# 28RS-S with a 1500 Suburban?



## jgerni (Nov 10, 2003)

I currently tow a 25RS-S with a 2000 Suburban K1500 LT 5.3L 3.73 and it does the job adequately. I am looking into the 28RS-S. How much different would the handling charateristics be with the added 4ft in length and 500lbs?


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

I'm not sure that the additional weight or length would make a big difference, but you will notice it. Is there really only 500# difference between the two? I'm too lazy to look it up right now. The weight will be the most noticible difference as the heavier 28' will put you right at your towing capacity after you load up to go. The extra length may not be noticible at all unless you are hit with a decent cross wind.

We tow a 28BHS (29' 4") with our 1500 Burb. and the handling is very smooth with no trouble. With the Reese dual cam sway control it pulls nice and steady and you hardly even know it's back there.

Now power is a different issue. We are lacking, and more performance mods are soon coming which I expect will make the combo acceptable for me, but still not impressive. As I currently sit, long and fairly steep grades will put me at about 45-50mph in 2nd gear running 3500rpm.

In general, you will really be at the top of your towing capacity with the 28RSS and a 1/2 ton Burb. Your limit is actually 500# less because you have a heavier 4WD.

Overall I think that my 28BHS is too much for my 1500. It's not unsafe, just underpowered. But I will keep using it because I don't want the expense of a new tow vehicle right now. I'll upgrade to a 3/4 ton Burb and larger engine in the future.


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## NDJollyMon (Aug 22, 2003)

Also...the 25 RSS is closer to 26'.

(25' 10")


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## jgerni (Nov 10, 2003)

OK, I got my numbers now the 28RS-S is 3' 6" longer than the 25RS-S and weights 615lbs more.

California Jim, its not just you. All of us small block V8 owners are in 2nd gear climbing grades. Thats just where those motors develop their power.

My Suburban has a tow rating of 7800lbs and GCVW of 13,000lbs. I imagine right now I am close to 12,000lbs.

Has anyone had there 25RS-S and TV weighted?


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

I'm surprised that your 4WD 1/2 ton is rated up to 7800#. My 2WD is rated for 6500# with the 3.73's also







There must have been some change in the vehicle structure since the model changed in 2000. I don't think there is any major difference in torque between the 5.3 and 5.7.


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## jgerni (Nov 10, 2003)

The owners manual says 7800lbs and so does the trailer life towing guide but that number really doesn't mean anything I guess. I believe the GCVW of 13000lbs and 7200GVW are the numbers that really matter.

If I had the 4.10 rear then the tow rating jumps to 8800lbs and the GCVW goes to 14,000lbs. I personally can't believe or would want to try to tow 8800lbs with a 1/2 ton Suburban. More than likely I will be over my 7200lbs GVW before the 13000lb GCVW.

The 5.3L has 285hp and 325ft torque. What does the 5.7L have??


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

jgerni,

What does the door sticker say your 'burb weighs?

My '02 K1500 Avalanche (5.3L 3.73) is rated at 7100# tow capacity, with the same GCVW of 13,000#. The GVRW on the Av alone is 7000#. Since the 'burb and the Av are on the same chassis, I would think the GVWR would be the same.

Tim


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

Towing with my Av 1500 and my 28RS-S I'm within the weight limits, but not by a whole bunch. That said the Av (like the Burb) is a good tow vehicle. My combined weight, not fully loaded was 11,860. With my 4x4 and 4.10 rear end my max trailer weight is 7,900# and the GCWR is 14,000#


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## fixjet (Jan 19, 2004)

The 99 5.7liter is rated at 255hp @ 4600rpm and 330ft/lbs @2800. I believe the 5.3 produces it's rated power and torque at higher rpms.
Dan


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

With the two 1/2 ton Burbs (5.3 and 5.7) so close in HP and torque, I wonder what gives the newer style 1800# more towing capacity with the same gears? Just thinking out loud









Either way, I agree that the small block powered SUV's and trucks are working pretty hard as you start to get north of 5000# in trailer weight. Mine fully loaded has got to be approaching 6000# (5200# unloaded), and it's all my humble 1/2 ton can do to pursuade it up the long grades.

