# New 324 Toyhauler And I'm A Little Disappointed In He Heat



## Cca410

Hunting in the woods and its 20 outside and my water is froze and my heat will not get the inside of the camper over about 55. Furnace runs continuously but just won't heat the place up. Is this normal for the larger campers on colder days or u guys think I may have a prob?


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## Cca410

ob277rl said:


> The reason the inside of the trailer isn't getting warm enough is the heater ducts are routed outside the trailer. The gas heater is being used to heat the inside of the trailer and the underbelly. There is no real insulation protecting the underbelly. The corrugated plastic cover enclosing this area doesn't have much of an R-rating. With all of the exposed steel I-bean not being insulated, any heat used in this area is gone in a flash. We use portable electric heaters in the trailer for heat, this both saves propane and the heat is only going inside the trailer. Without insulating the underbelly and any plumbing in this area you still need to run the heater to protect this area in extreme conditions. Here is a post on this subject I did in the past. Good Luck.
> 
> Robert
> 
> http://www.outbackers.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=36202&view=findpost&p=438554


Thanks for the fast reply. I was in a hunting stand this morning and didn't give a lot of details so I'm glad you took the time to help. Yeah it kinda stinks to buy a camper and spend that much money on something that they know doesn't work. I'm in the south so I guess this means anybody up north sure isn't camping without electricity because you'll freeze to death. I wonder why they stick the false advertising sticker on the side for artic barrier ? That was one of the selling points on mine and as soon as the temp gets below freezing my water is froze and my heat is gone. Love the camper but feel like I been took....too bad I don't live in south Florida I guess....


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## Cca410

Thanks for the info Robert. Yes it was from the onboard water supply what was froze. I'm going to check into what you mentioned and see what's up with mine. I have a family member that bought a keystone camper the same time I got mine a few weeks ago. His isn't an outback but the layout is identical. His water never froze and we checked tonight and his heat is twice as hot as mine and blows 3 times harder. Sat night it got down to 32 and I had to turn a stove eye on to keep us warm. The furnace runs continuously and never shuts off. Since Thursday I used 60lb of LP while running my eu2k to run the fridge. The local keystone dealer here wants 150 bucks to do warranty work because I didn't buy it from them. So the whole situation just stinks.


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## CamperAndy

Cca410 said:


> His isn't an outback but the layout is identical. His water never froze and we checked tonight and his heat is twice as hot as mine and blows 3 times harder. Sat night it got down to 32 and I had to turn a stove eye on to keep us warm. The furnace runs continuously and never shuts off. Since Thursday I used 60lb of LP while running my eu2k to run the fridge. The local keystone dealer here wants 150 bucks to do warranty work because I didn't buy it from them. So the whole situation just stinks.


Sounds like the duct has come loose from the furnace or duct is crushed. Gas consumption is right at a pound an hour so 60 pounds in 4 days of continuous operation sounds about right. Warranty work should not have a premium on it just because you did not buy from them unless they want to admit that they over charge local customers to make up the difference. Call Keystone and find all the local dealers that do warranty and then call for an inspection. IN the mean time inspect all the ducts to see that they are connected correctly and not crushed.


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## H2oSprayer

ob277rl said:


> 1. The first pic is of the water pump in the corner with pipe insulation on the lines.


I'm a bit perplexed by your first photo, Robert. What it looks like to me, is that you covered your city water inlet line that bypasses your pump, correct? Wouldn't doing so keep the warmer air in your camper from getting to the lines, thus aiding in their freezing?


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## Cca410

Thank you guys for all the help. I called a dealer and customer serv. The original dealer I purchased from said that's just how they are. So they seemed to think its ok for me to heat with a stove eye on my new outback. He did say for the heck of it you could have it looked at which I am going to do but just didn't want to mess up the last few weeks of hunting season. I did tell him that if they thought I was going to heat my camper with a stove eye during the winter then they could come get it and give me my check back. I checked and all the vent ducts are hooked up. I did notice the duct work isn't insulated. It's a very thin plastic hose like a dryer hose they used for this which makes no sense ... I can you it got down to 30 last night and I closed the toy hauler door and the main area in the middle got to 70 and the bedroom was 60 but the heat ran off night and never turn off for a minute. Right now I'm just pissed off...


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## CamperAndy

Running the stove top or oven for heat is a recipe for not waking up in the morning.

