# What's This Sound Like



## LaydBack

Everyone feel free to chime in. I'm new to camping and towing, so I'm still trying to figure out what's normal and what is cause for concern. I've spent hours on here reading up on hitching theory and setup views. I have the Reese Strait Line setup with 1200 lb. bars and a 3/4 ton truck. I've been tooling around fine and feeling pretty confident on the road with big rigs. The only thing that I'd experienced to cause a slight concern, was that some stretches of road made me feel as if the trailer was bouncing the back of the truck (not sure if this is normal, and on a couple of occaisions, it hasn't felt like it lifts the truck off of the ground, but it is noticeable that as the truck feels like it is at the height of the bounce, the trailer seems to nudge/push/ the truck). That's never made me feel like I was not in control, just feels awkard when you don't realize that you just went over a bump or low spot in the road, and it catches you by surprise. Last weekend we took a trip and I'd have to say I, for the 1st time, experienced what I would call sway with passing big rigs. It seemed as if when they approached the rear of the trailer, I would seem to drift toward their lane, and as they got along side of truck and trailer, I'd be able to get things under control. No problem once they got along side and passed, and no problem if I passed them or ran with them, just when they passed me. I would say that the trailer was pretty much loaded the same as it always is, and the truck had a bit more stuff in the bed (2 coolers, 2 5 gallon water bottles, 20 lb. propane cylinder, chairs, camp stove), as I've never loaded it when I'm just tooling around getting the feel of towing the trailer. We were hauling more stuff than we'd usually have because we'd organized a large group to go on this trip. I'd have to say that the coolers and water bottles were behind the truck's rear axles, and the propane tank, chairs, and camp stove were forward of the truck's rear axle, so there was definitely more weight behind the axle than in front (not counting us in the cab...me, DW, & 2 DSs (6&7). All of my tanks were empty in travel, and I've towed it before with the fresh tank full, without experiencing any issues.

The trailer's at the dealer now, and I've not taken my setup to the scales. I plan to, but I don't think I have any GAWR issues, and am convinced that this is something to do with loading of the truck or hitch setup. When I hitched it up to take it to the dealer, after unloading the truck, I did measure the wheel wells before and after hitching. I'm using 5 links on the Dual Cam, and the cams sit in the detents in the bars. The back of the truck squats about 5/8-3/4" and I'd say the front raised about that same amount. For what it's worth I measured the truck prior to hitching in my driveway, but I had to take the hitched measurements on a level spot on the street, as my driveway is sloped. I had mentioned to the dealer (who set it up) that I thought the trailer might be a touch high in the front, though it doesn't look radically high.

I'm hopefully going to get the trailer back mid-week, and at this point am just looking for hunches from more experienced towers. For all I know this could be normal, but I don't think it is, as typically I don't feel anything from the big rigs. My theory is that since they were for the most part passing me on the left: As they approached the trailer, their air stream pushed the the rear of the trailer to the right, which caused the front of the trailer/rear of truck to want to drift left toward their lane, and as they got more along side of the trailer and truck, that force was more even and I'd then be able to get it under control. Of course, what do I know. I feel that it's obviously something I did for that particular trip, as prior to that trip, this was not an issue. Thanks in advance.


----------



## luverofpeanuts

srwsr said:


> Everyone feel free to chime in. I'm new to camping and towing, so I'm still trying to figure out what's normal and what is cause for concern.


Well, there is no harm in always monitoring your towing experiences. #1 thing I've learned is never fall for the "you don't even feel it back there" line from other people that tow. It's all relative.. and that statement relative. I currently have an F250 diesel, and I can tell my less than 1000 pound sailboat is back there.

I've towed our Sydney OB 290RLS in some very high winds. You can be pushed around now matter how strong your truck or anti-sway setup is. In general, I think, if you find yourself affected too much by passing semi's or other trailers, and the wind isn't overly affecting things, then I think you could inspect your anti-sway device to see its properly setup.

It thinks it's a good idea to weigh your vehicle at the scales.. .however many iterations it takes to get all the weights.. especially hitch weight. After you double check your WD hitch setup then, you can try to eliminate any hobby horsing that is going on. On my previous setup (Expedition w/ 23 footer), I had some decent hobby horsing over rough roads, because the coil springs on the Expy weren't as resistant to it as the leaf springs on the F250... coils made for a better ride when not towing...but bounced alot when towing. Towing with some freshwater weight (depends on where the tank is).. can be beneficial to tune the tongue weight for prevention of hobby horsing.

Wish I had more specifics for you, but I can share your pain of wanting to make sure your setup is setup right!

Good luck!


----------



## CamperAndy

I would suggest you go through the entire set up procedure yourself and see if all the dimensions are correct. It sounds like you may not have enough weight transfer as you really do not want the front to lift. I would think you need more tilt to the head.

Also do all your adjustments with the truck and trailer loaded for a typical trip, you mentioned the water tank, that could be a 400 pound difference in the loading of the combination. It can change the towing feel significantly.


----------



## willingtonpaul

if the trailer felt that squirrelly, like the tail wagging the dog, low tongue weight can be the culprit. are you sure you were not loaded differently for this trip, with more weight in the rear of the trailer ? also as mentioned, no fresh water in the tank up front (i am pretty certain your water tank is up front like mine) will definitely make a difference. i always travel with a 3/4 to full fresh water tank, i have to for tongue weight.

depending on weather conditions, you can feel the semi's give you a little push when they come up behind you. sometimes more, sometimes less, but the bump is usually always there. its just like when you tuck in behind them, you are getting better fuel mileage, but the airwash they throw gives you a crappy ride.


----------



## LaydBack

CamperAndy said:


> I would suggest you go through the entire set up procedure yourself and see if all the dimensions are correct. It sounds like you may not have enough weight transfer as you really do not want the front to lift. I would think you need more tilt to the head.
> 
> Also do all your adjustments with the truck and trailer loaded for a typical trip, you mentioned the water tank, that could be a 400 pound difference in the loading of the combination. It can change the towing feel significantly.


Exactly what I was thinking, as far as the weight transfer and head tilt. I just wasn't sure of which way on the head tilt, in terms of transferring the weight more to the front axle, while not lifting the front of the trailer at the same time. I was just going to go down the street to the level church lot and do a little trial and error. I was also wondering about the theory of lesser spring bars because of the 3/4 ton truck.

I have mostly towed it with an empty fresh water tank. I have towed it with a full fresh water tank, and haven't noticed a difference. I do think I will consider towing with fresh water in the tank, I'm just of the belief that when it comes to towing water, a full tank is better than a partially filled tank. It seems there would be less sloshing around, which I think would yield a lesser chance of damage to the TT with that amount of weight.

Thanks to all of you, keep the good info coming.


----------



## LaydBack

willingtonpaul said:


> if the trailer felt that squirrelly, like the tail wagging the dog, low tongue weight can be the culprit. are you sure you were not loaded differently for this trip, with more weight in the rear of the trailer ? also as mentioned, no fresh water in the tank up front (i am pretty certain your water tank is up front like mine) will definitely make a difference. i always travel with a 3/4 to full fresh water tank, i have to for tongue weight.
> 
> depending on weather conditions, you can feel the semi's give you a little push when they come up behind you. sometimes more, sometimes less, but the bump is usually always there. its just like when you tuck in behind them, you are getting better fuel mileage, but the airwash they throw gives you a crappy ride.


Thanks for chiming in. I was loaded differently for this trip, but it was in the truck bed. I know to not put heavy things in the rear of the trailer, and basically all that is back there is the kids clothes, toys (nothing big or bulky), and a plastic folding table. The outdoor kitchen has drinks in the fridge, the little gas grill that comes with the TT, and a few dishes (heaviest being the dutch oven and a small cast iron griddle). Basically this stuff has always been back there and never caused an issue. Surprisingly, I think we are rather lightly loaded in the TT. There's really nothing in the storage under the dinette, sofas, or bed. Basically everything is in the cabinets and the pass thru storage.

Sorry, but what are you referring to when you say "the bump is usually always there"?


----------



## LaydBack

Thank you both.


luverofpeanuts said:


> if the trailer felt that squirrelly, like the tail wagging the dog, low tongue weight can be the culprit. are you sure you were not loaded differently for this trip, with more weight in the rear of the trailer ? also as mentioned, no fresh water in the tank up front (i am pretty certain your water tank is up front like mine) will definitely make a difference. i always travel with a 3/4 to full fresh water tank, i have to for tongue weight.
> 
> depending on weather conditions, you can feel the semi's give you a little push when they come up behind you. sometimes more, sometimes less, but the bump is usually always there. its just like when you tuck in behind them, you are getting better fuel mileage, but the airwash they throw gives you a crappy ride.