I'll throw the Thorley long tube headers and cat-back exhaust on it in a few weeks and see what happens.


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## jgerni (Nov 10, 2003)

The GVRW of the Burb is 7200.

The 5.3L produces 285hp at 5200rpm and 325ft torque at 4000rpms.

For the Burb to have a 7800lb tow rating it would have to have a curb weight of 5200lbs. I have never had my setup weighed but I suspect that the Burb weights around 5800lbs or so.

The 2000 year and later Suburbans have better brakes since they went to discs on all 4 and a stronger frame. They did put coil springs on the rear which would seem to reduce the tow rating but apparently not.

California Jim what is your Suburbans GCWR? I believe this number tells the tail.


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Indeed, the GCWR for the 99 is 12,000#.


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## aplvlykat (Jan 25, 2004)

Jim, when I had the gears changed out the guy told me that GM corrected a problem in the rear end. He said that on the newer body style, GM put heavier carrier bearings and went to a 31 spline axel making the rear end heaver duty. Maybe that and the brakes are the difference in towing capacity? If it helps when I had my Tahoe wieghed it came in at 5040 lbs. Kirk


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## haocamper (Feb 6, 2004)

We have a '98 C-1500 and pull a 28RS-S. I agree with California Jim, the 1500 will pull it but it is underpowered (I wish I had a 2500) for our TT. We tow in 3rd gear so that helps with the power some. Unforutately I thought getting a Suburban 3 years ago meant we could pull anything. Little did I know at the time about towing capicity, etc... Live and Learn


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Same here. When I bought the Burb I was not even considering a trailer. I thought I would get a boat! Funny how having little ones can change your perspective


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## jscotb (Apr 10, 2004)

I tow a 28RS-S with an Avalanche Z66. It has the 3.73 gears. Does not seem to be any prolems. Took it to the North Georgia Mountains a couple of weeks ago and it had no problems. There was on very long 6% grade that had me wondering if I might not need to go to a 4.10 rear end. I was at 3000-3500 rpms and about 50mph. The engine temp went up a little, but dropped back to normal range at the top of the hill. I am considering the gear change and possibly full tube headers. Loved our first outing in the Outback.


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## bulldogfamily6 (May 28, 2004)

Hi! We are new to this forum. We are Outback wantabees! We have a '98 1500 Burb w/ 3.42. We also thought having a Burb we could pull anything. Unfortunately, not so.

We found a 23RS that we wanted to buy. We have been on RV.net forum and have been told time and again we can't pull that trailer with our Burb. We can't afford a new TV - it's either give up completely or figure out how we can pull with our Burb.

Any ideas out there? I notice some of you have basically the same TV but are towing larger trailers. Please let us hear from you.

Thanks,
bulldogfamily6 (Mama)


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Hello Mama:

It sounds to me like you have encountered what is often referred to as "the weight police" over there at RV.net. A well meaning bunch, and usually quite knowledgeable. However, they are often an overly conservitive bunch as well.

Although you do not have an ideal gear ratio for towing, for about $500-600 you could have your rear ratio changed to 4.10's and be in good shape. I'm assuming that your Burb is factory equipped with a towing package, and you have a 2 wheel drive. If you have a 4x4 you will have to change the front gears as they both have to match. The cost will then be about $1000.

As to the 23RS, that trailer is 4360# dry weight and likely 4660# fully equipped with Outback options. This is 600# lighter than I am towing now with the same truck.

The conservative rule of thumb is not to tow more than 75% of your vehicles tow rating. With the gear change you will be rated with at least 6500# and actually more as this is the rating for 3.73 gears. But lets be conservative and say you can pull 6500#. 75% of 6500# is 4875#. So your fully optioned but unloaded weight of the 23RS is 215# below the 75% mark. Follow me?

