# After A Bit Of An Abscence - Lots Of New Mods !!



## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

Hope all these photos work!

New solar panels and electric tongue jack. Two Kyocera 130 watt panels from E-Bay !!










Where the panels plug into the trailer frame










Solar wiring showing the shunt that measures the amount of current flowing from the batteries to the DC electrical system










I mounted the charge controller in the pass-through compartment and ran the wiring into the water heater space, then routed it from there.










Inverter mounted in the front pass-through compartment










The Xantrex Pro 1800 watt (3600 watt surge) inverter. Modified sine wave, but it works. Some buzzing from the microwave and the television, but we can live with that.










Another view of the inverter showing the battery cables and the yellow Romex going to / from the main electrical panel.










I replaced the lousy, noisy WFCO converter with a Progressive Dynamics 9260 converter. Five more amps for charging, it's whisper quiet, and has the "remote pendant" where I can change the mode of the converter from bulk (14.4 volts output) to accept (13.6 volts) or storage (13.2 volts) with the push of a button.










Another view of the new converter and electrical panel










I had to do a bit of re-wiring for the new converter and inverter. Rather than put in a separate sub-panel, I used a trick I learned on rv.net where I cut the positive bus bar, creating two separate panels. I put the converter on its own circuit and moved only the circuits I wanted to be powered by the inverter to the "new" sub-panel. The outlets, GFI outlets, and microwave can now be powered by shore power or the inverter. The A/C, converter, and water heater will never see inverter power.


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## j1mfrog (Jun 6, 2004)

Cool!!!

How much???


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## HootBob (Apr 26, 2004)

Nice job
Looks pretty cool









Don


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

Nice work there! I love how you did the panel plugs








Those are going to come in real handy!


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## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

Couldn't add all the photos with one post - sorry !! Here's the rest:

Perko battery switch that controls power from the batteries to the inverter










This shows the remote panels for the solar charge controller and the inverter. The top panel shows the battery voltage at 13.6 volts and the net charge going to the batteries - 0.1 amp in this case










This shows the state of the batteries - in this case they're full. The bottom remote is for the inverter and the amber light shows we're on battery power with battery voltage at 13.5 volts.










This shows a graphical representation of the battery state.










This is with the microwave oven running and shows that we're pulling 83.1 amps from the batteries, and the bottom remote show 0.81 kilowatts (or 810 watts) being used.










This shows the charge controller status - it's receiving 14.7 volts and 1.6 amps from the one panel thats hooked up, and it's putting out 1.8 amps. The lower panel show we're using 860 watts from the microwave oven.










And finally, I replaced the rickety stab jacks with nice BAL scissor jacks - nice and sturdy now !!












j1mfrog said:


> Nice work there! I love how you did the panel plugs
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I got all of the connectors from West Marine. They're actually made for going through the deck on a boat, so I figured they should work on a trailer frame !! Pain in the butt to attach them to the wiring though.....


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## Katrina (Dec 16, 2004)

Looks like great work!
You don't think the inverter will overheat in that wooden box do you?
Those things need lots of air flow.


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## Lady Di (Oct 28, 2005)

Wow!

Very impressive!


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## Scrib (Jun 28, 2005)

That looks great!


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## ARzark (Aug 9, 2005)

Wow, you have been busy!
Very nice, clean job


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## firefighter320ms (Feb 19, 2007)

Awesome job, I know that it took many man hours to finish that modification.


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Saweeet









I'm getting ready to install a PD9260 converter/charger as well. Did you need to change the original 12VDC fuse panel, or were you just able to bring the new PD converter wires to the existing panel?

Nice job


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## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

Katrina said:


> Looks like great work!
> You don't think the inverter will overheat in that wooden box do you?
> Those things need lots of air flow.


The top of the box is open where the cables go to the battery switch, and I drilled a few holes in the bottom of the box (at the underside of the inverter) where the inverter fans are located. I had to protect the inverter somehow from all the junk in the compartment.

Unless the pass-through compartment gets really hot (which it can), it should work ok. If the inverter or the charge controller get too hot, they'll just shut down and cool off. We'll know this summer!!

The nice part about having the inverter where it is, is you can't even hear the fans when they're running unless you really listen hard!


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## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

California Jim said:


> Saweeet
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I used the existing panel, but I had to cut out the back part of the plastic enclosure. The PD9260 is a bit wider than the WFCO and just won't fit if you don't make room. I mounted the converter on a piece of luan and screwed the whole thing down to the bottom of the panel box. It hangs out of the back by maybe an inch.

