# Turbodiesels And Tuners



## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

Ok, all you powerstroke owners, let's hear your thoughts, and or experience with diesel tuners, like the Banks 6 gun, or speedloader, or other brands.

I have been hesitant to go this route due to the threat of warranty voiding, but the more I read in the magazines, the more I'm thinking about it.

Tim


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## johnp (Mar 15, 2004)

Ah Tim

You don't have a bowtie anymore







If you put a tuner on a powersmoke and try to make more power the rest of the drivetrain is going to fall apart. I think the tranny will become an issue with the added torque and hp.

John


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

I'd agree if it was the old 4 speed, but the 5 speed auto that I have in the Ex was developed for the PSD.

Tim


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## Above & Beyond (May 20, 2006)

I cant speak for fords other than to say that you will get more power & a slight increace in mpg. But with my Duramax/Bully Dog programer my truck turned into a race car with 28mpg highway & 13.5 towing 10,000lbs. What I can tell you is dont believe anything that you read from a magazine or manufactur. Talk only to some one that has your same truck with the mods you want to do. This is the only way to learn with out spending a lot of money. Myself and 2 other brothers from the fire department all have the same truck & let me tell you we have spent a lot of money to find out what works & what does not. Most of these parts are not returnable so if it doesnt work for you the best you can hope for is to sell it for half price on ebay! I hope this helps Im not bashing your ford well mabey a little but learn from our mistakes. Like with the GM's there are 3 generations of 6.6 duramax & the mods that work on 1 dont on the other 2. Tallk to some one that has more time & money than you that has it figured out. 1last thing if some one is trying to sell you a power mod for your truck used it 99% of the time means they tried it & were not happy with it! Good luck & post your results when you get it figured out so we can help other ford owners that just cant quite obtain a Chevy yet!


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## Tiger02 (Apr 16, 2006)

I wouldn't worry at all about your transmission inyour truck. You would have to install some very big injectors and open up the intake and exhaust to start straining that transmission. I big improvement over the E40D and 4100R.

I use the Superchips Max Micro tuner on my 97. It dowloads the stock program into the tuner then uploads 1 of 3 programs that I can choose. Tow Safe, Tow Performance or High Performance. If you need to take in for servicing, you can download the stock program back into it. I've opened up the exhaust and the intake, which also helped my towing. I have the E40D transmission, and aslong as you take care of it with a big cooler and maintenance it will last a while. I know I would have to replace it if I got bigger injectors and bigger oil. I use it to tow though and not to race.

Before these mods I installed a 3 guage pillar set up to monitor my tranny temp, turbo boost and the very important EGTs. I would recommend you do the same before you put in a tuner or chip. You my have an in dash EGT guage on your year though.

If I had to do it again I would have got a 6 position chip controlled at the dash, with programs burned by some of the custom tuners out there. There are some very smart folks out there that write there own programs and will write a tune for your truck to best match the mods. Below is a link to a very good forum that has helped me out a lot concerning my TV.

The Diesel Stop.com Forum

Hope this helps and you get what you need.


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## GlenninTexas (Aug 11, 2004)

Here is some information I found in the Dodge forum I frequent. Note that many people looking for info on chips and tuners are looking for power for speed vs. power for towing, so some information you might read needs to be taken with that consideration.
Regardless, the information on how the power increases are achieved is valuable in making your decision on what to go with.

As long as you stay in the settings designed for towing, you should not overtax your transmission. Going to the highest power settings will strain a lot of stuff unless you also do the appropriate upgrades to accomadate the extra power.

How do they increase power?

there are three ways to increase power in these trucks, Timing, Duration, and Pressure. Timing and Duration will give the best gains down low and through the mid RPM's. T&D plus pressure will give the higher RPM's a good kick, but pressure is not good in the low and mid RPM's. Pressure alone will give power throughout the entire band, however you run the risk to damaging the CP3, Injectors, and the rail pop-off valve. of all three the valve is the cheapest at $2-300 and injectors start at that mark.

