# Electric Brakes Bad?



## rsg99 (May 23, 2006)

Hi,

I just got my new TT last week, a 30RLS and I just installed a Prodigy brake controller (Vers 2.6). The controller is indicating a short in the brake system on the trailer. When I push on the brake, I get the overload warning message. I guess I have to take the whole trailer back







, but is there some way I can test the brakes first? I did a resistance check on the trailer wire and there is a straight short to ground from the brake wire to the trailer ground on the trailer. When I crawled under the trailer, all the wires are crimped together without a plug to test each one ! Does anybody know how to test each individual wheel? What is the correct resistance from the coil pack if it is working? What is the correct resistance that should be seen at the trailer plug with all 4 wheels connected?

Help !!

Thanks,
Rob


----------



## W4DRR (May 17, 2005)

The brakes on mine (10" AL-KO) are a nominal 4 ohms each. All four in parallel would be 1 ohm. Depending on the ohmmeter you are using, the difference between 1 ohm and 0 ohm maybe hard to see.

Bob


----------



## Scrib (Jun 28, 2005)

I can't help much, but there's this on the Tekonsha site:

Q.) The Display shows "OL".

A.) The Prodigy detects an overload caused by a short to ground on the brake wire (Blue wire). The Prodigy has to have a complete circuit from the control to the brake magnets to the ground and has to have the proper resistance.

Possible Causes:
Â· Short to ground on the brake circuit wire.
Â· Trailer has electric over hydraulic brakes.
Â· Faulty control.


----------



## rsg99 (May 23, 2006)

W4DRR said:


> The brakes on mine (10" AL-KO) are a nominal 4 ohms each. All four in parallel would be 1 ohm. Depending on the ohmmeter you are using, the difference between 1 ohm and 0 ohm maybe hard to see.
> 
> Bob
> [snapback]121973[/snapback]​


OK, great, I may try to cut the wires under the trailer and test each one. It is hard to tell if I have 1 ohm or straight continuity at this point... I wish they used plug connectors at each wheel !!!


----------



## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Rob,

I would think hard before I start cutting wires. The instant you do that, you will have voided your warranty (at least on the braking system), and probably relieved Keystone of any future liability if the unthinkable were to happen.

I would give the (a) Keystone authorized dealer a shot at it first!









Happy Trails,
Doug


----------



## rsg99 (May 23, 2006)

Thanks Doug,

Good advice...I just hate to wait. Just got off the phone and they cannot schedule us for another 2 weeks. Not really a big deal as we were not camping anyway, but annoying just the same as it is brand new. But the last thing I need is the brakes failing and having no warranty/liabilty coverage to worry about. It is going back to them....

Rob


----------



## W4DRR (May 17, 2005)

Have you double-checked the Prodigy connection? It is possible to emulate the brakes by connecting a low value resistor or a 12V light at the 7-way connector on the rear of your TV to test the Prodigy and the wiring.
Those 7-way connector testers won't work, because the LED in it for the brakes doesn't pull enough current to activate the Prodigy.

Bob


----------



## rsg99 (May 23, 2006)

Bob,

Great idea, as I was wondering if it is just the Prodigy (It is brand new). I guess I could use one of those low voltage 50 W bulbs and wire it into the truck to test the Prodigy. I am trying to think what I have that I can use for a 'load'. I wonder if a regular 120v incandescent bulb would work?

Rob


----------



## W4DRR (May 17, 2005)

rsg99 said:


> Bob,
> 
> Great idea, as I was wondering if it is just the Prodigy (It is brand new). I guess I could use one of those low voltage 50 W bulbs and wire it into the truck to test the Prodigy. I am trying to think what I have that I can use for a 'load'. I wonder if a regular 120v incandescent bulb would work?
> 
> ...


A 50W 12V light should work. I don't know what the trip point is for the Prodigy, though, so it may take 2 in parallel. Each bulb is approximately 2.8 ohms when lit.
120V bulbs are too high in resistance to work.

Bob


----------



## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

They would see me in court if they voided a warranty because I did the troubleshooting.

