# Fuel Mileage



## BigLeaf (Mar 15, 2005)

Hey there again everyone.

This has probably been discussed over and over again on the forum and at least once by me, but I'm gonna ask again.

Anybody out there got a Ford HD 6.0L PowerStroke Diesel engine, V8? If you do, what kinda fuel mileage do you get when you tow and when you don't tow?










Also, does anybody out there got a Ford 5.4L gas engine, V8? What kinda mpg do you get when YOU tow?

Thankx for your patience everyone . I have a hard time making up my mind.


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## dmbcfd (Sep 8, 2004)

I have a 99 F350 with a 5.4L gas engine. As you can tell by my signature, I'm not crazy about it, and I do carry a lot of extra weight. I get 11-12 mpg when not towing and 7 mpg while towing. That steel cap and the contents I leave in it when traveling weigh about 1000 lbs. I am in the process of removing it and installing an aluminum tool box. I don't do the type of work I used to when I bought the thing and it's no longer needed.

Now that I do more towing with a heavier trailer, I have come to realize that the 5.4 is not strong enough. It revs at over 4000 rpms and I barely maintain 55 on long hills in second gear. The tranny was rebuilt in December at 90,000 miles. The next truck will be a GMC with either a 8.1 L gas or Duramax diesel with the Allison 5 speed auto. I am really leaning toward the diesel.

When the extra weight comes off this truck I will post the new mileage and performance after the next trip.

Steve


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## Parker Outbacker (Dec 17, 2004)

I've got a 2004 F250 PSD.

Highway no trailer ~18 MPG
Around town ~14 MPG
Towing ~13-14 MPG

Keep in mind that my truck is barely broken in, I've only got 9,000 miles on her.

When I purchased the truck I was told that I should get around 20...that's a dealer talking as well, but I'm holding out hope that I might get to that.









Absolutely love it!! Going up the continental divide (I-70)...a breeze. Nice to have the power when I need it.

Are you truck hunting??

Just curious.

Ron


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

What Ron (Parker Outbacker) said. Besides the stump pulling power, the other reason I bought the PSD was the expected mpg.

I did a spreadsheet to project payback time with the PSD versus a gasser. Although fuel prices are an uncertainty, I figure that the PSD engine will be paid off and putting money in my pocket somewhere around 50,000 miles.









Bill


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

I did the same thing, figuring the 8.1 and the Duramax, both with the Allison. Only a $3600 difference in price then. For the miles I drive, about 45,000-50,000 miles to break even. Of course, I didn't figure in the increased oil changes, and fuel filters on the diesel. That will lean things more towards the big block.

Tim


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## 76 cougar (Jan 30, 2005)

Have the 5.4 in an expedition. Pulling my 21rs last trip I was getting 9.75, and was loaded heavy.


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## TNFiddler (Jun 13, 2005)

I've got a 2004 5.4L XLT Lariat 2 wheel drive - just got back from the mountains pulling my new 21RS - I averaged about 9.7 mpg. I wish it had some more power going up some hills, but it did fine. I held it around 62-65 mph the whole way.

When I'm not pulling anything - I average around 18-19 - yes, 18-19!

TNF


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## fixjet (Jan 19, 2004)

After having my 8.1 for a while now and comparing it to my brothers Duramax. I will spend $2600 more on fuel (at todays prices) in 100,000 miles than he will. Which for this truck would be 6-7 years. Not to bad considering the price difference in the two. The gasser works better for us anyway because of the amount of short trips hauling kids etc.


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## jbglenn (Mar 23, 2004)

I have a 03 excursion with the 6.0 PSD. I pull my 21rs with ease and can accelarate up any alaskan hill. There's night and day difference between my dodge with the hemi and this pulling machine. I average 12-13 towing @70 mph and loaded and around 18-21 on the interstate not towing @75. I know it's a little overkill for the 21rs but it has more room and I can grow into it.


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

Fixjet,

If it turns that way, I'd say you made a good move. But how it will turn out could be different due to fuel price increases in the future. Making the right choice requires an accurate crystal ball and/or some luck.