The difference in the loading for this trip was all in the truck bed. I think we are really sparsely loaded in the trailer. Clothes, groceries, linens, kids toys, that's pretty much it. Both drawers under both sofas are empty, as is the storage space under the dinette and the queen bed up front. When you refer to "but the bump is usually always there", are you speaking of the initial reaction the trailer has to the semi? If so, I can honestly say, it's never happened until this trip. I've actually been pretty impressed with the Reese, for that particular reason.


----------



## willingtonpaul

srwsr said:


> Sorry, but what are you referring to when you say "the bump is usually always there"?


the "bump" is the little push you feel when a semi comes up behind you. you always feel that, no matter what.


----------



## LaydBack

willingtonpaul said:


> Sorry, but what are you referring to when you say "the bump is usually always there"?


the "bump" is the little push you feel when a semi comes up behind you. you always feel that, no matter what.
[/quote]

Thanks for clearing that up, I was pretty sure that was what you meant, but didn't want to assume. Some how, I ended up with a double post (system told me the first post failed). At any rate, what I am arriving at is that I don't have a enough tongue weight, especially for the 1200 lb. bars and 3/4 ton suspension. This is actually taking weight off of the front axle of the TV, which added with the extra weight (coolers, water bottles, etc.) behind the rear axle of the TV, obviously magnified the effect of the passing semis. Someone tell me that makes sense.......or not, if it doesn't. If so, then it appears I do indeed need to figure out how to transfer more weight forward. Obviously, put the heavier items toward the front of the truck bed, but in terms of hitch adjustment, I'll have to study up. It seems that the obvious thing to do would be to use less links, but if I'm already at the minimum of 5, then there must be either a head height or tilt adjustment necessary. Excuse me for thinking out loud, but how else would I or you guys know when I'm thinking wrong???......and somebody, anybody, please let me know if I am. 
Thanks


----------



## CamperAndy

All of your last post makes sense to me.

So start with head tilt and maintain the same number of links and this will cause more weight transfer.


----------



## duggy

srwsr said:


> I had mentioned to the dealer (who set it up) that I thought the trailer might be a touch high in the front, though it doesn't look radically high.


When all is properly set up, the measurement to the beltline of the trailer should be the same at the front and back, or maybe an inch lower at the front.


----------



## duggy

srwsr said:


> I just wasn't sure of which way on the head tilt, in terms of transferring the weight more to the front axle, while not lifting the front of the trailer at the same time.
> 
> I was also wondering about the theory of lesser spring bars because of the 3/4 ton truck.


To transfer more weight to the front axle, tilt the top of the head rearward. By doing that, it will raise the rear of the truck, and also the front of the trailer. If the front of the trailer is too high, lower the hitchhead on the shank.

I was thinking when I first read your post, that your spring bars may be a little heavy. The problem with heavier spring bars is that they don't require as much pre-load, and are stiffer, so when you drive over variations in the road, there is more bucking as the bars are loaded and unloaded.


----------



## Nathan

willingtonpaul said:


> Sorry, but what are you referring to when you say "the bump is usually always there"?


the "bump" is the little push you feel when a semi comes up behind you. you always feel that, no matter what.
[/quote]
I'd also add that the wash off a semi (or at least it's effects) varies greatly with wind conditions and speeds. Sometimes I don't feel it at all and othertimes it can be significant....


----------



## LaydBack

Well, I've got more time to study up on hitch setup, so keep the tips coming. Look what happened at the dealer today. The rubber seal running down the side of the front cap is a stock item, but they have to order the decal. Luckily it missed the awning support. The fiberglass and filon just appear to have surface scratches/scrapes/scuffs. I don't think it got the rain gutter either. I'll probably go by and try and get better pictures tomorrow. SUCKS......but I've experienced enough unrepairable mishaps to not sweat the things that can be fixed.

View attachment 1813
View attachment 1812


----------



## CamperAndy

srwsr said:


> Well, I've got more time to study up on hitch setup, so keep the tips coming. Look what happened at the dealer today. The rubber seal running down the side of the front cap is a stock item, but they have to order the decal. Luckily it missed the awning support. The fiberglass and filon just appear to have surface scratches/scrapes/scuffs. I don't think it got the rain gutter either. I'll probably go by and try and get better pictures tomorrow. SUCKS......but I've experienced enough unrepairable mishaps to not sweat the things that can be fixed.


Did the dealer do that or did you have a Gilligan moment?


----------



## LaydBack

CamperAndy said:


> Well, I've got more time to study up on hitch setup, so keep the tips coming. Look what happened at the dealer today. The rubber seal running down the side of the front cap is a stock item, but they have to order the decal. Luckily it missed the awning support. The fiberglass and filon just appear to have surface scratches/scrapes/scuffs. I don't think it got the rain gutter either. I'll probably go by and try and get better pictures tomorrow. SUCKS......but I've experienced enough unrepairable mishaps to not sweat the things that can be fixed.


Did the dealer do that or did you have a Gilligan moment?
[/quote]

Dealer.


----------



## willingtonpaul

sorry that the dealer scuffed your baby, that's a drag...

when you get your setup back and take her to the scales, post your weights, and then can you post some pictures of your hitch setup ? let's see how much flex you have in the bars, and see where the hitch head is and clearances are between the bars, cams and trailer A frame....

i think i might have said this before, but 5 links in the number of links that you need to have in service. so you adjust the hitch around the 5 links. laying the head down a few notches and going to 800lb bars could be the ticket for you, as that will put more flex in the bars but actually soften the hitch connection. that might get you the weight transfer you need while at the same time creating a bigger flex in the bars for more aggressive seating in the cams but not stiffening the hitch connection too much. if you try this with your 1200lb bars, you will get the weight transfer you want but will create too stiff a connection at the hitch.

did you check out my pictures that i have posted before ????

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157626634203508/


----------



## LaydBack

willingtonpaul said:


> sorry that the dealer scuffed your baby, that's a drag...
> 
> when you get your setup back and take her to the scales, post your weights, and then can you post some pictures of your hitch setup ? let's see how much flex you have in the bars, and see where the hitch head is and clearances are between the bars, cams and trailer A frame....
> 
> i think i might have said this before, but 5 links in the number of links that you need to have in service. so you adjust the hitch around the 5 links. laying the head down a few notches and going to 800lb bars could be the ticket for you, as that will put more flex in the bars but actually soften the hitch connection. that might get you the weight transfer you need while at the same time creating a bigger flex in the bars for more aggressive seating in the cams but not stiffening the hitch connection too much. if you try this with your 1200lb bars, you will get the weight transfer you want but will create too stiff a connection at the hitch.
> 
> did you check out my pictures that i have posted before ????
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157626634203508/


I can tell you right now that I don't have that flex.


----------



## willingtonpaul

srwsr said:


> sorry that the dealer scuffed your baby, that's a drag...
> 
> when you get your setup back and take her to the scales, post your weights, and then can you post some pictures of your hitch setup ? let's see how much flex you have in the bars, and see where the hitch head is and clearances are between the bars, cams and trailer A frame....
> 
> i think i might have said this before, but 5 links in the number of links that you need to have in service. so you adjust the hitch around the 5 links. laying the head down a few notches and going to 800lb bars could be the ticket for you, as that will put more flex in the bars but actually soften the hitch connection. that might get you the weight transfer you need while at the same time creating a bigger flex in the bars for more aggressive seating in the cams but not stiffening the hitch connection too much. if you try this with your 1200lb bars, you will get the weight transfer you want but will create too stiff a connection at the hitch.
> 
> did you check out my pictures that i have posted before ????
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157626634203508/


I can tell you right now that I don't have that flex.
[/quote]

you gotta have that flex; set up your hitch to have that much flex, and check the ride. if it is way too stiff (which i think it will be) then go to lighter bars. if you don't want to buy them, i have an 800lb trunnion head set that i can loan you. you pay the shipping and i'll send 'em to 'ya. i want to keep them in case i change my setup down the road, so you can buy your own set if they work / improve your setup and send them back to me...