Performance Boxes that are Timing and Duration only are more expensive, but give the best, most reliable and safest power gains since you are keeping things in closer to stock as possable, only adjusting when and for how long the injector is open.

Pressure Boxes are inexpensive, do give good power but run the risk of popping something in the fuel system.

TST and Van Aaken boxes are the only boxes that use timing and duration only in all settings. 
Edge and Quadzilla boxes use timing and duration on the lower settings, and only in the highest settings do they add pressure. 
I am unsure of Bully Dog, but I do know it uses all three. 
Banks uses timing and duration on the first two of three settings, the last settings add pressure.

Out of all of these I would steer clear of the banks. their software is buggy, but their hardware(turbo's, Intercoolers, etc. . .) is some top notch stuff.

If I had the cash, I would stack the TST with the edge for all out power, for a little less go for the Quadzilla Van Aaken stack. then go for Edge and bully dog w/crazy larry. but if your doing this you need to look at upgradeing the turbo, SPS66 is by far the best turbo and I know a guy that is getting 1200hp with it

TST is going to be the box that gives the most power with 20 different power settings, everything else following up with about equal numbers. But I will say this; Quadzilla has quite possable the best customer service department out there.

Regards, Glenn


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## Grunt0311 (Aug 23, 2005)

As a fellow PSD owner, here is my opinion. From what I have heard, putting a tuner on a 6.0 is a bad idea. But I think that was directed more towards the 03-04's where they were already having problems. If you are going to do it, the first thing you need to get and install are the gauges. This I cant emphasize enough. It is important to be able to see the temps. Not that I am trying to draw your attention away from this forum, but there is another one that I frequent that will help you alot. It is fordtruckenthusiasts dot com. You can go under the 6.0 forum, and will hear and read all about other experiences from people driving the same truck as you. I have heard the same thing about Banks software, that it is quirky. But I know that their equipment is top notch. 
Good luck!
Bill


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

HCHH,

You got some good input. Probably best to spend sometime on the forum Grunt mentions so you avoid the mistakes that Above and Beyond told you about.

My truck is brand new and I will wait a few years to do it if I ever do. These chip folks haven't matured enough with the LBZ Duramax that I have.

BEWARE that for the most part the folks on those forums are tinkering with toys and that many of them are hacks looking to smoke the tires on their trucks. They will buy anything if it is says go faster. Then they buy the next and so on.

Works for them but I don't see the relevance towards towing. Find somebody who wants to do towing and then be conservative. $40K and up is a fair piece of loot to call a toy and go screwing around with it and I can tell you fact that a lot of those folks are ruining their equipment.


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

I would be happy if there was something that would increase fuel mileage and mild performance a little when not towing. I can always turn it off when towing if necesary


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

Thanks all for the input.

I knew I could come here and get a honest answer on this issue. I have already planned on the EGT/Boost gauges, and was thinking about maybe a fuel pressure gauge too. The factory dash has a tranny temp gauge already.

Grunt, I've already spend some time over at FTE, and just wanted to hear what the Outbackers had to say about it. And of course, I asked first, 'cause $600 to $800 is a lot of cabbage to put down for an experiment.

On another note, but somewhat the same topic, code readers? Who's got them, and what do they think. Check engine came on Fathers Day, and I was biting my nails until Tuesday when the dealer was able to see me. Turns out it was the EGR valve, but not knowing was killing me, and I can only imagine if it happened while towing.

Tim


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## Dark Green Dmax (Aug 2, 2005)

In searching for more MPG & a little go, i installed a lower budget hypertech tuner on my 02 dmax(LB7) It has 3 different power settings. It makes a big difference from stock to the highest setting(around 90hp + 160ish more lbs of torque) but due to higher EGTs (exhaust gases) they strongly recommend a 4in exhaust system. I really was looking for a noticable increase in the MPGs...NOT!...for me it didn't happen. Even the people who push the exhaust systems say "you will get 2+mpg gain"....NOT! So to sum it all up, the cheap-o hypertech+the 4in exhaust REALLY kicks the power & fun factor way up,...BUT i see no better MPG at all. But GEEZ the performance gain is great! Not that a stock duramax is a dog...it's like a super high performace sports car now.


