhesive tape they use holds the surround away from the wall, However, the aforementioned silicone at the top would preclude any decent air flow. Heck, half of the tape is not stuck anyway.
> 
> Simply put, the statements from Keystone about airflow are bunk, the reason it is not caulked from the factory is an issue of manufacturing speed, not airflow. I worked in the manufactured housing industry years back, and speed is what it is all about.
> 
> If you want to buy in to their propaganda, go ahead.
> 
> I would rather not have soap scum and debris getting behind mine and building up.
> 
> Mine is caulked, and will stay caulked. You may do your anyway you please. I have no problem with that.
> 
> And CamperAndy, you trying to defend their sloppy tub support was amusing.
> 
> C


I am glad you are amused but your background in poor workmanship (speed vs quality) does not mean you are correct.


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## CamperAndy

Reverie - I feel your pain, your problem was workmanship not design. Do you think you would have had to make the repairs you did had there not been a hole in the corner?


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## swanny

ALRIGHT I THOUGHT MODERATORS WERE HERE TO TRY AND CURB THIS TYPE OF STUFF BEFORE IT GETS US CARRIED AWAY. I'VE SEEN THIS HAPPEN BEFORE HERE. IT'S NOT WORTH IT. IT'S ONLY CAULK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO WHAT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD. CAMPERANDY IT'S MY OPINION YOUR GOING DOWN THE WRONG PATH AT THIS POINT. YOU ARE A MODERATOR.

ok hope everybody has a nice day, kevin


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## CamperAndy

swanny said:


> ALRIGHT I THOUGHT MODERATORS WERE HERE TO TRY AND CURB THIS TYPE OF STUFF BEFORE IT GETS US CARRIED AWAY. I'VE SEEN THIS HAPPEN BEFORE HERE. IT'S NOT WORTH IT. IT'S ONLY CAULK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO WHAT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD. CAMPERANDY IT'S MY OPINION YOUR GOING DOWN THE WRONG PATH AT THIS POINT. YOU ARE A MODERATOR.
> 
> ok hope everybody has a nice day, kevin


No need to shout. I strongly believe as a general rule there is no need for caulk In this location. Why shouldn't I defend that position?


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## swanny

just look back over this post see how it started and were it's at now. i think it's ready to go over the edge. IMO i've seen this happen before.

again maybe this type of question should be made into a poll just yes and no.
sorry for the yelling must be the coffee


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## Compulynx

CamperAndy said:


> ALRIGHT I THOUGHT MODERATORS WERE HERE TO TRY AND CURB THIS TYPE OF STUFF BEFORE IT GETS US CARRIED AWAY. I'VE SEEN THIS HAPPEN BEFORE HERE. IT'S NOT WORTH IT. IT'S ONLY CAULK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO WHAT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD. CAMPERANDY IT'S MY OPINION YOUR GOING DOWN THE WRONG PATH AT THIS POINT. YOU ARE A MODERATOR.
> 
> ok hope everybody has a nice day, kevin


No need to shout. I strongly believe as a general rule there is no need for caulk In this location. Why shouldn't I defend that position?
[/quote]

I usually try to avoid these things, but here goes.

CamperAndy, we are using photos and facts that people are getting leaks from around the tubs in their units. This is causing damage. Now whether it is quality, design, or workmanship, it is happening. it is also happening regardless of the fact that Keystone says it will not.

We are trying to help other campers to avoid the problems, or at least identify them, and give them options.

You, on the other hand, are just simply saying you are right, and everyone who has a different opinion is wrong.

I guess I did deserve the "poor workmanship experience" jab, since I had made the "amusing" comment, but you were ignoring photos of things that we were having problems with, and the caulk was at least stopping the leaks, whether by design or not. I have seen several photos of leaks from the tub surround causing wood rot under the tub, but have yet to see a photo of rot caused by a caulked tub surround from moisture buildup. If you have some, please post them, and I can learn from it.