If you fully believe that there is a short in the system I would identify the short before I towed it anywhere. You can use a clamp on amp meter and check the current to each brake. Use the emergency brake switch to activate the brakes but replace it as you move the clamp on from each brake wire. If you see one with a much higher current then cut the wire to that brake and retest with the prodigy.

If none of the brakes indicate high current then it could be in the power wire from the plug to the axle. If it is then it could just be a stray wire strand in the 7 pin plug.

I could go on and on about how to troubleshoot and repair this but lets keep it simple for now. Let us know what you find.


----------



## Thor (Apr 7, 2004)

Does the manual lever work on the prodigy? That might give a clue to what the problem is.

Thor


----------



## rsg99 (May 23, 2006)

CamperAndy said:


> They would see me in court if they voided a warranty because I did the troubleshooting.
> 
> If you fully believe that there is a short in the system I would identify the short before I towed it anywhere. You can use a clamp on amp meter and check the current to each brake. Use the emergency brake switch to activate the brakes but replace it as you move the clamp on from each brake wire. If you see one with a much higher current then cut the wire to that brake and retest with the prodigy.
> 
> ...


OK, I am going to do the lamp test first to rule out the Prodigy, and if that is OK, I will check the plug next (Easy to do). I like the clamp on ammeter idea, but I thought that only worked with AC? I will try some tonight after work and let you all know what I find. Thanks !
Rob


----------



## rsg99 (May 23, 2006)

Thor said:


> Does the manual lever work on the prodigy? That might give a clue to what the problem is.
> 
> Thor
> [snapback]122013[/snapback]​


I have to check this again, don't remember. I'll update once I test with the light and plug stuff...

Rob


----------



## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

CamperAndy said:


> They would see me in court if they voided a warranty because I did the troubleshooting.


This is really more up Ghosty's alley, but I fear they would see you lose! Troubleshooting is one thing. Destructive troubleshooting is quite another.

If Keystone can show that you fundamentally altered the system (as cutting wires would do), I think they would have a strong argument that they can no longer be held accountable.









Happy Trails,
Doug


----------



## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

PDX_Doug said:


> CamperAndy said:
> 
> 
> > They would see me in court if they voided a warranty because I did the troubleshooting.
> ...


There is the rub. Being the technically minded guy that I am I could prove that the methods use to troubleshoot and isolate the problem were well within standard practices.

The brake coils are hard crimped to help insure that they do not come loose. Cutting them free is the ONLY way to isolate the individual coils and once isolated they would be tested and if a bad one is found there is NO way that Keystone can say I caused the coil to fail due to the method of isolation and void the warranty on the brake coil.


----------



## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

If by troubleshooting you can determine it is definitly the trailer, they should come to you as it is unsafe to pull without brakes


----------



## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

CamperAndy said:


> PDX_Doug said:
> 
> 
> > CamperAndy said:
> ...


Andy,

I am not doubting your abilities, but from a legal standpoint, I am not sure it even matters if you did it right (or even better than original) or not. I don't have it in front of me, but I'm guessing there is a clause in the fine print of the warranty that states something to the effect of: 'Any and all repair work must be performed by a Keystone authorized agent.' and followed by: 'Any deviation from the terms of this warranty render said warranty null and void.'

From a liability perspective, I think the burden would be on you to prove that your repairs meet or exceed the standard specified by the manufacturer. For example, if you cut a wire to test the system, you must prove that your repair to that wire creates a condition as good as or better than new in all aspects. Keystone might argue that the only acceptable course of 'action' would have been to replace the entire brake system wiring harness. Now, you may be able to prove that Keystone would (and has) done exactly the same thing you did, but bottom line...

You might win... You might lose. Whatever the outcome, you are going to spend a lot of time and money facing down Keystone and the legal resources available to them.

All that said, I would probably do the same as you. But then, my Outback is out of warranty.