If you intentionally pack on the light side and throw about 500# of gear in the trailer you are only 285# over a very conservative calculation. Your estimated % would be at about 79% of your rated capacity. This is surely not a deal breaker for you and a 23RS. And with the 4.10 gears you are likely and actually closer to 73-75% of your capacity.

I'll be honest in telling you that my Burb is working very hard going up steep grades, but it is however doing the job satisfactorily. And with a few performance modifications it's getting even better.

It's my humble opinion that if you change your gears to 4.10's you will be just fine with that 23RS.

Go Camping


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## bulldogfamily6 (May 28, 2004)

Thanks, California Jim, for the reply and info.







We called the Chevy dealership we do repair work with yesterday and asked for a quote on changing out the rear to a 3.73. Have not received any word back from them. Should I call back and ask for 4.10? We have a 2WD. It has all the towing stuff on the back. I don't know if it has the oil cooler and all that stuff. We looked at a new truck yesterday - '04 Silverado 2500 Duramax diesel 3.73 crew cab. Nice truck would pull anything we could ever afford to buy, but cost was 35K. We can't afford a truck like that AND a camper. Plus, we would be giving up all our inside room, hardly see how we could haul mama, daddy, sister, brother, bulldog 1 and bulldog 2??? Have you ever felt unsafe while pulling your Outback? Hope to hear back from you at your convenience. You have given us hope again that we may be able to do this after all! sunny Thanks again.

bulldogfamily6 (Mama)


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## fixjet (Jan 19, 2004)

have the exact same setup as you. 99 Sub, 5.7, 3.42 and we pull a 25RSS that weights 4900 lbs. empty. Add your stuff and you people and you can easily add 1000 lbs. I don't tow with the water tank full enless I am going camping locally. That weights 320 lbs. when full. So fully loaded I'm close to 6000 lbs. It will pull it but you won't win any races. I wanted to get the 28RSS but I knew I couldn't do that without a 3/4 suburban and that's out of the question right now. So I'm probably about 800lbs heavier than you so you can do it. If you pull in big hills or mountains it will be a chore up the hills but on the highway it pulls nice right at 65 in 3rd gear.

1. Your Suburban came with P rated tires. They must go and use LT tires with an E rating. This is one of the most important things you can do to the truck. It takes alot of the sway out of the rig and supports the extra.

2. Get an Equilizer (built in sway control) which I have or Reese Dual Cam Weight Distribution Hitch. I bought the Equilizer from RVwholesalers on the web for $399 including shipping. Great price.

3. Transmission Cooler!!!! If you have the tow package you trans cooler is located on the right side of your grill in front of the Radiator. The stock cooler is a good one. I have a electric fan to put on mine ( have not got around to it yet ) for stop and go traffic. I have a transmission temp gage to watch temps and on the highway it runs around 170. In stop and go it goes up to about 190. Also I am running Amsoil Synthetic Trans Fluid to keep the temps lower. The transmission on the 1/2 tons is probably the weak point in the truck. They do ok if you keep the temps in line.

Can you tow the 23 with the 1/2 ton Suburban? Yes you can with some limits. 
Your not going to go 75mph down the interstate, or 65 up mountains. 65 is fine on the flats.
I tow in 3rd gear only for better power and cooler transmission temps.
I have a very good hitch setup.
Good E rated tires.

Would a 3/4 ton be better? Yes
Am I made of Money? NO
Would I tow accross the country with it? Probably not.
4 or 5 hours? Yes we do that all the time.

It's a compromise and maybe a couple of years down the road I will get a bigger truck. But after looking around a couple of weeks ago and seeing a 2003 3/4 ton Suburban used for $39,000 I decided to keep what I have. I wish I had bought a 3/4 ton back when, but I wasn't thinking ahead about a Camper. Then I would have had more options, but I am happy with the 25RSS. Also anything bigger would have been hard to store at my house.