It may not be needed by all, and I am not saying everyone should go out and caulk away, but it is an option that should be considered. In no way should you say it is not needed simply because the manufacturer says it is not.

I am done with this thread, maybe it should just be deleted.

C


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## Reverie

It is a fair question to ask if I thought this was a design problem or a manufacturing problem. I wish I had a clear answer. I'll take a stab at it:

1. This was a design problem. Apparently, this has happened before, based upon what the dealership told me. At least it happened enough that they had a "Standard Operating Procedure" (SOP) for just his occurance. While I think we have to make sacrafices if we want a "lighter-weight" trailer, this was a short-sighted solution. Caulk ALWAYS fails, eventually. That is why we re-caulk. If you don't know that there is a reason to re-caulk that area because you don't see it, you won't recaulk it. Thus, this was going to be a problem, no matter what.

2. This was a manufacturing problem: That is, the manufacturing of the trailer, not the tub. I am pretty sure they wouldn't have installed this if they had seen the problem. At least, I HOPE they wouldn't have installed it if they had seen the problem. Thus, I have to conclude it happened after the tub was installed but BEFORE the surround was installed. I don't know. Maybe they accidentally whacked it with a hammer. I know this. It should have been at least an epoxy fix. That would have required a minimum of curing time but that can take place after the surround is installed. It would have been permanent and I wouldn't have had the problem.

3. This was a User Error. Why would we splash so much water onto the lip of the tub. Well, it is a Bunkhouse so I suspect most people with Bunkhouse have kids. I can TELL my kids not to splash water but I'm not sure they won't. In fact, I'm pretty sure they will, being kids and all. Even if they didn't, every time I took a shower water would have gotten through that hole. So I don't think this was a User Error.

4. This was a component Design error: I actually give this the most credence. The small lip is not tall enough in my opinion, to prevent some water from migrating over the sides. Even that is somewhat acceptable but the known weakness in the corner should have been addressed by the manufacturer. I think Keystone (yes, despite mine having the archaic "Lite-Way" stickers, it also has "Keystone Manufacturing" stickers on it as well) should have done something to address this issue before it became my issue.

I can't lay the bill for this at the feet of the manufacturer because their repair worked for approximately three years, placing my discovery outside of the warranty period. The fact that I found it means I had to take their manufacturing apart to get to it, thus they can say I caused the problem. The problem is fixed, as much as it can be and I am keeping a sharp eye on it. I suspect I will ALWAYS keep a sharp eye on it, even when I inevitably move on to the next trailer down the road. This hasn't put me off of Keystone or Outback. I don't think this is typical for them. Based upon my experience, they turn out a great product.

By the way, I'm a Moderator as well. I certainly do not want to stir up a firestorm and that has never been my intent. I do think my experience is worth contemplating. I think everyone should make their own decision about caulking based on their thinking. I am simply adding my experience to the mix. I think this is a valuable thread and one I suspect will be viewed many times. In the end everyone should just "Pull their own trailer."

Reverie


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## Rollrs45

Reverie said:


> In the end everyone should just "Pull their own trailer."
> Reverie


Amen brother! That's the best thing I've heard all day!

Mike

p.s. I'm for caulking........ just in case anyone wanted my opinion.


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## Paul and Amy

when we got our outback, there were quite a few things that needed caulking, repairing, redoing, or rebuilding as it appeared not made for longevity and it was a brand new camper. If it wasn't for my husband building yachts all those years, my outback would still be in the shop for warranty and workmanship mess ups at the manufacturing level. Use common sense and when in doubt Chaulk. Thanks Reviere , pictures of that caliber are worth a million words and don't tell a lie. maybe it should be something/someone besides the thread to be closed or deleted as this is worth a keeping just for the pictures alone.


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## CamperAndy

LabbyCampers said:


> when we got our outback, there were quite a few things that needed caulking, repairing, redoing, or rebuilding as it appeared not made for longevity and it was a brand new camper. If it wasn't for my husband building yachts all those years, my outback would still be in the shop for warranty and workmanship mess ups at the manufacturing level. Use common sense and when in doubt Chaulk. Thanks Reviere , pictures of that caliber are worth a million words and don't tell a lie. *maybe it should be something/someone besides the thread to be closed or deleted as this is worth a keeping just for the pictures alone*.