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

So here is my issue and it involved operating points of all the parts involved. Lets take what Above&Beyond said that he can get 28MPG. Right now my truck runs at 70MPH at about 1650 RPM. Any lower and it would seem to lug the trans which is in 6th at that time. So how do you change the operating points of that engine that much and not further lug the trans, create really lean running in the motor which builds heat, etc.

Went to school at GM AutoDesign institute and before I go with those chips I need to have those answers. They are important answers based on my training. We all know that nothing is free!


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Jeez, and I thought all you diesel guys already had more power than you know what to do with? I've never seen any need to add any more grunt to my gasser Titan. It's plenty strong as it comes from the factory!









But seriously folks...

I was camping last weekend with camptoddski, and he is a team lead mechanic at a local Chevy dealer. We got to talking about diesels and perfomance chips, and he was very much against the idea. He told me of a recent GM seminar he was sent to on the very subject, and the bottom line of that seminar was that the Duramax is designed to go 200,000 miles, but if you start adding chips you will be lucky to see 100,000. Now that seminar was specific to the GM diesels, but one has to think that the same physics would apply whoever the engine is manufactured by.

Just a little food for thought.

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## HTQM (May 31, 2006)

A friend is running the Superchip in his '02 PSD. Has his set on the "tow" setting and getting around 23 mpg (city/highway combo), he's not sure of the mpg when towing his 30' TT. He claims it really helped the truck over all, 60K miles to date. FIL is part Ford dealership owner and BIL is service manager of another, both have said the same as the others on here about the '03 and '04 PSD.

On a side note, that buddies PSD is sitting along side the road right now... to much "red dye deisel" and not enough empteing of the water seperator. He's frfantically trying to figure out a way to get rid of that deisel before taking it in for repair.

Happy Camping
Dave


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## GlenninTexas (Aug 11, 2004)

PDX_Doug said:


> Jeez, and I thought all you diesel guys already had more power than you know what to do with? I've never seen any need to add any more grunt to my gasser Titan. It's plenty strong as it comes from the factory!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess its like politicians, the more power you have, the more you want.

As for the issue of tuning the Duramax, I wonder if GM is saying that because of the aluminum heads?

Regards, Glenn


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

GlenninTexas said:


> As for the issue of tuning the Duramax, I wonder if GM is saying that because of the aluminum heads?


Glenn,

It may have been the heads, but if I am remembering correctly, it had to do with the pistons. But then, I was demonstrating the available variations on the Outbackers Kool-Aide recipe at the time, so it's all a little foggy!









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

First let me this, the power is the one thing I'm not complaining about. I am not happy with the mpg's, and that is probably my sole motivation here. I am only getting 12 around town, between 17 and 20 highway, and towing, around 11.

I was expecting much more from a diesel, based on others experience. Granted each engine is different, and I do have one of those "03-04" 6L PSD's, with all the applicable re-flashes, and recalls, and what not done to it.

Perhaps it has something to do with the 8000# curb weight of what has been affectionately called "the Queen Mary" around work.

Still looking for some opinions on a code reader.

Tim


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## silesiaone (Nov 20, 2004)

Before purchasing chips, exhaust systems put a pencil to it and calculate savings of MPG verses cost of add on systems.

Second, be SURE to get a written guarantee that the chips will not void warranty on any brand of truck. I am pretty sure that is as far as it will go. No one will give you that in writting. Ford manual tells you that any chip will void factory warranty and they mean it.

Good Luck


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## BlueWedge (Sep 11, 2005)

Rumor is Ford will void your warranty if you chip. There are many many stories about this.

