# Unsafe Combinations



## Airboss (Jul 14, 2007)

In light of the recent post Overweight Trailer Caused Fatal Crash, I wanted to start a discussion on dealer responsibilities when selling unsafe set-ups.

It is my opinion that RV dealers should be held liable for not educating consumers on what is a safe combination. I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't sell something to a consumer that insists on buying any TT/5er that they want, but they need to, at the very least, discuss with the purchaser on what is unsafe and what the ramifications may be. For example, a Land Rover LR3 may be able to tow 7700#, but that doesn't mean that you will be within your GVWR, GCVWR, tongue weights, etc. Not to mention that a 26' travel trailer (for example) wouldn't be safe to tow even if all those weights were within limit - it's just too long to be safe! Dealers need to educate their customers and then let them decide. Not everyone has the foresight to do the research before buying because the automobile manufacturers have us convinced that towing capacity is the only factor to consider. We need to do away with RV dealers saying "That thing will tow any trailer on the lot, no problem!"

Yesterday, I saw a set-up in my neighborhood that even my DW said "That doesn't look right to me." It was a SRW F250 hooked up to a VERY large tri-axle 5th wheel toy hauler. There wasn't even anyone in the truck and there was so much weight in the bed that the front of the truck was at least 6" higher than the rear and you could even see the rear tires bulging a little. I can't imaging how much that thing weighed, but I'm betting that it's at least 150% of GCVWR.

Now I know that a lot of people buy their rigs privately and there is no way to ensure that everyone knows what's safe and what's not. _*But the dealers DO KNOW and should be educating their customers.*_

How many accidents do there need to be before things change?


----------



## bill_pfaff (Mar 11, 2005)

Agree 100%

I don't see why they can't come up with a chart or table that lets the consumer see what it is they are getting into when they are considering a particular TT.

Sounds like federal legislation if the industry can't police itself. Heck, I wouldn't be opposed to it being a law that the consumer must sign something as part of the closing that says they have been made aware/given the information. I signed enough papers when I closed, what's another one?

So how does one get something started in this area?


----------



## bradnjess (Mar 25, 2007)

Airboss said:


> How many accidents do there need to be before things change?


You're exactly right. If these accidents continue to become more prominant unfortunatly the change will probably come in the form of government requlations. Maybe something to the extent of a CDL, or equilivant, license for private vehicle operators towing trailers. I find it amazing that I can go down to the local Penske rental and rent a 40' flatbed with no certifications on my license, but if it were for commercial use I'd need a CDL license. I'm certainly not in favor of needing a special license to tow my tt, I just wish, like you, that everyone would be aware of their limits for their tv regarding weight and length and not ruin it for those that do. I'm not sure its right though to put this burden of education on the dealers. Car dealers arn't responsible for teaching someone how to drive a large SUV for the first time nor are motorcycle dealerships required to teach someone to ride a bike (although some do offer classes). It is ultimatly the owners responsibility to make sure they have a safe setup. Could the rv dealerships offer a class on safe towing and setup, of course, although most of them would have to take a class themselves first. I guess my point here is the burden of safety lies with the owner/operator of the tv and tt, and when things as horrible as these accidents take place we shouldn't be too quick to blame the dealership without first looking at the oversights of the operator.

Brad


----------



## Scoutr2 (Aug 21, 2006)

I agree with you 100%, Airboss. But it will likely never happen. And that's because the dealers know that if they tell their customers they need to buy a more expensive TV to pull the trailer they are considering, about half of them will back out of the deal, because they won't be able to make payments on a new trailer AND tow vehicle. And the sales people make their living moving trailers. (And they keep reminding themselves that they don't know where you are going to pull them or how far.)

We had a 2003 1500 Suburban that we used to tow our pop-ups (and a 1999 and a 1995 before that). When we bought our 29BHS, the dealer gave us that very same line, "That Suburban will pull almost anything we have on our lot." The Wilderness TT dealer told us the same thing - and the Wilderness TTs are heavier than the Outbacks.

Well, it only took four short camping trips with the Outback in tow (50 miles or less) to realize that either the salesman had no idea what he was talking about (he admitted that he didn't own a TT), or he simply told us what he thought he needed to in order to make the sale.

We traded the Suburban for a 3/4-ton Crew Cab before the next camping season started.

Don't get me wrong - we love our Outback and my DW and DD both agree that it's the best thing we've done in a long time (since we bought our 2000 Coleman Bayside - a HUGE pop-up). But instead of having just the extra payment on the Outback, we now have another for our new truck. We can afford that, but I might have considered a smaller model, had I known then what I know now. I never even considered trailer length as a factor, and the salesman never even mentioned that! I was too ignorant of all the factors involved in safely towing a trailer that large. I knew it would be a challenge, but had NO idea just how much!