Happy Trails,
Doug


----------



## wolfwood (Sep 19, 2005)

PDX_Doug said:


> I don't have it in front of me, but I'm guessing there is a clause in the fine print of the warranty that states something to the effect of: 'Any and all repair work must be performed by a Keystone authorized agent.' and followed by: 'Any deviation from the terms of this warranty render said warranty null and void.'
> [snapback]122057[/snapback]​


Well written, Professor. Want to come work for me?



PDX_Doug said:


> From a liability perspective, I think the burden would be on you to prove that your repairs meet or exceed the standard specified by the manufacturer. [snapback]122057[/snapback]​


I don't expect it would even get to that point - you might not even have the chance to say much. I also don't have the Warranty in front of me, but - presuming it says something even close to Doug's extraordinarily well written statement above (and I am quite certain that it does) - the simple fact would be that the warranty had been voided. Full stop. Discussion over. Keystone is out from under. Of course, then you'd be free to do any work you wanted to...









Andy, as frustrating as it is.....wait to apply your expertise until AFTER the Warranty is out. Make them fix the problem. You bought the TT and that's part of what you paid for....the warranty work (I know - timing - but no Warranty will ever comit that they'll do the work on our schedules.....)


----------



## W4DRR (May 17, 2005)

CamperAndy said:


> You can use a clamp on amp meter and check the current to each brake.[snapback]122012[/snapback]​


Common clamp on amp meters only work with AC.
Clamp on DC amp meters are available, but usually only as an expensive attachment to a DVM.

Bob


----------



## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

W4DRR said:


> CamperAndy said:
> 
> 
> > You can use a clamp on amp meter and check the current to each brake.[snapback]122012[/snapback]​
> ...


They are not that much. Sears clamp on amp meter

Less then $50 and has a ton of uses.


----------



## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Warranties are not really that silly Doug. Arbitration over this would not get past the first 1 or 2 e-mails. There is no way Keystone would take this example as a warranty violation.

If I use a clamp on amp meter to determine a shorted coil, then cut the wire to that coil to allow the remaining 3 brakes to work, they would say thats fine bring it in and we will get a new coil ordered.

Even without a clamp on and I had to separate all of the wires to test individually. When the remaining 3 were reconnected the tech at the nearest dealer would not think Gilligan did it and would be wondering why all of them were not done as well.

There are things that can be done to void warranties like pressurizing your water system to 100 psi to look for a leak and bust all the fittings. Then trying to claim warranty on all the broken fittings.

My trailer is out of warranty but even if it wasn't I have never felt the need to bring it in even though I have had to repair a few things. Even when out of Warranty Keystone replaced my propane tank cover and it could have been broken from standing on it to test and see how strong it was but they did not even ask or complain they just replaced it.

As for this thread the question was asked how to troubleshoot the brakes. It is up to him to decide if he can do this or if he needs the dealer come tow it away or repair it on site as it is not safe for him to tow a trailer of this size without a functioning brake control.


----------



## HootBob (Apr 26, 2004)

tdvffjohn said:


> If by troubleshooting you can determine it is definitly the trailer, they should come to you as it is unsafe to pull without brakes
> [snapback]122050[/snapback]​


I would agree with you John 
Why take a chance if there are no brakes on the TT

Don


----------



## W4DRR (May 17, 2005)

CamperAndy said:


> W4DRR said:
> 
> 
> > CamperAndy said:
> ...


I stand corrected.
It has been a while since I last priced a DC-rated clamp-on amp meter.
And thanks for the tip.







Maybe I need to run down to Sears and get one.

Bob


----------



## bill_pfaff (Mar 11, 2005)

Had the same problem a couple of weeks ago.

Called Prodigy.

They said unplug the TT/TV. If Short light goes off and ol light doesn't show when you hit brakes its in the TV.

Lastly, if it is under warranty - take it to the dealer. Isn't worth the grief of fixing it and voiding your warranty.

By the way. To find the short I also started cutting wires. The short was in the rear axle where the wire jumped from the left wheel to the right wheel.

