# What's Wrong With Half Tons???



## navycranes

Thanks everyone for your comments. I have eddited my post to remove pretty much everything I said since this forum doesn't allow me to delete my post (or at least I cant figure out how)

All the good conversation has ended and now people are just trying to pick fights. It was a good 24 hours but I recomend the the mods delete this thread.


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## CamperAndy

Wow now that is a can of worms ready to explode.

Much of what you say may be true but when you have to add new shocks and airbags to up your safe feeling you may have purchased a 2500 or 3500 and not added anything. Sorry.

1500's can tow Outbacks but everything must be accounted for.


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## N7OQ

I'm with you here, there is nothing wrong with a half ton truck as a TV as long as you don't exceed your ratings. You are correct there are those here who think you have to have a 1 ton diesel to tow anything. But in realty what most people call a 1/2 ton like a Ford F150 or a Chevy 1500 are not even a half tom but a 3/4 ton truck and what they call a 3/4 ton is really a 1.25 ton truck.


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## CamperAndy

One more thing, before we had the 3500 we had a 1500 and a 28rss and I swore it was okay but then a few 7% grades told me otherwise.


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## Castle Rock Outbackers

From my perspective, since I have towed with both on the exact same make and model (GMC Yukon XL), I just prefer the overall 3/4-ton towing experience. The tranny cooler is another big plus with 3/4 tons (GM at least). I cannot imagine how hot the 1/2 ton tranny must have become when towing over Colorado's mountains. It got plenty hot at times with the 3/4-ton and auxillary cooler.

The other bit of advice came from the AAMCO tech while having the fluids changed on my 3/4-ton. He said the tranny in the 3/4-ton Yukon XL is a great. He rebuilds one, maybe two of them per year. 1/2-ton Yukon trannys are another story, he said. Those belong in cars, not SUVs (his words).

Randy


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## Sean Woodruff

Ok, I swear on a stack of Bibles that navycranes DOES NOT work for me...


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## Oregon_Camper

navycranes said:


> I am starting to wonder why everyone is bashing the half ton pickup truck. Every time someone comes on here for advice about towing with their half ton truck someone blasts them and tells them to get a new TV.
> ..snip...
> We really need to start helping these half ton owners and stop slamming them as soon as they join the forum and *tell them they are stupid for towing with a half ton*. Did we forget somewhere along the line that Outback is classified as lightweight travel trailer DESIGNED to be towed by half ton trucks?


I think you make good points, however I'd like to see a post where *any* member of this board called someone stupid for using a 1/2 ton truck. People ask for our opinion and that is exactly what they get...our options. You can't get upset for giving someone what they asked for.

Does every Outback need a 1 ton...Nope.

Do some people get roped in by a RV Sales person that tells them their 1/2 truck can tow a 31RQS...Yep.

When I joined this forum I was looking at a 28RSS and I had a 2000 Expedition (call it a 1/2 ton). I was never called stupid or slammed for having this vehicle and considering to buy at 28RSS. Members of this board simply told me their opinions and stated some basic towing facts. I took that information and decided I needed a 3/4 ton vehicle to tow safely.


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## hazmat456

agreed more economical to update my current 1/2 ton than to buy a 3/4 ton with the same motor,trans and rear end. I would not gain anything but another payment.


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## Scoutr2

I do not recall anyone on this forum being called stupid for towing with a half-ton truck. Some people are a little more forceful in their recommendations, but "flaming" is not allowed here. Andy, Doug, etc. would not allow it. (And we thank them!)

Most people here that get the advice to upgrade to a 3/4-ton truck have asked the question. And people like myself, who have towed with a 1/2-ton Suburban, and now with a 3/4-ton pickup, can attest - first-hand - that the difference is like night and day.

And there is a big difference between the 1/2-ton and the 3/4-ton trucks and their power trains. My 1/2-ton Suburban essentially had a car transmission in it, along with a lower-geared rear-end to improve gas mileage. The 3/4-tons have a beefier suspension, bigger engines (for the most part), HD transmission/torque converter, beefier brakes, larger capacity radiator, engine and tranny coolers, and a higher geared rear-end that has power/torque in mind, as opposed to fuel economy. They were designed to tow and haul bigger loads than the half-tons.

I'd much rather be towing with my 3/4-ton when that 30 mph crosswind hits me than in my 1/2-ton Suburban, with air ride and soft suspension. Been there - done that. And I now tow with a 3/4-ton.

Are you bad or foolish for towing a 30 foot trailer with a half-ton? Not in my book. It's personal choice. But I decided I did not want to do it after the first few trips.

(And contrary to your post - there are a lot of folks out there that are towing well beyond their ratings, and I wince when I think about the consequences if they ever get into an emergency situation. I see it every time I pull into a campground. Heck, we have friends who pull a 34' Pilgrim trailer, weighing in around 11,000# - with a half-ton Suburban. He knows he's overloaded, but they "don't travel too far from home.")

Just my $.02.

Mike


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## Scoutr2

Sean Woodruff said:


> Ok, I swear on a stack of Bibles that navycranes DOES NOT work for me...


LOL!


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## CamperAndy

Scoutr2 said:


> Ok, I swear on a stack of Bibles that navycranes DOES NOT work for me...


LOL!






















[/quote]

I really did LOL when I read that but did not respond until I go to the bottom and saw that someone else thought that was very funny also. Well done Sean.


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## Ghosty

OK -- yes I am one of those bad folks that you are alluring too...

A few days ago after my last camping trip I decided that I was just sort of tired of never being "relaxed" while towing my trailer with my 1/2 ton...

so I asked all of you what I should get -- then went with what most of you said -- and then had my wife overturn me -- but anyway -- yep - traded a 1/2 for a 3/4 simply because it was not a pleasure for me to pull anymore and plus -- man -- they are giving these trucks away now -- so to speak...

But in my defense -- if you are thinking about buying a truck now is the time -- my sticker was 48,900 -- and before we even started haggling at all the dealer started at 36,400 - thats 12500 off the sticker from the get-go...and after i traded the 2005 Silverado 1500 in was in the low 20's when it was all said and done...

But I digress..

In 2005 I purchased a 2005 Silverado 1500 1/2 ton Chevy... I loved that truck -- got all the engine modifications and exhaust modifications performed to squeeze out every HP and ft/lb possible... it was a sturdy fine awesome 1/2 truck --

I towed the 23RS behind it often ...

My truck did great on flat roads at 60 mph with the trailer ... yes I could feel it back there and yes sometimes on a hill or windy road I didn't know if I was driving the trailer or the trailer was driving me... and yes the 1/2 ton sometimes couldn't decide if it wanted to stay in OD or 3rd and the transmission sometimes warmed up more then I wanted .. but it did its job...and towed the trailer

Gas mileage suffered allot towing -- and I could often tell which way the wind was coming from by looking not at the compass but the fuel gauge...

and hills (both going up and down) were something I didn't look forward to..

But still the same -- the truck did what it was suppose to do ...

---

two days ago I traded the truck in for a 3/4ton 2008 Silverado 2500HD 6.6 Diesel LB and towed the trailer around today to get use to it...

Holy CRAP what a difference -- man I am still smiling -- I couldn't even tell it was there ... and literally my own board computer didn't even show a drop in MPG .. I mean -- WOW!!!

Hills that normally made me slow down and drop to third didn't even phase the Duramax engine or 6 speed Allison tranny..

Did i mention -- WOW!!!

I know thats not the answer anyone wanted to hear but my recommendation to anyone that is thinking of buying a truck NOW -- find the truck you think will tow you perfectly -- and go up a size ... maybe if I had done that 4 years ago I would not have left knuckle marks on the steering wheel of the ol' 1/2 ton I traded in or still be trying to unclench my butt cheeks from some of these hills I was on or idiots in front of me...

Bottom-line is that the 1/2 ton - if set up correctly does a fine job towing under the parameters it was designed to do it under -- but in reality -- the 3/4 simply does it so much easier and better IMO ...


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## aantolik

Well said. I'm very happy with my half-ton and w/d setup1


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## having_fun

"two days ago I traded the truck in for a 3/4ton 2008 Silverado 2500HD 6.6 Diesel LB and towed the trailer around today to get use to it..."

Congrates! It must be great.

Put me down as a former disapointed Dodge 1500 6.0 owner, and new happy Chevy 2500HD driver. You need not spend 50K, I got my ride for 20K.


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## navycranes

Ghosty said:


> OK -- yes I am one of those bad folks that you are alluring too...
> 
> A few days ago after my last camping trip I decided that I was just sort of tired of never being "relaxed" while towing my trailer with my 1/2 ton...
> 
> so I asked all of you what I should get -- then went with what most of you said -- and then had my wife overturn me -- but anyway -- yep - traded a 1/2 for a 3/4 simply because it was not a pleasure for me to pull anymore and plus -- man -- they are giving these trucks away now -- so to speak...
> 
> But in my defense -- if you are thinking about buying a truck now is the time -- my sticker was 48,900 -- and before we even started haggling at all the dealer started at 36,400 - thats 12500 off the sticker from the get-go...and after i traded the 2005 Silverado 1500 in was in the low 20's when it was all said and done...
> 
> But I digress..
> 
> In 2005 I purchased a 2005 Silverado 1500 1/2 ton Chevy... I loved that truck -- got all the engine modifications and exhaust modifications performed to squeeze out every HP and ft/lb possible... it was a sturdy fine awesome 1/2 truck --
> 
> I towed the 23RS behind it often ...
> 
> My truck did great on flat roads at 60 mph with the trailer ... yes I could feel it back there and yes sometimes on a hill or windy road I didn't know if I was driving the trailer or the trailer was driving me... and yes the 1/2 ton sometimes couldn't decide if it wanted to stay in OD or 3rd and the transmission sometimes warmed up more then I wanted .. but it did its job...and towed the trailer
> 
> Gas mileage suffered allot towing -- and I could often tell which way the wind was coming from by looking not at the compass but the fuel gauge...
> 
> and hills (both going up and down) were something I didn't look forward to..
> 
> But still the same -- the truck did what it was suppose to do ...
> 
> ---
> 
> two days ago I traded the truck in for a 3/4ton 2008 Silverado 2500HD 6.6 Diesel LB and towed the trailer around today to get use to it...
> 
> Holy CRAP what a difference -- man I am still smiling -- I couldn't even tell it was there ... and literally my own board computer didn't even show a drop in MPG .. I mean -- WOW!!!
> 
> Hills that normally made me slow down and drop to third didn't even phase the Duramax engine or 6 speed Allison tranny..
> 
> Did i mention -- WOW!!!
> 
> I know thats not the answer anyone wanted to hear but my recommendation to anyone that is thinking of buying a truck NOW -- find the truck you think will tow you perfectly -- and go up a size ... maybe if I had done that 4 years ago I would not have left knuckle marks on the steering wheel of the ol' 1/2 ton I traded in or still be trying to unclench my butt cheeks from some of these hills I was on or idiots in front of me...
> 
> Bottom-line is that the 1/2 ton - if set up correctly does a fine job towing under the parameters it was designed to do it under -- but in reality -- the 3/4 simply does it so much easier and better IMO ...


Congratulations on your new Chevy. With the price of diesel it is no small wonder why dealers are trying to get rid of these trucks. If you got the cash its defiantly a buyers market.

I would sure hope you would say WOW. You are pulling a 6,000 pound trailer with a truck that is designed to tow 16,000 pounds. I can believe it that you feel a difference. Kind of like shooting a paper target with a .22 all day and then bringing out the 50 CAL. WOW


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## shaela21

My view is this: as long as you are towing safe and you are within your towing capabilities, then go for it. A lot of towing is common sense (or rather good sense







). Know your limits and tow within them. It is that simple.

Everyone will have a different view towards what they think is right, or wrong, especially when it comes to towing. I tow with a 1/2 ton truck, and I feel as though my set up is safe and I have never hesitated to tow anywhere. However, I would never try and tow something over a 25 footer as that puts me out of my towing comfort zone. Someone else may feel comfortable doing that, and more power to them. There is nothing wrong with a 1/2 ton, but like everything else, they have their limitations.

