# Unrealistic Gvwr On My Outback 277Rl



## Already Gone (Feb 25, 2013)

Hopefully, this will spark a healthy discussion on the weight rating (GVWR) of TTs and the honesty of manufacturers in stating realistic shipping weight.

I have been towing boats for over 25 years without a single incident resulting in being stranded on the side of the road. I attribute this to being diligent about maintenance as well as paying attention to trailer loads and towing vehicle capabilities.

With that being said, I recently purchased a new 2013 Outback 277RL. I tow it with a 2008 Ford F250 PSD 6.4L 2WD with a HD tow package. In selecting this TT, I knew that my TV was well capable of towing this trailer. However, I never thought to look at the GVWR of the trailer at the time of purchase. To my surprise.... ahhhh!!! I found that the GVWR of the TT is a measly 8600. What makes this a MEASLY figure is that the ADVERTISED (haha) shipping weight is 7402. This gives me a lofty 1198 pounds of cargo capacity which includes water, and anything in the holding tanks. IFFF... the shipping weight of the trailer was even close to true, one might be able to live within these means. However, as I have found, by reading lots of threads, the shipping weight is never the true empty weight of the trailer as it does not include optional equipment.

After arriving home from my first trip, and before unloading, I took the trailer down to a local recycling yard to weigh the trailer. As the yard was very busy I only had time to weigh the trailer on the single scale there. To my surprise I was 25 pounds under the GVWR of the TT. I had nothing in the holding tanks or in the water tank and our food supply was near depleted. So I was overloaded when I left on the trip... not something I would ever intentionally do.

I weighed all of our stuff in the trailer and from that approximated the shipping weight to be at least 8000 lbs. (not the 7402) This leaves me with 600 pounds for our personal stuff AND anything in the water tank AND holding tanks. This wouldn't accommodate a couple of weight conscious backpackers.

To summarize...
Stated shipping weight 7402
Actual empty weight ~8000 (at least)
TT GVWR 8600

How critical is the GVWR of the trailer? Is this figure accurately stated? Obviously, if it is exceeded enough tire blowouts, axle problems etc will occur. It seems I have a trailer that's not usable as is, and stay within the GVWR... Or am I way off base? This seems to be blatantly dishonest of Keystone to underestimate the shipping weight of the trailer.

Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


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## Todd&Regan (Jul 1, 2010)

That's very interesting, and honestly, not something I've given much thought to. I've always figured that the factory dry weight is a "ball park" figure, but wouldn't have thought it would be that far off. I've had my Outback for three years and have never had it on a scale, although I have previously planned on getting it weighed sometime this summer. I don't think anyone would recommend exceeding the GVWR. It'll be interesting to see what others think.


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## Snow (Sep 27, 2011)

From what I understand the shipping weight is the weight the trailer weighed when it left the factory, all options, battery box, empty propane tanks... the stuff added at the dealer , slide toppers, battery, propane and anything the dealer may swap out would have to be added to the ship weight... Dry weight is that of the stripped down trailer, no options, no extras, no frills ...


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## Hitcher (Mar 29, 2013)

We may be on our own here, My 286fk specs say 975lb tounge weight mine scales at 725lbs ???


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## TwoElkhounds (Mar 11, 2007)

As I understand it, each trailer is weighed when it leaves the factory and a custom DOT sticker is made and put on the unit. Look on any dealer lot and you will see that the DOT stickers on any two identical units will not match. I am going to bet the number on your sticker is fairly accurate.

I would think that your weighing and estimating process has a flaw in it somewhere. Also don't forget things like the battery, hitch hardware, and the propane, these are not included in the GVWR and add considerable weight. Any dealer added options or mods you have done are also not in the GVWR.

If you really want an accurate answer, you need to take everything out of the trailer and get it weighed completely empty at a certified scale. I would not trust the recycle center scale since they are really only concerned about the differential weight, not the actual weight on the trailer.

DAN


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## cdnbayside (Jul 16, 2009)

The axles are rated to 4400 lbs each and the tires are 2540 lbs each.
8800 lbs max for axles
10160 lbs max for tires

Add a 15% tongue weight to the 8800 lb axle rating = 1320 lbs max on the tongue.

Real GVWR, 8800 + 1320 = 10,120 lbs.


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## TwoElkhounds (Mar 11, 2007)

As an addition to my above post, Holmans Motors includes pictures of the DOT stickers of each trailer on their website. You can look at these and see that the DOT stickers are custom for each unit and generally will vary by a few pounds in either direction.