Labby glad you can stop in and help with your experience but can you help us with the last sentence, not sure what you are getting at??


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## huntr70

I think she just meant that this thread should be kept for the pictures that show what can happen, in case anyone is thinking they should delete or close this thread.................

At least, that's what I get out of it.


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## navycranes

Ok I'll weigh in on a total different aspect of this debate.

I have a 28RSS and I have had the tub un-caulked, caulked, and then un-caulked again.

I bought the TT and after the first shower I noticed that huge gap between the back wall and the tub. The fix-it guy in me said "that can't be right" I quickly proceeded to buy a tube of caulk and seal the gap. However, every time I moved the TT the caulking around that gap would pull away and break the seal.

I then moved up to a better marine grade caulk that I though would do a better job. But the same thing happened.

Then a call went in to Keystone. I was surprised to hear that I was NOT supposed to caulk that gap. It was supposed to be open because it was in an area of the trailer that flexed when it was towed. They also told me that the tub went a few inches up behind the back wall to prevent water from coming in contact with any wood.

So I have since removed all the caulk and hopefully (fingers crossed) nothing happens.

I'll be sure to let you all know if my tub falls through the floor though.


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## GarethsDad

I'm in the midst of swapping out the step tub to a full tub and our OB. It is an 03 built in 9 of 02 and there is no caulk between the tub and the surround and there are no water stains behind the surround or beneath the tub. James


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## hautevue

As long as we're on caulk: I'm picking up my (new) 268RL in 2 weeks. Photos show the tub/shower surround does not go all the way up to the ceiling. It appears to stop ~5" below the ceiling.

What about water ricocheting off bodies and going over the top and running down the walls behind the shower surround? Does anyone have comments about my need/requirement to apply silicone caulk liberally at the edge where the surround sides end at the top?

I'd like to prevent the water damages shown in the pictures (and thanks for the photos--they are real eye-openers...)


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## CamperAndy

hautevue said:


> As long as we're on caulk: I'm picking up my (new) 268RL in 2 weeks. Photos show the tub/shower surround does not go all the way up to the ceiling. It appears to stop ~5" below the ceiling.
> 
> What about water ricocheting off bodies and going over the top and running down the walls behind the shower surround? Does anyone have comments about my need/requirement to apply silicone caulk liberally at the edge where the surround sides end at the top?
> 
> I'd like to prevent the water damages shown in the pictures (and thanks for the photos--they are real eye-openers...)


Obviously there are different opinions on this but I would not caulk the top. The sides you can caulk for appearance but I would leave the top and bottom un caulked.


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## hatcityhosehauler

Me personally, I don't buy the ventilation theory. As previously stated, leaving just one side open won't do much for ventilation. I own my second Outback, and both came from the dealer fully caulked. When the caulk/no caulk issue came up 6 years ago, I asked the service manager about it, and he told me that in their experience, with repairs that they have made, the caulk does more good then bad, so they caulk them as part of the dealer prep, which saves them and the new owners much grief down the road.

Just my $0.02, on an obviously heated issue. Now, can't we all just agree to disagree, and move on to the next issue.

Tim


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## gone campin

Our shower leaked everytime it was used. We tried all kinds of things because of the posts saying we should not caulk no matter what..we did not caulk. We just continued to try other thngs to locate the problem. Finaly we ran out of things to do and caulked the shower while on vacation. The shower stopped leaking. The dealer had to replace the wall and moulding between the bathroom/kitchen/dining area because of the damage. We were told that it should have been caulked before it left the factory. So far we have not had anymore water leaks along the shower and wall there and it has been 3 years now.

