# 98 Expedition / Tow Package / **lift**



## jnicita (Apr 6, 2009)

Hello people, I have been having some problems with "Ford" sites tossing numbers to me, but no one with really any actual experience. So I thought I would stop by here.

I have a 1998 5.4L Eddie Bauer 4x4 (4x2/4 - AWD) with the tow package on it, and a P3 TBrake controller. I've read that the stock tow package with 3.5X gearing on a 98 expy gains one a 8000lb tow capacity. I've had others tell me its 6500# (stock with tow package).

My problem is that when I bought it, I was 10 years younger and I felt that stupid desire to lift it, but not your average lift, 100% custom work, almost went with a dana straight axle, but I digress. All in all, its got about 10-12" of combined body and suspension work done on it, and rolls on 38" tires. Under normal circumstances, I understand what those tires do to gearing, but then I can inform you that I spent another 4,000 getting 5.02 (I believe) gearing installed in the truck. As it drives right now, the speedometer is near perfect without any modifications done to the speedometer. When I paid to have the gearing done, my statement was that I wanted to accommodate so as the truck gearing was exactly like it was delivered stock, and I let them come up with the ratio (which is why I am unsure on actual ratio, it might have been 4.96's, but I want to say 5.02's, just one of the things I forgot over the last 10 years). Ohh ya, I paid a premium for extra (14.5") large vented rotors and extended brake calipers (4 piston) on all 4 wheels as well. (I've had to BRAKE on the freeway before, and the anti-lock worked, but I'll admit a large mass in motion wants to continue in motion...... that's the physics). When it comes time for new tires, I don't think my wife or my desire to use this as a TV will put 38x16's on it again, dropping down to 35's or 33's just will give me a better tow ratio.

Anyways, with that said, I would suspect that stopping larger heavier wheels would be my first issue to consider in reducing my factory tow specification, but like I said, braking was upgraded, plus the add on of the P3, that will help. Anyways, I forgot to mention what outback I was looking at, I'm looking at a used 2004 Outback (dealer claims 22' box, with the towing tongue he claims 25.5, and 28' open, but I think he's a little off since the dual slide is a 25dss, all literature I read says 25' 10" and I don't know if that's front box or tip of tongue to rear box dealers spec when giving length).

What you all think? I currently pull a 1981 23' Layton by Skyline Homes, I don't have any specs anymore, but I gotta figure that old beast has to weigh near what a newer 25 weighs. I pull the 23 with no issues, (to me at least). With load hitch, spring bars, and a stabilizer (I added these because I could, it towed fine to me without them, adding just made it better). The 23' also has no brakes on it (it didn't have them by the time I got the unit). I've caught multiple posts on Outbackers.com talking about towing 25RSS with Dodge Durango and a newer Toyota Land Cruiser, I figure my Expy is more TV than the two of those), but again, I'm hear reaching out for data.

Anyways, first impressions? Am I close? Or am I safely on the safe side here? I'm going in feeling I got this covered, and that I'm NOT on the verge of dangerous, but more in the "responsible" choice of trailer size. 27' is the MAX size that my trailer parking can handle and allow for a couple of feet of emergency clearance of the kids riding bicycles in the yard...

Thanks in advance..

-john


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## jnicita (Apr 6, 2009)

I got some info on my old trailer from skyline, it weighs #4010, so not as heavy as I thought, but close. anyways. I might just be stuck selling it to the next high school kid and picking up a same age/quality suburban (The wife really wants a SUV when camping, half our deal is to park the trailer and then 4x4 or take the kids all around the area's we camp) that is designed to pull more, I REALLY dont want to do this, but I might have too. I think I will change the tires to 33's and see if that makes it bareable. Right now we camp 1 or 2 times a year, so its not in use ALOT. The TV will be used only that 1-2 times a year as well.

No one with any input?

Thanks


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## egregg57 (Feb 13, 2006)

jnicita said:


> I got some info on my old trailer from skyline, it weighs #4010, so not as heavy as I thought, but close. anyways. I might just be stuck selling it to the next high school kid and picking up a same age/quality suburban (The wife really wants a SUV when camping, half our deal is to park the trailer and then 4x4 or take the kids all around the area's we camp) that is designed to pull more, I REALLY dont want to do this, but I might have too. I think I will change the tires to 33's and see if that makes it bareable. Right now we camp 1 or 2 times a year, so its not in use ALOT. The TV will be used only that 1-2 times a year as well.
> 
> No one with any input?
> 
> Thanks


 We had a 2000 Expy Eddie Bauer and towed two large trailers with it. but with the mods you have done to yours I certainly can't comment! Good luck!

Eric


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## BigBadBrain (Aug 26, 2004)

John,
You have such a unique situation that I suspect the lack of response is simply because no one knows how to address your issue. It's WAY beyond me that's certain! Oddly, when I read your post I got the feeling that you would probably be better suited to answer the problem better than most - you clearly understand the lift better than most and have all of the specifics.

