# Dangerous Topic!!!



## Bull Elk (Feb 28, 2005)

I had another post pertaining to mileage for the Duramax diesel, but I thought that I should take it one step further. Thanks for the replies to the other post. Now I would like to be convinced why I would buy one diesel over the other. Mileage, towing, etc. I am not trying to make this a diesel site, I just want to learn as much as I can before forking over the bucks.
Thanks - Rich


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

This could get ugly









I like the Duramax because its GM.....not the answer you were looking for









John


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Rich,

Why again is it you want a diesel?
Is it the premium price you pay for fuel? Or the racket?

Sorry, just teasing!









Still...

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## 2500Ram (Oct 30, 2005)

All 3 make a great product









That is all.

bill.


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## Ghosty (Jan 17, 2005)

Yep I am tired of paying 2.11 a gallon of unleaded gas but would like to get a diesel engine that takes 2.43 a gallon to operate instead --

and still get the same mileage and torque as the gas one...


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## Bull Elk (Feb 28, 2005)

Ghosty said:


> Yep I am tired of paying 2.11 a gallon of unleaded gas but would like to get a diesel engine that takes 2.43 a gallon to operate instead --
> 
> and still get the same mileage and torque as the gas one...
> 
> ...


Alright everyone,
I thought this might get some comments, but I did not expect it to offend anyone with a gas engine. My wife does not even like the smell of diesel, but I am also looking for a pick-up to use for high miles of work as well. The 5-7 mpg makes a ton of difference, even with the slightly higher diesel price. Who knows, I still might end up with a gasser. Keep the comments coming. This is what makes this sight so fun.
Thanks - Rich


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## 2500Ram (Oct 30, 2005)

Ghosty said:


> and still get the same mileage and torque as the gas one...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really? Your 315hp is impressive in your sig but I doubt the mileage or torque part especially while towing. No flaming intended, I'm playing nice tonight.

Bill.


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

> and still get the same mileage and torque as the gas one... biggrin.gif


Whao there partner....How do you figure the same mileage and torque as a gas engine?

If we assume you are talking about a big block, we'll use Chevy's 8.1L Vortec,
we'll see that in 2006 model it is rated as follows:

# 330 horsepower @ 4200 rpm
# 450 lb.-ft. of torque @ 3200 rpm

Now the Duramax diesel of the same model year is rated:

For production units after Sept. 2005 with the Allison six-speed automatic transmission:
360 horsepower @ 3000 rpm
650 lb.-ft. of torque @ 1600 rpm

200 lb-ft is quite a bit of difference in torque and considering that it does it at half the rpm should say something. When towing, HP don't mean a whole lot, it's torque that gets the load moving.

Now about mileage, most folks I have conversed with the have a duramax, or any of the other manufacturers diesels are getting something like

14-16 around town
18-22 on the highway, 
12-14 towing.

Of course these numbers are somewhat subjective, as actual mileage would depend individual driving styles, terrain, weather and fuel quality.

I challenge anyone with a stock 8.1L in their truck to get that kind of mileage.

What happens up here is that yes, diesel is more expensive than gasoline, right now, gas $2.459 and diesel is $2.719, but after I substitute the above numbers for what I get with my 5.3L Vortec, I save $25 for every 1000 miles driven. Is that enough to justify spending $8000 more on a diesel, that is a question that only the individual can answer. I am going through the same process as Bull Elk is right now, and I think he is doing the right thing by looking at everything before jumping off the deep end.

Boy of boy, bull elk you sure opened a can of worms with this thread...









To answer your question, I think all three have made a fine engine. Each has had it's ups and downs, so it will probably come down to, you should drive all 3, and pick the one that best suits your needs, tastes, and wallet.

Tim


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## chetlenox (Feb 3, 2004)

I'm with Bill, I doubt you could go wrong with any of the three. And it sounds like there may be more added to the mix shortly, I've heard Nissan and others are thinking of adding diesel options to their trucks...

Chet.


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## Katrina (Dec 16, 2004)

Best would be an F-350 with a Cummins and an Allison 6 speed.
Since that truck is not available, I say go Chevy.
The Duramax and Allison is a good combo.


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## huntr70 (Jul 8, 2005)

Ghosty said:


> Yep I am tired of paying 2.11 a gallon of unleaded gas
> [snapback]74778[/snapback]​


I wish I could find gas that cheap.....

the best around here is $2.39...and thats the stuff that is half water!!!!