Cut the plug off the AC cord for the converter, strip the wires and put it on its own circuit (mine was shared with the water heater I believe - go figure.....). Doesn't cost much to get some new breaker switches, but you need the "Double D" brand.

I snipped the DC output wires off of the WFCO converter before unceremoniously tossing it in the trash and re-used them on the new converter.

Drilled a hole next to the air intake for the furnace and mounted the Charge Wizard pendant there, but you can mount it anywhere as long as the cord reaches.


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Cool. Sounds easy enough







Hopefully there will be a little more room in my Parallax 7355 so I don't have to cut a hole it. It's an all metal cabinet so it would take a little more effort. I like the idea of cutting the wires off the old charger after all the times it has tortured my batteries









I'm really surprised to hear that your converter and water heater were on the same circuit







That's alot of amps! Mine are labeled to seperate breakers in my panel but I have yet to take the cover off and verify. But I'm pretty sure they are seperate.

Thanks for the info


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## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

California Jim said:


> Cool. Sounds easy enough
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll have to check my notes, but I'm pretty sure the converter was pigtailed together with the water heater. Surprised me too.

Interestingly, we had a bit of a problem with batteries this past weekend out in the desert. I thought we were fully charged when I went to bed, but I woke up at 7:45 the next morning to hear the inverter beeping a low voltage warning at 11 volts. I'm pretty sure we were at 12.4 volts when I went to bed. I left the inverter on, a digital alarm clock, and an LED night light for the kids. It was fairly cold, so the furnace probably came on a few times an hour.

Our second night, I ran the generator until midnight and even equalized the batteries with the solar panels during the day to stir up the electrolyte. All of the cells were full, but I couldn't check the specific gravity in the middle of the desert. Same result - 7:30am the next morning the inverter was beeping low voltage.

Either the batteries are lousy - but we got them "new" from the dealer in July, or we were using way more power than I anticipated. The inverter draws about 1.5 amps, the furnace draws 6 or 7, the clock and night light are negligible. Then there's the CO detector and the stereo. We have two group 24 "deep cycle" Interstate batteries that should give us around 170 amp-hours. Maybe my math is bad, but I come up with around 30 amp-hours overnight. That shouldn't kill the batteries.

Maybe I'll do the "upgrade" to two group 27 batteries by filling in the battery trays with 2x12's and mounting the new batteries on top of those. That'll give me 230 amp-hours!! I don't think I want to do the 6 volt Trojan thing.

Any ideas ??


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

No wonder we haven't heard from you recently...you've been one BUSY man.

Mods look great...nice work!!


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## N7OQ (Jun 10, 2006)

Wow! Nice mods you have been very busy, I'm jellous







I'm interested in the Progressive Dynamics 9260 converter. My Wfco caused noise in my TV on the lower channels and caused havoc on a lot of the Ham bands. Those panels should work very well out in the desert. I too would like to have a couple of 130 watt panels with all this California sun











Insomniak said:


> I'll have to check my notes, but I'm pretty sure the converter was pigtailed together with the water heater. Surprised me too.
> 
> Interestingly, we had a bit of a problem with batteries this past weekend out in the desert. I thought we were fully charged when I went to bed, but I woke up at 7:45 the next morning to hear the inverter beeping a low voltage warning at 11 volts. I'm pretty sure we were at 12.4 volts when I went to bed. I left the inverter on, a digital alarm clock, and an LED night light for the kids. It was fairly cold, so the furnace probably came on a few times an hour.
> 
> ...


My Converter is pig tailed with the regular outlets.

I have 2 group 29 batteries and they fit OK so group 27's will fit with no problems.


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## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

N7OQ said:


> I'll have to check my notes, but I'm pretty sure the converter was pigtailed together with the water heater. Surprised me too.
> 
> Interestingly, we had a bit of a problem with batteries this past weekend out in the desert. I thought we were fully charged when I went to bed, but I woke up at 7:45 the next morning to hear the inverter beeping a low voltage warning at 11 volts. I'm pretty sure we were at 12.4 volts when I went to bed. I left the inverter on, a digital alarm clock, and an LED night light for the kids. It was fairly cold, so the furnace probably came on a few times an hour.
> 
> ...


My Converter is pig tailed with the regular outlets.