I'm sure that dealers take the attitude that it is the buyer's responsibility to provide a safe tow vehicle and that they are not the TV police! (Speaking of which - the other day I observed two Peoria County Deputy Sherriffs - in uniform - towing a L-O-N-G goose-neck horse trailer with two horses and tack on board - in the rain - with an extended cab Ford F-150 as the TV! The rear of that truck was probably six inches lower than the front and the rear tires were bulging badly. Even the police are clueless!)

Just my ranting and rambling.

Mike


----------



## 1jeep (Jul 24, 2007)

I dont think it is only the combinations, but also the people driving as though they have nothing behind them. I cant count the amount of times that ive been passed by another trailer as though i was going backwards when i reality i was doing about 60mph. It isnt that i cant go 70mph, but more along the line of knowing thta puts my family at risk as the stopping distance and vehicle control begins to deteriorate.

Additionally i do think a lot more dealers are watching what they do, last weekend my brother in-law bought a 30' outback. When i showed up to do the paper work he was still driving his dakota and the dealer told him straight out he couldnt take the trailer with that truck...they didnt realize he had just bought a full size truck capable of towing 8600lbs. It was good to see them at least act concerned.


----------



## webeopelas (Mar 11, 2006)

I would be happy with having accurate weight stickers. Each trailer should be weighed after assembly with all factory installed options. It just compounds the problem when someone is overweight because they didn't know any better and then they are even more overweight because the weights in the brochure are off by 30% or more.


----------



## justinsnow0 (Feb 5, 2007)

I agree that it would be good for a dealer to do that, but ignorance of the law is not a defense. It's a buyers responsibility to find out what the law is about appropriate weight. That being said though, a dealer could make it easier for all of their customers by teaching them there.


----------



## justinsnow0 (Feb 5, 2007)

webeopelas said:


> I would be happy with having accurate weight stickers. Each trailer should be weighed after assembly with all factory installed options. It just compounds the problem when someone is overweight because they didn't know any better and then they are even more overweight because the weights in the brochure are off by 30% or more.


This is something that should definitly change. You are absolutly right.


----------



## Acadia Hiker (May 29, 2007)

Some of the setups in the CG in the Adirondacks last week scared the heck out of me and I wasn't even driving them. One family in the next row over had a 21 foot TT being pulled by a Toyota Sienna. I have a Sienna and the tow rating is 3500 lb. with the tow package. It bogged down and was not level with our 2000 Coleman Utah pop-up. I saw so many nose down trailers/nose up TVs on the road I couldn't beleive it.


----------



## Mgonzo2u (Aug 3, 2004)

100% of responsibility and education on this topic falls on the consumer.

I wish people would quit looking to pass the buck of responsibility to someone else. Be accountable for your own responsibilities and everything will fall into place for you and everyone else around you.

/raging pet peeve regarding people passing the buck on personal responsibility


----------



## MaeJae (May 12, 2005)

Where would one educate themselves?

RV dealer?
Car dealer?
On line?
Library?
Barns & Nobel?
Seller of a "used" TT?
Brother?
Uncle?
Pops?
How many months or years do you spend educating
yourself on a purchase you would like to enjoy now?

If someone tells you, you can and so does another? well...









My truck is strong enough... but no one mentioned
wheelbase??? I didn't read anything on that???









What am I supposed to do?

The only clear solution is everyone MUST be told about:
OUTBACKERS!!!!!! (not trying to make lite of a serious issue!)

Just how am I to educate myself and how long should I spend doing so?
MaeJae

Edit:
I have educated myself... Everthing I have read and everything I have been told
says DON'T do it! I decide to do it anyway... This set-up "seems" fine!
Everyone is just over reacting... get into an accident... My fault!
Sad, but still my fault!

PDX has several good points. But still, as I stated originally
Where do I go to educate myself?


----------



## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Boy, this is a tough one...

I will agree wholeheartedly that there are unscrupulous dealers out there advising their customers that they are good to go - when they are not - all in the name of making the sale. When it comes down to it though, just like with the pilot of a plane or the skipper of a boat, ultimately it is the drivers responsibility to assure he/she is operating their vehicle in a safe manner.

The problem I see with making the dealer - or for that matter the manufacturer (TV and/or TT) - responsible is that there are so many variables out of their control. And once you put the onus of responsibility on the dealer, you open them up for all kinds of liabilities that even the most responsible and well-intentioned dealer can't guaranty.

