# Rate your Tow Vehicle



## campingtom170 (Apr 26, 2004)

Howdy All,

With all this new truck talk I was thinking that maybe a little frank discussion about our current tow vehicles could help those that are considering a trade up.

My current vehicle TV is an O3 Ford Excursion, XLT 4X2, 137" Wheelbase, 8 passenger, 6.8L V-10 gas engine, 4 speed Auto OD Trans, 4.30 limited slip Axle. It has LT 265/75RX16 OWL A/S tires, a 44 gal fuel tank and the HD Trailer towing pkg. It is also equipped with the telescopic pwr heated towing mirrors. It has an 11,000 Lbs tow rating and a GCVWR of 20,000 lbs.

Overall I am very satisified with the ability of this vehicle to tow the 7,000 lbs Outback. However, I don't think that I would recommed the Excursion for much more weight. The soft rear end is good for the ride when not towing, but not so good when you drop 800 or 900 pounds of hitch weight on the bumper.

The Excursion is good in the hills and can maintain freeway towing speeds, 55 to 60 MPH on the 3 to 5 percent grades. As the grades get steeper and longer it is 45 MPH in second. Not bad, cause I am never in that big of a hurry







, just an observation of performance.

In my opinion there are two major drawbacks to this SUV. One is the towing gas mileage. On a good day it will average around 8 MPG. Add a few hills and some headwind and you are in the sixes. The second, is that it is not a pick-up. I miss that bed for hauling bicycles, firewood, the BBQ, etc. all of the thing that either won't fit or are too dirty to put inside the Excursion.

The best things about this vehicle is its comfort, ride, power, lots of room for passengers and their stuff and my wife picked it out







.

If you are in the market for a big SUV that thinks it it a truck an Excursion might be the answer.

Happy camping and Safe Towing,

Tom sunny


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## jgerni (Nov 10, 2003)

2000 K1500 Suburban LT 5.3L 3.73 with 87K towing a 2003 Outback 25RS-S about 5700lbs loaded or so.

This has been one great all around family vehicle. Itâ€™s big, versatile and can haul lots of passengers and cargo. It rides like a Cadillac and feels very safe. Reliability has been great and has had very few problems knock on wood.

After towing approximately 5000 miles with it in a variety of terrain I feel it does pretty good on the flats but only fair in the mountains. Most 3 to 5% grades I can hold 45 to 50mph in 2nd. I have taken it up a long 7% grade and the best it could do was 30 to 35mph. Won't be going up that grade again.









I have never felt unsafe towing the Outback with this vehicle. We have gotten as good as 11mpg and as bad as 7mpg towing. Around town it gets 13 to 15mpg and on the highway 17 to 18mpg. I would not want to tow any more weight with it as I feel its close to its max power wise.

On the down side its large size gives the wife the ability to buy lots of stuff.


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## missouricamper (Jun 28, 2004)

Your descriptions of towing sound just like our experiences with my 3/4 ton GMC conversion van. Slowing to 45-50 by the top of those steep Ozark Mountains worried me, so that is why we moved up to the truck.

For long road trips though, we really miss all the room in the van. Even though the Quad cab seems roomy, by the time we add the dog and all the stuff that teenagers like to ride with, the four of us are getting a little snippy by the end of the trip.

But we are able to pass those people doing 45-50, so you need to figure out what is most important.


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## lukn2doit2 (Jun 4, 2004)

yep.... 04 Tahoe 5300 with 3.42 rear pulling 28rls at about 6000# loaded.

I was naive when I read the brochure and saw 4900# for the outback and then saw 6700# capacity on the Tahoe. Later realizing the outback showed 5200# inside, then throw in all our stuff that wouldn't fit in the Tahoe and liquids and we were about 6000#. That put us at only 700lbs off max then subtract US and go figure. It was 2nd gear at 3600- 4300 rpms 75% of the time, the rest was down hill...








That took most all the fun out of the trips (for me anyway), all I could think of was killing the vehicle that we couldn't afford to get fixed once it was 1 mile out of warranty.