DAN


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## TwoElkhounds (Mar 11, 2007)

cdnbayside said:


> The axles are rated to 4400 lbs each and the tires are 2540 lbs each.
> 8800 lbs max for axles
> 10160 lbs max for tires
> 
> ...


All true, but there may be a limitation on the frame that is creating the 8600lb restiction.

DAN


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## KTMRacer (Jun 28, 2010)

my yellow sticker on my 295RE was within 50lbs of what I measured when I left the lot with an empty trailer andd went to the scales. and it was within 25lbs of of what keystone said was empty weight on the website. The yellow sticker is the actual weight of the trailer as it rolled off the assembly line ready to deliver to you, which is without any propane in the tanks or battery(s) on the tongue, but with ALL the options on the trailer.

What does your yellow sticker say the empty weight is??

That said I will say it is NOT hard on a trailer the size of the 277 or 295 to add 1500-2000lbs of stuff by the time your done. propane =60lbs, batteries, 125lbs, it all adds up in a hurry.


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## Already Gone (Feb 25, 2013)

TwoElkhounds said:


> As I understand it, each trailer is weighed when it leaves the factory and a custom DOT sticker is made and put on the unit. Look on any dealer lot and you will see that the DOT stickers on any two identical units will not match. I am going to bet the number on your sticker is fairly accurate.
> 
> I would think that your weighing and estimating process has a flaw in it somewhere. Also don't forget things like the battery, hitch hardware, and the propane, these are not included in the GVWR and add considerable weight. Any dealer added options or mods you have done are also not in the GVWR.
> 
> ...


You bring up a good point about the scales not being accurate in the absolute since. As long as they are using the scales exclusively for differential, which I would think would be the case, they don't care what the absolute weight is. I certainly hope my estimating process has a flaw somewhere, which is why I posted here.

Thanks Dan


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## Already Gone (Feb 25, 2013)

KTMRacer said:


> my yellow sticker on my 295RE was within 50lbs of what I measured when I left the lot with an empty trailer andd went to the scales. and it was within 25lbs of of what keystone said was empty weight on the website. The yellow sticker is the actual weight of the trailer as it rolled off the assembly line ready to deliver to you, which is without any propane in the tanks or battery(s) on the tongue, but with ALL the options on the trailer.
> 
> What does your yellow sticker say the empty weight is??
> 
> That said I will say it is NOT hard on a trailer the size of the 277 or 295 to add 1500-2000lbs of stuff by the time your done. propane =60lbs, batteries, 125lbs, it all adds up in a hurry.


I was not aware of the yellow sticker until your mention of it. So I searched and finally found it. It says 7540. Also, it states not to exceed 1000 lbs of cargo. Now, you are saying that figure does not include the propane (60) and batteries (125). That leaves me with 850 lbs for personal items, WATER, holding tanks etc... Wow!! That gives me 500 lbs at most for our clothes food etc. That is ridiculous for trailer this size!! Fortunately, it is only my wife and I. There is no way a family of four could use this trailer and stay within the GVWR of 8600.

Thanks for your comments, KTMRacer.


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## Bill & Kate (Apr 28, 2012)

Already Gone said:


> my yellow sticker on my 295RE was within 50lbs of what I measured when I left the lot with an empty trailer andd went to the scales. and it was within 25lbs of of what keystone said was empty weight on the website. The yellow sticker is the actual weight of the trailer as it rolled off the assembly line ready to deliver to you, which is without any propane in the tanks or battery(s) on the tongue, but with ALL the options on the trailer.
> 
> What does your yellow sticker say the empty weight is??
> 
> That said I will say it is NOT hard on a trailer the size of the 277 or 295 to add 1500-2000lbs of stuff by the time your done. propane =60lbs, batteries, 125lbs, it all adds up in a hurry.


I was not aware of the yellow sticker until your mention of it. So I searched and finally found it. It says 7540. Also, it states not to exceed 1000 lbs of cargo. Now, you are saying that figure does not include the propane (60) and batteries (125). That leaves me with 850 lbs for personal items, WATER, holding tanks etc... Wow!! That gives me 500 lbs at most for our clothes food etc. That is ridiculous for trailer this size!! Fortunately, it is only my wife and I. There is no way a family of four could use this trailer and stay within the GVWR of 8600.

Thanks for your comments, KTMRacer.
[/quote]

We have a 2012 Outback 277RL, and while I don't have a picture of the yellow sticker handy, and the trailer is in storage, I am pretty sure that our sticker weight is similar to yours - around 7500 lbs. I was lead to believe that is the actual manufactured weight of the trailer including propane tanks, battery, and other factory installed options. Obviously, it does not include water, wastewater, or other options like extra batteries, slide out awnings, power winches, etc. We have never weighed our trailer, but I bet we are pretty close to the 8600. I have always taken solace in the fact (as someone already pointed out) that Keystone was not stingy with the 4400 lb axles and load range D tires. I also think the frame is pretty beefy.

