# Tough Reminder



## Collinsfam_WY

This weekend, I made a quick trip up to Alto, NM (up the mountain from Ruidoso, NM). DW and the girls had already gone up with grandparents on Wednesday and I was going to meet them. I wasn't taking the Outback - that is next weekend for a 1000mi. round trip to my wifes grandparents' old dairy farm. I passed into New Mexico from West Texas and a couple of hours later, I had passed through Roswell, NM. As you begin to go up the mountains to Ruidoso, the state has designated the road a "safety zone" due to the numerous wrecks over the years. The new road is 4 lanes, undivided and very nice compared to what it used to be. It makes the drive much easier than it was. The danger is still there though and so are the signs marking that part of the highway a "safety zone".

As you enter the safety zone, you have a short 6% climb followed by a long 6% descent ending in a right hand sweeping turn. The SuperDuty cruised effortlessly up the short ascent and as I crossed over the top, I saw cars coming towards me - some were flashing their lights. I took this to mean that the highway patrol was shooting radar or laser which didn't bother me - I wasn't speeding and generally speaking, am not inclined to do so in a 7500lb pickup.

As I neared the bottom of the descent, a hill passed on my right opening my view into the right hand sweeper and I saw what the cars had been flashing their lights about. There was an RV wreck and it was all over the road. The State Police had both directions down to 1 lane and was slowing the traffic to a near stop. I thought to reach for my camera then thought the better of it (not going to post that kind of thing anyways). After some thought, As an RV'er, it was clear to me what had happened that caused the awful wreck.

People were gathered all over the road and nobody was moving around except for the highway patrol who were just, at that point, directing traffic. Nobody was near the TV nor the TT. Ambulances had yet to arrive but fire and police vehicles were all around. Somber faces were on the highway patrolmen as they waved me past. I glanced to the left and my gut tightened as I saw the approximately 35' Salem TT on its side with the TV facing the wrong way and upside down. I clearly saw the hitch - it is familiar to me, not going to say who the mfg. was - it was however, mostly torn apart. I was surprised to see how it had come apart. I could not make out what the TV was exactly - I believe it was an Expedition but it could have been an Explorer. The cab was crushed. The front of the roof was the worst - it was crushed all the way down to the steering wheel / dash.

I immediately thought of 3 years ago and what DW and I were about to do and almost did before we found Outbackers.com. People here changed our minds about that 28RSDS we were looking at (were looking at that or an identical floorplan/size KZ Frontier). Disappointed, we downsized our RV dreams. We ended up with a 23RS towed by our old '02 F150. I am ever so grateful that folks here told me in rather direct terms that what were about to do was unwise and that we should consider more TV or less TT. I don't recall who all it was in that thread that told me those things but seeing that wreck on Friday was a reminder that I owe those experienced RV'ers a heartfelt "thank you". They were willing to tell us that what the dealers were feeding us was baloney when applied to towing out on the real road and not the dealer lot when looking at "what can tow what" on paper. I am grateful that this website and the immense experience of the members is here to help and hope that I can be a part of continuing that tradition.

-CC


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## TwoElkhounds

How aweful. I hope the worst is not true.

Unfortunately, this situation is way too common. I just returned this evening from our three week road trip to Yellowstone, nearly 6000 miles round trip. At times, I could not believe some of the combos I saw. Some examples include:

1) A Volkswagon Taurug towing a Outback Sydney 28BHKS at the campground in South Dakota. They had a family of at least four, bikes, grills, all the works included. Everything was brand new. I am sure they just dumped tens of thousands of dollars into the equipment. The TV looked like a toy in front of the trailer. I seriosuly contemplated talking to the guy about his combo, but did not.

2) Going through the pass at Mamouth in Yellowstone, yet another Taureg pulling an Outback through the pass. Looked like a 30+ footer. May have been the same one as in the item above, but honestly I do not think so. Not a pretty road, very steep with lots of tight curves with few guard rails. Suicide with a 30 foot trailer behind a small, light weight, short wheel base TV like a Taureg.

3) A Honda Ridgeline towing a 30+ travel trailer in Montana. Forget the wheelbase, he was way over his tow rating.

4) A F150 pulling a huge travel trailer, maybe 40+ feet. One of those trailers you put on site and leave.

5) I cannot even count the number of Ford Explorers/Expeditions, Dodge Durangos, Chevy Trailblazers and the like pulling 30+ foot trailers. Out on the road, you see several of these examples per hour.

Not sure what you can do about any of it other than hope and pray for the families in the TV's.

DAN


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## Justman

Unsafe combos... I think most unsafe combos are due to ignorance. Notice I didn't say stupidity, because there is a difference. I don't know of anyone that would knowingly put the lives of their family in danger by towing with an unsafe combo. However, once you know and keep driving it, that's when we go from ignorance to....well...you get the picture.

Honestly, when I moved from our Yukon XL to the Silverado, I did it because of primarily one thing; the safety of my family. I didn't want to get in a wreck and have one of them get hurt knowing I could have prevented it. Even though I was (barely) within my limits towing the 25RSS, I WANTED the peace of mind that I got when I hooked the 3/4 ton Silverado up to the trailer. Even though the Silverado rides like a truck, I wouldn't trade it for anything...except for maybe a brand new one!


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## JerseyGirl86

What a terrible story. I agree with you that the information others give on here is positively LIFESAVING! I think my first question posed on here was about our Durango pulling our 28BHS safely....of course NO! It's so sad, because camping is something we all do to be with our family, enjoy our time away together, make memories....it's supposed to be a happy time. For it to end in tragedy is unfair. It's also avoidable, with a situation such as this one.

You can replace your TV so easily, but you can never replace the people inside who love you. Our lives are worth so much more.


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## BoaterDan

What a wonderful testimony Curtis. I know it's easy to be put off by people telling you you're about to do, or are doing, something unsafe, but we just don't want to see these stories.


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## Sean Woodruff

Justman said:


> Unsafe combos... I think most unsafe combos are due to ignorance. Notice I didn't say stupidity, because there is a difference. I don't know of anyone that would knowingly put the lives of their family in danger by towing with an unsafe combo. However, once you know and keep driving it, that's when we go from ignorance to....well...you get the picture.


EXCELLENT point. I've spent the last 12+ years of my life talking to people, and attempting to educate them, about towing. Once you've expressed what you know, it's all you can do. Some just don't believe and some just don't want to believe. There is a difference.


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## Tyvekcat

TwoElkhounds said:


> How aweful. I hope the worst is not true.
> 
> Unfortunately, this situation is way too common. I just returned this evening from our three week road trip to Yellowstone, nearly 6000 miles round trip. At times, I could not believe some of the combos I saw. Some examples include:
> 
> 1) A Volkswagon Taurug towing a Outback Sydney 28BHKS at the campground in South Dakota. They had a family of at least four, bikes, grills, all the works included. Everything was brand new. I am sure they just dumped tens of thousands of dollars into the equipment. The TV looked like a toy in front of the trailer. I seriosuly contemplated talking to the guy about his combo, but did not.
> 
> Not sure what you can do about any of it other than hope and pray for the families in the TV's.
> 
> DAN


 Surely the RV dealer would have advised against using such a short wheelbase vehicle for towing a long trailer?

Not that I am condoning towing such a long trailer with a Touareg. But back a few years ago I had read 4-Wheeler magazine and they did an article about the diesel Touareg. I understand the 2004 -06 models with the V-10 Turbo Diesel had some good torque, 550ft lbs.Thats a horse in any book.

But the new 2009 models just have a V6 Diesel and 400 Ft-LBS torque. Its rated at towing maximum 7700 lbs. Is There a Sydney anywhere near that light? If he had an older Touareg, he had the motor. just not the wheelbase.

The Honda ridgeline? That was a uni-body Deathwish.

Stay safe out there!


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## Sean Woodruff

Tyvekcat said:


> Surely the RV dealer would have advised against using such a short wheelbase vehicle for towing a long trailer?


A short wheel base isn't a problem if the pivot point is in the correct place. Take a look at the next semi-truck wheel base and the length it is towing.


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## TwoElkhounds

Tyvekcat said:


> How aweful. I hope the worst is not true.
> 
> Unfortunately, this situation is way too common. I just returned this evening from our three week road trip to Yellowstone, nearly 6000 miles round trip. At times, I could not believe some of the combos I saw. Some examples include:
> 
> 1) A Volkswagon Taurug towing a Outback Sydney 28BHKS at the campground in South Dakota. They had a family of at least four, bikes, grills, all the works included. Everything was brand new. I am sure they just dumped tens of thousands of dollars into the equipment. The TV looked like a toy in front of the trailer. I seriosuly contemplated talking to the guy about his combo, but did not.
> 
> Not sure what you can do about any of it other than hope and pray for the families in the TV's.
> 
> DAN


 Surely the RV dealer would have advised against using such a short wheelbase vehicle for towing a long trailer?

Not that I am condoning towing such a long trailer with a Touareg. But back a few years ago I had read 4-Wheeler magazine and they did an article about the diesel Touareg. I understand the 2004 -06 models with the V-10 Turbo Diesel had some good torque, 550ft lbs.Thats a horse in any book.

But the new 2009 models just have a V6 Diesel and 400 Ft-LBS torque. Its rated at towing maximum 7700 lbs. Is There a Sydney anywhere near that light? If he had an older Touareg, he had the motor. just not the wheelbase.

The Honda ridgeline? That was a uni-body Deathwish.

Stay safe out there!
[/quote]

I immediately thought the same thing. It was not a diesel, it was a V8, the placard on the back of the car clearly indicated this.

Even if it was a diesel, there is no way I would risk my family towing such a big trailer with such a small wheelbase, even if the weights were within limits. It is not a good situation to have your trailer weigh 2X the weight of your TV and be over 2X as long. The physics just do not add up (the engineer in me). The trailer will eventually impose its will on the TV, probably at the worse possible time.

Every time I want to upgrade my trailer, DW always tells me the same thing, "just because you can, doesn't mean you should".









DAN


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## Nathan

Sean Woodruff said:


> Surely the RV dealer would have advised against using such a short wheelbase vehicle for towing a long trailer?


A short wheel base isn't a problem if the pivot point is in the correct place. Take a look at the next semi-truck wheel base and the length it is towing.
[/quote]

I parked next to a lot of Semi's during my trip. Their trailers are 18' longer than mine and their wheelbase is also significantly longer than my Super Duty (4' maybe, I didn't measure). Furthermore the 8 tires under the pin don't hurt their stability either.









I'm not disagreeing that a pivot forward of the rear axle will help, but it doesn't make up for lack of capacity on the springs, tires, frame, etc........


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## BoaterDan

Sean was only commenting specifically on the TV wheelbase issue. Even though the semi tractor wheelbase may be longer than your truck, the point is the ratio of it to the trailer length is still less than your rig.

Now that I think about it, I guess I've never understood the significance of the TV wheelbase (with a traditional hitch). I take it there's some minimizing of the sway influence from the trailer, but how does the TV wheelbase affect that?

As far as the pivot point, the benefit there is the trailer is now effectively pushing against the whole TV, fighting the traction of all four tires, right? Would a dually, with double the rubber and double the traction also resist sway twice as much as a single rear axle TV, all else being equal?


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## PDX_Doug

Nathan said:


> Surely the RV dealer would have advised against using such a short wheelbase vehicle for towing a long trailer?


A short wheel base isn't a problem if the pivot point is in the correct place. Take a look at the next semi-truck wheel base and the length it is towing.
[/quote]

I parked next to a lot of Semi's during my trip. Their trailers are 18' longer than mine and their wheelbase is also significantly longer than my Super Duty (4' maybe, I didn't measure). Furthermore the 8 tires under the pin don't hurt their stability either.









I'm not disagreeing that a pivot forward of the rear axle will help, but it doesn't make up for lack of capacity on the springs, tires, frame, etc........
[/quote]

I have to agree here. Sean has a point about the pivot point location, but to compare the towing situation and dynamics we face to that of a semi is incorrect. Besides the fact that the tractor has at least four - and usually eight - rear wheels, the trailers themselves are significantly different in that their wheels are at, or very near, the extreme rear end of the trailer. They are not trying to balance the load on either side of the trailer axles like a travel trailer, and hence do not have that long and heavy lever arm hanging out the back. In other words, with a semi trailer, the tail isn't trying to wag the dog in the same way a travel trailer is.


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## Nathan

BoaterDan said:


> Sean was only commenting specifically on the TV wheelbase issue. Even though the semi tractor wheelbase may be longer than your truck, the point is the ratio of it to the trailer length is still less than your rig.
> 
> Now that I think about it, I guess I've never understood the significance of the TV wheelbase (with a traditional hitch). I take it there's some minimizing of the sway influence from the trailer, but how does the TV wheelbase affect that?
> 
> As far as the pivot point, the benefit there is the trailer is now effectively pushing against the whole TV, fighting the traction of all four tires, right? Would a dually, with double the rubber and double the traction also resist sway twice as much as a single rear axle TV, all else being equal?


I'm not sure if a dually is twice as good, but it is definetly better. Anyone who hasn't driven a dually should try it. You definetly know you have an extra set of wheels back there. I'm strongly considering one for the next truck...


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## KosinTrouble

Ohhh a dually... I would love to have a dually, but alas one can not afford both a dually and a suitable trailer to make the dually worth it. Why buy the dually to tow a measly 26ft, would have to get a 35+ 5th wheel to make it worth while!!!!!

Kos


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## Nathan

KosinTrouble said:


> Ohhh a dually... I would love to have a dually, but alas one can not afford both a dually and a suitable trailer to make the dually worth it. Why buy the dually to tow a measly 26ft, would have to get a 35+ 5th wheel to make it worth while!!!!!
> 
> Kos


Yeah, well, I guess since mine is 35' 1", I'm there.


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## Sean Woodruff

I was commenting on wheel base and not load. I have never discussed an accident with anyone where the load was the seed of the accident. The load certainly has an affect on the loss of control but in every single accident the loss of control comes when the trailer starts whipping back and forth and acting on the tow vehicle. When the load is applied at the hitch ball, and that load acts on the rear overhang lever arm, the driver has to use steering and wheel base to counteract the forces. In most cases a combination of the speed, the sway force, the lever arm, and the steering do not work to control the trailer.


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## battalionchief3

Regardless of pivot points, wheelbase and load distribution in a trailer.....speed to great for road conditions. #1 cause of crashes. Tractor trailers don't generally flip for no reason or we would not allow them on the road. The car that cuts them off or the driver going to fast caused them to loose control is the major issue. Now I'm not saying tow a 35' TT with a Toureg ( he's probally overweight now) but if he drove 25 MPH from Maine to Florida and no one cut him off, he would arrive....eventually.


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## Sean Woodruff

battalionchief3 said:


> Regardless of pivot points, wheelbase and load distribution in a trailer.....speed to great for road conditions. #1 cause of crashes. Tractor trailers don't generally flip for no reason or we would not allow them on the road. The car that cuts them off or the driver going to fast caused them to loose control is the major issue. Now I'm not saying tow a 35' TT with a Toureg ( he's probally overweight now) but if he drove 25 MPH from Maine to Florida and no one cut him off, he would arrive....eventually.


YES... take a look it's the very first cause I talk about in this video...

Trailer Sway Causes Video


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## battalionchief3

Speeeeeeeeeed. If you anticipate whats ahead and slow down for it you are less likley to end up on your roof. Been driving HEAVY emergency vehciles for a few weeks now and seen a lot of crashes ( ours and yours ) and the #1 common factor in 95% is speed.


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## BoaterDan

One thing about speed - as Sean points out, when we reduce our speed to something reasonable and safe, we often create a disparity between our vehicle and others on the same road. This is especially true on the freeways, of course. I remember reading years ago that research showed that the speed differential is the key causal component of speed, speaking of freeway accidents in general (not towing specifically). This means that (all else being equal) a car going 60 when the traffic is flowing 80 hasn't made themselves safer, but actually more at risk, at least of _causing_ an accident.

So we have a catch-22 of sorts here. The typical freeway flow of 75-80 mph is WAY too fast for 98% of us to be pulling our rigs. From a practical standpoint though, we really have to find the "sweet spot" between what would be safe for us towing with no other vehicles around and staying withing a reasonal gap from the flow.

I've never thought about it specifically, but maybe this is why I've found I'm usually way more comfortable on a nice 2-lane state highway where I can cruise with traffic at 55-60 than the 4-laner where I feel like an old man with traffic whizzing by if I'm doing 65.


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## Scooter

Reference to towing and wheelbase.

How long?
Due to the different characteristics of a fifth wheel trailer, this applies more to a trailer than a fifth wheel.

Peace


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## Carey

PDX_Doug said:


> Surely the RV dealer would have advised against using such a short wheelbase vehicle for towing a long trailer?


A short wheel base isn't a problem if the pivot point is in the correct place. Take a look at the next semi-truck wheel base and the length it is towing.
[/quote]

I parked next to a lot of Semi's during my trip. Their trailers are 18' longer than mine and their wheelbase is also significantly longer than my Super Duty (4' maybe, I didn't measure). Furthermore the 8 tires under the pin don't hurt their stability either.









I'm not disagreeing that a pivot forward of the rear axle will help, but it doesn't make up for lack of capacity on the springs, tires, frame, etc........
[/quote]

I have to agree here. Sean has a point about the pivot point location, but to compare the towing situation and dynamics we face to that of a semi is incorrect. Besides the fact that the tractor has at least four - and usually eight - rear wheels, the trailers themselves are significantly different in that their wheels are at, or very near, the extreme rear end of the trailer. They are not trying to balance the load on either side of the trailer axles like a travel trailer, and hence do not have that long and heavy lever arm hanging out the back. In other words, with a semi trailer, the tail isn't trying to wag the dog in the same way a travel trailer is.
[/quote]

Ive driven semis with a 100 wheelbase combined with a 53 foot trailer and a semi with a 280 wheelbase combined with a 53 foot trailer.. As far as stability there isnt a lick of difference that can be felt.. There is no more swaying between the two. Both the 100 or 280 wheelbase have the same control over the trailer.

Now as far as ride, yep big difference. The 100 wheelbase beats ya up.

If the pivot point is in the proper/perfect spot it will not make a single bit of difference what your wheelbase is.. RV's included.

BUT our pivot points arent in the proper spot, so the next thing we can do is go longer on the wheelbase to make up the difference in feel and stability.

If you could take a test drive using the hitch I designed, what I said above would all of the sudden make since. Seans hitch actually does move the pivot point closer to the exact center of the tow vehilcle using physics. My hitch done the same thing but didnt use physics. It used mechanical force.

Yes a semi trailer doesnt wag the dog because of wheel location and by placing 50% on the trailer and 50% of the weight on the truck.

An rv is also a semi trailer becasue part of its weight rests on another vehicle.

So, since only 10-15% of the trailer weight is placed on the tow vehicle, you will need the pivot point moved to the exact center of the tow vehicle to make it have as much stability as a semi truck. The exact center between the two wheels will net you as much control as a semi has over its trailer. This will give you the leverage to overcome the offset of weight of 15% on the TV and 85% on the trailer. If you could have this, your trailer would act similar to a true 50/50 semi trailer. There would be no way to make it sway. You would have as much control over your rv as a semi has over its trailer.

Both of our hitches place the pivot point to on top or just ahead of the TV rear axle. So either gets you closer to the perfect center.

Carey


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## Collinsfam_WY

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Surely the RV dealer would have advised against using such a short wheelbase vehicle for towing a long trailer?


A short wheel base isn't a problem if the pivot point is in the correct place. Take a look at the next semi-truck wheel base and the length it is towing.
[/quote]

I parked next to a lot of Semi's during my trip. Their trailers are 18' longer than mine and their wheelbase is also significantly longer than my Super Duty (4' maybe, I didn't measure). Furthermore the 8 tires under the pin don't hurt their stability either.









I'm not disagreeing that a pivot forward of the rear axle will help, but it doesn't make up for lack of capacity on the springs, tires, frame, etc........
[/quote]

I have to agree here. Sean has a point about the pivot point location, but to compare the towing situation and dynamics we face to that of a semi is incorrect. Besides the fact that the tractor has at least four - and usually eight - rear wheels, the trailers themselves are significantly different in that their wheels are at, or very near, the extreme rear end of the trailer. They are not trying to balance the load on either side of the trailer axles like a travel trailer, and hence do not have that long and heavy lever arm hanging out the back. In other words, with a semi trailer, the tail isn't trying to wag the dog in the same way a travel trailer is.
[/quote]

_If you could take a test drive using the hitch I designed, what I said above would all of the sudden make since._

Carey
[/quote]

QFT!!!

-CC


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## Carey

Sean Woodruff said:


> I was commenting on wheel base and not load. I have never discussed an accident with anyone where the load was the seed of the accident. The load certainly has an affect on the loss of control but in every single accident the loss of control comes when the trailer starts whipping back and forth and acting on the tow vehicle. When the load is applied at the hitch ball, and that load acts on the rear overhang lever arm, the driver has to use steering and wheel base to counteract the forces. In most cases a combination of the speed, the sway force, the lever arm, and the steering do not work to control the trailer.


Once the trailer causes the rear axle on the tow vehicle to move, the driver has now lost all control over the trailer. The front axle on the tow vehicle still is the steering axle for the combo in the drivers hands. But the rear axle is now being controlled by the trailer and when the driver tries to correct this, often times the driver loses it because he is riding on a ball bearing at this point.

Now that the rear axle on the tow vehicle is being moved because of forces of the trailer, the tow vehicle becomes uncontrollable.

Both our hitches do a much better job of stopping this problem than anything you can add to the rear of the tow vehicle while using a standard reciever hitch.

Basically once the trailer causes the rear tow vehicle axle to move, your tow vehicle will act as if it has 2 steering axles. One for the TV and one for the trailer..

By using pivot points that have been moved forward either mechanicly or physicly, the trailer cannot turn the TV rear axle into its steer axle as easy.

When any semi truck crashes, the only casue of it is the trucks rear drive axle could not overcome the forces the trailer had placed on it.. Yes if you drive forward and hit something you will crash... Not talking about those.. Im talking about the 95% of semi crashes that was caused by a loss of stability on one of its sets of wheels..

It takes much more force to cause the semi drive axle to become the trailer steer axle than it does our rigs. Now if your pivot point is moved forward it will take much more force to cause the drive axle to become the trailer steer axle..

The only way to do this is by getting a 5th wheel or getting a hitch that changes the effectivness of the control of the trailer at the bumper reciever.

Sorry in a rush..

Carey


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## Nathan

Glad you could pop in for the discussion Carey. Very interesting as always.


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## Sean Woodruff

Carey should do the next video in my series...


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## Carey

To further back up that wheelbase has little to do with anything if a perfect pivot point can be used along with a perfect wheel placement and weight distribution is:

Look a companies like ups, and fed ex. They use ultra short sometime sub 100 wheelbase single axle trucks to tow the most dangerous combination. Triple trailers. This further backs up that wheelbase has nothing to do with it IF the other two conditions are met.

When on slick road the only difference is the 100 wheelbase wont allow the driver to be able to correct a push from the trailer as easy as what he could feel from a 280 wheelbase.

So the only difference is the driver can feel a jack knife situation slightly quicker with the long truck.

You gotta remember that when a semi trailer overtakes or steers the drive axle a driver has a already lost it in most situations. But the driver can feel what is happening a bit quicker with the long truck. Makes since as the forward lever is a longer lever versus a short lever 100 wheelbase truck.

Its very sad we are stuck with early 1900 technolgy in automotive. Nothing we can do about it except buy long wheelbase vehicles and use the best technolgy that is out there for us.

You new when I seen this Id be all over it Nathan.. lol

The stuff that was written here in just 2 pages will prolly make someone take a closer look at there towing situation. So most likely the unfortunate crash that Curtis seen will now be used to help someone fix there poor setup and possibly save a future crash.

Thats why I love this place.. The bad has been changed to the good.

Carey


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## CamperAndy

collinsfam_tx said:


> QFT!!!
> 
> -CC


Not sure I have seen that acronym, so I googled it. Are any of them close?

Acronym Definition 
QFT Quantum Field Theory 
QFT Quantitative Feedback Theory 
QFT Quoted For Truth (website; slang) 
QFT Quantum Fourier Transform 
QFT Quality Family Time 
QFT Qualified Funeral Trust 
QFT Quality Face Time 
QFT Quantitative Fluorescence Technique 
QFT Quest For Tech, Inc. 
QFT Quit Freaking Talking (polite form) 
QFT Quite Freaking True (polite form)


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## clarkely

Sean Woodruff said:


> Carey should do the next video in my series...


That would be a Cool Video..Seeing the two of you on it..................

Maybe it could be an outbackers.com safety Video........... I believe there was talk of doing/offering some safety classes at RV Shows.......maybe a video would compliment it well............. Doug.........


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## Carey

Sean Woodruff said:


> Carey should do the next video in my series...


Sounds fun.. Im not a very good talker though.. lol Not a very good writter either..

The only thing I do have is over 2 million miles towing experience and even though I cant talk well or write well, I manage to scramble enough words together to show what I have to say.. It takes me a few posts though.. lol

Carey


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## Carey

CamperAndy said:


> QFT!!!
> 
> -CC


Not sure I have seen that acronym, so I googled it. Are any of them close?

Acronym Definition 
QFT Quantum Field Theory 
QFT Quantitative Feedback Theory 
QFT Quoted For Truth (website; slang) 
QFT Quantum Fourier Transform 
QFT Quality Family Time 
QFT Qualified Funeral Trust 
QFT Quality Face Time 
QFT Quantitative Fluorescence Technique 
QFT Quest For Tech, Inc. 
QFT Quit Freaking Talking (polite form) 
QFT Quite Freaking True (polite form)
[/quote]

lol I thought the same... lol

Curtis once ran a forum so I figured it was some high up forum quote..

So now that one of our forum masters dont even know what you said Curtis you better fix it!

Thats funny Andy!

Carey


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## Carey

BoaterDan said:


> One thing about speed - as Sean points out, when we reduce our speed to something reasonable and safe, we often create a disparity between our vehicle and others on the same road. This is especially true on the freeways, of course. I remember reading years ago that research showed that the speed differential is the key causal component of speed, speaking of freeway accidents in general (not towing specifically). This means that (all else being equal) a car going 60 when the traffic is flowing 80 hasn't made themselves safer, but actually more at risk, at least of _causing_ an accident.
> 
> So we have a catch-22 of sorts here. The typical freeway flow of 75-80 mph is WAY too fast for 98% of us to be pulling our rigs. From a practical standpoint though, we really have to find the "sweet spot" between what would be safe for us towing with no other vehicles around and staying withing a reasonal gap from the flow.
> 
> I've never thought about it specifically, but maybe this is why I've found I'm usually way more comfortable on a nice 2-lane state highway where I can cruise with traffic at 55-60 than the 4-laner where I feel like an old man with traffic whizzing by if I'm doing 65.


I tow at a steady 60-63mph no matter what state im in.. I dont care about traffic or the speed others are doing. I do what works for me. If they run me over its there problem. Yea we can say that I am setting myself up for a crash. I will take my chances..

We will soon see semis governed at 65-68mph. They will soon have black boxes and speed controls that are forced to be installed by our govt.

Dont let the traffic flow decide your speed. You do what is safe for you and let em deal with it. You are not the only vehicle doing 15mph under the limit.

I have often done 20mph going down a nasty mountain pass on a two lane road.. When the speed limit is 55 this creates a bad situation.. Problem is the safe speed for my semi is 20mph down that steep grade. I dont worry about if someone may hit me. I only worry about myself.

If I done that 55mph that would make everyone else happy I would have died before I made it to the first few curves.

Point is dont EVER let others decide your speed!

Carey


----------



## clarkely

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Carey should do the next video in my series...


Sounds fun.. Im not a very good talker though.. lol Not a very good writter either..

The only thing I do have is over 2 million miles towing experience and even though I cant talk well or write well, I manage to scramble enough words together to show what I have to say.. It takes me a few posts though.. lol

Carey
[/quote]

A few posts...because like me the fingers can't keep up with the Brain.........then after you hit enter you remember the rest of what you wanted to sy....nothing wrong with that


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## Collinsfam_WY

QFT Quoted For Truth (website; slang)









-CC


----------



## Tyvekcat

"I tow at a steady 60-63mph no matter what state im in.. I dont care about traffic or the speed others are doing. I do what works for me. If they run me over its there problem. Yea we can say that I am setting myself up for a crash. I will take my chances..

We will soon see semis governed at 65-68mph. They will soon have black boxes and speed controls that are forced to be installed by our govt.

Dont let the traffic flow decide your speed. You do what is safe for you and let em deal with it. You are not the only vehicle doing 15mph under the limit.

I have often done 20mph going down a nasty mountain pass on a two lane road.. When the speed limit is 55 this creates a bad situation.. Problem is the safe speed for my semi is 20mph down that steep grade. I dont worry about if someone may hit me. I only worry about myself.

If I done that 55mph that would make everyone else happy I would have died before I made it to the first few curves.

Point is dont EVER let others decide your speed!

Carey
[/quote]
Heck yeah ! I stay about 64 MPH. I am showing this to my wife ! Thanks Carey.

rob


----------



## KosinTrouble

collinsfam_tx said:


> QFT Quoted For Truth (website; slang)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -CC


I am so glad you posted that Collin, because the internet slang that I know it as is Quit %$*(# talking.... So I was wondering why you posted that, Now that, that is cleared up. I no longer feel like there is about to be a forum war going on.

I personally love this discussion and am learning lots, so I appriciate everyone chimming in.

Kos


----------



## Carey

collinsfam_tx said:


> QFT Quoted For Truth (website; slang)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -CC


I learned something today! QFT

Thanks Curtis!

Carey


----------



## Partsman Ed

I'll vote for Quantum Field Theory being a Star Trek fan.


----------



## TwoElkhounds

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> I was commenting on wheel base and not load. I have never discussed an accident with anyone where the load was the seed of the accident. The load certainly has an affect on the loss of control but in every single accident the loss of control comes when the trailer starts whipping back and forth and acting on the tow vehicle. When the load is applied at the hitch ball, and that load acts on the rear overhang lever arm, the driver has to use steering and wheel base to counteract the forces. In most cases a combination of the speed, the sway force, the lever arm, and the steering do not work to control the trailer.


Once the trailer causes the rear axle on the tow vehicle to move, the driver has now lost all control over the trailer. The front axle on the tow vehicle still is the steering axle for the combo in the drivers hands. But the rear axle is now being controlled by the trailer and when the driver tries to correct this, often times the driver loses it because he is riding on a ball bearing at this point.

Now that the rear axle on the tow vehicle is being moved because of forces of the trailer, the tow vehicle becomes uncontrollable.

Both our hitches do a much better job of stopping this problem than anything you can add to the rear of the tow vehicle while using a standard reciever hitch.

Basically once the trailer causes the rear tow vehicle axle to move, your tow vehicle will act as if it has 2 steering axles. One for the TV and one for the trailer..

By using pivot points that have been moved forward either mechanicly or physicly, the trailer cannot turn the TV rear axle into its steer axle as easy.

When any semi truck crashes, the only casue of it is the trucks rear drive axle could not overcome the forces the trailer had placed on it.. Yes if you drive forward and hit something you will crash... Not talking about those.. Im talking about the 95% of semi crashes that was caused by a loss of stability on one of its sets of wheels..

It takes much more force to cause the semi drive axle to become the trailer steer axle than it does our rigs. Now if your pivot point is moved forward it will take much more force to cause the drive axle to become the trailer steer axle..

The only way to do this is by getting a 5th wheel or getting a hitch that changes the effectivness of the control of the trailer at the bumper reciever.

Sorry in a rush..

Carey
[/quote]

Hi Carey,

Good discussion as always. However, I think we need to be careful when we discuss these types of tow combinations. You are clearly a very knowledgeable person, in addition to being a professional driver. You have experience and knowledge which far exceeds nearly all who frequent this site.

However, I am pretty confident that all of the people I saw towing 30+ foot trailers with Cherokees, Explorers, or Tauregs have no clue what a pivot point is or what impact it would have on their towing experience. They likely looked at their TV tow rating (and probably assumed it was the max case) and compared against the trailer brochure. They saw that they had a few hundred pounds of margin and assumed they were good. The RV salesman probably confirmed their decision.

I don't care where their pivot point is or what type of hitch somebody has, there is no way anyone should be towing 30+ foot trailers with Tauregs, Explorers, or Cherokees. This is a danger to all of us on the road. Many Newbies visit this site to validate their purchase decisions or confirm their combinations. Posts that imply that a person can pull off towing a 30+ foot trailer with an exceedingly short wheel base vehicle simply by using a hitch only serves to enable bad decisions by inexperienced people.

DAN


----------



## Carey

TwoElkhounds said:


> I was commenting on wheel base and not load. I have never discussed an accident with anyone where the load was the seed of the accident. The load certainly has an affect on the loss of control but in every single accident the loss of control comes when the trailer starts whipping back and forth and acting on the tow vehicle. When the load is applied at the hitch ball, and that load acts on the rear overhang lever arm, the driver has to use steering and wheel base to counteract the forces. In most cases a combination of the speed, the sway force, the lever arm, and the steering do not work to control the trailer.


Once the trailer causes the rear axle on the tow vehicle to move, the driver has now lost all control over the trailer. The front axle on the tow vehicle still is the steering axle for the combo in the drivers hands. But the rear axle is now being controlled by the trailer and when the driver tries to correct this, often times the driver loses it because he is riding on a ball bearing at this point.

Now that the rear axle on the tow vehicle is being moved because of forces of the trailer, the tow vehicle becomes uncontrollable.

Both our hitches do a much better job of stopping this problem than anything you can add to the rear of the tow vehicle while using a standard reciever hitch.

Basically once the trailer causes the rear tow vehicle axle to move, your tow vehicle will act as if it has 2 steering axles. One for the TV and one for the trailer..

By using pivot points that have been moved forward either mechanicly or physicly, the trailer cannot turn the TV rear axle into its steer axle as easy.

When any semi truck crashes, the only casue of it is the trucks rear drive axle could not overcome the forces the trailer had placed on it.. Yes if you drive forward and hit something you will crash... Not talking about those.. Im talking about the 95% of semi crashes that was caused by a loss of stability on one of its sets of wheels..

It takes much more force to cause the semi drive axle to become the trailer steer axle than it does our rigs. Now if your pivot point is moved forward it will take much more force to cause the drive axle to become the trailer steer axle..

The only way to do this is by getting a 5th wheel or getting a hitch that changes the effectivness of the control of the trailer at the bumper reciever.

Sorry in a rush..

Carey
[/quote]

Hi Carey,

Good discussion as always. However, I think we need to be careful when we discuss these types of tow combinations. You are clearly a very knowledgeable person, in addition to being a professional driver. You have experience and knowledge which far exceeds nearly all who frequent this site.

However, I am pretty confident that all of the people I saw towing 30+ foot trailers with Cherokees, Explorers, or Tauregs have no clue what a pivot point is or what impact it would have on their towing experience. They likely looked at their TV tow rating (and probably assumed it was the max case) and compared against the trailer brochure. They saw that they had a few hundred pounds of margin and assumed they were good. The RV salesman probably confirmed their decision.

I don't care where their pivot point is or what type of hitch somebody has, there is no way anyone should be towing 30+ foot trailers with Tauregs, Explorers, or Cherokees. This is a danger to all of us on the road. Many Newbies visit this site to validate their purchase decisions or confirm their combinations. Posts that imply that a person can pull off towing a 30+ foot trailer with an exceedingly short wheel base vehicle simply by using a hitch only serves to enable bad decisions by inexperienced people.

DAN
[/quote]

Totally agree. I dont like seeing the above tow any trailer.. Why? They are not rated for it.

Never said a person could tow a 30 foot trailer using any short wheelbase vehicle.

I said semis are able to because they have met all the other conditions of a perfect pivot point and perfect weight distribution. It makes not a single bit of difference what wheelbase a semi has.

But in automotive there is nothing that can create a perfect pivot point other than a few hitches that move the pivot point to the rear axle..

The towing capacity on any of the above mid size SUV is not high enough to tow a trailer that is bigger than about 20 feet. And those trailers need to be ultrlights. They would greatly benefit from using a hitch like Seans.

One more thing is if you have a short wheelbase SUV and would like to tow a trailer within your tow capacity limits, I dont care how long the trailer is..

As long as a person is in limits and is using a Hitch that moves the pivot point like Pro Pride, Hensley, or Pull Rite, I say go for it..

Thats how well these hitches work.

Yes you could use a 119 wheelbase Durango and tow a 30+ footer if you use one of these hitches as long as your in limits.

Yes they work that well.. So I disagree to a point.

Carey


----------



## Sean Woodruff

TwoElkhounds said:


> I don't care where their pivot point is or what type of hitch somebody has, there is no way anyone should be towing 30+ foot trailers with Tauregs, Explorers, or Cherokees. This is a danger to all of us on the road. Many Newbies visit this site to validate their purchase decisions or confirm their combinations. Posts that imply that a person can pull off towing a 30+ foot trailer with an exceedingly short wheel base vehicle simply by using a hitch only serves to enable bad decisions by inexperienced people.
> 
> DAN


I feel almost the EXACT same way about people towing with any style of conventional hitch that incorporates friction to attempt to control sway. I would take a Toureg towing a 30' trailer with a pivot point projection hitch over a Suburban towing a 25' trailer with a conventional hitch and be much more stable and in control.

I don't mean any offense but when you don't know the feeling of the stability, you just don't know. Then, your last paragraph above becomes just the other end of the scale and can be just as dangerous as the inexperienced person who doesn't know.


----------



## BoaterDan

Let me jump in here before this takes a wrong turn.









Any kind of blanket statement, especially one with intentional exaggeration, is dangerous. We've had this discussion at least a couple times before. Both your points are valid.

I've also worried that too many people try to correct a setup that is inherently unable to be made safe (significantly over tow vehicle rating, for example) by throwing a pivot point hitch on and solving the sway problem and thereby masking the other ones. Add to that the reality that a good portion of the fans of these hitches are kool-aid drinkers who came from horribly unsafe configurations and make the most outrageous and ridiculous claims about how their hitch will solve world hunger. (No offense intended Sean, that's just the experience I've had.)

On the other hand, objective observation of these discussions reveals that Sean's point about not knowing what stable is until you've felt it seems to have a LOT of merit. There's too many people that tell the story of being skeptical until they've felt the difference, and then they say they would never ever tow with a traditional hitch again.

I guess I'm still one of those. I honestly can't imagine feeling more stable than what my dual cam gives me when I stay at speeds at or below 65mph. What I experience seems to be just what I hear described by Hensley or ProPride users. Does the guy with the 27 foot trailer and the single friction device feel the same way?

It just came to mind too that Sean you left out one of the reasons for sway in the video, and that's improperly adjusted trailer brakes and/or controller. When I did my first adjustment after a few months, I found out one of the the star wheels had to be turned about 10 times before I got any contact. That explained why the trailer seemed to yank the back end of the truck over when I braked! Which takes me back to my personal soap box, which is don't be obsessed with any one of these safety issues at the expense of others. I'm going to go on a limb here and guess that only 25% of trailer owners EVER adjust their trailer brakes.


----------



## Sean Woodruff

BoaterDan said:


> It just came to mind too that Sean you left out one of the reasons for sway in the video, and that's improperly adjusted trailer brakes and/or controller. When I did my first adjustment after a few months, I found out one of the the star wheels had to be turned about 10 times before I got any contact. That explained why the trailer seemed to yank the back end of the truck over when I braked! Which takes me back to my personal soap box, which is don't be obsessed with any one of these safety issues at the expense of others. I'm going to go on a limb here and guess that only 25% of trailer owners EVER adjust their trailer brakes.