So, we went a bit over kill and took the plunge into monthly abyss payments, and bought a 04 dodge 2500 diesel.
So far on my test runs, fully loaded with everything I could find to add to the outback it towed beautifully - a bit bumpy compared to the Tahoe, but very stable and powerful - kinda helps that the truck weighs more than the outback by at least a 1000# (both fully loaded). I have no problem merging with traffic on the interstate at 55, without putting the pedal to the metal at all...

This has been a very expensive lesson, that in hind sight we could have prevented if we had done a bit more research and either got a smaller outback or a different TV or gearing on it. ( I think the 3.73 or even the 4.10 with 4x4 would have made enuf difference that we would have been able to cope with it, especially for the SMALL cost compared to a new truck)

We also already miss the room that the Tahoe has (since we have been driving the truck the most to get miles on it so we can tow) - we are going to miss knowing that we could instantly say "sure, you can take you cousins they can ride along with us....." - 1 child, 1 baby, 2 dogs and 2 adults are a squeeze in a quad cad, as missouricamper stated.

Ill chime in my 2 cents after our 400 mile trip this weekend through the Smokey mnts.


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## camping479 (Aug 27, 2003)

2000 yukon, 5.3 litre with the tow package and 3.42 rear.

On a scale of 1-10, I would give our combo about a 7. Stability is not a problem, just slightly underpowered. It pulls fine on flat or rolling hills, on steeper grades, it will shift to second, but I can get to the top at any speed I choose. Granted I haven't pulled anything really steep yet, but here in the northeast it's been okay so far. I'm headed to VT this weekend, so we'll see how it goes up there.

We had a longer trailer (28 footer) that we traded for our 21RS last season because we had a very scary sway incident. That combination was kind of unstable because of the short wheelbase and softer tires of the yukon.

With our shorter, slightly lighter trailer and LT tires we have a much more stable tow combo. My wife is comfortable driving it and after about 5k miles towing in all conditions, no white knuckles.

The next truck will probably bigger and heavier duty, but this one does the job and (tops on my list







) is paid for.

Mike


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## snsgraham (May 18, 2004)

Lessons learned, hmmmm.
We have been restoring and building a '67 F-100 regular cab shortbed for around 3-1/2 years. Built a 390 with around 350 HP and 400 pounds of torque and a 3.23 geared rear axle, a real hot rod. With an 18 gallon gas tank and pulling the Outback at 4-6 MPG it could not pass the proverbial gas station but we were not making monthly payments on the truck so that was OK. This truck was always meant to be a working truck and not just a poser. Pulled our 21RS pretty good up any hill we found but it would no go up the hill straight. Too much trailer for the short wheel base I am guessing but what ever the reason, no fun to tow the Outback. I would have to rate this setup at a 3. If you stayed under 45 MPH things were pretty good but too uncomfortable (unsafe) to go any faster.
Camping is very important to us and seeing as we were in love with the Outback, the '67 would simply not do. Enter a '97 (30 years newer) F-150 extended cab 4 x 4 with a 4.9 V-8 and 3.55 geared rear axle. Quite simply you do not know the trailer is there unless you hit some hills. A good enough trade off for me considering it is so relaxing to drive and we use this truck for things other than towing. I would give it an 8. A bigger engine would be nice but not a necessity.

Oh, and the '67 is being passed on to our 25 year old son who really wants the truck so I guess it works out OK!

Scott


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## chetlenox (Feb 3, 2004)

Tom,

I've got the same vehicle as yours, only a year older, 4x4 with a PSD and 3.73 gears. I'm pulling the 7000# GVWR 28RSS and have been very happy with it. The PSD helps out with the fuel mileage (I get on average 12.5 towing, 16.5 around town, 19.5 non-towing highway).

Upsides:
1) Interior space - Lots of room for camping stuff and extra people.
2) Pulling power - Takes our local Cascades mountain passes well. There is the occasional shift down to 3rd, but most of the time I can bang along comfortably in 4th at 55mph.
3) Fuel mileage - previously mentioned, although I hear the new 6.0L PSD and the Duramax do even better.
4) Looks - I guess I just like the schoolbus on steroids look...