I log onto several different forums, and this one by far is the most considerate and friendly forum out there. Moderation here is a lot easier then some other (I was a moderator for a tent trailer forum, and it is a thankless job). I have never seen someone call someone else stupid, and if it did happen, the moderators were on the ball to get it changed. Thank you to all the moderators for a job well done.


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## GoVols

I would agree that the tow vehicle doesn't initiate sway, but it certainly works to counteract sway from the trailer; on that point I have to disagree. The heavier truck, beefier suspension, E rated tires all work to overcome potential sway. A stock half ton is engineered for a smoother ride, generally has passenger rated tires and a lower payload capacity. I traded my Chevy half ton because I was at or slightly over my payload capacity. The trailer used to weigh more than my truck; now the truck weighs more than the trailer. The driving experience for me between the two trucks is a night and day difference. There is a distinct difference in the control and drive-ability behind the 3/4 ton.

As far as weight distribution is concerned, the half ton needed weight distribution to unload the hitch and the rear axle; it had a 600 lb limit without weight distribution. By contrast, the 3/4 ton's hitch can carry 1200 lbs without weight distribution. I technically don't need WD now except that I use a hitch that combines WD and sway control, so I need some pressure on the WD bars for sway control. Hooking up the trailer now squats the truck less than 1/2 inch and brings the truck closer to even weight distribution.

The power train was very, very different in my trucks. I still am amazed at the size of the 3/4's drive shaft and rear end; it's easily twice as big as the 1/2 ton's shaft. It also carries a medium duty truck's transmission, the same one found in commercial buses and trucks. (Put it this way, I go to the local Kenworth dealer to buy the transmission filter!)

As far as the price of diesel is concerned, I'm FAR, FAR better off with the diesel than with the gasser; I get about 16% better mileage not towing and 50%-70% better mileage towing.

Do I have more truck than I need? Absolutely. Can 1/2 tons tow campers within their limits? Absolutely.

Am I glad I made the switch? Hello? Are you not listening?


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## navycranes

OK I stand corrected. Nobody has come out and called someone stupid for buying a TT and having a half ton. But I am sure some people have felt pretty stupid when they have brought their new baby home and log in to celebrate and get told by 20 other people that that their truck is not good enough (or even dangerous) for the job.

The only way you will know if you are over is to head to the scale.


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## Sayonara

Please reference specific posts where our members have called others stupid, I dont think they exist.

I was told by a boat salesman that i could tow my 11k lb boat with an Explorer, why I asked, would you say that? " cause we tow them around the storage lot here with a tractor, certainly an Explorer can do it". Good reasoning eh?

I have not seen anyone call another member stupid or anything close to it when discussing TV / TT combinations. All most people offer is their experience and suggestions on how to *run the numbers accurately and correctly* to determine whether their TV is suitable - LEGALLY. No more no less.

Rob, you cant dispute that being the proper way to determine if your tow vehicle is adequate for the TT. If your suggesting there are better ways, let us know.


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## skylane

Well its kinda like a lot of the gun and hunting forums I visit, for deer hunting everything from a centerfire 17 to a 340 mag is maddingly debated, ad nauseum, if you shoot a 17 things got to be right, shoot em with a 340 only 1 thing has to be right, same with the size of the tow rig, 1/2 ton you got to pay attention to details, slow up and slow down, watch the xwind...etc. With a 1 ton only gotta watch one thing, the fuel level.
1/2 ton harder on the driver and TV, no question. 1 ton relaxing and the truck is relaxed and will last longer. Big truck is best if you can afford it.
if you cant afford 35k for a new TV drive and use the half ton, it will work fine.


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## zachsmom

navycranes said:


> I would sure hope you would say WOW. You are pulling a 6,000 pound trailer with a truck that is designed to tow 16,000 pounds. I can believe it that you feel a difference. Kind of like shooting a paper target with a .22 all day and then bringing out the 50 CAL. WOW


I have to chime in here.

We came to this forum in August as potential OB owners asking for opinions and advice about towing an OB behind a Dodge Durango.

NOBODY said we were stupid for even considering pulling our potential OB with the Durango. Advice was freely offered by all who felt the urge to type, and most people shared their experiences with both TV sizes, if they had previously had a different/smaller vehicle.

Several people commented that it was not ideal but was doable. Others shared that they had at one time had a similar setup but had upsized later and were happier with the larger TV.

ALL of the posters were concerned about our SAFETY, and many made good suggestions that wouldn't break the bank.

Everyone makes their own choices for their own reasons, and finances often do play a part in decision-making, whether it's opting to add extras to a 1/2 ton to be able to pull a larger TT, opting for a smaller trailer or moving up to a larger TV. And, everyone on this forum knows that, which is why you see 'Congrats' and not 'Oh, that's nice' when someone finds a good deal on a newer/larger/different TV.

In the end, it's not about what you use to tow. It's HOW you tow with it. If you are within weight limits and feel safe, great. If you take the time and put in the effort to make your rig safe for not only you and your family, but for the rest of us out on the road, even better.

We never did pull the OB with the Durango - we fell into a great deal on a used 1-ton.

Did we buy it because of what people said here? No.

Would we have towed with the Durango if we hadn't found the truck? Yes.

Is the 1-ton overkill? Maybe, but now I can take three kids, the dog, and the bikes along without having that creepy feeling on the back of my neck.

Owning a larger TV doesn't make me a bad person, doesn't change the way I drive, and doesn't make me an idiot with deep pockets. What it does do is give me the knowledge that I can pull my OB wherever the heck I want to take it, without worrying about being the person who causes a wreck and gets people killed because I didn't bother to learn what I needed to know before I left home.


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## Airboss

navycranes said:


> Owning a larger TV doesn't make me a bad person, doesn't change the way I drive, and doesn't make me an idiot with deep pockets. What it does do is give me the knowledge that I can pull my OB wherever the heck I want to take it, without worrying about being the person who causes a wreck and gets people killed because I didn't bother to learn what I needed to know before I left home.


Hear hear!!! Well said!!!


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## skippershe

Oh my....

As was previously stated here a couple of times...most of us speak from experience and are just trying to save others from having to beat a path down a road that we have already travelled on.

You tow with what you're comfortable with and we'll do the same


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## sleecjr

navycranes said:


> Congratulations on your new Chevy. With the price of diesel it is no small wonder why dealers are trying to get rid of these trucks. If you got the cash its defiantly a buyers market.


Yes diesel is more expensive, but it gets 1.5 times the mpg. So until its 1.5 time more money, its still cheaper.


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## CamperAndy

I told you this would be a can of worms.

24 posts in less then 12 hours and most of those hours were over night when most people sleep. Please keep it on the straight and narrow or it will not last.


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## Nathan

I ran the numbers with my 28RSDS and went ahead and towed it with my 1/2 ton. I didn't care if it was slow going up hills or that I was right at my max carrying capacity for the truck. I had a dual cam sway control which, once set-up correctly, controlled sway well. However over 1 summer I had 2 panic manuvers and one terrible cross wind gust. The wind gust pushed me almost to the reflectors on the shoulder. The 2 panic manuvers were reduced to me holding on and praying the other car would get out of my way. I considered all of the mods to improve the 1/2 ton. However, as others have mentioned, a 3/4 ton is not that much more than a 1/2 ton if you compare apples to apples(i.e. similar powertrains/options). Sure, while I was at it, I choose to sink another $10k into options to go from a 5.4L XLT with few options to a 6.4L Diesel Lariat, but that was MY choice and did nothing to improve my towing safety. Comparing equal trucks in the two lineups does not yield that big of a difference in cost.

Additionally, I always encourage people to run the numbers for weight and then provide input on my personal towing experiences. Everyone has the right to make their own decisions, but if you ask, I will answer the question.

Finally, after towing with a 3/4 or 1 ton, I would not want to go back (even before my little upgrade.....)


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## Nathan

CamperAndy said:


> I told you this would be a can of worms.
> 
> 24 posts in less then 12 hours and most of those hours were over night when most people sleep. Please keep it on the straight and narrow or it will not last.


Yes Andy, of course it is a can of worms, but isn't it nice that we can go through 24 posts with relatively calm, rational discussions?


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## camping479

Towed with a 1/2 ton for a long time, it was right at it's gross vehicle weight but did a good job. When it started to cost too much to keep running we bought a 3/4 ton, completely different towing experience. There's no denying the 1/2 ton did a good job, the 3/4 ton just does a much better job.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find somebody who tows a trailer that switched back to a 1/2 ton from a 3/4 ton.

Mike


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## vikecowboy

What's wrong with Half Tons?

Nothing if you have a newer generation Tundra!


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## Collinsfam_WY

Boy am I ever glad that Outbackers here talked some sense into me when we were first looking at campers. I have a "real" 1/2 ton built prior to the tow wars heating up where 3/4 tons have became 1/2 tons in many respects so that the highly paid marketing geniuses can trumpet being #1. Thank you Outbackers for educating me and not only that - thank you for doing so in a kind but firm manner backed up with facts so that I ended up educating myself and arriving at the sobering reality that towing that dream-camper 28RSDS was not a good idea.

I don't recall anyone being called stupid or referred to with another similarly condescending term. I do recall folks such as myself being warned that what they were about to do had some shortcomings that should be taken seriously. Now, towing my 23RS with the truck I currently have, I am "ever so" grateful to Outbackers and their having cared enough about a total stranger such as myself to take the time and effort to open my eyes to so dadgum many things that they were closed to.

My next TV will be 3/4 ton.

-CC


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## KosinTrouble

I personally like my half ton and it does a great job towing. Done camping trips from 100km round trip to over 6000km round trip. Never had any issues always been able to keep speed. Even at the scales I have always been within weight limits.

As long as you are within limits of the truck I see no problem with 1/2 tons. But that being said, to each their own. I would not feel safe towing a trailer any bigger than I have with a 1/2 ton. Thats my choice, if someone else feels they are safe towing it, and are within the weight limits then I say have fun.

Kos


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## Ghosty

Airboss said:


> Look...as the others have said, nobody here is calling anyone STUPID. Period. We've all been there (personally, I was towing a 26" TT with a Land Rover LR3) and we all hate to see anyone fall into the RV Dealer's trap of "That'll tow anything!!!"


Holy Crap - Towing a 26TT with a landrover -- now that's just plain CRAZY -- LOL


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## tdvffjohn

navycranes said:


> Thanks everyone for your comments. I have eddited my post to remove pretty much everything I said since this forum doesn't allow me to delete my post (or at least I cant figure out how)
> 
> All the good conversation has ended and now people are just trying to pick fights. It was a good 24 hours but I recomend the the mods delete this thread.


Rarely will you see a thread deleted, this thread certainly does not warrant it. I believe the conversation was very civil as people were defending the forum.

John

In truth, no you are not able to delete a post (edit yes), it has actually helped with keeping things civil.


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## kjp1969

First, I didn't read every post in this thread, but that won't stop me from throwing in my $.02.

Many use the bulk of a 3/4 ton truck as their measure of safety towards overall stability of the TV/TT combo. There's nothing wrong with that- A big 'ole TV will go a long way to keep a swaying trailer pointed straight. The downside of this "bigger hammer" approach is increased cost of the TV and

After trashing a new outback and Explorer, we were tempted to get a 3/4 suburban, but went instead with a Hensley arrow and a Sequoia, which (as if you don't know this by now) uses physics to solve trailer sway issues. I don't want to get into a Hensley discussion, but suffice it to say that it works, and if you don't think so, you're welcome to come on over and drive mine to see for yourself.

There's also the drivetrain issue- bigger trucks usually have heavier duty drivetrains which tow heavier loads with less wear and tear. In that respect, I wish we had a 3/4 ton truck. Our Sequoia has pulled our trailer all over California, including up over 9000' passes, but I could always do for more power and the piece of mind that a HD drivetrain would offer.


