# Towing A 21rs With A Jeep



## azx33 (Aug 13, 2005)

I towed my 21RS from Pheonix Az to Durango CO. Most of this was mountainous driving with high elevations in some areas (10,000 +ft according to my GPS).

My tow vehicle is a 2K Jeep Grand Cherokee with a rated tow capacity of 6750 with the 4.7L V8. The Jeep has tow package and 3.73 gears I figure my trailer loaded weighs around 4600 lbs, give or take. Dry weight is around 3800.

I have a equalizer WD/anti-sway hitch setup, prodigy controller, and have added a external tranny cooler. This was my first trip towing the 21RS, so I was initially a little nervous.

In general, I felt the Jeep did pretty good and handled fine with no sway problems, braking on some of the steeper grades could have been better.

On a couple of the long grades, especially at the higher elevations, the jeep was pulled down to 40-45 mph and on all big hills I was in 2nd at around 4000-4500 rpms. Gas milage was bad as well in the mountains around 8 mpg, 11-12 otherwise.

I am wondering that given the terrain, if this normal towing experience or if my Jeep is not up to the task. I talked to my neighbor who pulls a 26' Prowler with a 2500 Suburban with the 454 motor and he reports similar experiences.

I plan at some point replacing my TV, but for now I would like to keep it as the jeep is my DD and it gets 17-18 mpg around town. There are performance mods available for the WJ like cold air intake, high flow exhaust and KRC performance CAMs. All this from what I read claims about an extra 40-50 hp and 60-70 ft-lbs torque peak in the mid to high power range. Hopefully, these mods should allow the Jeep to pull the long grades better.

Looking for opinions on whether I should add the performance modifications or leave as is until I get a new TV in a year or two. Also, interested in what other are experiencing when towing in the rocky mountains.


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## Scooter (May 9, 2005)

Hi Azx33
What year is your Outback?
Have you ever had it over the scales?

Keystone quotes Gross Dry Weight (UVW): as 3990 without options for 2003-2006 models. yet the actual true weight is approx 4130 with all options
Add additional 60lbs for LP 
weight of your battery(ies)
Then additional supplies 
you may be surprised to find your towing a much heavier TT then you think.

Regards,
Dave


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## HootBob (Apr 26, 2004)

azx33
One thing to remember is you're not running a race.
Big hills are always tougher try adding alittle more braking to the trailer.

Don


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## camping479 (Aug 27, 2003)

The weights in the brochure are deceiving. Our 21rs was 5,450#, 50# under gvw and the tongue weight was almost 800# when I had ours weighed before a trip this past summer. The actual tongue weight on ours is a far cry from the 390 the brochure states. I was pretty suprised as we pack kind of light.

We have since gone on a gear diet and taken a lot of stuff out. This winter we are completely emptying the trailer out and will start from scratch in the spring with only what we use and not what we think we will use.

Weighing your setup to see where you are at is a good idea, you may be alright weight wise. Slow going in the mountains is pretty much the norm towing with a small block V8

The general consensus seems to be that performance mods to gas trucks aren't all they are cracked up to be. Save your money for a new truck.

Mike


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## gregjoyal (Jan 25, 2005)

Jeeps are notoriously bad for poor breaking... The common consensus among Jeep enthusiasts is that upgrading their brakes never disappoints.

The cold air intake is also highly rated due to the poor design of the Jeep intake box. But I wouldn't waste my time with much else... Upgraded brakes and the cold air intake wouldn't be such a waste (some even report a mild 1 mpg gain in driving around the city if you don't stomp the skinny pedal too much).

Check out www.jeepsunlimited.com for info (this sight is mostly dedicated to people who lift their jeeps, but they know them inside and out).

I still miss my Jeep (98 zj)... It sucked in gas mileage, but it sure was comfortable and fun to drive.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

azx33,

I would guess that you are kind of pushing the limits of your Jeep. To your credit, you are pulling one of the lighter Outbacks out there, and have made important mods to the Jeep (i.e.; tranny cooler).

The short wheelbase is an issue with the Jeep, but again you are not trying to pull one of the bigger TT's, so you are probably OK there (barely).

Braking is a huge issue when pulling a trailer, especially if you are towing in the mountains. I would take a long hard look at that!









As for the 'performance mods', be sure to take all the claims you will hear with a grain of salt. In reality, most of these upgrades do little of what they claim, and in some cases even hurt performance.