Under such a mandate, you are expecting the RV dealer to be well versed on the capability of every tow vehicle on the road. To know all the appropriate specifications and limitations of a product they do not even sell themselves. I'm not sure it's realistic to expect that kind of knowledge, or ask that they accept that kind of responsibility.

So, maybe we make the manufacturer of the tow vehicle responsible. After all, they are the ones that say you can tow X amount with their vehicle. But, of course, towing a 6,000# boat vs. a 6,000" travel trailer vs. a 6,000# utility trailer is not the same thing. So, would Ford or GM be expected to test and document the capabilities of every one of their vehicles against every possible unit that might be towed or hauled by their rig? Probably not practical.

Okay, let's make the RV manufacturer responsible... I wonder what our Outbacks would cost if Keystone had to certify the acceptability (or not) of every possible tow vehicle, of every model year, in every possible equipment configuration for each of their coaches. What a nightmare that would be!

And we have not yet even started to talk about how the consumer is going to use their trailer once everybody else is liable for it's safety. How much is the operator going to load into it, and how conscious are they going to be of considering things like balance. Sure, my 28RSDS may have about a 1,800# payload capacity, but if I put all that 1,800# in the very back of the trailer, is it still safe? If I do so and crash, was Keystone negligent in claiming I could carry 1,800#? Was I misled, or deceived? Or... was I the one that was irresponsible/negligent and thus responsible/liable?

And do any of these parties (Dealer, TV and/or TT manufacturer) have any responsibility to make sure we the operators are competent to be pulling that trailer in the first place? No matter how capable our TV's are? When an elderly customer, that can barely walk - much less see or hear - comes into a dealership and drops a couple hundred grand on the salesman's desk for that shiny new forty foot Class 'A', should the dealer be liable for that situation? Is the dealer responsible for guarantying that the operator is capable and competent? And what's the difference between the dealer sending that guy out on to the road and sending another out with a trailer that may be too big for their rig?

Considering all of that, I can't imagine what kind of insurance premiums the industry would be looking at in order to protect themselves from the inevitable lawsuits that would follow if there was an accident. In much the same way that product liability costs very nearly killed the general aviation industry back in the '80's, the same could happen to the RV industry under such controls. It is said that something like 80% of the cost of a new private plane is the cost to the manufacturer for liability coverage over the life of the aircraft (That 80% number may be wrong, but it is something very close to that). So, a plane that in the old days might have cost you about $100,000, will now set you back $500,000. Not because of inflation... Because Cessna will be forking out $400,000 to cover themselves in case I try to fly my buddy under the Golden Gate bridge and miss! I wonder if I would still be a happy Outbacker if I had to pay a similar premium for my TT?

Probably not.

So, again, as frustrating as it is to hear of dealers misleading customers on what they are capable of towing, when it comes down to it, IMHO, I think the real answer lies in two simple words...

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Happy Trails,
Doug


----------



## jdpm (Apr 12, 2007)

OK. What ever happened to buyer beware and taking responsibility??? It is VERY unfortunate that tragic situations happen, however, consumers need to be educated in their choices before taking the leap. It is no new news that any salesperson is out to close a deal. Especially today, when very often the salesperson is selling whatever with very little knowledge - just to pay the bills. Often it is at the REAL expense of the purchaser. I have never owned any vehicle in which the owners manual AND the new vehicle product brochure does not disclose the towing/carrying capacites. Nor have I ever seen any rv brochures that do not disclose the GVW and GVWR along with the fine print explaing the two tems. Ultimately, it is up to the consumer to be educated and responsible for their purchases and actions. I'm sick and tired of our society placing blame on someone else when things don't go their way. Despite the the mismatched rig, experience and other factors such a distractions, anger, lack of rest, etc., often play a roll in accidents. I certainly feel very sorry for he family and the parentless children but I don't lets not turn this into another finger pointing exercie. Safe travels. PCM


----------



## Airboss (Jul 14, 2007)

Once again Doug, your insights have proven to be most thoughtful. I do agree that anyone that hooks up a trailer to their vehicle should be (and is) personally responsible for their actions.

But I digress. All I am suggesting is that the dealers offer some type of education to the consumer and to stop suggesting "That'll pull anything!"

My original intent of the post was to start a _discussion_ on the matter and, after seriously considering some of the opinions offered, I may have changed my view slightly. I did not intend to make anyone angry over the matter. My apologies to anyone that took offense.


----------



## bradnjess (Mar 25, 2007)

Airboss said:


> I did not intend to make anyone angry over the matter. My apologies to anyone that took offense.