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## Sayonara

Ghosty said:


> Look...as the others have said, nobody here is calling anyone STUPID. Period. We've all been there (personally, I was towing a 26" TT with a Land Rover LR3) and we all hate to see anyone fall into the RV Dealer's trap of "That'll tow anything!!!"


Holy Crap - Towing a 26TT with a landrover -- now that's just plain CRAZY -- LOL 























[/quote]

If I recall i think i called Airboss STUPID a couple times for doing that. But to call him CRAZY, now thats just mean....























*IM KIDDING !!* Actually i think you ponied up the 1-ton before i did!


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## kyoutback

tdvffjohn said:


> Thanks everyone for your comments. I have eddited my post to remove pretty much everything I said since this forum doesn't allow me to delete my post (or at least I cant figure out how)
> 
> All the good conversation has ended and now people are just trying to pick fights. It was a good 24 hours but I recomend the the mods delete this thread.


Rarely will you see a thread deleted, this thread certainly does not warrant it. I believe the conversation was very civil as people were defending the forum.

John

In truth, no you are not able to delete a post (edit yes), it has actually helped with keeping things civil.
[/quote]

I'm sorry I missed the original post. I would like to have read it. I think if someone comes on this forum and asks everyones opinion on their TV/Trailer combo the members here will give them honest, experienced answers. If those answers don't happen to be good news some may get upset because they really wanted someone to back them up. Sorry sometimes the truth hurts. There is absolutely nothing wrong with 1/2 ton trucks as long as you don't try to tow the biggest camper you can find.

No matter what you have bottom, line the weights, length, hitch etc. all have to add up to safe towing.

There's no name calling or flaming on this board. In fact sometimes I think it's a little too sickening sweet here.







I think we should mix it up a little sometimes. J/K really. Don't flame me bro!!


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## Sayonara

kyoutback said:


> There's no name calling or flaming on this board. In fact sometimes I think it's a little too sickening sweet here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think we should mix it up a little sometimes. J/K really. Don't flame me bro!!


I tried to do that a couple posts up.....


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## egregg57

For me, and the advice I try to give, it's about the numbers. A rig is under the maximums or it's not. If it's over any of those limits, it is not a desirable set-up and may/could/might cause an accident. possibly a serious one, possibly a fatal one. Possibly a family member. Maybe someone elses family member.

It would be irresponsible for anyone here to say that someone is "okay" running an overloaded or close to overloaded vehicle. Because that is not the case.

One thing about Outbackers is that 99.99% of the people here care what happens to one another. We attend rallys together, we are freinds and some of us are pretty much family. We have even remodeled someones house, while they were gone, with out there knowledge, and okay it burnt down, but that's another story.

Perhaps sometimes it is the way an idea or opinion is introduced that ruffles feathers.

I beleve we are all after the same thing. To get outdoors, enjoy nature for a little while with our families. To sit in our Lafumas with a cold drink of choice and watch as other campers walk by and drool at our gleaming white rigs.....ahem....sorry.

No one here on Outbackers should be trolling for an arguement. We have some good moderators that will take care of that sort of thing.

And finally, towing in general, and TV's such as 1500's, 1/2 and 3/4 tons are my thing. I have towed with a Ford Explorer Sport Trac, Ford Ranger, Ford Expedition, Chevy Silverado 1500HD and my beloved Ford F-250. I have towed Pop-up's, Hybrids and Travel trailers.

Each one of those TV's has thier own limitations and strong points. The end desired result is to use a vehicle for it's capabilities and attributes with out challenging the vehicle by pressing those limits. It ensures a safe, solid ride and affords the power to be able to handle emergencies without losing control.

It's all about Outbacker Love, Man! Drink the Kool Aid! No one wants anyone else to get hurt because they didn't know.

Eric

(AKA Outbackerman)


----------



## mmblantz

I've towed with both and yes you CAN tow with a 1/2 to but when you move up to a 3/4 it's like day and night. Also, you don't have to spend 50K on one. You can get one about 5-7yrs old for about 10K and usually have never even been used to tow. ---Mike


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## Airboss

Sayonara said:


> Look...as the others have said, nobody here is calling anyone STUPID. Period. We've all been there (personally, I was towing a 26" TT with a Land Rover LR3) and we all hate to see anyone fall into the RV Dealer's trap of "That'll tow anything!!!"


Holy Crap - Towing a 26TT with a landrover -- now that's just plain CRAZY -- LOL 























[/quote]

If I recall i think i called Airboss STUPID a couple times for doing that. But to call him CRAZY, now thats just mean....























[/quote]










Very funny! Seriously, that really made me laugh - and I needed it today!


----------



## Sean Woodruff

Just to keep the can of worms open...

I've towed a 34', 10,000# Airstream THOUSANDS of miles with a Cadillac Deville (yes, that's a car!).


----------



## NHRA Larry

I was a true believer that a half ton was good enough. I have a 30rls and my tv was a 2005 Dodge 1500, hemi, factory tow etc. I installed a superchip and put 10 ply LT rated tires on it. Both of those mods helped alot. Everything was going along fine for over a year. The coming across the mountains heading home from Bristol, TN, my transmission starting acting up. I managed to struggle home. The tranny oil smelled burnt, I did a oil and filter change, but with no warrenty left I had lost confidence in the truck.

I ended up trading the 1500 in for a Ram 2500 mega cab, hemi, etc etc. On my first tow, I noticed a real difference in handling. I now feel that I can relax and not have to worry about the blast from the next big rig coming. I say that as long as your aware of the limitations of towing with a 1/2 ton, go for it.

Larry


----------



## Sayonara

Sean Woodruff said:


> Just to keep the can of worms open...
> 
> I've towed a 34', 10,000# Airstream THOUSANDS of miles with a Cadillac Deville (yes, that's a car!).


One of those special 1-ton, diesel, 4x4 Devilles, right ?


----------



## matty1

And there are vast differences in sway "control" ...friction types work to reduce the sway after it starts, where as other types such as the reese DCHP work to prevent it from starting, basically locking the trailer and truck as one unit...etc, etc...I experiences a world of difference


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## kyoutback

matty1 said:


> And *there are vast differences in sway "control"* ...friction types work to reduce the sway after it starts, where as other types such as the reese DCHP work to prevent it from starting, basically locking the trailer and truck as one unit...etc, etc...I experiences a world of difference


Do you realize what you've done!!!


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## GarethsDad

We bought our 25rss before we found this website. Our plan was to tow a camper behind the DWs diesel tahoe. The salesman said " sure it will pull it, It's a diesel", and it would pull it, but the short wheelbase was going to give me an ulcer. If we lived and drove on the flats we would be ok ,but when we hit the mountains of Pennsylvania it became a white knuckle ride. I looked for a used truck that had the same size interior as the tahoe and this left out most 1/2 ton trucks. I went with the biggest truck I could afford at the time a used f350 supercrew ($10,200). Is it overkill yes. Do I feel better when towing yes, knowing that the TT weighs less then the truck and the wheelbase is long enough to smooth out the ride. James


----------



## ember

My dad said "buy the biggest truck you can afford, and tow accordingly"


----------



## GlenninTexas

First let me say I'm appalled, appalled I say, that any members would be anything to sweet to each other!





























Secondly let me give a bit of a different perspective.

When I bought my Ram 2500 CDT 4x4 I had a Holiday Rambler alumilite that weighed 3800# dry. I certainly didn't need the 3/4 ton, but darn it that was the truck of my dreams and what I wanted. I justified it by promising I 'd keep this truck for at least 10 years. Next Nov, that will happen.
Anyway, I sold the Holiday Rambler and a few months later decided to buy another RV. As we looked for a regular TT, we came across the Outback 5th wheel and immediately fell in love with it. Luckily, I had the truck to pull it without reservation.
So the moral of this story is "Don't count your chickens before they hatch" -- No wait that's not it, its "Be prepared", or is that something to do with the boy scouts. Oh well you get the idea.

Regards, Glenn


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## CamperAndy

Sean Woodruff said:


> Just to keep the can of worms open...
> 
> I've towed a 34', 10,000# Airstream THOUSANDS of miles with a Cadillac Deville (yes, that's a car!).


Can you say "The Long, Long Trailer"

"Lucy you have some splaning to do!!"

Sorry not sure how to type like Rick Ricardo speaks. The


----------



## Sean Woodruff

I think after four pages of replies one thing is obvious... there are many factors involved in towing a trailer safely and comfortably.

The suspension of the vehicle is ONE of them.

The wheel base is another.

The overhang behind the rear axle of the tow vehicle

The tires.

The speed you tow.

The length of the trailer.

The weight of the trailer. Total weight AND tongue weight.

The loading balance of the trailer.

The weather.

The road conditions.

The traffic.

And last, but certainly not least, the hitch. (hopefully that mention is taken in light of completeness of the list and NOT advertising.)

All of these things can be debated and many people will debate that their experience with any of them can easily be transferred to anyone else. With all of these things factoring into safe towing *it would be extremely rare that any two of us would ever have ALL of these things be exactly the same.
*

So, all that considered, these threads can go on, and on, and on without any real conclusions. I have seen hundreds of them on various forums. However, THIS forum seems to really be a great community that can post opinions and have fun doing it. I commend all of you for that.


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## CamperAndy

"Lucy you have some splaning to do!!"

But it is nice to hear we can have fun doing it!


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## wolfwood

Sean Woodruff said:


> All of these things can be debated and many people will debate that their experience with any of them can easily be transferred to anyone else. With all of these things factoring into safe towing *it would be extremely rare that any two of us would ever have ALL of these things be exactly the same.*


FINALLY!!!









Thank you, Sean!


----------



## Carey

GoVols said:


> I would agree that the tow vehicle doesn't initiate sway, but it certainly works to counteract sway from the trailer; on that point I have to disagree. The heavier truck, beefier suspension, E rated tires all work to overcome potential sway. A stock half ton is engineered for a smoother ride, generally has passenger rated tires and a lower payload capacity. I traded my Chevy half ton because I was at or slightly over my payload capacity. The trailer used to weigh more than my truck; now the truck weighs more than the trailer. The driving experience for me between the two trucks is a night and day difference. There is a distinct difference in the control and drive-ability behind the 3/4 ton.
> 
> As far as weight distribution is concerned, the half ton needed weight distribution to unload the hitch and the rear axle; it had a 600 lb limit without weight distribution. By contrast, the 3/4 ton's hitch can carry 1200 lbs without weight distribution. I technically don't need WD now except that I use a hitch that combines WD and sway control, so I need some pressure on the WD bars for sway control. Hooking up the trailer now squats the truck less than 1/2 inch and brings the truck closer to even weight distribution.
> 
> The power train was very, very different in my trucks. I still am amazed at the size of the 3/4's drive shaft and rear end; it's easily twice as big as the 1/2 ton's shaft. It also carries a medium duty truck's transmission, the same one found in commercial buses and trucks. (Put it this way, I go to the local Kenworth dealer to buy the transmission filter!)
> 
> As far as the price of diesel is concerned, I'm FAR, FAR better off with the diesel than with the gasser; I get about 16% better mileage not towing and 50%-70% better mileage towing.
> 
> Do I have more truck than I need? Absolutely. Can 1/2 tons tow campers within their limits? Absolutely.
> 
> Am I glad I made the switch? Hello? Are you not listening?


Medium dutys use an Allison 3000.. Yours is a 1000.

Carey


----------



## Carey

NHRA Larry said:


> I was a true believer that a half ton was good enough. I have a 30rls and my tv was a 2005 Dodge 1500, hemi, factory tow etc. I installed a superchip and put 10 ply LT rated tires on it. Both of those mods helped alot. Everything was going along fine for over a year. The coming across the mountains heading home from Bristol, TN, my transmission starting acting up. I managed to struggle home. The tranny oil smelled burnt, I did a oil and filter change, but with no warrenty left I had lost confidence in the truck.
> 
> I ended up trading the 1500 in for a Ram 2500 mega cab, hemi, etc etc. On my first tow, I noticed a real difference in handling. I now feel that I can relax and not have to worry about the blast from the next big rig coming. I say that as long as your aware of the limitations of towing with a 1/2 ton, go for it.
> 
> Larry


Larry both the 1500 and 2500 share the same tranny if both have hemis. In fact you get the same tranny if you buy a 3500 hemi dually.