----------



## LaydBack

willingtonpaul said:


> sorry that the dealer scuffed your baby, that's a drag...
> 
> when you get your setup back and take her to the scales, post your weights, and then can you post some pictures of your hitch setup ? let's see how much flex you have in the bars, and see where the hitch head is and clearances are between the bars, cams and trailer A frame....
> 
> i think i might have said this before, but 5 links in the number of links that you need to have in service. so you adjust the hitch around the 5 links. laying the head down a few notches and going to 800lb bars could be the ticket for you, as that will put more flex in the bars but actually soften the hitch connection. that might get you the weight transfer you need while at the same time creating a bigger flex in the bars for more aggressive seating in the cams but not stiffening the hitch connection too much. if you try this with your 1200lb bars, you will get the weight transfer you want but will create too stiff a connection at the hitch.
> 
> did you check out my pictures that i have posted before ????
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157626634203508/


I can tell you right now that I don't have that flex.
[/quote]

you gotta have that flex; set up your hitch to have that much flex, and check the ride. if it is way too stiff (which i think it will be) then go to lighter bars. if you don't want to buy them, i have an 800lb trunnion head set that i can loan you. you pay the shipping and i'll send 'em to 'ya. i want to keep them in case i change my setup down the road, so you can buy your own set if they work / improve your setup and send them back to me...
[/quote]

That's awful nice of you. It's great to see that there's still such people. I'm gonna call the dealer to see how long they think it'll be before they have what they need to get me fixed up. If it's gonna be a while, I'm gonna pick my camper up. I just checked with a couple of local places to see about getting weighed. It seems you have to keep getting on and off of the scale for your readings. Somewhere on here or the other site, I saw where the weights that I'd want were described. I'll find it so I don't tie up the scale and pay for unnecessary readings.


----------



## willingtonpaul

happy to help a fellow camper get dialed in; i did not get my setup dialed in without help from others. the bars are collecting dust in my workshop, so don't rush on my part.......









the CAT scales near me charge $9 (IIRC, it might be $10, but for some reason $9 sticks in my mind. it certainly is not more than $10, for sure) for the first weigh and then $1 for each one after that in the same day. i have done it where i go weigh my setup. get then i off the scales, go pay and get the weigh ticket. then, i jump back on the scales. i undo the weight distribution and tell them to weigh me, letting them know it is a re-weigh (and giving them the ticket number of my first weigh). then, i unhook the trailer, pull the truck off the scales, and as for a third weigh as a re-weigh. this third weigh gives you the trailer axles on one weigh pad and the tongue jack on another weigh pad (the one that was weighing the rear axle of the truck.

total cost is $11 (or maybe $12). total time is about 30 mins. the biggest problem is getting the wife and kids to sit in the truck and not complain for said 30 mins.......









now you know all the weights you need. i have three "configurations" that i camp with, and i have these weights for all 3....


----------



## LaydBack

Update:

Picked it up Friday, as they are awaiting parts. Had their guy do some adjustments to the hitch head and the snap up bar brackets. This did keep the front from raising. I noticed that the cam brackets are bolted to the frame at different distances from the ball. That obviously left the cam arms adjusted differently, one being extended as far as it could be. These adjustments did give me some visible flex in the 1200 lb. bars. My plan was to fill the fresh tank, grab the DW and kids, fill the gas tank and get weighed. I figured first pass would be entire setup. Second pass thru scale would be entire setup, but disconnected. I was then gonna pull off and drain the fresh tank and then make a 3rd pass to weigh entire setup, followed by a fourth pass that would be entire setup disconnected. This method should give me all axles and tongue weights, loaded and unloaded.

Unfortunately, Saturday when I went to fill the fresh water tank (new tank installed while it was at the dealer), there was a leak at the drain valve. Apparently for some reason, the valve had been disassembled and in reassembly was misassembled. I actually think that there was an attempt to use silicone, but maybe they just never put water in it to verify that it didn't leak. After I figured it out and reassembled it correctly, the damage could not be reversed, therefore the leak couldn't be stopped.......plan A aborted. Guess I'll be back at the dealer tomorrow to see about a replacement valve. This might just be time to do a mod to get the valve in a more accessible location, or possibly leave it in the same location and just make a long handle to operate it. I'm debating as to whether I want to make the low point extend by moving the valve farther away. Seems any water that gets past where the valve is currently would just be more water that would never get pumped out.

I want to say that I could feel a noticeable difference in the way it pulled, but, I really don't think I put 20 miles in. I pointed the difference in the cam arm brackets out to the hitching guy, and he said that he could weld the current holes shut and grind and paint the frame. I really think I could get by with just doing this to the one that is fully extended. My plan is to redo it all myself, but definitely make them do anything that I need them to do, as their parts guy has reminded me that I had the $1000 setup (his view of what I paid for the Reese installed , not necessarily my view after all of the negotiationg). I am hoping to accomplish it this week, heatwave permitting.


----------



## CamperAndy

The location of the fixed cam bracket on the frame is not critical as long as the cam itself sits in the middle of the saddle on the end of the bar when the trailer is straight. I would not have them weld on the frame if it were me.


----------



## LaydBack

CamperAndy said:


> The location of the fixed cam bracket on the frame is not critical as long as the cam itself sits in the middle of the saddle on the end of the bar when the trailer is straight. I would not have them weld on the frame if it were me.


Thanks CamperAndy, I appreciate your input, and respect your knowledge. I agree that the cam bracket location isn't all that critical, as the instructions allow for you to move it. I'm curious to know your reservations about welding the holes shut, or just welding on the trailer in general. Or, are you just skeptical about the dealer doing it.


----------



## CamperAndy

srwsr said:


> I'm curious to know your reservations about welding the holes shut, or just welding on the trailer in general. Or, are you just skeptical about the dealer doing it.


All of the above. If the welding was done incorrectly and it caused a stress point on the tongue it could fail with little or no notice.

If you were to move the bracket I would just fill the hole by putting the bolt back in it if it was exposed. Then putting new bolts in the new holes but my first choice would be to leave it be.


----------



## willingtonpaul

CamperAndy said:


> The location of the fixed cam bracket on the frame is not critical as long as the cam itself sits in the middle of the saddle on the end of the bar when the trailer is straight. I would not have them weld on the frame if it were me.


well, i would disagree with this is for future adjustability options. the directions to install the brackets on the frame put the adjustability of the CAM roughly in the middle of the range of bar lengths. this allows for bars of different capacities to be installed. 1200lb bars are longer than 1000lb bars, 1000lb bars are longer than 800lb bars, etc. so if the brackets are not in the middle of the range, going to shorter or longer bars could be out of the range of the adjustability. in addition, you do want the CAM arms to be at a low angle to the A frame to force the loaded bars to be as parallel to the A frame as possible. having the bars parallel to the A frame is important, and too high an angle off the A frame will not allow this to happen properly.

also, i agree on welding the frame bolt holes closed. not a good idea to heat stress the A frame with welding. just put the bolts back in with flat and lock washers, with some silicone to seal off the holes and keep it waterproof. then hit it with some black rustoleum spraypaint and call it a day....


----------



## CamperAndy

Paul - in the instructions for the dual cam there is no difference on the location of the bracket on the A frame for the different weight bars. I agree it is best to have the adjustment centered to account for some variations but as you can see from the attached instructions there is more or less a free hand on the actual location of the bracket. Is there an ideal location, most likely there is but it is not critical. The only critical part is that the cam is centered in the saddle of the arm when the arms are loaded.


----------



## LaydBack

Good points, both of you. I will try to get some pics posted. I measured the placement of both brackets yesterday, from respective spots on the A-frame. Measuring, they only seem to be off by a half inch or so (seems like it was more than that when I initially noticed it), but I don't see why the one cam arm is fully extended. I was in a hurry when I did, so I'll take more time to observe what could be adding up to the cam arm discrepancy. I also noticed that the cam arm brackets are installed in the optional/alternate orientation, not the preferred orientation shown in the instructions.


----------



## CamperAndy

srwsr said:


> Good points, both of you. I will try to get some pics posted. I measured the placement of both brackets yesterday, from respective spots on the A-frame. Measuring, they only seem to be off by a half inch or so (seems like it was more than that when I initially noticed it), but I don't see why the one cam arm is fully extended. I was in a hurry when I did, so I'll take more time to observe what could be adding up to the cam arm discrepancy. I also noticed that the cam arm brackets are installed in the optional/alternate orientation, not the preferred orientation shown in the instructions.


Most likely due to the fact they did not want to move the VIN plate. If placed in the preferred direction the Vin plate is in the way on the drivers side of the A frame.


----------



## willingtonpaul

CamperAndy said:


> Paul - in the instructions for the dual cam there is no difference on the location of the bracket on the A frame for the different weight bars. I agree it is best to have the adjustment centered to account for some variations but as you can see from the attached instructions there is more or less a free hand on the actual location of the bracket. Is there an ideal location, most likely there is but it is not critical. The only critical part is that the cam is centered in the saddle of the arm when the arms are loaded.


i think you might have mis-interpreted my post. i did not say that you mount the brackets in different positions based on which bars you are using. i think i said that the directions have you mount the brackets in the center of the the adjustability range so that you have maximum flexibility. and the directions do just that: they use 18" as the reference point for mounting the brackets, irrespective of the bars used. there really is no "free hand" in mounting the brackets. it's 18", period. if the tech is too lazy to re-position the VIN tag (and you are right on that one, many are) then it ain't gonna be set up to optimal. period. now you are in "alternate position" territory, and that is not where you want to be, IMHO. so if you are substantially longer or shorter than said 18" reference point, you limit your adjustability range. that is the information that i meant to voice with my post; sorry if i was not clear. i think the reese directions are very clear, and they have changed them quite a bit over the years to try to make them clearer. i will see if i can dig up a set from 20 years ago and scan them to post; they left alot of room for error back then......