I agree about brakes and controllers but that is a whole other issue. Brakes and controllers don't have anything to do with a trailer swaying.

I enjoy discussing this with all of you. This forum is one of the most balanced on the net and it makes for great discussions that everyone can learn from.


----------



## N7OQ

Sean Woodruff said:


> I don't care where their pivot point is or what type of hitch somebody has, there is no way anyone should be towing 30+ foot trailers with Tauregs, Explorers, or Cherokees. This is a danger to all of us on the road. Many Newbies visit this site to validate their purchase decisions or confirm their combinations. Posts that imply that a person can pull off towing a 30+ foot trailer with an exceedingly short wheel base vehicle simply by using a hitch only serves to enable bad decisions by inexperienced people.
> 
> DAN


I feel almost the EXACT same way about people towing with any style of conventional hitch that incorporates friction to attempt to control sway. I would take a Toureg towing a 30' trailer with a pivot point projection hitch over a Suburban towing a 25' trailer with a conventional hitch and be much more stable and in control.

I don't mean any offense but when you don't know the feeling of the stability, you just don't know. Then, your last paragraph above becomes just the other end of the scale and can be just as dangerous as the inexperienced person who doesn't know.
[/quote]

So you are saying my Equlizer is no good because it used friction to control sway. Would you say driving a empty truck with no trailer or added weight would have a stable feeling because that is what towing my trailer with a Equalizer feels like so how can adding a way over priced pivot point hitch make it feel any better? I think your product gives people a false feeling of security, A Toureg towing a 30' trailer is dangerous even with a Pivot point hitch.


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## Carey

N7OQ said:


> I don't care where their pivot point is or what type of hitch somebody has, there is no way anyone should be towing 30+ foot trailers with Tauregs, Explorers, or Cherokees. This is a danger to all of us on the road. Many Newbies visit this site to validate their purchase decisions or confirm their combinations. Posts that imply that a person can pull off towing a 30+ foot trailer with an exceedingly short wheel base vehicle simply by using a hitch only serves to enable bad decisions by inexperienced people.
> 
> DAN


I feel almost the EXACT same way about people towing with any style of conventional hitch that incorporates friction to attempt to control sway. I would take a Toureg towing a 30' trailer with a pivot point projection hitch over a Suburban towing a 25' trailer with a conventional hitch and be much more stable and in control.

I don't mean any offense but when you don't know the feeling of the stability, you just don't know. Then, your last paragraph above becomes just the other end of the scale and can be just as dangerous as the inexperienced person who doesn't know.
[/quote]

So you are saying my Equlizer is no good because it used friction to control sway. Would you say driving a empty truck with no trailer or added weight would have a stable feeling because that is what towing my trailer with a Equalizer feels like so how can adding a way over priced pivot point hitch make it feel any better? I think your product gives people a false feeling of security, A Toureg towing a 30' trailer is dangerous even with a Pivot point hitch.
[/quote]

Bill you could tow your trailer with nothing.. No wd hitch at all. But a ford explorer towing your trailer would be a very dangerous combo . An eq hitch would have a hard time even making that ford explorer safe towing your trailer. You wouldnt notice as much of a difference compared to an explorer towing your trailer and using a PP hitch.

A Toureg towing a 30 footer is much less dangerous if they are using a hitch that moves the pivot point closer to the sweet spot which is exact center of the vehicle.

Sean makes a great point. A trailer is very unbalanced and is a tough thing to tow right from the start, if some aide isnt used. We live in modern times and luckily we have devices that can totally solve any problem of any trailer and vehicle combo if the tow vehicle is being used within its limits.

The hitch I designed would allow an explorer to tow your trailer and not feel any tongue weight on the explorer. Thats something few have ever done. So my hitch only helps with weight distribution versus Seans that uses a device that stops all trailer sway.

My hitch turns a semi trailer into a full trailer, which is a self supporting trailer.

The 2 major concerns of towing for automotive are pivot point, and weight distribution.

If these are met there will never be trailer sway using any size vehicle as long as its within its towing limits.

I didnt really want to get to talking about the hitch I designed cause I have stopped working with it till I see a growing economy.. But here I am..

If a Toureg has a 7700lb tow limit Seans or my hitch will allow that Toureg to tow right up to its tow limit and be extremely safe using any length of trailer including beyond 30 feet.. So if a loaded 33 footer weighed 7700lbs either hitch will make the Toureg just as safe as your 3/4 truck towing a 23 foot trailer..

I know few believe this but all of the problems of towing with any vehicle using any size trailer has been solved. Problem: The technolgy and amount of manufacturing labor to solve the problem is expensive and time consuming for the manufacture of these higher technology hitches. Thus all of them are expensive for the consumer to own.

All I have been trying to say here is everyone is concerned with small and short wheelbase vehicles towing long and large trailers. Well, for a price there are devices that make that small and short vehicle act as if its a 3/4 ton truck towing that long and large trailer..

So I say as long as these devices are used and the vehicle is towing within its limits they will be as safe or safer than someone using a much larger vehicle to tow that very same trailer..

But still, we live in a world of dis believers on this technolgy, so those people simply buy a great big truck because thats what makes them feel better. Then that further clouds there vision of a small vehicle towing a large trailer if a device is used to overcome all of the weight or change the hinge point of the combo..

Yes what Sean and I have done are looked at as if the technolgy is hokie.. Everyone thinks if it hasnt already been done, that it can never be done.

I feel we are in the wilber wright stages of automotive technolgy, yeah, baby stages. Many feel we are in the star trec stages of auto technology and many feel how could things get safer and better from right now.

I think in the coming years we will see things beyond our wildest dreams come true in automotive technolgy. Totally new ways of towing will be one of the things we will see change..

Remember Bill, your trailer hitch on your truck is the exact same hitching idea that was used in 1908 model automobiles.

A few men have dreamed of change and have actually made there dreams a reality.. Unfortunatly the changes still need to be manufactured and produced in the USA because this devices are somewhat complicated and would not fair well being made in China like most all hitching accesories are for us to purchase.

Until we can produce these on a grand scale and send the manufacturing to china they all will remain a very expensive device to own.

But what is cool is there are real devices out there that can transform automotive towing into much safer experience than what we use in mass at our present time..

Its normal that people fight change..

Well, we are gonna change an incredible amount as far as automotive technolgy in the next 25 years..

Open your eyes and let it happen... We are goin for a ride all.. not all will be good.. But some changes will be so drastic that it will change the way we will know the automobile in every way..

I CANT WAIT!

Carey


----------



## Carey

This is just as unsafe as a Toureg towing a 30 footer.

This is a 41 foot park model with a 16-1700lb tongue weight and weighs 13500lbs empty.

Now I have a question?

Do you feel a dually truck towing this way oversize trailer is safer than a Toureg towing a 30 foot trailer? I say NOT!

I can guarantee you this is a trailer that turns my dually into a Jeep cherokee..

I wish you all could tow one of these.

But, few would ever believe this is actually less safe than a Toureg towing a 30 footer if using a higher technolgy hitch..

I just dragged 4 of these from Elkhart to Onatrio, Canada. I didnt enjoy not one single minute behind the wheel. I wished for my hitch. The wd hitch I was using was maxed out and would barely control this thing. My air bags were set at 60psi..

They were skyline nomads that are specially produced for an rv vacation, cabin type park in Canada.. They had all home style appliances and solid hard wood cabinets. Real toilets and bathrooms/showers too.. These were heavy!

Carey


----------



## clarkely

N7OQ said:


> So you are saying my Equlizer is no good because it used friction to control sway. Would you say driving a empty truck with no trailer or added weight would have a stable feeling because that is what towing my trailer with a Equalizer feels like so how can adding a way over priced pivot point hitch make it feel any better? I think your product gives people a false feeling of security, A Toureg towing a 30' trailer is dangerous even with a Pivot point hitch.


I would say they both were referring to Longer Trailers in the 30+ foot range as the forces increase with the size of the sail....

I also thought i would Put a Link here to a post by another outbacker who has a long trailer and went from an equalizer to a Projection Pivot Hitch Design.......... Since He has towed the 30+ foot trailer with both designs, IMO his evaluation is excellent and unbiased and relates well to the topic of the discussion.....He has all good things working for him in his Long TT toweing set up.............wheelbase, Power, & Hitch.

Sorry Sayonara if i am throwing you into the discussion but i know you had a review on here and went from equalizer to Projection Hitch.

I never towed with the equalizer so i cannot comment in the comparison, i can only comment on the projection hitch.


----------



## Nathan

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Let me jump in here before this takes a wrong turn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any kind of blanket statement, especially one with intentional exaggeration, is dangerous. We've had this discussion at least a couple times before. Both your points are valid.
> 
> I've also worried that too many people try to correct a setup that is inherently unable to be made safe (significantly over tow vehicle rating, for example) by throwing a pivot point hitch on and solving the sway problem and thereby masking the other ones. Add to that the reality that a good portion of the fans of these hitches are kool-aid drinkers who came from horribly unsafe configurations and make the most outrageous and ridiculous claims about how their hitch will solve world hunger. (No offense intended Sean, that's just the experience I've had.)
> ...


Ok, one issue keeps coming up in these posts and is getting glossed over: *Load Capacity of the TV*. Too many people out there ignore their vehicle's ratings and instead rely on either the quoted tow rating, or on the beleif that with a fancy hitch they can ignore it altogether. I don't care where your pivot point is, but if you have overloaded your suspension, you will have a hard time controlling the vehicle. You can also have blowouts of tires, steering issues, rear end failures..... the list goes on an on...

Second, one item I didn't see brought up is the area of the sail you are carrying behind you. Again, moving the pivot point to the "Ideal" location may prevent you from swaying into the ditch, but a gusty crosswind can push you off the road. I'm not saying you can't tow it safely, just that you have reduced your safety margin. A 30'TT on Carey's truck vs a 30'TT on a midsize SUV catches a wind gust. Let's assume all are pivoted optimally, and all weights are in spec. The LT tires (6 of them) should keep Carey on the road for a long time after the SUV meets the shoulder.

Again, I think this is a good discussion and I'm not saying you can't design a smaller TV to tow a trailer, but that the pivot point is not the ONLY variable to worry about.


----------



## Sean Woodruff

N7OQ said:


> So you are saying my Equlizer is no good because it used friction to control sway. Would you say driving a empty truck with no trailer or added weight would have a stable feeling because that is what towing my trailer with a Equalizer feels like so how can adding a way over priced pivot point hitch make it feel any better? I think your product gives people a false feeling of security, A Toureg towing a 30' trailer is dangerous even with a Pivot point hitch.


I don't think I ever said that about your Equalizer. I stated the way I feel about seeing a conventional hitch that uses friction because I have had way too many experiences, and talks with customers, to not fee that way.

In the end, it really doesn't matter how I feel. I should not be talking about feel and only physical facts of how it works. The feeling discussions never really get anywhere because people get entrenched in their feelings.


----------



## Carey

Nathan said:


> Let me jump in here before this takes a wrong turn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any kind of blanket statement, especially one with intentional exaggeration, is dangerous. We've had this discussion at least a couple times before. Both your points are valid.
> 
> I've also worried that too many people try to correct a setup that is inherently unable to be made safe (significantly over tow vehicle rating, for example) by throwing a pivot point hitch on and solving the sway problem and thereby masking the other ones. Add to that the reality that a good portion of the fans of these hitches are kool-aid drinkers who came from horribly unsafe configurations and make the most outrageous and ridiculous claims about how their hitch will solve world hunger. (No offense intended Sean, that's just the experience I've had.)
> ...


Ok, one issue keeps coming up in these posts and is getting glossed over: *Load Capacity of the TV*. Too many people out there ignore their vehicle's ratings and instead rely on either the quoted tow rating, or on the beleif that with a fancy hitch they can ignore it altogether. I don't care where your pivot point is, but if you have overloaded your suspension, you will have a hard time controlling the vehicle. You can also have blowouts of tires, steering issues, rear end failures..... the list goes on an on...

Second, one item I didn't see brought up is the area of the sail you are carrying behind you. Again, moving the pivot point to the "Ideal" location may prevent you from swaying into the ditch, but a gusty crosswind can push you off the road. I'm not saying you can't tow it safely, just that you have reduced your safety margin. A 30'TT on Carey's truck vs a 30'TT on a midsize SUV catches a wind gust. Let's assume all are pivoted optimally, and all weights are in spec. The LT tires (6 of them) should keep Carey on the road for a long time after the SUV meets the shoulder.

Again, I think this is a good discussion and I'm not saying you can't design a smaller TV to tow a trailer, but that the pivot point is not the ONLY variable to worry about.
[/quote]

As far as the weight, With the hitch I designed there is no longer any weight on the tow vehicle. So tires and gears in the whole driveline run way cooler. I never done a scientific temp test, but the rear diff would get so hot I couldnt touch it without my hitch and the rear diff would be so cool I could lay my hand on it all day with my hitch.

Wind, My hitch creates so much more of a locking effect bewteen it and the rear TV tires that what would bother you before could not even be felt after. I towed a 33 foot trailer in 60+mph winds using my hitch with my 1/2 ton truck..

I would say that adding just my hitch would increase the safety margin in wind by 50%.. Yes it works that good.

Braking. My hitch gives so much more front end braking back that its hard to discuss. Without my hitch the trailer will push the rear of the tow vehicle down and take weight off of the front which causes poor braking performance. With my hitch the front end stays planted.

I done some braking tests. I could stop 75 feet quicker with my hitch than without at 65mph to zero.

If you have a tire blowout in a curve your control over your trailer would be enhanced much more with my hitch than without.

I know we have engineers here on this forum.

All of the problems of towing have been solved with my hitch. I can set here all day and tell you this.. And knowone will ever believe it. Thats ok. But there has been some men out there that have solved the towing dilema of using any size vehicle with any size trailer. In time we will use these devices and they will become second nature to us just like what we have now.

I could tow that heavy 41 foot park model with my 1/2 ton using my hitch if I wanted. I could run highway speeds and be just as safe or safer than my dually without my hitch.

Yes it works that good. What I done totally changes towing in every aspect of towing laws we know today.

All of your concerns have been addressed Nathan and these hitches change all of your concerns to total positives.

If your intersted I can bring you my hitch. 
You find us an F150. We will go hook up to Deans Sydney and it will tow better than than what his super duty tows with his eq hitch.

As far as power, Im not changing power here. But Im changing every other towing law. I am in Indiana every week. It wouldnt be a big deal at all to take a day off and swing up and spend a day with you and dean showing what I have done.

Carey


----------



## Nathan

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> As far as the weight, With the hitch I designed there is no longer any weight on the tow vehicle. So tires and gears in the whole driveline run way cooler. I never done a scientific temp test, but the rear diff would get so hot I couldnt touch it without my hitch and the rear diff would be so cool I could lay my hand on it all day with my hitch.
> 
> Wind, My hitch creates so much more of a locking effect bewteen it and the rear TV tires that what would bother you before could not even be felt after. I towed a 33 foot trailer in 60+mph winds using my hitch with my 1/2 ton truck..
> 
> I would say that adding just my hitch would increase the safety margin in wind by 50%.. Yes it works that good.
> 
> Braking. My hitch gives so much more front end braking back that its hard to discuss. Without my hitch the trailer will push the rear of the tow vehicle down and take weight off of the front which causes poor braking performance. With my hitch the front end stays planted.
> 
> I done some braking tests. I could stop 75 feet quicker with my hitch than without at 65mph to zero.
> 
> If you have a tire blowout in a curve your control over your trailer would be enhanced much more with my hitch than without.
> 
> I know we have engineers here on this forum.
> 
> All of the problems of towing have been solved with my hitch. I can set here all day and tell you this.. And knowone will ever believe it. Thats ok. But there has been some men out there that have solved the towing dilema of using any size vehicle with any size trailer. In time we will use these devices and they will become second nature to us just like what we have now.
> 
> I could tow that heavy 41 foot park model with my 1/2 ton using my hitch if I wanted. I could run highway speeds and be just as safe or safer than my dually without my hitch.
> 
> Yes it works that good. What I done totally changes towing in every aspect of towing laws we know today.
> 
> All of your concerns have been addressed Nathan and these hitches change all of your concerns to total positives.
> 
> If your intersted I can bring you my hitch.
> You find us an F150. We will go hook up to Deans Sydney and it will tow better than than what his super duty tows now.
> 
> As far as power, Im not changing power here. But Im changing every other towing law. I am in Indiana every week. It wouldnt be a big deal at all to take a day off and swing up and spend a day with you and dean showing what I have done.
> 
> Carey


My bad, I was just thinking along the lines of the pivot point projection designs.

Carey, you're right that your hitch is changing the situation yet again. It alleviates the GVWR restriction. There's still that nagging GCWR, but I realize that with proper brakes setup, you should be ok on most things (There's still transmission durability, but as long as you don't try to claim the failure under warranty, I'm ok with it!







)

I'd love to play with the hitch and I know where I can get F150's, but I'd get fired if I towed anything with one







(one word: liability







).

Of course DW has the Flex, and then that should be able to tow an OB, but the reprocussions from that would be worse than borrowing a company vehicle...









Nahh, better not even think about that...


----------



## Carey

One more huge point when it comes to pivot points in the wind.

Take a semi that pulls two trailers using a converter dolly hooked to the bumper of the first trailer. It is flat dangerous in the wind.

A truck like this:









Now a truck that uses a perfect pivot point towing that second trailer and not using a device hanging off of the back bumper. What would bother the fed ex truck wouldnt even be felt using this combo.










By changing the pivot point between the two vehicles above the second one is 100% safer in the wind.

Just by changing the pivot point the safety margin is increased by many fold. The second pic is called a B train and it uses the same hitching point as the truck uses. The 1st trailers frame extends out so a 2nd trailer can be attached.

Yes the 2nd pic came from canada. They know how to haul multiple trailers and us americans have no clue.

Carey


----------



## Carey

Nathan said:


> As far as the weight, With the hitch I designed there is no longer any weight on the tow vehicle. So tires and gears in the whole driveline run way cooler. I never done a scientific temp test, but the rear diff would get so hot I couldnt touch it without my hitch and the rear diff would be so cool I could lay my hand on it all day with my hitch.
> 
> Wind, My hitch creates so much more of a locking effect bewteen it and the rear TV tires that what would bother you before could not even be felt after. I towed a 33 foot trailer in 60+mph winds using my hitch with my 1/2 ton truck..
> 
> I would say that adding just my hitch would increase the safety margin in wind by 50%.. Yes it works that good.
> 
> Braking. My hitch gives so much more front end braking back that its hard to discuss. Without my hitch the trailer will push the rear of the tow vehicle down and take weight off of the front which causes poor braking performance. With my hitch the front end stays planted.
> 
> I done some braking tests. I could stop 75 feet quicker with my hitch than without at 65mph to zero.
> 
> If you have a tire blowout in a curve your control over your trailer would be enhanced much more with my hitch than without.
> 
> I know we have engineers here on this forum.
> 
> All of the problems of towing have been solved with my hitch. I can set here all day and tell you this.. And knowone will ever believe it. Thats ok. But there has been some men out there that have solved the towing dilema of using any size vehicle with any size trailer. In time we will use these devices and they will become second nature to us just like what we have now.
> 
> I could tow that heavy 41 foot park model with my 1/2 ton using my hitch if I wanted. I could run highway speeds and be just as safe or safer than my dually without my hitch.
> 
> Yes it works that good. What I done totally changes towing in every aspect of towing laws we know today.
> 
> All of your concerns have been addressed Nathan and these hitches change all of your concerns to total positives.
> 
> If your intersted I can bring you my hitch.
> You find us an F150. We will go hook up to Deans Sydney and it will tow better than than what his super duty tows now.
> 
> As far as power, Im not changing power here. But Im changing every other towing law. I am in Indiana every week. It wouldnt be a big deal at all to take a day off and swing up and spend a day with you and dean showing what I have done.
> 
> Carey


My bad, I was just thinking along the lines of the pivot point projection designs.

Carey, you're right that your hitch is changing the situation yet again. It alleviates the GVWR restriction. There's still that nagging GCWR, but I realize that with proper brakes setup, you should be ok on most things (There's still transmission durability, but as long as you don't try to claim the failure under warranty, I'm ok with it!







)

I'd love to play with the hitch and I know where I can get F150's, but I'd get fired if I towed anything with one







(one word: liability







).

Of course DW has the Flex, and then that should be able to tow an OB, but the reprocussions from that would be worse than borrowing a company vehicle...









Nahh, better not even think about that...








[/quote]

We will go rent one if you cant get one. I will take the responibility of the vehicle.

Im not saying we can go over GCVW. But if a vehicle is towing using a hitch like mine, GVW is no longer an issue.

To make a point to you guys we can go over the GCVW and tow a sydnwy with a 1/2 ton for a short time.

What my hitch does is allow a vehicle to tow right up to its GCVW and do it totally safely. GVW is thrown out the window.. GVW means nothing anymore.

Carey


----------



## Scooter

I may have missed something in the posts here but is this new hitch everyone keeps referring to the

ProPride

And is the Sean one reviewer mentions in his customer review the same Sean Woodruff commenting in this posting?

Never mind answered my own question Sean is mentioned on ProPrides home page.

ProPride Home page


----------



## Nathan

Scooter said:


> I may have missed something in the posts here but is this new hitch everyone keeps referring to the
> 
> ProPride
> 
> And is the Sean one reviewer mentions in his customer review the same Sean Woodruff commenting in this posting?


I know that Sean Woodruff has some limitations on commenting on certain aspects due to his current affiliation with Propride and past affiliations with the other guys







. However, The Propride is very similar to the more well known Hensley Arrow. They both use the same physics principles, and were invented by the same man. That hitch moves the pivot point forward and by most testimonials, significantly improves the towing characteristics of a vehicle.

Now Carey and I are discussing his hitch design which he can describe better, but it supports the tounge and adds lateral stability to the tow vehicle by taking the forces the traler would otherwise put on the hitch.


----------



## Scooter

Hi Nathan , 
Thanks for the quick response and getting me back up to speed with the conversation of this thread.


----------



## Carey

Seans hitch creates this same effect as what this truck has using the physics of his design.

My hitch actually turns a bumper pull trailer into the same hitching idea shown for the 2nd trailer.










Carey


----------



## clarkely

Scooter said:


> I may have missed something in the posts here but is this new hitch everyone keeps referring to the
> 
> ProPride
> 
> And is the Sean one reviewer mentions in his customer review the same Sean Woodruff commenting in this posting?
> 
> Never mind answered my own question Sean is mentioned on ProPrides home page.
> 
> ProPride Home page


Yes ProPride is Sean's company......... so he won't say much .....as to adhere to the forum rules.
He used to be affiliated with Hensley Hitch, the other one Pullrite is not as portable to move from TV to TV.

I will let you do the research on them...........the other hitch Carey refers to is not currently available.........there were a couple Manufacturers of similar set up's .......i was looking at them ........... Video showing it


----------



## Nathan

Scooter said:


> Hi Nathan ,
> Thanks for the quick response and getting me back up to speed with the conversation of this thread.


No problem. Here's a link to Carey's hitch for anyone new who isn't up on it:
Hitch Hog reveiw thread


----------



## Carey

Nathan said:


> Hi Nathan ,
> Thanks for the quick response and getting me back up to speed with the conversation of this thread.


No problem. Here's a link to Carey's hitch for anyone new who isn't up on it:
Hitch Hog reveiw thread
[/quote]

And Robert is still using it on every trip.. Has sent me numerous pms saying how well it works.

Is his Expedition over GCVW? No... Can it tow his trailer safely in every condition? No.

Can his Expedition tow his trailer safely in any condition using the idea Ive made? Yes.

My idea isnt the only one that has overcome the problems we now encounter while towing. I may never market my idea, but soon we will see more and more of these ideas coming to the surface. We will be forced to implement these ideas with the shrinking of our tow vehicles.

Here is another way I used my hitch idea. click

click

The guy using this on his 5er lives in Las Cruces and travels all over the southwest doing crawling events. has put many 1000's of miles on my hitch. He loves it!

We will see more and more of these ideas shortly.

Yes towing with short wheelbase vehicles is totally new to us.

Fact is people are doing it more and more everyday. You cant fight the changes we are begining to see.

We only can invent ways of making the short wheelbase vehicle a viable and safe platform to tow with..

I for one have done it.. Yea prolly what I have done will never make it to the market, but I guarantee you what I have done is making people think about new ways of towing. Thats was my point to begin with. I am begining to get emails and phone calls from the many 1000's of views from my videos, so i know people are thinking. I shut the website down because everyone wanted to buy it, but Im too broke to even think about bringing it to market.

It just so happened when I put the idea out there looking for an investor the economy crashed to the floor.. Oh well.

People need to be open minded to what Sean is doing and the idea that I had and wanted all the world to see.

Yes this stuff is expensive because of all the outside forces against it..

There are those who love to be part of change and thats why Sean will do well with his hitch.

Carey


----------



## Sean Woodruff

Another example of effective pivot point location...


----------



## BoaterDan

Sean Woodruff said:


> I've also worried that too many people try to correct a setup that is inherently unable to be made safe (significantly over tow vehicle rating, for example) by throwing a pivot point hitch on and solving the sway problem and thereby masking the other ones. Add to that the reality that a good portion of the fans of these hitches are kool-aid drinkers who came from horribly unsafe configurations and make the most outrageous and ridiculous claims about how their hitch will solve world hunger. (No offense intended Sean, that's just the experience I've had.)


None taken. I've read this argument many times and it never has made sense to me. A trailer, by design, is unstable. ANY time you bring the tongue jack off the ground you have to add something to make it stable enough for it to roll down the road. The question becomes to what degree of stability do you take the unstable trailer. The argument of solving a sway problem and masking other problems isn't logical. If a problem is solved, there is not a "masked" problem.

[/quote]

I'm talking specifically about a case where you try to tow a long heavy trailer with a vehicle not quite up to the task in a variety of ways. You've got numerous problems including lots of sway. You throw on the ProPride hitch and because your towing experience is improved dramatically you're satisfied that you're now safe. I've personally met them, and this psychological effect concerns me. Also, I've found that , as with anything, you spend $3,000 on something and your brain starts finding ways to justify it that don't necessarily make sense. Frankly, it's unfortunate for you because the ridiculous arguments take away from the really good ones.

In the end it's all about risk assessment. I'm no longer skeptical that your hitch is better than a traditional one. But if I really want to be safe I never put a wheel on any freeway in any vehicle, or even let my teenager get behind the wheel of a car at all for that matter.

So, we're constantly making judgments about whether such-and-such an action is too risky, or whether the reduced risk obtained by spending X is worth it. It sounds laughable on the one hand to say there's such an equation that should be used regarding your family's lives, but my point is we subconsciously make that exact calculation a hundred times a minute while driving, and in a bigger sense any time we choose a particular vehicle, road, speed, trailer, child seat, etc. etc.

For me, since my experience seems SO stable and just like described by Hensley/ProPride owners (namely, no sway and whole rig moving as one in crosswind or semi wave), I just can't make the math work to justify it.


----------



## N7OQ

BoaterDan said:


> I've also worried that too many people try to correct a setup that is inherently unable to be made safe (significantly over tow vehicle rating, for example) by throwing a pivot point hitch on and solving the sway problem and thereby masking the other ones. Add to that the reality that a good portion of the fans of these hitches are kool-aid drinkers who came from horribly unsafe configurations and make the most outrageous and ridiculous claims about how their hitch will solve world hunger. (No offense intended Sean, that's just the experience I've had.)


None taken. I've read this argument many times and it never has made sense to me. A trailer, by design, is unstable. ANY time you bring the tongue jack off the ground you have to add something to make it stable enough for it to roll down the road. The question becomes to what degree of stability do you take the unstable trailer. The argument of solving a sway problem and masking other problems isn't logical. If a problem is solved, there is not a "masked" problem.

[/quote]

I'm talking specifically about a case where you try to tow a long heavy trailer with a vehicle not quite up to the task in a variety of ways. You've got numerous problems including lots of sway. You throw on the ProPride hitch and because your towing experience is improved dramatically you're satisfied that you're now safe. I've personally met them, and this psychological effect concerns me. Also, I've found that , as with anything, you spend $3,000 on something and your brain starts finding ways to justify it that don't necessarily make sense. Frankly, it's unfortunate for you because the ridiculous arguments take away from the really good ones.

In the end it's all about risk assessment. I'm no longer skeptical that your hitch is better than a traditional one. But if I really want to be safe I never put a wheel on any freeway in any vehicle, or even let my teenager get behind the wheel of a car at all for that matter.

So, we're constantly making judgments about whether such-and-such an action is too risky, or whether the reduced risk obtained by spending X is worth it. It sounds laughable on the one hand to say there's such an equation that should be used regarding your family's lives, but my point is we subconsciously make that exact calculation a hundred times a minute while driving, and in a bigger sense any time we choose a particular vehicle, road, speed, trailer, child seat, etc. etc.

For me, since my experience seems SO stable and just like described by Hensley/ProPride owners (namely, no sway and whole rig moving as one in crosswind or semi wave), I just can't make the math work to justify it.
[/quote]

Very well said and exactly what I'm trying to say.


----------



## N7OQ

I believe that there is only one hitch I have seen so far that will actually make a marginal TV safer and that is the Hitch Hog and anything else only masks the problems since the weight and all the forces are still on the trailer plus with a Hensley you add 200lbs to the already marginal TV.


----------



## Carey

N7OQ said:


> I've also worried that too many people try to correct a setup that is inherently unable to be made safe (significantly over tow vehicle rating, for example) by throwing a pivot point hitch on and solving the sway problem and thereby masking the other ones. Add to that the reality that a good portion of the fans of these hitches are kool-aid drinkers who came from horribly unsafe configurations and make the most outrageous and ridiculous claims about how their hitch will solve world hunger. (No offense intended Sean, that's just the experience I've had.)


None taken. I've read this argument many times and it never has made sense to me. A trailer, by design, is unstable. ANY time you bring the tongue jack off the ground you have to add something to make it stable enough for it to roll down the road. The question becomes to what degree of stability do you take the unstable trailer. The argument of solving a sway problem and masking other problems isn't logical. If a problem is solved, there is not a "masked" problem.

[/quote]

I'm talking specifically about a case where you try to tow a long heavy trailer with a vehicle not quite up to the task in a variety of ways. You've got numerous problems including lots of sway. You throw on the ProPride hitch and because your towing experience is improved dramatically you're satisfied that you're now safe. I've personally met them, and this psychological effect concerns me. Also, I've found that , as with anything, you spend $3,000 on something and your brain starts finding ways to justify it that don't necessarily make sense. Frankly, it's unfortunate for you because the ridiculous arguments take away from the really good ones.

In the end it's all about risk assessment. I'm no longer skeptical that your hitch is better than a traditional one. But if I really want to be safe I never put a wheel on any freeway in any vehicle, or even let my teenager get behind the wheel of a car at all for that matter.

So, we're constantly making judgments about whether such-and-such an action is too risky, or whether the reduced risk obtained by spending X is worth it. It sounds laughable on the one hand to say there's such an equation that should be used regarding your family's lives, but my point is we subconsciously make that exact calculation a hundred times a minute while driving, and in a bigger sense any time we choose a particular vehicle, road, speed, trailer, child seat, etc. etc.

For me, since my experience seems SO stable and just like described by Hensley/ProPride owners (namely, no sway and whole rig moving as one in crosswind or semi wave), I just can't make the math work to justify it.
[/quote]

Very well said and exactly what I'm trying to say.
[/quote]

And theres not a single thing wrong with your opinion. And still, for the majorty most are perfectly fine with the standard w/d hitch.

But we are quickly going into a time where the auto mfr's are gonna be forced to shrink our engines and vehicles to meet new fuel mileage standards and smog regs.

People are still going to want and enjoy there larger trailers. In this time we all will have a need for new hitching and towing ideas that we are seeing now. I feel we will see many new ideas, and we all are gonna need to be on our toes and be careful when trying them. Reason is we are dealing with human life here and mistakes just dont cost us, they can kill us when it comes to towing safely.

Being that there have been some guys build a better and safer hitching idea now, is great thing and can give us hope that we will be able to have our smaller vehicles and still keep our nicely sized trailers to tow behind them.

This has been a great discussion. Its great that the majority of this entire forum is open minded enough that we all can discuss such in depth subjects without having an inferno..

Again as I have said before this is my favorite forum and I just wanted to say Thank You all for allowing me to add my thoughts without worry of being flamed out of here.

Carey


----------



## battalionchief3

I dont think they ( the big 3 ) would ever stop making full size diesel trucks in this country, too many jobs require them. Jobs like landscaping, construction and hauling companys need them. I can see them dumping the suburban, expedition types and maybe even the tahoe and trailblazer type suv's. Hopefully we will be safe to pull campers since the trucks hopefully wont go away.


----------



## Sean Woodruff

N7OQ said:


> I believe that there is only one hitch I have seen so far that will actually make a marginal TV safer and that is the Hitch Hog and anything else only masks the problems since the weight and all the forces are still on the trailer plus with a Hensley you add 200lbs to the already marginal TV.


I believe differently but I have only sold 12,000+ of them, on all sizes of tow vehicle (including cars), without one of them ever being involved in a sway accident so I'm a "bit" biased.


----------



## Carey

battalionchief3 said:


> I dont think they ( the big 3 ) would ever stop making full size diesel trucks in this country, too many jobs require them. Jobs like landscaping, construction and hauling companys need them. I can see them dumping the suburban, expedition types and maybe even the tahoe and trailblazer type suv's. Hopefully we will be safe to pull campers since the trucks hopefully wont go away.


I agree, but the problem is they are expensive, and in the past many people would choose the full size suv and use them for there tow vehicles.

Those vehicles are quickly going away. So we are begining to see people towing the same size trailers that they used with the big suv with smaller and shorter wheelbase vehicles. We are seeing more and more of these combinations everyday.

Its not the pickups that we see crash and kill people when towing.. Its the smaller vehicles doing the crashing. Pickups are only going to rise in price and when the economy is poor, people will take more chances with there smaller vehicles and try to tow those bigger trailers.

If the big suv is no longer available people will use the smaller ones and try to do the same job as they done with the bigger ones. It will be this way wheather the economy is rich or poor.

I have seen a ton of smaller vehicles like Honda Ridgelines, Touregs, Durangos and Cherokees, and even Pathfinders and Four runners towing trailers bigger than 25 feet this year. We will be seeing more and more of this. All of these people should be using new hitching ideas. There is presently nothing that can truely help these vehicles handle these larger trailer in the mass market.

Carey


----------



## Carey

Sean Woodruff said:


> I believe that there is only one hitch I have seen so far that will actually make a marginal TV safer and that is the Hitch Hog and anything else only masks the problems since the weight and all the forces are still on the trailer plus with a Hensley you add 200lbs to the already marginal TV.


I believe differently but I have only sold 12,000+ of them, on all sizes of tow vehicle (including cars), without one of them ever being involved in a sway accident so I'm a "bit" biased.









View attachment 83


View attachment 84

[/quote]

No need to be biased Sean.. I fully believe your hitch is a great one!

Carey


----------



## TwoElkhounds

I spent an hour repsondeing to this whole post. I hit the button and it appears my entire response is lost, unfortunately, I do not have to to redo.

Maybe this is a good thing.

DAN


----------



## Nathan

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> ...
> But we are quickly going into a time where the auto mfr's are gonna be forced to shrink our engines and vehicles to meet new fuel mileage standards and smog regs.
> ...


QFT. (thanks curtis for the new one







)

Over 8500 are still safe from the harsh regs, so you can still get a Super Duty.


----------



## BoaterDan

The talk of the end of large SUVs is exactly in line with my point. What you suggest (if it comes true, but that's another discussion) is that we'll have lighter, shorter and less powerful vehicles towing the same big heavy trailers.

Sean and Carey, I understand what you're saying about the sway problem being eliminated not masked, but that doesn't change the other factors, like:

- A 9,000 pound trailer pushing a short 2,500 pound TV with 5k tow rating down a hill (where previously it might have been a 6,000 pound TV)
- People only able to get up to 40 mph by the end of freeway entrance ramps

My point has been, today the person in that lesser vehicle that has eliminated their horrible sway thinks they're all good, and these other issues never cross 90% of their minds until they're in or cause an accident. Exactly the phenomenon you say you hear all the time regarding sway itself. So, in those cases the hitch has in a way encouraged people to stay in unsafe configurations.

I'm not at all even hinting that these hitches are bad things. But marketing or testimony statements that approach "the right hitch can allow any TV to pull any trailer safely" are bad things.


----------



## TwoElkhounds

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> As far as the weight, With the hitch I designed there is no longer any weight on the tow vehicle. So tires and gears in the whole driveline run way cooler. I never done a scientific temp test, but the rear diff would get so hot I couldnt touch it without my hitch and the rear diff would be so cool I could lay my hand on it all day with my hitch.


Sorry Carey, but this statement is essentially equivalent to a perpetual motion machine. A hitch is a passive device, it imparts no energy into the system. The tow vehicle must supply all the energy to accelerate and deccelerate the trailer. No matter what hitch you use, the energy required by the drive train to accelerate the trailer will be essentially the same (apart from small variances in frictional losses). The energy required by the tow vehicle brakes to stop the combo will be the same. A by-product of this energy is heat which cannot be materially impacted simply by changing the type of hitch. A simple conservation of energy calculation.

For all those who swear by these pivot point hitches, consider the following. Two years ago I was travelling through Kentucky and Pennsylvania. My trailer brakes began to fail intermmitently. Eventually, the trailer brakes completely failed. I troubleshooted the problem, but could not find the cause (it eventually ended up being a short in one of the drum brakes, very difficult to find). So there I am, almost 1000 miles from home with no trailer brakes. To get home I have to cross over several mountain passes. Luckily, I had enough truck to make the trip carefully home. Had I been towing a 6000 lb trailer with a 2000 lb car, I think the situation would have been much different. Worse case scenario, the brakes could have failed on a 8% grade and the 6000 lb trailer would be pushing the 2000 lb car down the hill. The hitch isn't going to help much in this situation.

DAN


----------



## PDX_Doug

Sheesh! Maybe I'll just go back to a tent!
Either that or a dually pulling a fifth wheel (would that solve my pivot point inadequacies?)

Hmm... I wonder which I'd be happier with...









Happy Trails,
Doug


----------



## KosinTrouble

PDX_Doug said:


> Sheesh! Maybe I'll just go back to a tent!
> Either that or a dually pulling a fifth wheel (would that solve my pivot point inadequacies?)
> 
> Hmm... I wonder which I'd be happier with...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Happy Trails,
> Doug


I vote dually pulling a fifth wheel!!!!

Kos


----------



## Nathan

TwoElkhounds said:


> As far as the weight, With the hitch I designed there is no longer any weight on the tow vehicle. So tires and gears in the whole driveline run way cooler. I never done a scientific temp test, but the rear diff would get so hot I couldnt touch it without my hitch and the rear diff would be so cool I could lay my hand on it all day with my hitch.


Sorry Carey, but this statement is essentially equivalent to a perpetual motion machine. A hitch is a passive device, it imparts no energy into the system. The tow vehicle must supply all the energy to accelerate and deccelerate the trailer. No matter what hitch you use, the energy required by the drive train to accelerate the trailer will be essentially the same (apart from small variances in frictional losses). The energy required by the tow vehicle brakes to stop the combo will be the same. A by-product of this energy is heat which cannot be materially impacted simply by changing the type of hitch. A simple conservation of energy calculation.