About the only thing I would recommend is to get the weight ratings off the door sticker and then calculate the added weight of the lift kit, etc. and the over sized tires and subtract the difference over stock from the weight rating. I suspect a 4x4 Expy will have a rating lower than the 8000 you mentioned (my guess only based on my own 2003 which has 7300) and I suspect the added hardware of the lift kit might take away 300-500 pounds? Again, just a guess.

As to the center of gravity, roll, impact on trailer, acceleration and hill towing, your guess is better than mine.

Good luck. Maybe some others will chime in.

BBB


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

BBB said it best. I wouldn't know where to start with a custom job like that. For engine temps, if you kept the speedo accurate, you should be ok there. My biggest fear would be handling. Second would be stopping, third would be if the aftermarket bits were designed to tow with (probably not an issue since offroading is likely tougher on it). I'm wondering if members of a Ford Trucks forum or an offroad forum would be able to help.








You could try here: Ford Trucks - Expedition


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## asplitsecond (Feb 5, 2008)

Don't forget, if you change tire size that much you will need to re-gear to stay at factory specs.


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## jnicita (Apr 6, 2009)

asplitsecond said:


> Don't forget, if you change tire size that much you will need to re-gear to stay at factory specs.


Actually, I've seen lots of people recommend to raise the gearing, I figured that since I made it back to 3:53 or whatever it was, that dropping to 33 or 31's would just give me the ratio that so many others suggest you get if you can, I havent done the math, but I'm figuring its in the 4:40's or so. Of course I would do the math to be sure, but the extra gearing cant hurt on a vehicle that is 100% a TV now.


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## jnicita (Apr 6, 2009)

BTW, to those following. I went and picked up the 25RSS Wed evening. I picked it up in the foothills of Los Angeles and towed it back in the rain to RSD/Jamul (San Diego). I have a super chip, so I changed the tuning from 87 octane (low perf) to perf-Towing, and rolled home through the flats at 2700RPM, 60MPH, overdrive. When I got to the hills at Temecula, I decided to turn the OD off, and pulled the trailer up/down/up/down/up/down at around 55-60MPH in and out of 2/3 between 2700 - 3500 RPM, No white knuckles, but I think I am going to drop the tire size for sure. Braking in the rain was no issue, pulling up the highest grade, I felt a little dogged out, although my passenger kept telling me its in my head, with a trailer I should be driving 55-60 anyway, and at 3500RPM in 2nd I was gaining speed from 55 to 60, so chill he kept saying, not gonna win any races.

Side to side was non existent. I did feel a little push-pull front to back when I hit some of the crappy road under construction, but I also had only the 750# spring bars, I have 1000, and 1500's and will give those a try.

Keep in mind, black was reading at only 1/2, fresh was at full, and brown was on E, Propane was filled before leaving the foothills. I feel comfortable, but the thought is in the back of my mind to drop tire size, it can only help is what everyone keeps telling me, and once that thought is in my head, well, its there.

I've pulled a 36 ft boat with a new Dodge Dualie, and I know what it feels like when you dont feel what your towing, THIS I COULD feel, but I didn't feel like I was over doing it, until the idiots got on my a.. doing 75 and zipping in and out all around me, but I don't think any TV will take care of that.

Do I want to try bigger, NO, do I think I can make it through the 2 trips to Yosemite over the next 2 years, well, yes...

Will keep this thread updated when I get the new skins (Gonna make sure the dates are good, thank you to the person posting about the lame old tires at some dealers) and update what difference that made. I also already located all my original body bolts and OEM mounts, so I am almost prepared to ditch 4" of body lift when I downsize from the 39's to 33's, will for sure if I goto 31's.

Thanks again..


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## TurkeyBranch (Mar 12, 2009)

Sounds to me like you pretty much got it all under control.
Very unique set up that is for sure.

Good luck and let us know how it all works out in the end, I for one am very interested in the final set up you go with.

Ed


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## hazmat456 (Jul 26, 2007)

I don't think that you should drop your tire size that much. your gearing is fine. I wouldn't go lower than 36 with those gears or you will be looking at 3500rpm at 60mph. I would suggest lowering a inch or two and bigger sway bars on the truck. Check all of your suspension bushings and links,upgrading or replacing make a huge difference.


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## johnp (Mar 15, 2004)

One thing I was thinking about was what size drop are you using on the hitch and what is that rated for? Between tires and lift your receiver must be at chest height. Your gearing should cancel out the tire size. What load rating do the tires have? Must be an awesome looking setup. Post pics.

John


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## malibutay (Sep 5, 2007)

Do you have a pic of this rig? love to see it!


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

I cant see why your Expy couldnt handle this.. Braking will be no problem cause you have better brakes than my dually. Yea you would even make a Tundra guy jealous.. lol What brand are your brakes, Brembo or something.

Your gearing sounds like a bit better than stock. I would do the 33-35 tires if it doesnt make it look goofy.. You would pick up more braking power too.