I have 2 group 29 batteries and they fit OK so group 27's will fit with no problems.
[/quote]

Yikes....group 29? I didn't even know there was a group 29. I thought it went 27 to 31......

Yeah, I was considering the group 31's !!


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## Scrib (Jun 28, 2005)

Something is draining your batteries in a pretty big way - did you maybe not get the fridge isolated?


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Great mods!!!








I'd love to have the power monitoring capabilities. Well done.

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## shake1969 (Sep 21, 2004)

Yikes, you guys are too smart for me. But then, I don't dry camp.

Guess I'll go back to the Jokes Forum.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Considering all the electrical mods you have made your weakest point is easy to identify and it is the the batteries. Even though you do not want to do the 6 vdc Trojan thing you are not going to be happy unless you really kick the battery storage up.

I would recommend the T125 batteries a pair of those will serve you well.


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## map guy (Jan 11, 2007)

CamperAndy said:


> Considering all the electrical mods you have made your weakest point is easy to identify and it is the the batteries. Even though you do not want to do the 6 vdc Trojan thing you are not going to be happy unless you really kick the battery storage up.
> 
> I would recommend the T125 batteries a pair of those will serve you well.


CamperAndy has got it right here -you need better battery storage capacity. You are over discharging your current battery bank and it will die an early life from this condition. The Trojan or East Penn Deka 6v golf cart batteries seem to be the best bang for the buck in our application. Reasonable size/weight/cost for the Amp Hours delivered and the amount of deep discharge cycles available before the battery loses capacity to hold a charge.

IMHO going with hybrid (marine) 12v batteries will not give you the performance / discharge cycle life you are seeking for dry camping. IE group 27/29/31

Just my 2 cents here.

Map Guy


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## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

Scrib said:


> Something is draining your batteries in a pretty big way - did you maybe not get the fridge isolated?


Nope - the fridge was on propane the entire time. I think we just used too much juice with the furnace. Maybe it was coming on more than I thought.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Insomniak said:


> Something is draining your batteries in a pretty big way - did you maybe not get the fridge isolated?


Nope - the fridge was on propane the entire time. I think we just used too much juice with the furnace. Maybe it was coming on more than I thought.
[/quote]

With a full pair of group 24 batteries the furnace should not drain the batteries over night.

Is the condensate heat strip on the fridge turned off? It will eat batteries.


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## N7OQ (Jun 10, 2006)

Insomniak said:


> [
> Yikes....group 29? I didn't even know there was a group 29. I thought it went 27 to 31......
> 
> Yeah, I was considering the group 31's !!


The battery boxes I'm using will hold up to group 31 so a pair of group 31's will fit too.


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## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

CamperAndy said:


> Something is draining your batteries in a pretty big way - did you maybe not get the fridge isolated?


Nope - the fridge was on propane the entire time. I think we just used too much juice with the furnace. Maybe it was coming on more than I thought.
[/quote]

With a full pair of group 24 batteries the furnace should not drain the batteries over night.

Is the condensate heat strip on the fridge turned off? It will eat batteries.
[/quote]
Condensate strip? No clue.....

It did get down into the low 40's the two nights we were in the desert, so that also could have cut our capacity. But I've been out there with our old trailer with two group 24's in 17 degree weather and we made it through the night....

When "everything" is turned off, and the fridge is on propane, the charge controller remote panel says we're negative 0.4 amps. With the inverter on, we're at about negative 1.6 amps (or we're using 1.6 amps to phrase it a different way). That shouldn't kill the batteries. Very cool that I can see exactly how much we're drawing from the batteries at any given time. Love that charge controller!!

I think I'll check the specific gravity of the batteries, and more importantly, the manufacture date on each battery. That sneaky dealer might have tossed in an old one when I wasn't looking !!

If one battery is bad, I'll just swap them out for two group 27's. I just bought one a few weeks ago to run my telescope and haven't even used it yet. Buy one more, use one of the good group 24's for the scope and I'll be done.


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## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

N7OQ said:


> [
> Yikes....group 29? I didn't even know there was a group 29. I thought it went 27 to 31......
> 
> Yeah, I was considering the group 31's !!


The battery boxes I'm using will hold up to group 31 so a pair of group 31's will fit too.
[/quote]
The group 31's at West Marine are only 105 amp-hours and cost $165.00 YIKES !!!

The group 27's at Costco are 115 amp-hours and cost $60 or $70 bucks.