For all those who swear by these pivot point hitches, consider the following. Two years ago I was travelling through Kentucky and Pennsylvania. My trailer brakes began to fail intermmitently. Eventually, the trailer brakes completely failed. I troubleshooted the problem, but could not find the cause (it eventually ended up being a short in one of the drum brakes, very difficult to find). So there I am, almost 1000 miles from home with no trailer brakes. To get home I have to cross over several mountain passes. Luckily, I had enough truck to make the trip carefully home. Had I been towing a 6000 lb trailer with a 2000 lb car, I think the situation would have been much different. Worse case scenario, the brakes could have failed on a 8% grade and the 6000 lb trailer would be pushing the 2000 lb car down the hill. The hitch isn't going to help much in this situation.

DAN
[/quote]

Dan,

Carey's hitch is self-supporting, so it carries the load of the tounge weight. This reduces the vertical load on the rear axle and allows it to run cooler. No perpetual motion needed. (Again, it also doesn't fix the GCWR issue)

This is not true of the pivot point projection hitches. For those you still need to worry about the GVWR.

Now: 
BoaterDan,

I'm suspecting you will see more lightweight trailers out there if the market continues in this direction. However, most of the trailer is air, so if you can get a 30' lightweight trailer to tow well, then why not.








There are several manufacturers that advertise 30'ers at or below 5000 lbs. That's with current technology. Now future in some improvements and you could concievably have a 6000 lb fully loaded TT that's 30' long and could be pulled with a crossover that's rated for 6000-7000 lbs. If the crossover has some technology (Diesel or Turbocharged gas), it could pull it as well as today's small block V8 (or yesterday's big block V8). Power and weight are relatively easily solved. I really beleive that vehicle handling and stability are the tougher nuts to crack.


----------



## Sean Woodruff

TwoElkhounds said:


> Sheesh! Maybe I'll just go back to a tent!
> Either that or a dually pulling a fifth wheel (would that solve my pivot point inadequacies?)
> 
> Hmm... I wonder which I'd be happier with...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Happy Trails,
> Doug


I can tell you what you would be happier with...


----------



## Nathan

PDX_Doug said:


> Sheesh! Maybe I'll just go back to a tent!
> Either that or a dually pulling a fifth wheel (would that solve my pivot point inadequacies?)
> 
> Hmm... I wonder which I'd be happier with...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Happy Trails,
> Doug


Hmm, a 30' trailer and a 1 ton Diesel to pull it. You don't have many inadequacies left, but why not, that 40' 5'er and going to a DRW will really seal the deal!


----------



## Sean Woodruff

Nathan said:


> You don't have many inadequacies left, but why not, that 40' 5'er and going to a DRW will really seal the deal!


Then we'd have to start into a discussion about 5th wheel weight distribution. Hmmm... why is it that a 5th wheel pin weight can sit directly on the rear axle, and unload the front axle, without anyone worrying about weight distribution... oh, never mind... that's a whole 'nother can o' worms.


----------



## TwoElkhounds

Nathan said:


> As far as the weight, With the hitch I designed there is no longer any weight on the tow vehicle. So tires and gears in the whole driveline run way cooler. I never done a scientific temp test, but the rear diff would get so hot I couldnt touch it without my hitch and the rear diff would be so cool I could lay my hand on it all day with my hitch.


Sorry Carey, but this statement is essentially equivalent to a perpetual motion machine. A hitch is a passive device, it imparts no energy into the system. The tow vehicle must supply all the energy to accelerate and deccelerate the trailer. No matter what hitch you use, the energy required by the drive train to accelerate the trailer will be essentially the same (apart from small variances in frictional losses). The energy required by the tow vehicle brakes to stop the combo will be the same. A by-product of this energy is heat which cannot be materially impacted simply by changing the type of hitch. A simple conservation of energy calculation.

For all those who swear by these pivot point hitches, consider the following. Two years ago I was travelling through Kentucky and Pennsylvania. My trailer brakes began to fail intermmitently. Eventually, the trailer brakes completely failed. I troubleshooted the problem, but could not find the cause (it eventually ended up being a short in one of the drum brakes, very difficult to find). So there I am, almost 1000 miles from home with no trailer brakes. To get home I have to cross over several mountain passes. Luckily, I had enough truck to make the trip carefully home. Had I been towing a 6000 lb trailer with a 2000 lb car, I think the situation would have been much different. Worse case scenario, the brakes could have failed on a 8% grade and the 6000 lb trailer would be pushing the 2000 lb car down the hill. The hitch isn't going to help much in this situation.

DAN
[/quote]

Dan,

Carey's hitch is self-supporting, so it carries the load of the tounge weight. This reduces the vertical load on the rear axle and allows it to run cooler. No perpetual motion needed. (Again, it also doesn't fix the GCWR issue)

This is not true of the pivot point projection hitches. For those you still need to worry about the GVWR.

Now: 
BoaterDan,

I'm suspecting you will see more lightweight trailers out there if the market continues in this direction. However, most of the trailer is air, so if you can get a 30' lightweight trailer to tow well, then why not.








There are several manufacturers that advertise 30'ers at or below 5000 lbs. That's with current technology. Now future in some improvements and you could concievably have a 6000 lb fully loaded TT that's 30' long and could be pulled with a crossover that's rated for 6000-7000 lbs. If the crossover has some technology (Diesel or Turbocharged gas), it could pull it as well as today's small block V8 (or yesterday's big block V8). Power and weight are relatively easily solved. I really beleive that vehicle handling and stability are the tougher nuts to crack.
[/quote]

I understand that the load on the rear axle is reduced and there is some benefit. Tires and bearings may run cooler. However, it seems to me that a majority of the energy and heat in the drive train and braking is due to the energy required to move and stop the mass of the TV and trailer. I am very skeptical that these components are "way cooler" simply due to the type of hitch.

DAN


----------



## clarkely

TwoElkhounds said:


> For all those who swear by these pivot point hitches, consider the following. Two years ago I was travelling through Kentucky and Pennsylvania. My trailer brakes began to fail intermmitently. Eventually, the trailer brakes completely failed. I troubleshooted the problem, but could not find the cause (it eventually ended up being a short in one of the drum brakes, very difficult to find). So there I am, almost 1000 miles from home with no trailer brakes. To get home I have to cross over several mountain passes. Luckily, I had enough truck to make the trip carefully home. Had I been towing a 6000 lb trailer with a 2000 lb car, I think the situation would have been much different. Worse case scenario, the brakes could have failed on a 8% grade and the 6000 lb trailer would be pushing the 2000 lb car down the hill. The hitch isn't going to help much in this situation.
> 
> DAN


No offense but there is no way i would travel up and down hills that far with no trailer brakes with a 6000lb tv and a 6000 lb trailer................It simply is unsafe, I would suggest the better scenario there would have been to get to the nearest garage and get it all addressed and fixed or hotel and not take a risk getting home.

I do not mean to pee in your corn flakes (joking trying to keep it light)........but the TV are sized to stop the TV and its GVWR nothing else, the TT brakes are sized to stop itself only.......

I do not swear by them....... I swear by them for large TT to TV ratio's .........and again just my opinion...........


----------



## Carey

TwoElkhounds said:


> As far as the weight, With the hitch I designed there is no longer any weight on the tow vehicle. So tires and gears in the whole driveline run way cooler. I never done a scientific temp test, but the rear diff would get so hot I couldnt touch it without my hitch and the rear diff would be so cool I could lay my hand on it all day with my hitch.


Sorry Carey, but this statement is essentially equivalent to a perpetual motion machine. A hitch is a passive device, it imparts no energy into the system. The tow vehicle must supply all the energy to accelerate and deccelerate the trailer. No matter what hitch you use, the energy required by the drive train to accelerate the trailer will be essentially the same (apart from small variances in frictional losses). The energy required by the tow vehicle brakes to stop the combo will be the same. A by-product of this energy is heat which cannot be materially impacted simply by changing the type of hitch. A simple conservation of energy calculation.

For all those who swear by these pivot point hitches, consider the following. Two years ago I was travelling through Kentucky and Pennsylvania. My trailer brakes began to fail intermmitently. Eventually, the trailer brakes completely failed. I troubleshooted the problem, but could not find the cause (it eventually ended up being a short in one of the drum brakes, very difficult to find). So there I am, almost 1000 miles from home with no trailer brakes. To get home I have to cross over several mountain passes. Luckily, I had enough truck to make the trip carefully home. Had I been towing a 6000 lb trailer with a 2000 lb car, I think the situation would have been much different. Worse case scenario, the brakes could have failed on a 8% grade and the 6000 lb trailer would be pushing the 2000 lb car down the hill. The hitch isn't going to help much in this situation.

DAN
[/quote]

When a rear diff no longer has weight placed on the differential itself from the down pressure of a tongue weight the differential will run much cooler. People have a very hard time understanding that.

The diff will only know the weight as weight thru the differentail. My hitch supports all the extra weight of the tongue. When you minus the down weight on the wheel bearings the diff will run MUCH cooler.

One reason a semi is able to gross 110,000lbs when pulling triples is only 20,000lbs are placed on the single drive axle. The rest of the weight is just being pulled against the diff gears.

Same idea with my hitch. The weight of the combo is only pulled against the diff gears and since there is no down pressure apllied from tongue weight the diff will run incredibly cooler.

Hopefully this makes since, as I am trying to write several scenarios here.

On the brakes. On our present tow systems when in a panic stop you loose front braking as the trailer will nose will dive and apply an overage of weight to the rear axle on the tv and remove weight from the tv front axle.. When using my hitch the weight of the tongue rides on my hitch allowing the nose of the car to dive down just like it does with no trailer. When the car dives in a panic stop it instantly transfers weight to the front axle which is the axle that gives us the most braking power.

So yes it uses the same braking power as without my hitch, but the braking power is able to be transferred to the correct axle just like when the vehicle has when empty.

This makes stopping a whole new experience when using my hitch. The gains just from the braking when using my hitch could be used as the only reason for using a device like this, let alone all the other qualities a device like this can do for you.

To some of the other posters here. I did not invent a device so a person could tow a 10000lb trailer with a vehicle that has a 5000lb tow capability.

In the future we will see small suvs with 6-8000lb tow capacities, Not the 8-10000lb tow capacities that we see in the full size suvs of today.

You goota remember that rv weights are shrinking too.. NOT the size, only the weight.

We will see 30 foot trailers that weigh 5-6000lbs very soon. A person with a vehicle like a Toureg will see there tow rating of 7700lbs and then look at that 30 footer with a empty weight of 6000lb and hook that baby up and go camping. Because of the 30 foot length and the short wheelbase of the Toureg, people are gonna be more open minded to alternate hitching ideas.

Seans hitch and hitches like i designed can fix and not mask the problem of the long trailer short wheelbase issue. You gotta remember that Seans and decices like mine dont mask anything. they greatly improve the safety and stability of the entire combination.

I totally understand all of your concerns guys, but we are quickly entering a time of shrinking in all of the automotive/rv industry. In this time we will go thru some pains and see new ideas that will be able to keep the safety level at the very top of the pile.

Few people can see what some of us are doing right now, but in time it will sink in and become more everyday.

Carey


----------



## clarkely

No offense to anyone.......... I have had two blow outs, two different times on a 24 foot dual axle snowmobile trailer loaded up that probably weighs better than 5-6000 lbs with all the gear in it.........never felt either one..............luckily fellow motorist told us...........

I immediately got a tire pressure monitoring device.

With my Springdale 298bhlghl (previous trailer) i had sporadically encountered some minor sway, nothing bad but .........bad gusts on high bridges between mountains







........I started looking at what the most advanced Anti Sway Devices were available on the market.......I looked at Hitch Buddy (similar to Hitch hog), Hitch Hog, Hensley, pullrite, and ProPride...........i figured i spend that much money on a guy trips snowmobiling to Quebec........wouldn't it be better spent knowing i took every proactive measure possible........plus i was doing a long trip 2300 miles round trip....so i figured i would get it and if i did not like i would sell it.............well i tried and i liked







.

I look at it all like everything else...............until you towed with a good stiff sidewall tire..........you don't appreciate the difference it makes Or vice versa.

Same is true of adjustable air bags and being able to adjust to conditions on the fly............same as a 1/2 ton to a 3/4 ton, gas to diesel, 3/4 to one ton, single to dually..........

Best assessments come through experience and trying different things.............I am sure these hitches are not needed for everyone and i know they are not necessary for everyone's set up....but as the TT to TV ratio gets larger..........they certainly are worth considering

My 2 cents


----------



## Carey

Nathan said:


> As far as the weight, With the hitch I designed there is no longer any weight on the tow vehicle. So tires and gears in the whole driveline run way cooler. I never done a scientific temp test, but the rear diff would get so hot I couldnt touch it without my hitch and the rear diff would be so cool I could lay my hand on it all day with my hitch.


Sorry Carey, but this statement is essentially equivalent to a perpetual motion machine. A hitch is a passive device, it imparts no energy into the system. The tow vehicle must supply all the energy to accelerate and deccelerate the trailer. No matter what hitch you use, the energy required by the drive train to accelerate the trailer will be essentially the same (apart from small variances in frictional losses). The energy required by the tow vehicle brakes to stop the combo will be the same. A by-product of this energy is heat which cannot be materially impacted simply by changing the type of hitch. A simple conservation of energy calculation.

For all those who swear by these pivot point hitches, consider the following. Two years ago I was travelling through Kentucky and Pennsylvania. My trailer brakes began to fail intermmitently. Eventually, the trailer brakes completely failed. I troubleshooted the problem, but could not find the cause (it eventually ended up being a short in one of the drum brakes, very difficult to find). So there I am, almost 1000 miles from home with no trailer brakes. To get home I have to cross over several mountain passes. Luckily, I had enough truck to make the trip carefully home. Had I been towing a 6000 lb trailer with a 2000 lb car, I think the situation would have been much different. Worse case scenario, the brakes could have failed on a 8% grade and the 6000 lb trailer would be pushing the 2000 lb car down the hill. The hitch isn't going to help much in this situation.

DAN
[/quote]

Dan,

Carey's hitch is self-supporting, so it carries the load of the tounge weight. This reduces the vertical load on the rear axle and allows it to run cooler. No perpetual motion needed. (Again, it also doesn't fix the GCWR issue)

This is not true of the pivot point projection hitches. For those you still need to worry about the GVWR.

Now: 
BoaterDan,

I'm suspecting you will see more lightweight trailers out there if the market continues in this direction. However, most of the trailer is air, so if you can get a 30' lightweight trailer to tow well, then why not.








There are several manufacturers that advertise 30'ers at or below 5000 lbs. That's with current technology. Now future in some improvements and you could concievably have a 6000 lb fully loaded TT that's 30' long and could be pulled with a crossover that's rated for 6000-7000 lbs. If the crossover has some technology (Diesel or Turbocharged gas), it could pull it as well as today's small block V8 (or yesterday's big block V8). Power and weight are relatively easily solved. I really beleive that vehicle handling and stability are the tougher nuts to crack.
[/quote]

Nathan you read my mind, lol

Carey


----------



## Carey

clarkely said:


> No offense to anyone.......... I have had two blow outs, two different times on a 24 foot dual axle snowmobile trailer loaded up that probably weighs better than 5-6000 lbs with all the gear in it.........never felt either one..............luckily fellow motorist told us...........
> 
> I immediately got a tire pressure monitoring device.
> 
> With my Springdale 298bhlghl (previous trailer) i had sporadically encountered some minor sway, nothing bad but .........bad gusts on high bridges between mountains
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ........I started looking at what the most advanced Anti Sway Devices were available on the market.......I looked at Hitch Buddy (similar to Hitch hog), Hitch Hog, Hensley, pullrite, and ProPride...........i figured i spend that much money on a guy trips snowmobiling to Quebec........wouldn't it be better spent knowing i took every proactive measure possible........plus i was doing a long trip 2300 miles round trip....so i figured i would get it and if i did not like i would sell it.............well i tried and i liked
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I look at it all like everything else...............until you towed with a good stiff sidewall tire..........you don't appreciate the difference it makes Or vice versa.
> 
> Same is true of adjustable air bags and being able to adjust to conditions on the fly............same as a 1/2 ton to a 3/4 ton, gas to diesel, 3/4 to one ton, single to dually..........
> 
> Best assessments come through experience and trying different things.............I am sure these hitches are not needed for everyone and i know they are not necessary for everyone's set up....but as the TT to TV ratio gets larger..........they certainly are worth considering
> 
> My 2 cents


And your exactly right on Clarkey... If your trailer is balanced well and you have the vehicle that is overboard you are not gonna see many of these issues.

But in the future we are gonna see more and more vehicles and rv combos that are questionable and with these combos will see more devices to make them once again as safe as we have today with the large tow vehicles.

All of us are seeing more and more small vehicles pulling large trailers all ready.

Carey


----------



## tdvffjohn

http://www.outbackers.com/forums/index.php...c=20012&hl=

Seans hitch is known and easy to find out info. The hitch Carey designed is different and the concept is really interesting. Here is a link to a thread where everyone can see for themselves.

John


----------



## Nathan

Sean Woodruff said:


> You don't have many inadequacies left, but why not, that 40' 5'er and going to a DRW will really seal the deal!


Then we'd have to start into a discussion about 5th wheel weight distribution. Hmmm... why is it that a 5th wheel pin weight can sit directly on the rear axle, and unload the front axle, without anyone worrying about weight distribution... oh, never mind... that's a whole 'nother can o' worms.








[/quote]
Well, acutally a few inches forward of the rear axle. Ford specifies a minimum of 2" forward of the rear axle.









Furthermore the pickups are designed for the heavy loading centered in their bed (just like a 5'er does) and are tested at those limits.


----------



## Sean Woodruff

Nathan said:


> Furthermore the pickups are designed for the heavy loading centered in their bed (just like a 5'er does) and are tested at those limits.


And that doesn't unload the steer axle? Just kidding, I know the answer... I'll stop now.


----------



## Sean Woodruff

Carey,

I can't get my head around the HOG tires "scuffing" in a turn. I know you have addressed this but can you point me to, or explain, how the tires don't skid sideways?


----------



## Carey

Another great point is a semi axle is rated for the tongue weight not the thru weight its pulling.

Many fed ex/ups trucks have just a single drive axle. And that single drive axle has a rating of 23000lbs. The 1st trailer of the 3 trailer combo applies 20000lbs to this single drive axle. The entire vehicle can legally weigh 110,000lbs. This is why 3 trailer combos are so popular with the freight companies.. 80,000 is the legal limit for a single or two trailer combo.

The thru weight that a large truck differential deals with is never an issue to be considered. Its only the down presure aplied to that diff is all anyone is worried about, becasue its the down weight that stresses the bearings and creates all of the hest.

A normal 2 axle drive on a normal semi has 2 20000lb rated axles. The legal limit that can be applied in down force is 34000lbs. So they are good.

Now some guys spec there trucks for heavy duty use and have the 23000lb axles installed which gives them a combo gvw spec of 46000lbs on the set of 2 axles.

Many of these heavy axle trucks are used for heavy haul. The will use sometime 20-30 trailer axles and weigh up to and over 300,000lbs. Only 34000lbs are resting on the 2 drive axles here and the rest of the weight is being applied to all of the trailer axles.

The weight of 300,000lbs is being pulled against the 2 drive axles rated for 46000lbs of down pressure.

This combination can run over a million miles like this.

So when a person is using a hitch that supports all tongue weight such as a hitch like I designed, the diff will almost know the weight going thru it as nothing, much like it does when empty..

Yes this goes against all of your understanding of automotive differentials. But when we factor in what we do in trucking and apply that to automotive many of the same scenarios surface.

Since I am a trucker I only built a hitch that would give me the same effect that I got when driving a semi.

Come to find out its very semi like in every way.

Carey


----------



## CamperAndy

clarkely said:


> I do not mean to pee in your corn flakes (joking trying to keep it light)........but the TV are sized to stop the TV and its GVWR nothing else, the TT brakes are sized to stop itself only.......


They are designed to stop the GVWR, not just itself. Think of a pick up with a big slide in camper.


----------



## Carey

Sean Woodruff said:


> Carey,
> 
> I can't get my head around the HOG tires "scuffing" in a turn. I know you have addressed this but can you point me to, or explain, how the tires don't skid sidways?


I used a toggle switch that would open a air cylinoid and would instantly exhaust all of the air. The air bag would shrink and pull the axle off of the ground and allow tight turning without scuffing the tires. The tires would just touch or be just above the pavement. This would take all the weight off of the tires when turning and not allow scuffing.

I have a video of that, click

My plan was after finding some more money make this an automated system of dumping the air only when making a 90* turn. This could be a simple electronic device that would do this.

Carey


----------



## Sean Woodruff

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Carey,
> 
> I can't get my head around the HOG tires "scuffing" in a turn. I know you have addressed this but can you point me to, or explain, how the tires don't skid sidways?


I used a toggle switch that would open a air cylinoid and would instantly exhaust all of the air. The air bag would shrink and pull the axle off of the ground and allow tight turning without scuffing the tires. The tires would just touch or be just above the pavement. This would take all the weight off of the tires when turning and not allow scuffing.

I have a video of that, click

My plan was after finding some more money make this an automated system of dumping the air only when making a 90* turn. This could be a simple electronic device that would do this.

Carey
[/quote]

Ok, I see. How about unlocking the axle at a certain degree of turn?


----------



## Carey

Sean Woodruff said:


> Carey,
> 
> I can't get my head around the HOG tires "scuffing" in a turn. I know you have addressed this but can you point me to, or explain, how the tires don't skid sidways?


I used a toggle switch that would open a air cylinoid and would instantly exhaust all of the air. The air bag would shrink and pull the axle off of the ground and allow tight turning without scuffing the tires. The tires would just touch or be just above the pavement. This would take all the weight off of the tires when turning and not allow scuffing.

I have a video of that, click

My plan was after finding some more money make this an automated system of dumping the air only when making a 90* turn. This could be a simple electronic device that would do this.

Carey
[/quote]

Ok, I see. How about unlocking the axle at a certain degree of turn?
[/quote]

That would be fine too, but if you look at all other hitch designs like this the tire will end up making contact since in a right turn the tires swing right and when the tongue swings right also, creates a very tight spot to allow the tires to clear the tongue and weight bars.

The trailer toad has this problem. click

Carey


----------



## clarkely

CamperAndy said:


> I do not mean to pee in your corn flakes (joking trying to keep it light)........but the TV are sized to stop the TV and its GVWR nothing else, the TT brakes are sized to stop itself only.......


They are designed to stop the GVWR, not just itself. Think of a pick up with a big slide in camper.
[/quote]

That i what i sated in reference to the TV, i thought i implied that the TT does itself....meaning its GVWR, but neither is designed to stop the other necessarily..................

If i was unclear that is what i meant.


----------



## Carey

You can urn extremely tight with what I designed.



















Carey


----------



## Nathan

Sean Woodruff said:


> Furthermore the pickups are designed for the heavy loading centered in their bed (just like a 5'er does) and are tested at those limits.


And that doesn't unload the steer axle? Just kidding, I know the answer... I'll stop now.
[/quote]
Come on Sean









If it's forward of the rear axles, and there was no suspension, the weight on the front would go up slightly.

Now, it's on a suspension, so it will settle back and unload the front some, but again, as long as the pin weight is applied correctly (i.e. slightly forward of the axle) and is within the limits, it will be no worse than when the truck was tested at GVWR. Will it be worse than unloaded? Maybe.... Will it be how it was designed to work? YES!









Andy's right on the GVWR for braking too. Stay below that and the truck was desinged to stop it. In fact, somewhere I saw a study that checked stopping distance and the 1 ton trucks stopped quicker with a load than without due to the extra weight on them.


----------



## clarkely

Nathan said:


> Stay below that and the truck was desinged to stop it. In fact, somewhere I saw a study that checked stopping distance and the 1 ton trucks stopped quicker with a load than without due to the extra weight on them.


You are correct i saw that study as well............... but when you go over its GVWR it starts to drop off.........The truck is designed to stop itself and GVWR....TT designed to Stop its GVWR..........


----------



## Nathan

clarkely said:


> Stay below that and the truck was desinged to stop it. In fact, somewhere I saw a study that checked stopping distance and the 1 ton trucks stopped quicker with a load than without due to the extra weight on them.


You are correct i saw that study as well............... but when you go over its GVWR it starts to drop off.........The truck is designed to stop itself and GVWR....TT designed to Stop its GVWR..........
[/quote]
100% agree!!!


----------



## CamperAndy

clarkely said:


> I do not mean to pee in your corn flakes (joking trying to keep it light)........but the TV are sized to stop the TV and its GVWR nothing else, the TT brakes are sized to stop itself only.......


They are designed to stop the GVWR, not just itself. Think of a pick up with a big slide in camper.
[/quote]

That i what i sated in reference to the TV, i thought i implied that the TT does itself....meaning its GVWR, but neither is designed to stop the other necessarily..................

If i was unclear that is what i meant.
[/quote]

Actually I think I just muddied the water.


----------



## clarkely

CamperAndy said:


> I do not mean to pee in your corn flakes (joking trying to keep it light)........but the TV are sized to stop the TV and its GVWR nothing else, the TT brakes are sized to stop itself only.......


They are designed to stop the GVWR, not just itself. Think of a pick up with a big slide in camper.
[/quote]

That i what i sated in reference to the TV, i thought i implied that the TT does itself....meaning its GVWR, but neither is designed to stop the other necessarily..................

If i was unclear that is what i meant.
[/quote]

Actually I think I just muddied the water.
[/quote]

Not a Problem







It's all good!!


----------



## TwoElkhounds

clarkely said:


> For all those who swear by these pivot point hitches, consider the following. Two years ago I was travelling through Kentucky and Pennsylvania. My trailer brakes began to fail intermmitently. Eventually, the trailer brakes completely failed. I troubleshooted the problem, but could not find the cause (it eventually ended up being a short in one of the drum brakes, very difficult to find). So there I am, almost 1000 miles from home with no trailer brakes. To get home I have to cross over several mountain passes. Luckily, I had enough truck to make the trip carefully home. Had I been towing a 6000 lb trailer with a 2000 lb car, I think the situation would have been much different. Worse case scenario, the brakes could have failed on a 8% grade and the 6000 lb trailer would be pushing the 2000 lb car down the hill. The hitch isn't going to help much in this situation.
> 
> DAN


No offense but there is no way i would travel up and down hills that far with no trailer brakes with a 6000lb tv and a 6000 lb trailer................It simply is unsafe, I would suggest the better scenario there would have been to get to the nearest garage and get it all addressed and fixed or hotel and not take a risk getting home.

I do not mean to pee in your corn flakes (joking trying to keep it light)........but the TV are sized to stop the TV and its GVWR nothing else, the TT brakes are sized to stop itself only.......

I do not swear by them....... I swear by them for large TT to TV ratio's .........and again just my opinion...........
[/quote]

No offense taken.







It was a temporary situation that was rectified as soon as possible. The point is, you never know when something like this can happen and where or what situation you will be in when it does. This is why there is no substitute for having appropriate safety margins.

BTW - The unloaded weight of my truck is about 7500 lbs, the unloaded weight of my trailer is about 4700 lbs. I think I was far safer in the scenario I described with my setup than the people I see towing 32 foot trailers that weigh twice as much as their TV.

DAN


----------



## clarkely

TwoElkhounds said:


> BTW - The unloaded weight of my truck is about 7500 lbs, the unloaded weight of my trailer is about 4700 lbs. I think I was far safer in the scenario I described with my setup than the people I see towing 32 foot trailers that weigh twice as much as their TV.
> 
> DAN


No question there, you were definitely safer.............. That is what this is all about .............. how and what makes set ups safer...........


----------



## Nathan

Ok, I'm sitting here marveling at this thread! 103 posts, and no disintegration into a flame fest. I know of no other boards where we could continue through all of these posts with some vastly different opinions and not have it degrade past the point of no return.

I wish everyone a happy and safe weekend!


----------



## clarkely

Nathan said:


> Ok, I'm sitting here marveling at this thread! 103 posts, and no disintegration into a flame fest. I know of no other boards where we could continue through all of these posts with some vastly different opinions and not have it degrade past the point of no return.
> 
> I wish everyone a happy and safe weekend!


X2

That's what makes this place so good!!!! Hats off to the Mods for keeping an eye and not jumping it......... Other forums it would have been a [email protected]#ng match and probably would have had to be put down.


----------



## Sean Woodruff

clarkely said:


> Ok, I'm sitting here marveling at this thread! 103 posts, and no disintegration into a flame fest. I know of no other boards where we could continue through all of these posts with some vastly different opinions and not have it degrade past the point of no return.
> 
> I wish everyone a happy and safe weekend!


X2

That's what makes this place so good!!!! Hats off to the Mods for keeping an eye and not jumping it......... Other forums it would have been a [email protected]#ng match and probably would have had to be put down.
[/quote]

*X3*


----------



## Carey

TwoElkhounds said:


> As far as the weight, With the hitch I designed there is no longer any weight on the tow vehicle. So tires and gears in the whole driveline run way cooler. I never done a scientific temp test, but the rear diff would get so hot I couldnt touch it without my hitch and the rear diff would be so cool I could lay my hand on it all day with my hitch.


For all those who swear by these pivot point hitches, consider the following. Two years ago I was travelling through Kentucky and Pennsylvania. My trailer brakes began to fail intermmitently. Eventually, the trailer brakes completely failed. I troubleshooted the problem, but could not find the cause (it eventually ended up being a short in one of the drum brakes, very difficult to find). So there I am, almost 1000 miles from home with no trailer brakes. To get home I have to cross over several mountain passes. Luckily, I had enough truck to make the trip carefully home. Had I been towing a 6000 lb trailer with a 2000 lb car, I think the situation would have been much different. Worse case scenario, the brakes could have failed on a 8% grade and the 6000 lb trailer would be pushing the 2000 lb car down the hill. The hitch isn't going to help much in this situation.

DAN
[/quote]

A hitch like the one I built would help a tremendous amout if you loose your trailer brakes because it would allow braking as if you had no trailer. Yes the weight of the trailer would overheat the TV brakes quicker, but if you all of the sudden lost the trailer brakes using a 2000lb car with a 6000lb trailer, you would be much safer getting it to a stop that if a self supporting hitch wasnt used. The vehicle would still be able to use its front brakes in much of the same fashion like if the trailer wasnt there.

X4 This has been one of the best towing posts weve ever done concerning small vehicles towing large trailers.. Like I said before this forum is a one and only.

Carey


----------



## tdvffjohn

Sean Woodruff said:


> Ok, I'm sitting here marveling at this thread! 103 posts, and no disintegration into a flame fest. I know of no other boards where we could continue through all of these posts with some vastly different opinions and not have it degrade past the point of no return.
> 
> I wish everyone a happy and safe weekend!


X2

That's what makes this place so good!!!! Hats off to the Mods for keeping an eye and not jumping it......... Other forums it would have been a [email protected]#ng match and probably would have had to be put down.
[/quote]

*X3*









[/quote]

Interesting reading all day but its the members who allowed this thread to go on


----------



## TwoElkhounds

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> As far as the weight, With the hitch I designed there is no longer any weight on the tow vehicle. So tires and gears in the whole driveline run way cooler. I never done a scientific temp test, but the rear diff would get so hot I couldnt touch it without my hitch and the rear diff would be so cool I could lay my hand on it all day with my hitch.


For all those who swear by these pivot point hitches, consider the following. Two years ago I was travelling through Kentucky and Pennsylvania. My trailer brakes began to fail intermmitently. Eventually, the trailer brakes completely failed. I troubleshooted the problem, but could not find the cause (it eventually ended up being a short in one of the drum brakes, very difficult to find). So there I am, almost 1000 miles from home with no trailer brakes. To get home I have to cross over several mountain passes. Luckily, I had enough truck to make the trip carefully home. Had I been towing a 6000 lb trailer with a 2000 lb car, I think the situation would have been much different. Worse case scenario, the brakes could have failed on a 8% grade and the 6000 lb trailer would be pushing the 2000 lb car down the hill. The hitch isn't going to help much in this situation.

DAN
[/quote]

A hitch like the one I built would help a tremendous amout if you loose your trailer brakes because it would allow braking as if you had no trailer. Yes the weight of the trailer would overheat the TV brakes quicker, but if you all of the sudden lost the trailer brakes using a 2000lb car with a 6000lb trailer, you would be much safer getting it to a stop that if a self supporting hitch wasnt used. The vehicle would still be able to use its front brakes in much of the same fashion like if the trailer wasnt there.

X4 This has been one of the best towing posts weve ever done concerning small vehicles towing large trailers.. Like I said before this forum is a one and only.

Carey
[/quote]

I will take your word for it, but I am still skeptical.









DAN


----------



## Carey

TwoElkhounds said:


> As far as the weight, With the hitch I designed there is no longer any weight on the tow vehicle. So tires and gears in the whole driveline run way cooler. I never done a scientific temp test, but the rear diff would get so hot I couldnt touch it without my hitch and the rear diff would be so cool I could lay my hand on it all day with my hitch.


For all those who swear by these pivot point hitches, consider the following. Two years ago I was travelling through Kentucky and Pennsylvania. My trailer brakes began to fail intermmitently. Eventually, the trailer brakes completely failed. I troubleshooted the problem, but could not find the cause (it eventually ended up being a short in one of the drum brakes, very difficult to find). So there I am, almost 1000 miles from home with no trailer brakes. To get home I have to cross over several mountain passes. Luckily, I had enough truck to make the trip carefully home. Had I been towing a 6000 lb trailer with a 2000 lb car, I think the situation would have been much different. Worse case scenario, the brakes could have failed on a 8% grade and the 6000 lb trailer would be pushing the 2000 lb car down the hill. The hitch isn't going to help much in this situation.

DAN
[/quote]

A hitch like the one I built would help a tremendous amout if you loose your trailer brakes because it would allow braking as if you had no trailer. Yes the weight of the trailer would overheat the TV brakes quicker, but if you all of the sudden lost the trailer brakes using a 2000lb car with a 6000lb trailer, you would be much safer getting it to a stop that if a self supporting hitch wasnt used. The vehicle would still be able to use its front brakes in much of the same fashion like if the trailer wasnt there.

X4 This has been one of the best towing posts weve ever done concerning small vehicles towing large trailers.. Like I said before this forum is a one and only.

Carey
[/quote]

I will take your word for it, but I am still skeptical.









DAN
[/quote]

No problem. I totally understand.. Most people feel this way and things wont change till we see more of these ideas out there on the highways.

Carey


----------



## nonny

Hello all you highly informed folk. I am visiting my niece in GA, headed to my sister's in MO for a BRIEF stay, then on to a much-needed week of camping in northern lower MI and the UP for a week plus. I read only 3 pages of this thread and may have but a moment's chance to check for a response to my question but here goes. I now have a Ram 1500 Hemi with Prodigy and Equalizer towing an '06 23RS. Is this a safe combination with appropriate weight distribution and speed? For those of you who don't know me or have memories like mine, I bought the Durango just before I replaced my pop-up with the Outback. I had to wait a long time to trade in the Durango for a truck even though I was never comfortable towing the OB with it. I want you to tell me I have a safe combo now but only if that's reality and I know I'm asking the question of the true experts. By the way, I hope I can still get together with some of my friends this season as the camping season is not complete for me until I attend an Outbackers' Rally! Take care and God bless all!


----------



## CamperAndy

Carey and Sean - You heard about my leaf spring failure in early July. I had no sway or even excessive pull on the truck to indicate my trailer now effectively had a steer wheel that wanted to push the trailer off the road. These are my observations of the event.

My 1 ton truck with 160" wheel base is hard to push off the road.
My dual cam sway control allowed the trailer to swing out of line with the TV as the steer wheel effect of the trailer axle was greater then the cam action for the sway control.
Big truck and a sway control that allows some out of line movement, meant I was able to react to the issue and safely drive to the shoulder.

Now the question for you guys is, have you considered the action and reaction of your hitches to this type of event? I am thinking something else will want to break besides just the leaf spring and if it was with a smaller TV I also think there could have been some control issues. I know you can't say for sure what would happen in every case but I am very interested in your thoughts on the subject.


----------



## Collinsfam_WY

Wow - get back from a 1000mi. Outbacking trip to East TX and I get to read page after page of raw knowledge and experience. Awesome stuff










I hope this next part doesn't generate any flames but here goes...

One thing about the Hitch Hog still bothers me. After Carey and I installed it on my old F150, I got better towing gas mileage. I cannot explain it and I still have a hard time wrapping my head around that fact. DW noticed it on our first pull just by looking at the fuel gauge when we stopped at our normal spot to fill up when heading home. She didn't think of the Hog necessarily but just said "oh we used less gas". I looked and sure enough - the needle was near half instead of just under 1/4. I tested it time and again - towed to the exact same destination with the same weight several times and I measured fuel each time as well. It baffled me. I said nothing about it on Outbackers until I had towed with it several times and recorded the results.

Our F150's mileage with the hitch hog installed was similar to the towing mileage we get with our V10 SuperDuty now (8.5-9mpg). It gained about 1.5mpg.

I don't expect anyone to believe this because even though it happened to me and I verified it several times, I myself still do not "get it".

Back on the topic - towing with the Hog takes some getting used to. The stability and control imparted to the tow vehicle made me nervous. I was used to feeling the truck being pushed around, bumped up and down and pulled back...normal stuff you feel that you don't even realize you are really feeling it until it is gone. It took several trips to get used to the F150 towing with the Hog.

Oh - if you do get a Hog - be sure to add at least an hour to a long trip because every time you stop you will be a high school popularity contest with you being the Prom King/Queen.

-CC

Edit...DW and I were thrilled to death about the improved mileage. With our F150 getting 7.5-8mpg on a 24.5gal tank - our range was very short!!! We actually laughed each time we filled up because we were saving $$$ because of a hitch - it just seemed ridiculous. lol.


----------



## Carey

nonny said:


> Hello all you highly informed folk. I am visiting my niece in GA, headed to my sister's in MO for a BRIEF stay, then on to a much-needed week of camping in northern lower MI and the UP for a week plus. I read only 3 pages of this thread and may have but a moment's chance to check for a response to my question but here goes. I now have a Ram 1500 Hemi with Prodigy and Equalizer towing an '06 23RS. Is this a safe combination with appropriate weight distribution and speed? For those of you who don't know me or have memories like mine, I bought the Durango just before I replaced my pop-up with the Outback. I had to wait a long time to trade in the Durango for a truck even though I was never comfortable towing the OB with it. I want you to tell me I have a safe combo now but only if that's reality and I know I'm asking the question of the true experts. By the way, I hope I can still get together with some of my friends this season as the camping season is not complete for me until I attend an Outbackers' Rally! Take care and God bless all!


I feel you have a pefect truck for that trailer. My rule of thumb is no bigger than a 25 footer for any 1/2 ton. What model is your equalizer? Whats its weight rating? How many washers are you using for the hitch head set back? \

If you are feeling some sway or any uneasiness your hitch might be out of adjustment.

So let us know, but other than that I think you have the perfect truck for your trailer.

Carey


----------



## Carey

CamperAndy said:


> Carey and Sean - You heard about my leaf spring failure in early July. I had no sway or even excessive pull on the truck to indicate my trailer now effectively had a steer wheel that wanted to push the trailer off the road. These are my observations of the event.
> 
> My 1 ton truck with 160" wheel base is hard to push off the road.
> My dual cam sway control allowed the trailer to swing out of line with the TV as the steer wheel effect of the trailer axle was greater then the cam action for the sway control.
> Big truck and a sway control that allows some out of line movement, meant I was able to react to the issue and safely drive to the shoulder.
> 
> Now the question for you guys is, have you considered the action and reaction of your hitches to this type of event? I am thinking something else will want to break besides just the leaf spring and if it was with a smaller TV I also think there could have been some control issues. I know you can't say for sure what would happen in every case but I am very interested in your thoughts on the subject.


If the axle failure had been the front axle rather than the rear axle, youd have been in trouble Andy. But since the failure was the follow axle you were good and shouldnt have felt nothing.