Downsides:
1) It is not pickup - To mediate the lack of open space for "dirty storage" I sling the bikes out front on a receiver and have a hose-able rubber mat for the back. Works relatively well.
2) Offroad capability - I like to take it on backroads hunting trips (sans-Outback) and have found it's wide width (for brush clearance) and running boards (for ground clearance) are a downside. It's nice to be able to haul a whole group of hunters and their stuff a long way into the backcountry though.
3) Snow capability - It feels very solid on typical snowy and icy roads and mountain passes, but the heavy weight is a problem in very deep snow on sloped unimproved timber roads. Chained up the weight is a plus though. I've changed tires to Bridgestone Revo Duelers from the stock Steeltex's this summer, so I'm hoping this will improve this winter.
3) Ride and noise - It does ride like a tank (especially with the E-load tires aired up to 80 psi for towing) and the PSD makes a racket. Doesn't bother me much (and for whatever reason, my rural-raised Texan wife loves the diesel engine sound) but it's a big turnoff for some. But hey, it's a 3/4 ton truck...

Anyway, that is my review...

Chet.


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## kjp1969 (Apr 25, 2004)

We have a 2004 sequoia and pull a 23RS. The power is good for all but the steepest hills- we pulled the trailer from the flats up to Big Bear Lake, which included summiting an 8000'+ pass. It did it, but wasn't too happy or fast. 'Course, those were some pretty big hills at altitude, too. Stability is very good, but we have a Hensley hitch, too, so you'd expect it to be good.

We have been getting 7-11mpg towing. The "7's" happen with huge headwinds or those 8000' passes, the 11's on the flatlands at 60mph. Without the trailer, the Sequoia is awesome. The ride is outstanding, its got a lot of room, and its built like a tank. Pretty good accelleration for such a big SUV, too.

So overall, it's great without the trailer, and good with it. We could always use more power, but hey, who couldn't?

Kevin P.


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## illinoisboy (Jun 11, 2004)

2003 Toyota Sequoia 4.7 liter V-8, 240hp @ 4800rpm, 315 ft lb at 3400 rpm, 118.1 inch wheelbase, 5070 lbs curb weight, gvwr 6500lbs, towing capacity 6500 lbs, 4.1 differential

We have the same setup as Kip, 2003 Toyota Sequoia hauling 23rs and I agree with everything he said. Low end torque is poor and the rear end is spongy, but overall, after 2 weeks of pulling through Nebraska, Wyoming, South Dakota and Montana, she did alright for a family SUV. Best performance at 3000-4400 rpm in 2nd when climbing grades ( and she can climb grades ) and 3000-3200 rpm in 3rd left us going a little faster on the highway than I wanted (63-67 mph) otherwsie she strained going up hill after interstate hill at 55-60 mph. Mileage was an abysmal 7-9, cost a fortune in gas, but like kip says- once you unhook that Outback, the Sequoia can't be beat . As a 5200lb. tow vehicle with a short wheelbase, 7 out of 10. The 2005 Sequoia has been announced in the major forums and they beefed up the engine with 42 hp and 14 lb. of torque, plus a 5 speed transmision. That may make the vehicle a little more worthy in the tow wars but it's definately not designed for heavy or frequent towing.


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

I have a 1999.....ah forget it, I want a new truck


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## kjp1969 (Apr 25, 2004)

illinoisboy said:


> Best performance at 3000-4400 rpm in 2nd when climbing grades ( and she can climb grades ) and 3000-3200 rpm in 3rd left us going a little faster on the highway than I wanted (63-67 mph) otherwsie she strained going up hill after interstate hill at 55-60 mph.


Have you ever gotten the Sequoia under load on a big grade and below 2500rpm or so? On our last trip my 3 and 5 year olds in the back seat were chanting "I think I can, I think I can, I think I can"


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

2002 1500 Avalanche , Vortec 5300/3.73 gears. What can I say that hasn't already been said. Performance is similar to the contemporary 'Burbs and Tahoe's, with the exception of the mileage. I wish I got 17mpg or better on the highway without the TT. I get 12-13 around town, 14-15 on the highway, and 8-10 towing.