Good Luck
Bill


----------



## rsg99 (May 23, 2006)

Well, here is the latest update:

I tried the light test method by attaching 2 - 12V 50 w bulbs to the brake controller lead. The Prodigy did not like that and still indicated "Not Connected" I called the company and they told me that the light method would not work, that I needed to use a brake coil to accuratly test the circuit.
So I hooked up my old controller again and had the DW cycle the brakes on and off while I lestened to each wheel. I could hear each brake engaging. I then re-attached the Prodigy and it worked !! Unfortunaly, that was short lived and as soon as I moved, the Overload indicator returned. It looks like a short in the wires somewhere, so it will go back to the dealer.
It seems that my old brake controller will work regardless of the short, so I will use that to get back to the dealer. I'll update evertbody once they tell me what is wrong. I am taking everybodys advice and am not going to cut/fix it myself...it is too risky for both the saftey and from a warranty standpoint.

Thanks again everybody !
Rob


----------



## OutbackPM (Sep 14, 2005)

I have one thing to add that happened to me. I originally had a 2001 Z71 Chevy then I upgraded to 2006 2500 HD. In 2003 they changed the brake controller plug in connector on the truck. When I used the old connector to the Prodigy (cutting the story short, no pun intended







) it applied the brakes







because the brake light switch was not in the circuit so the Prodigy assumed it was on. I got the C connected signal but the red dots would never go off when parked. Changing the connector solved the problem.

You have an old controller are you sure the connections are correct for the Prodigy and vehicle you have? From this thread it does sound like an intermittent short but that would seem odd on a new trailer.

Good luck

David


----------



## rsg99 (May 23, 2006)

OutbackPM said:


> I have one thing to add that happened to me. I originally had a 2001 Z71 Chevy then I upgraded to 2006 2500 HD. In 2003 they changed the brake controller plug in connector on the truck. When I used the old connector to the Prodigy (cutting the story short, no pun intended
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As far as I know, it is correct. I bought the Prodigy with a new cable that attached to the built in connector under the dash (Dodge 2500 2001). I reviewed the wires and all looks correct. I am going to play with the 7way plug and make sure all the wires are tight in there as a last resort...


----------



## W4DRR (May 17, 2005)

rsg99 said:


> Well, here is the latest update:
> 
> I tried the light test method by attaching 2 - 12V 50 w bulbs to the brake controller lead. The Prodigy did not like that and still indicated "Not Connected" I called the company and they told me that the light method would not work, that I needed to use a brake coil to accuratly test the circuit.
> So I hooked up my old controller again and had the DW cycle the brakes on and off while I lestened to each wheel. I could hear each brake engaging. I then re-attached the Prodigy and it worked !! Unfortunaly, that was short lived and as soon as I moved, the Overload indicator returned. It looks like a short in the wires somewhere, so it will go back to the dealer.
> ...


Admittedly, I never actually tried attaching light bulbs to the brake contacts on the 7-way. I was assuming the Prodigy is strictly a DC device, and inductance doesn't matter. Maybe they are doing something to detect an inductive load, ignoring anything pure resistive like a light bulb.
To double check, were you connecting between pins 3 and 4 of the 7-way?

Bob


----------



## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

CamperAndy said:


> They are not that much. Sears clamp on amp meter
> 
> Less then $50 and has a ton of uses.
> [snapback]122084[/snapback]​


That's all I need is another tool...









Actually, I do need another tool! What am I talking about? I always NEED another tool!









Andy, I agree with about 95% of what you are saying. I too am pretty mechanically inclined, and will not hesitate to dive into most any kind of project myself.

The point I was trying to make, was just that it is a brand new trailer, and we are talking about a significant safety issue. Why assume that liability - in any form - if you can get Keystone to fix it for nothing? And why do anything that might jepordize that?

Different strokes, for different folks, eh?









Happy Trails,
Doug

P.S.: The 5% I don't agree with... If there were to be - God forbid - a fatal accident, part of the cause was traced to the braking system, and there was the inevitable multi-million dollar law suit at stake... You can be assured that Keystone would be all over your a**!









