# Poor Workmanship



## kingpin (Oct 24, 2008)

i have an 09 27L (loft) that has many faults do to poor workmanship. these include doors installed crooked,graphics that do not line up,trim pieces that buldge,stick out or are crooked,border that is unlevel,counter tops that have bad seams plus many other problems. the dealership is 300 miles away
and i have sent many pictures to document these problems but they want me to bring it there so they can look at it before they will say if they will fix it.they said it may have to go back to the factory. well i think they should send someone to look at it or come pick it up.am i crazy? and has anyone else had the these kind of problems. i forgat to mention the seams on the fiberglass outside(you can see every one)


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

You are not stuck dealing with your dealer, you can call Keystone and ask for the nearest authorized repair dealer in your area. Not all dealers will take on a unit they didn't sell. You are finding the downside to buying from a distance. What the dealer is asking is reasonable, they need to inspect it and then seek authorization from Keystone for repairs. You can try and contact Keystone directly to seek authorization but most likely they are going to want a dealer (yours or another) to inspect it for them.


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## kingpin (Oct 24, 2008)

kingpin said:


> i have an 09 27L (loft) that has many faults do to poor workmanship. these include doors installed crooked,graphics that do not line up,trim pieces that buldge,stick out or are crooked,border that is unlevel,counter tops that have bad seams plus many other problems. the dealership is 300 miles away
> and i have sent many pictures to document these problems but they want me to bring it there so they can look at it before they will say if they will fix it.they said it may have to go back to the factory. well i think they should send someone to look at it or come pick it up.am i crazy? and has anyone else had the these kind of problems. i forgat to mention the seams on the fiberglass outside(you can see every one)


THANKYOU. ARE THESE MANY PROBLEMS NORMAL?


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

Is it normal? No, the Outback line has a pretty good reputation, however for the RV industry as a whole its not all that uncommon to find a unit with several problems. Examples like yours are one of the reasons that a good pre-delivery inspection is needed by a buyer, sadly many buyers don't learn about them until they arrive on a forum like this well after a sale. Even now you may want to use Tom Boles PDI Checklist to see if you have any other issues.

Since you are in Indiana, I'd see if you can send it back to Elkhart for repairs and not mess with any dealers.


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## Scoutr2 (Aug 21, 2006)

I am surprised that the dealer did not catch most of these mistakes before putting it on the lot for sale. I know times are tough, but these types of problems - especially the easily seen cosmetic problems - could have, and should have been corrected by the dealer before you bought the trailer.

Shame on your dealer







They are just as negligent as the factory, on this one. Part of their job is to fix these problems before they reach the customer.

I would definately want some compensation for my time, fuel, and trouble. I'd be hoppin' mad at these cosmetic flaws that were obviously ignored.

Be nice, but firm, to start with. Give them a chance to apologize and make things right. But I would not take NO for an answer - from Keystone OR from the dealer. There are avenues for restitution.

Just my $.02.


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## LA Plouff (Mar 15, 2008)

kingpin said:


> i have an 09 27L (loft) that has many faults do to poor workmanship. these include doors installed crooked,graphics that do not line up,trim pieces that buldge,stick out or are crooked,border that is unlevel,counter tops that have bad seams plus many other problems. the dealership is 300 miles away
> and i have sent many pictures to document these problems but they want me to bring it there so they can look at it before they will say if they will fix it.they said it may have to go back to the factory. well i think they should send someone to look at it or come pick it up.am i crazy? and has anyone else had the these kind of problems. i forgat to mention the seams on the fiberglass outside(you can see every one)


I had the same things with my OB. After talking loudly (OK Yelling) and climbing the corporate ladder with Keystone, they finally authorized me to take it to Pendleton OR and pay my gas there and back. I am in Seattle. Unless you are unhappy with your dealer, talk to Keystone and have them recommend another one who can listen to you.

Len


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

If your close to the factory, Goshen, In. Push to take it there.. 300 miles from your dealer must mean you bought it out of state. I would doubt if keystone would pay your gas to the dealer.. Dealer sure wont..

Keystone might pay it to the factory, but would prolly want the dealer to tell keystone it needs to go back to the factory.. So your kinda in a catch 20 there.. Might find an autorized center to get that done..

Just cause you bought one place doesnt mean you cant take it back to another for service..

Things are slow in the rv world, so you might find a dealer willing to help you more right now. Most dealers dont like warranty work cause they get cheaped out on payment from the factory.. But somethin is better than nothin right now..

Carey


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

You know, I just thought of this.. Since your so close, just drive it to the factory without anyone looking at it.. Just show up on there door step, and tell them you want what you want fixed.. If they turn you away, just uh hitch it and leave it...