I will say, if you going to be in the mountains, you don't want a small block. Was actually in first on one particularly long 10% grade outside of Walton, NY today. Never mind the kids, I was saying " I think I can, I think I can, I hope I can?







"

I've got a little bit of that NEW TRUCK/MORE POWER fever, but I think the sticker price tylenol will break that fever right down to 98.6 once I actually get a chance to look.

Tim


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## illinoisboy (Jun 11, 2004)

kjp1969 said:


> illinoisboy said:
> 
> 
> > Best performance at 3000-4400 rpm in 2nd when climbing grades ( and she can climb grades ) and 3000-3200 rpm in 3rd left us going a little faster on the highway than I wanted (63-67 mph) otherwsie she strained going up hill after interstate hill at 55-60 mph.
> ...


Yeah, we hit that at the north entrance to Yellowstone at Mammoth Springs. Traffic was terrible and I had to wait for everyone ahead of me to go up so I could walk up at 3500 rpm. 2500 was way too low. The little truck that could huh!


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## Herbicidal (Aug 29, 2003)

We have a 2001 Tundra 4x4. It has the 4.7 liter V8 with 3.91 gears. We previously towed a 1999 Starcraft Starmaster tent trailer. Hardly even knew it was back there!

I do know the Outback is errr, outback







. Still, she pulls the trailer pretty darn well. I have replaced the factory tranny cooler with a larger one, installed a tranny temp gauge and a 10" thermostatically controlled fan that is mounted to the cooler. I have it set to come on when the tranny temp hits 180.

I have found my best towing peformance on hills is when the truck is in 2nd gear and the rpm's are between 3,000 and 3,500. There's a total of 4 of us, so the Access cab works quite well and we throw the rest of the stuff in the bed. We have a weight distributing hitch to keep us nice and level. 10-11 mpg is pretty typical for me.

Looking to add some headers and the Unichip to get a bit more umph! out of her. I also use the Tundra frequently for off-roading and with a locker in the rear, she is quite capable.

Take care!


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## Mgonzo2u (Aug 3, 2004)

I'll post my feedback on the subject after our 2 night, 3 day maiden voyage from Orange County to San Diego County (107 miles) in our '04 Dodge Durango w/ the 5.7L Hemi V-8 attached to our '05 OB 21RS.

Wish us luck....but I'm pretty sure I have everything covered beyond a nasty never a good time for tire blowout.


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## NDJollyMon (Aug 22, 2003)

Old tow vehicle: '01 Chevy Tahoe (5.3 L, 3.73)
My opinion: She towed the 25 RSS just fine on the flats and traffic areas. Never towed in mountains. Plenty of power, use tow mode and 3rd gear. Scale of 1-10...a 6.
***NOTE: I drove Chevy's all my life. I recently found out CHEVROLET does not stand behind their product, and I WILL NEVER OWN ANOTHER GM PRODUCT AS LONG AS I AM ALIVE. (yes, I am angry!) Not that any vehicle can't have problems, but mine had MANY. It's so sad when a company will turn their nose up on many thousand dollars in future vehicles over a $900 repair bill. *Bye-Bye GM....*

New tow vehicle: '04 Nissan Titan (5.6 L, 4:10)
My opinion: Much better towing. Has 5 speed tranny, Factory tow mirrors, tow/haul mode, tranny cooler w/extra fan, trans. temp gauge, many more features. Smooth powerful acceleration, and much better MPG. Seamless shifting. No previous experience with Nissan, on account that I was previously a GM man.


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## snsgraham (May 18, 2004)

You forgot to mention the spray in bedliner.............

