# Towing weight and hitch recommendations



## jfred20 (Oct 18, 2004)

Hi,

We are looking to buy an Outback 25RSS and we have a Toyota 4Runner 4.7 V8 Sport Edition (2004) with all time 4WD. Is this enough truck to tow this trailer? It seems like all the posts I look at have big heavy duty trucks. Dealer said we could handle the 28BHS but I think that might be some BS. The Outback website says gross dry weight of trailer when at full capacity is 6000# the truck is rated for 7000#. I've read about the 75% rule. When you camp do you really take 1300#'s of stuff? Do you have to include passenger in this weight. UGHH!! It's tough being a newbie.

Also, do you have a hitch recommendation. The dealer said the hitch and sway bars and braking system would be about $850, does this seem high (Upstate NY). I don't know if he realized we already had a tow package on our truck (he never looked at it). Sorry to ask so many questions but we want to be prepared when we call him back and tell him we didn't like the offer. We want to be able to back it up.

I checked out Lakeshore RV from a post I saw on here and the 25RSS was $17,910 with free delivery w/i 1000 miles. Well it's 705 miles from us. The list price we got here at Alpin Haus was $23141. Our downfall is that we have a boat to trade. We've been told by a broker that we could get $25,000 for the boat yet all the dealer is willing to do is an even trade with the hitch thrown in. We would save on the sales tax but I think they should give us some money back which they said they would do if the trade was good. We bought the boat from them 2 seasons ago for $30,000. OK, I know I probably gave you way to much info but thanks for listening. Would love to hear any advice you can give.

Thanks,
Jen & Bill


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

First, you are doing the right thing by asking the questions and doing the research before you buy! It is much more expensive to correct a wrong choice after the deal is made. Second, you are correct on what the dealer tells you -- it's not necessarily accurate and you are much better off to varify for yourself.

I have a 5 and my TT experience is way back there many years ago, but there are a lot of people on this site who can give you good advice. I'm sure they will way-in on this discussion.

However, you have 4 ratings on your vehicle that you definitly need to pay attention to. You have 2 Gross Axle Weight Ratings (GAWR is the load limit for each axle), a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR is the load limit for the entire vehicle), and a Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR is the load limit for the fully load vehicle plus the weight of what you are towing). All are important ratings and none of the ratings (despite what others might tell you) should be ignored or exceeded. The ratings for your vehicle should be posted on the inside of the driver door frame.

To get started, you should weigh each axle of your rig, that is front and rear. You should get the weight with the passengers loaded and full tanks. Maybe even simulate having some cargo by putting in some typical luggage or water jugs or a kayak on top. Whatever, you think you would be carrying in your vehicle when you go camping. Don't forget to add the weight of the hitch itself -- that could be a substantial amount depending on what you get.

Then you take these actual weights and compare them with what your GAWR (each one) and GVWR ratings are. This information will tell you how much hitch weight you can put on the rig. (load leveling hitchs can alter this somewhat by throwing weight forward) Simply compare your anticipated hitch weight with your rear axle GAWR. The hitch weight plus the actual rear axle weight should not exceed the rear axle GAWR. Next, add your estimated hitch weight plus your actual rear axle weight plus your actual front axle weight -- this value should not exceed your GVWR. Finally, you need to estimate what your trailer will weigh. That's kind of tough because you have to add in the weight of propane, fresh water, food, toys, etc. to the dry weight out of the factory. And, depending on where this stuff is placed in the TT, it will change your hitch weight. The combined weight of your fully loaded tow vehicle plus the weight of your fully loaded trailer should not exceed your GCWR.

Can you actually put that much weight in your trailer? OH YEAH! You would be surprised how fast it adds up. Hope this helps. I'm sure some of the other people on the forum will come in with more tips.


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

Ok, first, welcome to Outbackers. I will try to answer things in the order you asked them, to the best of my knowledge.