I am sure we would be well over weight with full tanks, but I think that is true for most of the trailers currently on the market. Like the OP, it is just the wife and I and the dogs, and we travel to warm weather places, so we really don't load up with too much stuff, and I think we are OK, but it is surprisingly low for the big ass trailer it is ......


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## hautevue (Mar 8, 2009)

We try to keep the weight down:

1. When we got home from the pick up at Holman's, we dumped all three tanks, emptied the reefer and brought the left over beer back inside [yes, Virginia, there was a bottle or two left over!  ] and then went to commercial truck scales. We got really accurate weights for everything: trailer, tow vehicle, tongue weight and entire rig hooked up, and also got the weights on each set of wheels (two TV, two on the TT). Cheap $40 to reassure us of the amount of cargo we can put in it and how the weights are distributed.

2. we tow minimal water (maybe 10 gallons) unless planing to dry camp. Water is 8# per gallon so we travel with 80 pounds, and if needed, add more at the campsite when we dump the black and gray tanks. If you fill up that freshwater tank that holds 30 gallons, you've added 240 pounds to your trailer.

3. We have two 12v batts, and they add over 100# to the towing load (and lots to the tongue weight since the batts are so far forward).

4. We assume the propane tanks are full or nearly so. That will overestimate the TT weight, which is a safety factor.

We've found that we can add about 1000# of our "stuff" to the "empty" weight from the scales. With just the two of us and the dog, we have been successful in staying under the max weights.


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## KTMRacer (Jun 28, 2010)

Bill & Kate said:


> my yellow sticker on my 295RE was within 50lbs of what I measured when I left the lot with an empty trailer andd went to the scales. and it was within 25lbs of of what keystone said was empty weight on the website. The yellow sticker is the actual weight of the trailer as it rolled off the assembly line ready to deliver to you, which is without any propane in the tanks or battery(s) on the tongue, but with ALL the options on the trailer.
> 
> What does your yellow sticker say the empty weight is??
> 
> That said I will say it is NOT hard on a trailer the size of the 277 or 295 to add 1500-2000lbs of stuff by the time your done. propane =60lbs, batteries, 125lbs, it all adds up in a hurry.


I was not aware of the yellow sticker until your mention of it. So I searched and finally found it. It says 7540. Also, it states not to exceed 1000 lbs of cargo. Now, you are saying that figure does not include the propane (60) and batteries (125). That leaves me with 850 lbs for personal items, WATER, holding tanks etc... Wow!! That gives me 500 lbs at most for our clothes food etc. That is ridiculous for trailer this size!! Fortunately, it is only my wife and I. There is no way a family of four could use this trailer and stay within the GVWR of 8600.

Thanks for your comments, KTMRacer.
[/quote]

We have a 2012 Outback 277RL, and while I don't have a picture of the yellow sticker handy, and the trailer is in storage, I am pretty sure that our sticker weight is similar to yours - around 7500 lbs. I was lead to believe that is the actual manufactured weight of the trailer including propane tanks, battery, and other factory installed options. Obviously, it does not include water, wastewater, or other options like extra batteries, slide out awnings, power winches, etc. We have never weighed our trailer, but I bet we are pretty close to the 8600. I have always taken solace in the fact (as someone already pointed out) that Keystone was not stingy with the 4400 lb axles and load range D tires. I also think the frame is pretty beefy.

I am sure we would be well over weight with full tanks, but I think that is true for most of the trailers currently on the market. Like the OP, it is just the wife and I and the dogs, and we travel to warm weather places, so we really don't load up with too much stuff, and I think we are OK, but it is surprisingly low for the big ass trailer it is ......
[/quote]

at least outbacks are shipped without any batteries, so the weight of batteries is not part of the empty weight. And propane tanks are empty so the unloaded yellow sticker weight is without propane. HOWEVER, the regulations require that the weight of full propane tanks be considered part of the empty trailer weight, so at least on our trailer what keystone does is calculate the CCC (combined cargo capacity) as GVWR-unloaded vehicle weight- propane weight. So, the CCC weight already assumes full propane.

It's intersting to watch the GVWR on some outback trailers. Our 295RE has a GWVR of 8600lbs, the 298RE, 9,000lbs. unloaded weight on the 298RE was 400lbs more than the 295RE and "magically" the CCC comes out the same with what appears to be the same chassis suspension etc. 298 is 1 ft longer than the 295. Hum....