Scott


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## Ymryl (Mar 2, 2004)

Well, I am limited in giving you feedback on the Armada as I have only towed from Rhiode Island and back once. I can offer a bit of perspective between towing the 21RS with my former vehicle (2003 Toyota 4-Runner Sport Edition with the 4.7 V8 - which is the same engine and drive train as the Seqouia with a smaller frame & body and better suspension). The 4-Runner pulled the camper well, but would downshift and ru the engine up into the 4,500 RPM range on steeper grades. Granted, that is the way the engines are designed to run, getting their max torque at higher RPMs but it really didn't feel right to me somehow. The Armada on the other hand pulls the camper effortlessly. The extra horsepower and torque is noticable from the moment you step on the pedal. Inclines now run in the mid 3,000 RPM range and while I hate to hear people say they hardly know the camper is back there, that is exactly how it feels.
The Armada with the "big tow package" is rated to pull 9,500 pounds and the 123" wheelbase allows me to eventually upsize my camper which I have a feeling we will need to do within the next few years (the 3 boys are going to require a lot more space than we now have). So, I am pretty satisfied with our decision.
We did look at the Seqouia when we started considering the purchase of a larger tow vehicle. The fact that it had the same engine and drivetrain (and less topwing capacity in terms of weight) is what drove us away from it. I do hear that Toyota is going to offer a larger engine in their 2006 models but we did not feel that we could wait that long to upsize. 
On a scale of 1-10 I would have to give the Armada an 8. I think you would have to have a longer wheel base and most likely a diesel to go any higher. In terms of a gasoline engine and a vehicle that is really only going to pull the camper perhaps a dozen trips per year (meaning that it is going to get most of it's miles when not towing) and the fact that we have 3 small children (with car seats, requiring a 3rd row seat) I believe the Armada is the best option going at this point in time. It is a lot of fun to drive and has more than enough power to pull and do anything I want to do.


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## HootBob (Apr 26, 2004)

We have 2004 Nissan Pathfinder Armanda
305 hp 5.6-L dohC 32 valves V-8
385 lb-ft Torque, 3.357:1 final gear ratio
wheel base 123" P265/70R18 Tires 5200 curb weight,Tow cap. 9100 lbs.
We tow 04 21RS Outback loaded
We drove from Pa. through the virginia's down to Orlando Fla and had no problems with the hills
I would rate this at 9 Plenty of room with 3 adults 3 kids The ride I would rate 9.5 
I'm very pleased with the ride as well as the towing of our TV. And plan on enjoying this
combination.









Don


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

2003 Chevy Avalanche
5.3L 4WD Z17
Max trailer weight: 7900#
Max GCVW: 14000#
Wheelbase: 130"
Max hitch weight: 1000#

The Av overall is a good tow rig, but some of its benefits in around town driving are the negatives while towing. The biggest problem with the Av is the soft rear end. Even with a properly setup Equalizer hitch I get some sway on concrete highways and in higher wind areas. This is partially due to the 28' trailer I am towing and the fact that I am near the max trailer weight. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the Av with a bit shorter camper. I am upgrading for more seating space, larger bet and more carrying capacity as well as a firmer suspension. If the Av was available with a Diesel option I might have considered staying with it in an upgrade because the gas mileage towing or around town is nothing to brag about.


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## briansk11 (Apr 29, 2004)

2004.5 Dodge Ram 2500 CTD 325 HP 600 ft lb torque. Yes I know an overkill for towing the 28 BHS but it is nice. I do not need to worry about hills or anything. Up until a few weeks ago I was paying less per gallon (not anymore) but still get about 12 MPG towing.


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## briansk11 (Apr 29, 2004)

2004.5 Dodge Ram 2500 CTD 325 HP 600 ft lb torque. Yes I know an overkill for towing the 28 BHS but it is nice.







I do not need to worry about hills or anything. Up until a few weeks ago I was paying less per gallon (not anymore) but still get about 12 MPG towing.


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## kmmh (Sep 30, 2004)

Dodge Ram 1500 QuadCab with towing package. 5.9 v-8 (360)








Pulling our 25RSS is ok when flat land but any hills or headwind







man I have to take it out of overdrive and run at 2200 to 2500 rpm to stay at 60 mph. I am looking for better truck. Nissan is sounding good!