----------



## CamperAndy

Did you guys know that there are instruction out there that actually allow you to mount the cam frame plate aft of the chains? This allowance was to avoid all contact of the spring arms with the cam adjusters among other things.

Anyway as long as the cam is centered in the saddle detente when the springs are loaded it is fine.


----------



## LaydBack

[sup]I'm grasping both schools of thought, as far as cam in center of detent, and cam arm being setup in center of adjustability range. I'm having a harder time fathoming how 1/2" difference in placement of the frame brackets leads to one cam arm being maxxed out on it's adjustabiltity. We had temperatures of 90 at 10 p.m. here today, so I figured it best I not go out this evening while temperatures were hotter, and create a frustrating situation. I've attached pics of the brackets being measured from the same respective spots on each side of the A-frame. As you can see, the cam arm adjustments are drastically different.




































[/sup]


----------



## LaydBack

View attachment 1891
I also took some closeup pics of the damage, since I brought it home.
View attachment 1882
View attachment 1883
View attachment 1884
View attachment 1885
View attachment 1886
View attachment 1887
View attachment 1888
View attachment 1888
View attachment 1889
View attachment 1890


----------



## CamperAndy

srwsr said:


> I'm grasping both schools of thought, as far as cam in center of detent, and cam arm being setup in center of adjustability range. I'm having a harder time fathoming how 1/2" difference in placement of the frame brackets leads to one cam arm being maxxed out on it's adjustabiltity. We had temperatures of 90 at 10 p.m. here today, so I figured it best I not go out this evening while temperatures were hotter, and create a frustrating situation. I've attached pics of the brackets being measured from the same respective spots on each side of the A-frame. As you can see, the cam arm adjustments are drastically different.


The 18" should be measured from the center of the ball to the pivot point. Looks like they are close (but not real close) had they put the plates on the correct sides. How does the cam location look when the spring bars are in place?


----------



## LaydBack

Okay, so finally got a chance to hook up and get to the scales today. A bit of a fiasco, but got it done......well sorta. Got to the first place....new concrete at the scales....scales closed. Go to second place, go in, explain to lady what I'm trying to do, ask if it's a busy day for their scales.....she replies "actually Sunday's their slower day"......headed to scale..... big rig pulls on...weighs...done....my turn. I pull on, get truck and trailer staged the way I want it, go back to unhitch....here's what I see.....notice the snap up bracket








In case you didn't notice it, here's a different angle.







......and a closeup.








After I got home.









That definitely happened today in under 15 miles, probably barely 10. Hmmm....what could cause that.....not tightened enough????......too much tension on the bar?????................????????????

I think OH SHITE!!!!! Immediate panic mode.....ready to scrap the whole deal and try to make it home......gather myself a bit, and decide, oh well I'm here, gotta get home regardless, may as well do what I came to do. Get back out of truck, get ready to weigh......big rig driver approaches....he's behind me wanting to weigh and boogie on......okay, no problem, I'll pull off, let you do your thing......I get things together, back at scrap it mode, pull off the scale and go assess my situation. At this point I'm like, okay....worse case, no sway control and partial weigt distribution, and maybe 10 miles from home. Oh well, I'll go on home. I see another place (less busy looking) across the road, and decide to go there, tell the lady what I want to do.....no problem, confidence restored.....get on scale unhitch....first weigh done. As I'm rehitching, big rig pulls in, ready to weigh....I go to hurry up mode, tell the lady I'll get it hitched, pull off, and then pull back around. I realize as I'm hitching up, that once I'm hitched, it'll only take her a second to weigh me, then I can pull off, dump the fresh tank, and then come back. So I get weighed, and go dump the fresh.

At this point, I've come to grips with the fact that I've definitely got to get a new snap up bracket, and should be able to make the trip home safely....just take it easy. I also realize, as I look at the weights, that the way they were done, does not clearly give me tongue weight....and I've dumped enough water to not try to redo it for using a full fresh tank. Oh well.....no biggie, I'll have all the other weights. I weighed with DW, 2 DSs, and myself with a few items in truck bed pushed forward, to simulate a couple of full coolers. Trailer was loaded as it always is. So here's what I got.

First weigh- full fresh tank. Steer axle 4600 lbs. Drive axle 3380 lbs. Trailer axle 9080 lbs. Gross weight 17060 lbs. This was with the truck and trailer disconnected, truck on first two pads of scale.
Second weigh- full fresh tank. Steer axle 4420 lbs. Drive axle 4740 lbs. Trailer axle 7880 lbs. Gross weight 17040 lbs. This was with the truck and trailer connected, truck still on first two pads. 
Third weigh- empty fresh tank. Steer axle 4500 lbs. Drive axle 4400 lbs. Trailer axle 7720 lbs. Gross weight 16620 lbs. Truck and trailer just like in second weigh.
Fourth weigh- empty fresh tank. Steer axle 7960 lbs. Drive axle 1080 lbs. Trailer axle 7560 lbs. Gross weight 16600 lbs. Entire truck on first pad of scale (steer axle pad), tongue jack on second pad of scale (drive axle pad), and trailer axles on trailer pad.

What I've gathered from this:
Trailer weighs about 9080 lbs. with full fresh tank (first weigh, trailer pad should have been just the trailer with full fresh tank).
The truck with us in it is 7960 lbs. (fourth weigh, entire truck was on steer axle pad).
Trailer tongue weight with an empty fresh tank is 1080 lbs (fourth weigh, tongue jack was on drive axle pad). 
Trailer tongue weight with a full fresh tank is +/- 1420 lbs. (Added the difference in the drive axle weights of weighs 2 & 3, to drive axle weight (tongue weight) in weigh 4. I'm sure all of it probably doesn't transfer to the tongue)

It seems that the weight is obviously not being distributed to the front axle, if you pay attention to what the steer axle weight is in the first weigh is. Every other scenario took weight off of the front when the trailer was connected. Granted, this was all done with the busted snap up bracket, and I'll have to do some of this over when I get the new bracket.

Here's a pic of it hooked up on the side where the snap up bracket is fine. You can see that there is a slight bow in the trunnion bar.









Here's a picture of the busted side again.









.....and here's a picture of the head to give an idea of the amount of tilt. You can probably get an idea from the other pics as well.


----------



## CamperAndy

Wow, that bent bracket looks familiar! Way over stressed, that said your set up actually looks workable to me. I did not run through all the weights close as I am on my phone but if you are at 1400 pounds tongue weigh then you are going to have a hard time moving the weight forward. That said if you are within 100 pounds on the steer axle then you should be okay.


----------



## willingtonpaul

well, there can be drama at the scales ! glad you got it done, and excellent photos.

having the snap up bracket do what it did to you is a classic sign of being overhitched. that being said, was the bolt not correctly torqued the first time or not, who knows. the force has to go somewhere, and that one of the weakest if not indeed the weakest point in the system.

on that bad side, do you see that the adjustment for the cam position (the threaded rod with the two nuts and lock washers) is all the way out ? that top down photo shows it well where you illustrated the failure of the snap up bracket. the other side does not look to be in the same position, it looks to be further in (but you did not take that top down photo as the bracket did not fail on that side). by out i mean putting the cam farther away from the coupler and further in closer to the coupler. lay your bars on a workbench side by side and see if they are the same length (they can be different, believe it or not). do they have the same weight rating ? double check that. the cams should be in the same position on each side if the hitch was set up with the trailer exactly parallel with the truck. if the bars are slightly different lengths, than the cams will be in slightly different positions. but your positions look quite a bit different to my eye, so either the trailer was not parallel with the truck when the hitch was set up, or the cam adjustment on that side also loosened up over time and crept back. given that there are two nuts, one on each side of the threaded rod, with lock washers, that is unlikely, but not impossible. now, all that being said, if it was set up improperly at the beginning, with the trailer not perfectly parallel to the truck, and the cam on that side of the trailer was positioned farther back to try to compensate and seat the bar cup properly in the cam, when the trailer is parallel to the truck, that does three things. first, it makes the cup not seat properly in the cam, compromising sway control. second, as the cam is farther down the length of the bar, it loads the bar more on that side, and that is the heavy side of the trailer, the side of the rig where the dual slides are. third, it creates a constant corrective force on that side, as the design of the hitch increases torsion on that side trying to get the cam to seat in the cup. it wants to walk the trailer over towards the drivers side to get that cup seated in the cam. all those forces have to go somewhere, and they went into that weak point, that one bolt holding the snap up bracket to the frame. to my eye, the difference in these positions looks to be around an inch, which is a huge difference. i know you talked about that in your previous post so forgive me if i am being redundant, but it is important.

also, on the good side where the snap up bracket did not fail, you do not have enough flex. that is with that bar taking more load, too. those bars are for sure too stiff, IMHO. again, IMHO 800lb bars would be correct for you. the hitch head already looks laid down all the way or pretty close to all the way, is it not ?

unfortunately that hitch was not installed right from jump street, IMHO. that on top of being overhitched has you all messed up with hitch parts failing. again, i am making assumptions but i think i am pretty close or dead on correct. and having one side of the cam adjustment maxed out and the other side closer to the middle is not good. it is more that just having the cams seated in the bar cups regardless of adjustment positioning. the adjustment positioning needs to be similar or the same on each side.

the pictures with the tape measure on your previous post do not load well on my computer, they blow up to such a large size that i can't tell what is going on. but these second ones are perfect. the measurements for the positioning of the cam brackets are within a 1/2" on both sides, right ? i can't tell but i read that in your post. but that should not cause that big a difference in the cam adjustment position.