These are 3 season trailers and you should base your expectation on that fact. There are gas or oil operated heaters that you can bring with you to supplement the trailers furnace if you want to extend the operational envelope of the trailer.


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## Cca410

CamperAndy said:


> Running the stove top or oven for heat is a recipe for not waking up in the morning.
> 
> These are 3 season trailers and you should base your expectation on that fact. There are gas or oil operated heaters that you can bring with you to supplement the trailers furnace if you want to extend the operational envelope of the trailer.


Well Andy then they should not tell me it's built for winter camping and notate it even has an artic package for extreme cold weather camping up north. Now that I know that you can't camp in Alabama so your sure as heck not going to camp in it up north. As a matter of fact mine has a problem with 45 deg and under temps. So in certain parts of the country that single season camping.


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## Tourdfox

Cca410 said:


> Running the stove top or oven for heat is a recipe for not waking up in the morning.
> 
> These are 3 season trailers and you should base your expectation on that fact. There are gas or oil operated heaters that you can bring with you to supplement the trailers furnace if you want to extend the operational envelope of the trailer.


Well Andy then they should not tell me it's built for winter camping and notate it even has an artic package for extreme cold weather camping up north. Now that I know that you can't camp in Alabama so your sure as heck not going to camp in it up north. As a matter of fact mine has a problem with 45 deg and under temps. So in certain parts of the country that single season camping.
[/quote

It's all about marketing. I was sucked into the Artic Barrier BS also. Part of the reason why i chose an Outback. Otherwise it's a pretty nice unit.


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## CamperAndy

Cca410 said:


> Running the stove top or oven for heat is a recipe for not waking up in the morning.
> 
> These are 3 season trailers and you should base your expectation on that fact. There are gas or oil operated heaters that you can bring with you to supplement the trailers furnace if you want to extend the operational envelope of the trailer.


Well Andy then they should not tell me it's built for winter camping and notate it even has an artic package for extreme cold weather camping up north. Now that I know that you can't camp in Alabama so your sure as heck not going to camp in it up north. As a matter of fact mine has a problem with 45 deg and under temps. So in certain parts of the country that single season camping.
[/quote]

I can tell you that Idaho has significantly cooler weather than anywhere in Alabama and I can use my trailer into the 20's without issue. My first Outback trailer was a 28rss and the rear slide was a bit cold to sleep in but nothing an extra blanket could not fix. My current trailer is much larger and its only cold spot is the bathroom if the door is left closed.

Expecting these trailers to be a full 4 season camper is unrealistic for many reasons. Just as some cannot deal with cold weather performance some also are unrealistic to expect the AC unit to keep up with the heat in some parts of the south-west in July.

Anyway I digress, the jest of my first response was that open flame from the stove is unsafe and should not be used as a method of heating the trailer.


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## Oregon_Camper

CamperAndy said:


> .....and its only cold spot is the bathroom if the door is left closed.


Are you saying you didn't do the heater vent to the bathroom MOD that was so popular on this forum a year or so ago? My wife gave me HUGE "man points" for installing the heater vent to the bathroom....


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## Oregon_Camper

ob277rl said:


> My brother-in-law just bought a new Coachman 297RLDS which is a similar trailer to ours. One of the first things I noticed was is most of his heater registers come out of the sides of the cabinets. Doing this the heater ducts are routed through the cabinets and are covered up by panels at the bottom of the cabinets to allow use of the space above them. The specs for his trailer also says that the underbelly is heated to protect the pipes and tanks, but in his case not all of the heater ducts are run under the trailer floor. I personally do not like the floor registers for the heating system and most of all, their placement. I am looking at rerouting two of the three floor outlets through my base cabinets and possibly even adding an additional one. Removing the registers would leave holes in the floor, but we have decided to remove the carpet in the living area and replacing it with a new interlocking vinyl floating floor. http://www.lowes.com...ix+vinyl+plank#! Now I will be able to plug up the register holes in the middle of the floor. By relocating two of the heater ducts topside I believe the heater will be more useful. Good Luck.
> 
> Robert


Do a quick inspection of the heater and how well the ducts are attached. I was shocked by how mine were attached (or should I say somewhat attached) to the heater. Some quick fixes to the connections and I had a LOT better air flow to the vents.


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## Cca410

Is y'all's heater duct work the same thin plastic tubing as mine with no insulation? It looks like the white plastic dryer vent stuff.