The front axle is the control axle on an rv. The rear axle only helps to give the front/control axle added stability. This is well proven by the sway we instantly get when the nose of the trailer is higher than the rear. This is why we tow our rvs level, or slightly nose down.

The front axle has to be the lead axle so we get stability of the trailer. If the rear axle winds up being the lead axle like when the trailer is nose high, the trailer will act more like its a single axle, because the front axle connot help give the trailer stability. The front axle will follow what the lead 2nd axle is doing. The whole idea behind having 2 axles on any trailer is having the front axle the control axle and then the second axle is the stability axle for the front axle. The second axle will create a locking effect when its able to follow the lead/front axle.

Since a vehicle is moving forward having a rear axle become the lead axle will not allow the front axle to do anything but follow what the rear axle is doing.

With either of our hitches there would be nothing happen as both of our hitches do a better job of seperating the trailers actions from the truck then anything available on the mass market.

But if Seans or my hitch or even your combo had the same failure you had, except it was on the front axle you would have a trailer trying to pass you up moreso than having a failure on the rear axle.

But if the front axle fails it would make contact with the rear axle, so it wouldnt make the trailer steer very far. It would be a smoky tire burning mess though since the front axle tires would stop the rear axle tires..

Your 1 ton is a good TV for your trailer and I know your hitch is set up perfect. Since your trailer is set up perfect you shouldnt ever have a stability problem when loosing a back axle like you did. To further back up that your set up is good is having a failure like this and not even know it.. So this tells me you have done everything right Andy.









This very well could have wrecked many combos out on the roads if there hitch wasnt set up properly or had a bad balance set up on the trailer.

Carey


----------



## Carey

collinsfam_tx said:


> Wow - get back from a 1000mi. Outbacking trip to East TX and I get to read page after page of raw knowledge and experience. Awesome stuff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope this next part doesn't generate any flames but here goes...
> 
> One thing about the Hitch Hog still bothers me. After Carey and I installed it on my old F150, I got better towing gas mileage. I cannot explain it and I still have a hard time wrapping my head around that fact. DW noticed it on our first pull just by looking at the fuel gauge when we stopped at our normal spot to fill up when heading home. She didn't think of the Hog necessarily but just said "oh we used less gas". I looked and sure enough - the needle was near half instead of just under 1/4. I tested it time and again - towed to the exact same destination with the same weight several times and I measured fuel each time as well. It baffled me. I said nothing about it on Outbackers until I had towed with it several times and recorded the results.
> 
> Our F150's mileage with the hitch hog installed was similar to the towing mileage we get with our V10 SuperDuty now (8.5-9mpg). It gained about 1.5mpg.
> 
> I don't expect anyone to believe this because even though it happened to me and I verified it several times, I myself still do not "get it".
> 
> Back on the topic - towing with the Hog takes some getting used to. The stability and control imparted to the tow vehicle made me nervous. I was used to feeling the truck being pushed around, bumped up and down and pulled back...normal stuff you feel that you don't even realize you are really feeling it until it is gone. It took several trips to get used to the F150 towing with the Hog.
> 
> Oh - if you do get a Hog - be sure to add at least an hour to a long trip because every time you stop you will be a high school popularity contest with you being the Prom King/Queen.
> 
> -CC
> 
> Edit...DW and I were thrilled to death about the improved mileage. With our F150 getting 7.5-8mpg on a 24.5gal tank - our range was very short!!! We actually laughed each time we filled up because we were saving $$$ because of a hitch - it just seemed ridiculous. lol.


The reason for the mpg improvement is all about rolling resistance. Its also about heat generated in the rear differential and added friction in the rear diff. My hitch removes all of the friction, heat and rolling resistance from the TV.

When a trucks rear axle is carrying the weight of the tongue you will have a good amount of friction/resistance added.

Since we are spreading the weight and keeping all the weight perfectly balanced it rolls easier down the highway. Even though we have added 2 more tires to the combo.

I seen 1-1.5 mpg improvements as well. I havent ever said anything either cause knowone will believe this.

My hitch changes frictional resistance and rolling resistance. Spend some time here on Michelins webiste to see how much these two factors can change your fuel mileage. Click (click the blue tabs above the semi truck)

Now this would vary depending how heavy the tongue weight is and on what kind of tire. If you have a LT tire with 80 psi in it, adding 1000lbs of weight will not change rolling resistance as much as a P rated tire like we see on SUV'ss and 1/2 ton trucks with only 35-40 psi in the tires.

Since both Curtis and I were using our 1/2 tons with 800-1200lb tongue weights, we both seen mpg improvements when using what I designed. Why? Because we both were using P rated tires at like 40psi. Adding 1000lbs to our tires caused them to run much hotter and have substantially more resistance.

Remember that a tire can run cooler when it uses more air pressure. Higher air pressure aids in cooling of the tire. When a tire gets hot it doesnt roll near as easy.

I would say the average small suv or 1/2 ton truck would be guaranteed a 1mpg improvement. I wouldnt expect to see as much difference if a heavier 3/4-1ton had a 1000lb tongue weight. But you had a 15-2000lb tongue weight I would expect to see at least a 1/2 mpg gain wheather it be gas or diesel.

Yeah, most will think Curtis and I had broken calculators.. Thats ok, I will expect that... This idea is all new to the world. The idea is old, but actually inventing a self supporting hitch that works well with our modern vehicles and situations is all new to us.

In trucking, weight balance, friction and rolling resistance are some key factors for mpg's. Again what I have done is very, very similar to what is done in trucking everyday.

Carey


----------



## MJRey

Sean Woodruff said:


> I believe that there is only one hitch I have seen so far that will actually make a marginal TV safer and that is the Hitch Hog and anything else only masks the problems since the weight and all the forces are still on the trailer plus with a Hensley you add 200lbs to the already marginal TV.


I believe differently but I have only sold 12,000+ of them, on all sizes of tow vehicle (including cars), without one of them ever being involved in a sway accident so I'm a "bit" biased.









[/quote]

Sean, I've got a question that's a bit off topic but hey we're already off on a tangent with this thread so why not one more. A couple of years ago I was researching hitches and in my reading about the Hensley Arrow hitch I found that it had not been copied because it had a patented design. When I looked up the patent it looked like it expired sometime this year. Is the design still protected by patent?


----------



## Sean Woodruff

MJRey said:


> Sean, I've got a question that's a bit off topic but hey we're already off on a tangent with this thread so why not one more. A couple of years ago I was researching hitches and in my reading about the Hensley Arrow hitch I found that it had not been copied because it had a patented design. When I looked up the patent it looked like it expired sometime this year. Is the design still protected by patent?


The orange has NO current U.S. patents on it. It may still have some Canadian patents in force but Jim Hensley owns them and the orange company doesn't have a license to produce them anymore (although they do). The patents on that hitch were for the linkage system.

My hitch does have patents that include the yoke and the adjustable hitch bar to work with any converging linkage hitch (in other words my hitch AND the orange).


----------



## Collinsfam_WY

As a reminder - Sean isn't being rude or poking fun calling the Hensley "the orange". I believe that their legal dept. sent a letter to him threatening action if he did not stop using that word (Hensley). Or something like that...









-CC


----------



## Sean Woodruff

collinsfam_tx said:


> As a reminder - Sean isn't being rude or poking fun calling the Hensley "the orange". I believe that their legal dept. sent a letter to him threatening action if he did not stop using that word (Hensley). Or something like that...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -CC


Yes, they sued both me and Jim Hensley for using Jim's name. They stated we were intentionally misleading potential customers and attempting to pass off our product as their product. NOTHING COULD BE *FURTHER* FROM THE TRUTH. They also do not want Jim to be able to use his name for any of his future inventions. They filed and received a trademark on the word Hensley® and never mentioned ANY existence of the man with that name in the application. I'm not sure what the penalty is for filing a falsified trademark application.

Trademark Statement:
Hensley® is a registered trademark of Hensley Mfg., Inc. and I do not have ANYTHING to do with that company. ProPride, Inc. products ARE NOT the same product and ProPride, Inc., and owner of ProPride, Inc., HAVE NOT been involved with ANY aspect of Hensley Mfg. since July 2, 2007. PLEASE do not confuse ProPride, Inc. or its products with anything associated with Hensley Mfg., Inc.

(I figure it's much easier to use the word "orange" than have to circle the 'R' and make a statement every single time I mention the company or its products. I also realize the above is facetious but they stated in their case that the market is "unsophisticated" and cannot tell the difference between the two of us. *I've* never talked to, or read anything, from anyone that is close to confused but that is their view of potential customers.)


----------



## BoaterDan

Sean Woodruff said:


> I also realize the above is facetious but they stated in their case that the market is "unsophisticated" and cannot tell the difference between the two of us. *I've* never talked to, or read anything, from anyone that is close to confused but that is their view of potential customers.)


I'm not sure, being unsophisticated and all, but I think I was just insulted by the Hensley folks.

On a more serious note, you folks seem to keep missing my point.

You put somebody in a 40mph go-kart and tell them they have to wear a seatbelt and they think "well, of course!". Put somebody in a 80mph car and many of them reject the need to belt in. Why? Because they inherently feel so much safer in car, even though they're a bazillion times more likely to die in a car statistically. There was some interesting research I read about a while back on exactly this point relative to airbags - a certain percentage of drivers had stopped wearing seat belts because the air bags were going to keep them safe, but the reality is air bags are dangerous without belts and actually add a relatively small amount of additional safety over belts alone (at least as of the technology a decade or so ago).

I'm not arguing whether or not trailers will become lighter and whether eventually there will be crossovers legally and safely pulling 30 foot trailers. This is more of a philosophical/psychological question.

My point is ONLY that if you make somebody feel safer in a configuration that is still inherently very unsafe, there's a reasonable argument that you've made the roads they drive less safe not more, IF the sway would have otherwise driven them to address the overall unsafe TV/TT configuration. (Before anybody writes letters, I realize the analogy to the airbag research breaks down somewhat at this point because the pivot hitch does in fact increase the safety overall significantly with the elimination of sway.)

I guess this point has been so lost in this bigger thread that it's not worth discussion any more. I just don't like being misrepresented or getting responses that don't really address my point.


----------



## tdvffjohn

You were but what ya gonna do, sue em?







Maybe an Outbackers class action suit, defamation of character.


----------



## CamperAndy

BoaterDan said:


> I guess this point has been so lost in this bigger thread that it's not worth discussion any more. I just don't like being misrepresented or getting responses that don't really address my point.


Keep trying. I always do and sometimes it bears fruit.


----------



## Nathan

BoaterDan said:


> ...
> On a more serious note, you folks seem to keep missing my point.
> 
> You put somebody in a 40mph go-kart and tell them they have to wear a seatbelt and they think "well, of course!". Put somebody in a 80mph car and many of them reject the need to belt in. Why? Because they inherently feel so much safer in car, even though they're a bazillion times more likely to die in a car statistically. There was some interesting research I read about a while back on exactly this point relative to airbags - a certain percentage of drivers had stopped wearing seat belts because the air bags were going to keep them safe, but the reality is air bags are dangerous without belts and actually add a relatively small amount of additional safety over belts alone (at least as of the technology a decade or so ago).
> 
> I'm not arguing whether or not trailers will become lighter and whether eventually there will be crossovers legally and safely pulling 30 foot trailers. This is more of a philosophical/psychological question.
> 
> My point is ONLY that if you make somebody feel safer in a configuration that is still inherently very unsafe, there's a reasonable argument that you've made the roads they drive less safe not more, IF the sway would have otherwise driven them to address the overall unsafe TV/TT configuration. (Before anybody writes letters, I realize the analogy to the airbag research breaks down somewhat at this point because the pivot hitch does in fact increase the safety overall significantly with the elimination of sway.)
> 
> I guess this point has been so lost in this bigger thread that it's not worth discussion any more. I just don't like being misrepresented or getting responses that don't really address my point.


I hear you Dan, BUT, I think it also goes both ways here.

Some may disagree, but IMO, a large TV can also give you a false sense of security. There have been visitor to this site who have commented on things like pulling trailers without WDH, sway, brakes. I'm NOT speaking of emergency situations (like mentioned earlier here) and understand that you do have an increased margin of safety, but I think some people assume once they buy a big truck, that it can do anything. In this way, the big truck is no different than the fancy hitch. No, I'm not saying a fancy hitch is equal to a big truck, but it's still a preceived sense of security.

I have no illusions of the fact that even that little OB I had







could have taken my big Diesel for a ride if I wasn't careful. As everything gets bigger, the forces get increasingly higher and bad things can happen. Myself, many of the engineers I work with and obviously many members on this site including you are always trying to prep for the worst case scenario, but often that thought process is what helps to protect us....... (for instance we might get that fancy hitch to improve our margin of safety, not to make us invincible)


----------



## Sean Woodruff

BoaterDan said:


> My point is ONLY that if you make somebody feel safer in a configuration that is still inherently very unsafe, there's a reasonable argument that you've made the roads they drive less safe not more, IF the sway would have otherwise driven them to address the overall unsafe TV/TT configuration. (Before anybody writes letters, I realize the analogy to the airbag research breaks down somewhat at this point because the pivot hitch does in fact increase the safety overall significantly with the elimination of sway.)
> 
> I guess this point has been so lost in this bigger thread that it's not worth discussion any more. I just don't like being misrepresented or getting responses that don't really address my point.


Dan, I understand your point but I can't follow the logic. Making someone safer by eliminating trailer sway is making them safer by eliminating the trailer sway component of a system. No matter all the other components of the system they are still safer.

Let's look at this way... if I have a baby walking around my kitchen, and I turn off a hot stove so the baby won't be burned, the baby is safer. That's not to say that the baby won't fall down and smack his head because he is a baby and can't walk very well. I don't think anyone would say "but turning off the hot stove is only "covering up" the fact that the baby can still fall."

Also, I'm not sure how making one component of a system safer (e.g.- purchasing a larger tow vehicle or shorter trailer) is anymore valid than changing another component of a system. I have MANY more examples of the larger tow vehicle allowing a sway accident to occur than I have of a pivot point projection hitch allowing a trailer to sway and cause an accident. There are no incidents of the latter even though there are many of the 12,000+ on the road towing with "less than optimally" sized tow vehicles.

What it comes down to is some people like chocolate ice cream and some people like vanilla. They usually won't be "convinced" to like the other until they develop a chocolate, or vanilla, allergy. I happen to enjoy a twist.


----------



## BoaterDan

Very good point Nathan.

Sean, sorry you missed it again.









My comments don't have much to do with your reply. I concede all your points. No, better yet, I agree.

The question is a philosophical one. Let's bring Nathan's response in to show you this isn't about arguing people shouldn't buy pivot point hitches.

How do we continue to educate people that they are still unsafe, to themselves or others, when they feel they are because they bought the TV with 30 foot wheelbase or airbags or pivot point hitch and fixed the one aspect of their condition they could "feel". Take the guy that used to porpoise like crazy with his 2,000 tongue weight, but he threw some airbags on there and now feels like a million bucks and takes off down the road at 70mph. (I don't know anything about airbags - I hope that story works. LOL.)

To take the baby analogy... the baby walks into the room so you turn off the stove but leave the pot of boiling water on the front burner. "Whew! Got there just in time," you think. Wrong. The baby is still at great risk. The proper response is to put up the baby fence so she can't come in the kitchen at all while you're cooking. But by fixing the one glaring obvious and immediate problem, you feel everything's ok and don't even stay in the room.

When I ask if you've made things worse, I mean only in the sense of have you helped discourage the person from doing the right thing. In the case of an unsafe TV/TT configuration, the right thing is to not get on the road, not put on a pivot point hitch, or get a bigger TV (that's otherwise still unqualified), etc. Sure, all those things might help, and in that sense make them safer, but overall it's not the right thing to do when you're horribly over the TV's ratings.

Maybe it's just keep gently hammering away like this site tends to do. We seem to have a good mix of knowledge and people willing to speak up but without flaming.

And, it goes back to the first philosophical question of whether it matters. Let me ask it this way... if somebody pulling a 30 foot trailer with a Smart car wanted to buy one of your hitches and you refused because you don't want to have anything to do with it... would that encourage them to rethink their combination, or would they just drive on cursing about what a moron you are?


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## MJRey

Sean Woodruff said:


> Sean, I've got a question that's a bit off topic but hey we're already off on a tangent with this thread so why not one more. A couple of years ago I was researching hitches and in my reading about the Hensley Arrow hitch I found that it had not been copied because it had a patented design. When I looked up the patent it looked like it expired sometime this year. Is the design still protected by patent?


The orange has NO current U.S. patents on it. It may still have some Canadian patents in force but Jim Hensley owns them and the orange company doesn't have a license to produce them anymore (although they do). The patents on that hitch were for the linkage system.

My hitch does have patents that include the yoke and the adjustable hitch bar to work with any converging linkage hitch (in other words my hitch AND the orange).
[/quote]

Thanks Sean, that's what I thought I'd read. I guess the inherently higher cost of manufacturing a hitch of that design is keeping the large hitch companies (Reese, Husky, Equalizer) from coming out with their own versions. They would also likely be taking away sales of their existing hitches which probably have a better profit margin since they've been out for quite a while.

Another side note, when I was researching hitches I really couldn't understand how the "orange" hitch worked even after looking at their literature. Lots of claims in the sales literature but as an engineer I couldn't grasp what was really going on inside the hitch. All the talk about pivot point projection and virtual pivot points was interesting but I just couldn't grasp how it was happening. I even read the patent application and that helped a bit. It wasn't until I saw this video using lego parts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fdM_gn-CyM) that the light finally went off and I understood how it was having such a dramatic effect. I even made a similar model using my sons Legos just to make sure it was real. In the end it made more sense to put the money I was thinking of spending on a new hitch towards a bigger truck instead. At least that was another point I used when I was trying to convince DW to let me get a diesel truck







. When I upgrade to a bigger trailer I'll probably upgrade hitches as well.


----------



## Sean Woodruff

I get it, Dan. But, you are coming at it from the belief that Tow Ratings are the gospel and I happen to not believe that. I've had enough conversations with engineers that put tow ratings on vehicles, and test them, to know that it really isn't that exact of a science. I've also towed thousands of miles with a Lincoln Town Car (5,000lb tow rating) towing a 10,000lb Airstream without even a hint of it being a problem. So, I'm not one to comment on the validity of tow ratings because I have too much information to the contrary in my head. The only reason I don't comment on it is that I really don't need the aggravation of the debate and trying to convince anyone. I just don't have the time and I've learned that the vehicle manufacturers are like the Pope of manufacturing to the Catholics in the towing world. I'm not Catholic...


----------



## Sean Woodruff

MJRey said:


> Thanks Sean, that's what I thought I'd read. I guess the inherently higher cost of manufacturing a hitch of that design is keeping the large hitch companies (Reese, Husky, Equalizer) from coming out with their own versions. They would also likely be taking away sales of their existing hitches which probably have a better profit margin since they've been out for quite a while.
> 
> Another side note, when I was researching hitches I really couldn't understand how the "orange" hitch worked even after looking at their literature. Lots of claims in the sales literature but as an engineer I couldn't grasp what was really going on inside the hitch. All the talk about pivot point projection and virtual pivot points was interesting but I just couldn't grasp how it was happening. I even read the patent application and that helped a bit. It wasn't until I saw this video using lego parts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fdM_gn-CyM) that the light finally went off and I understood how it was having such a dramatic effect. I even made a similar model using my sons Legos just to make sure it was real. In the end it made more sense to put the money I was thinking of spending on a new hitch towards a bigger truck instead. At least that was another point I used when I was trying to convince DW to let me get a diesel truck
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . When I upgrade to a bigger trailer I'll probably upgrade hitches as well.


Mark, here's a bit of trivia for you... Reese DID have the hitch for a couple years BEFORE Hensley Mfg, Inc. was ever a gleam in the eye of anyone. They gave it back to Jim due to exactly what you stated above. They really don't have the system in place to sell anything that takes a bit of education to sell. There business model is to throw it all out there at a price that doesn't take a whole lot of explanation.

Hopefully one of my next videos will describe how the hitch works. It really is a simple concept once the light does go off.


----------



## CamperAndy

I'm still curious what impact an axle failure would have on the dynamics of a pivot point hitch. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but that failure model is of current interest to me and I am just wondering. I think the steer wheel effect would be much greater then many of the typical sway events people have.


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## Carey

BoaterDan said:


> I also realize the above is facetious but they stated in their case that the market is "unsophisticated" and cannot tell the difference between the two of us. *I've* never talked to, or read anything, from anyone that is close to confused but that is their view of potential customers.)


On a more serious note, you folks seem to keep missing my point.

My point is ONLY that if you make somebody feel safer in a configuration that is still inherently very unsafe, there's a reasonable argument that you've made the roads they drive less safe not more, IF the sway would have otherwise driven them to address the overall unsafe TV/TT configuration. (Before anybody writes letters, I realize the analogy to the airbag research breaks down somewhat at this point because the pivot hitch does in fact increase the safety overall significantly with the elimination of sway.)

[/quote]

What if someoene invents a device that makes what was inherently very unsafe into something that is inherently very safe?

I feel Sean and I have done that.

And to remember: Semis move our world.

They are rated for between 50-60k gvw and 80-100000 gcvw.

To move an object bigger than the 100,000k gcvw they simply use a trailer that makes the unsafe, safe. The trailer also makes the weight correct so that truck can pull it without any issues and still be safe.

They move objects up to and over 300,000lbs with a tow vehicle that is rated for 100,000lbs combined.

This is safe to do because they buy special equipment that enables them to do the job safely.

Same deal hear. These hitches totally remove the unsafe part of towing. They are venturing into the final frontier as far as needed technolgy to make towing any size trailer with any size vehicle totally safe.

The roads will become safer in general, if more people use what is proven to make there combo safer. Size doesnt really matter here, because anything can be overloaded and over abused.

It doesnt matter what the combo is large or small. If people use well designed, higher tech products, your world Dan, will become safer.

It is possible to invent something, that reguardless what its used on will take all the unsafe part away and replace it with safe.

Carey


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## Sean Woodruff

CamperAndy said:


> I'm still curious what impact an axle failure would have on the dynamics of a pivot point hitch. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but that failure model is of current interest to me and I am just wondering. I think the steer wheel effect would be much greater then many of the typical sway events people have.


Why would you think it would be any different than any other hitch? I ask because your question presupposes it would be different.

What do you mean by axle failure? It breaking in half? I've never heard of an axle failure, with any hitch, in all the years I have been doing this.


----------



## Carey

CamperAndy said:


> I'm still curious what impact an axle failure would have on the dynamics of a pivot point hitch. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but that failure model is of current interest to me and I am just wondering. I think the steer wheel effect would be much greater then many of the typical sway events people have.


Unless the steer wheel causes a whip effect. Nothing more than towing an out of align trailer would happen.

When a trailer sways wildly it quickly overcomes any tow vehicle, no matter the size of the tow vehicle. When a trailer loses an axle like yours done, it should just pulls out of align.

Semis have used rear steerable trailer wheels for years. They are used off road to get long and large objects to point B like an oil well site. The wheels are able to steer on there own. This makes going around tight curves much easier.

As long as the brakes arent used there are no issues. If the brakes are used to a point of having to stop in a curve, the trailer winds up almost passing the truck.

So I'd like to ask Sean, if a trailer was to pass the tow vehicle while braking because of a mechanical problem like Andys , would anything break in your hitch. Would the hitch stop the trailer passing the truck?

Would this force be sent to another area like the reciever hitch or trailer tongue?

Carey


----------



## Carey

Sean Woodruff said:


> I'm still curious what impact an axle failure would have on the dynamics of a pivot point hitch. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but that failure model is of current interest to me and I am just wondering. I think the steer wheel effect would be much greater then many of the typical sway events people have.


Why would you think it would be any different than any other hitch? I ask because your question presupposes it would be different.

What do you mean by axle failure? It breaking in half? I've never heard of an axle failure, with any hitch, in all the years I have been doing this.
[/quote]

Andy will post a pic. His rear trailer axle u bolts got loose and this caused the spring eye pin to shear, loosing the leaf springs and allowing one side of the axle to twist back on the main leaf spring.

I will look for the thread.

Carey


----------



## Carey

Click

There you are Sean. Pics on page 2.

Carey


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## Sean Woodruff

Sean Woodruff said:


> I'm still curious what impact an axle failure would have on the dynamics of a pivot point hitch. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but that failure model is of current interest to me and I am just wondering. I think the steer wheel effect would be much greater then many of the typical sway events people have.


Why would you think it would be any different than any other hitch? I ask because your question presupposes it would be different.

What do you mean by axle failure? It breaking in half? I've never heard of an axle failure, with any hitch, in all the years I have been doing this.
[/quote]

For some reason when I read, and answered, I was thinking tow vehicle axle and not trailer axle. I HAVE read and heard about trailer axles.

Anyway, I don't think it would have anymore of an affect on the tow vehicle than when a tire blows on the trailer. The most recent review submitted on the 3P page on my site is from a guy who had 2 tires blow out on a recent trip. (the great thing about that review is he is a FORMER orange customer.)


----------



## CamperAndy

I have had tires blow on the trailer and did not know it until told by a passing car and was only confirmed when I pulled over, that is once with no sway control only a WDH and the other time was with sway control. With the TRAILER leaf spring failure I was told by a passing car but when I looked in my mirror it looked like I was making a tight turn. The trailer was 15 to 20 degrees out of line with the TV, so I knew I had issues well before I pulled over.

Now I will voice a concern with a projected pivot point hitch, the ball pivot is more or less locked (that is my understanding) while under tow at speed. The forces that present with an uncontrolled trailer steer wheel I think would break and/or shear something on a projection hitch. If not then it would have to pull the back of the TV out of line or ??????? So I know the failure mode may be rare but I am curious if it was ever considered or seen.


----------



## kmsjs

MJRey said:


> Sean, I've got a question that's a bit off topic but hey we're already off on a tangent with this thread so why not one more. A couple of years ago I was researching hitches and in my reading about the Hensley Arrow hitch I found that it had not been copied because it had a patented design. When I looked up the patent it looked like it expired sometime this year. Is the design still protected by patent?


The orange has NO current U.S. patents on it. It may still have some Canadian patents in force but Jim Hensley owns them and the orange company doesn't have a license to produce them anymore (although they do). The patents on that hitch were for the linkage system.

My hitch does have patents that include the yoke and the adjustable hitch bar to work with any converging linkage hitch (in other words my hitch AND the orange).
[/quote]

Thanks Sean, that's what I thought I'd read. I guess the inherently higher cost of manufacturing a hitch of that design is keeping the large hitch companies (Reese, Husky, Equalizer) from coming out with their own versions. They would also likely be taking away sales of their existing hitches which probably have a better profit margin since they've been out for quite a while.

Another side note, when I was researching hitches I really couldn't understand how the "orange" hitch worked even after looking at their literature. Lots of claims in the sales literature but as an engineer I couldn't grasp what was really going on inside the hitch. All the talk about pivot point projection and virtual pivot points was interesting but I just couldn't grasp how it was happening. I even read the patent application and that helped a bit. It wasn't until I saw this video using lego parts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fdM_gn-CyM) that the light finally went off and I understood how it was having such a dramatic effect. I even made a similar model using my sons Legos just to make sure it was real. In the end it made more sense to put the money I was thinking of spending on a new hitch towards a bigger truck instead. At least that was another point I used when I was trying to convince DW to let me get a diesel truck







. When I upgrade to a bigger trailer I'll probably upgrade hitches as well.
[/quote]

It is because of this video that I decided to purchase the ProPride instead of an Equilizer. The Lego video makes the technology make sense, even to a moron like me!


----------



## Collinsfam_WY

Andy - a good while back, while in a discussion about a Hensley, I had a similar thought. Physics works just fine up until the point of mechanical failure of....something.

I would think though that whatever force was enough to cause a PPP hitch or a TV part to fail would be sufficient to accomplish similar destruction if you were using an Equalizer or Reese Dual Cam. In either case - you would probably be counting your blessings to have yourself and the occupants all make it out ok.

-CC


----------



## CamperAndy

collinsfam_tx said:


> Andy - a good while back, while in a discussion about a Hensley, I had a similar thought. Physics works just fine up until the point of mechanical failure of....something.
> 
> I would think though that whatever force was enough to cause a PPP hitch or a TV part to fail would be sufficient to accomplish similar destruction if you were using an Equalizer or Reese Dual Cam. In either case - you would probably be counting your blessings to have yourself and the occupants all make it out ok.
> 
> -CC


I guess that is the basis for my question the Reese took it in stride. The steer effect overcame the dual cams ability to maintain the TT in line behind me but since it does not restrict the balls ability to pivot there was no great stress applied to the hitch or receiver to break anything. Mechanical failure or a really big wind there is a point at which even the best fail to preform. I am just trying to find out if my event could have had secondary failures depending on the hitch I could have had.


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## kmsjs

I have used a Reese WD hitch and now the ProPride. I can honestly say that I can't possibly see how the PP would ever break. It has so much more "meat" than the Reese does! I can barely lift up the stinger on the PP, because it is 2" of solid metal. The whole hitch delivered to my door weighed close to 400lbs. The UPS man was not happy that day! I would be afraid of the Reese bending, but I would be afraid of the receiver braking off of the TV before anything happens to the ProPride!


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## Sean Woodruff

CamperAndy said:


> I have had tires blow on the trailer and did not know it until told by a passing car and was only confirmed when I pulled over, that is once with no sway control only a WDH and the other time was with sway control. With the TRAILER leaf spring failure I was told by a passing car but when I looked in my mirror it looked like I was making a tight turn. The trailer was 15 to 20 degrees out of line with the TV, so I knew I had issues well before I pulled over.
> 
> Now I will voice a concern with a projected pivot point hitch, the ball pivot is more or less locked (that is my understanding) while under tow at speed. The forces that present with an uncontrolled trailer steer wheel I think would break and/or shear something on a projection hitch. If not then it would have to pull the back of the TV out of line or ??????? So I know the failure mode may be rare but I am curious if it was ever considered or seen.


What is a trailer steer wheel? I ask because all wheels are towed on a trailer. I'm not familiar with the term.

I don't think you would have had that 15 to 20 degrees out of line. Of course, that is assuming nothing breaks. As an engineer I can't bring myself to say ANYTHING is indestructible.


----------



## Sean Woodruff

kmsjs said:


> I have used a Reese WD hitch and now the ProPride. I can honestly say that I can't possibly see how the PP would ever break. It has so much more "meat" than the Reese does! I can barely lift up the stinger on the PP, because it is 2" of solid metal. The whole hitch delivered to my door weighed close to 400lbs. The UPS man was not happy that day! I would be afraid of the Reese bending, but I would be afraid of the receiver braking off of the TV before anything happens to the ProPride!


Hi Steve! I appreciate that but the 4 boxes weighed 232lbs.









I know it DOES seem like a tank when you see it for the first time. I get that comment all the time.

All the parts, including the hitch bar, weigh 200lbs without all the boxes and foam in place packaging.


----------



## kmsjs

Sean Woodruff said:


> I have used a Reese WD hitch and now the ProPride. I can honestly say that I can't possibly see how the PP would ever break. It has so much more "meat" than the Reese does! I can barely lift up the stinger on the PP, because it is 2" of solid metal. The whole hitch delivered to my door weighed close to 400lbs. The UPS man was not happy that day! I would be afraid of the Reese bending, but I would be afraid of the receiver braking off of the TV before anything happens to the ProPride!


Hi Steve! I appreciate that but the 4 boxes weighed 232lbs.









I know it DOES seem like a tank when you see it for the first time. I get that comment all the time.

All the parts, including the hitch bar, weigh 200lbs without all the boxes and foam in place packaging.
[/quote]

That might be true, but it felt like 400lbs carrying it in from the front porch!


----------



## CamperAndy

Sean Woodruff said:


> I have had tires blow on the trailer and did not know it until told by a passing car and was only confirmed when I pulled over, that is once with no sway control only a WDH and the other time was with sway control. With the TRAILER leaf spring failure I was told by a passing car but when I looked in my mirror it looked like I was making a tight turn. The trailer was 15 to 20 degrees out of line with the TV, so I knew I had issues well before I pulled over.
> 
> Now I will voice a concern with a projected pivot point hitch, the ball pivot is more or less locked (that is my understanding) while under tow at speed. The forces that present with an uncontrolled trailer steer wheel I think would break and/or shear something on a projection hitch. If not then it would have to pull the back of the TV out of line or ??????? So I know the failure mode may be rare but I am curious if it was ever considered or seen.


What is a trailer steer wheel? I ask because all wheels are towed on a trailer. I'm not familiar with the term.

I don't think you would have had that 15 to 20 degrees out of line. Of course, that is assuming nothing breaks. As an engineer I can't bring myself to say ANYTHING is indestructible.
[/quote]

Steer wheel is used on purpose on very long semi trailers and ladder fire trucks to help navigate tight turns. It allows the rear of the trailer to take its own track and not follow the lead of the TV. I am surprised you have not heard of that use before. Heck even some high end sports cars have 4 wheel steering which is used for stability.

The problem is this is not a good thing in a towed trailer doing 60 mph when the trailer wheels want to drive the trailer off the road. Yes it was at least 15 degrees out of line.


----------



## Sean Woodruff

kmsjs said:


> That might be true, but it felt like 400lbs carrying it in from the front porch!


I hear you... they just seem lighter when you move them around as much as I do...


----------



## Sean Woodruff

CamperAndy said:


> Steer wheel is used on purpose on very long semi trailers and ladder fire trucks to help navigate tight turns. It allows the rear of the trailer to take its own track and not follow the lead of the TV. I am surprised you have not heard of that use before. Heck even some high end sports cars have 4 wheel steering which is used for stability.
> 
> The problem is this is not a good thing in a towed trailer doing 60 mph when the trailer wheels want to drive the trailer off the road. Yes it was at least 15 degrees out of line.


First time I ever heard it, really...

I learn something every day from you guys on this forum.


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## N7OQ

I read on a Duramax site that a Hensley Arrow is not a good hitch for a Duramax/Allison truck. The Duramax and Allison use engine braking while towing and the HA can't be used this way. They said it will but them in a dangerous condition due to unlocking and pivoting from side to side. He said the manufacture recommends the brakes to the trailer must be applied before the TV brakes so to use it in tow haul you must keep your foot on the brakes when the transmission is downshifting or just holding the trailer back on a down grade. I think the Ford Diesel works the same as the Duramax so would be a problem there too and how about a TV with a stick shift?

I also read about a guy who had bad sway with a HA so took it apart and found a bearing had failed and since the bearing was not designed to be replace he had to replace the whole hitch, ouch! So it's not as perfect as they would like you to believe.


----------



## Sean Woodruff

N7OQ said:


> I also read about a guy who had bad sway with a HA so took it apart and found a bearing had failed and since the bearing was not designed to be replace he had to replace the whole hitch, ouch! So it's not as perfect as they would like you to believe.


That's funny because a bearing failure would do the exact opposite of allowing a sway to occur (and that is not even to mention that I have NEVER heard of a bearing failure and there's roughly 96,000 bearings in the hitches out there). The bearing would lock the link from pivoting in the bearing housing. The guy commenting obviously didn't understand how the hitch works. Also, the bearing is easily replaceable. THAT is a prime example, on two levels, of don't believe everything you read.

The final funny piece of that story is that he BOUGHT ANOTHER ONE even when he supposedly had bad sway and didn't pop off the bearing cap, remove a castle nut, and slide an $8.00 bearing off the spindle for replacement...


----------



## N7OQ

Sean Woodruff said:


> I also read about a guy who had bad sway with a HA so took it apart and found a bearing had failed and since the bearing was not designed to be replace he had to replace the whole hitch, ouch! So it's not as perfect as they would like you to believe.


That's funny because a bearing failure would do the exact opposite of allowing a sway to occur (and that is not even to mention that I have NEVER heard of a bearing failure and there's roughly 96,000 bearings in the hitches out there). The bearing would lock the link from pivoting in the bearing housing. The guy commenting obviously didn't understand how the hitch works. Also, the bearing is easily replaceable. THAT is a prime example, on two levels, of don't believe everything you read.

The final funny piece of that story is that he BOUGHT ANOTHER ONE even when he supposedly had bad sway and didn't pop off the bearing cap, remove a castle nut, and slide an $8.00 bearing off the spindle for replacement...








[/quote]
Is the Hensley Arrow the same as the Pro Pride? Because he had a HA not a PP. 
I was able to see a Hensley Arrow at the Nor Cal rally and have to say it was impressive, I do like how you can change the weigh distribution with the 2 front adjusters, much easier than the Equalizer hitch.


----------



## Sean Woodruff

N7OQ said:


> Is the Hensley Arrow the same as the Pro Pride? Because he had a HA not a PP.
> I was able to see a Hensley Arrow at the Nor Cal rally and have to say it was impressive, I do like how you can change the weigh distribution with the 2 front adjusters, much easier than the Equalizer hitch.


The basic concept is the same. The bearings can easily be changed in either. The weight distribution is done with jacks on both systems.


----------



## Carey

I figured Id post a pic of a steerable lift axle that can be used on a semi truck or trailer. These are used when the vehicle is loaded and steer by them selves as the trailer turns.










Carey


----------



## Carey

Here is another that uses a stiff shock to control the steering.

I have used these. We simply flip a switch and the axle lowers and then helps to remove weight from other axles. I have seen 3 of these axles being used along with just one stationary axle on a semi trailer.

When the trailer is unloaded, you simply lift all the axles except one. This saves tire wear.










Carey


----------



## Carey

Its a wonder all this goes straight down the road. The rear set of wheels on the rear jeep are able to steer as they wish. Its all controlled with weight balance.

This trailer will allow a weight above 200,000lbs to be towed by a tractor with a weight rating of 100,000lbs combined.










Here is a pic of a steerable lift axle used on a semi trailer.










This would give an allowable weight of 40,000 spread over the 3 axles in most states.

In trucking, we simply bolt on more axles to spread the weight. No law against it except for maybe a permit.. Some states like michigan allow up to 200,000lb trailer weights as long as the weight is spread over the many mutiples of tires.

For interstate trucks adding an axle will allow 40,000 on the group of axles versus 34,000.

I have driven these and you never even know the trailer axle steers. You feel less bind in corners and thats it. It trails just fine going down the highway.

Many of these liftable steerable axles also have brakes so a driver must respect that. They wont wreck you but will cause the trailer to go more out of line than if the trailer had non steebale axles when braking hard in a curve.

Carey


----------



## CamperAndy

Great display of trailer steering technology Carey. That really neat stuf and it would help when parking in some of the campgrounds I use!!!

I don't know how to ask my question any differently but maybe all the information you posted will help. If a trailer was being towed at 60 mph with a pivot point projection hitch and the rear axle of the trailer became a steer wheel (mechanical failure like I had) would it lead to secondary failures in the hitch or control issues due to lack of articulation of the true pivot point while the PPP is under tow load?


----------



## Carey

CamperAndy said:


> Great display of trailer steering technology Carey. That really neat stuf and it would help when parking in some of the campgrounds I use!!!
> 
> I don't know how to ask my question any differently but maybe all the information you posted will help. If a trailer was being towed at 60 mph with a pivot point projection hitch and the rear axle of the trailer became a steer wheel (mechanical failure like I had) would it lead to secondary failures in the hitch or control issues due to lack of articulation of the true pivot point while the PPP is under tow load?


No problem Andy. If any would like to learn how these crazy bunches of pivot points work together, just do a you tube search on heavy haul semi trucks.

If you find any good ones, post em here!

I gotta hit the road. Im heading for Indy this morn. I told my dispatcher yesterday I was leaving yesterday afternoon and would be there wed morn.. lol Im just leaving now...

Yea, yea.. I will drive the speed limit!

I agree with what Andy said, let the thread ebb and flow.. Some bear fruit, and some bear junk..