How does THAT work??


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## map guy (Jan 11, 2007)

Insomniak said:


> [
> Yikes....group 29? I didn't even know there was a group 29. I thought it went 27 to 31......
> 
> Yeah, I was considering the group 31's !!


The battery boxes I'm using will hold up to group 31 so a pair of group 31's will fit too.
[/quote]
The group 31's at West Marine are only 105 amp-hours and cost $165.00 YIKES !!!

The group 27's at Costco are 115 amp-hours and cost $60 or $70 bucks.

How does THAT work??
[/quote]

The group 27's at Costco are hybrid marine batteries manufactured by Johnson Controls and private labeled. My dear mothers MH has the Costco 27's and the performance is ok. As long as you don't deeply discharge them. The 31's at West Marine could have been gel or AGM marine batteries based on the price tag. AGM batteries are totally sealed and can be put in a closed compartment without ventilation. Normal batteries /low maintenance batteries like the Costco 27's outgas during charging requiring ventilation. There are more differences between all the battery types, including the ability to sustain deep discharge cycles. I suggest you do some research on battery types. This link has a lot of information

Link

on the three main types of batteries we us in RV and marine applications.

Hope you get the issues handled quickly and get back to camping!

Map Guy


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## MJRey (Jan 21, 2005)

Cool setup but with that much charging and potential inverter usage you really need to get the battery capacity to match the rest of the system. The dual 6volt is a great setup for and either the T-105 or T-125s will work very well with your system. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to go with the dual 6 volts but they are easy to hookup and you definitely have the necessary skills. I know people with 2-12s or 2-6s and even with similar amp-hour ratings the 6 volt setups seem to do better. Even with small batteries you should be able to get more than one night out of the batteries.


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

One last note. On my dual 6v Trojans we have dry camped for 3 nights with fairly heavy furnace useage and not run out of power. This combined with running the interior lights and water pump. We don't have a generator and don't recharge. The golf cart batts just get us through about 4 days and 3 nights without any trouble.

You definately need more storage as others have said. It's your achillies heel in an otherwise awsome system.


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## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

map guy said:


> Cool setup but with that much charging and potential inverter usage you really need to get the battery capacity to match the rest of the system. The dual 6volt is a great setup for and either the T-105 or T-125s will work very well with your system. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to go with the dual 6 volts but they are easy to hookup and you definitely have the necessary skills. I know people with 2-12s or 2-6s and even with similar amp-hour ratings the 6 volt setups seem to do better. Even with small batteries you should be able to get more than one night out of the batteries.


My black cloud follows me around pretty tenaciously. I'll be the one in a hundred thousand that will have the weird reaction to a medication, or the person who has one of their six volt batteries crap out in the middle of nowhere and be left with no lights and no trailer brakes in an emergency breakaway !!

I've learned not to mess with fate during my years !!


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Insomniak said:


> My black cloud follows me around pretty tenaciously. I'll be the one in a hundred thousand that will have the weird reaction to a medication, or the person who has one of their six volt batteries crap out in the middle of nowhere and be left with no lights and no trailer brakes in an emergency breakaway !!
> 
> I've learned not to mess with fate during my years !!


Man you got to relax on that. You have 1000 times more awareness of what is going on in your electrical system then the average guy and you would not be caught out. The chances of a cell going bad in a 6 vdc battery is the same for it going bad in a 12 vdc battery and even with a dead cell the remaining cells would support the trailer brakes in a breakaway situation.


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## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

Ok, I may give into the 6 volt crowd....but not just yet! I had an interesting experience today looking for batteries when I wasn't arguing with the service manager where my car is being "worked" on.

I went by the local RV store to pick up some stuff, and I got into a discussion about batteries with them. Told them what happened a couple weeks ago, and they were fairly certain I just don't have enough capacity, and the furnace probably did us in.

Tossed around 6 volt vs. 12 volt with them and they said that they have far more warranty problems with 6 volt than 12 volt batteries. Don't know why. I let them talk me into a pair of Interstate group 27 marine / deep cycle batteries. Paid for them, got 'em home and tried to figure out how many amp-hours they were. Called the dealer who told me 105 amp-hours. Checked the Interstate web site and all they list is cranking amps and reserve capacity. Called the company and was told the group 27 batteries are 88 amp-hours. The group 24 batteries I've been using are 81 amp-hours. Huh ?? She also told me that their 6 volt batteries are 225 amp-hours, but you "really have to watch the water in them - that's why they only come with a 6 month guarantee". Ugh...