Carey


----------



## Carey

I tow professionally with a dodge dually... When I go camping I leave that rattle trap diesel and hop in my hemi 1/2 dodge, towing 7500lbs with a 1200 lb tongue weight... But I have a lil somethin to help me...

If I was stuck without my lil helper, I would have no choice in using my dually for my campin trips..

1/2 tons have there place for some trailers.

3/4 and 1 tons have there place too... They can pull em all.

Carey


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## MJRey

I think many of 1/2 ton trucks are fine tow vehicles when operated within their payload and towing limits. The big difference I noted between 1/2 ton and 3/4 - 1 ton class trucks last year when I was shopping for a new tow vehicle was the way the payload and towing ratings were related. On most of the 1/2 ton trucks the gross combined vehicle weight rating (GCVWR) was the empty weight + the tow rating. On the 3/4 - 1 ton trucks the GCVWR was usually the empty weight of the truck + most of the payload capacity + the tow rating. Practically this means that with a 1/2 ton truck you need to watch the GCVWR and payload ratings closely as the trailer gets close to the tow rating. With the 3/4 - 1 ton trucks you've got a lot more ability to carry stuff in the truck if you've got a heavy trailer.


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## AZthunderations

I have watched with interest, this discussion. I tow with a half ton Ford Supercrew. It has a factory tow package that provides extra engine cooling and a big trans cooler. If I had to have a 3/4 or a 1 ton to tow, I'd go back to a pop-up because I don't ONLY tow with this truck, I drive it daily. Daily driving a 3/4 or 1 ton around town would eat me alive at the gas/diesel pump and quickly spend the bucks that I use for pleasure (camping).
Many half tons now have boxed frames and outboard shocks and 4 wheel discs. Equip them with a few options, upgrade the tires, and you have a pretty good TV. You need to stay within it's capabilities, (mines 8400 lbs) weight wise and wheelbase plays a major role to help control any sway.
We just towed our trailer back from Las Vegas, through the mountain area of Hoover Dam, across interstates and then the long rolling hills of I-40 and I-17 to Flagstaff and on to Phoenix. We did not set any land speed records, but did not hold up traffic either. Got down to 55 on a few hills and drove 65-70 on the flat. Averaged about 12 MPG. Now I'm unhooked and driving daily at 18-20 MPG.
If I were a full timer, I'd want a bigger trailer and therefore a bigger TV. I'm not, I'm a long weekend camper. 
As many have stated, Outback advertises that they have half ton towable trailers.
We could discuss this till the cows come home, but in all actuallity, if you're happy and within the perameters of safety, enjoy your trailer and just go camping.
Those that ask if their TV is right for their trailer should be given the facts. Opinions are great and sometimes very helpful, but we each have one and it can confuse the issue. 
I'm thinking Kenworth or Peterbuilt might be my next TV.......LOL


----------



## kycamper

AZthunderations said:


> I have watched with interest, this discussion. I tow with a half ton Ford Supercrew. It has a factory tow package that provides extra engine cooling and a big trans cooler. If I had to have a 3/4 or a 1 ton to tow, I'd go back to a pop-up because I don't ONLY tow with this truck, I drive it daily. Daily driving a 3/4 or 1 ton around town would eat me alive at the gas/diesel pump and quickly spend the bucks that I use for pleasure (camping).
> Many half tons now have boxed frames and outboard shocks and 4 wheel discs. Equip them with a few options, upgrade the tires, and you have a pretty good TV. You need to stay within it's capabilities, (mines 8400 lbs) weight wise and wheelbase plays a major role to help control any sway.
> We just towed our trailer back from Las Vegas, through the mountain area of Hoover Dam, across interstates and then the long rolling hills of I-40 and I-17 to Flagstaff and on to Phoenix. We did not set any land speed records, but did not hold up traffic either. Got down to 55 on a few hills and drove 65-70 on the flat. Averaged about 12 MPG. Now I'm unhooked and driving daily at 18-20 MPG.
> If I were a full timer, I'd want a bigger trailer and therefore a bigger TV. I'm not, I'm a long weekend camper.
> As many have stated, Outback advertises that they have half ton towable trailers.
> We could discuss this till the cows come home, but in all actuallity, if you're happy and within the perameters of safety, enjoy your trailer and just go camping.
> Those that ask if their TV is right for their trailer should be given the facts. Opinions are great and sometimes very helpful, but we each have one and it can confuse the issue.
> I'm thinking Kenworth or Peterbuilt might be my next TV.......LOL


Just to add flavor to this thread, I tow with a Dodge Durango and logged 4000 miles this summer with it, in flats and mountains and it did very well at 65, of coarse, the Propride hitch helps. The Durango seats eight and gets good mileage when not towing and gets 12 mpg, even with the North Carolina mountains. Now everyone can chime in about the Durango versus 3/4 ton or 1/2 ton pickups


----------



## Sayonara

kycamper said:


> Just to add flavor to this thread, I tow with a Dodge Durango and logged 4000 miles this summer with it, in flats and mountains and it did very well at 65, of coarse, the Propride hitch helps. The Durango seats eight and gets good mileage when not towing and gets 12 mpg, even with the North Carolina mountains. Now everyone can chime in about the Durango versus 3/4 ton or 1/2 ton pickups


Im sure you have run the numbers but it seems that a Durango, 21RS and ProPride hitch is a pretty good combo !


----------



## sleecjr

AZthunderations said:


> Got down to 55 on a few hills and drove 65-70 on the flat. Averaged about 12 MPG. Now I'm unhooked and driving daily at 18-20 MPG.


Thats about what i get with the diesel. I can also tell you, your gas mileage is not the norm. Most dont get that much.


----------



## CamperAndy

sleecjr said:


> Got down to 55 on a few hills and drove 65-70 on the flat. Averaged about 12 MPG. Now I'm unhooked and driving daily at 18-20 MPG.


Thats about what i get with the diesel. I can also tell you, your gas mileage is not the norm. Most dont get that much.
[/quote]

Agreed if you are double digits when towing then you are not the norm at all. Don't for a second think that all 1/2 ton gasser get that good of mileage. BTW, your numbers are what I get with my 3500.


----------



## Carey

On a trip to Curtis's house in texas a while back my 1/2 ton dodge hemi with mds got 21.1 on the overhead and 20.2 in reality... I kept it right at 70 the whole way..

I have gotten 10 to 11 towing in the flats..

The mds really changes the hemis mileage.

Carey


----------



## AZthunderations

sleecjr said:


> Got down to 55 on a few hills and drove 65-70 on the flat. Averaged about 12 MPG. Now I'm unhooked and driving daily at 18-20 MPG.


Thats about what i get with the diesel. I can also tell you, your gas mileage is not the norm. Most dont get that much.
[/quote]
My 2001 SuperCrew 2WD has always gotten good milage, be it a fluke or whatever, one of the many reasons I keep it. It's a 5.4 with 3.55 limited slip. I know that a 3.73 would tow better, but again, towing is it's second job. 
I know others with the same model truck get as little as 12MPG empty and "Lord knows what" if they hooked up a trailer. 
I run E rated tires and you're all gonna love this. I'm an old hot rod/classic car guy, so the truck is lowered







2 1/4 inches in the front and 2 inches in the rear. The big tires raise it back up an inch so ground clearance is about normal. I don't know why, but it all seems to work. Regular maintinance and 131,000 miles of sensible driving pays off in the long run. Hope to see you all camping along the way.


----------



## Nathan

AZthunderations said:


> Got down to 55 on a few hills and drove 65-70 on the flat. Averaged about 12 MPG. Now I'm unhooked and driving daily at 18-20 MPG.


Thats about what i get with the diesel. I can also tell you, your gas mileage is not the norm. Most dont get that much.
[/quote]
My 2001 SuperCrew 2WD has always gotten good milage, be it a fluke or whatever, one of the many reasons I keep it. It's a 5.4 with 3.55 limited slip. I know that a 3.73 would tow better, but again, towing is it's second job. 
I know others with the same model truck get as little as 12MPG empty and "Lord knows what" if they hooked up a trailer. 
I run E rated tires and you're all gonna love this. I'm an old hot rod/classic car guy, so the truck is lowered







2 1/4 inches in the front and 2 inches in the rear. The big tires raise it back up an inch so ground clearance is about normal. I don't know why, but it all seems to work. Regular maintinance and 131,000 miles of sensible driving pays off in the long run. Hope to see you all camping along the way.








[/quote]
Did you correct your Odometer for those bigger tires?


----------



## wolfwood

sleecjr said:


> Got down to 55 on a few hills and drove 65-70 on the flat. Averaged about 12 MPG. Now I'm unhooked and driving daily at 18-20 MPG.


Thats about what i get with the diesel. I can also tell you, your gas mileage is not the norm. Most dont get that much.
[/quote]
Matches my '07 Tundra, too


----------



## rdvholtwood

I am actually glad I stumbled upon this post. Currently, we will be using our son's Dodge 1500 to pick up our new 250RS and I am sure it will do fine, but, I am leaning towards a 3/4 ton based upon what I have been reading and the fact that where we live there are LOTS of steep hills. Also, to take the load of the TV when towing.

Rick


----------



## cabullydogs

After towing our TT a few times now, we are leaning towards a different approach....










While it may not be a 3/4 or 1/2 ton, it is a diesel. And who needs weight distributing anyway!


----------



## AZthunderations

All speeds and milages are calculated on the larger tires. They actually decreased my speedometer/odometer by 10%. Now when I'm cruising at 50 MPH on the speedo, I'm actually doing 55. My wife likes to travel 5MPH under the limit, so by leaving the speedometer to factory settings, I can make her happy and be running at the posted limit too.
I would encourage anyone towing with a 1/2 ton to consider "E" rated tires. The whimmpy "C's" that are original equipment are really nice if you want that smooth, cushy ride, but for towing, those 1 or 2 ply sidewalls allow a lot of sway. If your truck has a bunch of miles on it, check the front suspension too. Loose or worn ball joints, idler arms, anything worn will cause sloppy steering that may not show up until you latch a few thousand pounds to your bumper.
I felt very safe towing with my long wheelbase SuperCrew without a sway control. Never had a problem with cross winds or 18 wheelers. After reading through this forum, I'm ordering a sway control as an insurance policy. Thanks guys!!!
There have been replies stating all the components of a safe TV/trailer package, but one item has been avoided or skipped. That's the nut behind the wheel. Actions, reactions and over reactions are even more critical when towing. If you're towing a 150 pound trailer behind a motorcycle or hammering an 18 wheeler across country, it just takes a second for all hell to break loose. My Dad was a trucker (Naptha tankers for awhile) and I learned a lot from him over the years. After he retired, he got a pic'em'up truck and a little TT and went camping. That's probably what we all should do..............Happy camping.









Nathan said:


> Got down to 55 on a few hills and drove 65-70 on the flat. Averaged about 12 MPG. Now I'm unhooked and driving daily at 18-20 MPG.


Thats about what i get with the diesel. I can also tell you, your gas mileage is not the norm. Most dont get that much.
[/quote]
My 2001 SuperCrew 2WD has always gotten good milage, be it a fluke or whatever, one of the many reasons I keep it. It's a 5.4 with 3.55 limited slip. I know that a 3.73 would tow better, but again, towing is it's second job. 
I know others with the same model truck get as little as 12MPG empty and "Lord knows what" if they hooked up a trailer. 
I run E rated tires and you're all gonna love this. I'm an old hot rod/classic car guy, so the truck is lowered







2 1/4 inches in the front and 2 inches in the rear. The big tires raise it back up an inch so ground clearance is about normal. I don't know why, but it all seems to work. Regular maintinance and 131,000 miles of sensible driving pays off in the long run. Hope to see you all camping along the way.








[/quote]
Did you correct your Odometer for those bigger tires?