> The Outback website says gross dry weight of trailer when at full capacity is 6000# the truck is rated for 7000#. I've read about the 75% rule. When you camp do you really take 1300#'s of stuff? Do you have to include passenger in this weight. UGHH!! It's tough being a newbie.


Do you know what the differential gearing is on the Toyota? My Avalanche is also rated for 7000#, and my 26RS also has a 6000# gross wgt. First, you need to understand the weights that you will be dealing with. The 6000# gross wgt is the most the trailer can safely weigh, based on the weakest link in the constuction of the unit. My 26RS has an as delivered wgt. of 4760#. That is a bit different from the 4480# listed on the webpage. That 4760 does not include the wgt of batteries, propane, water, other luggage, all the equipment that you will need to carry like hoses, chocks, leveling boards, grills, food, bikes, etc. (you would be surprised how quickly that stuff can add up). I have yet to weight my trailer as it is loaded, but estimate that I am pushing 5000-5300#. I starting to ramble, anyway, if your Toyota is similarly equipped with HP and Torque as my Avalanche, (285 HP/275 Ft/lb torque I think), and you have at least 3.73:1 gears in the differential, you should be Ok. You won't be setting any speed records going up hill, but it should be sufficient. You should....strike that, you must install an aux. transmission oil cooler if one is not already in place on your truck. Heat is the automatic transmissions worst enemy, and towing that 25RSS, you will generate some heat.



> Also, do you have a hitch recommendation. The dealer said the hitch and sway bars and braking system would be about $850, does this seem high (Upstate NY).


What hitch did the dealer quote you, and what does that $850 include? I paid a higher price for my hitch ($900), but made up for it on the trailer. The dealership actually did a great job installing and setting up everything, which is the exception, so I think it was worth it. I have what is basically a Reese Straight-line. You can get the "Equal-i-zer" for about $400 from RV Wholesalers.com and is a WD hitch as well as a sway control in one package. The Reese set up that I have is a trunnion WD hitch, and a Dual Cam HP sway control. With a 25RSS, which is 25'10" long, I don't think I would use a friction bar sway control. Did the dealer say anything about a brake controller? The Tekonsha Prodigy is about the best on the market, and RV Wholesalers.com has them for about $99.



> The list price we got here at Alpin Haus was $23141.


For the most part, a fair price would be list price minus 25%. I would use the Lakeshore price as a bargaining chip. I don't know how much Alpin Haus will want to deal, but if all they are offering is list, personally, I'd look elsewhere.

Sorry if I typed too much, or confused you at all. If you still have some questions, just ask away. There are many folks here, and we are all in this to help each other get the most out of our Outbacks.

Tim

Sorry, just wanted to add to vdub's comments since he posted while I was typing. 
Don't forget, with a Weight Distributing Hitch, not all of the hitch wgt. will be on the rear axle. The hitch will, as it's name implies transfer roughly half (if everything is set up correctly) to the front axle. Also, the hitch wgt of the TT should be between 10 and 15% of the total trailer wgt, with 12% being the optimum. The important thing to remember is that the hitch wgt needs to counted as cargo in the tow vehicle.

Another thing to consider is the wheel base of the TV. There is a rule of thumb, that I can't seem to remember all the details to (help Y-Guy), but sort of goes like this, 110" of TV WB will tow 20' of trailer length. For every additional 4" in WB, add 1' in trailer length. This rule gets a little more forgiving with vehicles of longer WB (130" or more), like full size pickups, Suburbans, and Excursions.

Hope this doesn't confuse you anymore.

Tim


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

jfred20 said:


> The Outback website says gross dry weight of trailer when at full capacity is 6000# the truck is rated for 7000#. I've read about the 75% rule. When you camp do you really take 1300#'s of stuff? Do you have to include passenger in this weight. UGHH!! It's tough being a newbie.