The more fuel costs, the sooner a diesel will pay for itself. If I enter today's fuel prices into my spreadsheet, my diesel's initial cost will be recouped in 85,000 miles. That includes oil, oil filters and fuel filters too. If I project fuel at a $3 per gallon average, then the extra cost is paid off in slightly less than 40,000 miles.

Obviously, since we aren't privy to what OPEC has planned, we don't know what we will be paying for fuel in the future. But my above analysis tells me that I'm better off with the diesel, based upon fuel costs and oil/filter changes. If I ever have to replace an engine, that will be expensive. But diesels are supposed to go 300,000 miles, so who knows?

The other benefit of buying the PSD is the awesome power under my right foot as well as the (presumably) better re-sale value when I choose to sell. Still, 5 large is a lot of extra dough when we buy.

Bill


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

cookie, just wondering, what is the price of diesel vs. gasoline up where you live. Right now, 87 oct. gasoline is 2.23/gal and diesel is 2.45/gal. I remember in the old days, diesel was ALWAYS cheaper then gasoline. I guess that demand is up, as more and more homes are heated by oil, and more light trucks are powered by diesels.

Has anyone in Outbacker land used bio-diesel in their truck?

Tim


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## MAYZ83 (Mar 24, 2005)

03 Expedition with 5.4. I get 15 on the highway, and 8-8.5 towing the 23RS. I can tell a difference when I am full of water or have a heavy wind. Last weekend struggled to keep it @ 60 with a head wind. Shifted up and down in tow/haul. Looking for an excursion!


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## Hollander (May 15, 2005)

We just finished our first week long trip from Delaware to Cape Cod. I have a 2004 Excursion with the 6.0 psd and it performed awesome! Left it on cruise as much as I could and in CT on some hills it would downshift a few times. I averaged 11.8 to 12 mpg. towing the 27rsds @ 70mph. Not towing I easily get about 20mpg on hwy and 17/18 in town. the extra power is worth it to me.


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## hurricaneplumber (Apr 12, 2004)

2003 Ford F-150 Supercrew (4-door truck) 5.4 engine with 3.73 gears. 17" wheels

28BHS-stuffed

Lowest: 7.5 mpg
Highest: 8 mpg

Average: somewhere in between the above numbers.

Summary: Bad, but I bought the camper to get out and camp, an extra 40-50 bucks for gas is just not going out to dinner one night a month.

Kevin


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## Sidewinder (Feb 25, 2005)

I'm with you Kevin,

I just did the math on the "Diesel" thing. I only tow about 2K miles per year...at most. Figuring in only fuel, the gasser costs me a little over $300 extra per year. I figure it would take me just over 64 years to recoupe the $20K difference I will have to spend to get a new F250 Lariat crew cab FX4 6.0 PSD. But can you REALLY put a price tag on the instant testosterone injection created when you ease down on the throttle of a diesel engine and FEEL the torque as the turbo whines???????? I'm still trying to justify it, but I'm not holding my breath!

But to answer the original question.....We went to Luray, VA from Mechanicsville, VA this weekend. MapQuest says it's 131 miles. I burned about 16 gallons each way for a whopping 8.5mpg average.

Sidewinder


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## jgerni (Nov 10, 2003)

I went through the same justification process when purchasing my 2500HD recently. I really wanted the diesel but couldn't find one in my price range without 150K miles on it. Plus I would only tow about 3000 to 4000 miles a year to boot. I ended up with the 8.1L gas which gives the same towing specs as the diesel.

The 8.1L gets about 9-10mpg towing the Outback and only gets about 12-14 when not towing.

In my calculations I found that if you are driving the truck 15,000 miles per year then go diesel.

Sidewinder, how did you like Luray? Which campground did you stay at?


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

HCHH,

A few days ago, I bought regular gas for $2.07/gallon at Costco. Same day, I saw diesel for $2.39/gallon. I haven't paid that much for diesel yet, but that won't last. This morning I was informed that crude oil prices went to $59/barrel, which may be a new high. I haven't seen the fuel prices yet today, but the reported crude prices will probably be jacking our prices by at least 20 more cents.