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## glennsteers (Apr 25, 2005)

Camping479's experience is very close to my experience. His trailer weighed in at 1460 lbs over the "quoted" dry weight. My 26RS (almost fully loaded) weighed in at 6100 lbs at the scales. This is 1620 lbs over my "quoted" dry weight. I was over my GCWR but under my towing capacity (old TV)! Keep in mind that every thing you bring is subtracted from the tow weight, including stuff in your Jeep and your family's weight...

Here's how RV manufacturers dry weight estimates work:

1) Dry weights do not include options
2) Outbacks do not have any options
3) Options included in this "scam" are the awning, AC unit, stove, microwave, refrigerator, TV antenna, battery, LP tanks
4) It does not include propane
5) It does not include any tank fluids

Now, the factory quoted total of these "options" is 300 lbs (for most Keystone products). But I feel that even that amount is fudged. Also, Scooter has the weight for the propane wrong. Even though you have 2-30 lb LP tanks, the actual weight of that propane is over 250lbs!

Now researching your 2000 JGC, I found this information:

Jeep Grand Cherokee

So start with your listed Maximum gross combined weight rating (I assume you have a Class IV hitch setup) of 11,000 lbs. Subtract your vehicle's curb weight (4,000) and that leaves you 7,000 lbs. Subtract your tongue weight (Using Camping479's estimate of 800) that leaves you 6200 lbs. Subtract family weight (mine is 700 lbs but I have 7 people in mine) let's guess at 400 lbs. That brings you down to 5800 lbs which is very close to Camping479's 5450 lb estimate. There really isn't much room for play here. You also need to subtract the weight of your hitch too. If you carry more stuff or have a larger family, you're too heavy. At worst, you're exceeding your max GCWR. At best, you're pushing the envelope.

These are the realizations that caused us to upgrade our TV this summer. In my case, I had a tow capacity of 6900 lbs. My trailer weighed it at 6100 lbs and I was still over my GCWR! My current TV has a tow capacity of 8650. If I follow the 80% rule, I shouldn't tow more than 6950 lbs. If your tow capacity is 6500 (as suggested by 2000 documentation) then your 80% would be 5200 lbs.

It sounds like you are open to a TV upgrade...I would strongly consider it especially since you do battle with mountains. Thinner mountain air may also affect your air intake and engine performance (?). Until you move up to a larger TV, consider only carrying essential gear. Just my 2 cents...


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## GlenninTexas (Aug 11, 2004)

glennsteers said:


> Even though you have 2-30 lb LP tanks, the actual weight of that propane is over 250lbs!
> 
> [snapback]60270[/snapback]​


Hummm, I'm stronger than I though. I didn't realize I could carry two tanks that weight a combined weight of 250 lbs!







I would have though they weighted about 50 -60 lbs each.

Regards, Glenn


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## glennsteers (Apr 25, 2005)

Glenn,

It didn't make sense to me either, but this is right off a trailer's sticker:










Did I miss something?

Glenn


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

glennsteers said:


> Glenn,
> 
> It didn't make sense to me either, but this is right off a trailer's sticker:
> 
> ...


Must be the same guy that does the drain labels. You only have 15 gallons of Propane not 60.


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

Glenn,

No, but apparently Keystone missed something. Outbacks have two thirty-pound propane tanks, which obviously equals sixty pounds. They do not carry sixty *gallons *of propane. At 4.2 pounds per gallon, full tanks will hold roughly 14.3 gallons.

Bill


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## glennsteers (Apr 25, 2005)

Well that's good news! 200 lbs of new gear that I can add to my trailer!! Woohoo!

Makes you kinda wonder about ANY information you get from Keystone, huh? SCARY!


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

Maybe it was an option. 60 gallons of propane. Most of us know how large a 55 gallon drum is, so add 5 gallons and that would be a 60 gallon propane tank.

Big capacity and somehow I think a 60 gallon propane tank would be more than 252 lbs.









The same guy that prints the net weight of the trailer is at it again.


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## glennsteers (Apr 25, 2005)

Maybe by listing the propane at 252 lbs, they're hiding more of the actual weight? Do you think this is incompetence or purposeful deception? BTW, sorry Scooter!


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

That sticker is curious!?!

I always thought the unit of measure for propane was pounds, so I did a little checking on google and found Northwest Energy Storage - Propane Facts.