[/quote]


----------



## OutbackPM

AZthunderations said:


> There have been replies stating all the components of a safe TV/trailer package, but one item has been avoided or skipped. That's the nut behind the wheel.


 Very valid point on any safety issue. Included with that is the ability for the same nut to use the hand lever on the brake controller when needed.

On an empty road I would practice reaching for it while keeping wheel control just to give me confidnce that I could do it. Correct controller set up is then essential to have it effective. Too much gain could lock your wheels in slippery conditions while too little would not have enough straightening effect.


----------



## clarkely

Sean Woodruff said:


> Just to keep the can of worms open...
> 
> I've towed a 34', 10,000# Airstream THOUSANDS of miles with a Cadillac Deville (yes, that's a car!).


I would love a picture of that for the weight police on rv.net


----------



## kyoutback

clarkely said:


> Just to keep the can of worms open...
> 
> I've towed a 34', 10,000# Airstream THOUSANDS of miles with a Cadillac Deville (yes, that's a car!).


I would love a picture of that for the weight police on rv.net
[/quote]


----------



## Junebug

FWIW, I tow a 2008 RSDS with my 200 Expe with the factory Heavey Duty TP. It tows like a champ!!!


----------



## TripperBob

I tow our 27rsds with a half ton crew cab and have yet to have a problem. Some might argue that I am on the verge of overloading with a truck full of family, gear, and so on with the trailer behind. I agree that it is all about your level of comfort and ability to control the towing combination and to control yourself as well.


----------



## Compulynx

I just got back from a mountain trip towing a 26RKS with a GMC 1500 C/C 1/2 ton and had no problems whatsoever. Went up and down two 7% grades. Having the proper sense to use the low gears and very little brakes on the downhill helps. And on the uphill, I did drop back to 1st gear in the steepest parts just to keep the engine happy, Even then, I was passing 18 wheelers on the way up.....

I am at about 80% of my truck's towing capacity.

I averaged 10.6 MPG for the trip. Terrain was a combo of mountains and rolling hills.

I am happy.

In 20 plus years driving motor homes and TT's, I have seen quite a few folks pulling with a 1 ton that I did not want to get near....

Like someone said, it has a lot to do with the nut behind the wheel.

By the way. The best mod I have ever done to any tow vehicle is the Firestone air springs. I can not say enough about their ability to smooth the ride while towing.....I will take them over a W/D hitch anytime.....

C


----------



## CamperAndy

Compulynx said:


> By the way. The best mod I have ever done to any tow vehicle is the Firestone air springs. I can not say enough about their ability to smooth the ride while towing.....I will take them over a W/D hitch anytime.....
> 
> C


Air bags are not the same thing as a weight distribution hitch.

Air bags just compensate for over loaded rear spring.

Weight distribution hitches actually change the location where the weight is carried.


----------



## Compulynx

CamperAndy said:


> By the way. The best mod I have ever done to any tow vehicle is the Firestone air springs. I can not say enough about their ability to smooth the ride while towing.....I will take them over a W/D hitch anytime.....
> 
> C


Air bags are not the same thing as a weight distribution hitch.

Air bags just compensate for over loaded rear spring.

Weight distribution hitches actually change the location where the weight is carried.
[/quote]

I was referring to the ride comfort. I only run 25-30 lbs in them. At 600 lbs tounge weight, I am not even close to overloading the springs....The bags just seem to make the rear of the truck "float"....

Yes, W/D hitches can compensate when you are over the tounge weight load for the vehicle. They also will transfer some weight to the front wheels of the T/V. I know there is even one that is supposed to move the tounge center of gravity to the center of the rear axle. Can't remember the name of it.

Then their are the W/D hitches with built in sway control...

Makes your head spin.....

C


----------



## wolfwood

Compulynx said:


> I know there is even one that is supposed to move the tounge center of gravity to the center of the rear axle. Can't remember the name of it.


*Hensley Arrow*







(I believe the ProPride does the same)

The WD aspect of the Hensley (and, presumably, the ProPride) is great .... but the REAL benefit is in it's use of the laws of physics .... that there CAN BE NO SWAY!


----------



## Dub

This topic hits close to home for me and I can empathize with the OP and his feelings. I had a 4 cylinder Honda Element with a 1500lbs tow capacity and people told me I couldn't tow a pop-up...but I did and I towed it all over the place safely and had a blast being out. I got 15mpg towing, was withing my limits with a small pop-up, did what many others told me I couldn't do. I wasn't overweight, I didn't break any laws, and the vehicle towed safely within its limits. I really wanted to get back into RVing and people on a board like this discouraged me and let me down (not the people here but elsewhere).

Wife and I decided we liked it so much that we wanted a TT. I had a rough decision to make as I drive 3000 miles a month for work and then anything personal gets added onto that, so mileage was key. I decided on a V6 and a smaller lightweight TT. So I got a Tacoma with towing package which will tow 6500lbs and has a GCWR of 11,100lbs and got 22mpg when I wasn't towing. Picked up the biggest TT I felt I could safely tow which was a Fun Finder 250BHS, 26'7" long and 4300lbs dry, 550lbs fully loaded wet. We towed that rig all over New England through Maine, NH, and Vermont as well as the hills of WV, over 6000 miles. No sway, no wagging, no "Oh crap feelings" when stopping and not once did I ever feel the camper was coming around me. Sure I wasn't gonna win any races but I could keep 55-60mph on the hills. Again people told me I couldn't do it, that I needed a 1 Ton Chevy for this 25ft trailer designed to be towed by a V6. I ignored them and safely towed my rig and had fun, explored the country whereas if I listened to those people I would have just stayed at home because the V6 shouldn't have been towing anything but a pop up.

Once again we found ourself wanting something bigger. So once again we updated our TV. This time it was all politically and personally motivated. My Tundra cost $41,000 sticker, paid $32K and it will be paid off before the first payment is due. With this kind of money I could have afforded any truck I wanted, diesel, 1-ton, dually, the hole shebang. So why did I go with a 1/2 ton?? Every GM and Ford vehicle I have ever owned has let me down in big ways, they have failed me. We use Dodge at work and they were worse than the other two. My wife's $40K Volvo which was a product of Ford was hands down the worst car we have ever owned. It was in the shop every 5-7K miles. My $30K TransAm started failing right after the warranty and that was my dream car, I loved that thing to death but like all of my other GM cars once it's paid for and out of warranty I kept making payments in the form of repairs.

I'm 100% certain that a 3/4 or 1-ton truck would tow the 310BHS I'm getting like a dream, but unfortunately Toyota doesn't make one yet and I am done handing the Big 3 my hard earned cash. I refuse to help them, I think they should have to pay for their stupidity and should reap the rewards of the loss American consumers have forced upon them by not buying their poorly made vehicles. I really want one of them to fail and for the other two to strengthen from it, to learn a lesson and to start building quality and reliable cars once again and prove it over the next 10-20 years to the American public. If I can buy a cheap Hyundai and it drives 158K miles without anything including brake pads then GM should be able to build me a $30K+ Sports Car that doesn't break down in the first 50K with multiple issues.

I would struggle up hills with my 1/2ton for the next 20 years with my Toyota before I ever give the Big 3 any of my cash ever again, but fortunately the truck is a solid towing machine and doesn't struggle. It fits my needs and it won't let me down. I am towing a trailer within its limits, I have the biggest brakes in the 1/2ton class and can safely stop my trailer. The Big 3 have failed me and because of that I refuse to buy a 3/4 or 1 ton truck from them even if it would make my life easier. That is why I chose to tow with a 1/2 ton and all the while my views are different than others I can still respect your choices to give them money and tow with a bigger vehicle so long as you can respect mine. It fits my needs and I'm sure your trucks fit your needs.

I'll be here to encourage people with 1/2tons to get out and tow. I'll even encourage those with V6's to get something they are comfortable with that matches their towing level experience. The point is to get out and have fun and do it safely within your vehicles limits. It's not to make people feel bad and that they have to be like the others with bigger more expensive trucks that they may not be able to afford. RVing is about having fun and getting out and everyone should get the opportunity regardless of what they drive so long as it has a hitch.


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## kyoutback

I sense danger........................


----------



## jozway

I have 50,000 miles on my Dodge diesel 3/4 ton and have had no problems whatsoever. I feel that if you did tow your particular tt with a diesel you wouldnt look back. There is nothing wrong with the toyota as a tv. I personally would'nt tow that big of a tt with that truck but that's just me. Oh yeah im getting around 20+ on the freeway and about 13+ towing. The tundra will never see that kind of towing mileage. I would'nt give up on the big three just yet!!!


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## Dub

Actually I've towed with the Cummins plenty of times before and I'm not saying they don't pull well when they run. Dodge just recently lost the contract for our work Fleet to Ford because they couldn't keep them running, Ford is risking this contract to GM if these vehicles don't run any better. We optioned the sale of the vehicles to employees at 5 years or 100,000 miles and no one took a Ram or Dakota home for a steal because of the 100 or so we had there wasn't one that hadn't been in the shop more than once, that's what happens when you use them as real work trucks. Now Jeep on the other hand, the Cherokee's were sold out in minutes. It's a shame we couldn't keep Jeep, the Ford Explorer just isn't as good as getting out to those remote locations as the Jeeps were. Jeeps had very few problems compared to our Ram/Dakota fleet which is surprising since they are both made by Chrysler.


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## jozway

What is that you do?


----------



## jozway

jozway said:


> What is that you do?


 I mean where do you work?


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## Sayonara

Interesting.....


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## Dub

jozway said:


> What is that you do?


 I mean where do you work?
[/quote]

I work for an energy company. We have right of ways that stretch far into deep wildernesses and remote stations. Our fleet vehicles are used for everything from checking the properties to pulling mowers and tractors out to dig new lines, service the equipment, etc. That's where I got my start and I've had plenty of experience with Chrysler's poor excuse for vehicles--which is why they are the weakest link of the Big 3, how many other fleet contracts do you think they have lost in this economy when everyone scrutinizes their maintenance records? Sad to say with my personal disdain for Ford but they have failed fewer times overall than the Dodge's. I'll be happy to verify any claims of "no problems ever" with a VIN number. While our fleet contract is still with Ford we always maintain a smaller fleet of vehicles from the other two for comparison. Looks like GM may win the next contract if they are still around in 4 years.

And when comparing gas to diesel you have to adjust for the extra $1.00/gal for diesel. Gas is priced at $1.529 locally and diesel is $2.529 locally, meaning diesel cost 40% more (not to mention the extra $8000 cost of the engine). So my 10mpg towing, 16, city, 19 highway would need to be increased by 40% to be comparable to diesel that puts me at 14mpg towing, 22.4mpg city, 26.6mpg highway. Diesel maintenance is also higher, the Duramax need a new injector every 100K miles and that ain't cheap. Add in the extra maintenance and initial cost of the engine and that would put my mileage at 30mpg comparatively.

Not trying to be a jerk with my posts on this thread but the "you must have a 3/4-1ton truck" attitude is what scares a lot of people from forums like this. RV.net is about the worst ever at that and is mocked for it all over the internet. Fact is if someone has chosen a 1/2 ton for a certain reason such as myself, or it is all that someone can afford, you shouldn't be talking down to them and telling them all they can tow is a pup. Encourage them to get something within their trucks capabilities and to safely tow it and get out and have some fun. That's what I'm here for, to enjoy RVing and have some fun.


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## MJRey

Dub,

I can't really argue with any of your points and your info seems well founded on personal experience. I also think your Tundra is probably just fine for your trailer. I think any vehicle operated within its various limits (tow, GVWR, GCWR, etc.) is just fine when the right equipment is used (hitch, tow mirrors, and brake controller).

One thing I would note though is that the terrain you're towing in has a huge amount to do with how much power you need. In the relatively flat central and eastern part of the country there just are not the long steep grades where you can climb 4 to 6 thousand feet in just 10 miles. Most of those states don't have elevations much over 6,000 ft and usually much less, and yes I checked. When we towed with our Expedition it had a tow rating of 8,600 lbs (our OB is about 6,000 lbs) and loaded below the GCWR there were times when I was down in 1st/2nd gear with the engine screaming just to go 30 to 40 mph. Sometimes this was in the summer with temps near 90 to 100 F and the AC off to try and help. Going down the hills were sometimes even more challenging than going up. I guess given those experiences I tend to err on the side of suggesting more size and power is better.