No anger or offense over here, just a good topic that we should all talk about more often. Thanks for starting the conversation.

Brad


----------



## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

Personal responsibility

There are enough laws and quite honestly, if a trooper sees an unsafe combination, he can deal with it now.

Sorta like if DMV does not mail you your registration renewal and it expires, the cop will still issue a summons because it is your responsibility to check.


----------



## LarryTheOutback (Jun 15, 2005)

I agree, personal responsibility. HOWEVER in order for this to work consumers need to have accurate information in order to make an informed decision.

For example: It's my responsibility to buy a consumer loan that I can repay. There are laws that require a certain standard of disclosure about the loan and _after that_ it is buyer beware. (Let's not start an off-topic discussion on the mortgage crisis, please; think rather "credit card" or "auto" loan disclosure with the APR and terms clearly listed; at least the disclosures of 15 years ago 

For example, when I want to buy a new appliance I am provided with a standard card that describes the energy use of each appliance. I can choose to purchase a more energy efficient appliance or not, but at least I have the information to go on. I can't complain later that the new fridge is responsible for 1/2 of my energy use.

When I buy a receiver, ball mount and ball I am provided with specific information on the weights the devices are intended to support. I can choose to purchase a smaller or larger class hitch; buyer beware.​
What is missing in the RV industry is accurate AND SUFFICIENT information. Given information, consumers can make intelligent decision. Consumers need:

*Trailer: *
Accurate weight as discussed earlier
Accurate tongue weight
Minimum wheelbase tow vehicle
Type of weight distribution required (if any)
Type of sway control required (perhaps sway control needs to be classified in the same way receivers, ball mounts and balls are; type A, type B, type C)

*Tow Vehicle*
Maximum trailer length for this vehicle.
Maximum trailer length with each type of sway control (e.g. maximum 25' with friction sway control; maximum 32' with dual-cam/equalizer, etc).
Accurate weight and towing information for a fully loaded vehicle not stripped with no driver.
The alphabet soup of GCVW, etc is certainly an accurate way to match the correct trailer to the tow vehicle, but perhaps a simpler approach could be taken. A particular TV could be said to be able to tow a "Class A" trailer, or a "Class B" trailer. The different classes would require a certain type of hitch, weight distribution and sway control. The class of all the equipment would be imprinted in the TV, TT, WD and Sway Control the same way the hitch class is imprinted on the receiver, hitch mount and ball. Thus, an officer can pull you over and EASILY determine that you are within or outside the law.

_*When you get an easy to understand system, consumers will rule the day and will make the right decision.*_

Thanks for starting this thread. The discussion is great.

Ed


----------



## timewizard (Jun 9, 2007)

I think common sense is a major part of this topic. In WI we have no helmut law for motorcycles. Would I ever drive a cycle without one? Never! WI is the home of Harley so no laws. A guy was riding his cycle on I43 outside of Green Bay late one night last year hit a deer caused him to crash he had no helmut and was laying in the road a semi came along and ran him over. It is a very sad reality of bad things that can happen. Who is at fault there? Didn't anyone tell him it was unsafe to ride his cycle at night, and without a helmut? They said with a helmut he my have had a chance to move off the road but at 65+mph I'm not so sure he survived the first hit. But that is the typical response to cycle crashes with fatalities. People are educated in motorcycle safety they have to take a course to get a license. 
People drink and drive all the time they don't take into consideration others. My DH and I drive the night shift 4PM to 4AM we see it all the time. You can't tell me these people aren't educated in the dangers of drinking and driving so educating people isn't always the answer. 
It is a reality we face everyday there are a lot of people with no common sense and you just hope that they don't crash around you and your rig. Driving is my job and and I wish there was a towing (rule book) but that is why there are forums like this one to keep people informed. It makes you really think about the possible culprits for people stupidity.








I loved all the responses. Great topic!
Alicia


----------



## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

A couple more thoughts bouncing around my head on this...

First, to Airboss... No offense or anger taken here. As a matter of fact, I think discussions on topics like this are as valid and valuable as anything we can do here. Keep 'em coming!

Second, in my earlier post I painted a scenario with a pretty wide brush. My suggestions of what a dealer would be required to do or know was maybe extreme. In reality, there is such a thing as common sense, and I think most any dealer or salesman - having been in the business for years - probably can tell just with a glance whether a particular TV is appropriate or not. In those cases, I strongly believe that they have a moral and ethical responsibility to speak up, and in no uncertain terms. Should they refuse the sale? Maybe not. But wouldn't it be refreshing if they did!