I think this has been a great thread so far and thanks to you guys we can actually have fun on Outbackers.

Carey


----------



## BoaterDan

Sean, that's the answer I was looking for. You reject the premise of my question. Fair enough.

Carey's response kind of missed the point again, but I infer that he basically holds the same position as you.

I take your response to mean you believe sway is by far both the most common and dangerous "problem" with towing, and many of the other ones (like being somewhat underpowered and sluggish to get to freeway speed, for example) is relatively unimportant once the sway is eliminated.

But would there be a point where you'd have to just shake your head and turn away a customer? Somebody who has to have the tongue weight at 3% to keep the TV rear springs from bottom out or snapping in half?

If I accept your premise that you have to be talking about such an extreme condition in order for the sway not to be solving 99% of the problems, do you accept mine that there is at least theoretically a case where the person should simply never be on the road, pivot point hitch or not? Or is it that the problems like light tongue weight all come back to sway anyway?


----------



## Sean Woodruff

BoaterDan said:


> Sean, that's the answer I was looking for. You reject the premise of my question. Fair enough.
> 
> Carey's response kind of missed the point again, but I infer that he basically holds the same position as you.
> 
> I take your response to mean you believe sway is by far both the most common and dangerous "problem" with towing, and many of the other ones (like being somewhat underpowered and sluggish to get to freeway speed, for example) is relatively unimportant once the sway is eliminated.
> 
> But would there be a point where you'd have to just shake your head and turn away a customer? Somebody who has to have the tongue weight at 3% to keep the TV rear springs from bottom out or snapping in half?
> 
> If I accept your premise that you have to be talking about such an extreme condition in order for the sway not to be solving 99% of the problems, do you accept mine that there is at least theoretically a case where the person should simply never be on the road, pivot point hitch or not? Or is it that the problems like light tongue weight all come back to sway anyway?


Yes, there would be that point. I do have those conversations about lighter tow vehicles but none of them have ever been to the extreme that they would never be on the road. 95% of my customers already have the trailer when they call so they at least had a tow vehicle that they "thought" would handle the load.

As far as tongue weight goes I can tow a trailer with a negative tongue weight without sway. I have towed the flat bed, roughly 25', with the trailer loaded to the point that the tongue jack comes off the ground when unhitched.


----------



## clarkely

Sean Woodruff said:


> I get it, Dan. But, you are coming at it from the belief that Tow Ratings are the gospel and I happen to not believe that. I've had enough conversations with engineers that put tow ratings on vehicles, and test them, to know that it really isn't that exact of a science. I've also towed thousands of miles with a Lincoln Town Car (5,000lb tow rating) towing a 10,000lb Airstream without even a hint of it being a problem. So, I'm not one to comment on the validity of tow ratings because I have too much information to the contrary in my head. The only reason I don't comment on it is that I really don't need the aggravation of the debate and trying to convince anyone. I just don't have the time and I've learned that the vehicle manufacturers are like the Pope of manufacturing to the Catholics in the towing world. I'm not Catholic...


What everyone needs to remember is what Sean stated above............

Who gives you the Tow Ratings??? The Manufacturers..............If you look for example at a Honda pilot or Toyota sequoia's and compare them to some 1/2 ton pickups....... ratings are allover the place..........

A sequoia is rated to pull more than my 2500 Suburban (subs have been considered under rated by many)...It is a nice SUV and i do not mean anything bad...but it has coil springs, a lighter frame, shorter wheelbase, and a higher tow rating...........

The Tow rating's are very biased...........

Sway is the biggest single factor in trailer safety IMO. As far as getting on the highway quickly or up a hill...........you see that everyday on the road in cars & trucks not towing..........yes it has merit but would not be the single most important safety factor....IMO

My 2 cents for the day


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## rdvholtwood

Lots of GREAT discussion hear - and Sean GREAT video on trailer sway - do you have more?


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## Nathan

Wait, usually we pick on manufacturers for overly optimistic tow ratings. Now they are too conservative???


----------



## PDX_Doug

The problem with tow ratings - and I know I have harped on this before - is that they are misleading in regards to other factors about what can safely be towed. For example, say a vehicle has a tow rating of 6,000#... Well, there are a lot of different ways to subject it to a 6,000# load. I could have a big 25 foot travel trailer with a large sail area, a more aerodynamic boat, or even a small utility trailer loaded up with concrete blocks.

Now even though they both may weigh 6,000#, the stresses and strains that utility trailer is subjecting the TV to is not nearly what the TT is. The TV may be perfectly within it's capabilities with one, but not the other. So, what's the manufacturer to do? Should they say the vehicle is only capable of towing 4,500# because when it's 4,500# of TT that is really all it should be pulling around? Well, no. Because it is safe pulling around 6,000 pounds of bricks... and there are a lot of masonry contractors out there that need trucks. So to give the TV a 6,000# rating is both correct and ethical. That does not however change the fact that the TT may be too much for the vehicle.

The same logic can be applied to driving environments. A vehicle that can pull 6,000# easily in the flat lands at low elevations may be way out of it's league in the Rocky Mountains.

So, bottom line, tow ratings - as with most other things in life - should not be considered so black and white. There is a lot of gray that must be factored into the equation as well. And it's for exactly this reason that one should always leave a healthy margin between what the stated tow rating of a vehicle is and what they are actually trying to tow.

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## clarkely

Nathan said:


> Wait, usually we pick on manufacturers for overly optimistic tow ratings. Now they are too conservative???


.................Surely you have seen trucks that have a lower tow rating than they are capable of...............Suburbans are notorious for that.............especially when you compare to an expedition or any of the import SUV's.

You are aware of my point................ Some manufacturers are overly optimistic..................some are overly cautious..........

They are not independently rated nor as Doug added, are they considering all factors................


----------



## Carey

BoaterDan said:


> Sean, that's the answer I was looking for. You reject the premise of my question. Fair enough.
> 
> Carey's response kind of missed the point again, but I infer that he basically holds the same position as you.
> 
> I take your response to mean you believe sway is by far both the most common and dangerous "problem" with towing, and many of the other ones (like being somewhat underpowered and sluggish to get to freeway speed, for example) is relatively unimportant once the sway is eliminated.
> 
> But would there be a point where you'd have to just shake your head and turn away a customer? Somebody who has to have the tongue weight at 3% to keep the TV rear springs from bottom out or snapping in half?
> 
> If I accept your premise that you have to be talking about such an extreme condition in order for the sway not to be solving 99% of the problems, do you accept mine that there is at least theoretically a case where the person should simply never be on the road, pivot point hitch or not? Or is it that the problems like light tongue weight all come back to sway anyway?


No I dont hold the same position of Sean. I believe the most dangerous situation is tow vehicle stability and optimal weight distribution. Sway is totally controlled when you have these two overcome. Weight distribution allows the tow vehicle great stability and then the tow vehicle can command a trailer no matter its size.

His device is a piece of physics artistry. My device is a crude idea that attacks the problem using the mechanical power of an air bag and wheels. It uses the same crude ways of hauling a load in trucking.

If the load or weight is a problem, in trucking we simply add wheels to even out the load.

I dont feel there is a point that my device couldnt be used. Its up to the owner wheather he is happy with the power. No matter what, braking will be improved with my device, so brakes are a non issue. As long as the trailer brakes are working correctly there is no limit.

I used a Jeep Liberty to tow my Kargoroo weighing 7500lbs with a 1200lb tongue weight. The Jeep liberty had only 100 lbs of tongue weight hanging on its bumper. No it couldnt pull the load well powerwise, but it stopped great and was nimble and very easy to drive down the highway. Infact I drove this combo over 80mph for about an hour. No I didnt take pics cause I know in all of auto history something like this has never been done, and I knew what I'd get by showing that off..

My device allows the tow vehicle to overcome any issue of pulling a trailer by hard and crude optimal weight distribution. It also allows a 3-4 foot extension of wheelbase. It also turns the trailer into a full trailer(self supporting trailer) It also create a locking effect with the rear axle and my hitch from the seperation of axles. We also use axle seperation in trucking to stabilize our trucks and trailers when inherently bad combos are pulled.

You could actually move the trailers axle further to the rear using my device and even double the tongue weight of an average rv to make it tow in a way just like a semi does. Semis never sway because of the wheel set back and axle seperation.

So you could pull that 6000lb trailer and have a 1000lb tongue weight and use a 2000lb car to pull it. The car would only feel 100lbs of tongue weight.

So again Sean's device uses many more physics and my device just uses crude mechanics.

Both are very different but do stop all sway in the end. With mine giving the tow vehicle control to overcome sway by the use of a tag axle. No my device doesnt stop sway, but when used with any mass market wd/sway device turn the hitch into a deivice that totally controls sway.

Reason is having a set of wheels right at the point of the weight dist/sway bars allows the sway bars to become very strong arm like. The sway bars have much more strength when a set of wheels are mounted at the connection point..

So Dan, youve read way too much into what I have done.. Maybe for Sean there is a limit. With what I designed, the only limit is how comfortable the owner is with the engine power and abuse of the rest of the powertrain(I should say tranny not rear diff) My device turns the weight into pull weight and not down weight on the rear diff. So a differential from a 1/2 ton truck could be used to pull a 20000lb load and it would never hurt it.

My device works better the more you can load it. The only limit of weight is choosen by me, by using different air bags and hubs and wheels.

Yes my device could be over used. But it is what it is. It allows the tv to never know any weight of whatever trailer its pulling. So whatever the owner uses for I could care a less.. They will be totally safe reguardless of whatever they tow up to my 2000lb tongue weight limit I built into the hitch I designed.

I could double or triple that rating very easy..

So you need to look at our device like 2 different anaimals with mine a crude mechanical device and Seans a work of physics.

Carey


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## Nathan

clarkely said:


> Wait, usually we pick on manufacturers for overly optimistic tow ratings. Now they are too conservative???


.................Surely you have seen trucks that have a lower tow rating than they are capable of...............Suburbans are notorious for that.............especially when you compare to an expedition or any of the import SUV's.

You are aware of my point................ Some manufacturers are overly optimistic..................some are overly cautious..........

They are not independently rated nor as Doug added, are they considering all factors................
[/quote]
Ok, just another comment on this. Engineers don't set ratings, they design to meet them. If they are asked to design to a 10000lb tow rating, they do that. If the requirements are 2000, then they do that. If they are then asked if the tow rating can increase, then they check. Sometimes it's fine, and other times it requires changes. If changes are needed, then a cost vs increased profits is checked and the decision is made.

Each manufacturer holds to their own internal requirements which may cause some variation in ratings. Other times a different tradeoff was made such as a softer suspension for better ride or a smaller radiator because it may be cheaper. I can't speculate on the Burb's reasons , but can assure you that a lot of thought went into it.

Now recently cars have had soft suspensions and optimally designed powertrains for solo driving. If the market drives it, they will adapt and eventually become better tow vehicles. The consumer won't see it, but the engineers will be very busy.


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## clarkely

Nathan said:


> Ok, just another comment on this. Engineers don't set ratings, they design to meet them. If they are asked to design to a 10000lb tow rating, they do that. If the requirements are 2000, then they do that. If they are then asked if the tow rating can increase, then they check. Sometimes it's fine, and other times it requires changes. If changes are needed, then a cost vs increased profits is checked and the decision is made.
> 
> Each manufacturer holds to their own internal requirements which may cause some variation in ratings. Other times a different tradeoff was made such as a softer suspension for better ride or a smaller radiator because it may be cheaper. I can't speculate on the Burb's reasons ,* but can assure you that a lot of thought went into it. *
> 
> Now recently cars have had soft suspensions and optimally designed powertrains for solo driving. If the market drives it, they will adapt and eventually become better tow vehicles. The consumer won't see it, but the engineers will be very busy.


I do not mean to flame anybody or upset them................But i deal with engineers on a daily basis..............and more often than not.....if they actually applied some common sense to the calculations.............they would be better off........ Unfortunately to many are book smart and application stupid...........Not all But many......and it gets worse with each generation and the Computer models being run than actual real world application ;-) IMHO

I would not rest to sure any of the engineering had a lot of thought into it............... there is a lot of marketing or designing to what a falsified marketing plan says we should do..... but a lot of thought............

I will give you an example of the GM engineering............. a 3/4 ton Suburban........ Use? obviously towing with increased seating capacity.......... what else..............or the soccer mom who has an obese family of soccer players







LOL

The engineers get it up to a "rated 9300 lbs" yet they integrate the hitch into the rear crumple zone....... so no aftermarket hitch can be used..........then the engineers put a 1000 lb tongue rated hitch on it, when in their manual they talk about towing with a tongue wight of 12-15%............... which there hitch is not rated for..........

Don't get me wrong there is a lot of great engineering going on everyday in every industry............... and there is also a lot of bad engineering.............cutting a corner to meet a price point or to produce quicker or to meet a newer greener standard.

My Brother is a Professional Engineer, grew up in a Woodworking Family and business..........and can't hang a Pr-Hung door...........HE is the new generation........... of book smart and common sense defunct.......... I see more like him on a daily basis then i do of the good ones...........

Sorry for my Ramblings......... and i know your applications bring common sense as i can see that in your posts............... You are the good one in the sea of bad ones.......


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## clarkely

and on the new burb's hitch....the marketing people.....well they lift the tongue wight rating at 1500 lbs in the literature...............same as are other 04 1/2 ton suburban, and are 05 tahoe.............

They forgot to tell the engineers to build to that rating........... ;-)


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## Nathan

Whew, good thing I'm not a GM engineer!









(Just kidding guys)









P.S. I do hang my own doors too!


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## clarkely

Nathan said:


> Whew, good thing I'm not a GM engineer!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Just kidding guys)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. I do hang my own doors too!


 Now that there is funny







I figured i was safe with my GM example.........


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## Duanesz

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Its a wonder all this goes straight down the road. The rear set of wheels on the rear jeep are able to steer as they wish. Its all controlled with weight balance.
> 
> This trailer will allow a weight above 200,000lbs to be towed by a tractor with a weight rating of 100,000lbs combined.
> 
> Here is a pic of a steerable lift axle used on a semi trailer.
> 
> This would give an allowable weight of 40,000 spread over the 3 axles in most states.
> 
> In trucking, we simply bolt on more axles to spread the weight. No law against it except for maybe a permit.. Some states like michigan allow up to 200,000lb trailer weights as long as the weight is spread over the many mutiples of tires.
> 
> For interstate trucks adding an axle will allow 40,000 on the group of axles versus 34,000.
> 
> I have driven these and you never even know the trailer axle steers. You feel less bind in corners and thats it. It trails just fine going down the highway.
> 
> Many of these liftable steerable axles also have brakes so a driver must respect that. They wont wreck you but will cause the trailer to go more out of line than if the trailer had non steebale axles when braking hard in a curve.
> 
> Carey


I have loaded some of miller transports trucks with equipment before. The blue one in the pic above was similar to the one we loaded with a injection molding press. The weight of the press section was 115,000 lbs the trailer was outfitted to haul 300,000lbs. When I was talking to the driver he said the truck got 2miles per gallon empty and 1.5 mpg loaded.Pretty awesome stuff.

Duane


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## MJRey

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> When a trailer sways wildly it quickly overcomes any tow vehicle, no matter the size of the tow vehicle.
> 
> Carey


You're sure right about that. About 7 years ago when we had our popup (~3,300 lbs) I was adjusting the friction sway bar and was doing a test on a deserted 2-lane road near my home. I was going about 55 mph towing with my Ford Expedition (~6,000 lbs) and gave a rapid steering input and then straightened the steering wheel. That popup immediately took off swaying and it was all I could do to keep it straight and slow down. I was prepared for some sway but it still got out of hand very rapidly. It was very scary and in hindsight quite stupid on my part. I tightened up the friction device and increased the tongue weight and had no further problems but it showed me how a trailer almost half the weight of the tow vehicle could quickly gain the upper hand. It was really the tail wagging the dog. Fortunately the Outback has been far better behaved towing than the popup (Coleman Niagara) ever was.


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## Carey

MJRey said:


> When a trailer sways wildly it quickly overcomes any tow vehicle, no matter the size of the tow vehicle.
> 
> Carey


You're sure right about that. About 7 years ago when we had our popup (~3,300 lbs) I was adjusting the friction sway bar and was doing a test on a deserted 2-lane road near my home. I was going about 55 mph towing with my Ford Expedition (~6,000 lbs) and gave a rapid steering input and then straightened the steering wheel. That popup immediately took off swaying and it was all I could do to keep it straight and slow down. I was prepared for some sway but it still got out of hand very rapidly. It was very scary and in hindsight quite stupid on my part. I tightened up the friction device and increased the tongue weight and had no further problems but it showed me how a trailer almost half the weight of the tow vehicle could quickly gain the upper hand. It was really the tail wagging the dog. Fortunately the Outback has been far better behaved towing than the popup (Coleman Niagara) ever was.
[/quote]

lol... Yeah, it sure doesnt take much of a wiggle to start one swaying if things arent right..

We had a starcraft pop up that was just horrible.. It seemed like no matter what I done it was ready at anytime to just go crazy. We towed ours with a Aerostar long wheelbase eddie bauer and it would just toss that lil minivan all over the place. It was never much fun to load up and go camping.. Plus all I could think about was a bear getting us while we slept.. We didnt keep that lil pop up for maybe 18 months.

I have seen many pop up wrecks.. I guess its just the way they are built. And yep, ive seen a lil pop up spin a chevy 1/2 ton pickup all the way around. Thankfully it didnt flip it cause there was a family of 4 in that truck. I stopped and made sure they were ok, and the dad was so flipped out he actually had wet himself. He was so embarrased that after he said he was ok, I hopped in my semi and took back off. That lil pop up maybe weighed 3k and there pickup was an easy 6k cause he had the bed loaded with everything but the kitchen sink.

Carey


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## BoaterDan

Sean Woodruff said:


> Yes, there would be that point. I do have those conversations about lighter tow vehicles but none of them have ever been to the extreme that they would never be on the road. 95% of my customers already have the trailer when they call so they at least had a tow vehicle that they "thought" would handle the load.
> 
> As far as tongue weight goes I can tow a trailer with a negative tongue weight without sway. I have towed the flat bed, roughly 25', with the trailer loaded to the point that the tongue jack comes off the ground when unhitched.


OK cool, that answers one of my questions too. In your opinion and experience, it's sway that is the big concern with appropriate tongue weight anyway. Now that I think about it, I've experienced that myself. I've posted before about needing to play around with the loading between my fore and aft garages (both huge) to get to the right "sweet spot" on the tongue weight. It made a lot of difference in the stability.

Although, for the sake of completeness, you left out the detail of the overall weight of that flatbed. I'm pretty sure I could pull an empty 25-foot flatbed with negative tongue weight and barely feel it back there.


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## BoaterDan

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> I dont feel there is a point that my device couldnt be used. Its up to the owner wheather he is happy with the power. No matter what, braking will be improved with my device, so brakes are a non issue. As long as the trailer brakes are working correctly there is no limit.


Well, at least I see the core difference in our perspectives now. I understand everything you explained, and accept it for what you mean.

However, THIS DRIVER believes (based on many years of personal experience and the research I mentioned previously) that a severely underpowered tow configuration on the freeway adds significantly to the risk of everybody on it. I'd rather he not take that thing on the freeway at all, and that he not be encouraged to think it's OK to do so because at least he won't have sway, after all.

I think we understand each other and can just leave it at that difference of opinion.

Now, having said that, can we discuss another area that to me would SEEM to be a major problem? Going down hills. What are the consequences or benefits of using either of these solutions as trailer length/weight increases and the TV's decreases when going down a hill. Is that ultimately mostly about sway too?


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## clarkely

BoaterDan said:


> Going down hills. What are the consequences or benefits of using either of these solutions as trailer length/weight increases and the TV's decreases when going down a hill. Is that ultimately mostly about sway too?


I would have to say that is a non issue..........

No matter what Hitch you are using as long as everything is functional, your TV is designed to stop itself, and the TT is designed to stop itself..............both independently designed to handle their own mass. It does require that the gain and or boost be set properly, as well as the proper tongue weight and WD bar settings to ensure you are transferring the correct weight to the front axle. If set up properly there will be some drop off or increased braking distance but it would be marginal...........there are so many other factors that could enter.....both positively and negatively to smaller and larger vehicles.

In a converging hitch design would have nothing to do with braking, except keeping you tracking better as you are doing so.

In carey's design you would still have increased braking, shorter distance...........TV would have all of its braking power, and you would have an extra set of brakes and wheels hitting the road........

These are my observations that i derived from all of the research i was doing into the two designs a year and a 1/2 ago before purchasing one.....


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## Sean Woodruff

BoaterDan said:


> OK cool, that answers one of my questions too. In your opinion and experience, it's sway that is the big concern with appropriate tongue weight anyway. Now that I think about it, I've experienced that myself. I've posted before about needing to play around with the loading between my fore and aft garages (both huge) to get to the right "sweet spot" on the tongue weight. It made a lot of difference in the stability.
> 
> Although, for the sake of completeness, you left out the detail of the overall weight of that flatbed. I'm pretty sure I could pull an empty 25-foot flatbed with negative tongue weight and barely feel it back there.


Yes, I believe the pivot point is the issue regardless of "proper" tongue weight or not. The problem with playing around with loading to find the "sweet spot" is that your tongue weight changes with road conditions. The static tongue weight does not change but your dynamic tongue weight is variable. As soon as you crest a hill the tongue weight changes. I don't believe finding a "sweet spot" is far enough away from the fault line but that is just my risk tolerance.

To make it complete, the flat bed was variable weights up to approximately 10,000lbs. We were loading it with 55 gallon drums of concrete block to change the weights.


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## Sean Woodruff

rdvholtwood said:


> Lots of GREAT discussion hear - and Sean GREAT video on trailer sway - do you have more?


Thank you!

I have one on Towing Definitions

This one is actually before the Trailer Sway Causes video.

I WILL have more up after I get a chance to edit some of the others. I need to do some editing this weekend.


----------



## Nathan

clarkely said:


> Going down hills. What are the consequences or benefits of using either of these solutions as trailer length/weight increases and the TV's decreases when going down a hill. Is that ultimately mostly about sway too?


I would have to say that is a non issue..........

No matter what Hitch you are using as long as everything is functional, your TV is designed to stop itself, and the TT is designed to stop itself..............both independently designed to handle their own mass. It does require that the gain and or boost be set properly, as well as the proper tongue weight and WD bar settings to ensure you are transferring the correct weight to the front axle. If set up properly there will be some drop off or increased braking distance but it would be marginal...........there are so many other factors that could enter.....both positively and negatively to smaller and larger vehicles.

In a converging hitch design would have nothing to do with braking, except keeping you tracking better as you are doing so.

In carey's design you would still have increased braking, shorter distance...........TV would have all of its braking power, and you would have an extra set of brakes and wheels hitting the road........

These are my observations that i derived from all of the research i was doing into the two designs a year and a 1/2 ago before purchasing one.....
[/quote]

I agree with this for normal driving. For mountains however the equation changes substantially. I have not tried Carey's braking technique, and it might solve much of the problem, but most of us towing in the mountains are relying heavily on engine braking to keep the speeds in check. It is easier for me to descend a hill (lets say a 20 mile long 6% downgrade) with my 5'er than it was with a pop up just because the truck has the tow haul mode.

Now DW's Flex has a hill descent control on it, so maybe this is coming to the smaller vehicles and will solve this issue for everyone, but until it does, I think downhills are still a big deal.


----------



## clarkely

Nathan said:


> I agree with this for normal driving. For mountains however the equation changes substantially. I have not tried Carey's braking technique, and it might solve much of the problem, but most of us towing in the mountains are relying heavily on engine braking to keep the speeds in check. It is easier for me to descend a hill (lets say a 20 mile long 6% downgrade) with my 5'er than it was with a pop up just because the truck has the tow haul mode.
> 
> Now DW's Flex has a hill descent control on it, so maybe this is coming to the smaller vehicles and will solve this issue for everyone, but until it does, I think downhills are still a big deal.


Yes my observations experience is not involving that long of a descent........... Where you can run an increased chance of toasting the roters........... In my case GM does do a good job of transmission braking...............

Would be better if i had a diesel and exhaust brake.........

Most 1/2 tons & SUV's have a tow haul mode that incorporates some type/form of transmission braking......

Does the Flex's hill descent control work effectively on it?


----------



## Nathan

clarkely said:


> Does the Flex's hill descent control work effectively on it?


Don't know really. We don't have big hills around us and I'm still looking for a 5er hitch for it.


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## clarkely

Nathan said:


> We don't have big hills around us and I'm still looking for a 5er hitch for it.


Smart A







I was speaking in general........... i Figured you would have some graphs and data available for all of the testing


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## Collinsfam_WY

Flex + 5'er? I think Momma is looking at a new grocery getter/tow vehicle!!! WTG NATHAN!!!

-CC


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## BoaterDan

As far as the potential downhill problems, I wasn't referring to braking/stopping but rather just the push forces on the TV. Do either of these solutions change that in any significant way, or does the "push" from the TT when going down a hill even matter all that much on the stability?


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## Carey

BoaterDan said:


> As far as the potential downhill problems, I wasn't referring to braking/stopping but rather just the push forces on the TV. Do either of these solutions change that in any significant way, or does the "push" from the TT when going down a hill even matter all that much on the stability?


I agree with all you guys. You shouldnt be towing with a vehicle that cant handle all of the situations including braking. I feel towing shouldnt be done by nothing smaller than a 3/4 ton either.

Even I could never afford a 3/4 ton. I couldnt afford to buy a used one at the time because of higher interest rates and shorter loan terms. So I bought a 1/2 ton dodge and over loaded the heck out of and found it wasnt very comfortable, not becasue of the power, not because of the brakes, but because of all the weight of my roo(1200lbs)

So I got to thinking and since I love to build stuff out of metal came up with what I did to fix the problem...

Should have I even been buying a truck and rv? Nope, cause I had to strain to afford it.. But most of us are in this boat. Still, no excuse for not buying the right TV.

We live in a time where rv'ing is an expensive hobby, but it prolly always has been.

Prolly 1/3rd of all rv'ers are in my boat and tow with a vehicle not up to the task. So my feeling is, devices to make them safer might be sellable..

On the downhill braking. We all use our engines as much as our brakes.. If you are towing over your ratings, the engine braking is less, the more you are over your ratings.

For instance, using a jeep liberty to go off Vail Pass with a 7500lb trailer would just be crazy.. For one Im not even sure it would make it to the top, lol But the downhill part would be flat scarry as the engine braking would be nothing.. You would have to descend in like 1st gear and maybe 20mph not to just fry the brakes.

Nathan mentioned that our vehicles are being engineered as solo vehicles, but may go back to having some engineered for doing some towing someday. I cant see that happening for a good while as the CAFE standards are going much higher, and emissions are getting tighter every year.

So we are gonna be seeing vehicles like Touregs towing 30 footers more and more.. I dont like it a bit, cause people can hardly handle big 30 footers with 1/2 tons and suv's as a general rule. Now shrink the tv and towing will get even more dangerous. I feel the next 10 years we will see big changes both in rv's and tv's. The problem of the trailer overtaking the tv isnt going away and will get worse..

I totally agree with Clark on the engineer problem, but I think its gonna get worse.

Im with ya Dan on not feeling safe either, but what are we gonna do about it?

The hitch I designed is meant to be used for people like me, that were happy with there braking and power, just not happy with the weight. But we all know people, if there is a device out there that would allow towing what I had with a Jeep Liberty, people are gonna try it, and keep pushing the limits more and more. So in the end a device like mine prolly even isnt marketable because everyone in the world would prolly sue me for making them feel so secure. The braking problem isnt going away even if I installed brakes on my hitch.. Without engine braking a hill would be like a mountain. Scarry.

Man you guys are sharp and its great being on place we all can chat about such in depth stuff without a forest fire.. I love this place..

I got me a trailer up to Baraboo, Wi so I better get it up there.

Yeah, Im a bad guy, Im towing a 29 footer with no wd bars hooked up.. My dually maybe dropped 1 inch with this trailer so I figured I dont even need em.. I better get out there on the highway and see what she does.. Yeah, Im no different, I push all the limits too..

Carey


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## Carey

Hey Sean, While I was driving up here to Wisconsin tonight, I thought of a question.

I had looked into having a Society of Automotive Engineers test J-684 done for hitches and couplers on my hitch. They wanted like 15-2000 for each angle. One was straight down, one was sideways and one was a twist. I found a place in Iowa that would do it, and they were also registered with SAE and had done many J tests before.

They were gonna video it for me too. This would find the exact breaking or failure point in each angle. They could give it a Class rating too after finding the breaking/failure point. I know my hitch would make class 5 or higher, well there is no higher.. lol I thought it would be fun to let people see the thing get destroyed and let em see what it took to do it.

NHTSA said the test was optional, but if I had one done, they would like a copy for there records.

Have you ever had the J-684 test done on yours?

Carey


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## Sean Woodruff

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Have you ever had the J-684 test done on yours?
> 
> Carey


No. The only "testing" we've done is putting it through more than any "reasonable" customer would ever think of doing.

Potential customers don't like the price now, I wonder how many would like to pay an additional $200 per hitch (guessing at that but the general idea holds) to know it is tested to those specs.


----------



## CamperAndy

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Hey Sean, While I was driving up here to Wisconsin tonight, I thought of a question.
> 
> I had looked into having a Society of Automotive Engineers test J-684 done for hitches and couplers on my hitch. They wanted like 15-2000 for each angle. One was straight down, one was sideways and one was a twist. I found a place in Iowa that would do it, and they were also registered with SAE and had done many J tests before.
> 
> They were gonna video it for me too. This would find the exact breaking or failure point in each angle. They could give it a Class rating too after finding the breaking/failure point. I know my hitch would make class 5 or higher, well there is no higher.. lol I thought it would be fun to let people see the thing get destroyed and let em see what it took to do it.
> 
> NHTSA said the test was optional, but if I had one done, they would like a copy for there records.
> 
> Have you ever had the J-684 test done on yours?
> 
> Carey


Maybe that test would tell what would happen with a leaf spring failure?


----------



## Carey

It would only be about 6000 to have it done... I never thought it would add anythig to the price.. Thats part of introducing something new was my thinkin.. I couldnt sleep at night if I couldnt have mine tested. I know how strong it is, but would always worry if I couldnt see the thing being broke at so many 1000's of pounds.. This was another reason I have back shlelved mine..

I want to do it right.. I want my hitch to have a 17 digit VIN and be registered with NHTSA and have all tests done and put a conforms to all applicable FMVSS standards for combination tag axles and converter dollies, for what model year Im in.. Another label would say that this device has been tested to SAE J684 class 5 standards. It would also have the standard fed required tire labels and weight ratings in a label too..

Yes it costs some but wouldnt it be neat to know the failure point of your hitch Sean.. It would be really neat to see the test on a video on your website..

I dont know, but I cant even imagine going any further till I have this done.

I would love to have mine put on a test track in Nevada too.. Now that would cost 100k.. I also wanted this and if I ever find an investor this will have to be included for us to partner up.. Its another I wouldnt be able to sleep at night thing if I couldnt see the failure problems on a professional test track..

Everything has its limits, and I feel no automotive part, especially a hitch shouldnt be available to the public without SAE J-684 tests done and have a class rating imprinted on the hitch at very minimum...

So Im sorry Sean, I could never buy your hitch unless I saw that label...

Every hitch product we buy has a passes SAE J684 label and or class rating and or a weight rating.. Anything works, but for them to knowthe ratings it has went thru a SAE J684 test..

I would suggest you do this because if you dont you are set up for a lawsuit if something ever goes wrong..

I hate to be mean, but I thought you have already done all this.. In fact I never ever thought you hadnt at minimum had it SAE J684 tested..

All of our eq w/d sway type hithes have a rating on them. And one reason I use an Equalizer brand hitch shank is because it has a known rating and failure point of 4000lbs tongue weight.. All of the brands have been tested to the rating on the label so we as a public need not worry and can be rest assured that if we stay under that rating, our hitch is safe.. Not to say there still isnt failures, but with all the labling done you have further protected yourself.

Something else is DOT would fine me if I were using a hitch part that didnt have a class rating or weight rating imprinted on a label for them to see. Commercial rules say we have to have this... So your hitch isnt able to be used on commercial applications..

Carey


----------



## Sean Woodruff

Well, I know of at least two other competitors that have never done it either...









Here are some things to consider, Carey.

In business, EVERYTHING you do adds to the price. If it doesn't, you won't be IN business very long.

There isn't any part in the world that won't break under the proper conditions. The testing does nothing to insure it will not break. I can give you at least 10 examples of hitch receivers failing.

Finally, even with the testing, if your hitch breaks and causes damage you are getting sued anyway. Even with the testing. The testing will then have to be completed AGAIN and when all is said and done your product liability company WILL settle with the person suing you. Your testing will have nothing to do with you not being sued and won't help when you are.

Those are just the true facts. You can talk all you want about the testing and how it will benefit your hitch but in the end it means nothing if an attorney decides to come after you.


----------



## Carey

Sean Woodruff said:


> Well, I know of at least two other competitors that have never done it either...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some things to consider, Carey.
> 
> In business, EVERYTHING you do adds to the price. If it doesn't, you won't be IN business very long.
> 
> There isn't any part in the world that won't break under the proper conditions. The testing does nothing to insure it will not break. I can give you at least 10 examples of hitch receivers failing.
> 
> Finally, even with the testing, if your hitch breaks and causes damage you are getting sued anyway. Even with the testing. The testing will then have to be completed AGAIN and when all is said and done your product liability company WILL settle with the person suing you. Your testing will have nothing to do with you not being sued and won't help when you are.
> 
> Those are just the true facts. You can talk all you want about the testing and how it will benefit your hitch but in the end it means nothing if an attorney decides to come after you.


It wouldnt benefit my hitch... It would benefit my sleep and benefit a customer to know it is safe to a certain weight.. The SAE test is cheap.. Yes your getting sued anyway, but I could be rest assured in my mind I done everything and actually went beyond all I could do for a customer..

I know you care about your customers... Why would this even be an arguement for you? Man this world isnt all about money is it? I say screw the money.. Souls are more important..

I guess I think different and that way I havenet went on with mine... It not about my hitch, its all about others and I guess Im just different and weird..

If someone died because they unknowingly overloaded what I had sold them I would just as soon die too..

Sorry Sean, I feel you have no excuses.. Yeah my forest fire has started here and I better shut this computer off and go haul my trailer to illinios..


----------



## Sean Woodruff

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> It wouldnt benefit my hitch... It would benefit my sleep and benefit a customer to know it is safe to a certain weight.. The SAE test is cheap.. Yes your getting sued anyway, but I could be rest assured in my mind I done everything and actually went beyond all I could do for a customer..
> 
> I know you care about your customers... Why would this even be an arguement for you? Man this world isnt all about money is it? I say screw the money.. Souls are more important..
> 
> I guess I think different and that way I havenet went on with mine... It not about my hitch, its all about others and I guess Im just different and weird..
> 
> If someone died because they unknowingly overloaded what I had sold them I would just as soon die too..
> 
> Sorry Sean, I feel you have no excuses.. Yeah my forest fire has started here and I better shut this computer off and go haul my trailer to illinios..


I'm not arguing with you, Carey. Really, I'm not. I understand where you are coming from.

I have loaded what we produce to a FAR greater load than any trailer produced. How could anyone unknowingly overload my hitch? Even knowing, some will overload it so what if they die and you did know?

I sleep VERY well at night with what I sell to customers. I have been personally responsible for selling THOUSANDS of hitches that have never been in a sway induced accident. Read around. I don't have any problem with what I sell, or have sold, customers. I'm affecting so many souls, as you say, in a positive manner I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

Let me throw some water on your fire... how well do you sleep knowing how great your hitch is, and how many people need it, while not producing it and selling it to them? So, if I have no excuses, what's yours?


----------



## Carey

Mine is money thats why I dont sell it... IF i cant find someone that doesnt believe in my device as much as I do, AND beleives in putting it thru every professional test known to man to be sure that it works in all conditions without no problems we will then sell it..

Till then I will shelve it... Let someone bring it out... I will have no part of it... Im a happy guy with my life and even though Im poor, I dont care, Im happy and am not gonna reengineer the thing as I go while using other peoples lives to do it.. Seeing my device failing for some unknown reason and causing someone a wreck would kill me... I will never change from this thinking..

If I cant do it the way I want, I will let someone else make it.. I will continue to be happy and keep buzzing ears that there are other ways to make towing safe..

I have put 50k of my own money in it and give away quite a few. I have never charged a buck cause my hitch is only a prototype.. I take that back.. One guy in New Mexico made me take his money for the parts price I had invested. and my 3 day trip while teaching him my knowledge... For that he forced me to take 1600 dollars.. I had 1500 in the hitch..

I used that money to go to Curtis's house and spend a weekend with him and set his up..

I have paid all of the shipping and everything.... Never taken a single buck other than that.

People are weary about all of these devices.. Showing people that you believe so much that you will show it being destroyed and show it in wild high speed manuevers on a pro test track will allow them to have any questions answered about this still thought about voodoo technology..

In trucking we NEVER try a product without extreme testing... I am a trucker... What more can I say.. Everything we use is extreme tested to allow us men to put an 80,000lb rig into the 80mph wind and not be worried about not seeing our kids grow up tomorrow.. Most regular people never think about the amount of trust a truck driver puts into the products he uses and the truck and trailer he uses.. We know for a fact the whole bucket of bolts is engineered on the extreme side so we may work without fear of all that weight killing us..

My hitch will be no different... It will be extreme tested to be totally sure it will withstand towing anything with anything at 80 or more mph..

Because the thing works so good you can do 80mph all day and use one finger to do it.. Thats a real problem!

So, being that it works this good, people will continue to push it further and further... I will NEVER allow them to find its limits... I will find its limits 1st...

You can take sweeping curves at the actual speed limit with this thing... The trailer cant push you... The yellow info signs mean nothing anymore.. And again, thats another huge problem.. Cause people will flip out and start going faster and faster till they crash.. I need to see a crash with the thing before I sell it.. I need to see if at one point the weight of the trailer will overcome my device.. I have tried and tried... I cant find its limits..

I have put it thru everything my gonads can muster.. Its now ready for a bigger man to test it..

No Money means no further testing and that means I aint selling nothing!

I still got 200 miles to get this 32 footer off my back.. I better get to work!

Carey


----------



## Sean Woodruff

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Mine is money thats why I dont sell it... IF i cant find someone that doesnt believe in my device as much as I do, AND beleives in putting it thru every professional test known to man to be sure that it works in all conditions without no problems we will then sell it..
> 
> Till then I will shelve it... Let someone bring it out... I will have no part of it... Im a happy guy with my life and even though Im poor, I dont care, Im happy and am not gonna reengineer the thing as I go while using other peoples lives to do it.. Seeing my device failing for some unknown reason and causing someone a wreck would kill me... I will never change from this thinking..
> 
> If I cant do it the way I want, I will let someone else make it.. I will continue to be happy and keep buzzing ears that there are other ways to make towing safe..
> 
> I have put 50k of my own money in it and give away quite a few. I have never charged a buck cause my hitch is only a prototype.. I take that back.. One guy in New Mexico made me take his money for the parts price I had invested. and my 3 day trip while teaching him my knowledge... For that he forced me to take 1600 dollars.. I had 1500 in the hitch..
> 
> I used that money to go to Curtis's house and spend a weekend with him and set his up..
> 
> I have paid all of the shipping and everything.... Never taken a single buck other than that.
> 
> People are weary about all of these devices.. Showing people that you believe so much that you will show it being destroyed and show it in wild high speed manuevers on a pro test track will allow them to have any questions answered about this still thought about voodoo technology..
> 
> In trucking we NEVER try a product with extreme testing... I am a trucker... What more can I say.. Everything we use is extreme tested to allow us men to put an 80,000lb rig into the 80mph wind and not be worried about not seeing our kids grow up tomorrow.. Most regular people never think about the amount of trust a truck driver puts into the products he uses and the truck and trailer he uses.. We know for a fact the whole bucket of bolts is engineered on the extreme side so we may work without fear of all that weight killing us..
> 
> My hitch will be no different... It will be extreme tested to be totally sure it will withstand towing anything with anything at 80 or more mph..
> 
> Because the thing works so good you can do 80mph all day and use one finger to do it.. Thats a real problem!
> 
> So, being that it works this good, people will continue to push it further and further... I will NEVER allow them to find its limits... I will find its limits 1st...
> 
> So far I havent found them.. I have put it thru everything my gonads can muster.. Its now ready for a bigger man to test it..
> 
> No Money means no further testing and that means I aint selling nothing!
> 
> I still got 200 miles to get this 32 footer off my back..
> 
> Carey


It's just too bad that the people out there that need it will never be able to have the benefit of using it. You don't feel the risk of them not using it is as great as the risk of you putting it out there for them to use it. You argue that the risk is too great for them and you BUT I believe you can test it as well as anyone else and produce a safe product.