Steve


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## 2500Ram (Oct 30, 2005)

Bull Elk said:


> The 5-7 mpg makes a ton of difference, even with the slightly higher diesel price. Who knows, I still might end up with a gasser. Keep the comments coming. This is what makes this sight so fun.
> Thanks - Rich
> 
> 
> ...


OK, I'll bite with my real world experience only on the Dodge Ram Cummins. You can expect about 12-14 mpg towing a fully loaded TT in the mountains in Colorado, I've never pulled on the flats or low altitude. While camping last year a neighbor, next site over, was from Kansas with a Ram 2500 V10 gasser. We started talking and he loved the power of the gasser but the average mpg was 7mpg hwy speed on the flats in Colorado and Kansas, we didn't talk about mpg unloaded. He had not calculated any mountain driving yet as he had just filled before camp. I will say you "should" get better mileage from a diesel vs gas in any configuration if your comparing apples to apples meaning, ram 2500 Diesel to Ram 2500 Gas or Ford to Ford.

Bill still playing nice with our new 7mg DSL. It's nice


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Bull Elk said:


> I thought this might get some comments, but I did not expect it to offend anyone with a gas engine.


No offense taken, BullElk.
We're just havin' fun!









And BTW, if it is torque you need... Go Diesel!

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## Burger (Dec 20, 2005)

I just traded my 02 Dodge quad cab 5.9 gasser for the Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab w/Duramax. I "thought" I was driving a truck before, but I know I am now.







I test drove every diesel out there and it boiled down to the DW's preference on seat comfort and bottom line price. Take your time and evaluate each make. Don't make the mistake of "settling"... get what you want and you'll be happier with whatever you buy. The power of the diesel over the gasser just has to be tried to be believed. Good luck!


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## nynethead (Sep 23, 2005)

I think it comes down to personel preference. My one cousin has the ford with the 7.3L in a 350 crew, he gets 18-20 arounf town and 12 pulling a 36' raptor traveling in around 12,500 with water and gear 65-70 down the highway. His brother has a dodge 2500 that he pulls a tractor back and forth from NY to NC, he also drives to florida and has over a 100K with no problems. My brother is top rated mechanic trained on all models and specializes in transmissions and he prefers the Gm because of the Allison and the diesel is made by isuzu and it is supposed to be the best manufacturer of the diesel engine and he has heard of less problems within the industry. So I know of three who each like the one they have and would not trade it for the other.


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## Bull Elk (Feb 28, 2005)

nynethead said:


> I think it comes down to personel preference. My one cousin has the ford with the 7.3L in a 350 crew, he gets 18-20 arounf town and 12 pulling a 36' raptor traveling in around 12,500 with water and gear 65-70 down the highway. His brother has a dodge 2500 that he pulls a tractor back and forth from NY to NC, he also drives to florida and has over a 100K with no problems. My brother is top rated mechanic trained on all models and specializes in transmissions and he prefers the Gm because of the Allison and the diesel is made by isuzu and it is supposed to be the best manufacturer of the diesel engine and he has heard of less problems within the industry. So I know of three who each like the one they have and would not trade it for the other.
> [snapback]74812[/snapback]​


Just curious, have you pulled that trailer of yours with your Chevy? If so, how did it pull?
Thanks - Rich


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## Fire44 (Mar 6, 2005)

As others have said, all three make a fine engine and truck. It comes down to personal preferance. I would pick the GM/Duramax/Allison combo.....but I am a little bias









Gary


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

Here comes from a guy that has owned both Chevy & Ford trucks, my only loyalty is to buying American. So when I went shopping I really had an open mind.

Dodge - the Cummins is without a doubt the bets known, most talked about. At the time I was shopping they didn't understand how to build a reasonable size crew cab. Now they have the Maxi cab thing, still didn't learn though as you can only get it in a short bed. Good engine, but the rest isn't what I would need or buy.

GM - The Allison trans is reported to be good and the strong point of the GM line. Durmax is getting better with age, but its not a Cummins. Overall a good truck, I liked my Avalanche.

Ford - The super duty trucks sell more than the others, thus one reason you hear about more problems. The PowerStroke is a well proven engine, had had issues in the 03 year and some in 04. Early units the old 7.3 were great, and the current 6.0 are very reliable for the most part as well. Next year they are coming out with a 6.4 twin turbo rumors say - stand off a year and see if they have problems. The transmission hasn't had major issues that I am aware of and is one reason people want the Diesel.