Linda


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## SmkSignals

hatcityhosehauler said:


> Just my $0.02, on an obviously heated issue. Now, can't we all just agree to disagree, and move on to the next issue.
> 
> Tim


I vote for a new issue also. Lets see -

Gas v. Diesel
Chevy v. Ford
can my 1/2 ton pull this trailer?
is this a noisy generator?
can I tow with the propane on?

ok, that should get things going...


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## Reverie

SmkSignals said:


> Just my $0.02, on an obviously heated issue. Now, can't we all just agree to disagree, and move on to the next issue.
> 
> Tim


I vote for a new issue also. Lets see -

Gas v. Diesel
Chevy v. Ford
can my 1/2 ton pull this trailer?
is this a noisy generator?
can I tow with the propane on?

ok, that should get things going...















[/quote]

Answers:

Diesel
Ford
Of Course, if you don't mind crashing.
WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR A DANG THING. THAT GENERATOR SURE IS LOUD!
Of course you can tow with the propane on, as long as you change your screen name to "Chariot of Fire".

Hope this helps,

Reverie


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## 3LEES

navycranes said:


> Ok I'll weigh in on a total different aspect of this debate.
> 
> I have a 28RSS and I have had the tub un-caulked, caulked, and then un-caulked again.
> 
> I bought the TT and after the first shower I noticed that huge gap between the back wall and the tub. The fix-it guy in me said "that can't be right" I quickly proceeded to buy a tube of caulk and seal the gap. However, every time I moved the TT the caulking around that gap would pull away and break the seal.
> 
> I then moved up to a better marine grade caulk that I though would do a better job. But the same thing happened.
> 
> Then a call went in to Keystone. I was surprised to hear that I was NOT supposed to caulk that gap. It was supposed to be open because it was in an area of the trailer that flexed when it was towed. They also told me that the tub went a few inches up behind the back wall to prevent water from coming in contact with any wood.
> 
> So I have since removed all the caulk and hopefully (fingers crossed) nothing happens.
> 
> I'll be sure to let you all know if my tub falls through the floor though.


Now this reason for not caulking the tub surround makes the most sense. Keystone does not want cracked caulking around the tub area to be a warranty issue, so they don't caulk it. And improperly installed caulking can and will dry out, flex and crack in a relatively short time frame.

I clean all surfaces with a solvent prior to application of caulking. I use denatured alcohol most of the time as it removes wax, manufacturing oils and soap scum. The surface must be thoroughly clean and dry before application.

For tub/shower application I use a good quality silicone tub and shower caulk that is mildew resistant. (Dow Corning makes an excellent product). Any silicone is difficult to use due to it's sticky nature. I trick I use is to apply blue tape to both adjacent surfaces, leaving a gap between the surfaces where the caulking will be placed. After I apply a bead of caulk, I use my finger to both push the caulk into the gap and smooth the surface. Then I carefully pull off the tape leaving a perfect caulk joint. Once completely cured, this caulk will flex but not crack for a long time.

Now does this sound like a HUGE job? Nope. It can be done in about an hour with the expenditure of about $8-12 for the caulking. However, add that time and money to the production of a mid-priced camper and it's a bottom line killer. Use of a less durable product does not hold up, so the manufacturers just don't caulk it. And any potential moisture damage won't show up for a least a year, thus making this damage past the warranty period.

The idea that the wall area behind a shower needs to ventilate is preposterous. I understand that construction practices of homes and travel trailers don't always dovetail. But I have NEVER seen a need to allow interior walls of a bath/shower to ventilate. Besides, if moisture did get in behind the surround walls, it's not going to "dry out" from airflow from a gap of about 1/8". What that moisture will do is condense on any cooler surface in the wall area (see Nick's post).

My tub is caulked and has been for three years. No cracks, no mildew, no moisture in the walls.

IMHO...a no brain-er.

Dan


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## Carey

Ok, I read this whole thread.. I laughed my a$$ off! This has got to be one of the best threads of all time here on Outbackers.. Dont delete it! Put a sticky on it!