_For the following, I am assuming 12 mpg for my diesel and (had I made this choice) 8 mpg for a large gas engine._If I plug the $2.07 and $2.39 of several days ago into my spreadsheet, my break-even will happen at just under 85,000 miles. If I add 20 cents a gallon to each, the break-even will occur at under 72,000 miles. If I add another 20 cents to each, it happens at 64,000 miles. Another 20 cents makes it 57,000 miles. If both gas and diesel are selling at $3/gallon, break-even happens at 38,000 miles.

Certainly, future fuel prices are only guesses. If gas sells for more than diesel in the future, things will get better for diesel owners. One thing for sure, it will cost us all more and more, no matter what type of engine we have.







I hope we will be able to afford it!


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## Sidewinder (Feb 25, 2005)

Josh,

We went to Yogi's Jellystone Campground....It's one of our favorites. You just can't beat sipping on a hot cup of coffee on a brisk morning overlooking the Blue Ridge Mountains. We had a blast. As cold as the pool water was, the kids (and most of us big kids) went down the water slide and got in the pools.

Sidewinder


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## campingwiththe6pac (Sep 22, 2004)

I have an 02 excursion V10 373 gears. I get 14.5 on the road at 65 unloaded and about 13 at 75. In town 8-10, depends on how much stop and go you do. At idle it really seems to drink it down.

Towing the 04 28rss loaded and 6 kids at 70 I get 7.5. Slower speeds get it up to 9. The big difference is the power. I can do 75 and it is not working hard. I can pull hills and not down shift to second. My 454 Burb always needed to down shift on the same hills and scream at close to 3800RPM to hold 60-65 on hills I run up now at 75 and 3000RPM.


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## 7heaven (Jun 4, 2005)

We have an E150 Club Wagon with the 5.4L and got 9.5 MPG on our recent trip. I guess I should be giddy over it.....







I'm thinking about upgrading to the V10 also for pulling power.


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## RCColby (Oct 12, 2004)

I get 12 mpg towing the Outback 5er at around 62 mph highway. Not towing at 70-72 mph I am getting 21 mpg with my '04 2500 HD crew cab durmax. I average 16-17 around town in warm weather,cold weather it is somewhat less. Gotta love it in spite of the rather stiff ride, noise and odor.
Bob


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## campingwiththe6pac (Sep 22, 2004)

7heaven said:


> We have an E150 Club Wagon with the 5.4L and got 9.5 MPG on our recent trip. I guess I should be giddy over it.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


7th heven,

You will love the power no dought. The V-10 is an excellent motor. It does like to drink a bit much when your foot is feeling the need to strtech out.

&th heven, does that have to do with the size of the family?


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## MGWorley (May 29, 2005)

I have the F-250 and am getting 17-18 mpg combination city/highway not towing. Towing I average 12.5. I have around 11,500 miles on the truck and do watch my take offs.
I was going to go for the 350 but could not justify it when the 250's numbers were more than enough for the rig I bought.
Mike


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## uoutcampin2 (Mar 3, 2005)

Ok for all you diesel guys out thereâ€¦..

When I read that Jim "hatcityhosehauler" mentioned about Bio Diesel, I had remembered about 2 or 3 weeks ago, I was watching this episode of Trucks and they introduced this contraction. For an investment of 3 grand you could make 40 gallons of bio diesel fuel in your garage every 2 days. This could help with your fuel cost because they claim that it will only cost you about .70 cents a gallon. All you need to do is check out one of your local fast food joints and ask for their used vegetable oil. And believe me they will be more than happy to give it to you. Second, find a place that sells methanol and hit home depot for some lye and you are set. Less black smoke from the pipe and your exhaust will smell like French fries while it is running.









Here is the Link.

Chris


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

Hi Mike,

That's a great-looking rig sitting in your driveway.









Just wondering about your canoe though. It looks like it would snap in two unless the front is supported.







Is that a support or ropes at the front?