I hope I have better luck with my new Dodge truck than your company did but so far it has been great pulling the OB up roads as high as 8,100 ft.


----------



## Dub

MJRey said:


> Going down the hills were sometimes even more challenging than going up. I guess given those experiences I tend to err on the side of suggesting more size and power is better.


I agree with you 100%. Pulling my 25ft trailer that maxed out my V6 with the Tundra is night and day. The Taco was maxed out, with the Tundra you don't know it's there. Pulling my popup with my V6 vs the 4-cyl Element was night and day. Bigger is always better, but some people have limits. Many times the limit is money and people are stuck with their 1/2 tons or smaller. Other times it is choice, I refuse to buy from the Big 3 until they get their act together--when they do (or when Toyota makes one) I'm getting a bigger truck and a 5er, but these companies have years of proving themselves to restore confidence in the many millions of Americans who are not buying their vehicles as well as me. I always suggest that people tow with the biggest truck they can afford or want to buy. But the point of the original poster and myself is that far too many times people on forums discourage people from RVing because they don't have the 3/4 or 1-ton truck. While bigger trucks are nice, they are not a necessity and people shouldn't be given a hard time for not having a bigger truck when all they wanna do is have some fun with their family. Experience plays a lot into it as well.


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## Nathan

Dub,

Glad to hear you are comfortable with your decision. When I had a pop-up, I ran right at the max weight for my TV and was fine. My personal experiences with the OB and a 1/2 ton were different. Again, I hope your experiences are better, but I wouldn't recommend the 28RSDS with a 1/2 ton and definetly wouldn't go over that.

This was a 1/2 ton vs 3/4-1 ton debate. Can we please keep the brands out of it. They are just the symbol on the grill when you are discussing the weights and capacities of a truck.


----------



## CamperAndy

Nathan said:


> Dub,
> 
> Glad to hear you are comfortable with your decision. When I had a pop-up, I ran right at the max weight for my TV and was fine. My personal experiences with the OB and a 1/2 ton were different. Again, I hope your experiences are better, but I wouldn't recommend the 28RSDS with a 1/2 ton and definetly wouldn't go over that.
> 
> This was a 1/2 ton vs 3/4-1 ton debate. Can we please keep the brands out of it. They are just the symbol on the grill when you are discussing the weights and capacities of a truck.


Nathan you are 100% correct. This does need to stay on track as brand wars are really not productive.

Dub challenging people that they are not telling the truth about trouble free trucks by saying you would do a vin history check is a little more confrontational they we like to see and it also does not prove anything. I could give you mine and in 50k it has never been to the dealer but I know there are others that have not made it 1k. There is not a single vehicle made that has not had issues, yours included.


----------



## kyoutback

Dub said:


> What is that you do?


 I mean where do you work?
[/quote]

I work for an energy company. We have right of ways that stretch far into deep wildernesses and remote stations. Our fleet vehicles are used for everything from checking the properties to pulling mowers and tractors out to dig new lines, service the equipment, etc. That's where I got my start and I've had plenty of experience with Chrysler's poor excuse for vehicles--which is why they are the weakest link of the Big 3, how many other fleet contracts do you think they have lost in this economy when everyone scrutinizes their maintenance records? Sad to say with my personal disdain for Ford but they have failed fewer times overall than the Dodge's. I'll be happy to verify any claims of "no problems ever" with a VIN number. While our fleet contract is still with Ford we always maintain a smaller fleet of vehicles from the other two for comparison. Looks like GM may win the next contract if they are still around in 4 years.

And when comparing gas to diesel you have to adjust for the extra $1.00/gal for diesel. Gas is priced at $1.529 locally and diesel is $2.529 locally, meaning diesel cost 40% more (not to mention the extra $8000 cost of the engine). So my 10mpg towing, 16, city, 19 highway would need to be increased by 40% to be comparable to diesel that puts me at 14mpg towing, 22.4mpg city, 26.6mpg highway. Diesel maintenance is also higher, the Duramax need a new injector every 100K miles and that ain't cheap. Add in the extra maintenance and initial cost of the engine and that would put my mileage at 30mpg comparatively.

Not trying to be a jerk with my posts on this thread but the "you must have a 3/4-1ton truck" attitude is what scares a lot of people from forums like this. RV.net is about the worst ever at that and is mocked for it all over the internet. Fact is if someone has chosen a 1/2 ton for a certain reason such as myself, or it is all that someone can afford, you shouldn't be talking down to them and telling them all they can tow is a pup. Encourage them to get something within their trucks capabilities and to safely tow it and get out and have some fun. That's what I'm here for, to enjoy RVing and have some fun.
[/quote]

Maybe it's just me but you seem to have a little bit of rv.net stuck to your shoe. Please wipe your feet when you come in here. Thanks.

p.s. I love my Chevy!!


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## rdvholtwood

I have been on this site for awhile and really have gained lots of information on TV's - based on all the posts I have read, I feel that the safest option for me is a 3/4 ton. I still have more shopping to do and more reading, but, to all, keep your suggestions coming - as I appreciate your input!! Thanks!


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## NJMikeC

Dub,

Your also only including "good " experiences. I for one have little doubt that 1/2 ton's can't handle larger trailers in emergency situations . They will get twisted around like pretzels by something of even or higher weight especially when they are "bumper pulls". The "safer" way is the right way and folks should advise the less educated on the subject along those lines . I would also make a bet that the safer way is also the cheaper way as it avoids those hidden upgrades that so many people undertake.

The plethora of folks who made the change from 1/2 ton to 3/4 ton have always patted themselves on the back for that decision.

It is all in perspective. My perspective on the new Tundra is that it is still just a 1/2 ton truck and would lull un-suspecting folks in to a false sense of security since it's power train can pull more then the rest of it can SAFELY handle! Last I read the super new brakes on the super new Tundra are shot at 30K miles just like every other 1/2 ton.

We have all been over this a million times and each time we go over it 10 more people made the change to the larger truck and are happy for it!


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## Sean Woodruff

Dub,

It is all anecdotal. That is, every post you read is based on the experience of the poster. You will never read a post about someone towing with a 3/4, or 1 ton, tow vehicle that has had an accident. Why would that person post? The masses will jump on them and tell them it was all their fault.

I have never towed with anything larger than a 1/2 ton, or less, with most over the "ratings." I don't want the ride of a heavy suspension when I'm not towing (over 90% of the time). I'm not breaking any laws and I'd put the safety of my rig up against any other on the test track.

I have also talked to hundreds of people that have had accidents with 3/4T and 1T tow vehicles. Again, they don't post on forums.

So, the bottom line is that you have to decide for yourself what works. You can "listen" to everyone else but most of the time you won't "hear" the negatives so you won't "hear" the entire story.


----------



## campfirenut

Sean Woodruff said:


> Dub,
> 
> It is all anecdotal. That is, every post you read is based on the experience of the poster. You will never read a post about someone towing with a 3/4, or 1 ton, tow vehicle that has had an accident. Why would that person post? The masses will jump on them and tell them it was all their fault.
> 
> I have never towed with anything larger than a 1/2 ton, or less, with most over the "ratings." I don't want the ride of a heavy suspension when I'm not towing (over 90% of the time). I'm not breaking any laws and I'd put the safety of my rig up against any other on the test track.
> 
> I have also talked to hundreds of people that have had accidents with 3/4T and 1T tow vehicles. Again, they don't post on forums.
> 
> So, the bottom line is that you have to decide for yourself what works. You can "listen" to everyone else but most of the time you won't "hear" the negatives so you won't "hear" the entire story.


X2

Bob


----------



## jozway

Is'nt it common sense that one runs between 75 to 85% of towing capacity?







Maybe you should get your company to buy a fleet of tundra's and let the employees beat on them like they stole it and see how they hold up. Obviosuley (sp) employees will not take care of company vehicles like they would there own. Any vehicle that is beat on daily is going to take a beating regardless of make. If you google tundra you can read many posts on other forums that are all negative. Does that mean there all bad? 
I'm glad that you are comfortable towing with your 1/2 ton and meeting it capacities. I hope that you never get into a situation were your trailer tows your truck!
I would just like to say in closing* I LOVE MY DODGE 3/4 TON CUMMINS DIESEL.*


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## Nathan

jozway said:


> Is'nt it common sense that one runs between 75 to 85% of towing capacity?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll address this question. I personally am comfortable towing up to the mfg's limits because after all, that is what the vehicle was designed for. I don't choose to go over for a variety of reasons, including my engineering background (the engineers I know, including myself tend to be a data driven, conservative group







). However, my F150 was maxed out with the 28RSDS on weight and the length made it far from a confindence inspiring tow.








The 1 ton fixed that by everything being heavier duty and designed for more weight than I was towing. It also doesn't hurt that the Super Duty weighs more than the OB did...

Now with 2 upgrades, I'm back near my max weights(for the 1 ton







), but this time due to the 5er's coupling, it is much more stable making for a comfortable towing experience.


----------



## CamperAndy

Sean Woodruff said:


> Dub,
> 
> It is all anecdotal. That is, every post you read is based on the experience of the poster. You will never read a post about someone towing with a 3/4, or 1 ton, tow vehicle that has had an accident. Why would that person post? The masses will jump on them and tell them it was all their fault.
> 
> I have never towed with anything larger than a 1/2 ton, or less, with most over the "ratings." I don't want the ride of a heavy suspension when I'm not towing (over 90% of the time). I'm not breaking any laws and I'd put the safety of my rig up against any other on the test track.
> 
> I have also talked to hundreds of people that have had accidents with 3/4T and 1T tow vehicles. Again, they don't post on forums.
> 
> So, the bottom line is that you have to decide for yourself what works. You can "listen" to everyone else but most of the time you won't "hear" the negatives so you won't "hear" the entire story.


Sean - you know that is not 100% true, there are plenty of people that will report an accident if they have one with a larger truck but lets take your logic to the other extreme. How many people that swear their 1/2 ton or less TV is the cats meow will post after an accident??

The real bottom line is use what you think is safe (including the hitch set up) and no matter what it is drive it expecting to get in trouble while towing, so drive defensively. The nut behind the wheel is the only thing that can control the situation.


----------



## Sean Woodruff

CamperAndy said:


> The real bottom line is use what you think is safe (including the hitch set up) and no matter what it is drive it expecting to get in trouble while towing, so drive defensively. The nut behind the wheel is the only thing that can control the situation.


Yes.


----------



## Dub

Differences aside, this has been a good chat. I almost had enough confidence in GM to buy a Duramax, actually, I had the deal in the works, but I was using a discount through work which gives me access to set prices below invoice and then add in any incentives and you get one heck of a deal. However, I revealed my cards too early in the deal and they refused to give me anything decent on my trade. Good thing this happened because at the time diesel prices were less than gas and my 4000 mile trip through New England last year would have cost a lot extra. Either way, I'm happy that things played out the way they did and I'm very happy with my lil 1/2ton towing at 80% capactiy. When I feel that the Big 3 have gotten their act together or Toyota makes a 3/4 or 1 ton I'll be getting a bigger ride no doubt. But for now I'm gonna see how many miles I can put on this Toyota, I've heard they are hard to kill.


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## wolfwood

Dub said:


> I've heard they are hard to kill.
























I love it!! Toyota apparently did too, as they use clips from this in one of their current TV ads!!

btw, sorry to burst the proverbial bubble, but I routinely get 22mpg (not towing) and 12mpg (towing) with my '07 Tundra. Granted, the Teton Mtns are much bigger and steeper than our East Coast mtns - but the Tundra seems to like them as we saw 24 mpg (not towing) and 10mpg (towing) out there this past summer


----------



## Dub

wolfwood said:


> I've heard they are hard to kill.
