As for my product, I'm not sure why my engineering skills and knowledge would be trumped by a testing engineer. I AM a graduate engineer with the same credentials as most of them. I have passed part one of the P.E. exam and just never had the need to pass part two.


----------



## CamperAndy

I would still like to know what would happen. We all know EVERY hitch produced has failed but it never hurts to know what that failure point is. Otherwise without testing we would never see all those commercials with Saab's and Mercedes and Honda's crashing into brick walls. We all know those cars are built well it is just nice to see them tested to the ultimate extreme.


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## Sean Woodruff

The testing I would be more interested in participating in would be with an Equalizer, a Reese Dual-Cam and my hitch. Each company could contribute 1/3 of the cost of the testing and the reports would be made public for everyone to read.

The test would include 50, 55, 60, 65, 70MPH lane changes. Wind forces applied to the side of the trailer. Evasive maneuvers at highway speeds.


----------



## Carey

I dont care how much school ya got...

If you are not certified to do ASE testing than you should pay to have it tested. In fact every hitch maker is a good standing member of SAE.. In all of automotive, SAE is what we live by and there testing IS the industry standard for every auto part and automotive device in the USA.. Its not even right to be saying you are at an equal to them, because no matter how great you are, you aint..

Like dude, every hitch product available has at Least went thru SAE testing.. If you feel you are better, man thats not right... It just baffles me that someone would put a product out in the world to be used by families and not step up to every outside test available to them to further make positively sure that his product will never injure someone because a person overused it beyond what you ever thought..And yes, even you cant come up with every scenario your product may see..

Boy some world we live in anymore... Its just not right....

Just because you are an engineer too, doesnt mean anything as far as SAE feels.. SAE is here to help us... Its here to set standards that people like you and I should go thru to know our product is at least as strong as what SAE has set for a spec of weight and stress.. Doesnt matter if you or I think it already is... What matters is having the gnads to step up and give em a few and let em destroy them all on your cost to allow us as the public to be able to see that something we are intersted in meets the standards of all other auto products in the USA..

All hitch products are engineered by someone, and all of them end up being certified to the adverstised weight/stress rating by SAE testing labs.

I feel after SAE testing is done, then its time to do hitch testing on the road and one can have a shootout and see what is best..

Nope, even if my hitch could save everyone, without extreme testing by people other than me it should never be sold.. Dude I built mine in a garage and im a hobbyist metal working guy.. I could never ever put a device out there that wasnt put thru the ringer by every testing lab I could find to put it thru.. I dont feel no matter how great it is, its just not fair to the public.. There is a unknown to my hitch and that unknown is its breaking and stress point, and the other unknown is what happens in a crash, or what happens when a spring like Andys fails..

I can sit here all day and say it will be fine, but the only way I truely know is paying testing labs to put it to there standards of testing..

I refuse to put something out there that I or anyone doesnt know its extreme limits in stress, weight rating and road manners. Something as new as I done wouldnt be fair to the public to tell them "I have tested it and I certify it" Nope, Nope, no good enough for me, not good enough for all..

I put some out there because I wanted to see if what I thought was what a few people thought... And the answer was Yep! I also had an idea to try one on the back of a 5er. Well I found a guy crazy enough to agree to try it... Come to find out it cured every issue he had.. He loves it!

But that does not give ME the ok to go ahead and put it out there because all of us who tried/trying like it..

I have taken my hitch to the point of now finding someone who believes that my product can truely change the safety factor of towing.. That someone would know he is looking at a prototype and that someone will also agree that it needs professional testing and that testing should be made available to all who wish to see it..

If I dont find that someone I will NEVER go on with it.. I will shelve it and continue to build other goofy things in my garage... One day I will find someone that bites on one of my strange ideas and we will go have fun and do everything right and people will be thankful for that..

Money doesnt mean much to me.. I have built so many screwball things in my life that sitting down with a welder and a cut off saw is my heaven..

I am now designing a car trailer that could be put in the bed or on the roof of a pick up and be then set on the ground, folded out and be used to tow a 5000lb car...

I need this device for my work.. That way I could haul a single car back to Indy with me and get all my return fuel paid for.. Yep, again, knowone has done it.. So I will... RV haulers would love to have this.. So I will go show em it can be done.. It prolly wont change anything, but I can tell ya Im having a whole lot of fun doing it..

When the economy comes back, I will continue to seek some help with my hitch.. Till then I will just be doing what Ive always done and thats just have fun.. I will never waiver to not having it further tested so I know without a doubt it meets all industry standards..

Sorrry Sean.. I would have never guessed you felt like you do.. Its ok I guess..


----------



## CamperAndy

Sean Woodruff said:


> The testing I would be more interested in participating in would be with an Equalizer, a Reese Dual-Cam and my hitch. Each company could contribute 1/3 of the cost of the testing and the reports would be made public for everyone to read.
> 
> The test would include 50, 55, 60, 65, 70MPH lane changes. Wind forces applied to the side of the trailer. Evasive maneuvers at highway speeds.


Add a down grade with a turn and your typical poorly adjusted brakes on the trailer and a driver slowing down the TV.

I wonder what TV and trailer size you and the other manufactures would agree on for the testing?? I suspect there would not be an agreement.

And I know I am a pain but could you also add wheel and leaf spring failures at highway speed to the mix when you guys get down to the testing.

I doubt you will see much difference in all the tests with the exception of the evasive move, the down hill turn and the leaf spring failure. Those three will have the greatest differences. Oh well too bad we won't ever see any of those tests done but it would be interesting.


----------



## Carey

Ok, I cant resist saying it.....

Andy, You asked us to stick around on this thread and somtimes these long threads bear fruit..

Well..... The fruit is on the tree..

I feel the same as you Andy...

Carey


----------



## BoaterDan

We've very indirectly hinted at the idea of some real-world testing in this thread and prior ones, more of an informal get-together kind of thing.

Heck, I'd be willing to put in the first $100 to see the kind of test being described here with those major alternative hitches. We only need about 100 more people to join in, eh?









Sean and Carey, I'm getting what both of you are saying. I think I'm leaning to Sean's side slightly though. If I'd put 10,000 pounds of tongue weight on the hitch and then beat the hell out of it, I think I'd sleep just fine at night knowing I'm not going to cause any deaths because of a physical failure. Isn't that good enough Carey?

I also understand what you're saying about wanting the certificaiton. Who buys an extension cord even without that label? But at some point, with some products, that becomes just a marketing point - especially when the average consumer will have absolutely no idea what the test even was or means. Does a lawnmower manufacturer really need to have tests done to see what happens when you stick an arm underneath while it's running? Nobody in their right mind should do that, and everybody should know how stupid it is. If somebody does, they're going to sue you anyway, and you'll likely settle out of court. Now, the point with the hitches is that nobody in their right mind should/would ever put forces on that thing beyond what you're able to test yourself. Saying it will break with 35,000 pounds of tongue weight really does ZERO to make it safer in the real world or make anybody using it feel safer (because they'll never care about what that spec means or read the details of the test anyway).

Finally, I take your last comment to be a dig at Sean and perhaps all the other manufacturers. *IF SO*, frankly it's rather illogical. You're not going to sell your hitch because you can't get this test done, but the only alternative for consumers is to use one of these other hitches which have not been tested. And you won't sell them but you've given away several. If you're not sure it's safe, how do you sleep at night after putting those users at risk of failure? How does all that make sense logically?

That's just my opinion as a neutral observor of this discussion.


----------



## PDX_Doug

NOTE TO ALL PARTICIPANTS:

To date this thread has remained both informative and civil.
Let's make sure it stays that way.

Thank you,
Doug


----------



## Sean Woodruff

Carey got me thinking with his "ALL hitches on the road are tested to the SAE specs" so I got on the phone with a guy who imports 100,000+ weight distribution hitches from China EVERY YEAR and sells them to many of the big names you would know. They slap their sticker on it. He has worked for many of the largest, and THE largest, hitch companies in the country over the last 30+ years.

You might be able to guess if any of his hitches he sells have been tested.

Sorry, Carey. I understand where you are coming from but it's not based in reality. I'm also sorry that people wrecking a trailer WITHOUT your hitch is more okay than the risk you would take by manufacturing and selling them. You can get on a pedestal on the highest peak in the Rockies and talk about how you would be crushed if the hitch broke and injured someone but that is an excuse. You can design it for greater loads than anyone could ever apply and not have a problem.

As for how "terrible" I am for not having the hitch tested. How many lives so you think I have saved by selling an orange hitch or a 3P? I can tell you there are many, MANY stories. I guess they should have just been allowed to roll their trailer, and possibly lose their lives, until the hitch was tested by a group of "testing engineers."


----------



## Nathan

I'd like to try to add personal experiences here. There is an argument for 2 different things happening here.

1st is Carey's comment on structural rig testing. These tests are run to verify that the correct materials were chosen for the parts, and the correct cross sectional area was designed in for the given materials and worse case loads. Not knowing any specifics, typically, one designs in a safety factor of 1.5-2.0 (i.e. the part can take twice the worse case loading it should ever experience). This type of testing tends to be relatively cheap (sorry guys, but $6k is a bargain for what we are talking about).

2nd is Sean's and Carey's comments on vehicle level testing for performance. It's expensive and complex to try every different scenario, as I'm sure both Sean and Carey can attest to.

Can you replace rig testing with vehicle level? Mostly. 
However to do it correctly, you will have to run all of these overstressed conditions in addition to the more typical conditions. This get's even more expensive. Additionally, you really need rig testing to find the limits of your design. Only there can you gradually increase a load until failure and therefore know exactly where the breaking point is. If you run vehicle testing at a safety factor of 2 and it passes, you still do not know how strong your part is, just how weak it isn't. 
Yes, this is a subtle difference for the average consumer, but this knowledge is critical for the future when you want to upgrade performance or reduce cost and weight. Rig testing also allows you to easlity compare performance of an imported part (like in Sean's example) and demonstrate that it is equivalent to the original design.

Again, these are just my opinions, but in my experience they can really lead to best in class quality of the end product.


----------



## clarkely

PDX_Doug said:


> NOTE TO ALL PARTICIPANTS:
> 
> To date this thread has remained both informative and civil.
> Let's make sure it stays that way.
> 
> Thank you,
> Doug


Well said!! I was worried someone had hacked carey's membership









I would personally would rather buy material/device/hitch from a small company, in the case of a hitch ....the Hog or 3p........ IMHO i am getting Common sense engineered (as well as rig tested) products..............where they have actualy used it and it works!! Experience is key to me........... then i am a small business owner..........

I see more often than not............. a product tested and warranted to the hilt............... and all that paper work is good for one thing....wiping your..... runny nose







IMHO, because the best goes to testing...........then the cost cutting starts.............can we get this grade steel cheaper here, what can we cheapen there......... That is Big business...........

I like Common sense proven engineering........... A prototype is devised tested and then the specs are walked on and farmed out to get it to market...........

Back to work for me


----------



## Carey

BoaterDan said:


> We've very indirectly hinted at the idea of some real-world testing in this thread and prior ones, more of an informal get-together kind of thing.
> 
> Heck, I'd be willing to put in the first $100 to see the kind of test being described here with those major alternative hitches. We only need about 100 more people to join in, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sean and Carey, I'm getting what both of you are saying. I think I'm leaning to Sean's side slightly though. If I'd put 10,000 pounds of tongue weight on the hitch and then beat the hell out of it, I think I'd sleep just fine at night knowing I'm not going to cause any deaths because of a physical failure. Isn't that good enough Carey?
> 
> I also understand what you're saying about wanting the certificaiton. Who buys an extension cord even without that label? But at some point, with some products, that becomes just a marketing point - especially when the average consumer will have absolutely no idea what the test even was or means. Does a lawnmower manufacturer really need to have tests done to see what happens when you stick an arm underneath while it's running? Nobody in their right mind should do that, and everybody should know how stupid it is. If somebody does, they're going to sue you anyway, and you'll likely settle out of court. Now, the point with the hitches is that nobody in their right mind should/would ever put forces on that thing beyond what you're able to test yourself. Saying it will break with 35,000 pounds of tongue weight really does ZERO to make it safer in the real world or make anybody using it feel safer (because they'll never care about what that spec means or read the details of the test anyway).
> 
> Finally, I take your last comment to be a dig at Sean and perhaps all the other manufacturers. *IF SO*, frankly it's rather illogical. You're not going to sell your hitch because you can't get this test done, but the only alternative for consumers is to use one of these other hitches which have not been tested. And you won't sell them but you've given away several. If you're not sure it's safe, how do you sleep at night after putting those users at risk of failure? How does all that make sense logically?
> 
> That's just my opinion as a neutral observor of this discussion.


Again your reading too much into what Im saying Dan...

Every hitch that has been invented has had a SAE test done at some point in time... Yea since things have went to China, we will see more failures..

My hitch is a new design built by myself and I aint no engineer.. But it doesnt really matter.. A new design should be put thru every tes possible.

I simply asked Sean if he had ever done any outside testing... He said, no... I feel that any new hitch put on the market should go thru the standard testing at minimum.. Can Sean tell us the exact stress point of his hitch, no he doesnt know.. He only says that it has done well with what he put it thru..

I dont even worry about what I have sent out.. I know what they are used on and since I have actually tested mine on a 1800lb tongue weight and 15000lb trailer they will be fine..

My problem is if put on the market, you have no contol over what they will go thru.. So a smart guy would know the breaking point and know what happens in a crash to further engineer the product

If in testing we find that a stress riser causes a failure it Could be a simple thing to fix.. A smart guy would find all this out before continueing on..

Thats what Im saying here Dan... nothing else..

Carey


----------



## Carey

You gotta understand that my hitch has been talked about on many forums. One I that I saw was a guy would like to put it on the back of his 1 ton dually while hauling a 4 car wedge trailer..

He figured if he set it up my hitch right, he could take 2-3000lbs off of his rear axle weight away and make him legal.. He figured he could mount some 15 inch wheels on it and it would handle the weight no problem.

This is just one reason I shouldnt continue unless I know the stress point..

Carey


----------



## Carey

Nathan said:


> I'd like to try to add personal experiences here. There is an argument for 2 different things happening here.
> 
> 1st is Carey's comment on structural rig testing. These tests are run to verify that the correct materials were chosen for the parts, and the correct cross sectional area was designed in for the given materials and worse case loads. Not knowing any specifics, typically, one designs in a safety factor of 1.5-2.0 (i.e. the part can take twice the worse case loading it should ever experience). This type of testing tends to be relatively cheap (sorry guys, but $6k is a bargain for what we are talking about).
> 
> 2nd is Sean's and Carey's comments on vehicle level testing for performance. It's expensive and complex to try every different scenario, as I'm sure both Sean and Carey can attest to.
> 
> Can you replace rig testing with vehicle level? Mostly.
> However to do it correctly, you will have to run all of these overstressed conditions in addition to the more typical conditions. This get's even more expensive. Additionally, you really need rig testing to find the limits of your design. Only there can you gradually increase a load until failure and therefore know exactly where the breaking point is. If you run vehicle testing at a safety factor of 2 and it passes, you still do not know how strong your part is, just how weak it isn't.
> Yes, this is a subtle difference for the average consumer, but this knowledge is critical for the future when you want to upgrade performance or reduce cost and weight. Rig testing also allows you to easlity compare performance of an imported part (like in Sean's example) and demonstrate that it is equivalent to the original design.
> 
> Again, these are just my opinions, but in my experience they can really lead to best in class quality of the end product.


Yep this is exactly my thoughts too..

And yep, in the end you end up with a reliable and great product..

The road testing is very expensive, but for my device it is a requirement..

Sean doesnt need this as much, but I just would have never guessed he hadnt put it thru a SAE standards test.. Makes not a lick of since to me..

Carey


----------



## Carey

Sean Woodruff said:


> Carey got me thinking with his "ALL hitches on the road are tested to the SAE specs" so I got on the phone with a guy who imports 100,000+ weight distribution hitches from China EVERY YEAR and sells them to many of the big names you would know. They slap their sticker on it. He has worked for many of the largest, and THE largest, hitch companies in the country over the last 30+ years.
> 
> You might be able to guess if any of his hitches he sells have been tested.
> 
> Sorry, Carey. I understand where you are coming from but it's not based in reality. I'm also sorry that people wrecking a trailer WITHOUT your hitch is more okay than the risk you would take by manufacturing and selling them. You can get on a pedestal on the highest peak in the Rockies and talk about how you would be crushed if the hitch broke and injured someone but that is an excuse. You can design it for greater loads than anyone could ever apply and not have a problem.
> 
> As for how "terrible" I am for not having the hitch tested. How many lives so you think I have saved by selling an orange hitch or a 3P? I can tell you there are many, MANY stories. I guess they should have just been allowed to roll their trailer, and possibly lose their lives, until the hitch was tested by a group of "testing engineers."


My thoughts are totally based on reality.. I know exactly how people can over use something..

When those wd hitches were intro'd many years ago, they all went thru SAE testing..

And like Nathan said they are manufactured on a stress factor of two..

They are maybe bulit on a factor of 1 and 1/2 now that they are made in China.. So, for 99% of the uses they are being put thru right now they are fine..

Im still not gonna argue about the reasons why you havent had a minimum SAE test done..

If you just came out with a lightbulb, you would get Underwritters Lab tests done.. Whats different about this?

I disagree about being on a mountain.. My hitch wasnt designed to save lives anyway. It was designed to redistribute the weight.. If that happens to save someone than cool.. People will use it on things I never designed it for, and thats why I should never continue till I can see it tested and used on something I never designed it for..

Carey


----------



## Sean Woodruff

I'll make one last comment on the subject since I told Doug I was done. No need to keep tilting at windmills, Carey.

The record of the product speaks for itself with MILLIONS of miles of real world use.

Based on how good you've said your product is, I hope you can say the same for your product some day.


----------



## Carey

Lets see...

A guy buys my hitch... He has a 12000lb axle weight on his dually..

He needs 9200 to make it legal...

So he will put 2800lbs on it on the scales..

When he pulls out of a driveway almost all 12000lbs are on it.. He doesnt empty the air bag.. The hitch is now in a severe twist with 12000lbs on it.. Yes his reciever hitch will be fine.. My hitch will be going thru some nasty stress..

I have no way of seeing 12000lbs on it.. So its only fair that I see similar tests done by a pro lab that can actually measure and see where the stress risor or weak spot is...

I have weighed my hitch on a curb with my 1/2 ton and it weighed 36000lbs... I used a tongue scale.. I had my trailer on and the tires where still touching, but they only weighed about 600lbs because my rear axle weight was 4200lbs.

I am prefectly ok with that...

12000lbs I worry about and I have good reason to worry..

If this thing gets cracked and comes apart on the highway, who looks bad..

People overload trailers everyday.. My hitch is no different.. It will be heavilly overloaded and put thru things I never intended for it to be put thru..

This weight could be well over 12000lbs too.. If the whole combo weighed 38000lbs, its really hard to say how much weight my hitch would see..

Guys, selling my hitch to campers would only be a small portion of my sales.. Contractors would die to have this thing.. Use it as a boost axle when they have heavy loads...

My number 1 sale would be to contractors and over the road commercial trucks.. No I am not planning for that, as I built it for campers, but come to find out I would sell 3 to 1 to contractors..

I done some research on this and a place like home depot would be its best spot to be sold in.. This isnt going to go small... It will go HUGE when it goes..

I will get a few cents for each sold. My marketing plans are several million a year.. It could be mass produced at a retail cost below 1000 dollars..

I do have some local contractors using it and they absolutly love it... I would be going to construction shows, not rv shows..

These are my problems... I need pro road testing to be sure it will be ok..

Carey


----------



## Carey

To any who have lost what I have been trying to say.. I left my house tue morning at 8am.. Its now fri night at 1130pm..

My odometer says I have laid down 3088 miles since tuesday.. I have 1100 to do tomorrow as Im going home. Total time spent so far, 3 days and about 16 hours.. I lost 6 hours waiting for a COD check, the owner ditched out on me.. He wouldnt admit it, but he scrambling like heck to pay for the new rv I brought him.. Today the entry door on the trailer I brought was stuck.. It took us 2 hours to get the door open.. So minus 8 hours of wasted time at dealers..

I have had to do some quick writing in between all the white lines going by..

The only reason I put my hitch down is that my target market is broke.. When I see money coming around things will change. I talked to prolly 50 companies and they all said very cool idea, but our expansion depts are broke or being totally cut out for a while..

You will see this thing on a nevada test track before too long..

Carey


----------



## N7OQ

That was one long hitch advertisement, call it a discussion or informative it still boils down to advertisement for ones hitch. Now if it were a discussion between hitch owners that would be one thing but between manufactures? Give me a break. I still don't think a wimpy TV will somehow become safer just by putting a PP hitch on it.


----------



## Sean Woodruff

N7OQ said:


> I still don't think a wimpy TV will somehow become safer just by putting a PP hitch on it.


A wimpy TV is less safe with a PP hitch on it? Some people will just never understand...


----------



## CamperAndy

Sean Woodruff said:


> I still don't think a wimpy TV will somehow become safer just by putting a PP hitch on it.


A wimpy TV is less safe with a PP hitch on it? Some people will just never understand...








[/quote]

It is a glass have full or glass half empty thing. He says adding a pp hitch will not make it safer as it is basically already too unsafe to start with. So your glass is 3/2's full all the time and many of those that are posting on this subject see the glass 1/2 empty. I see the pp as a good hitch but just not the cure all it's design is made out to be.


----------



## Sean Woodruff

CamperAndy said:


> I still don't think a wimpy TV will somehow become safer just by putting a PP hitch on it.


A wimpy TV is less safe with a PP hitch on it? Some people will just never understand...








[/quote]

It is a glass have full or glass half empty thing. He says adding a pp hitch will not make it safer as it is basically already too unsafe to start with. So your glass is 3/2's full all the time and many of those that are posting on this subject see the glass 1/2 empty. I see the pp as a good hitch but just not the cure all it's design is made out to be.
[/quote]

I don't think you'll ever find anywhere I have said, or advertised for Bill's sake, that it is a cure for ALL of the other factors in the system. It is a cure for eliminating an oscillating trailer behind ANY size tow vehicle AND, if you want to use a lighter suspension tow vehicle with a shorter wheel base, it is definitely a better idea than having the load acting side to side at the hitch ball creating a steering torque. It can be glass half full OR glass half empty but the fact remains it will still supply a drink of water to a thirsty traveler.


----------



## Ridgway-Rangers

To summarize, People are stupid. There will always be the idiot who tows a 33 ft trailer with a Geo Metro. No one will ever say that is safe. Sean sells a product that will at least make that idiot a little safer. It's like owning a gun around kids. Having a lock on it makes it a little safer but not 100% safe. Either way you would not leave an unlocked gun around kids. In my humble opinion, Sean sells a pretty good lock. It sounds like Carey also has a good lock. The problem is that there will always be stupid people out there trying their best to kill the rest of us safe people with their unsafe vehicles and vehicle combinations.

I enjoyed the discussion and thanks to Sean and Carey,








Brian

PS. If anyone's glass is half empty, hopefully it is a plastic red cup, around a campfire, with a fellow Outbacker standing by, ready to fill it back up for him when it gets just a little lower.


----------



## Carey

i wish i could add my thoughts, but i gotta be home tonight and cant stop. im rolling 65 mph in a wind storm i salina ks.. My 31 footer is a handful today................................ oopps my period finger dribbled on a bump.............. Sorry Clark....









Chat with yall tomorrow..

Carey


----------



## Carey

N7OQ said:


> That was one long hitch advertisement, call it a discussion or informative it still boils down to advertisement for ones hitch. Now if it were a discussion between hitch owners that would be one thing but between manufactures? Give me a break. I still don't think a wimpy TV will somehow become safer just by putting a PP hitch on it.


Thats one thing I wish we could have. Manufactures on forums.. We all have to speculate many times when we are chatting about a product. It would be cool to have them be here to exactly answer our issues.. It is great though to be able to speak your mind on a product without there imput too.. Im sorta tossed up on that subject Bill.

Since mine is a pipe dream at this point, the only real mfr is Sean.. He couldnt have talked about his product like he has here and I couldnt have talked about my idea either. But since we could talk together and used all of you guys imput it made it fun. I never seen anywhere one of us advertising to sell anything.

I have one more point to make about trailer sway.

For me, I would just like to toss the glass out the window becuase a person no longer needs a drink if the right ideas, weights, and physics are used.

I will post up on that in a bit.. My lil Chion dog, is needing some play time.. Shes going nuts.. She misses me so much when Im gone, I keep thinking maybe of just taking her with me..

A chion is a cross between a chiuauaua)spelling) and a papilion. Talk about a personality.

I wish I had some of that!







lol

Carey


----------



## Carey

Ok, I have always thought of a bumper pull trailer as an arrow. The ball coupler is the point of the arrow. Our trailers are being lead around by the ball coupler or the point of the arrow.

A real arrow likes to go straight all the time. Its inflienced by its shaft and the longer the shaft, the straighter it goes.

Our trailer is an arrow on roller skates. It has no mind of its own, because the roller skates can influence where the point goes.

To make our arrow(trailer) act like its a real arrow one needs to never allow our trailer to wonder around looking for its leader. And to never allow our arrow/trailer to command the leader(tv).

The longer an arrow is, the straighter it likes to go.

So if I used this same idea, a longer trailer will go even straighter than a short trailer if I could make it have the same idea as an arrow.

Yes this may be goofy thinking, but its true.

If there was a way to make the trailer never effect the leader, the trailer arrow point would have to be lead with total command, and a longer trailer will be actually happier going straight then a shorter one if this could be done.

Since our arrow/trailer is on roller skates, the point has no direction, and has no mind, and it will influence its leader very easy. The point of our arrow/trailer will loose its head at times and force its leader to go where the point of our arrow wishes to go.

The next axle in front of the point on our arrow is the rear axle on our tow vehicle. This axle will become the arrows leader if the trailer decides it wishes to go somehwre other than where its tow vehicle wishes to go.

The trailer has the power to turn this axle into its new point of wished direction.

Since a tow vehicle only has one other axle and its the steering axle, the driver quickly looses feel or control. There is no way to get the vehicle to go straight again because our rear axle follows its leader much like a trailer does. Since the rear axle is being lead in other ways by another vehicle, most of the time the driver will have no way of bringing this mess back under control once the trailer decides it is going to take off on its own.

My thought was adding an axle to force the trailer to lead it rather than being able to lead the rear axle on the tow vehicle.

This would allow the tow vehicle to do as it wished and totally control the arrows point of direction behind the TV.

Since the trailer steer axle is behind the tow vehicle, the tow vehicle noW has tremedous leverage to control this trailer steer axle. It becomes the total commader for our arrows point that has no mind of its own.

If the weight was correctly balanced by the trailer steer axles suspension. There would be an extreme possibility that the tow vehicle could become the ultimate leader for this arrow with no mind that was always able to overtake its tow vehicle(leader) before.

I hope you could follow this all, but this was what was running thru my head as I was driving my semi back and forth to denver everyday when I came up with building my hitch. I know its deep... Im a deep guy..

I looked and found nothing on the market that would support the tongue weight with the ultimate supporter which is air in an air bag. So I built my own.

Ok, whew..

I started testing this idea on the highway.. This was stupid! The first time I done it I was doing 77mph in a 65 zone.. A cop a that was a mile behind me and saw may trailer wagging and pulled me over.. He ask if I had a lil trouble? I said no, I meant to do that.. He didnt get me for speeding. I told him about my hitch, and he looked at it. He seen that I had a CDL liscense and said, bud, this is my highway. I pick up dead bodies off of it often. I pick up dead bodies from trailer sway often too. I love your idea, but this is no place to test it.. He said find a test track somewhere.. he let me go, and said this is the very 1st time I have pulled a guy over that was making his own trailer sway and shook his head and walked away..

OK, so I watched better and continued to do it from time to time..

I then decided to shoot me a lil video of it.. The same cop caught me again.. lol

He grabbed my shirt collar and told me the next time he sees this trailer even wiggle, he was going to haul me to jail for wreckless endangerment..

And yeah, he was right so i stopped doing it in the daylight..

I knew of a lil 2 lane highway out in the eastern plains of colorado. It was hwy 96 out of Pueblo. I stated doing all my testing after midnight on sunday mornings. I could drive for several hours out there and never even see a car. I would send my wife ahead of me about 5 miles and she would tell me on our cbs if something was coming.

I could see any headlights behind so I was good now.. There was not even a ranch house out there.. Just pavement and sagebrush.

I began to test my ideas.

I found that speed made no difference. I could be driving along and and start my trailer swaying. It was very hard to do, but if I jambed the steering wheel hard I could make the trailer whip back and forth.. I would do this for great didtances up and over 80mph.. Yes, crazy..

I could make the trailer whip till the tires wore out. I done that twice.. Once the tires were down to cords after a night of this and I was afraid i would never get it home. I had total command over the trailer, just like I thought i might. I could wag my tail for miles. I could actually feed the whip with steering input to the point of making my truck do a 180 or putting it in the ditch. Never went that far though.. lol

The trailer would whip, but never budge its point of command, which was my hitch and truck.

Since the trailer could never force my truck to become its steer, it couldnt ever influence my truck. I had total command to wag my pupies tail as I wished.

My truck weighed 5800lbs. my hitch weighed 1100lbs. and my trailer wheels weighed 6500lbs.. I was able to wag 6500lbs whenever I wished with my 5800lb truck and 1100lb hitch.

So it was time to up the ante.. Grabbed the jeep liberty.

I found that I could even feed into the whip even more with the lil short whelbase of that jeep. it was a blast to wag that 6500lb tail with that liberty. I could actually whip my trailer to the point of flipping it with that lil liberty.. I would leave black rubber marks on the pavement when it would get to that point. It made me laugh everytime...

Point for this long post is: to date in auto history, there has been two devices that take control of trailer sway. One is Seans with his artristy of physics.

The other is what I designed using perfect weight distribution and the mechanical force of tires to make the tow vehicle take command of the trailer when it sways.

Since the arrows head cant move from its solid leveage factor of of my hitch combined with the leverage of the rest of the tow vehicle it allows the tv to overcome sway.

Sway can happen with my device. but if the sway never moves the axle ahead of it, that then feeds the sway to an out of control action, sway is controlled to just some trailer movement just like a semi trailer.

Now I need to find me a test track so i can further find out what is happening here. When does the length and power of the whip of my trailer overtake my hitch and then makes it posible to streer the tv rear axle. How short of a tow vehicle and how long of a trailer to make this happen? I need to know this. There Has got to be a point that my hitch can lose its ability to create the leverage factor.... I have tried and tried to find this, and I cant.. Its more than I can do.. The hitch cant be produced till I find this..

My hitch allows a 5er to tow a 6000lb car trailer with the same factor of leverage and control.. How far can this be pushed and what forces are taking place? I gotta know these answers..

I would love to hook my hitch up to a Toureg or Durango and tow a 30-35 foot trailer that was within the tv weight allowable limit and do this test and see what happens..

The only video I have is this one below. I have a very hard time making the trailer sway with my truck. If you watch closely, you can see my trucks rear end feeding the whip of the trailer. I was doing 62-65mph and was putting an incredible amount of steering movement into the steering wheel to make the trailer begin to sway.

Again, Sean uses the trapazoidal idea which makes a trailer not able to sway, and mine uses a fixed point for the trailer ball to follow which then doesnt allow the trailer to make the sway any worse.. Remember that a trailer can only get to an out of control sway condition IF its able to take over control of its arrow headed point of command.

We have two differnt animals here.

I would love to hear Seans comments on my idea of comtrolling trailer sway using a leveage factor like I have done and using another axle to steer the trailer with, other than the TV rear axle.

Oh, I can forget the SAE tests stuff if you can Sean.. So I apolpgize for being so hard on you about that..

What I have done is so into the unknown that using every testing facility possible makes since to me to help me back up that lil ole me could make something strong enough to be combined with a TV and a Trailer to become the point of control for both vehicles.. So for me, and just being a garage trucker dude and not an engineer, I cant even muster up throwing an idea out there without some pro testing and advice.. So my view is clouded on the testing subject versus yours..

Man, I was hoping to discuss going thru sweeping curves at or above the speed limit using my hitch and the total leverge factor of command over the trailer allowing me to do this..

Im sorry guys.. my fingers are done, and I only have today off. I have to del my trailer tomorrow north of denver and head back to indy.. When Im on the road I just dont have much time to give my clear thoughts on the subject of the ideas behind my hitch..

Here is my lil video.. Its not good I know.. the cop said traffic a mile behind came to a stop when they seen this happening.. Man was he pissed, lol

luckily he waves at me now..

click for video

I made this video while on the cell phone.. When I decided to stop the whipping of the trailer I simply put my hand back to steering wheel center. I was off of the throttle as I crested and went down the hill, hoping to make the sway worse..

Kinda funny.. Out of all my videos its the most important one... Knowone gets what Im doing because I dont have the ability of what floats in my head get into words for people to understand..

After seeing your guys posts yesterday while cruising down the highway, I thought the rest of the night how I could put what is in my head in words.. Hope it makes sny since to you all..

I was able to finish my 18 and 1/2hr and 1071 mile day from Covington, Indiana to Canon City, Colorado because I was thinking of a way how to explain what I have prolly already tried to say 500 times..

Carey


----------



## sydmeg1012

I just wanted to say I've enjoyed the discussion on this thread. I've learned more about hitch technology than I ever thought I'd know! As a ProPride user I can testify that the hitch does work very well for me, no issues with sway at all, although I'm hardly in a situation where I'm underpowered in the TV department. I am impressed with Carey's design as well, he seems to have put a lot of thought and work into it, along with applying plenty of experience. Hey Carey...just curious, what would be the effect of a tire blowing on the Hitch Hog at highway speed?


----------



## Carey

You would feel nothing. Not even in a curve.. I actually took off 2 tires and made my trailer a single axle and tried to make it sway..

I almost flipped it because of the overload on the two existing tires..

Again, with my story above, the trailer can only affect the TV if it actually came all the way around as in if trying to kiss the TV's nose..

Carey


----------



## sydmeg1012

God forbid....I gotta tell ya you're a braver man than I am doing all this testing with your own trailer!


----------



## sydmeg1012

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> You would feel nothing. Not even in a curve.. I actually took off 2 tires and made my trailer a single axle and tried to make it sway..
> 
> I almost flipped it because of the overload on the two existing tires..
> 
> Again, with my story above, the trailer can only affect the TV if it actually came all the way around as in if trying to kess the TV's nose..
> 
> Carey


BTW I think you misunderstood....I meant one of the tires on the Hitch Hog itself going down. Would that cause any problems?


----------



## Carey

oh, no nothing.. Its so strong that you can use just one wheel instead of 2 of you need to..



















This was with a 1200 tongue weight and 125 psi in the air bag.. the entire rear of the truck was almost off of the ground..

Just guessing, there was maybe 3000lbs on this one tire..

I done tons and tons of testing with just one tire on it..

It doesnt create quite the leverage factor but still works well..

Sorry bout that.

Carey


----------



## clarkely

N7OQ said:


> That was one long hitch advertisement, call it a discussion or informative it still boils down to advertisement for ones hitch.


Come on.............sean never advertises on here..........and Carey's isn't even in the market place.........


----------



## clarkely

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> i wish i could add my thoughts, but i gotta be home tonight and cant stop. im rolling 65 mph in a wind storm i salina ks.. My 31 footer is a handful today................................ oopps my period finger dribbled on a bump.............. Sorry Clark....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chat with yall tomorrow..
> 
> Carey


A PP might help out with that handful.tested or untested........................................................................
....................................... I gotta stop that.......................but every one has a trademark

Mine id the DOt Dot Dot









Time for a big outbackers Group hug









That was a good one carry....the bump.......made me laugh!!


----------



## Carey

Just having some fun Clark... I actually was driving when I posted that and I hit a bump and and made too many dots, so I thought, eh, may as well have some fun.. lol

For your info I was pulling a 31 footer wiith no wd/sway at all.. I was pulling one of those spread axle Heartland North Trails. Ive used wd bars with em and I cant feel any difference with em or without em..

When a guy has a 10000lb dually with a 400+lb counterweight hanging where the front bumper was I have found I can pull any normal travel trailer without any wd bars. Semis dont bother me either. But those park models I use everything I can get!

Group hug accepted and your post mad me laugh too............!









Have a good day all!

Carey


----------



## BoaterDan

I'd just like to say that if this forum ever goes to banning these kinds of discussions that include manufacturers it will be the day my participation will drop off a cliff. I've doubled my knowledge of hitches and sway in this thread. If we talked about the Hensley or Propride hitch amongst ourselves, with the proverbial testimonials that always follow, it is no less an advertisement than what Sean and Carey have done here.

I believe I was the one that introduced Sean and ProPride to this forum. Somewhere I came across the news story of the new company, and thought it newsworthy as I knew many here had or were considering Hensleys. Part of the reason the new hitch caught my attention is because I liked the startup/underdog aspect of it. Despite my disagreements with Sean sometimes, his subsequent participation here and respect for the policies, and the testimony of those that have worked with him, seem to support he's a 100% class act - the kind of person we all want to do business with.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

Carey, I still don't follow the logic. I'm not trying to suggest you're dumb, far from it (I think your hitch idea is incredible), but I just don't see the logic. You've explained and posted pictures here that you've personally tested it in conditions well beyond what it should normally experience. You talk about the idiot who will take it beyond the design specs. What does it matter whether that is 2,500 pounds or 25,000 pounds, if you know somebody's gonna take it over the top. Loading it beyond the published specs will "void the warranty" and release you from liability as much as it ever does (which isn't much, of course). You say you're fine with the people you've given them to because you know how they'll be used. A test is never going to help one iota with knowing how it'll be used, and the test can't possibly come back saying it's literally indestructible.

So, it would seem to me you could sleep like a baby publishing that it can be used for tongue weights up to X pounds, with trailers up to Y feet in length, on tow vehicles with an otherwise legal class Z hitch, etc. etc. - just like what you know about the people you've given them to You put your head down on the pillow knowing there's an idiot out there right now trying to figure out how to do something insane with it, just like there's an idiot that is going to clean out the lawnmower while it's running. They're going to sue you, you're going to settle. How exactly does the test help resolve that problem?

The only thing that makes sense to me is that there's a possibility the test will reveal the hitch has a vulnerability you never imagined. With a 2,000 weight on it an S curve at 75mph will cause it to explode - that sort of thing. I'm obviously exaggerating for the point, but is that kind of what you're thinking? But then, if that's a possibility then you've put the souls of the giveaway users at great risk.