No, the problem I have is the environment that is created if the dealers responsibility or liability becomes law. Once that happens, nobody is going to accept common sense or 'tribal knowledge' as a valid basis anymore. Not the courts, and not the insurance companies. In that environment, you create a situation where accountability and track-ability are prerequisite. The dealer must have hard information to point to. And then you get into the kind of situation like I was describing earlier.

I propose, that as consumers, we hold the dealers and manufacturers feet to the fire on the subject of honest customer relations. But to make it law would be a mistake.

Finally on Ed's (LarryTheOutback) idea about simplifying the process by standardizing the process with a rating system, I like the idea. It would be pretty cool if all things towing related - on a consumer level - be categorized. If I have a Type 'B' tow vehicle with a Type 'B' hitch, I am safe to tow a Type 'B' trailer. By the same token, if I'm at the RV show, and see a new Outback that I just can't live without, I can look at the Type 'C' rating on it, and know that I need to have at least a Type 'C' rated tow vehicle and a Type 'C' or better hitch. If you do that, you know you have a combination that takes everything you need to be concerned about into account. Weight, size, windage, etc. What could be simpler than that?

The only problem I see with it, is that by definition as a simple method, you would practically be limited to four or five type ratings, tops. Any more than that and the system would start to get too complicated (what it's trying to avoid). The thing is, if you only have some five ratings to cover everything from the smallest pop-up to the largest toy hauler or horse trailer, each type rating has to be very broad in scope.

The reality is that many combinations that would be totally safe and appropriate, yet would be deemed unsafe, simply because they lie near the limits of one parameter or another. For example, I may have a truck that is very capable in all other ways, but has a short wheelbase so it gets, say a Type 'B' rating instead of a Type 'C'. Now I have a trailer that is also short, but heavy enough that it is rated as a Type 'C' instead of a Type 'B'. In this case, the combo could be very suitable. The truck is easily capable of handling both the weight and the length of the trailer, but because of different type ratings, it would be considered to be a bad choice. I guess I could ignore the ratings at this point, because I know better. But if we do that, whats the point of the ratings...

Sure do like the idea though. Maybe if we put our collective years of Outbackers wisdom and experience together, we can figure out a system that would at once be effective and simple.

Anybody got any ideas?









Happy Trails,
Doug


----------



## shaela21 (Aug 16, 2005)

I personally agree with you 100%. I think that the dealership should be somewhat responsible for the rigs that they sell ensuring that the vehicle that their customer is towing with meets the TV requirements. It is quite simple to plug in some numbers about the TV into a computer and all make sure that it is above the GVWR of the trailer. Also, they should ensure that the TV is properly set up for towing. I have 2 stories about this:

I was towing a tent trailer with a minivan, tow rating of 3500 pounds. I had a salesman in Sidney BC tell me that I can tow a hybrid trailer with my van as the dry weight of the trailer was only 2800 pounds. I walked off the lot.

I was going to looking to buy a trailer from a dealership with my truck. The weights were all correct. I told the salesman that I did not have a WDH, can i just tow the trailer off the bumper home (about 250 km, part of which was over a mountain). He said that should be okay. This was a 26 foot trailer with a dry weight of over 5000 pounds. Again, I walked off the lot.

Now saying this, there has to be some responsiblility on the buyer to do his/her homework, know the numbers of his truck (GVWR, Tow rating, payload) and then buy a trailer that can be safely towed with this vehicle. But quite often I have seen couples walk onto a RV lot and the salesmen see $$$$ and will sell anything to them. They quote dry weights hoping that someone will believe them and take the trailer home. There has to be a compromise: educate the salesmen and hold them liable, and educate the buyers to know what they are buying and will it be safe.

This is one of my pet peeves and I truly wish that there was some legislation on this, but there is not. I wish I could set up camp outside a few dealerships and tell people who are looking to buy the truth on towing. A few weeks ago i saw a Ford Escape towing a 22 foot trailer over the mountain, and I just shook my head. You could tell the poor vehicle was maxed out, and I was thankful that I did not have to hear about it on the news that evening.


----------



## Scoutr2 (Aug 21, 2006)

This is GREAT stuff! I love a good debate and discussion. And most foks here can learn a lot just by reading what has been posted so far. Heck, this place is where I got my education on towing - that, and experience.

And I think a rating system is a great idea, unless it morphs into something that can hurt the consumer. Call me a pessimist, if you will, but I can see all sorts of "opt outs" for insurance companies, liability claims, and personal responsibility (well, the ratings said I could pull this thing). I say, create a system that the common, unitiated person can understand, and then let them make their own decisions. I'm with most of you - we have enough un-enforceable laws these days to regulate our every move. (We have a new law in Illinois that says youth drivers under the age of 18 may not talk on a cell phone while driving. Except for very small towns, how the heck does a cop know the age of that cute little blonde that just zipped by, yakking up a storm? But I digress!)