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## CamperAndy

Cca410 said:


> Is y'all's heater duct work the same thin plastic tubing as mine with no insulation? It looks like the white plastic dryer vent stuff.


Mine is uninsulated sheet metal. The radiant heat from the duct is intended to keep the underbelly warm enough to minimise the potential for freezing lines and tanks. The fact it is uninsulated should not prevent the heater from providing enough heat to the trailer as long as there is enough airflow through the duct.


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## sonomaguy

Oregon_Camper said:


> .....and its only cold spot is the bathroom if the door is left closed.


Are you saying you didn't do the heater vent to the bathroom MOD that was so popular on this forum a year or so ago? My wife gave me HUGE "man points" for installing the heater vent to the bathroom....








[/quote]

And what is this mod, my bathroom is pretty cold too so I leave the door open at night, and my wife HATES that.


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## Oregon_Camper

sonomaguy said:


> .....and its only cold spot is the bathroom if the door is left closed.


Are you saying you didn't do the heater vent to the bathroom MOD that was so popular on this forum a year or so ago? My wife gave me HUGE "man points" for installing the heater vent to the bathroom....








[/quote]

And what is this mod, my bathroom is pretty cold too so I leave the door open at night, and my wife HATES that.
[/quote]

One of the best MODS I've done...HUGE wife points.









http://www.outbackers.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32402&view=&hl=bathroom%20heater%20vent&fromsearch=1


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## Robin Mast3rs

I have a new 324CG. 1 week old. Had it plugged in and running everything all week during the recent cold snap. 22 deg outside and it maintained 68 all night. Furnace kicking on every 10 minutes or so. I would say you have a problem.

Can't figure why they did not run heat into the bathroom since the furnace is right next to it. Just kept the door ajar and it stayed warm in there. I will eventually put a vent in there.


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## Cca410

Well, after a month in service and dealing with the service adviser and a rep from keystone I figured I would update everyone. My bedroom vent that you have to stick your face in to see if you feel air is normal. Their best guess is that I have heat loss in the walls. My adviser was instructed to tell me from my keystone rep that people in his area uses hay bales or mobile home underpinning to supplement heat loss when camping. So I guess I'll have to take other steps to get this corrected. 
Can you have insulation blown into the underbelly without cause problems with the plastic shield on the bottom?


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## Cca410

Robin Mast3rs said:


> I have a new 324CG. 1 week old. Had it plugged in and running everything all week during the recent cold snap. 22 deg outside and it maintained 68 all night. Furnace kicking on every 10 minutes or so. I would say you have a problem.
> 
> Can't figure why they did not run heat into the bathroom since the furnace is right next to it. Just kept the door ajar and it stayed warm in there. I will eventually put a vent in there.


Does your bedroom vent push any air? In the kind of weather you mentioned my furnace never turns off it wouldn't get above 55 to 60 max....


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## CamperAndy

Cca410 said:


> My adviser was instructed to tell me from my keystone rep that people in his area uses hay bales or mobile home underpinning to supplement heat loss when camping.


There are so many things wrong with this I just can't imagine that was an honest response to the issue.

If you are full timing in Montana then extra steps need to be taken to help prevent heat loss but hay bales????


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## CamperAndy

Cca410 said:


> I have a new 324CG. 1 week old. Had it plugged in and running everything all week during the recent cold snap. 22 deg outside and it maintained 68 all night. Furnace kicking on every 10 minutes or so. I would say you have a problem.
> 
> Can't figure why they did not run heat into the bathroom since the furnace is right next to it. Just kept the door ajar and it stayed warm in there. I will eventually put a vent in there.


Does your bedroom vent push any air? In the kind of weather you mentioned my furnace never turns off it wouldn't get above 55 to 60 max....
[/quote]

As mention before you most likely have a duct issue. You should have plenty of air flow from all your vents.


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## Cca410

As I've already mentioned we already checked that. First thing I did..
I will post the keystone reps name Tom.


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## Stumpy75

CamperAndy said:


> There are so many things wrong with this I just can't imagine that was an honest response to the issue.
> If you are full timing in Montana then extra steps need to be taken to help prevent heat loss but hay bales????


But, yes, hay bales ARE used in a lot of areas as an insulation around mobile homes. Cheap and simple, and if stacked right, they do a good job...

I agree that there is still a vent problem though.


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## CamperAndy

Stumpy75 said:


> There are so many things wrong with this I just can't imagine that was an honest response to the issue.
> If you are full timing in Montana then extra steps need to be taken to help prevent heat loss but hay bales????