Remember it's easy for people on this and other forums to spend your money. Also alot of these new trucks that have bigger tow ratings produce their power at over 4000 rpms. Ours produces max torque at 2800 rpms. That is right in the tow range in 3rd gear. At 65mph in 3rd I turn about 2450rpms. 3.73 gears would bump the rpms right up to that 2800 peak torque figure. I have thought about changing to 3.73's someday as it also gives you 1000lbs. more towing capacity. 4.10's another 1000lbs. This is a good resource and good people with knowledge are on it. But it's a little easy for people to tell you to get this and you can't do that. So you have to wade thought the muck a little on some forums. This is my favorite forum as the people are a more down to earth. I agree with Cal Jim on the Weight Cops on RV.net.

I have no problem with the 25RSS and the 23RS should be fine for you. Just make sure your setup correctly as thats the most important safety issue.
Hope I didn't throw to much at you and if you need anymore info drop me a note.


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## borntorv (Apr 13, 2004)

Looks like you've got a lot of good advice already here.

I would just echo what Fixjet recommended about getting a good hitch. Something we all need to remember is to drive within the limits of our TV. I don't care what specs it has. You can always accelerate slower, drive slower and stay alert. However, if you don't have a decent hitch you're at the mercy of external factors like weather and other traffic. A good hitch set-up will help you regain some degree of control over those things.

My 1/2-ton Burb is probably at its limit pulling a 28 footer. Since adding an E-qualizer I'm much more comfortable towing but the 5.3L definitely has to work particularly up hills or into the wind. Like I said though, just work with the truck and things will go fine.

We all want our fellow RVers to be safe. It's important to remember though that specs alone can't guarantee safety. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to drive the combination you're considering provided my expectations for performance were not unrealistic.

Whatever your decision I hope you find a way to get an RV because it simply is a great way to spend time.

Good luck,

Greg


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Bulldog:

There should be no cost difference between installing 3.73's or 4.10's. Either way they will have to install a new ring and pinion gear.

If you still have the stock diameter tires on your truck then 3.73's will be a good compromise between towing power and fuel economy. However, when you move up to good LT tires with an "E" rating (which is an excellent idea as suggested) You will likely increase the overall tire diameter from stock. This raises your effective gear ratio (numerically lower) and will cost you in torque and towing power. For this reason I would go with the 4.10 gears to both add more towing power, and offset the larger tire diameter when installed in the future.

As to safety, I have never felt unsafe while towing our 28 footer. I account this mainly to an excellent sway control system (Reese dual cam), and good shock absorbers (Rancho 9000X adjustables). It is imperative that you also install a good sway control on your new trailer. Because the tongue weight on the 23RS is very light at 360# I would suggest you install the Equalizer system. This system is not dependent upon a heavier tongue weight like the Reese system, and performs every bit as good, or even better depending upon who you ask









I know this sounds like alot of information to digest all at once. But you are way ahead of alot of folks by coming here and educating yourself in advance of a purchase. You and your family should be safe and happy with your new trailer if you are diligent to get your truck properly set-up in advance. And of course just plain taking your time out there on the road is the best advice I could give.


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

What can I say that hasn't been said already. I agree with California Jim on the Dual Cam issue. The DC relies on hitch weight to work, so a lighter tongue wgt trailer will do better with the Equal-i-zer.

Good luck with the purchase, as you will enjoy RV'ing.

Tim


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## bulldogfamily6 (May 28, 2004)

Good morning! Hope all of you are having a great Memorial Day weekend. Most of you probably are camping and won't read this post until Monday or Tuesday.

We heard back from the Chevy dealer late yesterday afternoon. We have been given a price of $1200.00 to change the 3.42 to 3.73 - that seemed a bit high to us. The man said it was $700.00 in parts and the rest in labor & tax. He also said we could not get the 4.10 for our year model.