What we REALLY need are industry standards for both RVs and TVs AND a rating system to help us make sound decisions.

I think back to when we were waiting for our Outback to be built and one of my co-workers (I'll call him CW) wanted to buy our Coleman Bayside pop-up. (It weighs in at 2800# dry - two king beds and dinette slideout). He and his wife (both large people) and his three kids (ages 5-9) climbed out of an aging Ford mini-van and they all fell in love with the pop-up. They went home to discuss, and talking about a 5000 mile vacation next year to Yellowstone.

The next day I talked to CW and said, "Um, I'm not sure that your van will be up to the task of towing a 3000#+ trailer and hauling all five of you and your stuff for that distance - up and down mountains . . . " "You may want to upgrade your TV if you are planning any long trips. You have 160,000 miles on the old mini-van, and the transmission was replaced after the first 80,000. Whay don't you check with your Ford dealer and see what they think."

Sure enough, his cousin, a Ford dealer, gave him the same advice I had given him. Well, CW couldn't afford to upgrade and so they made the decision that it wasn't meant to be - yet. I wound up selling the pop-up for several hundred dollars less than CW was willing to pay, but 2 years later, CW still has the aging mini-van.

That's the way it should work! The RV seller AND the TV dealer giving the right information, and the prospective buyer making a sound, informed decision!

And I like that idea that was just floated out - maybe Outbackers.com can force the industries to police themselves and help the consumer make good choices.

Mike


----------



## LarryTheOutback (Jun 15, 2005)

PDX_Doug said:


> Finally on Ed's (LarryTheOutback) idea about simplifying the process by standardizing the process with a rating system, I like the idea. <snip> The only problem I see with it, is that by definition as a simple method, you would practically be limited to four or five type ratings, tops. <snip> each type rating has to be very broad in scope.


Perhaps you would need to have a multi-part rating. By having the criteria somewhat disconnected from each other you may be able to keep some simplicity while being more flexible.

For example, "This trailer can only be towed by a vehicle with a Type-2 weight rating or better, a Type-3 wheelbase or longer, Type-7 Tires or higher..." and "This vehicle can tow a trailer with a Type 4 length or shorter, Type 3 Wind Surface Area or lower; if you add a Type 5 sway control you can tow up to a Type 4 Wind Surface Area". I don't think we can get to something as simple as a fire extinguisher rating, but that's an example of a multi-part rating.

Before hitching up you might see a label on the receiver that you can compare to a label on the trailer to quickly determine if it is safe to tow that particular trailer with that particular vehicle.

Ed


----------



## Fiver Roos (Jun 25, 2008)

I know I am new here, but I want to relate my experience. My DH and I just purchased a 31 kfw and we have an F250 with air suspension. When I called the dealer looking for my outback, I expressed that even though the book says I can tow 14K pounds with a fifth wheel, I want to be less than 9K dry. I know from experience that the weight the auto manufacturers give are not accurate. example: Our last Suburban was to tow 8000 lbs and our trailer weighed in at 5000. That suburban could barely tow it and we would never take it to the mountains. So we bought the F250 so we could pull easier. Before that trailer, we had a Dodge Ram and another 5000 lb trailer that my husband made it only to the four corners area before the Ram couldn't pull anymore without extreme stress. That being said, he turned around and came home early. All these vehicles were within the tow capacity. All had WDH and Sway control.

When we just signed our papers for the Outback, we had to sign a release saying our TV could tow X amount of pounds and that the trailer we were buying weighed X amount of pounds. This large dealer was covering their liability. I will say that they offer driving lessons and all kinds of education which is great.

One last point, when my husband bought his motorcycle and had never riden before we had the dealer deliver it to our house and put it in the garage. We went through motorcycle school and passed. Then my husband could take out his bike. Personal Responsibility goes a long way.

Remember, keep it safe out there, always watch all around you, and leave enough room to stop.


----------



## justinsnow0 (Feb 5, 2007)

Another idea I think may be good is if a dealer weighed your trailer, then your TV with TT, etc.... When you take delivery. At least then you have a starting point to work with. If nothing else, it would be a good addition of services that may convince me to buy from them over another dealer.