Can you walk me through this step-by-step? You get the test done and it says it will crack in half under such-and-such conditions. Then what does that mean and how does it guide your subsequent decisions?


----------



## clarkely

BoaterDan said:


> I'd just like to say that if this forum ever goes to banning these kinds of discussions that include manufacturers it will be the day my participation will drop off a cliff. I've doubled my knowledge of hitches and sway in this thread. If we talked about the Hensley or Propride hitch amongst ourselves, with the proverbial testimonials that always follow, it is no less an advertisement than what Sean and Carey have done here.
> 
> Despite my disagreements with Sean sometimes, his subsequent participation here and respect for the policies, and the testimony of those that have worked with him, seem to support he's a 100% class act - the kind of person we all want to do business with.


X2 Well said Dan!!


----------



## Carey

BoaterDan said:


> I'd just like to say that if this forum ever goes to banning these kinds of discussions that include manufacturers it will be the day my participation will drop off a cliff. I've doubled my knowledge of hitches and sway in this thread. If we talked about the Hensley or Propride hitch amongst ourselves, with the proverbial testimonials that always follow, it is no less an advertisement than what Sean and Carey have done here.
> 
> I believe I was the one that introduced Sean and ProPride to this forum. Somewhere I came across the news story of the new company, and thought it newsworthy as I knew many here had or were considering Hensleys. Part of the reason the new hitch caught my attention is because I liked the startup/underdog aspect of it. Despite my disagreements with Sean sometimes, his subsequent participation here and respect for the policies, and the testimony of those that have worked with him, seem to support he's a 100% class act - the kind of person we all want to do business with.
> 
> Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming...
> 
> Carey, I still don't follow the logic. I'm not trying to suggest you're dumb, far from it (I think your hitch idea is incredible), but I just don't see the logic. You've explained and posted pictures here that you've personally tested it in conditions well beyond what it should normally experience. You talk about the idiot who will take it beyond the design specs. What does it matter whether that is 2,500 pounds or 25,000 pounds, if you know somebody's gonna take it over the top. Loading it beyond the published specs will "void the warranty" and release you from liability as much as it ever does (which isn't much, of course). You say you're fine with the people you've given them to because you know how they'll be used. A test is never going to help one iota with knowing how it'll be used, and the test can't possibly come back saying it's literally indestructible.
> 
> So, it would seem to me you could sleep like a baby publishing that it can be used for tongue weights up to X pounds, with trailers up to Y feet in length, on tow vehicles with an otherwise legal class Z hitch, etc. etc. - just like what you know about the people you've given them to You put your head down on the pillow knowing there's an idiot out there right now trying to figure out how to do something insane with it, just like there's an idiot that is going to clean out the lawnmower while it's running. They're going to sue you, you're going to settle. How exactly does the test help resolve that problem?
> 
> The only thing that makes sense to me is that there's a possibility the test will reveal the hitch has a vulnerability you never imagined. With a 2,000 weight on it an S curve at 75mph will cause it to explode - that sort of thing. I'm obviously exaggerating for the point, but is that kind of what you're thinking? But then, if that's a possibility then you've put the souls of the giveaway users at great risk.
> 
> Can you walk me through this step-by-step? You get the test done and it says it will crack in half under such-and-such conditions. Then what does that mean and how does it guide your subsequent decisions?


As far as explianing this thing, Im dumb. I, nor some of the people who've used it can put in right words what it does and how it helps.

We live in a world where companies put out new fangled products without much testing. In fact with computers very little testing is even done anymore. Maybe im a farm boy, maybe im old school, but I dont believe in putting something out there without knowing the unknown in real life. I feel computers are great for designing things, but thats it..

If I were to start building this thing today, I prolly wont be able to get liability insurance on my own. The only avenue I have is joining the Natl assoc of trailer mfrs. And using there blanket liability insurance that they offer for there members. I ask to join the NATM and just recently they finally decided they would even let me be a member. So just that took about 2 years.. They said my device was not trailer, but since it changes a trailer from a semi trailer to a full trailer the finally decided they would accept me.. This was one reason I shevled it.. I may still need to show the devive and allow a drive test with the NATM and there insurance company..

This thing has so many uses and benifits, thats its just too good to be true..

Tell me what you think if you seen my ad label:

Can increase fuel mileage up to 20%
Extends wheelbase 3-4 feet. 
Reduces tire wear
Reduces rear differential temps
Supports up to 90% of the tongue weight
Dump method used to keep from tire scuffing in turns
Allows a vehicle to ride as if its not towing anything and returns a factory ride while towing
Allows the suspension to work in an unloaded fashion just like when its empty
Readuces rear brake pad wear
Increases front braking capability
Doesnt allow the trailer to dive down in a panic stop which causes a loss of stability on the front axle, this gives that back
Transfers a large amount of weight to the front brakes which allows stopping at far reduced distances than in a normal towing situtaion
Allows a using a mass produced w/d sway bar hitch
Increases the leverage factor of the sway bars by a huge amount which in turns reduces sway down to nothing regaurdless of tongue weight
Keeps front axle weight the same as it weighs now without a trailer
Increases stability by a large margin in curves, over bumps, and around large vehicles
Allows going thru curves with a push of the trailer, removing the see-saw feel of a trailer in a curve
Creates a locking effect between the hitch and the rear axle, which forces the trailer to follow the tow vehicle at all times
Use it without a trailer to keep your pick up level when overloading it
Thers more but id have to get my workbook out and its at home

Can be used with any vehicle towing most any trailer that has a 2000lb tongue weight or less
Can be used without a trailer to support a load in a pick up.

Anyway, if you read this ad label, like whos gonna believe it?

Yes I feel this could be made to where its indestructable if some further testing was done.

I will offer a tag axle that will be used with duallies and that will be comnined with a class 5 hitch and it will have brakes. I will offer this as the first device in history that will legally increase the gvw of a vehicle. It will be able to carry 6000lbs. It will use 16 inch wheels and 7000lb hubs and brakes. That is further down the road.

But anyway, Dan, what part of the logic dont you understand? Dont feel bad, as prolly 99% of people who see it dont understand it. The first thing they do is make a joke about it, because its human to make fun of things above our knowledge. Do you not understand the mechanical aspect? I can prolly help if I know what part of it is not understood.

Ive seen people call it a training wheel and some other things I cant write here. But that doesnt bother me.. I kinda figured on that anyway.

Problem is its does so much that few will ever believe it till they try it.. So I can advertise all I want, but this thing will be sold by word of mouth. If I ever get some bucks saved I will put it on the tv show Trucks. That would be a great place for it to be understood.

My hitch is becoming a big hit with the guys who want to tow a rock crawler on a trailer behind a 5er. It makes total since to them I get calls often. In fact my prototype hitch supply is just about gone from these guys..

It makes since to people who have experinece in auto suspensions too.

But it makes little to since to just normal people. This will be a huge hurdle and being that the device is somwhat complicated at this point to set it up on your truck because of all the air plumbing and electrical stuff. It is over many peoples DIY capabilities at this point.

I will need to stream line all of its contols before going much further.

Well Im back on the road and my laptop needs charged.. I use that as my time allowance clock.. Im sorry if I missed your point Dan, I tried not too. but keep posting on the things I missed, ok!

On the worry of breakage, Im not worried at all.. I just want to see stability stuff on a test track. Id like to measure axle weights in the whole combo while braking, curves, etc.. For my knowledge and how I could further improve its stability factor. One thing you not gonna do is break it..

Carey


----------



## Collinsfam_WY

Thought I would add a few comments from my experience towing with the HitchHog:

Can increase fuel mileage up to 20%: *Yes.*
Extends wheelbase 3-4 feet: *Yes.*
Reduces tire wear: *Did not tow long enough to verify this.*
Reduces rear differential temps: *Did not measure while using.*
Supports up to 90% of the tongue weight: *Yes.*
Dump method used to keep from tire scuffing in turns: *Yes.*
Allows a vehicle to ride as if its not towing anything and returns a factory ride while towing: * Absolutely YES!. This is at first disconcerting.*
Allows the suspension to work in an unloaded fashion just like when its empty: * Yes.*
Readuces rear brake pad wear: *Did not tow long enough to verify this.*
Increases front braking capability: * I would say yes only to "Increases braking capability" - I cannot verify "front braking".*
Doesnt allow the trailer to dive down in a panic stop which causes a loss of stability on the front axle, this gives that back: * Yes.*
Transfers a large amount of weight to the front brakes which allows stopping at far reduced distances than in a normal towing situtaion: *Yes.*
Allows a using a mass produced w/d sway bar hitch: *Yes - I used my Equal-I-zer with it.*
Increases the leverage factor of the sway bars by a huge amount which in turns reduces sway down to nothing regaurdless of tongue weight: *Yes.*
Keeps front axle weight the same as it weighs now without a trailer: *Did not take to scales while I had my 150 and used the Hog with it.*
Increases stability by a large margin in curves, over bumps, and around large vehicles: *Impossible to explain how amazingly true this is.*
Allows going thru curves with a push of the trailer, removing the see-saw feel of a trailer in a curve: *See answer above.*
Creates a locking effect between the hitch and the rear axle, which forces the trailer to follow the tow vehicle at all times: *Yes.*
Use it without a trailer to keep your pick up level when overloading it: *Wish I had the Hog when I foolishly hauled home about 2500lbs of concrete blocks in the bed of my old F150.*

Most people who see it - remember it as "that dolly". When we towed the 23RS to East Texas a few weeks ago, several guys were asking me "where is that dolly you had last year, I wanted to see that again". Uncle Jerry the engineer from Chevron wandered over with his son the airline pilot from Oregon: "I brought my son over to see it - where is it?". Everywhere I went - people asked about it and wanted to know more. Stop to get gas - people come over. Stop at a DQ in a small Texas town - people came over to the table. Camping at a State Park - people wandered by, gawked and asked questions. Most would just gesture with blank looks. I did my best to explain but only a few ever said "wow I see how that could help". Most just left scratching their heads wanting to know more. Some would stop by 2-3 times.

I would agree with Carey that it makes little sense to most people. It took me working with Carey installing it on my F150 to "get it". I think that point finally happened when we were setting up the towing height and adjusting the Hog to the truck and trailer. And then - it didn't fully sink in until I had towed with it a few times. The entire experience left me convinced that people towing bumper pulls want something better than whatever they know about to pull trailers with.

Have you ever driven a car with a finely tuned suspension that tracks amazingly straight and smooth? I have - back in the bachelor days I owned a Volvo C70. I recall that a day or so after I bought it, I put my first set of Pirelli P-Zero tires on that car. The confidence that sweet Volvo shod with those Pirellis gave me was an experience I have to this day, not forgotten. It was unlike anything I had experienced prior to that. Same goes for towing with the Hog.

-CC


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## N7OQ

clarkely said:


> That was one long hitch advertisement, call it a discussion or informative it still boils down to advertisement for ones hitch.


Come on.............sean never advertises on here..........and Carey's isn't even in the market place.........
[/quote]

Every time he talks about his hitch he is advertising, he really has no other reason to be here since he doesn't own a Outback and as far as I know we never has and doesn't plan to own one. If you search the internet you will find that he is on a lot of trailer/camping sites doing the some thing, talking about hitches, towing dynamics any thing that leads to how good his hitch is. He has sold hitchs here and stands to sell more.

Now as for Carey I think we should be able to talk about his hitch or even advertise it since he is a true Outbacker and a true camper. I think this forum should be for Outback owners 1st, previous Outback owners 2nd and those who love to camp 3rd no mater what they own but when you let a CEO for a hitch manufacture in that as far as I know doesn't even camp is wrong. I'm sure Sean is a nice guy but everytine I see his post it in a thread about towing so in my book it is his suttle way of advertising his hitch, before he came to this forum I had never heard of a Pro Pride hitch but I didn't care to know about it. Had I wanted that type of hitch then I would have used a search engine and found out all about it.

Now I might be the only one that feel this way but since I'm a member here I feel I have the right to express my opinion.


----------



## Carey

Well Bill, I no longer own my outback or even my 1/2 ton truck. Cant afford them no more..

When I was just getting this thing going in 2007 I lost my job that gave me the money to experiment with this.

We took a family vote to spend my 30k I had invested in my ira from the job I had, plus use some credit cards to build a bunch and see where it takes us..

I thought I could find another job that would allow me to continue... I could find lots of jobs, but none had the income and perks of my previous job.. I then found out that buying liability insurance was gonna be out of site for my idea.. Some other things happened and it created a perfect storm for my finances. So I decided to put the thing on the back burner and slowly let people test this thing and also allow me to put it on other vehicles that I wondered about.. I got a job hauling rvs so I could talk to people about towing all around the country. I also got this job to allow to learn about the vast opportunity that the elkhart area in known for. The entire county of elkhart reeks of inventivness.. I got this job becuase I thought it might help learn about ways of fitting my ideas in our lives.

Mr obama announced last week in elkhart there are gonna be some funds made available for green technology. If my hitch aint part of what can be called a green movement I dont know what is.. I could give a rats a$$ about how much money is needed or could be made.. Doing things like changing the way we could tow is the fun part.. I have always thought if I could help to do that the money would be secondary. And yep, it still is.. So I would even accept working for a company to get this thing going as long as I got to be involved in the fun part.. I just could care a less about the dollars.. The only rotten miserable people I know are so loaded down with money that they become like paranoid that they are gonna lose it.. I for one believe life should be fun and opening minds to creative ideas are much more enjoyable than money ever could be.. And thats one thing I got... Lots of strange new ideas in my head.. I have great fun making my dreams into objects.. I say thats priceless!

You see, people buy a 3/4 ton tow vehicle for several reasons... One is the more solid feel you get when you tow. One more is braking.

Lets say that there was something out there that could be plugged in to a truck that would make it act like a 3/4 ton even though it is a 1/2 ton.

Lets say the auto mfrs go ahead and build the diesel 1/2 tons we keep hearing about. Now lets say the trailer mfrs light-en trailers by 25%. Lets say there was a device that you could plug into that diesel 1/2 ton and make it act like a 3/4 ton in every way.

Would towing and camping become more affordable and more enjoyable.... Heck yea. Now lets say that 1/2 ton got 25mpg empty. Now lets say that 1/2 ton towing that 30 foot trailer got 15mpg while towing that trailer...

Would we like it? Oh yea...

This was my thoughts as I tested this thing... Well Im begining to see a perfect storm brewing to finally get the ball rolling. Peoples closed minds of gas guzzling size over matter is begining to change. And devices such as mine are gonna allow the change to begin.

I am gonna meet with the elkhart county chamber of commerce and see if there is a company interested, or even that would hire me to get this going. Just last week our fearless leader announced that he is gonna make grant monies available in Elkhart county for green ideas and inventions.. So what do I have to lose, except for having to move to Elkhart.. Yes that would be a tough one for this colorado boy..

But back to Dans logic question..

I know you have a 3/4 ton tow rig. The major reason it tows better is it gives the trailer more of a fixed point for the trailer to follow. My device allows a vehicle to have the ability to have this same fixed point for the trailer to follow reguardless of the size of the tow vehicle. So by simply plugging my hitch in, a spread of axle seperation is now made that forces the ball connection to be less moveable.

If the trailer has a tougher time pushing the tow vehicle, then sway and unwated movements are more easilly controlled. Sway has to become out of control to wreck you.. Otherwise sway or trailer movements are just uncomfortable.. So lets say we made our ball connection on the tow rig immoveable. Then the only thing we need to worry about is the ability that the trailer can swing on this fixed immoveable point.. So now, if the trailer sways, it has a much harder time affecting the tv, because the ball connection for the tv is more immoveable. Lets say using a mass produced w/d sway device stops ALL of the unwated swinging action that is now left because instead of having to lever against a rear tv axle that is 3-4 feet away, now that axle that the wd/sway hitch levers against is at the point of the lever fulcrum, or lever hinge or joint.

This turns a mass produced sway hitch into an incredible strong arm that few would ever believe..

Using my hitch and a mass produced sway hitch allowed me to play wag my tail with my trailer using a jeep liberty because of the increbile gains in lever hinging and fixtures of points. Its very, very simple mechanical ideas that im using. Im allowing everything we have now to be magnified in a great amount over what we have available for us to use now to keep our trailers from swaying.

Instead of your sway hitch having to lever against the rear axle it now levers against my axle which is right at the point of connection.. Hope this sinks in, because this is why my hitch works so well..

There has been some people build devices like mine, but few have used air as the weight support.. The air bag is the secret to everything my hitch does.. I could spend the rest of the night telling you why just using an air bag along with a set of wheels behind the tow vehicle changes towing and stability in ways we cant comprehend but I cant cause a guy has to sleep sometime.

I hope this helps Dan...

And dudes.. I gotta get to sleep... My mind is racing with thoughts I could write about...

Thanks alot all! <wink>

I hope some of my thoughts are making any since to you guys.. I have written them in a jillion ways and knowone gets it.. So I will continue on till you do... Keep asking your questions please.

Carey


----------



## sydmeg1012

N7OQ said:


> That was one long hitch advertisement, call it a discussion or informative it still boils down to advertisement for ones hitch.


Come on.............sean never advertises on here..........and Carey's isn't even in the market place.........
[/quote]

Every time he talks about his hitch he is advertising, he really has no other reason to be here since he doesn't own a Outback and as far as I know we never has and doesn't plan to own one. If you search the internet you will find that he is on a lot of trailer/camping sites doing the some thing, talking about hitches, towing dynamics any thing that leads to how good his hitch is. He has sold hitchs here and stands to sell more.

Now as for Carey I think we should be able to talk about his hitch or even advertise it since he is a true Outbacker and a true camper. I think this forum should be for Outback owners 1st, previous Outback owners 2nd and those who love to camp 3rd no mater what they own but when you let a CEO for a hitch manufacture in that as far as I know doesn't even camp is wrong. I'm sure Sean is a nice guy but everytine I see his post it in a thread about towing so in my book it is his suttle way of advertising his hitch, before he came to this forum I had never heard of a Pro Pride hitch but I didn't care to know about it. Had I wanted that type of hitch then I would have used a search engine and found out all about it.

Now I might be the only one that feel this way but since I'm a member here I feel I have the right to express my opinion.
[/quote]

You absolutely do, and I respect it. I think we need to bear in mind however that this is not a private club, it's a public website. One need not be an Outback owner or camper at all to access this site and read/post information. Rules of the road are set up by Doug and the other moderators and as long as Sean is operating within these parameters, in my opinion he's welcome to post all he wants. Yes, I do own a ProPride hitch but I would welcome someone from Hensley, Pullrite, Reese or any other hitch manfacturer to post here and provide insight and information, as long as they respect the rules and don't overstep the boundaries. Like Dan said earlier, I've learned a helluva lot about hitches and towing on this thread, in no small part thanks to Carey and Sean's back and forth discussion! Keep it coming!


----------



## clarkely

N7OQ said:


> That was one long hitch advertisement, call it a discussion or informative it still boils down to advertisement for ones hitch.


Come on.............sean never advertises on here..........and Carey's isn't even in the market place.........
[/quote]

Every time he talks about his hitch he is advertising, he really has no other reason to be here since he doesn't own a Outback and as far as I know we never has and doesn't plan to own one. If you search the internet you will find that he is on a lot of trailer/camping sites doing the some thing, talking about hitches, towing dynamics any thing that leads to how good his hitch is. He has sold hitchs here and stands to sell more.

Now as for Carey I think we should be able to talk about his hitch or even advertise it since he is a true Outbacker and a true camper. I think this forum should be for Outback owners 1st, previous Outback owners 2nd and those who love to camp 3rd no mater what they own but when you let a CEO for a hitch manufacture in that as far as I know doesn't even camp is wrong. I'm sure Sean is a nice guy but everytine I see his post it in a thread about towing so in my book it is his suttle way of advertising his hitch, before he came to this forum I had never heard of a Pro Pride hitch but I didn't care to know about it. Had I wanted that type of hitch then I would have used a search engine and found out all about it.

Now I might be the only one that feel this way but since I'm a member here I feel I have the right to express my opinion.
[/quote]

No Offense...........we all have opinions, and if we express them in a dignified way, we can open ourselves to good discussions.
I took a moment and checked here http: //www.outbackers.com/forums/index.php?act=boardrules I have invited several of my SOB friends to this website.....some are even dealers of other brands.............as i feel it is a great place were dignified constructive discussions take place. every time we mention outbackers, GMC, Chevy, Ford, Dodge, reese, equalizer, hensley, we are advertising in a sense.

I have gathered that Nathan is an engineer for Ford........ Does that mean he can't talk about Ford??

IMO when we as indivdual members try to dictate to the "site" or "management" what we feel the rules should be in the forum, we begin to take away from the beauty of Outbackers. 
IMO if you feel someone is abusing the forum or guidelines...Then you should contact a moderator or Doug. Management here does a great job of keeping things going in the outlined direction...........thus we end up with informative discussions. It is a much more respectful way of asking or stating that you feel someone is abusing the forum's guidelines.

I am pretty confident if engineers or owners of keystone/outback, GM, Ford, etc. were on here participating, they would have to follow the Forum guidelines as well, to me there really is not a difference. I have the utmost confidence that the Moderators would have stepped in if it had become necessary.

I believe there is something to learn everyday, and i enjoy receiving as well as giving advice/information.

The above was an attempt to shed some perspective on why I responded to your post originally.


----------



## BoaterDan

Carey, you've missed my point again. I'm not talking about the logic of the way the hitch works, but about feeling you need this particular test before releasing it for sale. And understand that I'm saying all this because I want to see this thing on the market if it's as good as it appears, both because it seems to be a great product and because I'd like to see you get rich selling them.









I just can't get around how you seem to be arguing both sides of the same point regarding the test. On the one hand you say you're perfectly comfortable with the giveaway users because you know they're operating within some parameters you know to be safe. Then you say you couldn't sleep at night selling it to some other guy because you don't know how he'll use it. But the test can't possibly guarantee people will only use it within the limits of the test or within the limits you've apparently already determined by other means. So, I just don't see the logic in saying you can't sell it until this test is done, since that doesn't really seem to help protect anybody that uses it in a reasonable way.

I'm not a mechanical or structural engineer, or any kind at all for that matter unless you count the term "software engineer". Maybe I'm a dunce when it comes to this stuff. But if I need a structure that would support 100 pounds, and I have available 1/4 inch thick 2x2 steel tubing, I don't need a test to tell me it will crack in half at 35,000 pounds to know it will support my 100 pounds. Sorry you feel that way about computer modeling, because if we had to test every skyscraper or bridge to the point of failure we probably couldn't afford to have cities or highways.

Help me understand exactly what this test does for you in a practical way.


----------



## BoaterDan

BTW, all opinions are welcome in my opinion, buy my opinion is I agree with Clarkely's opinion.

Frankly, I'm personally not real thrilled with the SOB inclusion. If this is an Outbackers site, it should be for owners of Outbacks. But I just deal with it, even though my prior experience with another similar club making the same decision was not a good one, because the overwhelming majority of the population here seems to be ok with it.


----------



## Nathan

clarkely said:


> That was one long hitch advertisement, call it a discussion or informative it still boils down to advertisement for ones hitch.


Come on.............sean never advertises on here..........and Carey's isn't even in the market place.........
[/quote]

Every time he talks about his hitch he is advertising, he really has no other reason to be here since he doesn't own a Outback and as far as I know we never has and doesn't plan to own one. If you search the internet you will find that he is on a lot of trailer/camping sites doing the some thing, talking about hitches, towing dynamics any thing that leads to how good his hitch is. He has sold hitchs here and stands to sell more.

Now as for Carey I think we should be able to talk about his hitch or even advertise it since he is a true Outbacker and a true camper. I think this forum should be for Outback owners 1st, previous Outback owners 2nd and those who love to camp 3rd no mater what they own but when you let a CEO for a hitch manufacture in that as far as I know doesn't even camp is wrong. I'm sure Sean is a nice guy but everytine I see his post it in a thread about towing so in my book it is his suttle way of advertising his hitch, before he came to this forum I had never heard of a Pro Pride hitch but I didn't care to know about it. Had I wanted that type of hitch then I would have used a search engine and found out all about it.

Now I might be the only one that feel this way but since I'm a member here I feel I have the right to express my opinion.
[/quote]

No Offense...........we all have opinions, and if we express them in a dignified way, we can open ourselves to good discussions.
I took a moment and checked here http: //www.outbackers.com/forums/index.php?act=boardrules I have invited several of my SOB friends to this website.....some are even dealers of other brands.............as i feel it is a great place were dignified constructive discussions take place. every time we mention outbackers, GMC, Chevy, Ford, Dodge, reese, equalizer, hensley, we are advertising in a sense.

I have gathered that Nathan is an engineer for Ford........ Does that mean he can't talk about Ford??

IMO when we as indivdual members try to dictate to the "site" or "management" what we feel the rules should be in the forum, we begin to take away from the beauty of Outbackers. 
IMO if you feel someone is abusing the forum or guidelines...Then you should contact a moderator or Doug. Management here does a great job of keeping things going in the outlined direction...........thus we end up with informative discussions. It is a much more respectful way of asking or stating that you feel someone is abusing the forum's guidelines.

I am pretty confident if engineers or owners of keystone/outback, GM, Ford, etc. were on here participating, they would have to follow the Forum guidelines as well, to me there really is not a difference. I have the utmost confidence that the Moderators would have stepped in if it had become necessary.

I believe there is something to learn everyday, and i enjoy receiving as well as giving advice/information.

The above was an attempt to shed some perspective on why I responded to your post originally.
[/quote]
Uh oh, I was waiting for that to come up.









Acutally, I have rules I must obey too (from my employer







). First, I am not allowed to hide where I work... Second, I am allowed to support the product but cannot represent that I am speaking for the company. There's also some fine print about confidentiality, which is why I can't comment on any rumors or reports unless they are official press releases.

Oh yeah, I follow the forum rules too, but I think most employers have stricter rules than this forum.


----------



## clarkely

Nathan said:


> That was one long hitch advertisement, call it a discussion or informative it still boils down to advertisement for ones hitch.


Come on.............sean never advertises on here..........and Carey's isn't even in the market place.........
[/quote]

Every time he talks about his hitch he is advertising, he really has no other reason to be here since he doesn't own a Outback and as far as I know we never has and doesn't plan to own one. If you search the internet you will find that he is on a lot of trailer/camping sites doing the some thing, talking about hitches, towing dynamics any thing that leads to how good his hitch is. He has sold hitchs here and stands to sell more.

Now as for Carey I think we should be able to talk about his hitch or even advertise it since he is a true Outbacker and a true camper. I think this forum should be for Outback owners 1st, previous Outback owners 2nd and those who love to camp 3rd no mater what they own but when you let a CEO for a hitch manufacture in that as far as I know doesn't even camp is wrong. I'm sure Sean is a nice guy but everytine I see his post it in a thread about towing so in my book it is his suttle way of advertising his hitch, before he came to this forum I had never heard of a Pro Pride hitch but I didn't care to know about it. Had I wanted that type of hitch then I would have used a search engine and found out all about it.

Now I might be the only one that feel this way but since I'm a member here I feel I have the right to express my opinion.
[/quote]

No Offense...........we all have opinions, and if we express them in a dignified way, we can open ourselves to good discussions.
I took a moment and checked here http: //www.outbackers.com/forums/index.php?act=boardrules I have invited several of my SOB friends to this website.....some are even dealers of other brands.............as i feel it is a great place were dignified constructive discussions take place. every time we mention outbackers, GMC, Chevy, Ford, Dodge, reese, equalizer, hensley, we are advertising in a sense.

I have gathered that Nathan is an engineer for Ford........ Does that mean he can't talk about Ford??

IMO when we as indivdual members try to dictate to the "site" or "management" what we feel the rules should be in the forum, we begin to take away from the beauty of Outbackers. 
IMO if you feel someone is abusing the forum or guidelines...Then you should contact a moderator or Doug. Management here does a great job of keeping things going in the outlined direction...........thus we end up with informative discussions. It is a much more respectful way of asking or stating that you feel someone is abusing the forum's guidelines.

I am pretty confident if engineers or owners of keystone/outback, GM, Ford, etc. were on here participating, they would have to follow the Forum guidelines as well, to me there really is not a difference. I have the utmost confidence that the Moderators would have stepped in if it had become necessary.

I believe there is something to learn everyday, and i enjoy receiving as well as giving advice/information.

The above was an attempt to shed some perspective on why I responded to your post originally.
[/quote]
Uh oh, I was waiting for that to come up.









Acutally, I have rules I must obey too (from my employer







). First, I am not allowed to hide where I work... Second, I am allowed to support the product but cannot represent that I am speaking for the company. There's also some fine print about confidentiality, which is why I can't comment on any rumors or reports unless they are official press releases.

Oh yeah, I follow the forum rules too, but I think most employers have stricter rules than this forum.
[/quote]

Nathan, I was only using your situation as an example









I value your comments and insight as well!!!!

And would not want to loose them, which was the point i was trying to convey...........


----------



## Carey

Man this thread is just about 1 page per day.. lol

On the testing,

There needs to be reciever hitch testing to see if not dumping the air bag would be a problem. There needs to be tire loading tests done in different driving situtaions. There needs to be weight testing on my hitch to find any stress risors. This is just a start.

There are alot of things happening with the hitch and the forces its going thru and Id like to see those in a measured testing enviroment to be able to further improve it.

One thing that will be required is using the heaviest hitchfor the vehicle its used on. I have found that as long as we are driving normally the reciever hitch is fine.. When we get into binding situations such as over a curb, in tight turns etc, there is some hitch loading going on.

If one were to have the pressure setting set at say 40psi, then if I added a pop off valve that bleeds air at 50 psi, or using aa small expansion tank, this would protect any sudden forces to the reciever hitch. I would like to see what sudden forces do to the reciever hitch in a testing enviroment.

I can sit and write questions about my hitch all day Dan, And its all stuff that wont change its ability to be produced, but its stuff that would allow my hitch to be fine tuned into a better device.

The thing needs further improved in paid testing enviroment that can measure all the forces that are happening and would enable me to further design it.

Basically its above ones head thats not actuaullly involved in producing it.

I should add that its not gonna get broke, but it could be bent..

I could care a less who sees this post. I could care a less about being rich.. I would wager there is somone out there building and testing what I have done right now.

If there is a way that I or someone can get this whole new way of towing going, then great.

I will guarantee you as soon as this becomes more everyday, there will all sorts of new ideas and copies of the idea. So why worry about people stealing the idea. There is many different brands of hitches out there. and there would become many different brands of this..

I just want to see it get out there. That is what is fun to me.. I have other ideas that would make me rich anyway.

Carey


----------



## Sean Woodruff

Nathan said:


> Uh oh, I was waiting for that to come up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acutally, I have rules I must obey too (from my employer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). First, I am not allowed to hide where I work... Second, I am allowed to support the product but cannot represent that I am speaking for the company. There's also some fine print about confidentiality, which is why I can't comment on any rumors or reports unless they are official press releases.
> 
> Oh yeah, I follow the forum rules too, but I think most employers have stricter rules than this forum.


Hey Nathan, you better not advertise the idea that Ford has rules that you have to follow...









It may make some believe you are selling Fords instead of just giving solid information that you know to be true.

On some other forums there is so much useless information floating around, and some of it is flat out dangerous, that they should be shut down.

Oh, and Bill, THAT is the main reason I show up and answer post information. I have information that is true but many do not know. How moral do you think sitting by and watching information fly that I know to be false would be? I also like open discussion.

Most people will tell you they don't like advertising. Isn't it funny that as the businesses listen to people and move away from blatant, in your face, interruption advertising there are still some who would rather have a pop up ad hit them in the face?

Thank you for the kind words and support everyone.


----------



## clarkely

Caret,
From what i read and have seen from the reports of the poeple using your hitch design..........

I would have to say, it is noble what you are doing, wanting to have the Design Perfected before contemplating taking it to market........BUT, IMO, i think you have a good one now, and if you can, you should consider or re-examine getting it to the market place. There is nothing wrong with Adding technology, or improving it as you go along..............even offering a reduced rate improvement plan, so those in the begining can get the improvements at a reduced rate, basically just paying for what i sbeing added. You see this in a lot products, i personally would not see why iut would not apply to yours.

I believe it is a valuable tool/product that is needed now, for today's marketplace, and it's future demand is exponential.........








Enough Dots


----------



## Nathan

clarkely said:


> Nathan, I was only using your situation as an example
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I value your comments and insight as well!!!!
> 
> And would not want to loose them, which was the point i was trying to convey...........


Don't worry I know. Sure we all advertise things a little because we are partial to them..... (sortof like your advertisement of Suburban hitches, right?







). This has however been a great discussion and I think most of us have learned a bunch. I know that the gears have been turning in my head for days now as I run through different scenarios.

When I joined this group, I saw no need for either of these hitch types. I had seen the videos of the Hensley, and read about them on RV net. Over time, with the generally rational discussions here, I began to view them as a bandage to a problem that should be fixed using other means. Now it's been a few years, and I have quite a few miles under my belt towing big units. After these past 17 pages, I can say that I've really started to think differently about some of these special hitches. Will I ever own one? I don't know... but on page 1 I would have simply said 'No'.

And yes, everyone's inputs have been critical to this discussion being sucessful. Without hearing from proponents, critics, sceptics, and everyone in-between, you can't feel that you've gotten the whole story..


----------



## Collinsfam_WY

Sean Woodruff said:


> Uh oh, I was waiting for that to come up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acutally, I have rules I must obey too (from my employer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). First, I am not allowed to hide where I work... Second, I am allowed to support the product but cannot represent that I am speaking for the company. There's also some fine print about confidentiality, which is why I can't comment on any rumors or reports unless they are official press releases.
> 
> Oh yeah, I follow the forum rules too, but I think most employers have stricter rules than this forum.


Hey Nathan, you better not advertise the idea that Ford has rules that you have to follow...









It may make some believe you are selling Fords instead of just giving solid information that you know to be true.

On some other forums there is so much useless information floating around, and some of it is flat out dangerous, that they should be shut down.

Oh, and Bill, THAT is the main reason I show up and answer post information. I have information that is true but many do not know. How moral do you think sitting by and watching information fly that I know to be false would be? I also like open discussion.

Most people will tell you they don't like advertising. Isn't it funny that as the businesses listen to people and move away from blatant, in your face, interruption advertising there are still some who would rather have a pop up ad hit them in the face?

Thank you for the kind words and support everyone.
[/quote]

You bet Sean - your input is very much appreciated!!!!

-CC


----------



## BoaterDan

Nathan said:


> When I joined this group, I saw no need for either of these hitch types. I had seen the videos of the Hensley, and read about them on RV net. Over time, with the generally rational discussions here, I began to view them as a bandage to a problem that should be fixed using other means. Now it's been a few years, and I have quite a few miles under my belt towing big units. After these past 17 pages, I can say that I've really started to think differently about some of these special hitches. Will I ever own one? I don't know... but on page 1 I would have simply said 'No'.
> 
> And yes, everyone's inputs have been critical to this discussion being sucessful. Without hearing from proponents, critics, sceptics, and everyone in-between, you can't feel that you've gotten the whole story..


YES EXACTLY!!!

That's where I started too. I'm at the point if I won the lottery a visit to Sean's place would be the first stop on my whirlwind RV tour of the US. I'm almost to the point of formulating a specific plan to save up for one anyway.

You can chalk that up to either education or slick subtle advertising, but I can assure you I've been one of the strongest skeptics that ever existed and I'm not easily manipulated.









Carey, just one more time I'll try this. I understand why you'd want to know the answers to all those things and I admire it, truly. (One of the turn-offs about the Hensley for me has been the apparent satisfaction with sitting on the patent and raking in the dough on an overpriced hitch. Now, I believe in patent protection, but I hope every company that makes a splash with an innovation relies on continued innovation more than it.)

Either you're confident the hitch is safe "enough" as is or you aren't. If it isn't, then for God's sake get those giveaways off the road! If it is, then bring that baby to market. It's just as simple as that.


----------



## Carey

BoaterDan said:


> When I joined this group, I saw no need for either of these hitch types. I had seen the videos of the Hensley, and read about them on RV net. Over time, with the generally rational discussions here, I began to view them as a bandage to a problem that should be fixed using other means. Now it's been a few years, and I have quite a few miles under my belt towing big units. After these past 17 pages, I can say that I've really started to think differently about some of these special hitches. Will I ever own one? I don't know... but on page 1 I would have simply said 'No'.
> 
> And yes, everyone's inputs have been critical to this discussion being sucessful. Without hearing from proponents, critics, sceptics, and everyone in-between, you can't feel that you've gotten the whole story..


YES EXACTLY!!!

That's where I started too. I'm at the point if I won the lottery a visit to Sean's place would be the first stop on my whirlwind RV tour of the US. I'm almost to the point of formulating a specific plan to save up for one anyway.

You can chalk that up to either education or slick subtle advertising, but I can assure you I've been one of the strongest skeptics that ever existed and I'm not easily manipulated.









Carey, just one more time I'll try this. I understand why you'd want to know the answers to all those things and I admire it, truly. (One of the turn-offs about the Hensley for me has been the apparent satisfaction with sitting on the patent and raking in the dough on an overpriced hitch. Now, I believe in patent protection, but I hope every company that makes a splash with an innovation relies on continued innovation more than it.)

Either you're confident the hitch is safe "enough" as is or you aren't. If it isn't, then for God's sake get those giveaways off the road! If it is, then bring that baby to market. It's just as simple as that.
[/quote]

lol.. This hitch is totally safe as is..

Getting it to market is the harder part. Been working on that 2 years. Will prolly end up selling it to someone, or working for and then selling it to someone.. To be honest I have other things id like to bring about. I have another idea that would dwarf this one and make towing rv's safer yet.. You guys will never get that one out of me though.. lol I have come up with this one since designing my hitch..

I did put my dodge class 3 hitch thru pure hell and there wasnt a bit of problems with it.. The Liberty had a 3 on it and I put that thru pure hell too, and again, never a problem. Other than that the hitch has been on fords and other dodges.

I have a hard time basing that just using these hitches means it wont hurt any other hitches. I would just like to know what kind of loads are placed on the reciever hitch while using my device. Thats prolly the number one thing. Then I could be confident that there will be no trouble. If this thing causes a reciever hitch to fail, then what Dan? From all of the prototypes and testing I have done, I have seen nothing, not even a crack in a reciever hitch.. But I havent tested my hitch with a gm reciever hitch either..

This was major concern as I designed it. I still have a very hard time believing that my hitch wont hirt the reciever hitch.. From everything ive seen it doesnt.. So what to do?

No.2 is seeing stress risers in my hitch.

No.3 is tire loading info while going thru curves and braking, etc.

No.4 is vehicle stability info.

Carey


----------



## clarkely

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> When I joined this group, I saw no need for either of these hitch types. I had seen the videos of the Hensley, and read about them on RV net. Over time, with the generally rational discussions here, I began to view them as a bandage to a problem that should be fixed using other means. Now it's been a few years, and I have quite a few miles under my belt towing big units. After these past 17 pages, I can say that I've really started to think differently about some of these special hitches. Will I ever own one? I don't know... but on page 1 I would have simply said 'No'.
> 
> And yes, everyone's inputs have been critical to this discussion being sucessful. Without hearing from proponents, critics, sceptics, and everyone in-between, you can't feel that you've gotten the whole story..


YES EXACTLY!!!

That's where I started too. I'm at the point if I won the lottery a visit to Sean's place would be the first stop on my whirlwind RV tour of the US. I'm almost to the point of formulating a specific plan to save up for one anyway.

You can chalk that up to either education or slick subtle advertising, but I can assure you I've been one of the strongest skeptics that ever existed and I'm not easily manipulated.