The employees see these problems of holes in tubs like Riverie's but sure aint gonna throw out the tub.. They did a quick fix and caulked it..

You guys have to remember who builds our trailers... Unskilled labor from a far away place.. Do you think they worry about a tub leak, heck no! Do you think they are worried they put a screw in the wrong spot and then moved it like what happened to Reverie's, heck no.. They would get there a$$ chewed if they had to toss a tub from a mistake.. They do a quick patch best they can and stay out of trouble. Caulk is cheap and handy so they use it for these lil quick fixes..

The trailer is inspected on a whole and passes QC as a whole unit.. All of these little problems are never seen by the QC inspectors.. The owners have to find them..

7 times out of 10 I bet there is a problem around the tub and surround.. And those 7 get to deal with a problem like Reverie had too.. Sad..

I caulked the living (&%$# out of mine.. I'm not letting the so called Gilligan guy getting over on me!









Thanks for the entertainment! Loved the thread guys! Sorry about your troubles Reverie.. That was a heck of a repair you done!

Carey


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## Rubrhammer

Andy, The top absolutely needs to be caulked as there will most likely be splashed water up there and definately be condensation up there that WILL run down behind the surround without a seal there.
Bob


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## CamperAndy

Rubrhammer said:


> Andy, The top absolutely needs to be caulked as there will most likely be splashed water up there and definately be condensation up there that WILL run down behind the surround without a seal there.
> Bob


Bob I thought long and hard before I edited your post. You can have fun here (believe it or not) but you crossed the line. Sorry if this upsets you or anyone else but I could not let it stand as written.


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## campingnut18

CamperAndy said:


> Andy, The top absolutely needs to be caulked as there will most likely be splashed water up there and definately be condensation up there that WILL run down behind the surround without a seal there.
> Bob


Bob I thought long and hard before I edited your post. You can have fun here (believe it or not) but you crossed the line. Sorry if this upsets you or anyone else but I could not let it stand as written.
[/quote]

huh???


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## Rollrs45

And it begins.....

Mike


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## campingnut18

campingnut18 said:


> Andy, The top absolutely needs to be caulked as there will most likely be splashed water up there and definately be condensation up there that WILL run down behind the surround without a seal there.
> Bob


Bob I thought long and hard before I edited your post. You can have fun here (believe it or not) but you crossed the line. Sorry if this upsets you or anyone else but I could not let it stand as written.
[/quote]

huh??? no follow

I totally agree that the shower should be caulked all around - those things are as leaky as an old and cheap faucet. Ask Nick!! (Reverie) He had to replace his floor.









[/quote]


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## CamperAndy

campingnut18 said:


> huh??? no follow


Nothing to follow, there were comments that were deleted and I just posted that why I deleted them. If you did not see the rest of his post you did not lose any content. What remained was all that he needed to say.


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## CamperAndy

Rollrs45 said:


> And it begins.....
> 
> Mike


Thanks for your input Mike it helps fill in the picture.


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## Scottyfish

Darn, missed it....This site always provides a bit of excitement and intrigue.


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## Rollrs45

CamperAndy said:


> And it begins.....
> 
> Mike


Thanks for your input Mike it helps fill in the picture.
[/quote]

Trust me..... my comment helped fill nothing in regards to what you post. Merely making an observation.

Mike


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## CamperAndy

Rollrs45 said:


> And it begins.....
> 
> Mike


Thanks for your input Mike it helps fill in the picture.
[/quote]

Trust me..... my comment helped fill nothing in regards to what you post. *Merely making an observation*.

Mike
[/quote]

As was I.


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## Reverie

Who would have ever imagined a discussion about caulk would result in so much intrigue? I can tell it's getting time for some camping because us shut-ins are beginning to go a little nuts.

Reverie

Let's leave the flame wars for the Dark Side.


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## CamperAndy

Reverie said:


> Who would have ever imagined a discussion about caulk would result in so much intrigue? I can tell it's getting time for some camping because us shut-ins are beginning to go a little nuts.
> 
> Reverie
> 
> Let's leave the flame wars for the Dark Side.