What would I buy if I needed another truck? Well this time I'd buy a longbed which rules out the Dodge Maxi Cab, so its down to the Ford or the GM. Price talks, though I'd probably buy the Ford again I would give good look at both and see which had the features I wanted/needed for the price. One thing that I really like about the Ford is the built in brake controller, hands down the smoothest braking I've experienced.


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

Ghosty said:
 

> ...like to get a diesel engine that ... still get the same mileage and torque as the gas one...Â
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry Ghosty. You can't get that. If you get a diesel, you will get practically double the torque and you will get 40-50% better milage towing. Both of these attributes are precisely what's important when towing 3,4, or more tons down the road. Those are not important when you're not towing? Then leave your TV in the driveway and drive your car. That's what I do.









Bill


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## 2500Ram (Oct 30, 2005)

Y-Guy said:


> Maxi cab thing[snapback]74834[/snapback]​


That's funny







I'd wait a few on the new 6.4 from Ford, twin turbo would be awsome but just something else to break IMHO, I'm not going there, it's a great truck frame and wish I had the cab or tranny vs the Dodge quadcab. GM/Duramax is starting to be a great engine but is still new and not really "real world" tested like the Cummins there are several million mile Cummins engines around, again a better tranny and cab combo in the DMAX. Now "your Maxi Cab" AKA Mega Cab







is new but better IMO then Ford or GM Chevy for space but your correct no long bed, I wish I had one but our kids are small and don't need the extra room yet but will be seriously looking at one in the future.

This is just a who has what and how can you justify it post because diesel's do cost a lot more than gas but whatever you buy you can't beat the sound of the turbo spool sunny

Bill.


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## wingnut (Mar 21, 2005)

I work for a truck dealeship, may I make one suggestion. If you are going to buy , buy this year. In Jan 07 all engine makers have to decrease emmisions and this will drive the cost of the engine up as well as making it run hotter. This will make your trans run hotter also. This new twin turbo from Ford sounds a lot like the twin turbo that Caterpilliar is making now in the big trucks. It is still new technology and is not proving it's self well. Also in June of this year low sulfer fuel will be forced on us all. This will drive the diesel price even higher. Something like when lead was first taken out of gas, we don't know how the older engines will react. I don't mean to sound like a doom and gloom just FYI.


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## nascarcamper (Jan 27, 2005)

I wanted to Duramax but the Ford pricing was much better. Chevy didn't want to play the employee pricing like Ford.







That said so far I love my truck and there's nothing like going up a mountain pulling a RV and passing cars.


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## Bull Elk (Feb 28, 2005)

nascarcamper said:


> I wanted to Duramax but the Ford pricing was much better. Chevy didn't want to play the employee pricing like Ford.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What have you seen for mileage, so far?
Thanks - Rich


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

wingnut said:


> In Jan 07 all engine makers have to decrease emmisions and this will drive the cost of the engine up as well as making it run hotter.
> [snapback]74853[/snapback]​


My understanding is that the Powerstroke 6.0 liter already meets those new emissions standards and that it was designed to do so. If that is correct, the teething problems have been resolved already. Anyone else heard of this?

Bill


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## nascarcamper (Jan 27, 2005)

Bull Elk said:


> nascarcamper said:
> 
> 
> > I wanted to Duramax but the Ford pricing was much better. Chevy didn't want to play the employee pricing like Ford.
> ...


19 to 21 not towing the faster the better the mileage. 12 to 14 towing the faster the worst mileage. Fairly flat interstate without head wind I usually get right at 14 at 65 to 70 mph. I never use cruise so I can let it float and tend to get better mileage that way.


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

Bull Elk said:


> I had another post pertaining to mileage for the Duramax diesel, but I thought that I should take it one step further. Thanks for the replies to the other post. Now I would like to be convinced why I would buy one diesel over the other. Mileage, towing, etc. I am not trying to make this a diesel site, I just want to learn as much as I can before forking over the bucks.
> Thanks - Rich
> 
> 
> ...


Bull, don't make the mistake of buying just the engine. There is a lot more to a truck that should be considered. We tried all three of the domestic diesels. One was eliminated because of an unbelievably stiff ride, a large hump in the dash that altitude-challenged DW couldn't see over, and super-noisy wind tumble around the mirrors. One ticked me off with its - let's call it utilitarian-looking and feeling - interior, in a vehicle stickered at over $45K. To fix that required an expensive trim level upgrade. That one was also a bit noisier than the others. The one we chose, we agreed had the best ride and the lowest step-in (climb-in?) height, and was also the quietest. That its styling is not up to the level of the others just wasn't that important to us. 
Other folks' preferences and requirements can certainly be different. As someone said, the Cummins on the Ford chassis with the Allison would be ideal. For some...