In summary, Your Outback has two 30 pound (not gallon) tanks. Each tank holds 7.08 gallons of propane (allowing for a 20% vapor space), at 4.24#/Gal. = 30.0192#/Tank x two tanks = 60.0384 pounds of propane total. Plus the weight of the tanks themselves.

I don't know where Keystone came up with the info on their certification sticker, but a totally inaccurate number like that is a little scary!









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## Highlander96 (Mar 1, 2005)

Looks like someone has been "POKING SMOT" at Keystone, again!

Happy Outbacking!

Tim


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## azx33 (Aug 13, 2005)

gregjoyal said:


> Jeeps are notoriously bad for poor breaking... The common consensus among Jeep enthusiasts is that upgrading their brakes never disappoints.
> 
> The cold air intake is also highly rated due to the poor design of the Jeep intake box. But I wouldn't waste my time with much else... Upgraded brakes and the cold air intake wouldn't be such a waste (some even report a mild 1 mpg gain in driving around the city if you don't stomp the skinny pedal too much).
> 
> ...


Yeah I read that forum on a regular basis. I have already upgraded my brakes with Stillen cross drilled rotors and Metal matrix pads. I think my marginal braking is due the setup of my trailer brakes. I bought a Prodigy controller, but have not installed it yet. I am still running my old voyager that I used to pull my Fleetwood popup.

As far as the 21RS it an 05. I specifically went with the 21RS, as that is the only Outback TT that I felt comfortable towing with my Jeep. This was a compromise, as we wanted the 25RS. I have a slight lift on my Jeep and have upgraded the stock springs/shocks to HD OME. I also run a slightly larger than stock tires 245/75/R16 Brigdestone Dueller REVOS.

At this point I will probably keep the Jeep and try the 3" exhaust/high flow CAT and K&N FIPK intake. This should help a little on the hills. If it becomes unbearable for the few trips we take a year I'll go for a bigger TV. This is kind of a tradeoff for performance as a DD and tow rig. I still can't see myself using pickup or a hugh SUVs as DD for work, not mention parking and using up garage space.

Nice thing about the Jeep is once camp is set, I can use it offroad.


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## Pastor John (Oct 13, 2005)

Hi folks! I just this afternoon had my 30lb tanks filled. One weighed 55 lbs full and the other went 56 lbs full (not FULL-full, but at capacity).


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## glennsteers (Apr 25, 2005)

The tanks empty probably weigh 25 lbs each...


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## TheMillers (Aug 8, 2005)

My 4Runner is comparable in size and tow capacity. Like you, I elected to compromise on the length of the trailer because I love having a smaller SUV that I can drive everyday and take off road. Now that I have the shorter 21rs and have camped with friends with the longer trailers, I must say the shorter length has it's advantages in manuverability!

I think you'll see a world of difference on the braking once you install the Prodigy.We've taken the trailer through the mountains over here in Southern California, and I haven't had any speed problems. The truck was always willing to faster than would be safe.

Have fun,
Bruce


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## gregjoyal (Jan 25, 2005)

azx33 said:


> Yeah I read that forum on a regular basis. I have already upgraded my brakes with Stillen cross drilled rotors and Metal matrix pads. I think my marginal braking is due the setup of my trailer brakes. I bought a Prodigy controller, but have not installed it yet. I am still running my old voyager that I used to pull my Fleetwood popup.
> 
> As far as the 21RS it an 05. I specifically went with the 21RS, as that is the only Outback TT that I felt comfortable towing with my Jeep. This was a compromise, as we wanted the 25RS. I have a slight lift on my Jeep and have upgraded the stock springs/shocks to HD OME. I also run a slightly larger than stock tires 245/75/R16 Brigdestone Dueller REVOS.
> 
> ...


The prodigy should be a welcome improvement.

I didn't want to sell my Jeep either, but I only had to 4.0L and there was no way it was going to pull a trailer we would be happy with (yeah, we wanted a big trailer).

We decided to sell and buy a bigger truck - with the Avalanche being a nice compromise between SUV and pickup, though I'm towing at max capacity - but mainly in the good old flatter than a pancake prairies. The irony is that I get better gas mileage around town (at least 1 mpg better @ 15 mpg) and on the highway (about 4 mpg @ 22 mpg) in a 5700lb vehicle than I did with a 3700lb vehicle. Heck, I get better mileage towing my TT with the Av than I got towing my boat (19') with the Jeep.

I feel the need to repeat though - I miss my old Jeep! That thing rocked in the snow...


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