----------



## CamperAndy

This is mine after I drove over a significant level change from a parking lot to the street.


----------



## willingtonpaul

CamperAndy said:


> This is mine after I drove over a significant level change from a parking lot to the street.


what rating bars are you running, andy ?


----------



## LaydBack

CamperAndy said:


> Wow, that bent bracket looks familiar! Way over stressed, that said your set up actually looks workable to me. I did not run through all the weights close as I am on my phone but if you are at 1400 pounds tongue weigh then you are going to have a hard time moving the weight forward. That said if you are within 100 pounds on the steer axle then you should be okay.


I would have to think 1400 lbs might be a bit high. When I get the new bracket, I'll have to reweigh with both bars functioning. I'm really wondering if that bracket was tight enough. I don't remember seeing a torque spec on the bracket bolts. Anybody know what it should be, or if you should crank on them pretty good?


----------



## LaydBack

willingtonpaul said:


> well, there can be drama at the scales ! glad you got it done, and excellent photos.
> 
> having the snap up bracket do what it did to you is a classic sign of being overhitched. that being said, was the bolt not correctly torqued the first time or not, who knows. the force has to go somewhere, and that one of the weakest if not indeed the weakest point in the system.
> 
> on that bad side, do you see that the adjustment for the cam position (the threaded rod with the two nuts and lock washers) is all the way out ? that top down photo shows it well where you illustrated the failure of the snap up bracket. the other side does not look to be in the same position, it looks to be further in (but you did not take that top down photo as the bracket did not fail on that side). by out i mean putting the cam farther away from the coupler and further in closer to the coupler. lay your bars on a workbench side by side and see if they are the same length (they can be different, believe it or not). do they have the same weight rating ? double check that. the cams should be in the same position on each side if the hitch was set up with the trailer exactly parallel with the truck. if the bars are slightly different lengths, than the cams will be in slightly different positions. but your positions look quite a bit different to my eye, so either the trailer was not parallel with the truck when the hitch was set up, or the cam adjustment on that side also loosened up over time and crept back. given that there are two nuts, one on each side of the threaded rod, with lock washers, that is unlikely, but not impossible. now, all that being said, if it was set up improperly at the beginning, with the trailer not perfectly parallel to the truck, and the cam on that side of the trailer was positioned farther back to try to compensate and seat the bar cup properly in the cam, when the trailer is parallel to the truck, that does three things. first, it makes the cup not seat properly in the cam, compromising sway control. second, as the cam is farther down the length of the bar, it loads the bar more on that side, and that is the heavy side of the trailer, the side of the rig where the dual slides are. third, it creates a constant corrective force on that side, as the design of the hitch increases torsion on that side trying to get the cam to seat in the cup. it wants to walk the trailer over towards the drivers side to get that cup seated in the cam. all those forces have to go somewhere, and they went into that weak point, that one bolt holding the snap up bracket to the frame. to my eye, the difference in these positions looks to be around an inch, which is a huge difference. i know you talked about that in your previous post so forgive me if i am being redundant, but it is important.
> 
> also, on the good side where the snap up bracket did not fail, you do not have enough flex. that is with that bar taking more load, too. those bars are for sure too stiff, IMHO. again, IMHO 800lb bars would be correct for you. the hitch head already looks laid down all the way or pretty close to all the way, is it not ?
> 
> unfortunately that hitch was not installed right from jump street, IMHO. that on top of being overhitched has you all messed up with hitch parts failing. again, i am making assumptions but i think i am pretty close or dead on correct. and having one side of the cam adjustment maxed out and the other side closer to the middle is not good. it is more that just having the cams seated in the bar cups regardless of adjustment positioning. the adjustment positioning needs to be similar or the same on each side.
> 
> the pictures with the tape measure on your previous post do not load well on my computer, they blow up to such a large size that i can't tell what is going on. but these second ones are perfect. the measurements for the positioning of the cam brackets are within a 1/2" on both sides, right ? i can't tell but i read that in your post. but that should not cause that big a difference in the cam adjustment position.


I don't know why you are having trouble with some of the pics, they were all taken with my phone. The tilt on the head is nowhere near max, if I recall correctly. I agree that the 1/2" difference in the cam arm brackets does not add up to the difference in adjustment. Figuring that out is my main focus, and I'll compare the bar lengths. I found a pair of brackets for $60 shipped, which is what most places want for just 1, so they're on order. I'll double, triple check detent position on cam, when I install it, and make sure truck and trailer are in a straight line, but that all looked fine. I gather that what you are saying in terms of the bars, is that the amount of tilt and stress it would take to get more flex out of the 1200 lb. set is so great, that it is going to really stress the snap up bracket, as well as really roughen the ride. I'm trying to grasp how stressing the 800 lb. bars is going to get me the weight transfer I need with the tongue weight I have, and if I NEED the fresh water weight on the tongue. Excuse the ignorance, just processing maybe too much at one time. This is obviously the reason you offered to let me try yours, as seeing is believing, whether you understand it or not. I'm just trying to fully understand. I think you had me there, and now somehow I'm a bit off the path. Again thanks to you, and everyone else.


----------



## willingtonpaul

given that the weight on your front axle was greater than the rear axle with the fresh water tank empty, and that was with one bar not doing all the work it should have been, you definitely have bars that are too heavy. you don't need that much weight transfer. also, i agree that you might not NEED the fresh tank full for tongue weight if it is really around 1000lbs. with the fresh tank empty. 12% of 8500lbs is 1020lbs, and with the fresh full of about 500lbs of water, there is the 9000lbs you are at. 15% of 9000 is 1350lbs. so those numbers about check out not counting gear in the front storage compartment. even if you run the tank full and indeed have the 1400lbs. on the ball, you don't need to transfer that much to the nose of the truck. you have the suspension in the rear to carry that load. you need transfer less and get more sway control with more flex in the bars...


----------



## CamperAndy

willingtonpaul said:


> This is mine after I drove over a significant level change from a parking lot to the street.


what rating bars are you running, andy ?
[/quote]

1200 pound bars. based on the 12 to 13 hundred that I have on the tongue my 31rqs I believe those are correct. The bars do not have a lot of different sizes and I see the 1200 as the most correct for my set up.


----------



## LaydBack

CamperAndy said:


> This is mine after I drove over a significant level change from a parking lot to the street.


what rating bars are you running, andy ?
[/quote]

1200 pound bars. based on the 12 to 13 hundred that I have on the tongue my 31rqs I believe those are correct. The bars do not have a lot of different sizes and I see the 1200 as the most correct for my set up.
[/quote]

I am grateful for your and willingtonpaul's continued input. I am considering the 800 lb. bars, as it seems I may have some different characteristics. I am trying to figure out whether the damage to my snap up bracket was due to not being tight enough and the stress of the 1200 lb. bars. I believe that when I was at the dealer and "we" adjusted it, "I" may have been the "last" to touch that particular bracket, as at that point, their hitch guy was relying on me, and I don't remember really cranking on it to get it tight, maybe more so just firmly snugging it. If that is a variable that could have caused the damage, then I must certainly offer it for consideration. I have a pair of brackets ordered. I found a site that has a pair for $60 shipped (streetsideauto.com). I don't want to start a debate, as I respect the both of your views and know that there are some differences, but would like to ask, based on my weights, what's your position. I'm not holding you or anyone else accountable, as ultimately the decision is mine. Thanks.


----------



## willingtonpaul

go to the 800lb bars and re-calibrate the hitch. you won't look back.

the bracket may have been loose or may not have been. regardless, that is a symptom, not the underlying problem.