I love it!! Toyota apparently did too, as they use clips from this in one of their current TV ads!!

btw, sorry to burst the proverbial bubble, but I routinely get 22mpg (not towing) and 12mpg (towing) with my '07 Tundra. Granted, the Teton Mtns are much bigger and steeper than our East Coast mtns - but the Tundra seems to like them as we saw 24 mpg (not towing) and 10mpg (towing) out there this past summer








[/quote]

Haha, yeah I bet they do love it. Top Gear is always doing crazy stuff like that. Lets see what they did to the Toyota...left it in the ocean for 12 hours, set it on fire, drove it into a tree, left it on top of a 24 story building that was being blown up, dropped a camper on it, drove it through a house...and it always started....amazing.

I wish I saw numbers like that with mine, maybe I haven't got it broken in enough.

Nice photography you have, I myself am a semi-pro and do paid jobs from time to time on the side. Love nature shots.


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## 1jeep

Wow...i really wish i saw those mileage numbers, i wouldnt have bought a commuter car!

After 35k miles, 2 tailgates, driveshaft recall and a check engine light due to a bad o2 sensor. I still havent seen anything better than 16.5mpg on the highway driving in optimal weather with the cruise control on. I get about 8-10mpg towing and have never thought that i need more power, the sad part is i do need more cargo capacity and Toyota just isnt going to give it to me.


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## puffer

Is this thread ever going to die? Everytime i click"view new posts" this thread seems to always be there. Oh crap,this will put it in the "new posts" again,SORRY!


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## sclee

vikecowboy said:


> What's wrong with Half Tons?
> 
> Nothing if you have a newer generation Tundra!


I'm considering buying a 23KRS as my first travel trailer and I was wondering how a 2007 or 2008 Tundra would work as a tow vehicle. It sound's like you have had good luck.

The truck will be my daily driver as well as tow vehicle and I don't really want the extra weight and gas consumption of a 3/4 ton. I'd also prefer to have the 4.7 liter engine rather than the 5.7. Does anyone have experience pulling a 23KRS or 23RS with a 2007 or later Tundra?

The Tundra appears to include a towing package as standard equipment. Would I need to do any upgrades to handle the 23KRS?


----------



## AZthunderations

This is MY personal opinion and no one has promted me or paid me for this. No government agencies or manufacturers have provided funds or grants.
I've posted on this subject before and still feel that any truck will pull something well. Now you just have to match things up. A 1/2 ton with proper set up will provide very good service pulling a lighter weight TT, even a smaller 5er. Many of us have that combination and are very happy and secure with it. Keystone and others advertise towards it with many TT or 5er models.
3/4 and 1 tons will out pull a 1/2 ton every day, any condition. I think that is a fair statement. Don't care what engine/tranny combo or make and model, they're just built for heavier duty service.
"GO BIG or GO HOME" is what I hear a lot and to be honest, I'd stay home if I had to travel with the majority of those folks. If you're RVing because of a big EGO







and have to have the newest and biggest, please let me know where you are going to be. I'll go the other direction.
I think most of the posters on this web site, (not so much some others) are campers and really enjoy getting out in the woods, to a lake, up a mountain, or just to get a way with friends and families. That's what it's all about.
When we had our pop-up, we camped with friends that had a 40ft diesel pusher. Now we have upgraded to a 25 ft TT and our friends now have a 43 ft diesel pusher, and we still have fun camping together, always have and always will. Don't care that their tag vehicle is worth more then my whole set up, doesn't matter.
Bottom line is that most all of us are doing this as a hobby. A few have seemed to make a job out of it and that is sad. 
I'm know that there are some overloaded, unsafe combinations out there and they do need to be advised of the situation for their own safety as well as the safety of those around them. They are usually the ones complaining about the poor quality of the TV, not because of what it is, but because of what they are trying to do with it that it was not built to do. They will probably NOT be on this web site because they most likely don't care. You know, you've seen them. 
No need to argue about makes and models or type of engine/tranny combinations, American or foriegn.
There are programs to figure the towing capabilites of vehicles. Now we need one to figure the towing capabilities of the human behind the wheel of the rig.
OK. I'm done.............going camping. The Arizona desert is a beautiful place in the winter. See you there?


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## wolfwood

Steve Lee said:


> What's wrong with Half Tons?
> 
> Nothing if you have a newer generation Tundra!


I'm considering buying a 23KRS as my first travel trailer and I was wondering how a 2007 or 2008 Tundra would work as a tow vehicle. It sound's like you have had good luck.

The truck will be my daily driver as well as tow vehicle and I don't really want the extra weight and gas consumption of a 3/4 ton. I'd also prefer to have the 4.7 liter engine rather than the 5.7. Does anyone have experience pulling a 23KRS or 23RS with a 2007 or later Tundra?

The Tundra appears to include a towing package as standard equipment. Would I need to do any upgrades to handle the 23KRS?
[/quote]
Hi Steve,
I have a stock '07 5.7 Tundra (Dbl cab) and tow a 28krs. If you'll search my posts (and/or Toyota Tundra) you'll find LOTS of comments, reviews, notes, etc. on where we've taken this rig, how it has performed, and how much I LOVE MY TUNDRA with or without a camper in tow vehicle !!!


----------



## Dub

Steve Lee said:


> What's wrong with Half Tons?
> 
> Nothing if you have a newer generation Tundra!


I'm considering buying a 23KRS as my first travel trailer and I was wondering how a 2007 or 2008 Tundra would work as a tow vehicle. It sound's like you have had good luck.

The truck will be my daily driver as well as tow vehicle and I don't really want the extra weight and gas consumption of a 3/4 ton. I'd also prefer to have the 4.7 liter engine rather than the 5.7. Does anyone have experience pulling a 23KRS or 23RS with a 2007 or later Tundra?

The Tundra appears to include a towing package as standard equipment. Would I need to do any upgrades to handle the 23KRS?
[/quote]

I have towed my 250BHS Fun Finder which is 26'7" without a weight distribution setup or anti-sway all over Ohio and some small hills/mountains and you wouldn't know the trailer was back there unless you looked in the rear view mirrors. It's a lil bigger than the models you mentioned so I would expect the same performance...didn't even make the suspension squat. Now the 310BHS 8000lbs 35' monster makes the truck work, but only a lil. I know some guys over on Tundrasolutions.com who tow 30ft goosenecks that weigh 7500lbs loaded with the 4.7 and they like it. To me the 5.7L is worth the extra cost, isn't that much of a difference in mileage.


----------



## Sayonara




----------



## Carey

Dub said:


> What is that you do?


 I mean where do you work?
[/quote]

I work for an energy company. We have right of ways that stretch far into deep wildernesses and remote stations. Our fleet vehicles are used for everything from checking the properties to pulling mowers and tractors out to dig new lines, service the equipment, etc. That's where I got my start and I've had plenty of experience with Chrysler's poor excuse for vehicles--which is why they are the weakest link of the Big 3, how many other fleet contracts do you think they have lost in this economy when everyone scrutinizes their maintenance records? Sad to say with my personal disdain for Ford but they have failed fewer times overall than the Dodge's. I'll be happy to verify any claims of "no problems ever" with a VIN number. While our fleet contract is still with Ford we always maintain a smaller fleet of vehicles from the other two for comparison. Looks like GM may win the next contract if they are still around in 4 years.

And when comparing gas to diesel you have to adjust for the extra $1.00/gal for diesel. Gas is priced at $1.529 locally and diesel is $2.529 locally, meaning diesel cost 40% more (not to mention the extra $8000 cost of the engine). So my 10mpg towing, 16, city, 19 highway would need to be increased by 40% to be comparable to diesel that puts me at 14mpg towing, 22.4mpg city, 26.6mpg highway. Diesel maintenance is also higher, the Duramax need a new injector every 100K miles and that ain't cheap. Add in the extra maintenance and initial cost of the engine and that would put my mileage at 30mpg comparatively.

Not trying to be a jerk with my posts on this thread but the "you must have a 3/4-1ton truck" attitude is what scares a lot of people from forums like this. RV.net is about the worst ever at that and is mocked for it all over the internet. Fact is if someone has chosen a 1/2 ton for a certain reason such as myself, or it is all that someone can afford, you shouldn't be talking down to them and telling them all they can tow is a pup. Encourage them to get something within their trucks capabilities and to safely tow it and get out and have some fun. That's what I'm here for, to enjoy RVing and have some fun.
[/quote]

Our energy company leases 100 dodge duallies a year. They are used around the state and in the high country..

Since the dealer does all the work on them, I had em run the VIN... It had never been back to the dealer except for a few oil changes, and filters.

I bought one of there lease returns. It had 28k miles on it. I then outfitted it with the required equipment to haul rv's commercially. I then put 100k miles on it in 5 months.. It now has 130k on it. Since the economy dumped, I had to quit for the winter.. But will be going back pretty soon.. By this time next year the dually will have a good 250k on it..

Problems so far. 
One wheel bearing at 75k.
A new clutch at 81k
A set of ball joints at 120k.
A new heater door too at 120k.

No other problems. 
A normal person would have never done the clutch, wheel bearing, or ball joints cause none of it was really bad, bad yet. But since I run way up into Canada I dont want problems. I noticed the TO bearing making a slight noise and wanted a perfprmance clutch anyway. The wheel bearing had a slight noise, but was tight. The ball joints were just barely out of spec.

My company has 800 trucks. 
600 Dodges, 100 fords and 100 chevs.

Many, many of the guys trucks have over 1/2 million on em including chevs and fords. The dodges will run those kind of miles with less problems that the fords and chevs have.

We run our trucks on the highway and tow 10-15000lbs with em.

You guys beat the heck out of em.. Take your toy out and do the same job.. It will be back at the dealer more than you'd like also..

Im not gonna argue with ya, but many people love there big 3 trucks me included.. Yes a toy can tow a 7500 GN... But thats about its limits.. If thats all you tow, your toy will be just fine.

Carey


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## Carey

Sean Woodruff said:


> Dub,
> 
> It is all anecdotal. That is, every post you read is based on the experience of the poster. You will never read a post about someone towing with a 3/4, or 1 ton, tow vehicle that has had an accident. Why would that person post? The masses will jump on them and tell them it was all their fault.
> 
> I have never towed with anything larger than a 1/2 ton, or less, with most over the "ratings." I don't want the ride of a heavy suspension when I'm not towing (over 90% of the time). I'm not breaking any laws and I'd put the safety of my rig up against any other on the test track.
> 
> I have also talked to hundreds of people that have had accidents with 3/4T and 1T tow vehicles. Again, they don't post on forums.
> 
> So, the bottom line is that you have to decide for yourself what works. You can "listen" to everyone else but most of the time you won't "hear" the negatives so you won't "hear" the entire story.


Very, very true Sean. I seen as many 3/4 fifth wheel wrecks as 1/2 ton or less with bumper pulls last summer.

I see just as many or actually more, over loaded 3/4 tons as 1/2 tons.. You would not believe how many guys use a single tire 3/4 ton to tow a 15000 5er out there.. For every 10 of those big 5ers I see, maybe one will be a dually..

Go pull a 15000+ 5er and tell us how your way overweight 3/4 handles.. No better than a 1/2 towing a 10000lb bumper pull..

Carey


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## MJRey

Steve Lee said:


> What's wrong with Half Tons?
> 
> Nothing if you have a newer generation Tundra!


I'm considering buying a 23KRS as my first travel trailer and I was wondering how a 2007 or 2008 Tundra would work as a tow vehicle. It sound's like you have had good luck.

The truck will be my daily driver as well as tow vehicle and I don't really want the extra weight and gas consumption of a 3/4 ton. I'd also prefer to have the 4.7 liter engine rather than the 5.7. Does anyone have experience pulling a 23KRS or 23RS with a 2007 or later Tundra?

The Tundra appears to include a towing package as standard equipment. Would I need to do any upgrades to handle the 23KRS?
[/quote]

I think you actually get better mileage and a lot more performance with the 5.7. You also get a 6 speed automatic with tow/haul mode with the 5.7 instead of the 5 speed auto with the 4.7. I'm not really sure why given that anyone would get the 4.7.