Carey, just one more time I'll try this. I understand why you'd want to know the answers to all those things and I admire it, truly. (One of the turn-offs about the Hensley for me has been the apparent satisfaction with sitting on the patent and raking in the dough on an overpriced hitch. Now, I believe in patent protection, but I hope every company that makes a splash with an innovation relies on continued innovation more than it.)

Either you're confident the hitch is safe "enough" as is or you aren't. If it isn't, then for God's sake get those giveaways off the road! If it is, then bring that baby to market. It's just as simple as that.
[/quote]

lol.. This hitch is totally safe as is..

Getting it to market is the harder part. Been working on that 2 years. Will prolly end up selling it to someone, or working for and then selling it to someone.. To be honest I have other things id like to bring about. I have another idea that would dwarf this one and make towing rv's safer yet.. You guys will never get that one out of me though.. lol I have come up with this one since designing my hitch..

I did put my dodge class 3 hitch thru pure hell and there wasnt a bit of problems with it.. The Liberty had a 3 on it and I put that thru pure hell too, and again, never a problem. Other than that the hitch has been on fords and other dodges.

I have a hard time basing that just using these hitches means it wont hurt any other hitches. I would just like to know what kind of loads are placed on the reciever hitch while using my device. Thats prolly the number one thing. Then I could be confident that there will be no trouble. If this thing causes a reciever hitch to fail, then what Dan? From all of the prototypes and testing I have done, I have seen nothing, not even a crack in a reciever hitch.. But I havent tested my hitch with a gm reciever hitch either..

This was major concern as I designed it. I still have a very hard time believing that my hitch wont hirt the reciever hitch.. From everything ive seen it doesnt.. So what to do?

No.2 is seeing stress risers in my hitch.

No.3 is tire loading info while going thru curves and braking, etc.

No.4 is vehicle stability info.

Carey
[/quote]

Carey,
What kind of springs/shocks were/are on your unit?
I would think that if the relationship between the TV and the Hitch's suspension could be married in a way to minimize stress's in bad conditions.

When you Hook up is there no tongue weight to the receiver? I would think some form of positive weight would be good as it would be loaded and bad conditions would not stress it as much, as it would not have jerking with positive pressure and it would not unload as quickly.

I would be concerned on the lateral forces that a receiver has less potential to see in a conventional hitch receiver design as opposed to yours in cornering/turning situations. the unloading of the bags is how i read you are taking care of that.........does it do it quickly enough, is this done manually? I was thinking the simplest Automatic way to do it would be a proximity switch and a cable to the outside of the bumper........you turn at whatever predetermined degree and it dumps the bags, could also be done in a relationship to the TV front wheels or steering wheel.

in a nose dive/hard TV braking would it be possible to increase airbag pressure.......but then again if you have enough tongue weight on it won't affect as nmuch...hmmmmmmmmfine balance there.......thats where you need the engineers to run some models of the diferent scenarios








.............


----------



## BoaterDan

OK Carey, I think I understand what you're saying about the test. Have you thought about that TV show where inventors present to a panel and try to get a venture funding deal?

Another thought comes to mind... wouldn't the liability insurance company be a big factor in what testing is required. If you can't get insurance without a certain certification, that pretty much answers the question. And vice versa. No?

Finally, I'll just say that one thing I've learned being around successful entrepreneurs is that sometimes you just have to jump off the bridge before you're 100% sure about the bungie cord.


----------



## clarkely

BoaterDan said:


> Finally, I'll just say that one thing I've learned being around successful entrepreneurs is that sometimes you just have to jump off the bridge before you're 100% sure about the bungie cord.


I agree!! sometimes you have to take the chance that you will sink in order to swim successfully.

Always easy in theory.....difficult decision in practice.....but it is a common attribute amongst successful entrepreneur's


----------



## Sean Woodruff

BoaterDan said:


> ]I agree!! sometimes you have to take the chance that you will sink in order to swim successfully.
> 
> Always easy in theory.....difficult decision in practice.....but it is a common attribute amongst successful entrepreneur's


Hear, here!


----------



## Carey

clarkely said:


> When I joined this group, I saw no need for either of these hitch types. I had seen the videos of the Hensley, and read about them on RV net. Over time, with the generally rational discussions here, I began to view them as a bandage to a problem that should be fixed using other means. Now it's been a few years, and I have quite a few miles under my belt towing big units. After these past 17 pages, I can say that I've really started to think differently about some of these special hitches. Will I ever own one? I don't know... but on page 1 I would have simply said 'No'.
> 
> And yes, everyone's inputs have been critical to this discussion being sucessful. Without hearing from proponents, critics, sceptics, and everyone in-between, you can't feel that you've gotten the whole story..


YES EXACTLY!!!

That's where I started too. I'm at the point if I won the lottery a visit to Sean's place would be the first stop on my whirlwind RV tour of the US. I'm almost to the point of formulating a specific plan to save up for one anyway.

You can chalk that up to either education or slick subtle advertising, but I can assure you I've been one of the strongest skeptics that ever existed and I'm not easily manipulated.









Carey, just one more time I'll try this. I understand why you'd want to know the answers to all those things and I admire it, truly. (One of the turn-offs about the Hensley for me has been the apparent satisfaction with sitting on the patent and raking in the dough on an overpriced hitch. Now, I believe in patent protection, but I hope every company that makes a splash with an innovation relies on continued innovation more than it.)

Either you're confident the hitch is safe "enough" as is or you aren't. If it isn't, then for God's sake get those giveaways off the road! If it is, then bring that baby to market. It's just as simple as that.
[/quote]

lol.. This hitch is totally safe as is..

Getting it to market is the harder part. Been working on that 2 years. Will prolly end up selling it to someone, or working for and then selling it to someone.. To be honest I have other things id like to bring about. I have another idea that would dwarf this one and make towing rv's safer yet.. You guys will never get that one out of me though.. lol I have come up with this one since designing my hitch..

I did put my dodge class 3 hitch thru pure hell and there wasnt a bit of problems with it.. The Liberty had a 3 on it and I put that thru pure hell too, and again, never a problem. Other than that the hitch has been on fords and other dodges.

I have a hard time basing that just using these hitches means it wont hurt any other hitches. I would just like to know what kind of loads are placed on the reciever hitch while using my device. Thats prolly the number one thing. Then I could be confident that there will be no trouble. If this thing causes a reciever hitch to fail, then what Dan? From all of the prototypes and testing I have done, I have seen nothing, not even a crack in a reciever hitch.. But I havent tested my hitch with a gm reciever hitch either..

This was major concern as I designed it. I still have a very hard time believing that my hitch wont hirt the reciever hitch.. From everything ive seen it doesnt.. So what to do?

No.2 is seeing stress risers in my hitch.

No.3 is tire loading info while going thru curves and braking, etc.

No.4 is vehicle stability info.

Carey
[/quote]

Carey,
What kind of springs/shocks were/are on your unit?
I would think that if the relationship between the TV and the Hitch's suspension could be married in a way to minimize stress's in bad conditions.

When you Hook up is there no tongue weight to the receiver? I would think some form of positive weight would be good as it would be loaded and bad conditions would not stress it as much, as it would not have jerking with positive pressure and it would not unload as quickly.

I would be concerned on the lateral forces that a receiver has less potential to see in a conventional hitch receiver design as opposed to yours in cornering/turning situations. the unloading of the bags is how i read you are taking care of that.........does it do it quickly enough, is this done manually? I was thinking the simplest Automatic way to do it would be a proximity switch and a cable to the outside of the bumper........you turn at whatever predetermined degree and it dumps the bags, could also be done in a relationship to the TV front wheels or steering wheel.

in a nose dive/hard TV braking would it be possible to increase airbag pressure.......but then again if you have enough tongue weight on it won't affect as nmuch...hmmmmmmmmfine balance there.......thats where you need the engineers to run some models of the diferent scenarios








.............








[/quote]

I use between 10-20% tongue weight on my truck. This allows some rear suspension loading and added traction. I found that around 200lbs on my rear tires was suffecient not to have any traction problems.

I dint use any shocks on the hitch cause none are needed. The hitch mirrors the trucks suspension in every way. I never found a shock that I could use for a 0-2000lb suspension other than semi sleeper shocks and they dont allow enough travel. I would have to have a custom shock built and then have an adjustable dial for different weights so it would be tuned properly.

The hitches axle is very compliant because I use very low pressure. Thats why it needs no shock. The fact the the droop only weighs about 100lbs is a reason a shock isnt needed either.

Its the shock that the reciever goes thru when hitting sharp bumps is what I would like to measure. Steel can fracture from harmonics of shock. I would just like to measure that to see what the numbers are. It would help to tell me what a recievers lifespsan would be while using my hitch.

I doubt any company would do this, so prolly not a bigger.. This is stuff that is done in trucking to learn the lifespan of a steel part.

What is cool about using air is, if you have say 40psi to support 1000lbs, thats all the weight that the air bag will ever support.. Anything else and the bag will give way, or compress. The pressure will rise as the area is reduced, but the weight allowance will stay the same. So in a hard panic stop, the nose of the trailer will rise along with the truck and give a weight transfer to the truck where its needed. . (had to edit what I said there) even I screw up the explanation sometimes.

The rear of the truck will be allowed to lift up in a panic stop just like it does when empty. This allows proper weight transfer to the front brakes and front axle for control as you do a panic stop.

I can tell you its a weird feeling to feel that knowing you have a trailer behind you, your truck is lifting in the rear when quickly stopping.

I have tested in rain or under slick conditions and the rear brakes do not lock up. I would say that having abs helps. The only times I ever could make the rear brakes lock up was when I would use more than the actual tongue weight on my hitch in the air bag. I thought rear braking would be a problem when I started this, but for me and everyone whos used it, it never has been.

I can tell you all, that even though you dont feel or realize it, the nose of the trailer goes down, and then your rear of your truck goes down in panic stops right now.. The proper weight will not transfer and you will have front brakes that are losing weight as the brakes are applied right now. My hitch flips it all back the other way, like it would be empty.

Another cool thing is since an air bag will only support the weight youve ask it to do and no more, you will have a ride in your truck that works and feels as if there is no weight on the rear of your truck. Since the air bag supports the tongue weight, the truck feels like it has no weight.. Its very freakish till one gets used to it. You literally would never know you have a trailer back there if you never looked in your mirror.. It works that good.. It still flips me out eveytime I use my hitch.

Since we are using sub 40psi for 1000lb hitch weights the air bag deflates almost instantly. So yep Clark one could use an optical sensor to quickly deflate the bag as a turn was started. I do it now with a toggle switch. I just have never gotten that far and figured exactly where Id put a sensor. One person mention to put it on the ball coupler nose and hitch head, and that would prolly work fine.

There is no hitch stress while making a turn, because there is no weight on the tires. The twist from the axle seperation that would be created at the hitch is no removed when the weight is taken off of the tires.

I basically have done the job an inventor is supposed to do. I have designed, tested, prototyped and gotten opinions. The inventors part is done.. Now I have to decide to market it myself or find someone that would like to do it. Since I have not one single extra dollar to invest in it at this point. I need to stop messing with it would prolly be the smart thing. Since I know this thing would help so many it hard to stop. Companies have been just as weary about this thing as anyone looking at it..

Its just crazy that I can be out on the road with the hitch and people walk up to it, and say hmmm, I dont get it.. Ive even had engineers do that. The vast majority of the population has no clue of an idea that is so simple, that could cure everything they ever experience or dont like about towing.. It makes me laugh cause this thing is right in your face but its not seen.. Ive actually had to sit down and have 30 minute conversation with engineers while on the road to explain it.. I have to tell the the physics and mechanics of proper weight balance and what that can do for you along with the fixture of the ball point. Then when they get it, they say, dude, this is the greatest towing invention ever made! Man you gotta get this thing out there!

For an example of this, look at this thread right here.

My idea is so closely related to what is done in trucking everyday, that I thought everyone would get it quickly... Boy have I been wrong.. I think of my hitch as the ford edsel. Ahead of its time. I have had to fight and convince everyone, everywhere I go that there is another answer to the problem of towing, and people still will never get it. I have laughed and cried about this problem.

A company would need to invest prolly 10-20million in an advertisng budget to make the thing whorth while to them. To make this succesfull, a hard drive of education on the hitch is needed. I cant think of not one single company willing to do this in the times we live in.

Its now time to have it pro tetsed to have it further refined and perfected to make it ready for consumer use. Will it ever be pro tested.. I say no at this point, because for me, the buck stops here.. I have not one single more buck and it does take at least a small pile of bucks to even get loans, venture or angel money. I am broke! Finding a company that believes in it and will do the rest of what is needed is just not gonna happen till the economy gets better or this perfect storm that may be brewing for my device actually begins to come about.. Then I could simply announce I have a fix and the invetors would be knocking down my door to get in line to make there fair share on it.

I have come to the conclusion that there are gonna be so many deaths for so many towing miles travelled. This is acceptable. People will complain that they have a problem and wish there was an answer, and when a guy builds it for them, it is so simple that they simple cant understand that all of there problems could be fixed so easy.

Its only human to have a major problem and expect it would take a high tech fix to repair there problem. But when somone is shown a simple device that will totally cure there complicated problem, they do not have the ability to understand it.. I am no different. Its just how we are made..

I was listening to CNBC last night and there was a guy saying we are going into a time when new high tech products are going into a slow time. He says that finding new high tech ideas and products in the high tech world we live in is gtting to be less and less cause we pretty much have already done it..

I thought to myself... How closed minded you are pal..

I feel we are about to go thru a transition that we have never seen and we will see things done beyond our normal thoughts of now. I feel our high tech products are based on normal thoughts.

The high tech stuff will come when people allow it to happen and expand there minds..We will find many simple answers for our problems when that happens.. My device is so simple that it wont be out for us till its decided its high tech.. Makes me laugh..

Like I have said before, nothing will change till we see the shrinkage of our tow vehicles.. Then things will change overnight. It just so happens my clock is broke..

Carey


----------



## clarkely

Carey,
Maybe you outta get one made for me....i will pay the parts...and we can see how it does with the propride.........i will run both in Tandem









any thought or experiments done with a steering axle on your hitch?


----------



## Carey

I tested a full time steerable model that I made and almost wrecked my truck. It felt squirrely in curves and the first curve I went over the yellow recommended sign limit, I all but put it in the ditch. Since the trailer naturally pushes you in a curve, the weight transfer to the tongue seemed as if it could easilly overtake any control that was coming from the tv rear axle.

With non steerable wheels the trailer has a much harder time pushing you because the more force that is applied to a set of seperated axles, the more control you will feel from the friction that is created between them. This allows taking curves with a loaded rv way, way over the allowable limit, or any speed you can go now.

Went home and cut that hitch in two cause it almost got me..

Using part time steerable wheels for my extremely compact design will never work because the tires steer right into the trailer tongue. A hitch would need to be designed much bigger to have steerable wheels. On my compact design even in a wide turn the tires would be close to hitting. You would need 4 inches of tire swing at minimum and you can see that my hitches tires are close to the structure. Its hard to believe how much would be added to the hitch to make it have part time steerable wheels. Full time is easy.. Part time pretty much changes everything.

The benifit to my hitch would be gone with full time steerable wheels. Remember that my hitch creates a fixture point for the trailer to follow by the use of axle seperation AND non steerable wheels.

Google trailer toad. That one uses full time steerable wheels. It works good with motorhomes but thats it. Many people have complained of the rear end feeling dangerously light when pulling lighter rv's like ours. So they pretty much just cater to mh's pulling very heavy stacker type race car trailers. No benifit is gained in directional stability. The only benefit is the weight support.

A larger design using a double wishbone suspension and a set of ball joints might be fun to try. That way the tires could swing in a steering inclination like a car. All the guys who have used steerable wheels have used a swinging axle. That adds alot of needed clearence. But if one was to go double wishbone with a set of two air bags, and ball joints, the price would go out of sight. Semi steerable add on axles start at about 12k. You would be in the 4-5k range for a hitch with an independant suspension and part time steerable set of wheels. You would still need to add some sort of very strong electrical solinoid or elctric over hydralic set up to be able to turn the steering on and off and have it able to be strong enough to be the point of control for both the truck and trailer.

If you used both hitches I would think a larger diam reciever would be needed, but it is entirely possible.. I bet sean wouldnt recommend that, lol

Here is a video of turning a corner thru a dip.. The dump bag idea works great. click


----------



## clarkely

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> I tested a full time steerable model that I made and almost wrecked my truck. It felt squirrely in curves and the first curve I went over the yellow recommended sign limit, I all but put it in the ditch. Since the trailer naturally pushes you in a curve, the weight transfer to the tongue seemed as if it could easilly overtake any control that was coming from the tv rear axle.
> 
> With non steerable wheels the trailer has a much harder time pushing you because the more force that is applied to a set of seperated axles, the more control you will feel from the friction that is created between them. This allows taking curves with a loaded rv way, way over the allowable limit, or any speed you can go now.
> 
> Went home and cut that hitch in two cause it almost got me..
> 
> Using part time steerable wheels for my extremely compact design will never work because the tires steer right into the trailer tongue. A hitch would need to be designed much bigger to have steerable wheels. On my compact design even in a wide turn the tires would be close to hitting. You would need 4 inches of tire swing at minimum and you can see that my hitches tires are close to the structure. Its hard to believe how much would be added to the hitch to make it have part time steerable wheels. Full time is easy.. Part time pretty much changes everything.
> 
> The benifit to my hitch would be gone with full time steerable wheels. Remember that my hitch creates a fixture point for the trailer to follow by the use of axle seperation AND non steerable wheels.
> 
> Google trailer toad. That one uses full time steerable wheels. It works good with motorhomes but thats it. Many people have complained of the rear end feeling dangerously light when pulling lighter rv's like ours. So they pretty much just cater to mh's pulling very heavy stacker type race car trailers. No benifit is gained in directional stability. The only benefit is the weight support.
> 
> A larger design using a double wishbone suspension and a set of ball joints might be fun to try. That way the tires could swing in a steering inclination like a car. All the guys who have used steerable wheels have used a swinging axle. That adds alot of needed clearence. But if one was to go double wishbone with a set of two air bags, and ball joints, the price would go out of sight. Semi steerable add on axles start at about 12k. You would be in the 4-5k range for a hitch with an independant suspension and part time steerable set of wheels. You would still need to add some sort of very strong electrical solinoid or elctric over hydralic set up to be able to turn the steering on and off and have it able to be strong enough to be the point of control for both the truck and trailer.
> 
> If you used both hitches I would think a larger diam reciever would be needed, but it is entirely possible.. I bet sean wouldnt recommend that, lol
> 
> Here is a video of turning a corner thru a dip.. The dump bag idea works great. click


I bet sean would be into it!! Increased braking, better fuel mileage & power, along with a good anti-sway device................what more could you sak for? Plus with GM's integrated, uderated hitch receiver..................it would be the best of both worlds for my situation.........

I think i need to be the Test Model fo rthe combination


----------



## Carey

lol


----------



## AZthunderations

PDX_Doug said:


> Sheesh! Maybe I'll just go back to a tent!
> Either that or a dually pulling a fifth wheel (would that solve my pivot point inadequacies?)
> 
> Hmm... I wonder which I'd be happier with...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Happy Trails,
> Doug


Get the dually and use it to haul the tent.


----------



## Carey

Hey Clark.. Here I sit in Duncansville, Pa. Dude its 59 degrees! Wheres summer at! Its the middle of August! Should be about 75 and muggy on a mid august night here in Pa..

Man, Im gonna have to get my blanky unpacked..

Carey


----------



## BoaterDan

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> It felt squirrely in curves and the first curve I went over the yellow recommended sign limit, I all but put it in the ditch.


See, now THAT'S testing that matters!


----------



## clarkely

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Hey Clark.. Here I sit in Duncansville, Pa. Dude its 59 degrees! Wheres summer at! Its the middle of August! Should be about 75 and muggy on a mid august night here in Pa..
> 
> Man, Im gonna have to get my blanky unpacked..
> 
> Carey


are you heading east? If so give me a hollar and we can BS over some beers........my treat!! As i work you over to be the test model for the HH/PP combination


----------



## Carey

BoaterDan said:


> It felt squirrely in curves and the first curve I went over the yellow recommended sign limit, I all but put it in the ditch.


See, now THAT'S testing that matters!








[/quote]

Dan, All testing matters...

Go invent something and find out yourself the scanarios and questions that cross your mind.

Go ahead and invent a hitch that could be used in any way for towing. The testing questions I have are the same anyone would have. The road testing I have done is on the minimum side for anyone to decide if my device will work for every on road scenario that we may see. A paid test would allow us to quickly rule out anything that could ever come up other than what I have already done.

The NHTSA takes every complaint and problem with your device. If they get to many, they make you do a recall. For many companies they are now out of biz. If you have documented testing that is "over the top" they treat you much better than if you have no testing. The NHTSA are people to, and they take the word "testing" not for granted.

Any automotive product is RULED by NHTSA and FMVSS. When a company shows they care, these groups show greater care in return.

Go ahead and keep jabbing...

I will roast you with facts!

Carey


----------



## Carey

clarkely said:


> Hey Clark.. Here I sit in Duncansville, Pa. Dude its 59 degrees! Wheres summer at! Its the middle of August! Should be about 75 and muggy on a mid august night here in Pa..
> 
> Man, Im gonna have to get my blanky unpacked..
> 
> Carey


are you heading east? If so give me a hollar and we can BS over some beers........my treat!! As i work you over to be the test model for the HH/PP combination








[/quote]

Thats as far as I got Clark. I had a rv delivery there this morning. Shoot im already 1/2 way accross ohio.

Where in PA do you live. You guys buy lots of rvs, because everytime I see the delivery list there are bunches going there. I think im heading far west for the weekend.

Carey


----------



## Sean Woodruff

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> The NHTSA takes every complaint and problem with your device. If they get to many, they make you do a recall. For many companies they are now out of biz. If you have documented testing that is "over the top" they treat you much better than if you have no testing. The NHTSA are people to, and they take the word "testing" not for granted.
> 
> Any automotive product is RULED by NHTSA and FMVSS. When a company shows they care, these groups show greater care in return.


It might surprise some people to know that NHTSA used a Jim Hensley designed hitch that has never been "professionally" tested as a fix for Holiday Rambler model that was recalled in the early 90s. They required it to be welded to the frame and a plaque attached to the side of the frame that stated it was mandatory for the trailer to be towed with that hitch.


----------



## clarkely

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Hey Clark.. Here I sit in Duncansville, Pa. Dude its 59 degrees! Wheres summer at! Its the middle of August! Should be about 75 and muggy on a mid august night here in Pa..
> 
> Man, Im gonna have to get my blanky unpacked..
> 
> Carey


are you heading east? If so give me a hollar and we can BS over some beers........my treat!! As i work you over to be the test model for the HH/PP combination








[/quote]

Thats as far as I got Clark. I had a rv delivery there this morning. Shoot im already 1/2 way accross ohio.

Where in PA do you live. You guys buy lots of rvs, because everytime I see the delivery list there are bunches going there. I think im heading far west for the weekend.

Carey
[/quote]

I am about an hour above phily and an hour east of Nj........lansdale area........


----------



## clarkely

Sean Woodruff said:


> The NHTSA takes every complaint and problem with your device. If they get to many, they make you do a recall. For many companies they are now out of biz. If you have documented testing that is "over the top" they treat you much better than if you have no testing. The NHTSA are people to, and they take the word "testing" not for granted.
> 
> Any automotive product is RULED by NHTSA and FMVSS. When a company shows they care, these groups show greater care in return.


It might surprise some people to know that NHTSA used a Jim Hensley designed hitch that has never been "professionally" tested as a fix for Holiday Rambler model that was recalled in the early 90s. They required it to be welded to the frame and a plaque attached to the side of the frame that stated it was mandatory for the trailer to be towed with that hitch.
[/quote]

That there is some interesting stuff................i did a quick lemon law search......... Clicky

Even amongst this discussion..........i learned something new today............. gotta love this place


----------



## Carey

Sean Woodruff said:


> The NHTSA takes every complaint and problem with your device. If they get to many, they make you do a recall. For many companies they are now out of biz. If you have documented testing that is "over the top" they treat you much better than if you have no testing. The NHTSA are people to, and they take the word "testing" not for granted.
> 
> Any automotive product is RULED by NHTSA and FMVSS. When a company shows they care, these groups show greater care in return.


It might surprise some people to know that NHTSA used a Jim Hensley designed hitch that has never been "professionally" tested as a fix for Holiday Rambler model that was recalled in the early 90s. They required it to be welded to the frame and a plaque attached to the side of the frame that stated it was mandatory for the trailer to be towed with that hitch.
[/quote]

I had read that somewhere too. But again, if there ever IS a problem, its nice to have professional testing that has already been done. If NHTSA makes you do it becuase of a possible problem, it gets very expensive. One can have it done one his own much cheaper.

And again, Knowone requires testing of any sort. Your word is as good as gold with the agencies.. Its when a problem arises, it becomes possibly a forced issue and that changes things a bit.

Since you based yours off of an old proven design, quite possibly youll be fine.

My hitch is out of the blue. Any normal person or company would do all they can to be sure it will withstand the test of time, engineer or not.

Carey

ps.. Now that I thunk on it, I remember reading that on the dark side. You guys know what I mean.. It was one of those flaming threads they have over there. lol

But it just shows the power these agencies have over any pieces, part, device, or vehicle that is, or has ever been made.


----------



## Carey

Since my hitch will be used in commercial applications it must meet FMCSA rules.

I pasted what it says:
h)(8) Passenger car-trailer type couplings. Trailer couplings used for driveaway-towaway operations of passenger car trailers shall conform to Society of Automotive Engineers Standard No. J684c, "Trailer Couplings and Hitches-Automotive Type," July 1970

Click for link to above quote

Click for actual copy of requirements of SAE J684 test in pdf form

Presently there are no requirments for non commercial vehicles concerning hitch standards. I for one do not like this. The test is not a big deal and it helps to ensure everyone is playing on the same table.

SAE will rate a hitch in class of 1 thru 4. There are no other class ratings above class 4. Mfrs use class 5 to let you know that it has standards above class 4.

Would you buy a reciever hitch with no known rating on it? Then whats the difference with a w/d sway hitch? The rest of our hitching products should at least meet the same rating as our reciever hitches do. All of our reciever hitches go thru the J684 test to allow us to know of its class rating. Then why is there people putting out hitch products without going thru the J684 test?

I would bet within 5 years, all hitch products sold in the USA, requardless of origin point will be required to carry a SAE J684 label on the hitch itself.

I have come accross several awereness websites since learning all this hitch stuff. They are forming groups to ask NHTSA to make all hitch products comply with SAE J684 standards. NHTSA has been very favorable to it in initial talks. I will look for that link when I get a chance.. Might be a few days till I get home to find it.

Having one set standard only protects us all.

Its really nothing to fight about. Hitch safety is very, very important to me, as im sure it is to any one of you here.

The costs associated with the test is really nothing for the mfrs and sellers of all hitch products.

The most important thing is it sets a standard for all of us to rely on.

Im thankful I live in a country that even has requirments that can be met, because many of the other countries dont and you as well as I know that having no rules makes things much more dangerous for all.

Carey


----------



## clarkely

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Im thankful I live in a country that even has requirments that can be met, because many of the other countries dont and you as well as I know that having no rules makes things much more dangerous for all.
> 
> Carey


Careful what you wish for............... When you are in business for awhile you have different views on some of our govts. rules & regs.......they get farcical at times.......

I am waiting for legislation that tells me how i can go to the bathroom......... its only a matter of time
















.............


----------



## BoaterDan

I had a really long response typed out, but I think we're repeating ourselves. I'll abbreviate what I wrote by repeating that you can't possibly ever be 100% sure there's no risks involved with using your product. Many products that are taken for granted today started as a hobby in somebody's garage and any of us could have come up with 100 reasons it was too risky to continue making it 6 months into the product's life. Manufacturing entrepreneurs have the special and fairly uncommon ability (which I don't for the most part) to sleep fine at night knowing those risks exist and they'll just deal with the consequences when they arise.

Do what you need to do, but if you're not prepared to jump off the bridge at some point with less than 100% assurances, you'll never go to market. I mean this to be encouragement, not argument, cuz I want to see you go to market.


----------



## Carey

clarkely said:


> Im thankful I live in a country that even has requirments that can be met, because many of the other countries dont and you as well as I know that having no rules makes things much more dangerous for all.
> 
> Carey


Careful what you wish for............... When you are in business for awhile you have different views on some of our govts. rules & regs.......they get farcical at times.......

I am waiting for legislation that tells me how i can go to the bathroom......... its only a matter of time
















.............








[/quote]

Im only thankful. I dont wish for, because the SAE test is already here for all of us to use. Wishful thinking isnt needed here.

Yep, I do agree on the rules and regs part. And yes they are getting worse.

Having all of our hitching products sold in the US go thru the same test is one im for. Its not going to be too long anyway, so people should just get over it, get the testing done, fix any problems, and slap a sticker on..

That way a guy who would like to use a hitch product for his work or commercial use can without having to worry about it.. Yes the law isnt very enforced. But I have had them look at the gvw of my trailer, then look at the hitch and hitch head and make sure everything is equal to the gvw of the trailer. The guys tell me, they dont write tickets for it, but many will write you a 10 day to get er fixed ticket, or a verbal warning.

Right now we have to be picky about what we buy. It would be so much easier for us to just be able to buy our hitch products all for a certain class that we would like to be using.

Im sure the general public would like this also..

Carey


----------



## Sean Woodruff

clarkely said:


> I am waiting for legislation that tells me how i can go to the bathroom......... its only a matter of time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .............


Hey Clarke,

That's in the health care bill. It's in the section with limited PSA testing and limited colonoscopies.

To be fair they figured they already covered us not needing those tests in the reaming they gave us all with their stimulus package.


----------



## Carey

BoaterDan said:


> I had a really long response typed out, but I think we're repeating ourselves. I'll abbreviate what I wrote by repeating that you can't possibly ever be 100% sure there's no risks involved with using your product. Many products that are taken for granted today started as a hobby in somebody's garage and any of us could have come up with 100 reasons it was too risky to continue making it 6 months into the product's life. Manufacturing entrepreneurs have the special and fairly uncommon ability (which I don't for the most part) to sleep fine at night knowing those risks exist and they'll just deal with the consequences when they arise.
> 
> Do what you need to do, but if you're not prepared to jump off the bridge at some point with less than 100% assurances, you'll never go to market. I mean this to be encouragement, not argument, cuz I want to see you go to market.


I'll get it to market when Im ready...

Im sick of fighting with you guys about testing.

I will cater to commercial guys as well as anyone else..

I will go thru whatever it takes to make it safe and legal for everyone to use.

I dont know why you think jumping off the bridge has anything to do with assurances. Dude, I know this..

All I have ever said was my hitch needs some further pro road testing, some reciever analysis, and made to meet SAE standards. What is so wrong about that. My hitch is an unknown design.

You guys have all told me to just jump off the bridge and start selling that baby.. Maybe some of you think Im weak if I just dont dive in.. I have said, I will do things on my time and get the testing done as things go forward. Its all a slow process for me because im not rich. Im not giving it up and will continue to move my device forward.

Some that jump off a bridge die. I dont want to die, so I will do things that I feel are proper so I have a soft landing..

This has nothing to do with Seans hitch. Prolly out of everyone that has looked at his hitch, Im one of the few who found fault with it. I mentioned that and its been a slow roast since.. This isnt about engineer stuff or how much a guy knows.. It simple US rules and regs for devices used in commercial use.

I added my thoughts about my feelings to him of SAE testing a few pages back. Yea I ripped him, cause I would have never thought this would have been an issue to Sean.. Well it is.. So I said Im sorry and I hoped we could move on.

There are many people who have sway problems that use there trailers for there work.. I would think that anyone who builds any hitch product would like to help these people too.. I was just very surprised and the more we discussed it, the madder I got..

Get over it..

I have posted why I have to do at least SAE testing on my hitch.

Its not a choice for me, its a requirement..

Carey


----------



## Sean Woodruff

Hey Carey,

You might have noticed I haven't posted because... I am not arguing with your point of view. I just happen to have another one. I don't care if you think my point of view is wrong so there is really no argument here. For that matter, I don't see anyone else arguing with you either.

Having a bad day?

Read this, I think it will help...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilting_at_windmills


----------



## Carey

Sean Woodruff said:


> Hey Carey,
> 
> You might have noticed I haven't posted because... I am not arguing with your point of view. I just happen to have another one. I don't care if you think my point of view is wrong so there is really no argument here. For that matter, I don't see anyone else arguing with you either.
> 
> Having a bad day?
> 
> Read this, I think it will help...
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilting_at_windmills


 lol

I dont want to ague with ya either Sean. Your point of view isnt wrong. There are US regs to make hitches legal for commercial use. Yea, I went about it wrong to make my point with you.. I said Im sorry. You took it as a personal hit on the engineering of your product. I didnt mean for it to sound that way and was very surprised that your device isnt FMSCA legal. Its cool, but my surprise clouded my ability to talk about this with you. Since I have worked with commercial vehicles my whole life, I am a bit biased..

Guys that make livings deserve to be as safe as anyone else. So I get upset when someone has this awesome product like you do. Us guys who have to use it for our work cant because the company hasnt made it legal for us to use it. I get very mad and non-understanding about that.

Im having a great day, but I havent hit the highway yet either..

I Carey have tilted windmills my whole life.. Yes at times its not been fun.. But I can say I am thankful ive been this way, because maybe someday people will understand what I have done to change a few things in our world. I will die happy knowing in the end I have helped to make this place better for all. If Tilting Windmills is a good definition of me, I'll gladly take it. I can tell ya, I was born this way.

For the matter of it. People just want me to jump in and dont quite understand my methods. They keep telling me this everyday here on our book. They keep using different ways of telling me my testing ideas are not needed.. Telling me my tests are out of the norm.. People are not argueing with me. They dont understand my thoughts. Many would just deal with any QC issues later. I will continue to, as you call it, Tilt the windmill.. My product screams tilting windmills.

Maybe I should have my lil green piggy between my two tires dragging a tilted windmill behind it and use this as my logo.. Man that would fit!

My device is out of the norm. Its not based an anything that has ever been done, except using a wheel at the tongue of the trailer. A device that is all new needs all the refienment and safety testing one can do. The ideas of plugging it into the vehicle and adding stability is new. All of the old ones had swivel wheels mounted below the toungue.

It can be quickly turned into a failure like vehicles like the Corvair if some unknown problem crops up. The chance of having an unknown problem is much easier delt with when found in deeper testing before the product makes it out there.

I owned a late 60's turbo Corvair Monza. It was a fast machine with some "carey windmill tilting engineereing" and easilly kept up with many muscle cars.. I whipped a good bunch of them. Yes, my laughed at Corvair had a bad reputation, but after GM fixed the problems that had not been found in testing, the car was a really great car. I will have my product at a point where it never goes thru the Corvair stage. Yep, my ole corvair tilted the windmill... I made my point in the end when they would loose my taillights either in drag races or out handling them.

I wish I had my ole corvair, as now it could be used to pull an rv using my lil piggy hitch.

Talk about winning the non winnable war then.. Lol We would have to paint a windmill standing straight up on my hood..

Carey


----------



## BoaterDan

I must have turned left when the road went right a few pages back. I thought you were talking specifically about one particular test where they were going to apply ungodly forces no person would encounter in normal use to see what it took to literally crack the hitch in half. I'm all for testing as much as you can afford, just as Sean has said he has done. I just don't see a need for THAT kind of test that would seem to have little to do with the real world.

My comment about "real" testing a while back was supposed to be humorous commentary. As I imagined your white-knuckled battle to survive that curve I couldn't help but smile thinking of the guys jumping off cliffs with paper wings trying to fly. I meant "real" testing in the sense of really pushing the envelope at great personal peril. My comment was not meant to have anything to do with anything else we've discussed.

I think we've beat this to death. I wish you the best of luck in doing whatever you feel you need to do.


----------



## Carey

BoaterDan said:


> I must have turned left when the road went right a few pages back. I thought you were talking specifically about one particular test where they were going to apply ungodly forces no person would encounter in normal use to see what it took to literally crack the hitch in half. I'm all for testing as much as you can afford, just as Sean has said he has done. I just don't see a need for THAT kind of test that would seem to have little to do with the real world.
> 
> My comment about "real" testing a while back was supposed to be humorous commentary. As I imagined your white-knuckled battle to survive that curve I couldn't help but smile thinking of the guys jumping off cliffs with paper wings trying to fly. I meant "real" testing in the sense of really pushing the envelope at great personal peril. My comment was not meant to have anything to do with anything else we've discussed.
> 
> I think we've beat this to death. I wish you the best of luck in doing whatever you feel you need to do.


Thats part of the SAE testing Dan.

Heres how it works. If you are confident you can just send one hitch. They will put the required amount of tension in the required directions to what class you would like to have for your hitch.

This only costs like 3k.

But for new designs they will do all these tests till the hitch fails so you know where the stress points of the hitch are. They will video it in hi res, so you can slowly watch where the hitch failed. He said people have slightly changed there construction or angles, etc. and he has seen people double the strength of a device using this infinite analysis if I remember the correct wording he used.

The SAE testing lab I spoke with recommended doing this after he seen my hitch. He said its a great way to find any weak spots on a new unknown device.

So basically they will do the push down test till it fails, breaks, bends, etc, Then they will do the pull thru test, then they will do the side test.

He said If I wanted I could send a 4th hitch and have them do a twist test till it fails. He said he'd do that one for free. So send him 4 hitches and 6k and I would know every failure point in every angle possible.

He said many large companies send him newly fangled devices and have him destroy them. He sends back a hi res video so the company can analyze it.

He said my hitch looked very well designed and well engineered.. He said though, he would enjoy destroying my hitches. He said its the very greatest way to know how many times over it has been engineered. Like Nathan had brought up. Things should be built to a point of 2.. I dont talk engineer lingo, and thats all this guy was able to speak. So whatever the correct wording he used is beyond me..

And he also said since he was a metal structural engineer dude, he would tell me his thoughts after each destruction and any ways my hitch could be lightened, improved on, etc for free.. The guy was a nice guy and I feel for what Id be getting, 6k is nothing, except right now when my job is paying right at 1/2 of what it used to pay because of the economy. So I will simply wait till I can do it and continue to go forward.

If you read that really great Jim Hensley story on Seans site, it took him many years to get his hitch out there also.

Its kinda funny.. Jims idea also came out of that clean clear high altitude air of Colorado. If I remember the story right the Hensley hitch took 20 years to develop into what it is.. Mine is no different. Hopefully I can have it out in 5 years if I do it myself, but I could see it taking 20 years for mine too..

I can tell ya, you have as hard of time following me as I do you.. So lets call it a draw..

Carey


----------



## BoaterDan

Sean Woodruff said:


> That's in the health care bill. It's in the section with limited PSA testing and limited colonoscopies.
> 
> To be fair they figured they already covered us not needing those tests in the reaming they gave us all with their stimulus package.


That's good.









Carey, I got it, and I understand your position. Disagree with waiting for that test, but understand.

I was serious about that TV show. It's just regular people they have on there that have come up with ideas (and usually developed a prototype). You could get your funding and 15 minutes of fame on TV at the same time!









If Colorado is like Michigan, there is an organization or two that works to hook up people like you with venture capitalists in the state.

Those options require you to give up some financial stake in the product of course, but the thinking goes that 50% of whatever is better than 100% of nothing.


----------



## Carey

I'll wait....

The tv show is no longer on and you had to sign a contract that you only recieve 2% of net.. Thats why the show failed. All the people with good ideas werent gonna sign that..

My hitch will be out when im satisfied, am ready to bring it out, and the world is ready to recieve it. None of these 3 exist right now so I will happily wait.

Carey


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