----------



## CamperAndy

One other note on the bent bracket. Inspect the cam and chain plate, to bend the bracket you may have also bent the other parts.

On the cause, retrace your entire path from when you connected the bracket to when you found the damage. Did you enter any area that had a significantly lower level then the trailer? I bet you will remember you made a sharp turn while going from a high area to a low area.


----------



## LaydBack

CamperAndy said:


> One other note on the bent bracket. Inspect the cam and chain plate, to bend the bracket you may have also bent the other parts.
> 
> On the cause, retrace your entire path from when you connected the bracket to when you found the damage. Did you enter any area that had a significantly lower level then the trailer? I bet you will remember you made a sharp turn while going from a high area to a low area.


I'm thinking that there was a sharp right turn at the Flying J. Would a left or right turn be the culprit? I was thinking it was the tension on the bars that caused it. Also, do you have a lot of tilt on your head, as I notice you are running 1200 lb. bars with the 1 ton suspension? I have room to tilt it more. How are you getting flex out of your bars? How's the ride?


----------



## LaydBack

willingtonpaul said:


> given that the weight on your front axle was greater than the rear axle with the fresh water tank empty, and that was with one bar not doing all the work it should have been, you definitely have bars that are too heavy. you don't need that much weight transfer. also, i agree that you might not NEED the fresh tank full for tongue weight if it is really around 1000lbs. with the fresh tank empty. 12% of 8500lbs is 1020lbs, and with the fresh full of about 500lbs of water, there is the 9000lbs you are at. 15% of 9000 is 1350lbs. so those numbers about check out not counting gear in the front storage compartment. even if you run the tank full and indeed have the 1400lbs. on the ball, you don't need to transfer that much to the nose of the truck. you have the suspension in the rear to carry that load. you need transfer less and get more sway control with more flex in the bars...


Does it not matter that in all the situations where the trailer was connected, the weight on the front axle was less than what it is when the truck was weighed without the trailer attached? Also, can you answer the same questions I asked in the post above, as far as your setup. I'll look at your pics again, but I'd imagine you don't have a lot of tilt on your head. Thanks.


----------



## willingtonpaul

srwsr said:


> given that the weight on your front axle was greater than the rear axle with the fresh water tank empty, and that was with one bar not doing all the work it should have been, you definitely have bars that are too heavy. you don't need that much weight transfer. also, i agree that you might not NEED the fresh tank full for tongue weight if it is really around 1000lbs. with the fresh tank empty. 12% of 8500lbs is 1020lbs, and with the fresh full of about 500lbs of water, there is the 9000lbs you are at. 15% of 9000 is 1350lbs. so those numbers about check out not counting gear in the front storage compartment. even if you run the tank full and indeed have the 1400lbs. on the ball, you don't need to transfer that much to the nose of the truck. you have the suspension in the rear to carry that load. you need transfer less and get more sway control with more flex in the bars...


Does it not matter that in all the situations where the trailer was connected, the weight on the front axle was less than what it is when the truck was weighed without the trailer attached? Also, can you answer the same questions I asked in the post above, as far as your setup. I'll look at your pics again, but I'd imagine you don't have a lot of tilt on your head. Thanks.
[/quote]

i have a good bit of tilt, IIRC it is 4 or 5 grooves. i do this to really get the flex on the bars. remember, you want to load the bars to transfer the weight, but you need to get good flex (1.5" to 2" minimum at the center of the bar) to engage the anti sway features properly. with the heavier bars, the more you load them to get the flex (keeping 5 links in service and laying the head down) you just stiffen the hitch connection too much and transfer more weight than you have to. you transfer so much weight to the front axle and raise the rear axle and take so much load off the suspension back there that the ride gets super rough and stiff. too much weight on the front makes the ride worse, too. ever drive a truck with a snowplow on the front and nothing in the bed ? the ride stinks; it rides worse than an empty truck. the lighter bars allow you to really flex the bars and not make too stiff of a hitch connection. you still transfer plenty of weight, believe me. that over stiff hitch connection is what gives a horrible ride, poor anti sway features (the self centering feature of the hitch is not working at it's best), and too much road shock to the trailer, which overall is the weak link. the trailer gets beat up and / or hitch parts get beat up / fail.

if going over uneven ground caused that kind of failure to the snap up bracket on andy's hitch, WADR, those bars are waaaaayyyy too stiff for his one ton suspension. coming out of a parking lot ? that must have been one heck of a drop off or dip. he must have dragged the back of the trailer, or bottomed out the drop bar of the hitch on the pavement, right ? if it was that bad of a drop, i think he would have found another way and not gone out that way. no, the bar should fail first IMHO. if you get in such a bad spot and the whole setup gets torqued up like crazy, the bar should overflex and bend. it would take an INCREDIBLE amount of force to snap a bar, but let the bar bend out of shape permanently. that is a far better catastrophic failure than the bracket coming off or bending. you can still go down the road and function that way, and run it for awhile safely to get to a place to get it fixed. the bracket fries the whole setup, and you can drop the whole bar into the road. and those brackets bending could bend the A frame for sure if the stresses were enough. my worst case in the same situation would be overstressing a bar, which IMHO is a much safer and better place to be.

think about it: his truck and mine are rated to pull a 5'ev with 3k or a little more of pin weight. that's a beefy suspension man. that suspension is already capable enough that he barely even needs weight distribution on his setup, just like me. i am running around 1200-1300lbs. of ball weight on my setup on any given trip. the payload capacity on my truck is about 4000lbs. taking into account that the ball weight is aft of the bumper and multiplied, i still don't NEED weight transfer to the front axle. not even close; my truck is built to do what i am doing. ever see a contractor with a 20 or 25t. equipment trailer behind his truck with a bobcat or landscape tractor on it ? they run a ring and pintle setup nearly always. no sway control there, no weight distribution. why ? low center of gravity and small wind profile, that is why. we have a trailer that is a giant sail with a higher center of gravity, hence the need for sway control. so then i also throw another 1500 to 1800 lbs. in the bed of the truck plus my family, and enough of that gets attributed to the front axle just fine. plus, i have an extra 1000lbs. or so up front with the PSD. so weight transfer is not what i need. what i do need is to SOLIDIFY the hitch connection and have SWAY CONTROL. that is what the 600lb bars do. now your truck's suspension is not as beefy as mine or andy's, but it is way beefier than a 1/2 ton. you need to move some weight, but not like a 1/2 ton. the 1/2 ton HAS to re-distribute the weight to not overload the rear axle and to provide adequate steering control by getting the nose of the truck back down and the headlights out of the treetops. 800lb. bars are perfect for you, IMHO. your payload has to be around 3000lb or so; you want some weight back there. again, IMHO, if andy went to 600lb bars and re-set his hitch, the ride would blow his mind. but if he is happy and feels comfortable with his setup, then that is all that matters. i feel that his trailer is taking it on the chin with that setup and if he owns it long enough, signs of this added stress will manifest itself if it has not already.

certainly the weight on the front axle will be less with the trailer hooked up and loaded vs. without the trailer being hooked up. but your truck has a good payload capacity; it is built to carry load. you want more weight on the drive axle when hooked up. the goal is not to equalize the load between the front and rear axles. the goal is to have the truck level with respect to itself and the trailer level with respect to itself. this can and will occur with different weights on the front and drive axles. you have a bigger truck for that very reason.


----------



## LaydBack

Pics of my bars. They both have stickers that say they are 1200 lbs. Also Paul, it looks like I have about 3 grooves of tilt, if I looked correctly. If you look at the pics I posted earlier, you can almost count them on the pic that's showing the head.
View attachment 1909


----------



## willingtonpaul

did the bottom bar come from the side of the setup with the fully extended cam adjuster and overstressed snap up bracket ? that bar looks to be a god bit longer, and the trunnion head looks to be shaped differently. i gotta go check out mine and take a picture. that could be the reason the cam adjuster is in a different position....

also, did i post this link ? i did not take the time to go through the thread..

http://www.inlandrv.com/articles/hitch-torsion-bar-story.html


----------



## LaydBack

willingtonpaul said:


> did the bottom bar come from the side of the setup with the fully extended cam adjuster and overstressed snap up bracket ? that bar looks to be a god bit longer, and the trunnion head looks to be shaped differently. i gotta go check out mine and take a picture. that could be the reason the cam adjuster is in a different position....
> 
> also, did i post this link ? i did not take the time to go through the thread..
> 
> http://www.inlandrv.com/articles/hitch-torsion-bar-story.html


Unfortunately, I didn't see this until I'd left for work this morning. I'm not sure how I have the bars laid in the pics. I seem to remember having stacked the bars before, to see how they compared, and don't remember there being a difference in lengths. I can double check when I get in this evening, but I think it looks that way because the trunnion heads are angled and I have them lined up at the pins.