The Tundra with the 5.7 will handle the 23KRS with ease. Seems like a no brainer to me.


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## Dub

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> My company has 800 trucks.
> 600 Dodges, 100 fords and 100 chevs.
> 
> Many, many of the guys trucks have over 1/2 million on em including chevs and fords. The dodges will run those kind of miles with less problems that the fords and chevs have.
> 
> Carey


Your company is the only energy company I know of that likes to throw away money and doesn't have an accounting department. After 5 years or 100,000 miles the government considers light-duty vehicles fully depreciated meaning that doing business with those trucks COSTS you more money in taxes since they no longer qualify for business write-offs on cost or mileage. At that point it's either give $50K to the government in taxes or buy a new vehicle with that $50K and write it off your taxes. My company as well as every other company I know of trades them in at 100K for that reason alone (or sells them to employees). It would make sense for a farmer without any knowledge of accounting to keep a truck for so long but not a large corporation. But I guess some corporations don't mind throwing away millions in taxes taking away from their CEO's bonuses. You must have very content executives.


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## Carey

Dub said:


> My company has 800 trucks.
> 600 Dodges, 100 fords and 100 chevs.
> 
> Many, many of the guys trucks have over 1/2 million on em including chevs and fords. The dodges will run those kind of miles with less problems that the fords and chevs have.
> 
> Carey


Your company is the only energy company I know of that likes to throw away money and doesn't have an accounting department. After 5 years or 100,000 miles the government considers light-duty vehicles fully depreciated meaning that doing business with those trucks COSTS you more money in taxes since they no longer qualify for business write-offs on cost or mileage. At that point it's either give $50K to the government in taxes or buy a new vehicle with that $50K and write it off your taxes. My company as well as every other company I know of trades them in at 100K for that reason alone (or sells them to employees). It would make sense for a farmer without any knowledge of accounting to keep a truck for so long but not a large corporation. But I guess some corporations don't mind throwing away millions in taxes taking away from their CEO's bonuses. You must have very content executives.
[/quote]

Well, out of about 20 duallies I looked at from this company, the one I bought had the fewest miles..

The most was 210,000, the least was mine. Most averaged 115,000 miles.

Colorado is a big state!

I think the reason they get rid of them so soon is they drive the heck out of em.. Prolly much smarter than keeping them 5 years...

I have no clue of the executives dude.. I bought the truck from the dealer that serves our power company..

The dealer did tell me, some had very high miles, cause depending on where the guy lived and what he done for the power company depicted the mileage.

Gotta remember, us people out west do things a bit different than easterners...

Carey


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## CamperAndy

Guys if this continues to go to a brand war it will get closed. This is the second and last notice.


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## Carey

By the way, I bet the power company paid in the low 30's for these trucks.. The one I bought was only 26k.

There higher mileage trucks were going for around and under 20k.. I bet the power company lost lil money on there one year leases..

In fact with write offs, I bet they are about free to them trucks.

Carey


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## Carey

CamperAndy said:


> Guys if this continues to go to a brand war it will get closed. This is the second and last notice.


No brand wars here Andy.. Just talking about my truck and saying my dodge has ran great, just like you said yours did.

Carey


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## Carey

Dub said:


> My company has 800 trucks.
> 600 Dodges, 100 fords and 100 chevs.
> 
> Many, many of the guys trucks have over 1/2 million on em including chevs and fords. The dodges will run those kind of miles with less problems that the fords and chevs have.
> 
> Carey


Your company is the only energy company I know of that likes to throw away money and doesn't have an accounting department. After 5 years or 100,000 miles the government considers light-duty vehicles fully depreciated meaning that doing business with those trucks COSTS you more money in taxes since they no longer qualify for business write-offs on cost or mileage. At that point it's either give $50K to the government in taxes or buy a new vehicle with that $50K and write it off your taxes. My company as well as every other company I know of trades them in at 100K for that reason alone (or sells them to employees). It would make sense for a farmer without any knowledge of accounting to keep a truck for so long but not a large corporation. But I guess some corporations don't mind throwing away millions in taxes taking away from their CEO's bonuses. You must have very content executives.
[/quote]

And my company is a group of owner operators who tow new rv's from mfr to dealer. I work out of Elkhart, In. We deliver to all of the US and Canada including New Foundland, and up into Alaska..

When you see a new Heartland RV or Forest River on a dealer's lot, my company has delivered it there from the mfr in Indiana.

Carey


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## Sayonara

i forget. what was this topic supposed to be about again ?


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## Dub

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Well, out of about 20 duallies I looked at from this company, the one I bought had the fewest miles..
> 
> The most was 210,000, the least was mine. Most averaged 115,000 miles.
> 
> Colorado is a big state!
> 
> I think the reason they get rid of them so soon is they drive the heck out of em.. Prolly much smarter than keeping them 5 years...
> 
> I have no clue of the executives dude.. I bought the truck from the dealer that serves our power company..
> 
> The dealer did tell me, some had very high miles, cause depending on where the guy lived and what he done for the power company depicted the mileage.
> 
> Gotta remember, us people out west do things a bit different than easterners...
> 
> Carey


Okay, that makes more sense, I thought you were saying they were keeping them all until 500K which is crazy for a corporation, it would be financial suicide. We have a plan at work now that instead of taking a company vehicle and then paying $100/mo to use that car/truck + all personal gas they will give you $350/mo to buy your own and pay around $.30/mile. But if it's a personal vehicle it is considered fully depreciated after 4 years and 40,000 miles so anything over 10K miles in a year and you get double mileage for excess depreciation, but after 4 years your monthly drops to around $100/mo if you don't get a new one. That's how energy companies do it.

Now your company I can see, probably small outfit and you just deliver RV's back and forth, makes more sense for them to keep 'em with higher mileage. But there are tax advantages of changing them more often if the corporation owns them.

Anyway, enough off-topic as the mods say. I love my half-ton, just added the tailgate backup camera last night with the drop down LCD, gonna make hitchin' up a breeze!


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## Carey

Here is what the guys do. They finance a new/newer truck for 3 years. Then 250k miles are put on each year. So at the end of 3 years the truck has 750k miles.. You roll it to the junk yard and go buy another truck on a 3 year note.. The IRS will allow us to depreciate the truck for just 3 years, not 5 like semis.

Now the only problem is no rv's to haul.. But up until now, the majority of guys have put on 2-250k miles a year..

I have seen on ebay, many of these trucks being sold from repos.. I hope mine doesnt end up that way... Will see.

Carey


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## Carey

Dub said:


> Well, out of about 20 duallies I looked at from this company, the one I bought had the fewest miles..
> 
> The most was 210,000, the least was mine. Most averaged 115,000 miles.
> 
> Colorado is a big state!
> 
> I think the reason they get rid of them so soon is they drive the heck out of em.. Prolly much smarter than keeping them 5 years...
> 
> I have no clue of the executives dude.. I bought the truck from the dealer that serves our power company..
> 
> The dealer did tell me, some had very high miles, cause depending on where the guy lived and what he done for the power company depicted the mileage.
> 
> Gotta remember, us people out west do things a bit different than easterners...
> 
> Carey


Okay, that makes more sense, I thought you were saying they were keeping them all until 500K which is crazy for a corporation, it would be financial suicide. We have a plan at work now that instead of taking a company vehicle and then paying $100/mo to use that car/truck + all personal gas they will give you $350/mo to buy your own and pay around $.30/mile. But if it's a personal vehicle it is considered fully depreciated after 4 years and 40,000 miles so anything over 10K miles in a year and you get double mileage for excess depreciation, but after 4 years your monthly drops to around $100/mo if you don't get a new one. That's how energy companies do it.

Now your company I can see, probably small outfit and you just deliver RV's back and forth, makes more sense for them to keep 'em with higher mileage. But there are tax advantages of changing them more often if the corporation owns them.

Anyway, enough off-topic as the mods say. I love my half-ton, just added the tailgate backup camera last night with the drop down LCD, gonna make hitchin' up a breeze!
[/quote]

And no its not financial suicide..

Coca-Cola does this and has done this for decades..

They keep there vehicles 10 years. Yes even there ford escorts and aerostar, astro mini vans.

Many of there vehicles use CNG for fuel extending the life of the engine to over double what gasoline does.

At the end of 5 years, the vehicle is refurbed. New paint, interior, engine, trans, and differential. Then the vehicle is kept 5 more years.

I worked in a shop who done the 5 years refurbs for them..

It was well proven that this method saved them billions over the years.

Yes at the end of 10 years a vehicle was approching 5-750k miles.. Not a problem if taken care of, and will save lots of money to boot.

Carey


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## psychodad

Hi all. I have read this entire thread with great interest since I am considering an TV upgrade. My current TV just turned 217k and I am a little concerned about using it for the upcoming camping season. I have picked up a lot from this read and I understand the issues of affordabilty, safety, every day use vs. just towing, etc. and how these influence the decision. I am looking at some used f150's with a 5.4, 145" wheel base, 3.73 axel ratio. (a little hard to do being a life long GM guy) This set up is rated to to pull my OB (07/25RSS) I was wondering if anyone here knows what class the stock Ford hitch is on an 06 F150? I havn't been able to find it and I am not confident in some of the salesman I have asked. I would also welcome any other comments. I do use an equalizer WD. Thanks in advance.


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## WYOCAMPER

psychodad said:


> Hi all. I have read this entire thread with great interest since I am considering an TV upgrade. My current TV just turned 217k and I am a little concerned about using it for the upcoming camping season. I have picked up a lot from this read and I understand the issues of affordabilty, safety, every day use vs. just towing, etc. and how these influence the decision. I am looking at some used f150's with a 5.4, 145" wheel base, 3.73 axel ratio. (a little hard to do being a life long GM guy) This set up is rated to to pull my OB (07/25RSS) I was wondering if anyone here knows what class the stock Ford hitch is on an 06 F150? I havn't been able to find it and I am not confident in some of the salesman I have asked. I would also welcome any other comments. I do use an equalizer WD. Thanks in advance.


I can't give you an answer, but I can point you in the right direction. Look at the F150 Forum on Ford Truck Enthusiast. It's a great place to do some research and ask some questions. There are a lot of knowledgeable people on their that are willing to help out and share their real world experiences. Good luck.

Here's a link: http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/index.php


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## AZthunderations

Does the truck you're looking at have the factory tow package? If so, the hitch is more then capable of towing your 25 foot Outback. It should be a class IV, as the truck is rated for over 8,000 towing. If the truck does not have the factory tow package and just a hitch was installed it may be a class III, but is still rated at 7,000. I have a 2001 Ford F150 SuperCrew, 5.4 with the factory tow package and tow a 25 foot Forest River Rockwood very well, even in the mountains. The 5.4 is a really great engine and has good towing power. It's still the base engine for the F250's.


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## Nathan

It's a class IV hitch. My last truck was an 06 150. Definetly get the 3.73 rear end. The 3.55 is acutally worse on fuel economy and prevents the truck from running in OD with the OB behind.


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## Collinsfam_WY

Nathan said:


> It's a class IV hitch. My last truck was an 06 150. Definetly get the 3.73 rear end. The 3.55 is acutally worse on fuel economy and prevents the truck from running in OD with the OB behind.


Having towed a 23RS with my '02 F150 equipped with 3.55's, I can attest to this. Those rear gears will make your truck work much, much harder. If you can put in 4.10's, do it. The 3.55's keep the rpm's too low to be anywhere close to the meat of the power band (referring to 2V 5.4's here) when towing at 65mph. Find out what gears are in it. Also, look on the door sticker and determine what trans is in it. My truck has trans code "U" on the sticker denoting the 4R70W. I installed dual trans coolers after finding this out. Trucks with the big payload package got the 4R100 which is a stronger unit. I am not sure if this holds true for the '06's. I love my Ford(s).

-CC


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## Sean Woodruff

Another vote for at least the 3.73 rear end. The only place that a larger number in the rear end is desirable.


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