Fixjet - in reference to your post...

1. We checked under the hood of our Burb and it has what looks like two radiators- one in front of the other. Is this the trans cooler you are talking about?? If so, where do we get the fan, the transmission temp gage, and the Amsoil Synthetic Trans Fluid? If not, where to we have the extra cooler installed..at the camper dealership?? Please advise.

2. Is the Equilizer a weight distribution AND sway control hitch? The camper dealer quoted us a 1000 lb. easy lift weight distribution hitch ($310.00) with 2 slide bar sway controls ($296.00) and the electric brake kit ($232.00). Am I understanding correctly that the Equilizer ($399.00) would take the place of the hitch and sway bars (total $606.00)? If so, and it does what you want it to do, we'd be crazy not to save that extra $200.00 Please advise.

3. We have P rated Michelin tires right now. Am going to call Sam's to see about LT E rated Michelins. What brand do you run?

We live in Mississippi - no major hills - and we'd be pulling basically around the southeast. For now, we wouldn't be making any long trips. Hopefully, within the next couple of years, we could see our way to get a 2500 Burb. I just don't like giving up my room to go from a Burb to a truck. That's my thinking - what do all of you say??

Yes, California Jim, this is a lot of information to digest. However, we appreciate every bit of info you kind folks are willing to give. We are still horse trading with the dealer on the TT. We really like it and it fits the needs of our family better than anything else we have looked at over the last month. His last price was $16,900.00 on an '04. He did try to pressure us a bit by saying he would have another interest payment due on it June 1st.

Just to recap- do we understand correctly that what we need in order to pull this trailer is:

*New tires - LT - E rated
*Good hitch & sway control - Equalizer - anything else to go with the E??
*electric brake for trailer
*Trans cooler - if not already on the burb
*trans temp gage
*trans electric fan
*Amsoil Synthetic Trans fluid

Anything else???? Can we do without anything listed above??

For all the help y'all are giving us - you all just need to come to Mississippi and we'll throw a party!







The watermelons will be just right in about 4 weeks, the waterpark is 20 minutes up the road, and my hubby is the best grill cook anywhere around!







We really appreciate all the input and the time it takes to give the input. Hopefully, we'll be proud owners of that Outback within the next week. 
BTW, any advise on that walk through when we go to pick up the trailer? What to look for, etc.?

Thanks in advance for your responses.









bulldogfamily6 (Mama)


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## fixjet (Jan 19, 2004)

Bulldogfamily6, The $1200 sound pretty high to me for gear swap. From reading a GM Performance forum most guys are getting that done for under $1000.

1. The 2 Radiators you talk about are most likely the Radiator and Air Conditoner's Condensor. They are basically the same height and width. The A/C Condensor is in front of the Radiator. If you have the transmission cooler it will be located on the lower right side of the grill. It is approx. 5x10 inches. Look in your glove box for a sticker with a whole bunch of numbers on it. If you have Z82 you have the Heavy Duty trailer package that will include engine and transmission coolers, and the trailer brake wiring. That wiring would be tucked up on the left frame rail next to the hitch. It has heavy gage blue and red wires.

2. Yes the Equalizer is a weight distribution and sway control system all in one. It's a great hitch and comes with every thing you need except the ball. To me it's a no-brainer and something I wouldn't compromise on. Also RVwholesalers price includes shipping. Go to their website and the hitch is on the homepage upper left corner. They also have the best price around on the Prodigy brake controller

http://www.equalizerhitch.com/

http://rvwholesalers.com/index.php

3. Right now I have Yokohama Geolander Plus II's They are an AT type because I also pull snowmobiles in the winter. I have found some rims on ebay and will buy some tires for the summer and save the Yoko's for the winter. You don't have that issue down south.