I am wondering how much drop your hitch shank has also. A longer hitch shank means more stress on the hitch too. So inspect that hitch reguarly for stress cracks. Personally if I had to use a deep drop shank I would go class 5 hitch..

Remember a trailer will tow better having the trailer nose down than nose up..

If you have any height issues with the two rigs, remember you can do an axle flip on the Outback.. That will help a bunch.

Then at that point you could go to 15 or 16 inch tires to gain some more lift back there..

If your going off road an axle flip and some 16 inch LT tires will allow some pretty major trail bashing with Outback in tow.. Out here in Colorado I see guys hauling 30 foot trailers and 5ers up some pretty rough roads pretty often if they are set up like I mentioned above.

I would have answered had I seen your post.. I just missed it.. I would have said go for it too.. The suspension and braking system is much better than factory so in my eyes you'd be just fine.

Congrats and enjoy the new tag a long.. Pics for us too!

Carey


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## jnicita (Apr 6, 2009)

I'm just putting the body back onto the frame now. That's 4" lower now. The sad part is the dual shock hoops (with 2 bitchin FOX shocks per loop) that were mounted between the frame and mounts added to the top of the upper control arms had to eat the 4" that the body dropped. I went and bought a new camera this morning as well (all those who wanted pics). I have lots of pictures somewhere around here (I just changed from a PC to a MAC, and didn't take the time to move my data yet). I'll run out this afternoon at take some pictures while its still got 38" tires on it.

I wish I had Brembo brakes, they would have required more mods than the Force 10 I went with, its got Force 10 Extreme 4-Piston Aluminum calipers with 14.5" rotors, I wish I could find these locally again, when it comes time for rotor replacement, I'm lucky that its only a TV, because I'm not going to just drive down to Kragen and get replacement rotors..









Anyone want to recommend a generator setup, I was almost ready to build and weld a platform to the rear bumper of my other trailer, but now thats what my bed pulls out over, so I don't think so. Man, the bicycle storage opening into the lower bunk sure is a NICE design of this 25RSS, something protecting the floor and any generator I could think off, including my 700KW loud as ass construction site unit...









Someone was asking me what Drop shank I was using, and to be honest with you all, I really don't know, all the "other" parts are hidden hitch, and yes, I WAS towing UPHILL, but the 4" drop out of the body has "almost" leveled it all out (with the drop obviously extended ALL the way down).

I'll get some pics up today, and it doesn't look as extreme with the missing 4"'s, 8"s still looks good









-John

Hey Cary, when my wife heard me telling her I could flip the axles on the outback, she almost lost it... ahahaha, never even thought about that, if the truck is too high, rather than lowering the truck, raise the tow vehicle??? man, what a concept. And I bet SOOOO easy... does it flip as easy as it sounds? I'm headed outside to look it in a few hours. Got some work to do...


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## jnicita (Apr 6, 2009)

Weather isn't too nic for a San Diego day, but anyways, I tossed some pictures up, a few people were asking. I'm sorry that I don't currently have any with the original 12", but you can all look and imagine a extra 4" of body lift on these..









I added them to a gallery here.

-> http://www.outbackers.com/forums/index.php...&album=1411

Will keep this thread updated on what I think about the new skins, be it 31's, 33's, or 35's, Im leaning to 33's right now. Im trying to look up the info on the true gearing from old receipts, and then find somewhere to allow me to generate a new drive ratio with tire size change.

Anyone want to help with my bad memory of the current gears being 502's? What the 35's and 33's will produce?

Thanks

-John


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

33 will give 5.78. and 35 will give 5.45 ratio.

5.78 is pushing things. But as long as you dont tow much over 65mph it'd prolly work.. Give you more power too.

You'd be taching prolly around 3000 rpms at 65 with 33's with overdrive on. Without overdrive you'd be prolly 33-3400 rpms at 65.. Not gonna hurt the 5.4 engine much doing that. But youd hear and feel the engine spinning that fast.

I would just keep the 38's or drop to no less than 35 or 36 and do an axle flip on the trailer.. Flipping the axles isnt too big of a deal. Would give you about 4 inches of rise.

This website has lots of 4x4 calculators you can goof around with.

click

Carey


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## jnicita (Apr 6, 2009)

There is one advantage to having a full shop, and some skill, that is that you can do your own work.

I just finished bolting the rear end back into the expedition, the front is not so easy, but by Sunday I'll have that done as well. I had a front and rear set of 426:1 gears, so I figured I would install them. That and a drop to 33's is what I have in mind. will update, Like I said, The wife already reminded me of L Bobet, and said something about her when I mentioned lifting the trailer..







Opps....

-john


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## Frank's n beans (Aug 20, 2007)

Pictures look good. I will toss in some before and after pictures myself.


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## Joonbee (Jan 18, 2008)

Good call getting rid of the body lift. All that space between the body and frame can create a week point. Especially if you are in an emergency situation or god forbid an accident. Rig looks nice for sure and the rest of the setup definately sounds solid. Obviously as a result of your exceptional research.









Jim


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