Slug


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## GlenninTexas (Aug 11, 2004)

Y-Guy said:


> Dodge - the Cummins is without a doubt the bets known, most talked about. At the time I was shopping they didn't understand how to build a reasonable size crew cab. Now they have the Maxi cab thing, still didn't learn though as you can only get it in a short bed. [snapback]74834[/snapback]​


My understanding on the crew cab issue with Dodge is that Ford actually owns Cummins and negotiated as part of their agreement with Dodge that Dodge could have the engine if they agreed not to produce a crew cab until the end of the contract, which ended last year. The new contract does not have the same stipulation.

Regards, Glenn


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## nynethead (Sep 23, 2005)

Bullelk,

My 1500 crewcab pulls my 29BHS just fine. I have only had it out 3 times since purchase and only travel up to 2 hours in each direction. The firsat two times I felt the trailer more than the third as I had realized the fresh watewr tank was filled by the dealer. The extra 400 lbs was felt, but I also had everything loaded into the trailer. I only had bicycles, firewood and coolers in the truck. For my purposes which is to travel the east coast the truck is great. I'm sure a 3.73 or 4.10 rear would be better than the 3.42, but no dealers had a truck when I was looking and the pricing and trade was too good to pass up.


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

I don't believe Ford owns Cummins, but that it is an independantly owned company. I just checked the big 3's corporate site, and the only connections I can find to major componant manufacturers are as follows:

DiamlerChrysler owns Detroit Diesel
General Motors owns Allison (for those with a good memory, Detroit and Allison used to be the same company, hense the similar logo's)
GM owns a major portion of Isuzu Diesel.

I'm not saying the Ford/Cummins relationship doesn't exist, just that I could find no evidence of it.

I know that Ford works with International for their small diesel engine (6.0L PSD, as well as previous versions of the 7.3), but if you order a larger truck, like an f650/750, you can specify a Cummins engine, or even a CAT engine, as well I would assume as a Detroit, or an International. Once you start getting into those large trucks, you can usually get what ever brand motor you want.

Tim


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

The Cummins in a Ford has been talked about for a long time, the general wisdom is not to hold your breath - I think I read you won't see anything like it until at least 2012 due to contracts. Not sure what % they own but there is some amount of ownership.


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## 2500Ram (Oct 30, 2005)

Ford does not own any part of Cummins. Years ago Ford did own some stock I think around 10% but that was many moons ago.


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## dougdogs (Jul 31, 2004)

this goes a little beyond the diesel, but we were recently thinking of going to a 1 ton. I like the GVWR ratings that the Ford offers, but when we took one for a test drive we couldn't believe how much more noisy the Ford is compared to the GM/GMC.

I really like how you can get a 6 1/2 foot bed in the Ford crew cab 350, but Ford needs better insulation in the cabin


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## 2500Ram (Oct 30, 2005)

I believe in 03 all 3 Ford, Dodge and Chevy changed the engines and they are much quieter then previous. I know for a fact Dodge and Ford changed in 03 but not sure on the Duramax. Driving and comparing anything from an 02 previous to an 03 and newer you can hear the difference with more power to boot on the newer models.

Bill.


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## Outbacker612 (Oct 25, 2005)

OK....I just got back from making a trip up to Memphis for a funeral. On the way up I literally saw "a bunch" of FEMA trailers through out the day being pulled south. Out of the three big auto makers guess which one I saw the least pulling trailers??







It was Chevorlet







. I saw more Ford, and Dodge dullies
than Chevys by far. Go figure







Is it the price or what? These people are 
making constant round trips up, and back. Why did'nt I see more Duramax Bow Ties??


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

dougdogs said:


> when we took one for a test drive we couldn't believe how much more noisy the Ford is compared to the GM/GMC.
> [snapback]75094[/snapback]​


Our F250 with PSD is louder outside the cabin than what you would want to hear all day. We really don't drive around with the windows down, but with the windows up the interior noise level is not objectionable. We can easily carry on a conversation in normal speaking tones. Is the Duramax quieter? Maybe, but I'm sure that folks with gas engines would think the D'max is loud.

And 2500Ram is correct. The older diesels were considerably noisier than today's engines, particularly the Powerstroke. The old Powerstroke sounded like someone shaking a really big can of rocks. It's amazing how much quieter the 6.0 liter PSD is.