Took the Interstates back to the dealer and went to Costco to get another group 27 battery that says it has 115 amp-hours to mate up with the new one I already had.

No idea what the difference is, but before I returned the Interstate batteries, I weighed them and the Johnson Controls / Costco group 27 weighs six pounds more. Extra lead?

Checked the specific gravity in my "old" Interstate group 24's and the cells were all in the 1.25 to 1.3 range -fair to good condition.

I'll see how the Costco batteries work out, and may end up with some 6 volt version in the future. One thing that really swayed me was that my inverter cables are only long enough to make it to the passenger side battery, so I'd have to put in a binding post with an extension cable in a 6 volt setup. Too much work & I'm tired !!!


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

Insomniak,

East Penn (Deka) does make true deep cell 12V and they likely get you where you want to be.

Your just another in a long line burned by Interstate and they really stink. I'm kind of with you I'm just not a 6V guy . If the Costco's don't work go with the Deka's.


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## MattS (Oct 15, 2006)

NJMikeC said:


> Your just another in a long line burned by Interstate and they really stink.


I have Interstate batteries and I've never had a problem. What should I look for?


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## Burnzy (Jan 22, 2007)

Wow...really nice set up you have there.

Lookin good, wish I had the time to do all of that.

Take Care,

Scott


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

Matt,

I just had real quick drain down rates. If I left my trailer with battery connected but everthing else off except of course thePropane alarm it was gone in 1 1/2 weeks. I had 2 Interstates for my boat trolling motor. They are both gone and the Delco that is older then each of them is still around. I noticed that when hooked up to the trolling motor the Interstates had 2/3rds the life of the Delco and both were 24's. The Deka in my 5'er last maybe 3 weeks.

Mike C


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## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

NJMikeC said:


> Insomniak,
> 
> East Penn (Deka) does make true deep cell 12V and they likely get you where you want to be.
> 
> Your just another in a long line burned by Interstate and they really stink. I'm kind of with you I'm just not a 6V guy . If the Costco's don't work go with the Deka's.


I always thought Interstate's were pretty good batteries. They're sold everywhere - Camping World, RV dealers, etc. The Costco 24's on our other trailer so far have performed very well.

One would think that if the Interstate's were really that bad, you wouldn't see many of them. Then again, there are a lot of Ford's on the road too !!


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## Thor (Apr 7, 2004)

Awesome job. Puts my solar conversion to shame.
























Thor


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## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

One thing I did forget to mention is that I kept the solar panels portable, but I'm not sure that's the best way to go. When we were out in the desert, I could move them around for the best exposure to the sun - but then the wind came up! The panels are almost 2 feet x 5 feet and even though I had them on the other side of the trailer from the wind, one of them still got knocked over. Fortunately it survived.

Any ideas, other than mounting them on the roof, or is that the best way to go? I know there are mounts that allow you to tilt the panels somewhat, but if a good gust of wind gets behind it, will I end up with a roof opened like a can of tuna?


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## map guy (Jan 11, 2007)

Insomniak said:


> Insomniak,
> 
> East Penn (Deka) does make true deep cell 12V and they likely get you where you want to be.
> 
> Your just another in a long line burned by Interstate and they really stink. I'm kind of with you I'm just not a 6V guy . If the Costco's don't work go with the Deka's.


I always thought Interstate's were pretty good batteries. They're sold everywhere - Camping World, RV dealers, etc. The Costco 24's on our other trailer so far have performed very well.

One would think that if the Interstate's were really that bad, you wouldn't see many of them. Then again, there are a lot of Ford's on the road too !!















[/quote]

Interstate brand starting batteries are ok but their offerings in the marine/hybrid and or true deep cycle leave a bit to desire IMHO. You see interstate batteries everywhere because just about any business can be set up on a consignment basis without inventory investment. Pay as you sell! They have good "hot shot" service, too in most populated areas. Makes it very attractive to sell their product. The East Penn Deka, Trojan, Surette, Lifeline brands are not as liberal in the consignment arena so it takes an investment to stock these products- for the small business - aka the resort at the lake - this is a killer. 
Hope this gives you some insight on why some brans are more visible than others. Personally, if 6v is not in your plans - I would look seriously at the Deka if the costco 27's don't work out. East Penn Where to buy link
East Penn

Map Guy


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