Agreed, Its back in the holster now.


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## Rubrhammer

No offense taken Andy. Edit at will. I was having fun, too. Can't you tell? Yes lets go camping.
Bob


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## prevish gang

Reverie said:


> Who would have ever imagined a discussion about caulk would result in so much intrigue? I can tell it's getting time for some camping because us shut-ins are beginning to go a little nuts.
> 
> Reverie
> 
> Let's leave the flame wars for the Dark Side.


Thought I was at the Dark side for a second there. Had to do a double take. I just wish that some professionalism would be shown with regards to this. Seems like no one is allowed to voice an opinion against anything ugly that a moderator has to say in the public eye, but it is okay to be chastised by one of them in front of the group. Just show some consistency and if you want respect , show some. These "last word freak" comments are just childish especially when they come from someone with the power to erase any words they should choose to. I'm sure this comment won't stand either or will be followed by some sarcastic comment, because "how dare I (a pion) be allowed to speak this way"?

This thread is about some freaking caulk. Most people seem to think it's a good idea. One person in particular does not. Put your opinion out there, defend it if you have good evidence (as I believe Nick did) and then just let it go! Good Lord, why make it an "I'm the only one who knows how to take care of my Outback and the rest of you are idiots" conversation. Whether or not you will acknowledge it, this is how it turned out. Sometimes you gotta know when to be the bigger man and just let things lie!

Could you just say, "I'm sorry things went so far" and get back to camping?


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## campingnut18

you go girl...






















what you said is so true...
campingnut


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## CamperAndy

Darlene - Thanks for your views, they always seems to be added when there is a little controversy. I don't agree with your assessment (of me or the rest of the moderators) and I'm sorry you feel that is what you had to post about in this thread but you did not say anything to get any part of it deleted. Why do you think we would delete what you wrote?

BTW - Is your tub caulked? Just wondering how they do the Challengers, since everyone seems to think Keystone is taking the cheap route on this, what did they or you do on yours? You weighed in on the thread but I didn't see anything about caulking?


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## huntr70

I can tell you my shower is caulked............but it is a garden tub in a corner shower.

It is a Forest River product also...........

My take on it is- it is your camper. If you want to caulk it, go ahead. If you don't, don't.

It sure is a shame that when some views don't agree with others, all heck breaks loose.

Whatever...........any comments from any OTHER moderators on this?


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## Reverie

I'm a Moderator but I've already added my comments...

Reverie


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## prevish gang

Nevermind


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## Scottyfish

Don't be sorry. This is all great....true colors, true beliefs.


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## swanny

you know white caulk is way better than the other colors. what colors do you use?