Also interesting to see how many Outbacks have a GVWR at or under 9,000lbs. I wonder how much the GVWR is due to actual trailer capacity vs. being able to advertize the trailer as "1/2 ton towable" since it seems like many 1/2 tons have a 9,000lb trailer limit.

So how much is the GVWR spec based on what the design limits really are vs. what makes good advertizing for what it can be towed with????

Or to be able to say "ultralight" and 9,000lb trailer in the same sentence!! Kinda an oxymoron to me..


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## KTMRacer (Jun 28, 2010)

TwoElkhounds said:


> The axles are rated to 4400 lbs each and the tires are 2540 lbs each.
> 8800 lbs max for axles
> 10160 lbs max for tires
> 
> ...


All true, but there may be a limitation on the frame that is creating the 8600lb restiction.

DAN
[/quote]

WD hitch will move about 400lbs from the truck rear axle to the trailer rear axles, so drop the total by about 400lbs at least, say 9700. It won't change tongue weight but a WD hitch will result in an increase Trailer rear axle load. So figure that by 9700GVWR you'll be really pushing the axle limit. And often TT axle loads aren't divided equally, one could be 4200, the other 4600 for a combined 8800. Only way to know is to really measure each axle independently.


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## clarkely (Sep 15, 2008)

My opinions/findings on the subject....

your combined axle rating is usually over your GVWR as these are available in pre-set increments from the axle manufacturers .....

Limiting factors are often the tires, wheels and springs........ Many have seen or encountered themselves...... the spring issues......

Trailer frame - often the same size frames on on trailers with 7500 and 10k gvwr

A lot of the drive for the lower GVWR is to make a big trailer sellable as towable by smaller vehicles.....

my 2004 Keystone springdale had a dry ship weight of 6500 something and a GVWR of 9700 - looked to the website quick and it only showed 2006 units - but with a 3500lb carrying cappacity......

That was something i looked at on my trailer - i believe my axles were 5200 or 5400 lb axles ........wheels were only rated for 65psi and thus a d range tire .....and leaf springs were only rated for 10k - upgrading springs wheels and tires has now made my axle the limiting factor.....

At the end of the day the manufacturers are making things to hit a price point as well as fall with in weight categories for their market..... all of these things can be limiting to getting "what you really want"

Thus get close and MODIFY







plus its fun to do









If you haven't scaled your set up - it is a must!! It is the best way to see where your weights are on the tt and tv

Feed mill scale or cat scale where you can spend an hour is perfect....... when i did mine i did it tv and tt connected un connected every scenario possible..... weighing individual axles as well.......... trying different settings on WD bars - so you can see what is actually being transferred .... this helps greatly in fine tuning a set up.....


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## Already Gone (Feb 25, 2013)

KTMRacer said:


> my yellow sticker on my 295RE was within 50lbs of what I measured when I left the lot with an empty trailer andd went to the scales. and it was within 25lbs of of what keystone said was empty weight on the website. The yellow sticker is the actual weight of the trailer as it rolled off the assembly line ready to deliver to you, which is without any propane in the tanks or battery(s) on the tongue, but with ALL the options on the trailer.
> 
> What does your yellow sticker say the empty weight is??
> 
> That said I will say it is NOT hard on a trailer the size of the 277 or 295 to add 1500-2000lbs of stuff by the time your done. propane =60lbs, batteries, 125lbs, it all adds up in a hurry.


I was not aware of the yellow sticker until your mention of it. So I searched and finally found it. It says 7540. Also, it states not to exceed 1000 lbs of cargo. Now, you are saying that figure does not include the propane (60) and batteries (125). That leaves me with 850 lbs for personal items, WATER, holding tanks etc... Wow!! That gives me 500 lbs at most for our clothes food etc. That is ridiculous for trailer this size!! Fortunately, it is only my wife and I. There is no way a family of four could use this trailer and stay within the GVWR of 8600.

Thanks for your comments, KTMRacer.
[/quote]

We have a 2012 Outback 277RL, and while I don't have a picture of the yellow sticker handy, and the trailer is in storage, I am pretty sure that our sticker weight is similar to yours - around 7500 lbs. I was lead to believe that is the actual manufactured weight of the trailer including propane tanks, battery, and other factory installed options. Obviously, it does not include water, wastewater, or other options like extra batteries, slide out awnings, power winches, etc. We have never weighed our trailer, but I bet we are pretty close to the 8600. I have always taken solace in the fact (as someone already pointed out) that Keystone was not stingy with the 4400 lb axles and load range D tires. I also think the frame is pretty beefy.