Edited 06-16-06 @ 7:20AM PDT


----------



## W4DRR (May 17, 2005)

I just called Tekonsha myself and asked about using a light bulb. The customer service drone that answers the phone has canned answers for typical questions. I suspect the canned response about using bulbs is based on 120V light bulbs which will not work. (We knew that already) The resistance of a 50W 12V bulb is approximately the same as a single brake solenoid. Two in parallel would then simulate a single axle trailer, like a pop-up, which the Prodigy will work with. I know, because I used my Prodigy with my old Coleman Sea Pine.

This is bugging me now, and if I get a chance this weekend, I will wire up a light socket to a 7-way plug, plug it in and see for myself. (I'm from Missouri, so you will have to Show Me) I will post the results.

So based on your results of the Prodigy not seeing the light bulb, it still may indicate a wiring problem somewhere between the Prodigy and the 7-way socket.

Bob


----------



## rsg99 (May 23, 2006)

W4DRR said:


> rsg99 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, here is the latest update:
> ...


Yea, that is what I thought...It needed an inductive load, but who knows. The tech at Prodigy did not go into any details as she really did not know. Sounded like a good idea and that it should work. And yes, I did it from the right pins and tested the voltage output from my old controller from 2 - 12 volts based upon brake controller power. I bet this whole think is due to a frayed wire somewhere...


----------



## rsg99 (May 23, 2006)

W4DRR said:


> I just called Tekonsha myself and asked about using a light bulb. The customer service drone that answers the phone has canned answers for typical questions. I suspect the canned response about using bulbs is based on 120V light bulbs which will not work. (We knew that already) The resistance of a 50W 12V bulb is approximately the same as a single brake solenoid. Two in parallel would then simulate a single axle trailer, like a pop-up, which the Prodigy will work with. I know, because I used my Prodigy with my old Coleman Sea Pine.
> 
> This is bugging me now, and if I get a chance this weekend, I will wire up a light socket to a 7-way plug, plug it in and see for myself. (I'm from Missouri, so you will have to Show Me) I will post the results.
> 
> ...


Great ! Please give it a try. I did use the 2 bulbs in parallel, but got no output at all. I should have tried it with the old brake controller also, but did not. (Something I will try over the weekend). The Prodigy drones are just that...canned answers without really knowing the product. I hate that !


----------



## W4DRR (May 17, 2005)

rsg99 said:


> W4DRR said:
> 
> 
> > I just called Tekonsha myself and asked about using a light bulb.Â The customer service drone that answers the phone has canned answers for typical questions.Â I suspect the canned response about using bulbs is based on 120V light bulbs which will not work.Â (We knew that already)Â The resistance of a 50W 12V bulb is approximately the same as a single brake solenoid.Â Two in parallel would then simulate a single axle trailer, like a pop-up, which the Prodigy will work with.Â I know, because I used my Prodigy with my old Coleman Sea Pine.
> ...


I posted a rather long post in the "Problems, Solutions, & After Market Forum" with the rusults of my test.
In a nutshell, a single 12V / 50W will test the Prodigy. I was able to light it proportional to the position of the manual lever. It would also glow dimly when the brake pedal is depressed. (The Boost feature must be activated for this to work).

Bob


----------



## rsg99 (May 23, 2006)

Bob and All,

Well after reading your post, I tried the test again - It worked! The light that I was originally testing with is called "White night" - It is a aux backup light. But I found out that the backup light is actuated by a relay - The relay did not offer the correct resistance, so the circuit did not work. I then connected a 50W bulb directly to the 7 way and the manual boost switch lit the bulb. I too got the 'nc', but the manual worked fine anyway.

So it ooks like one of the trailer brakes are faulty after all. It is now scheduled for repair in 2 weeks. Thanks again to everybody and thanks to Bob for going the extra mile








Rob


----------



## kjdj (Sep 14, 2004)

I'm surprised the dealer let you leave without working brakes.

My thinking on the dealer making you wait 2 weeks to fix a safety item on a trailer a few days old is a bunch of hooey.


----------