4. You can use Amsoil, Mobil1 or any other synthetic ATF. I don't know where to get Mobil1, but Amsoil is easy to get. You can buy it from a dealer in your area ( I am one myself ) or online. If you like I can help with an order if you need. I order all the oil I use and that I sell via telephone or online and usually get it in 3 days.

http://www.amsoil.com/

5. The transmission cooling fan is a Spay Fan. It will not fit behind a stock cooler and I am going to have to modify it to fit. If you don't drive in stop and go traffic it is probably overkill but I like overkill.

6. Temp gage is a Autometer gage and sender. Sender is mounted in my Large capacity trans pan.


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## bulldogfamily6 (May 28, 2004)

Hey, thanks Fixjet. Just visited the websites you gave.

One more question about the Equilizer - do we get the 600, 1000, or 1200 lb size?

Saw the Prodigy too. Is this something my husband can install? He's real good with electric/electronic stuff. He was an electronic technician before he was injured on a job several years ago.

Hubby just checked and we have Z88 on the number thing and no 5x10 box. That means more money. We do, however, have that big hitch thing in the back with the square in the middle of it. There are no heavy duty wires, only just regular trailer wires. That means more money too. But, advice on the Equilizer and Prodigy saved $340.00 - maybe we can get the trans cooler and wiring done for that amount of money. Since we are going to have to get trans cooler, any suggestions about a real good one???? Maybe since we're having to get one, we could find one with the fan and temp gage all in one.

Thinking real heavy about waiting on changing out gears - trailer might pull just fine with the 3.42 for the area we live in. We can do that later if needed.

Checked on the tires - we have 15" rims. Currently have Michelin Radial XW4 P235/75R15. Sam's and local tire store both said they didn't stock 15" tire w/ E rating. Local tire store said he would call Tuesday and see what he could find out. What about the current tire? Is it something we could pull the trailer home with (about 100 miles) or would you not think so?

Thanks for info on Amsoil. We had never heard of that product. When the time comes, we may just need to ask for your help. We appreciate the offer.

Called the dealer today and they still have the trailer on the lot (at least they did at about 1:00). We have not placed a deposit on it because we didn't know about our TV. Hubby and I are about ready to call first thing Monday morning and get a deposit on it. It is the only one they have on the lot right now. They have another one, 28BHS, due in about the middle of June. Isn't that what y'all have? I get all these confused. The dealer said the list on the 23R was $21,291.00 and their first asking price was $16,900.00. We are hoping to get them to come down from there. Any input there?

We are getting really excited - but still cautious. We even checked out two camp sites today while we were out seeing Shrek 2. Really recommend the movie - kids or no kids - cute, funny movie. Will shut my mouth now and see if there's a baseball game on! Have a good one - action

bulldogfamily6 (Mama)


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## fixjet (Jan 19, 2004)

I got the 1200 equalizer maybe a little over kill but if I get a bigger rig someday it will still be usable.

Z88 rpo code is for the GMC nameplate, you don't have the trailer package. But you can do it yourself.

The brake controller wiring is not a bad job. Hubby should be able to handle that with his background. The controllers directions will tell you the proper wire gage to use.

I still use the 3.42 gears so you probably can wait on that. But DO NOT wait on the transmission cooler!!! TRU-COOL coolers by Long are very good and the same type used on GM trucks like yours. I bought one on ebay and the same shop has them on there right now in 3 sizes. Around $50 for mine. Search Tru-Cool on ebay. Go to the link below and click on Oil Coolers to download a good PDF file on transmission coolers.
http://www.longmfg.com/web/longwebframewor...me/web.Products

Check around on the tires. www.tirerack.com is a good resource for that. In the meantime run what you got at max airpressure to keep them cool and handle the load.

I paid $15900 for my 04 25RSS so there must be a little more room to work on the price of the 23. But every dealer has his limits. My local dealer would not go below $19800 and I found a dealer 5 hours away that beat him by 4k. Local guy quit calling me when I tried to get him to come close to that deal. Needless to say I drove the 5 hours for the 4k savings.


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