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## swanny

JUST KIDDIN


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## swanny

Let break down this caulk issue. I'll start. so off the top of my head, More precisely called polymerized siloxanes or polysiloxanes, silicones are mixed inorganic-organic polymers with the chemical formula [R2SiO]n, where R = organic groups such as methyl, ethyl, and phenyl. These materials consist of an inorganic silicon-oxygen backbone (&#8230;-Si-O-Si-O-Si-O-&#8230 with organic side groups attached to the silicon atoms, which are four-coordinate.
In some cases organic side groups can be used to link two or more of these -Si-O- backbones together. By varying the -Si-O- chain lengths, side groups, and crosslinking, silicones can be synthesized with a wide variety of properties and compositions. They can vary in consistency from liquid to gel to rubber to hard plastic. The most common siloxane is linear polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS), a silicone oil. The second largest group of silicone materials is based on silicone resins, which are formed by branched and cage-like oligosiloxanes.
[edit]Synthesis
Silicones are synthesized from chlorosilanes, tetraethoxysilane, and related compounds. In the case of PDMS, the starting material is dimethylchlorosilane, which reacts with water as follows:
n [Si(CH3)2Cl2] + n [H2O] → [Si(CH3)2O]n + 2n HCl
During polymerization, this reaction evolves potentially hazardous hydrogen chloride gas. For medical uses, a process was developed where the chlorine atoms in the silane precursor were replaced with acetate groups, so that the reaction product of the final curing process is nontoxic acetic acid (vinegar). As a side effect, the curing process is also much slower in this case. This is the chemistry used in many consumer applications, such as silicone caulk and adhesives.
Silane precursors with more acid-forming groups and fewer methyl groups, such as methyltrichlorosilane, can be used to introduce branches or cross-links in the polymer chain. Ideally, each molecule of such a compound becomes a branch point. This can be used to produce hard silicone resins. Similarly, precursors with three methyl groups can be used to limit molecular weight, since each such molecule has only one reactive site and so forms the end of a siloxane chain.
Modern silicone resins are made with tetraethoxysilane, which reacts in a more mild and controllable manner than chlorosilanes.
[edit]Chemical terminology
Silicone is often mistakenly referred to as "silicon." Although silicones contain silicon atoms, they are not made up exclusively of silicon, and have completely different physical characteristics from elemental silicon.
The word "silicone" is derived from ketone. Dimethylsilicone and dimethyl ketone (a.k.a. acetone) have analogous formulas, thus it was surmised (incorrectly) that they have analogous structures. The same terminology is used for compounds such as silane (an analogue of methane).
A true silicone group with a double bond between oxygen and silicon (see figure) does not exist in nature; chemists find that the silicon atom forms a single bond with each of two oxygen atoms, rather than a double bond to a single atom. Polysiloxanes are called "silicone" due to early mistaken assumptions about their structure.









ok got it.


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## Rollrs45

Uhhhhhhhhh

I like cheese.............?????









Mike


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## huntr70

White or almond caulk?


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## swanny

white. just look at the chemical equation on how dimethylchlorosilane, reacts with water. hope that clears it up. WOW "clear" forgot about clear,







man that changes everything


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## Compulynx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicone

Can you spell plagiarism









And the proper color is Biscuit.

Final answer.

C


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## swanny

isn't that what wikipedia is for? man only pulled it off for 11 minutes.


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## Moosegut

swanny said:


> isn't that what wikipedia is for? man only pulled it off for 11 minutes.


Yeah, just don't use it for a term paper.


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## dunn4

I have read this post with interest and appreciate the opinions on the caulk/don't caulk. Actually, I have read similar threads on another RV website (I prefer OB) and those have gotten a little warm as well.

I really appreciate the pictures and stories on failures. I guess I haven't decided what would be best, but I will be sure to inspect the area now. Me and other family members are above average or average in weight and I am concerned about that tub support shown in the pictures!

Education and good discussion makes for awareness. Thanks for the thread and the ability to archive for future reference.


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## campingnut18

dunn4 said:


> I have read this post with interest and appreciate the opinions on the caulk/don't caulk. Actually, I have read similar threads on another RV website (I prefer OB) and those have gotten a little warm as well.
> 
> I really appreciate the pictures and stories on failures. I guess I haven't decided what would be best, but I will be sure to inspect the area now. Me and other family members are above average or average in weight and I am concerned about that tub support shown in the pictures!
> 
> Education and good discussion makes for awareness. Thanks for the thread and the ability to archive for future reference.


Now that was some positive feedback!

C-


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## Reverie

I vote we start a new thread about something less contreversial. Choose one:

1. Sex
2. Religion\
3. Politics
4. Diesel vs Gas
5. Can I pull an X Model with a Y truck?
6. My (insert distateful relative here) is so obnoxious because (he/she) (does/does not) blank.

These are not just ordinary conversation starters, they are GUARANTEED conversation starters.

I am just here to help...

Reverie


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## SmkSignals

Reverie said:


> I vote we start a new thread about something less contreversial. Choose one:
> 
> 1. Sex
> 2. Religion\
> 3. Politics
> 4. Diesel vs Gas
> 5. Can I pull an X Model with a Y truck?
> 6. My (insert distateful relative here) is so obnoxious because (he/she) (does/does not) blank.
> 
> These are not just ordinary conversation starters, they are GUARANTEED conversation starters.
> 
> I am just here to help...
> 
> Reverie


Done !!!