The following comments apply to the 7.3L. You would need to read the other forums for 6.0L details, I can't comment on them.

Does it help to have a mild 40 / 60 hp tune for towing. Yes.

Do you have to have gauges. Yes, and you want to watch them.

Does mileage improve. Yes, but probably not enough to justify the cost. At least at the current fuel price.

Are they detrimental to the truck longevity. It depends on the driver. example: Overheating the tranny is detrimental to the tranny.

Code reader. That depends on what you want to do with the reader. I use an auto enginuity and it does much more that a simple reader. ( I use it on all of my vehicles ) Most generic readers won't pull the diesel vehicle specific codes. You can also read the other forums about them.

Tuners are generally not considered as good as chips.


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## Above & Beyond (May 20, 2006)

Most programmers are also read the engine codes. As for all of the other comments everyone is intitled to their own opinion. As far as the warenty goes as long as you reprogram back to stock there is no way for the dealer to know that it was done. I bought my programmer from a GM dealer mechanic who is curently running his duramax @ over 750hp with over120,000miles on it. He says that these duramax's are bullet proof the first thing to fail will be the tranny when you get to around 450hp & drive it hard but after market mods can be made to the tranny to handle the power. I use it mostly for mpg when not towing with a 10 mpg boost it paid for itself quickly at todays fuel prices. Just my 2 cents. Todd


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## Grunt0311 (Aug 23, 2005)

Above & Beyond said:


> Most programmers are also read the engine codes. As for all of the other comments everyone is intitled to their own opinion. As far as the warenty goes as long as you reprogram back to stock there is no way for the dealer to know that it was done. I bought my programmer from a GM dealer mechanic who is curently running his duramax @ over 750hp with over120,000miles on it. He says that these duramax's are bullet proof the first thing to fail will be the tranny when you get to around 450hp & drive it hard but after market mods can be made to the tranny to handle the power. I use it mostly for mpg when not towing with a 10 mpg boost it paid for itself quickly at todays fuel prices. Just my 2 cents. Todd


Todd, when you put a chip to tuner on your truck, it is my understanding that it leaves a "shadow" that dealers can see, even if you remove it before taking it in. Anyone else heard of this









Bill


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## Above & Beyond (May 20, 2006)

I dont know about the chips However the programmers make a copy of the origonal programming Then when you go back to stock it removes the custom program and replaces with the stock program it is undetectable. Also when you clear the dianogistic codes they go away forever not even the dealer can look them up once they have been cleared so always write them down before clearing them so you have a record. 
As others have stated monitor your egts. I have a monitor that does this & if they get too high it automatically defuels the motor to safe levels so no damage occurs. This stuff can be verry safe to do if you do your homework if not it will have a negitive effect on the life of your motor!


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

Above and Beyond,

Always good input from you man. I hang out on Diesel place and a lot of bull flies around there.

I am of the opinion that a timestamp gets put with the program that can be seen. Otherwise how do they track TSB's, etc. From the manufacturers point of view it would be easy and foolproof to do just that, but maybe they didn't do it.

Tim,

That isn't bad mileage and maybe some of it could be fixed with your foot. Take solace in the fact that you have literally twice the truck as a 1/2 Ton and equal gas mileage to a 1/2 Ton (better towing MPG) is a pretty good deal.

I'm around 16 high 15 around town exclusively but I drive it like that too!


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

Well, got back from the Niagra Rally today, and was quite surprised. I normally tow at around 62-65 mph when on the highway. Today, after crossing the border, and getting on I-90 (NYS Thruway), I set the cruise at 70(right around 2000 rpm), and appeared to get better mileage then when towing at 65 (around 1750 rpm)? Anyone else experience better mileage at a higher speed?

Tim


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

Tim,

Never towed at 70MPH. Can't see how you got better unless you were using the computer and didn't clear it. I've seen a lot of DMAX guys say there mileage is always worse @70MPH so probably no "buyers" from them.


