# I Made Toast Again. Can I Recover ?



## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Another set of batteries has fallen victim to my Parallax 7355 converter/charger.

After installing Trojan T-105 6v golf cart batteries last year, I have been checking their water level often as I leave the OB plugged in all the time. They have never needed water and built a high level of confidence in their abilty to survive under these conditions.

Sooooo, I waited a little longer to check the water this time, maybe 6-7 weeks, and to my surprise and shock, several cells had exposed lead with the water level below the plates. Also, the voltage across the batteries was only 12.2 volts even though they were constantly being charged.

As soon as I added water the voltage went up to about 12.7 without even charging. They're now connected to my deep cycle auto charger and I'm reading voltage of 14.8 although the charger has not yet reached the "finished" level. It's been about 22 hours on a 10 amp charge.

So whatcha think? Are these things gonna live? I will be dry camping for 4 days this coming week and need to make a decision on wether to try them out or replace them







I was going to do some less than scientific testing before I leave like running the furnace fan, leaving the lights on, etc... to see how they handle the stress. I don't have a generator so I really need dependable batteries.

This is the first time this has happened to them. Do you think their total capacity has been diminished from this situation? Will they still have most of their capacity?


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

Hi Jim,

Is this your trip to Jalama?

Tough call on that one. You could always hit the long windy road to Lompoc if they give out on you mid trip.


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## Bill H (Nov 25, 2006)

Is this a problem with the stock converters? I thought the newer ones with the switching power supplies & regulators were OK..... Or does this just pertain to "WET" cells? I had a coachman with an older type converter. I disconnected the charging circuit from it and installed a Minn-Kota 20 amp dual bank charger. Never had a problem after that.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

They are diminished for sure but may not be dead. Charge them, then let them sit without the charger for at least 24 hours. Then check the vdc. They should be at least 12.7, if they are then just use them as normal and keep a closer eye on the electrolyte level.


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

skippershe said:


> They are diminished for sure but may not be dead. Charge them, then let them sit without the charger for at least 24 hours. Then check the vdc. They should be at least 12.7, if they are then just use them as normal and keep a closer eye on the electrolyte level.


Thanks Andy, I was kind of hoping you would check in on this one.

Results so far after a deep cycle charge:

13.2 combined volts, and 6.56 & 6.62 individual voltage measured on the batts.

Then to remove the "suface charge" I ran anything and everything for about 5 minutes. Furnace, all lights, water pump, bath fan, exterior lights, you name it, they were all on.

Measured after surface charge removed:

Immediate - 12.9 combined (didn't get individual voltage)
5 minutes - 13.04 combined, 6.49 & 6.55 individual
30 minutes - 13.09 combined, 6.51 & 6.57 individual
1 hour - 13.10 combined, 6.51 & 6.57 individual

I decided to set the furnace for 70 and leave it on all night and check again tomorrow.

A foot note. This all started because the furnace wouldn't work. I checked the voltage at the furnace fuse and found it to be 12.2 and knew something was wrong. So the furnace would not work at this voltage which at the temperature here was about 50-60% of total battery discharge. I was surprised when just a small increase in voltage up to 12.7 and the furnace fired right up. Interesting huh?!


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## ED_RN (Jun 25, 2006)

California Jim said:


> They are diminished for sure but may not be dead. Charge them, then let them sit without the charger for at least 24 hours. Then check the vdc. They should be at least 12.7, if they are then just use them as normal and keep a closer eye on the electrolyte level.


Thanks Andy, I was kind of hoping you would check in on this one.

Results so far after a deep cycle charge:

13.2 combined volts, and 6.56 & 6.62 individual voltage measured on the batts.

Then to remove the "suface charge" I ran anything and everything for about 5 minutes. Furnace, all lights, water pump, bath fan, exterior lights, you name it, they were all on.

Measured after surface charge removed:

Immediate - 12.9 combined (didn't get individual voltage)
5 minutes - 13.04 combined, 6.49 & 6.55 individual
30 minutes - 13.09 combined, 6.51 & 6.57 individual
1 hour - 13.10 combined, 6.51 & 6.57 individual

I decided to set the furnace for 70 and leave it on all night and check again tomorrow.

A foot note. This all started because the furnace wouldn't work. I checked the voltage at the furnace fuse and found it to be 12.2 and knew something was wrong. So the furnace would not work at this voltage which at the temperature here was about 50-60% of total battery discharge. I was surprised when just a small increase in voltage up to 12.7 and the furnace fired right up. Interesting huh?!
[/quote]
Don't mean to steal the thread but. Jim do you think Jalama will be busy this weekend. I was thinking of heading up Wed and then have the DW and DD come up on Thursday after school is out.