Trust me, youll get it fixed, with gas to boot, lol

Carey


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## kingpin (Oct 24, 2008)

Y-Guy said:


> Is it normal? No, the Outback line has a pretty good reputation, however for the RV industry as a whole its not all that uncommon to find a unit with several problems. Examples like yours are one of the reasons that a good pre-delivery inspection is needed by a buyer, sadly many buyers don't learn about them until they arrive on a forum like this well after a sale. Even now you may want to use Tom Boles PDI Checklist to see if you have any other issues.
> 
> Since you are in Indiana, I'd see if you can send it back to Elkhart for repairs and not mess with any dealers.


I DID NOTICE SOME OF THESE ISSUES ON DELEVERY BUT WAS ASSURED THEY WOULD BE TAKEN CARE OF. THE 300 MILES IS ROUND TRIP. THE DEALER TOLD ME TO TAKE PICTURES AND SEND TO THEM AND THEY WOULD SEND ME NEW PARTS. THE FIRST THING I COMPLAINED ABOUT WAS THE SPARE TIRE COVER WAS FALLING APART. I SENT PICTURES AND THEY SENT ME A NEW ONE. THEN TWO WEEKS LATER THEY CALLED TO ASK IF I STILL HAD THE OLD ONE WHICH I SAID I DID. NOW THE WANT ME TO SHIP IT TO THEM ON MY DIME. WITH THESE MANY PROBLEMS I THINK THE FACTORY SHOULD SEND SOMEONE TO LOOK AT THEM. I HAVE EMAILED THE DEALER 14 TIMES WITH OVER 60 PICTURES AND DESCRIPTUNES. IF IT NEEDS TO GO BACK TO THE FACTORY I THINK THEY SHOULD COME AND GET IT. NOW I NOTICED A BLEMESH ON ONE OF THE LOFT SCREENS. THE ASKED IF IWOULD GET AN ESTIMATE TO REPAIR. SO ITALKED TO A SHOP AND WAS TOLD THEY COULD REPAIR IT BUT IN WOULD NOT LOOK NEW.THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE TO ME. I OFFERED TO CHANGE THE PART MYSELF TO SAVE US BOTH MONEY WHICH THE DEALER SAID WOULD BE FINE (BEFORE THE SALE). THE SAID THEY WOULDNT TRY TO REPAIR STUFF LIKE THIS AND WOULD REPLACE THE PART AND WOULDNT CARE ABOUT THE OLD PARTS (BEFORE THE SALE)


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## kingpin (Oct 24, 2008)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> You know, I just thought of this.. Since your so close, just drive it to the factory without anyone looking at it.. Just show up on there door step, and tell them you want what you want fixed.. If they turn you away, just uh hitch it and leave it...
> 
> Trust me, youll get it fixed, with gas to boot, lol
> 
> Carey


thanks to all. i took this to three race tracks this year(got it mid aug)and had over 100 people come over to look and ask questions.planing on going to
10 or more different tracks next year. i am going to tell the dealer i can be very nice and probably send them some custermers or be mean and tell the hundreds of gauckers where and what not to buy and invite them in to show them why. this unit has no heat or air in loft and no heat registor in toy hauler
area(back bedroom) sure is cold back there with no register and cold air coming down the stairwell. i dont think it should cost me two days and a couple hundred dollars to get this thing fixed. if my problems came up after the purchace and thru no fault of keystone i would feel different but yhis is almost neglegance on the part of keystone and the dealer. which by the way the dealer says they dont have the staff to check all the units for factory defects.


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

Tried to read your reply, sadly I can't read all upper case.











kingpin said:


> which by the way the dealer says they dont have the staff to check all the units for factory defects.


 Well this comes down to doing some questioning of the dealer before you buy, sadly its to late in your case. Dealer called me when my Raptor arrived, I was amazed how dirty it was and how many small things needed correcting when I saw it. Amazed me what condition Keystone sent it out to me in, but the dealer had it all cleaned and prepped before I took delivery. Dealer also knew from my Outback purchase that I was going through it with the PDI check list, which they still raz me about.

I hope you get your issues resolved.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Yea, I dont think none of the kargoroo's or any toy hauler has a heated garage.. Why cant you just drop the loft roof at night so the trailer stays warm?

You not gonna have a perfect camper.. They are mass produced with inexpensive<wink> products to make the cost affordable for the masses. Most of the work is done by unskilled workers in a faced paced factory enviroment.. lots of the problems you are finding is also found in any new RV...

I overlooked a lot of little things with ours cause I knew how it was made and who made it... I knew when I bought it it would never see a dealer again.. I enjoy fixing my trailer myself.. But thats me..

I dont think a dealer would make you happy... If I were you, I'd hitch it up and drop it at the factory... I'm serious about that... That way you can go thru your problems with them one on one..