To be honest a couple things make me nervous, the 4runner has a 109.8" wheelbase i think, and if that's the case the general rule of thumb about wheelbase to trailer length would have you way over. The 25RSS is only 2" shy of 26', the rule of thumb for your wheelbase is about a 20' trailer. Going over by 6' would make me nervous to recommend this setup to you.

As for the trailer weights, I would highly suggest you weigh your 4runner first. Find out its true weight, don't go by what is on the tags. Once you have that weight then add passengers, and other luggage, then you take the full weight of the trailer and carrying capacity and see what your potential GCVW is and then compare that to the sticker on the door jamb of the truck.

My gut is you are looking at to much camper for the 4runner. The dealers will tell you that you can tow a 5th wheel with a Yugo if you let them. You need to know the numbers and how they apply. Even if the engine is powerful there are other things you need to consider.

I am posting the various rules of thumb for you as you consider your purchase. most of all, welcome to the Outbackers and congratulations for asking before you bought the camper. Ultimately the choice is yours.

*Trailer Weight Rule of Thumb*
Maximum trailer weight being towed...should only be 75% of the weight rating of your tow vehicle. (CGWR being taken into consideration). If factory rating is 5,000 lbs. trailer,... a 3750 lb. trailer weight is recommended, etc. If 7,000 lb. trailer is stated,...a 5250 lbs. trailer weight is recommended, etc.

*Wheel Base Rule of Thumb*
A tow vehicle should have a minimum wheel base of 100 inches. A wheel base of 110 inches is recommended for a 20 foot trailer. For every additional foot of trailer length (above 20') add 4 inches to the wheel base. i.e., a 22 foot trailer=118 inches wheel base, a 24 foot trailer=126 inches wheel base. Etc. However, when you get into the larger, full size tow vehicles, such as Surburban's, F-150's, Ram Trucks, etc. this rule relaxes, as these types of vehicles (if properly set up) are capable of towing much larger trailers than this rule would suggest.

*Trailer Frontal Area Rule of Thumb*
Some manufacturers have established guidelines for the maximum trailer frontal area (square footage) which they recommend for safe towing. I read this in a Ford Motor Company publication I recently acquired at a local dealership. Consult your dealer for specifics regarding your tow vehicle.


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## shake1969 (Sep 21, 2004)

Welcome to Outbackers! You'll get some good advice here. I sure did.

2004 Toyota 4Runner 3.4L 4x4 has a 5000lb tow rating. Dealer is dealing you on the 28, in my opinion. Listen to VDub. Weight is the issue.

http://www.bobstravelcenter.com/04towguide.htm

Although I don't know the exact weight, a 25' would also be a bit weighty.

My 21' is about 4500lbs delivered. Plus water, plus television set, plus food, etc, etc. Easy to get over 5k. Tim is correct.

Have the dealer let you hook it up and then take it for a test spin. If he won't, don't buy. It's a big deal.

I've got a draw-tite WD hitch with 800lb bars, and a husky sway controller, and a Tekonsha Envoy brake controller. I got the dealer to throw it all in on the purchase. Wiring included.


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## jfred20 (Oct 18, 2004)

[quote name='shake1969' date='Oct 18 2004, 10:52 PM']
Welcome to Outbackers! You'll get some good advice here. I sure did.

2004 Toyota 4Runner 3.4L 4x4 has a 5000lb tow rating. Dealer is dealing you on the 28, in my opinion. Listen to VDub. Weight is the issue.

My 4Runner is a V8 is 4.7 all time 4WD with 320 lb-ft torque 245 horsepower. I couldn't find the gearing ratio. I checked out the wheelbase, I was concerned about that also. I did ask one dealer (not the one we are talking to now) if we could do a test tow just to see how it felt and the guy looked at me like I had 2 heads. He's also the one who said we could pull a 28BHS.

So, from all the posts I've read I'm thinking we should look at a smaller trailer. We really liked the side slide. I'll have to check out some different models.