I am sure we would be well over weight with full tanks, but I think that is true for most of the trailers currently on the market. Like the OP, it is just the wife and I and the dogs, and we travel to warm weather places, so we really don't load up with too much stuff, and I think we are OK, but it is surprisingly low for the big ass trailer it is ......
[/quote]

at least outbacks are shipped without any batteries, so the weight of batteries is not part of the empty weight. And propane tanks are empty so the unloaded yellow sticker weight is without propane. HOWEVER, the regulations require that the weight of full propane tanks be considered part of the empty trailer weight, so at least on our trailer what keystone does is calculate the CCC (combined cargo capacity) as GVWR-unloaded vehicle weight- propane weight. So, the CCC weight already assumes full propane.

It's intersting to watch the GVWR on some outback trailers. Our 295RE has a GWVR of 8600lbs, the 298RE, 9,000lbs. unloaded weight on the 298RE was 400lbs more than the 295RE and "magically" the CCC comes out the same with what appears to be the same chassis suspension etc. 298 is 1 ft longer than the 295. Hum....

Also interesting to see how many Outbacks have a GVWR at or under 9,000lbs. I wonder how much the GVWR is due to actual trailer capacity vs. being able to advertize the trailer as "1/2 ton towable" since it seems like many 1/2 tons have a 9,000lb trailer limit.

So how much is the GVWR spec based on what the design limits really are vs. what makes good advertizing for what it can be towed with????

Or to be able to say "ultralight" and 9,000lb trailer in the same sentence!! Kinda an oxymoron to me..
[/quote]

In my opinion you have stated what I think is going on here. To not include essential items such as at least one battery, full propane etc only serves to obscure the true cargo capacity of the unit. I also think the GVWR is being under stated. The intended end result is to give the illusion of "Ultralight".

Also, my shipping weight sticker and my DOT GVWR stickers conflict on the amount of cargo I can carry, albeit by only 100 lbs. The shipping weight sticker states "Do not exceed 1000 pounds of cargo including 350 pounds of water" (1000 - 350 = 650). DOT sticker says "Don't exceed 750 pounds of cargo" excluding water (750 + 350 = 1100). Basically one sticker says I can carry 1000 lbs and the other 1100 lbs inclusive of water. Maybe I'm nit picking here but that represents a 10% difference in total cargo weight. An important figure such as this should be stated in clear, concise, non-conflicting manner.

It is now quite clear... I need to do a full weighing of all components fully loaded, as I would normally use the unit, to see where I stand. It doesn't matter what the "shipping weight" is, just what the loaded weight is and if I am under the GVWR figure.


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## clarkely (Sep 15, 2008)

every brand of anything that has restrictions has been doing this for my 45 years of life.......

Vehicles that need to be under a certain weight class are stamped as such ........ whether that be 25,999 lbs on my box trucks - they are the same box truck that can have an over 26k sticker for hauling heavier......

same with 3/4 ton trucks and the classes in some states......

I dont think this is unique to outbacks or keystone.....

I know i looked closely at what ratings all my vehicles and trailers have....... axle, wheel, spring, tire ..... You have to

SUcks that you can only haul 1000 lbs...but look into it and do all your scale weighing....... there might be hope there for more........


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## KTMRacer (Jun 28, 2010)

while the present system of labeling certainly has shortcomings, it is FAR FAR better than a few years ago before the latest standards came into play. At least now we KNOW what the empty weight is for any given trailer when it is on the lot, AND the axle/tire combo has to be capable of carrying the rated GVWR less unloaded empty tongue weight. And all mfg are playing by the same rulebook on how empty weight is determined, it is spelled out pretty specifically as is how CCC is to be calculated. And legally, any dealer that adds more than xx lbs (100 IIRC) must attach an updated "yellow" sticker with updated weights based on the additions.

However, it seems like in our area, either dealers aren't always following this last rule, or they think/can get around it by not installing anything until it is part of the purchase agreement, so maybe that is an issue.

You can at least now do apples to apples comparison between trailers and brands.

A few years ago it was pretty common to see trailers with Two 4400lb axles, 225/75-15 LRD tires on a trailer with a GVWR of 10,800 lbs. IMHO there is NO way possible to have that high a GVWR and not overload the axle. It would require 2500lbs+ on the hitch to keep from going over the 8800lbs with a WD hitch hooked up. And I have yet to see a truck with that high of a hitch rating, or a hitch rated for that capacity.

BTW, there are TWO trailers in our community lot with the above ratings!!


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