Yes you did post that link. That's one of the ones I re-read yesterday.


----------



## LaydBack

Here's my bars, got the 800 lb. bars yesterday. My original bars are identical to each other and have 54946 stamped in the trunnions. They also matched the 1200 lb. bars that etrailer had on display. Hope to play with it this evening.
New bars in middle
View attachment 1912

Original bars are the same
View attachment 1913

Both sets match each other
View attachment 1914


Posted from phone, looks like pics not working.


----------



## willingtonpaul

srwsr said:


> Here's my bars, got the 800 lb. bars yesterday. My original bars are identical to each other and have 54946 stamped in the trunnions. They also matched the 1200 lb. bars that etrailer had on display. Hope to play with it this evening.
> New bars in middle
> View attachment 1912
> 
> Original bars are the same
> View attachment 1913
> 
> Both sets match each other
> View attachment 1914
> 
> 
> Posted from phone, looks like pics not working.


i saw the pics over on dogandtrailer.com.
i guess i was seeing things...


----------



## LaydBack

Okay, was gonna go find a flat spot and get to work. Decided I would hook up with the 1200 lb. bars to get there. I remeasured the cam bracket pivot points, and they were within a 1/4" of each other, so,I went ahead and drew the fully extended cam in some first, and headed down to the church lot to do a few S-turns and see how they were seated. Amazingly, they were both seated in the detents fine. It was starting to rain, so rather than unhitching and going to work, I decided to cruise over to the Flying J and trace my tracks from last weekend. Arriving there, I noticed that the entry did have some steepness to it. I figured I'd span across it pretty good before I turned in, and sure enough, I heard a pop. The new snap up bracket bent again. Good I ordered a pair. So, now I know definitively that it is the right turn into the flying J that is bending the left snap up bracket. Odd thing is I had been to this Flying J at least twice before last week and never had a problem. That was of course, before any adjustments were made to the faulty install. There is also a dent in the frame where the bolt in the bracket was tightend down, so I will probably have to come up with a thick metal shim to put on the back side now. I'm wondering if that might be what made it slip this time, or if it's just the stress of the system manifesting itself on the weak point. The 1200 lb. bars are under a good amount of stress, I'm pretty sure, with 5 links in service. The flex (very little) in them is the same as I showed in the earlier pics, and the head is tilted back 3 grooves. I'm gonna go have a bite and pop a few flat tops, let the rain pass, and give it another go later or tomorrow. It looks like I can leave the cam brackets where they are located and get the adjustments to a point where they aren't as extremely different as they were. So, does this confirm that the 1200 lb. bars are indeed too stiff, or should I have maybe gone to 6 links in service????? Would this still happen with the 800 lb. bars????


----------



## LaydBack

Got around to tearing into it today. I put the new bracket on and went to a level spot. I unhitched and leveled the camper. The top of tongue measurement was 25". I measured the ball on the truck, and it was at 24", and that was at the highest setting with the shank turned down. I disassembled the setup and reversed the shank, setting the ball at a little over 26", as the next hole down would have been closer to 25". I did the steps to measure the spring bar height off of the ground and tilted the head accordingly, which gave me 4 notches showing. I adjusted the cams, and now they are fairly even, definitely not as far out of adjustment as initially, and sitting nicely in the detents. I took the wheel well measurements and got 38 3/4" on the front, and 41 on the rear. I hooked up to the truck and loaded the bars. It took considerable effort to snap the chains up, but not a straining effort or anything. Now I'm measuring 38 1/2" on the front wheel well, and 40 3/4" on the rear wheel well. Now the tongue sets at 26", and the level shows just slightly running up hill. I seen that the instructions say that a loaded ball height that is higher than the unloaded height is not good. They say to reduce the take-up on spring bar chains????????? Does that mean more links or less.....I'm thinking it means go from 5 to 6 links. Driving it, for the short distance I did, felt fine, though I do believe I noticed the stiffness that Paul has mentioned. I didn't get on the highway or anything, but hopefully tomorrow I can get a chance to play with using 6 links. I think that tilting the head more is risky with the 1200 lb. bars. I've attached pics of the changes.


----------



## willingtonpaul

srwsr said:


> Got around to tearing into it today. I put the new bracket on and went to a level spot. I unhitched and leveled the camper. The top of tongue measurement was 25". I measured the ball on the truck, and it was at 24", and that was at the highest setting with the shank turned down. I disassembled the setup and reversed the shank, setting the ball at a little over 26", as the next hole down would have been closer to 25". I did the steps to measure the spring bar height off of the ground and tilted the head accordingly, which gave me 4 notches showing. I adjusted the cams, and now they are fairly even, definitely not as far out of adjustment as initially, and sitting nicely in the detents. I took the wheel well measurements and got 38 3/4" on the front, and 41 on the rear. I hooked up to the truck and loaded the bars. It took considerable effort to snap the chains up, but not a straining effort or anything. Now I'm measuring 38 1/2" on the front wheel well, and 40 3/4" on the rear wheel well. Now the tongue sets at 26", and the level shows just slightly running up hill. I seen that the instructions say that a loaded ball height that is higher than the unloaded height is not good. They say to reduce the take-up on spring bar chains????????? Does that mean more links or less.....I'm thinking it means go from 5 to 6 links. Driving it, for the short distance I did, felt fine, though I do believe I noticed the stiffness that Paul has mentioned. I didn't get on the highway or anything, but hopefully tomorrow I can get a chance to play with using 6 links. I think that tilting the head more is risky with the 1200 lb. bars. I've attached pics of the changes.
> 
> View attachment 1937
> View attachment 1938
> View attachment 1939
> View attachment 1940
> View attachment 1941


i posted a reply on d&t


----------



## LaydBack

willingtonpaul said:


> Got around to tearing into it today. I put the new bracket on and went to a level spot. I unhitched and leveled the camper. The top of tongue measurement was 25". I measured the ball on the truck, and it was at 24", and that was at the highest setting with the shank turned down. I disassembled the setup and reversed the shank, setting the ball at a little over 26", as the next hole down would have been closer to 25". I did the steps to measure the spring bar height off of the ground and tilted the head accordingly, which gave me 4 notches showing. I adjusted the cams, and now they are fairly even, definitely not as far out of adjustment as initially, and sitting nicely in the detents. I took the wheel well measurements and got 38 3/4" on the front, and 41 on the rear. I hooked up to the truck and loaded the bars. It took considerable effort to snap the chains up, but not a straining effort or anything. Now I'm measuring 38 1/2" on the front wheel well, and 40 3/4" on the rear wheel well. Now the tongue sets at 26", and the level shows just slightly running up hill. I seen that the instructions say that a loaded ball height that is higher than the unloaded height is not good. They say to reduce the take-up on spring bar chains????????? Does that mean more links or less.....I'm thinking it means go from 5 to 6 links. Driving it, for the short distance I did, felt fine, though I do believe I noticed the stiffness that Paul has mentioned. I didn't get on the highway or anything, but hopefully tomorrow I can get a chance to play with using 6 links. I think that tilting the head more is risky with the 1200 lb. bars. I've attached pics of the changes.
> 
> View attachment 1937
> View attachment 1938
> View attachment 1939
> View attachment 1940
> View attachment 1941


i posted a reply on d&t
[/quote]

Thanks Paul. Enjoy Cape Cod and safe travelling. I figure Andy's camping also, hadn't heard anything from him either. I'm debating on trying to go somewhere close for the weekend.


----------



## duggy

Just going to chime in on different weight ratings on bars. While you can adjust 800 lb bars, or 1200 lb bars, to transfer the proper amount of weight, the stiffer bars (1200 lb) are going to behave worse when the tv and trailer go over uneven ground. If the truck starts up a rise, such as a driveway entrance, it is like tightening up the chains by a couple links. That will put a lot more stress on the hitch parts, with stiff bars compared to lighter bars. Conversely, when the truck heads down a drop, it is like removing a couple links on the chains. The stiff bars won't be transferring any weight, while the lighter bars would still have some tension on them. This is why lighter bars can still distribute the weight properly, but give a nicer ride, and not stress parts as much.