Thank you all so much for your advice. 
Jen


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## NDJollyMon (Aug 22, 2003)

Welcome to OUTBACKERS! The 25 RS-S is a great unit. So is the 4 Runner.

Would I pull the 25RS-S with a 4 Runner....NO.
The vehicle is just not large enough for a trailer that size, and I wouldn't FEEL safe. I had a larger Chevy Tahoe and upgraded since.

Those side slides are real nice, but also real heavy. The 25 has a huge queen slide, and it's very heavy too.

Just my opinion.


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## jfred20 (Oct 18, 2004)

NDJollyMon said:


> Welcome to OUTBACKERS! The 25 RS-S is a great unit. So is the 4 Runner.
> 
> Would I pull the 25RS-S with a 4 Runner....NO.
> The vehicle is just not large enough for a trailer that size, and I wouldn't FEEL safe. I had a larger Chevy Tahoe and upgraded since.
> ...


Thank you so much for being candid. I really want this trailer but my 4Runner only has 4000 miles on it so I can't trade it and I'm also not going to ruin it by pulling more than it can handle. I know the dealer would let us walk out of there even knowing what are tow vehicle is, which irks me to say the least.

Thanks for all your help.
Jen


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## illinoisboy (Jun 11, 2004)

jfred20 said:


> shake1969 said:
> 
> 
> > Welcome to Outbackers! You'll get some good advice here. I sure did.
> ...


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## dmbcfd (Sep 8, 2004)

Jen,
My 25RSS weighs 5900lbs with empty tanks. I weighed before our last trip.
I agree, the Forerunner can't do it.
Steve


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## dinglehart (May 30, 2005)

I'm a newbe as well and I saw this post. I also own the same 4Runner model as mentioned before on this thread. Would any of you feel that the 4Runner could pull the 21RS model? It appears to be the smallest offered and I'm in no position to trade in the 4runner.

Any help would be apprecaited.

Dave


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## paigeseanandrachel (May 30, 2005)

I'm also interested in opinions on the 4Runner towing the 23RS. I currently have a 4.0 V6 4Runner fitted with a weight distributing receiver which gives me a tow rating of 6400 lb and a GCWR of 11,100. The combination works fine in eastern North Carolina (with mostly empty tanks and limited cargo). I will be moving to Alaska soon. I'm wondering how much difference the 4.7 V8 would actually make. I'm considering trading the V6 4Runner for a V8 4Runner, but would that be enough to matter? V6 -- 245 hp @ 5200 and 282 ft-lbs @ 3800; V8 -- 270 hp @ 5400 and 330 ft-lbs @ 3400. (Also, the V8 4Runner weights 200 lbs more)


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## Highlander96 (Mar 1, 2005)

Good afternoon everyone!

Try plugging some numbers into this towing calculator. It will shed some light on your situations and you can make educated decisions from there.

http://www.rvtowingtips.com

I would be a little leary of the 23RS with a V6. JMHO!







The 21RS would probably be fine. Again, JMHO! Plug the numbers into the calculator from your door sticker and see what they say.

Good Luck!

Tim


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

It is always a matter of weight and what ratings are stamped on your door frame. I don't know, but it is possible that the GVWR and GCWR for a 4Runner may not change significantly whether you have a V6 or V8 since there are other factors such as weight rating of the tires, specs on the axle/bearings, and, of course, the transmission. If, for instance, your transmission was the limiting factor for your max weight rating and if the trans did not change from one model to another, then it is likely the weight ratings wouldn't either. And no matter what you do to the vehicle to boost it's capabilities, such as add a trans cooler or put in more leaf springs, air shocks, etc, nothing will change the manufactured rating as posted on the driver's door panel.

The only way to know what is safe and possible is to fill up your TV with gas, toys, kids and wife, then go weigh each axle. At that point, you have a basis to work from. Then use one of the calculators already mentioned. Many TT people will tell you to not get a TT that is any more than 75% of your capability. Also, when towing with small vehicles like an Explorer, 4Runner, Blazer, etc, it might be a good idea to check the manual for what kind of frontal area is permitted. This is not a huge issue with larger TV's, but with the small ones, it could be a big factor. Believe, my '98 Explorer is only supposed to have a TT frontal area of 60sf -- about 8'x8'.