----------



## MJRey (Jan 21, 2005)

We just got back from a long trip, 2800 miles without the Outback, and I saw at least a dozen badly matched tow combinations. Usually it was a small SUV like one where we saw an Izusu Rodeo pulling a 25ft travel trailer. He might have been within his tow rating but that truck looked tiny in front of the trailer. I think dealers telling people they can pull something that's too much for their vehicle is only one part of the problem. There are also a lot of people that just don't want to hear that their tow vehicle may be inadequate for the trailer they want or already have. Even here where it's a pretty friendly group I've found that you have to be careful when discussing the towing abilities of vehicles. I wish there was a simple way to ensure safe towing but there are so many variables that there probably isn't a foolproof way to make sure everyone has a safe setup. Now I just try and point out that when looking at what you can tow you have to check ALL of the vehicle specifications and stay within ALL of them. The key ones are Tow Rating, Payload Capacity, GVWR, GCWR, and possibly GAWR. If you can stay within those numbers then you can look at other things like tow vehicle wheelbase and trailer length.


----------



## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

bill_pfaff said:


> Agree 100%
> 
> I don't see why they can't come up with a chart or table that lets the consumer see what it is they are getting into when they are considering a particular TT.
> 
> ...


Here ya go, Bill - charts and tables.

<<http://www.rvtowingtips.com/how-long.htm>>

"What we REALLY need are industry standards for both RVs and TVs AND a rating system to help us make sound decisions."

A lot of excellent ideas floating through here. Like Ed said, we could start with honest weights - that would help a lot.

Sluggo


----------



## renegade21rs (Oct 8, 2006)

Just my .02

I tow my 21rs with my 2005 F-150.

I am okay towing with it in my part of the country.

I probably would NOT be as comfortable if I were in the mountains.


----------



## N7OQ (Jun 10, 2006)

I think we are a society that always want to put the blame on someone else and always wants to sue someone for something that is their fault. A bunch of sue happy people. I think the whole blame goes on the driver period. I do think there should be a federal law that sets when trailer brakes are needed and the max speed anyone in the US can drive pulling a trailer like 60 mph or less. I too have been passed by idiots pulling trailers at speeds that make me look like I'm standing still. People need to take responsibly for their actions and quit trying to blame someone else.


----------



## freefaller25 (Mar 19, 2006)

I believe it is the vehicle operator's responsibility in every case. Any other liability would have to be determined by a court in some extreme case. I don't believe we need any new RV trailer combination liability laws in this country.

A few points just for interest from the laws I drove under when we were residents of Germany. I hope I remember everything correctly:
-	Your insurance company will not pay completely or at all of you are out of specified limits on your combination.
-	There are investigation crews that can be used to determine if any crash (trailer or not) was speed related. If yes, the insurance company does not pay completely or at all.
-	As far as I know there are no liability laws for someone who sells a trailer that creates and out of specification combination.
-	Cars with trailers must obey an 80kph speed limit. If you want to go faster, in some cases you can have your rig specially certified for higher speed 
-	There are strict laws about trailer weights, brakes, and sizes
-	There are driver's license endorsements needed specifically for trailer use which require training at a driving school. I have a class A B BE M L License for Germany and trained in a German driving school for it.
-	3.5 ton is the weight limit for a normal car license
-	Driver's training and testing requirements are way beyond anything you will see in the US
-	You need a license to drive a tractor on the road (there are two classes)
-	It is legal to drive a properly equipped quad (ATV) on the Autobahn
Ok, the last two have nothing to do with it. Even with all these laws, incentives, and training; improper combinations still occur and cause losses.
Tony


----------



## bill_pfaff (Mar 11, 2005)

I appreciate the fact that people need to take responsibility for their actions and believe me I'm the last one to want more legislation however; we have all been to the various web sites that offer information on towing and we all know that there is conflicting/confusing information out there. Sluggo, I know what you what you are saying but just look at the website name "rvtowingTIPS". How is an individual supposed to take personal responsibility when the ill-defined experts can't get their act straight? Heck, I didn't even know about the websites until after I had bought my TV and joined Outbackers.com and even now I, like many others, end up coming here for expert advice simply because sometimes the information out there is so confusing I have no other recourse.

All I'm suggesting is that the industry be required to do two things (and I think it's the TT industry that would have this responsibility)

1) Come up with the minimums for a safe TT/TV combination. In order for this to happen they might have to get together with the TV people to establish some standards regarding tow capacity/hitch weights/wheel base etc. and terminology but hey, don't tell me the oil companies and car makers don't talk and have fuel standards. This would just be another cooperative effort between two organizations that have mutual interests. 
2) Communicate the minimums. Part of the closing procedure when purchasing a TT could require the dealer to inform the consumer that SAFE towing standards/minimums exist and that those standards/minimums can be gotten at/by &#8230;&#8230;&#8230; fill in as appropriate here &#8230;&#8230; We have all closed on loans and we have all had to sign disclosure statements so what would be the big deal here? All the document is doing is requiring the consumer to acknowledge the fact that the dealer "Told you so". They cold even put a stinking sticker on the door with directions on how to get the information. I've seen warning/information labels on 5 gallon buckets and mattresses which are a lot less of a safety hazard in my opinion than a 10K+ lb rig going down the road at 55 + MPH.