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

Seems like some damage was done, but might not be that bad.

Why not give them a dry run this week...leave lights on...run heater over night...etc, for a few days and see where they end up. Then you'll have a real world test on how they are going to hold up for you on your next trip.


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## W Podboy (Jan 4, 2007)

Jim,

One of the problems with putting batteries in series as in the case of 2 6 volt batteries is that if capacity of one of the batteries diminishes because of whatever reason, it will discharge the other battery.

Anytime that the electrolyte level changes you have a potential to have diminished capacity of the battery from that point forward.

I am not a big fan of leaving the batteries on the standard charger that comes on most trailers. I have found that a solar panel with a charge controller works the best. It allows the battery to charge during the day and the internal leakage between plates to provide a normal discharge at night. This helps prevent sediment within the battery from forming and there by creating a means to discharge / short the plates beyond the normal discharge.

When I installed a solar panel on my old trailer, my battery life was extended significantly. When I bought my Outback 2 months ago, the panels were the mod that I installed.

I have also installed a Battery Combiner from West Coast Marine which is a microprocessor controlled device that allows me to combine and or switch a battery in and out. I have 2 batteries !!! The combiner will not allow one battery to discharge the other battery. It is a great product !!

Good luck


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Furnace ran all night at 70f and the voltage was 12.65 resting this AM. I shut it down and will let it rest while I'm at work today and check it again tonight. I'll probably let the furnace run again tonight and see where this puts me.

I'm so mad at myself for all of this I could puke. Swapping out the converter is looking like a better idea all the time now.

ON EDIT: According to The 12 Volt Side of Life , at 12.6v my batts are charged 100% . This is pretty good news considering that the furnace ran all night and I'm still at that level.


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## Kyoutbacker (Apr 26, 2006)

Jim - try equalizing or desulfuring (sp) your batteries first before you give up on them. Good chargers have this setting. Puts about 17volts on them and boils them like crazy to stir the battery and remove sulphates from the plates. I think Trojan Battery has the procedure on their site, otherwise google it.


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

ED_RN said:


> Jim - try equalizing or desulfuring (sp) your batteries first before you give up on them. Good chargers have this setting. Puts about 17volts on them and boils them like crazy to stir the battery and remove sulphates from the plates. I think Trojan Battery has the procedure on their site, otherwise google it.


Thanks KY. Yeah, I did read that on the Trojan site last night. I believe Trojan reccomended 15.5 volts to do this. Naturally my 20 year old Sears charger does not have this feature. However it was putting out 14.8v towards the end of the charge which was pretty good and must have got them bubbling somewhat. I think a trip for a new charger might be in order.


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Hmmmmm. Just found this, and looks very compelling for those of us with the old style battery killing converter:

Converter Upgrade Kit










So, I can spend $100 on a nice stand alone charger, or $200 to insert new guts in the existing converter. I'm thinking SURGERY


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Jim,

I'm afraid this one exceeds my personal knowledge base too far for me to give advice. From the sounds of it, your batteries seem to be holding up OK, but you really will not know for sure until you get out there.

I think I would give them a shot, and you will probably know in the first day if you need to go into crisis management mode with them, and power down the non-essentials. Hey, they pulled it off on Apollo 13... How hard can it be in an Outback?









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## BlueWedge (Sep 11, 2005)

I ordered my transfer switch from them. No issues.

Sounds like a great way to get a 3 stage charger like the newer outbacks have. The instructions don't look that bad... This coming from a guy who decided to see if a GFI plugin holds water. They do. They trip and then get very warm.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

BlueWedge said:


> This coming from a guy who decided to see if a GFI plugin holds water. They do. They trip and then get very warm.


Sounds like a campfire story I'll be looking forward to hearing at the Spring PNW Outbackers rally!









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

PDX_Doug said:


> Hey, they pulled it off on Apollo 13... How hard can it be in an Outback?


Not sure he has a 100's of engineers helping him out 7/24...


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Bill H said:


> Is this a problem with the stock converters? I thought the newer ones with the switching power supplies & regulators were OK..... Or does this just pertain to "WET" cells? I had a coachman with an older type converter. I disconnected the charging circuit from it and installed a Minn-Kota 20 amp dual bank charger. Never had a problem after that.


Sorry I missed your question earlier Bill. The best I can tell, Outback sometime in the late 2004/early 2005 model year switched to a WFCO converter/charger that has a 3 stage battery charger built in. Older models like mine have the Parallax 7345 or 7355. The newer WFCO's should not kill your batteries. Well at least not as easily. If you have the Parallax you really need to check your water levels every 3-4 weeks MAX if you leave the rig plugged in as I do. With the 3 stage charger you may only need to look every few months or even less if it's not too hot.