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## RobR (May 25, 2005)

I have an 03 25rss and i had towed it with a tahoe it was ok. Now i have an avalanche 5.3 w/ 4.10 gears. this truck will pull 8000lbs. with a combined gross d vehicle weight of 14000 lbs. I dont think a 4 runner has a capacity this high . I would check that also. I just weighed my trailer on saturday it weighed in at 5840lbs with minimal stuff ( propane, Battery, dishes & pot, linens) no food or clothes. Keep that in mind. I hope this will help you make your decision.


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## Ymryl (Mar 2, 2004)

Here comes the voice of experience...

I pulled a 2004 21RS with an 2003 4Runner V8 Sport (just like you have) last year - and then upgraded to the Armada and 28RSS. The 4-Runner will pull the 21RS just fine. Be prepared for the RPM's run around 5,000 - 5,500 when going up hill however. As for theoriginal question, concerning pulling a 25 RSS, my flat out answer must be no way. period.


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## RobR (May 25, 2005)

dmbcfd said:


> Jen,
> My 25RSS weighs 5900lbs with empty tanks. I weighed before our last trip.
> I agree, the Forerunner can't do it.
> Steve
> [snapback]16823[/snapback]​


hey Steve watch the weight the axles are only rated for 5500 lbs W a gvw of 6000lbs I am fighting w keystone on that matter. The axle isnt heavy enough for the trailer 
RobR


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## stfd79 (Sep 30, 2003)

I have a 2004 4runner V-8 & tow a 25RSS with no problem. I've been towing it for over a year now which have included trips 1,000 mile trips thru mountains. I have the equalizer hitch. The V-8 come standard with the transmission cooler & the actual weight rating is 7,300# when using a weight dist. hitch. Last year on a trip to Myrtle Beach thru the Smokey mountains, I had no problems keeping up with our other two friends who were driving an F-350 diesel & an Armada. Out average speed was around 72 mph. I also thought there may be a problem with the wheelbase length, but it handles great & the V-8 has plenty of power to spare.


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## fixjet (Jan 19, 2004)

I weighed the truck and trailer today.

Truck ( Plus 25RSS )

Front axle 3640 ( 3680 )
Rear Axle 3520 ( 4060 )
Total 7180 ( 12940 )

25RSS weigth 5760 with empty tanks one LP empty
580 Tongue weight.
5180 25rss minus tongue weight
trailer had empty tanks but did have the pantry full of food, all bedding, lawn chairs. It will be alittle heavier with the fridge full, clothing, and 10 gallons of water or so. I think I will be adjusting the Equalizer to get a little more of the tongue weight on the front axle of the truck.


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## outbackgeorgia (Jan 28, 2004)

It might be a lot simpler than what has been discussed, IF your vehicle is actually rated to tow 5000 lbs.
The smallest Outback 21RS is rated at 5500 lbs gross. 
This is 500 lbs OVER.
Your insurance will not be valid with this setup.
Everything else is a good discussion, BUT there is a reason for these ratings.
Also, the rear axle ratio is important as it changes the tow rating, all else being equal!
The dealer tried to sell me a larger trailer, but believe me he did not discuss his liability if there was a problem and my insurance was invalid because I exceeded the manufacturers ratings!

Outbackgeorgia


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Thanks for the numbers Dan. It's always interesting to see what things weigh in the real world. Kinda gives others an idea of what their weights might be too


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## hiker (Jul 23, 2005)

I was wondering what kind of mirrors you are using on your Toyota? I have a Sequoia and a new 21RS. The clip-on-mirrors are aweful but I cannot locate any mirrors to fit my Sequoia. Any good solutions out there?


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