Having someone come and get it and just sending pics over the internet wont make ya happy.. You need to be there to pick it up when its done at the factory. If your not there and they bring it back to you and something is missed, then what?

Carey


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Yea, I dont think none of the kargoroo's or any toy hauler has a heated garage..


That says a lot then, if they don't on the Kargaroos then its by design. At least on the Raptors some folks had added a vent, but the heater itself was under the fridge right next to the rear garage wall. Where is the heater on the Kargaroos?


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## kingpin (Oct 24, 2008)

Y-Guy said:


> which by the way the dealer says they dont have the staff to check all the units for factory defects.


 Well this comes down to doing some questioning of the dealer before you buy, sadly its to late in your case. Dealer called me when my Raptor arrived, I was amazed how dirty it was and how many small things needed correcting when I saw it. Amazed me what condition Keystone sent it out to me in, but the dealer had it all cleaned and prepped before I took delivery. Dealer also knew from my Outback purchase that I was going through it with the PDI check list, which they still raz me about.

I hope you get your issues resolved.
[/quote]
there is no door to seperate the rear bedroom(toybox) from the rest of the camper. and even with the loft down there is a lot of cold air coming down the stairwell as there is no insulation in the roof of the loft. it dosent need a bigger heater just some heat directed into the back. the ductwork extends under the stairwell so it would have been easy to put a sidewall registor on the stairwell wall. i can do this myself but it would have nice if they would have considering they put ac back there. if it needs ac it needs heat. they make the under belly warm and let the people freeze. i had to use a propane heater so my wife could sleep


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## bigdisneydaddy (Oct 26, 2007)

Some very good advice there from knowledgable people.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

That is a point. The Outback Kargoroo does have an ac register in the roof, but no heat.. They also have a sliding cloth door..

Could you put a sliding soft panel door in the starwell area?

One more point, the loft is sold with the master bedroom being in the garage, right? Then Keystone should have heat and ac in the master bedroom..

Getting keystone to fix that for ya, prolly not.. Your gonna have to either pay, or do that your self.

I totally agree with keystone dropping the ball on no heat/ac in your master bedroom/garage. Why do these RV mfr's do this... Do they have any brains?

Carey


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Why do these RV mfr's do this... Do they have any brains?


More and more I think they let the first consumers be the guinea pigs for product testing and wait to hear back from the dealers as to problems. Saw it some with our Outback and with our Raptor too.


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

Y-Guy said:


> ..................saw it some with our Outback.................


Say WHAT!!! I don't remember anything being disclosed.


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

Oregon_Camper said:


> Say WHAT!!! I don't remember anything being disclosed.


The advantage you have of buying it used and proven. Little things like the bag full of crapola for the bathroom, you know TP holder, towel holder, etc. Rather then installing it themselves Keystone figure hey we'll market this as a feature and toss it in a bag and let the owners figure out where we're going to install the TP holder!


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## kingpin (Oct 24, 2008)

Y-Guy said:


> Say WHAT!!! I don't remember anything being disclosed.


The advantage you have of buying it used and proven. Little things like the bag full of crapola for the bathroom, you know TP holder, towel holder, etc. Rather then installing it themselves Keystone figure hey we'll market this as a feature and toss it in a bag and let the owners figure out where we're going to install the TP holder!








[/quote]
i tried to finde a used 08 loft but was unable to locate one any where. it is funny that on keystones website the literature on the loft is of an 08 instead of an 09. the 08 is much nicer. of cource this is the one all of the rv shows had and all the articles were written about. so when you see an 09 in comparison it is 
obvious they cheapened it up alot when it went into production. i think they call that the old bait and switch. and ill just bet all the ones at the rv shows had
excellent fit and finish. not possitive but i dont think you could even purchace one at the shows only order an 09


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## anne72 (Apr 27, 2007)

I think in any assembly line business you will find stuff like this. That said, we had a major roof leak, ruined both top and bottom bunks, thankfully Alpin Haus in Amsterdam, NY took a look at it and repaired it for us. The gentlemen who had done the work said it was a shotty job out of the factory, he had never seen one done so poorly. We were shocked, while they sell Outbacks we didn't purchase it there so he really stood to gain nothing by telling us this. He resealed the whole thing and sent us on our way, we haven't had a problem since. We have also had problems with our bathroom door, it was never hung properly and is hard to open. Another thing we need to fix. Recently, I was calling around at local dealers to find the best price on a part and came across another dealership who asked me what we have. When I told him an Outback he groaned, said they stopped selling them because of poor quality! I told him I had hoped he was wrong and that barring little things we overall have been pleased with the camper. My in-laws have a Winnebago, they've had problems with theirs also. It doesn't make it right that for the price we pay these things come with problems, and hopefully your dealership will do the right thing and fix it. Otherwise I'm not sure I'd return to them for any future purchases...Good luck!