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## Thor (Apr 7, 2004)

Oregon_Camper said:


> Hey, they pulled it off on Apollo 13... How hard can it be in an Outback?


Not sure he has a 100's of engineers helping him out 7/24...








[/quote]

Too funny

Jim - I think your batteries will be alright. The worst that could happen is that you have shorten their life cycle a bit. By your reading they seem fine.

Relax and enjoy your camping.

A solar panel sounds like a great idea, just to extend battery life.

Thor


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Jim - Sounds like you got to it before any real damage was done. I would look at replacing the converter you have with one of the newer 3 stage converter/chargers. Best Converters is a good place to shop.

As for the comment about 2 6 volt batteries vs. 1 12 volt battery there is no issue there both combine to have 6 cells so if a cell goes bad in either set up you are in the same boat. The 2 6 vdc batteries tend to stand up better over time and this little goof could help to prove that point.

If you were over 12.6 after running the furnace all night you are in great shape.


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

CamperAndy said:


> If you were over 12.6 after running the furnace all night you are in great shape.


Music to my ears Andy









I've had the furnace running again tonight since about 5pm (6 hours) and I'm still reading 12.52v after it cycles off and rests for a bit. I'll check them again in the AM, but am starting to get a "peaceful easy feeling" right about now









I too have always heard that the 6v golf cart batteries were much better built than their 12v counterparts, with the Trojan's being still the best of that group. Like you say, this may just be an example of being tough under extreme use. "Extremely stupid" on my part though









I'm for sure going to rebuild the charger now.


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## bentpixel (Sep 2, 2006)

Kyoutbacker said:


> Jim - try equalizing or desulfuring (sp) your batteries first before you give up on them. Good chargers have this setting. Puts about 17volts on them and boils them like crazy to stir the battery and remove sulphates from the plates. I think Trojan Battery has the procedure on their site, otherwise google it.


x2
I bought this Husky Battery Charger at Home Depot for about $60.







It has the Desulfurization mode and the Equalization mode. The Desulfurization mode is an automatic program (24hrs) that cleans the plates after storage with a less than full charge. The Equalization mode will boil/stir the electrolyte to "equalize" the acid top to bottom on the plates after numerous deep cycles (between 50% and 80% capacity). The mode is automatic, however, the Trojan site says you only need to equalize until the specific gravity stops rising on each cell. Check battery temp and water level hourly during this procedure.









Sounds like that batteries will be just fine with some TLC.

Best of Luck,
Scott


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Thanks for the info Scott. After doing a little more research I have decided to replace the charger built into my converter with a Progressive Dynamics 9260 that has a built in Charge Wizard. Aside from being a high quality 3 stage charger, this unit will automatically provide a desulfation cycle about once a day for 15 minutes.

*Today's battery update* . After running the furnace for 14 hours since yesterday, this morning's resting voltage was 12.34 which at our temperature equates to about a 70% charge still on the batts. So I have had the furnace actively on for about 30 hours now at 70f with overnight temps hitting about 47-50. Even though it is California, the furnace has still been running alot.

I'm very pleased and think I dodged a bullet









I'll make an upgrade process post when the time comes to pull the guts out of my factory converter.


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Interesting graphic of how the Charge Wizard works:


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## bentpixel (Sep 2, 2006)

Cool charger. Congrats. I've seen the Charge Wizard a CW. Boost mode *might* need some supervising, 'cause the input current is so high. But, after that, I agree, looks like just the monthly water check.









But, if you gotta check the water might as well go camping.
















After your next toast hope somebody says, "Cheers".









Scott


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

bentpixel said:


> After your next toast hope somebody says, "Cheers".
> 
> 
> 
> ...










Lets hope so !


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## Bill H (Nov 25, 2006)

California Jim said:


> Is this a problem with the stock converters? I thought the newer ones with the switching power supplies & regulators were OK..... Or does this just pertain to "WET" cells? I had a coachman with an older type converter. I disconnected the charging circuit from it and installed a Minn-Kota 20 amp dual bank charger. Never had a problem after that.


Sorry I missed your question earlier Bill. The best I can tell, Outback sometime in the late 2004/early 2005 model year switched to a WFCO converter/charger that has a 3 stage battery charger built in. Older models like mine have the Parallax 7345 or 7355. The newer WFCO's should not kill your batteries. Well at least not as easily. If you have the Parallax you really need to check your water levels every 3-4 weeks MAX if you leave the rig plugged in as I do. With the 3 stage charger you may only need to look every few months or even less if it's not too hot.
[/quote]

I have the WFCO charger. Quite a bit different then the charger in my older TT. Thanks for the update.....


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