----------



## LaydBack

Okay, took everyone's advice, and went back to the drawing board. I hitched up, went down to the church lot, and measured where I was at.....38 5/8" to front wheel well, 39 3/4" to rear wheel well. I unhitched and remeasured.....38 5/8" to front wheel well, 41 1/8" to rear wheel well. I took measurements from the ground to the bottom of the I-beam as I leveled the trailer and measured to the top of the tongue and got 23", which was considerably and very visibly less than the ball height I came up with Tuesday. I took the head off, and turned the shank back the way it originally was. I lowered it 1 hole from where it was initially, and tilted it back 3 notches. I hitched up again, and snapped the bars in, and raised the jack to put the weight on the truck. My wheel well measurement were 38 5/8" on the front, and 39 7/8" on the rear, and the tongue was back at 23". I measured the I-beams and the front was about 1/4" lower than the rear. The only other thing I did was add a 3/8" thick piece of metal, for a shim over the dent in the frame, on the backside of the A-frame where I've been having the problem with the snap up bracket. This is still all with the 1200 lb. bars. For some reason, I'm hellbent to get the setup right with them, otherwise I don't think I'd ever be able to make a fair comparison to the 800 lb. bars. I decided to take it for a spin, and got my nerves up to try...............................................................................








SUCCESS AT LAST..............NO BUSTED SNAP UP BRACKET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately, there weren't many big rig encounters over the short journey, but the few I had were uneventful. I even followe close behind a couple for a while. Nevertheless, here's some pics of the way it's setup now, and me jacking it pretty hard on the church lot.
Shim plate:


























It's just held there by the snap up bracket bolt........any thoughts???????

Truck & Trailer:


----------



## LaydBack

Hitch:






















































All these pics are in my dogandtrailer.com gallery with descriptions. I took the hitch ones while I had it knifed pretty hard in each direction. Hope me cutting and pasting my post from over there doesn't offend anyone, it was just so lengthy, I didn't want to invest all the time to redo it.


----------



## LaydBack

Well, I'm not claiming to be an expert, but experience being a good teacher, I believe that I finally have the system set up right with the 1200 lb. bars. Strangely enough, I had to ruin another bracket to find out that there are truly some turns that you just can't make, especially where the elevation of truck and trailer gets too skewed. This time, it was the opposite bracket while making a left turn that would be the exact same as the right turns that broke the other two. I was basically making a left turn from the left lane, as you would make a right turn from the right lane. The incline was about the same as at the Flying J, and I got the same result. I can see how the snap up bracket is the weak point of the system, as it would take something going terribly wrong to break the other components. What I've learned is that there are some turns that I've either got to be able to hook out wide, or be able to take it from a different approach, like the opposite direction that would change a near side turn to a far side turn. Nevertheless, other than that, which I will chalk up as operator error, the sway control seemed to have been working. I actually wasn't affected by big rigs as I drove with the bad bracket to get the new bracket. Unfortunately, I really got sidetracked, and didn't really drive it as much/far as I wanted to. I'll try to get out into some heavier truck traffic to see if I can really firm up that it's functioning properly and see how it really feels, before I switch to the 800 lb. bars. I think that'll really help me get to know the ins and outs of the system.


----------



## LaydBack

I'm gonna re-read the thread here and over on D&T to confirm that the 800 lb. bars would flex more in this particular type of turning situation, and more than likely eliminate this problem, or if this type of elevation difference is going to be a problem regardless. I saw the thread where a guy actually sheared the actual cam arm somehow. Hate I couldn't offer him any help. Nevertheless, it's been a learning experience. I could definitely feel the difference in the way the hole driving experience felt. I must say, it's the best it's been. I'd almost say, "you couldn't even tell the trailer was back there". I think it'd be more accurate to say that I felt like the truck was truly in control of the trailer. The connection just felt totally different, in a more comforting way. I'm trying to really focus on the feel of it, so that I can evaluate whether I like the 1200 lb. bars or the 800 lb. bars best. It's obvious that I must pay closer attention to setting up my turns, not that I wasn't, but I figured that I had things adjusted for the situation, after finally having success at the Flying J. I don't feel that I navigated this last turn the same way, and thus the result. Hindsight being 20/20, I should've done a little backing and swung out , as I really wasn't anticipating turning where I did.

Another thing I didn't mention is that I ended up putting another 3/8" metal shim on the other side. I would suggest this to anyone, to avoid the dent in the frame, as it's obvious that the weak point is the bracket, and once it goes, the angle that the bolt will be at is gonna wreak havoc on the frame. As of now, the shims are just held in place by the bolt in the bracket, and haven't appeared to move. I don't know that it would take much more than a few tacks with the welder, vs . running a full bead.

I'd also like to thank all of you that have helped me, and I will continue to keep this thread updated as I journey on in my learning.


----------



## LaydBack

I decided to contact Reese regarding the 3 bent snap up brackets. I expressed that I thought the setup I bought with the 1200 lb. bars, should have come with the heavy duty snap up brackets. Had I known they existed, I would have pursued them after the first mishap. To my surprise, within an hour or two, I had a reply to my email, and an offer to send me a pair of the heavy duty brackets. WOW!!! How bout that for customer service. Someone suggested I bolt the brackets to the frame, and said Reese suggests that for tongue weights over 1000-1100 lbs. Has anyone else done this?


----------



## LaydBack

FINALLY!!!!! After all my anxiety to go camping after working on the hitch issues, I had to put it off for 2 weekends in a row, due to working OT at work, and then putting in lots of hours to work on the house we just helped our 21 year old son buy. We finally got to get it out for the holiday weekend, and it pulled magnificently. The DW was totally impressed. We loaded up and took off with a full fresh tank and had 0 problems going down. I decided to travel with the fresh tank empty on the return trip, and still had no issues with passing big rigs. I did however feel the crosswinds on the return trip, and they were definitely having some influence. I'm sure that part of it was intensified by me holding at 60+ mph. I figure with it getting to be fall, I'll definitely switch the setup to the 800 lb. bars, for wind conditions. All in all, there was nothing horrific and no bent brackets. Once again, thanks to all of you.


----------



## willingtonpaul

srwsr said:


> FINALLY!!!!! After all my anxiety to go camping after working on the hitch issues, I had to put it off for 2 weekends in a row, due to working OT at work, and then putting in lots of hours to work on the house we just helped our 21 year old son buy. We finally got to get it out for the holiday weekend, and it pulled magnificently. The DW was totally impressed. We loaded up and took off with a full fresh tank and had 0 problems going down. I decided to travel with the fresh tank empty on the return trip, and still had no issues with passing big rigs. I did however feel the crosswinds on the return trip, and they were definitely having some influence. I'm sure that part of it was intensified by me holding at 60+ mph. I figure with it getting to be fall, I'll definitely switch the setup to the 600 lb. bars, for wind conditions. All in all, there was nothing horrific and no bent brackets. Once again, thanks to all of you.


i am happy that you had a great trip and tow. did you indeed switch to the 800lb bars and re-calibrate ? last i remember reading, you will still working on properly dialing in your 1200lb. bars......


----------



## LaydBack

willingtonpaul said:


> FINALLY!!!!! After all my anxiety to go camping after working on the hitch issues, I had to put it off for 2 weekends in a row, due to working OT at work, and then putting in lots of hours to work on the house we just helped our 21 year old son buy. We finally got to get it out for the holiday weekend, and it pulled magnificently. The DW was totally impressed. We loaded up and took off with a full fresh tank and had 0 problems going down. I decided to travel with the fresh tank empty on the return trip, and still had no issues with passing big rigs. I did however feel the crosswinds on the return trip, and they were definitely having some influence. I'm sure that part of it was intensified by me holding at 60+ mph. I figure with it getting to be fall, I'll definitely switch the setup to the 600 lb. bars, for wind conditions. All in all, there was nothing horrific and no bent brackets. Once again, thanks to all of you.


i am happy that you had a great trip and tow. did you indeed switch to the 800lb bars and re-calibrate ? last i remember reading, you will still working on properly dialing in your 1200lb. bars......
[/quote]

Thanks Paul. I have not switched, will be doing so soon. I'm thinking that it will help with the crosswinds.


----------



## CamperAndy

srwsr said:


> I have not switched, will be doing so soon. I'm thinking that it will help with the crosswinds.


How will it help?


----------



## LaydBack

CamperAndy said:


> I have not switched, will be doing so soon. I'm thinking that it will help with the crosswinds.


How will it help?
[/quote]
See post 42.


----------



## CamperAndy

srwsr said:


> I have not switched, will be doing so soon. I'm thinking that it will help with the crosswinds.


How will it help?
[/quote]
See post 42.
[/quote]

Sorry but I guess I just don't agree with paul for most of his position on what should be used for weight distribution bars for your combination but even he did not recommend 600 pound bars. Maybe you just had a typo.


----------



## LaydBack

CamperAndy said:


> I have not switched, will be doing so soon. I'm thinking that it will help with the crosswinds.


How will it help?
[/quote]
See post 42.
[/quote]

Sorry but I guess I just don't agree with paul for most of his position on what should be used for weight distribution bars for your combination but even he did not recommend 600 pound bars. Maybe you just had a typo.
[/quote]
Yes Andy, it was a typo. I corrected it to 800 lb. bars.


----------