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## kingpin (Oct 24, 2008)

kingpin said:


> Say WHAT!!! I don't remember anything being disclosed.


The advantage you have of buying it used and proven. Little things like the bag full of crapola for the bathroom, you know TP holder, towel holder, etc. Rather then installing it themselves Keystone figure hey we'll market this as a feature and toss it in a bag and let the owners figure out where we're going to install the TP holder!








[/quote]
i tried to finde a used 08 loft but was unable to locate one any where. it is funny that on keystones website the literature on the loft is of an 08 instead of an 09. the 08 is much nicer. of cource this is the one all of the rv shows had and all the articles were written about. so when you see an 09 in comparison it is 
obvious they cheapened it up alot when it went into production. i think they call that the old bait and switch. and ill just bet all the ones at the rv shows had
excellent fit and finish. not possitive but i dont think you could even purchace one at the shows only order an 09
[/quote]


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

Y-Guy said:


> Say WHAT!!! I don't remember anything being disclosed.


The advantage you have of buying it used and proven. Little things like the bag full of crapola for the bathroom, you know TP holder, towel holder, etc. Rather then installing it themselves Keystone figure hey we'll market this as a feature and toss it in a bag and let the owners figure out where we're going to install the TP holder!








[/quote]

...ya know I was just kidding...right?


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## Yianni (Aug 30, 2006)

Just to add another point of view to this topic, I'm on my second Outback and have had no problems with either one. Fit and finish is what I expected for a unit at this price point.
I really am sorry to hear of all the trouble you are having.
Good luck!


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## kingpin (Oct 24, 2008)

Yianni said:


> Just to add another point of view to this topic, I'm on my second Outback and have had no problems with either one. Fit and finish is what I expected for a unit at this price point.
> I really am sorry to hear of all the trouble you are having.
> Good luck!


i guess i dont understand not expecting quaility at any price. they dont advertise units as being inferior but for cheap


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## clarkely (Sep 15, 2008)

kingpin said:


> Just to add another point of view to this topic, I'm on my second Outback and have had no problems with either one. Fit and finish is what I expected for a unit at this price point.
> I really am sorry to hear of all the trouble you are having.
> Good luck!


i guess i dont understand not expecting quaility at any price. they dont advertise units as being inferior but for cheap
[/quote]

I got a Sydney and they advertise Sydney offers you high-end quality at a mid-range price..

I only add that because i always get a kick out of how things are Marketed.............Obviously if i wanted the Best high End, it would come at a higher price.


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

Oregon_Camper said:


> i guess i dont understand not expecting quaility at any price. they dont advertise units as being inferior but for cheap


Its not expecting lower quality, but the reality that when buying an Outback you are not buying a Teton RV either. Fit & finish of the two is going to be different. Some of the items as you described are perfect examples of the engineering or lack of sometimes.


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## rdvholtwood (Sep 18, 2008)

clarkely said:


> Just to add another point of view to this topic, I'm on my second Outback and have had no problems with either one. Fit and finish is what I expected for a unit at this price point.
> I really am sorry to hear of all the trouble you are having.
> Good luck!


i guess i dont understand not expecting quaility at any price. they dont advertise units as being inferior but for cheap
[/quote]

I got a Sydney and they advertise Sydney offers you high-end quality at a mid-range price..

I only add that because i always get a kick out of how things are Marketed.............Obviously if i wanted the Best high End, it would come at a higher price.

[/quote]

Geez, I heard that too, and I have yet to pick up my 250RS - here's keeping my fingers crossed!!


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## kingpin (Oct 24, 2008)

well i was contacted by keystone today about my issues. they have set me up to take it to a service cntr to for repair. and they assured me they would all be taken care of. i might have let it slip to the dealer that i was posting the problems on this web site and in less than a week i got a call from keystone 
direct. i thank all who responded to my questions and am proud to be a member and contributer. i will post how things go. again thank you.
dave


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

Good deal Dave, hope all goes well.


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

That's great news!
Were you able to find a closer repair center, or do you have to travel the 300 miles to your dealer??


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

Y-Guy said:


> ...ya know I was just kidding...right?


Of course, but you never know with you Beaver fans LOL - I'm still waiting to hear about that new huge 5er behind you new Truck! You know you want it.
[/quote]

Want - YES

Getting - Not now (not off radar...just off this years buying pattern)


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## kingpin (Oct 24, 2008)

skippershe said:


> That's great news!
> Were you able to find a closer repair center, or do you have to travel the 300 miles to your dealer??


they set me up with a repair cntr about half the distance in the same town as it was built. i hope that since its in the same town and thats all they do it will be done sooner and better.
dave


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