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

Tim,

I have noticed the same thing. At 70 mph the engine seems to be in its sweet spot. Seems that we see about 1mpg better than at 65. Go figure?

Bill


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

NJMikeC said:


> Tim,
> 
> Never towed at 70MPH. Can't see how you got better unless you were using the computer and didn't clear it. I've seen a lot of DMAX guys say there mileage is always worse @70MPH so probably no "buyers" from them.


This was actually the first time I ever had also. Now that I have the hitch finally dialed in for the Ex, I have to say, it was smooth as silk, and to be honest, any slower on I-90 that day would have been unsafe, as that was the prevailing speed in the right lane. I never would have done it with the Avalanche. I reset the computer with every fill up, and I don't trust the lie-o-meter as far as exact numbers, but it is good for establishing trends. I also do the math with every fill up. Unfortunately, I won't fill up again probably until I leave for N.C. on Sunday, so I won't have an accurate number to reflect the highway towing.

I will check again on the drive down to NC though.

The truck is at the shop today, to have some normal maintenance, and some warranty work, (new fuel conditioning module, check engine light (again







), and looking for slack in the rearend). Maybe the new fuel module will change some things.

Tim


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

Just a quick update.....got off the phone with the service department, and they are replacing the Turbo, and the EGR valve. After a stop over at the FTE forum, this is apparently a fairly common occurance....

I'm beginning to regret giving in to the DW's wishes for lots of interior room, and thinking I should've stuck with the bowtie.....NOT ONE WORD OUT OF YOU JOHN!

Tim


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## GlenninTexas (Aug 11, 2004)

hatcityhosehauler said:


> Well, got back from the Niagra Rally today, and was quite surprised. I normally tow at around 62-65 mph when on the highway. Today, after crossing the border, and getting on I-90 (NYS Thruway), I set the cruise at 70(right around 2000 rpm), and appeared to get better mileage then when towing at 65 (around 1750 rpm)? Anyone else experience better mileage at a higher speed?
> 
> Tim


I've noticed my mileage can vary depending upon where I buy my diesel fuel. I don't know why, additives, water in the fuel,...
Could be you experienced the same.

Regards, Glenn


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## rms0726ea (Aug 9, 2006)

Check out the Dieselstop.com, I agree with tiger02. You can add power to your PSD but you need to add the guages, exhaust & air intake first. I lve towing mine with the extra power! Adding the chip was like waking a sleeping giant! Even though I added the power I still get 16-18 MPG city, 20+ highway, and 11-13 towing a 29FBHS.



NJMikeC said:


> Tim,
> 
> Never towed at 70MPH. Can't see how you got better unless you were using the computer and didn't clear it. I've seen a lot of DMAX guys say there mileage is always worse @70MPH so probably no "buyers" from them.


I experienced the same. with my tranny & 3.73 gears the engine has lower EGT's at 70-75 mpg over 65 mph. I ussually average between 11-13 mpg with a chip that has a +60 HP tow burn on it.


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## rms0726ea (Aug 9, 2006)

hatcityhosehauler said:


> Thanks all for the input.
> 
> I knew I could come here and get a honest answer on this issue. I have already planned on the EGT/Boost gauges, and was thinking about maybe a fuel pressure gauge too. The factory dash has a tranny temp gauge already.
> 
> ...


Tim,

I would seriously consider the tranny temp guage along with the EGT & boost. The stock dash guage is a piece of junk. It basically sits right in the middle between H & C (except during warm up) while the tranny guage on the A pillar is moving from 140-200 depending on the towing conditions. You can keep better tabs on your tranny heat with the additional guage. I thought the same as you when I was considering the guages - I'm very glad someone gave me the advice to install the additional guage. The guage was reall simple to install - plugs right in the test port on the drivers side of the tranny and run the wire up to the guage - on a 7.3L your 6.0 might bea little different.

I bought my 3 gauge setup with everything needed to install from Dieselmanor.com for $300.

Have fun shopping, but remember - one upgrade leads to another


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