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

My 5 weighs about 7,500 out of the factory. I suspect I'm right at about 8,500 now, but haven't weighed it. My tow vehicle is '97 F-250 4x4 PS with 5-spd manual. I love it and have no intention of trading to get something newer (heck, it only has 63k on it).

Nothing beats a diesel for pulling power. In my area of the country (WA/ID border) we can't move very far without hitting a steep grade. I have pulled the rv up all of them. Most are 6% to 7.5% and are about 6 to 10 miles long (some longer). I know I'm not going to go up them in 4th, so I usually just go ahead and put it in 3rd, set the cruise for 48 mph (about 2500 rpm) and cruise up the hill at that speed. My rig has a 3.55 rear end so unloaded gas mileage is about 24. Put the 5 on back and I average about 10 to 11 mpg.

We also have a lot of wind in these parts. While towing thru wind, the outfit is solid as a rock. However, I attribute most of that to having a 5th wheel rather than the particular type of tow vehicle.


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## shake1969 (Sep 21, 2004)

I have a 99 Ford Expy 4.6L, and right after I bought our new 21RS I found out that the rear end wasn't a 3.55, it was a 3.31. Yikes! Towed it home anyway. It was okay off the light. It was okay up through 50-55mph. I rate this setup as a minus four. 58-59mph max wide open throttle in 3rd. That's it. Any faster has to be in 2nd, but once it shifts into 3, it will drift back down to 58-59. I'm looking now for no less than a 5.4 EB with a 3.73. And a Christmas card from Saudi Arabia, by golly.


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## shake1969 (Sep 21, 2004)

Not being one to procrastinate...

I purchased a 2000 Navigator today, 5.4L 32 Valve 4x4 w/3.73 gears. Now I should be able to pull my 21RS over 60.

Plus, think about all the gratitude from OPEC...


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## camping479 (Aug 27, 2003)

That should do the trick for towing your 21RS, doing it in style too!









Mike


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## ktmrder (Sep 24, 2004)

We just purchased a new truck before we bought our camper. We knew we had to, here is the funny story......Driving back from Colorado last year in our 94 Chey ext cab silverado towing a enclosed bike trailer we tried to pass a semi on a hill. You know where you get an extra lane for a few minutes then it goes back to 2 lanes. We get to the top and we are side by side with this semi and we can't go any faster. The lane is about to end. Jeff and I are laughing because we can't go any faster so we start moving our bodies back in forth like it is going to help and the driver of the semi looks over and laughs and lets us by. We knew then we would have to buy a bigger vechile so what does hubby go buy....'04 gmc 2500 HD diesel. No towing problems now!
Cami


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

> '04 gmc 2500 HD diesel. No towing problems now!


grunt..grunt...grunt, in true Tim Allen fashion....we need more POWER!


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## Balki14 (Oct 13, 2004)

We have a new 2005 Dodge Ram 2500 HD with a 4.10 rear end and extra heavy duty suspension. It tows the 21RS great but we are now in the market for a new 5th wheel and are looking to buy the 2005 Sydney 5th. we used to tow with our 2003 Durango withthe 5.7L V8 and 4.210 rear end.

Anyone have any experience with the Syndey or is there anything you can tell us about it?

Thanks,


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## GlenninTexas (Aug 11, 2004)

Balki14 said:


> We have a new 2005 Dodge Ram 2500 HD with a 4.10 rear end and extra heavy duty suspension. It tows the 21RS great but we are now in the market for a new 5th wheel and are looking to buy the 2005 Sydney 5th. we used to tow with our 2003 Durango withthe 5.7L V8 and 4.210 rear end.
> 
> Anyone have any experience with the Syndey or is there anything you can tell us about it?
> 
> ...


Several 28FRL-S Sydney owners on the list with more every day it seems. I have one. Your 2500HD will do fine with the 5'er. If you have a short bed, make sure to get a slider type hitch. I have a Reese Superglide 16K with the removable bed rails (for a flat bed when the hitch is removed). You may not need the slide on most situations but eventually you will.

Regards, Glenn


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