Bill


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## dougdogs (Jul 31, 2004)

uoutcampin2 said:


> Ok for all you diesel guys out thereâ€¦..
> 
> When I read that Jim "hatcityhosehauler" mentioned about Bio Diesel, I had remembered about 2 or 3 weeks ago, I was watching this episode of Trucks and they introduced this contraction. For an investment of 3 grand you could make 40 gallons of bio diesel fuel in your garage every 2 days. This could help with your fuel cost because they claim that it will only cost you about .70 cents a gallon. All you need to do is check out one of your local fast food joints and ask for their used vegetable oil. And believe me they will be more than happy to give it to you. Second, find a place that sells methanol and hit home depot for some lye and you are set. Less black smoke from the pipe and your exhaust will smell like French fries while it is running.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that is a cool setup, but at an initial investment of 3995 for the equipment, it will be a long time (if ever) to get to .70 a gallon (not to mention possible warrenty issues)


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

Chris,

Three grand sounds awful expensive. My buddy at work has assembled all the equipment he needs for less then $500. He hasn't perfected everything yet, but has secured an oil supply, and is still shopping around for the methanol supplier. That stuff is expensive when you buy it by the gallon.

European countries are already using it, blending it with petro-diesel. I think Germany uses as much as a 25% mix, the UK, something like 10%. Some of the studies I have seen show less greenhouse gases being produced by the bio product, and less particulate matter in the exhaust.

I have also read somewhere that the big three do not recommend the burning of said fuels in their oil burners. Can anyone confirm that? If so, is it because the oil companies and the big three have a lot of the same share holders?

Rudolf Diesel allegdedly invented the diesel engine to run farm equipment, on bio-diesel.

Tim


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## MGWorley (May 29, 2005)

cookie9933 said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> That's a great-looking rig sitting in your driveway.
> 
> ...


Hi Bill,

I use 4 Yakima straps ... 1 on the bow, 1 on the stern and 2 in the middle. No support in front.

I just did a round trip of over 600 miles and it did great.

I kept the front strap taunt but not so tight as to create a downward bend in the body of the canoe.

I was a bit concerned but had seen other similar setups with no problems. The Yakima roof rack held its place with no issues.

Mike


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## dougdogs (Jul 31, 2004)

hatcityhosehauler said:


> I have also read somewhere that the big three do not recommend the burning of said fuels in their oil burners. Can anyone confirm that? If so, is it because the oil companies and the big three have a lot of the same share holders?
> 
> Rudolf Diesel allegdedly invented the diesel engine to run farm equipment, on bio-diesel.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure Duramax(GM) allows for 10% bio-diesel mixure.


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## uoutcampin2 (Mar 3, 2005)

hatcityhosehauler said:


> Chris,
> 
> Three grand sounds awful expensive. My buddy at work has assembled all the equipment he needs for less then $500. He hasn't perfected everything yet, but has secured an oil supply, and is still shopping around for the methanol supplier. That stuff is expensive when you buy it by the gallon.
> 
> ...


I was thinking the same thing. Watching the episode of Trucks, there really isn't much to this thing. One 40 or so gallon tank and another 5 gallon tank, pump and some hoses and you are done. You will also need that PH type testing thing to figure out how much Lye you need to add. About the Methanol, I was thinking the same thing. Where in the heck do you find that stuff?







I mean its not like going to your local grocery store and find it on the shelf.









Chris


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

Here is a source for methanol: http://shop2.chemassociates.com/shopsite/C...&OVMTC=standard

From this particular source, it seems kinda pricey. Cheapest per-gallon price is $372 for 55 gallons, which is about $6.75 per gallon. But this source seems to be a chemical supplier selling laboratory-grade methanol. Maybe there is a grade available, intended for engines, that costs less.

Not so. Here's another link : http://www.hiperfuels.com/index.cgi?PageTo...&ExpandedDepts=

This methanol is from Sunoco, intended to be used in internal combustion engines. Costs $10.25 per gallon in 5 gallon quantity.

I think I will just keep buying petro-diesel for now. Besides, Ford owner's manual says NOT to use bio-diesel.