But, yes, hay bales ARE used in a lot of areas as an insulation around mobile homes. Cheap and simple, and if stacked right, they do a good job...

I agree that there is still a vent problem though.
[/quote]

I can take this to any extreme, how about a pole barn to keep the rain and sun off the trailer then side the pole barn to keep the wind and cold out? Then you would have a camper in a house to enjoy!!!

These are weekend campers, expecting people to bring hay bales to help keep them warm is ridiculous. Any salesman or corporate rep should be fired for that suggestion.


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## Stumpy75

CamperAndy said:


> But, yes, hay bales ARE used in a lot of areas as an insulation around mobile homes. Cheap and simple, and if stacked right, they do a good job...
> 
> I agree that there is still a vent problem though.


I can take this to any extreme, how about a pole barn to keep the rain and sun off the trailer then side the pole barn to keep the wind and cold out? Then you would have a camper in a house to enjoy!!!

These are weekend campers, expecting people to bring hay bales to help keep them warm is ridiculous. Any salesman or corporate rep should be fired for that suggestion.
[/quote]

My camper is in storage for the winter, and I usually camp in the Great Lakes region. If I was going to winter camp on a full-time basis, I'd be taking a LOT of different steps for keeping warm. I know my camper is ok down to 20-25 degrees(as long as I disconnect the water supply and keep the furnace up at 70 degrees or so), but below that, it just doesn't measure up. In cold temperatures, there is a huge propane usage, if it will keep it warm enough at all. Putting on some type of skirting to keep the wind and cold off the bottom of the camper would be a must around here if I was going to be set up for a long time, and hay bales work good for that.

I lived in a small mobile home in Klamath Falls, OR, for a few years about 30 years ago, and what I'm explaining is what I had to do to keep from freezing that one up. That one was probably a little more insulated than my current RV though, and had a natural gas furnace that was quite a bit bigger than the one in my RV. I had heat tape on all the piping, including the sewer line. And we did use hay bales as skirting. We'd buy them in the fall and sell or give them away in the spring.

I'm just not sure our campers are made for use in temperatures below 20-25 degrees. As you said, they are weekend campers, and most people would not go out in low temperatures without taking other measures.

If Keystone had said that he would have to carry hay bales with him to weekend camp, then that's another matter all together.





















But to set up for a more extended period in the cold will take more measures.

And I also agree that somehow, there is not enough air coming from that one register. Not sure where the problem is, but there should be a very noticeable flow from it.

Below zero here again today. I'm SOOO looking forward to *spring*!


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## Cca410

Update, my camper is now one year old and out of this year it's been in the shop for seven months. Most of the sealant on the roof was not cured correctly and it's been leaked in for months while sitting at camping world and bankston rv. Keystone called me in response to my BBB complaint and told me that I didn't properly maintain my unit and this is the reason my roof was leaking and damaged. I got the unit back a few days ago and stayed in it one night. The jack legs from camping world half ass reinstalled my furnace after a repair and partially left the front of the heat exchange off. Just about burnt the thing up.. And the "on" doesn't work on the furnace just auto.. So I guess in the next couple of days it will go back to camping world again... I gave up trying to get keystone to help me. I even asked for help on their fb page and they just deleted it and didn't even contact me. I've turned it over to my attorney...


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## Tourdfox

I have removed the whole bottom off my 280 and have no duct issues. The vent closest to the bathroom sucks.


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## Grover

I have a 325FRE Sydney Outback with the Arctic Package. Yeah, right. I had to drop my underbelly for repairs and there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO insulation in the belly under the floor boards! When it was put back together, the insulation was installed. Don't trust what you think. Arctic does not mean insulated floor boards. Check it out visually.


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## Justman

Grover....what did you wind up using for insulation? Fiberglass batts or blow in?


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## Grover

Fiberglass batts were installed. It made a considerable difference in the warmth of the fifth wheel this winter.


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## Cca410

I finally had to get rid of the unit. Between the heat, ac, leaking from one end to the other and a slew of other problems the unit had to go. I now have a new 2017 outback 324... lets see how this works out.... I did have a major plumbing leak on the first weekend trip but unless it's a major failure it will not go back to the dealer for repair. I found out when it goes for repair you've lost the game, it may be there for months with no solution in sight. So on this one I'll just try and repair it myself.


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