Now I am far from a lawyer however; I don't see how either industry (TT/TV) would be any more liable then they are now. In fact I would think they would be less liable because right now there is nothing out there that they can go back to and say "I told you so" should they be drug into court.


----------



## N7OQ (Jun 10, 2006)

I was stationed in Germany for 3 years and I can't for the life of me remember ever seeing a RV trailer, I'm sure they were there but I don't remember seeing one. The small village I lived in had a driving school down the street and I remember that to get a license you had to go to school for a long time, but if you are going to be driving 100+ MPH in a country the size of Oregon with 20 million people (this was before the wall came down, not sure how big it is now) you need to be well trained.



freefaller25 said:


> I believe it is the vehicle operator's responsibility in every case. Any other liability would have to be determined by a court in some extreme case. I don't believe we need any new RV trailer combination liability laws in this country.
> 
> A few points just for interest from the laws I drove under when we were residents of Germany. I hope I remember everything correctly:
> -	Your insurance company will not pay completely or at all of you are out of specified limits on your combination.
> ...


----------



## mandm (Mar 15, 2008)

The 21 RS is our first TT and the discussion here has been very informative regarding TT/TV, ratings and weights. The only thing I can add here is a bit of comic relief...

After on of our first few outings, we stopped at Flying J to dump...there was a line so had to wait....finally get to the station and go about business....after about 10 min (had flush king so was cleaning tank a second time)....an elderly gentleman came up to me a few campers back in the line and asked if I needed help (gee, could it have been two women at a dump station? What do you do here







)....Never mind that he had to walk past two guys in an older 2 door Ford Explorer towing a ~30 foot TT....complete with bent and totally unusable rear jacks...the the stance of the getup in a V shape because the weight was so mismatched because there was not a WDH (hitch point could not have been more than 6-8 inches off the ground)....and I was the one who needed help??


----------



## Reverie (Aug 9, 2004)

My two cents...

I seriously doubt we will ever get the RV industry to adopt a set of 'hard-and-fast' rules when it comes to towing, any more than we can get the automobile manufacturers to adopt similar, consistent rules. I am certainly not a lawyer but I would imagine it would leave them open to lots of liability.

What doesn't help is when those with the greatest knowledge about towing RVs can't come up with a set of rules themselves. We squabble and point fingers, confuse anecdotal information with fact, bias with fact and assumption with fact, passing all of it off with 'fact'. When a newbie consults the experienced he comes away with a feeling that nobody knows. We have scared people we shouldn't and enabled people we shouldn't have. Another important point is that there seems to be a correllation between the size of someone's truck and their insistence on the necessity of having bigger, longer and more powerful trucks.

It also has not helped when people have thrown around suggestions that people don't care because they don't agree. One of the reasons I have stayed away from these discussions lately is because until we come up with a rule of thumb I doubt the debate will settle.

When I am asked I tell people that no matter what, if the posted numbers (weight, tow capacity and tongue weight) are within the design specs, the ability to tow comes down to what you feel comfortable with. There are some that would never be comfortable with my setup. There are others that think I could tow longer, heavier trailers. I am comfortable with what I have and tow safe and sane. I don't try to make the rig do something it can't do. I do keep my load reasonable and my speed modest. I won't be passing any diesel duelly but I also won't be an impediment to others by going somewhere my setup can't handle.

Reverie


----------



## CautiousCamper (Jun 27, 2006)

What we can take away from this tragedy is a heightened awareness of our travels with our families in our Outbacks, how we drive with them, how important it is to have a proper tow vehicle and setup. Being members of this discussion board may be preaching to the converted. It's hard to protect against those that see no harm in a poor setup. 
My half ton truck lease is up this month. The GMC 5.3l tows the 26RS within its abilities (I've had them on the scales) but now I am shifting towards a more expensive used GMC Duramax 3/4ton crew cab to tow, even though we don't travel more than a few thousand miles per year with the trailer. 
I guess everyone sets their own limits. I tend towards overkill. What you don't want is to be less cautious or attentive because you got a big honkin tow vehicle either.
Drive Safe.


----------