Bill


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## stapless (Feb 20, 2005)

hatcityhosehauler said:


> Chris,
> 
> Three grand sounds awful expensive. My buddy at work has assembled all the equipment he needs for less then $500. He hasn't perfected everything yet, but has secured an oil supply, and is still shopping around for the methanol supplier. That stuff is expensive when you buy it by the gallon.
> 
> ...


my dad is in oil business - delivers gas to farmers in rural minnesota. he has mentioned that minnesota was going to mandate a percentage of biodiesel in every gallon sold in MN. not sure if that ever passed the legislature, but haven't discussed it with him lately either.

scott


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

I think blends will be the way of the future. I'm not an expert, but I would imagine that blending with bio-diesel is one way to lower the sulfar content, which will be mandated in the next few years, I think.

You can also burn the stuff in your oil fired burner/boiler. Just have to change out the copper lines, and natural rubber seals with a material called viton or something like that.

Even if your paying 6.75/gallon for the methanol, your cost per gallon of bio-diesel would still be lower then petro-diesel. Especially if your getting the vegetable oil for free from the resturant.

It is definately worth more research on my part. I will be doing some reading.

I'm curious, does the Ford manual say way you shouldn't use it in the powerstroke?
Tim


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

Tim,

I have been interested in bio-diesel and I happened to see the the recent episode of *Trucks* showcasing bio-diesel. This "show and tell" made the whole process seem less daunting. Anyway, good idea, you keep researching and maybe get started producing some home brew so you can tell us all about it. By the way, do you know how many gallons of methanol it takes to make 40 gallons of bio-diesel?

I don't have my PSD manual here in front of me to reference. But I will fetch the manual and see if they give a reason. Seems they said something like 'bio-diesel fuel does not meet established specifications for fuel for your engine' or some such words.

Bill


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## wingnut (Mar 21, 2005)

Hey Y'all

I had a meeting this morning with the regional reps from Cummins engine. Part of the meeting was to discuss the new 2007 EPA emmissions for diesel engines. Because of the new standards, by mid next year the oil companies will have to start manufactoring ultra low sulfer fuel. This new blend will burn in a different manner than what we use today and will require most diesel engines to be outfitted with an air cleaner similiar to a catalytic converter. Engines produced before this change will be exempt, however the timing of the injection pump may have to be reset so that engine does not run to hot. with the changes that have to be made, the price of diesel fuel is expected to increase 15-20%. At todays price that would be an increase of up to .45. That means diesel could be at $3.00 per gallon while gas would still be close to todays price. This really puts the bite on me as a truck salesman, but might put a bigger bite on those who have diesels as TV's.

FYI


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## aplvlykat (Jan 25, 2004)

OUCH, 3.00 a gallon, I'am glad I stayed with gas. Kirk


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

> That means diesel could be at $3.00 per gallon while gas would still be close to todays price.


and for a fuel that is cheaper to refine than gasoline......kinda makes you wonder now doesn't it. I remember when diesel used to be much cheaper then gas.



> By the way, do you know how many gallons of methanol it takes to make 40 gallons of bio-diesel?


I will let you know. The guy at work has made a batch on the stove at the firehouse, I will ask him what the ratio is. I think he was still projecting his final product cost to be less then $1.00 a gallon.

Tim


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## wingnut (Mar 21, 2005)

If I am not mistaken, in it's present form diesel is a by product of making gasoline. However when the new standard is implemented the additional refinement will increase the cost. This says nothing of the cost of the catalyst. Cummins has estimated that the after treatment will have to be reconditioned at certain intervals depending on the use of the engine. They will have a recon and core program for this. As a dealer we looked into the machine for the recon work. this has a sticker price of $50k. it is just another example of the government sticking it's nose in and messing up another industry. I am still not convinced that with the fuel mileage we were seeing before the 2004 standards, we weren't putting less NOX in the air than now. IMHO.


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

Just checked with my friend, he told me the methanol content at the beginning of the process is 20% of the total mixture, and that there are way's to recover a good bit of that during the process.

Tim


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