Bottom line: diesels make more noise than gasoline engines. Always have, always will. That's a price you pay for huge amounts of torque and better fuel milage. But the refined diesels produced today aren't hard to live with. And the PSD in our truck is not what I would call too noisy.

Bill


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## OutbackPM (Sep 14, 2005)

I recently bought an 06 Duramax Crew cab.


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## Thor (Apr 7, 2004)

GM's Duramax - hands down.

Compare all three and listen as well. Open the hood of all three and the D/Max is smoothest and quietest.

The tech. spec's between all 3 are close.

Thor


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## shake1969 (Sep 21, 2004)

It would have to be the diesel of the GE AC6000.

6,250 GHP, 16 cylinder.










'Nuff said!


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

I think I have you beat, David...

Check this monster out. Billed as the biggest diesel in the world (I'm sure not going to argue that!):

The crankshaft (check out the workmen):









That's one big piston/conn rod!:









WOW!









Double Wow!









A few specs (these are not typos!):
Weight = 2300 Tons
Length = 89 Feet
Width = 44 Feet
Horsepower = 108,920 @ 102RPM
Torque = 5,608,312 @ 102RPM

Think that might pull the Raptor, Y-Guy?

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

The locomotive might just work, cause it seems most of the campgrounds I have stayed at have freight RR tracks real close by. Love those train whistles every hour thru the night









John


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## GlenninTexas (Aug 11, 2004)

Outbacker612 said:


> Why did'nt I see more Duramax Bow Ties??
> [snapback]75113[/snapback]​


Chevys are for cream-puffs!


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## shake1969 (Sep 21, 2004)

Okay, Doug, you got me.

Those workers look Korean, to me. So maybe it's not as big as you think.

But you'd need a train to get the parts together in one place to build it.

What in the world would you need a 100,000+ HP engine for? I'll bet the oil changes are real buggers.


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## nascarcamper (Jan 27, 2005)

shake1969 said:


> Okay, Doug, you got me.
> 
> Those workers look Korean, to me. So maybe it's not as big as you think.
> 
> ...


It's the new 7.4L Ford is building for the Superduty.


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## dougdogs (Jul 31, 2004)

I think that motor is for those Oil supertankers

I wonder how they start that sucker??


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

shake1969 said:


> I'll bet the oil changes are real buggers.


I can just see the look on their faces at the local JiffyLube!








What is that policy about free top-offs on the oil!









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

dougdogs said:


> I think that motor is for those Oil supertankers
> 
> I wonder how they start that sucker??
> [snapback]75314[/snapback]​


That engine is a German (Sulzer) design; this particular example is being constructed by Hyundai. Most of the big diesels I've seen are started with a lot of compressed air to get them turning, sometimes aided by an electric motor once they are turning. Others use smaller, pony engines as starters. Compression releases open, of course - once turning at starting speed, the air is cut and fuel injected, and off we go.

One thing's for sure - it ain't a hand crank.









Slug


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## snsgraham (May 18, 2004)

Hey wait!! Didn't you guy's see the pull rope starter on the other end??


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## GlenninTexas (Aug 11, 2004)

I've seen this before. If memory serves its started by a deisel engine from a locomotive.

Regards, Glenn


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## W4DRR (May 17, 2005)

Notice the lack of counter-balances on the crankshaft. I guess at a whopping 102 RPM they just are necessary.


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## our2girls (Jan 26, 2005)

My best buddy Chuck just ordered a new Dodge Cummins...BTW, he has a 2002 GMC 4x4 loaded Dually Duromax for sale here in Michigan... 20,000 actual miles.

Let me know if you are interested.

Who makes the best diesel? DODGE!

I've been brainwashed by best!

I promised my Dad I would ALWAYS drive a Mopar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


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## s'more (Jun 8, 2005)

Who makes the best diesel ???

I think it's Shell.







No, wait ... Chevron.







Or was it Unocal ?

Actually, I was told that they're all about the same.

Diesel is diesel.









Unless of course it's Vin Diesel. That's an altogether different animal.


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## SmkSignals (May 2, 2005)

Izuzu


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

snsgraham said:


> Hey wait!! Didn't you guy's see the pull rope starter on the other end??
> [snapback]75326[/snapback]​


In the first picture, at the bottom of the frame, is a flywheel with a ring gear - next to that is an electric motor. Mystery solved?

Slug


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