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## prevish gang

Reverie said:


> I vote we start a new thread about something less contreversial. Choose one:
> 
> 1. Sex
> 2. Religion\
> 3. Politics
> 4. Diesel vs Gas
> 5. Can I pull an X Model with a Y truck?
> 6. My (insert distateful relative here) is so obnoxious because (he/she) (does/does not) blank.
> 
> These are not just ordinary conversation starters, they are GUARANTEED conversation starters.
> 
> I am just here to help...
> 
> Reverie


And THIS is why we call you Mr. PC!!! You are so funny and you really know how to defuse a situation. You are a cool dude


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## PDX_Doug

Gosh, it was good to get away from a couple of days!









Okay guys and gals, here's the deal... We all have opinions on all kinds of things. Some of them we even feel very strongly about. But it does nobody any good when we get into knocking each other over the head with bricks because we disagree. Now some topics just breed that. Topics such as religion and politics, and that's why we stay away from them. But personally, it sure would seem silly to me to have to add caulking to the list!

So how about we all take a step back... and a deep breath... and remember we're all in this together. We're all here for the same things, one of which is to help each other out when we have questions or technical issues. But please, everybody, keep in mind that no matter how sure you are that you are right, the other guy is probably just as sure they are right. And the way we best help the Outbacker asking the question in the first place is to make our case, present our evidence... and then leave it at that.

We're all intelligent campers here, and I'm sure that when presented with the alternatives, we can make the best decisions for our own situations. And if we don't, well, then the next time the subject comes up we will have one more valid opinion to add to the mix when helping the next guy.

Sounds good to me... sound good to you?

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## cookie9933

LMAO!! Great entertainment. If any of the people with strong opinions on this matter ever cross paths, will it be boxing gloves, bare knuckles, brass knuckles, or what? Some of the foregoing discussion makes me wonder. There's no need to be nasty or belligerent. Let's grow up.

Bill


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## swanny

cookie9933 said:


> LMAO!! Great entertainment. If any of the people with strong opinions on this matter ever cross paths, will it be boxing gloves, bare knuckles, brass knuckles, or what? Some of the foregoing discussion makes me wonder. Let's grow up.
> 
> Bill


man i sure hope they leave their caulking GUNS at home


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## CamperAndy

swanny said:


> LMAO!! Great entertainment. If any of the people with strong opinions on this matter ever cross paths, will it be boxing gloves, bare knuckles, brass knuckles, or what? Some of the foregoing discussion makes me wonder. Let's grow up.
> 
> Bill


man i sure hope they leave their caulking GUNS at home








[/quote]

Now thats is funny.


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## Scottyfish

cookie9933 said:


> LMAO!! Great entertainment. If any of the people with strong opinions on this matter ever cross paths, will it be boxing gloves, bare knuckles, brass knuckles, or what? Some of the foregoing discussion makes me wonder. There's no need to be nasty or belligerent. Let's grow up.
> 
> Bill


In reality, it probably would never come to that if this discussion was held around a campfire, at work, at a kid's ball game, etc. Remember, we do not have to go face-to-face to post our opinions via a computer to the Internet. We can say almost whatever without fear of bodily injury, hightened blood pressure, or that rush of adreneline that can occur when we converse in person. Forums, such as this one, help people to "lose their inhibitions" much like an intoxicant. With a keyboard and no immediate threat, even the most timid can tell someone off or pick a "war of typed words".

I have enjoyed this thread and really enjoy this forum as a whole. From a distance, this thread has really helped to show me who is cool-headed, who is here to help, who has deemed their importance based on their forum status, who is here simply to joke and detract, and so much more.

Welcome back Doug! I hope your trip was relaxing. It is refreshing to see that you choose to remind and redirect instead of shutting things down completely. Thank you.


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