# Holman Rv



## bradnbecca (Feb 12, 2007)

I guess that Holman is the only dealer that is exempt from Keystone's policy prohibiting advertising discounted prices. They are dumping new OB's on Ebay at fire-sale prices. I suppose that is great if you are looking to buy a new one and don't mind buying from a far-away dealer, but they are really serving to depress the prices on used OB's. I suppose the rules only apply to some people . . . . .


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Holman's prices are usually very close to Lakeshore's. I realize deep discounting reduces residual values, but it also made it possible for me to buy an OB in the first place.









I am suprised they are advertising the prices. You used to have to e-mail them.









edited... I just checked e-bay and Holman, Lakeshore, and one more who's name I forget all have buy it now prices on the OB's. I'll leave it up to Keystone on whether this is allowed or not.


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

I've always appreciated placed like Lakeshore, Holman, OrderDirectRV, Flagg RV, RVDirect, RVCorner and Midway... they help us all negotiate with local dealers better to get a fair price. I've never actually purchsed from one of them but every time I've purchased I get as many prices as I can before I finally sit down with my local dealers. They also have made it easy for me to know when I should just walk away. I have more problem with Keystone and any other manufacturer that tried to keep inflated prices as the norm. Keystone may get their knickers in a wad over what Lakeshore and Holman do on ebay but they also like that those dealer move their product too. Its a fine like Keystone walks keeping the over priced dealers happy and the mass movers from jumping ship.


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## wolfwood (Sep 19, 2005)

> Keystone may get their knickers in a wad over what Lakeshore and Holman do on ebay but they also like that those dealer move their product too. Its a fine like Keystone walks keeping the over priced dealers happy and the mass movers from jumping ship.


I agree - it is a fine line but, I believe that's where my agreeing ends. The "internet dealers" are probably walking some kind of line, too. There is no law against marketing on the internet or publicly posting one's price lists. There may, however, be something written into Keystone's contracts with its dealers about how and where they market the product, how they interact with and/or make reference to other dealers, how they compete for our business, etc. But then - that's _their _contract....and we can't, shouldn't, don't need to know that.

I believe that the removal of public price lists, as well as some other changes we've seen over time, is/are the result of Keystone's efforts to protect the territory and reputation of their dealers. Of course Keystone wants more consumers to buy their product...they're a for-profit business...but they also need to maintain their broadly dispersed dealer network, too. Definately a fine line. But that's business for you.


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## Highlander96 (Mar 1, 2005)

Competition is good for prices.......


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## bradnbecca (Feb 12, 2007)

Highlander96 said:


> Competition is good for prices.......


 I don't have a problem with that. what bothers me is that Keystone is supposed to have a policy about this that keeps them from pimping out trailers on Ebay. By doing that, they reduce the value of all of our Outbacks. It is damned hard to sell a used one at a reasonable price when this is going on. If everyone operated under the same rules, then fine, because the price for a new one from 99% of the dealers who don't whore them out would come down. In this case, the people who play by the rules suffer.


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## wolfwood (Sep 19, 2005)

I agree. FAIR competition is good. So are sound business parameters. Such as respect for the consumer, the product, the "other guy" and for the [sometimes unwritten] rules of good faith and fair dealing. To bad we don't see more of these throughout the world of business.


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone complain about there being too good of a deal on a camper


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Let's not be too hard on these discount guys!

I drove 4 hours to Holman last winter to pick up a trailer I had only seen pictures of. I was very nervous about what I would find, but the deal was worth the time commitment. I went through the PDI with my Dad (who is experienced with TT's) as an extra set of eyes. Everything was as promised, and the only complaint I would have is the tech eyeballing the hitch setup (he was close I guess







). We signed papers, and dragged it home. I didn't even get to test the plumbing until spring (they told me it was all ok, but it was winterized at the time). In summary, I can't be happier with them as a dealer. When I rearranged the skirting on the trailer, they ordered and shipped a new piece out to me without any hassle or trying to get me to let them install it. I would rate them as much easier to deal with and more straighforward than some more local dealers I have talked to. As an added bonus, I only had to say no to the extended warranty 2 or 3 times!

One final thought here is that it is no different than a Car dealer advertising a car sale with "prices at dealer invoice." In both cases, the Manufacturer makes money, the dealer makes money (smaller %, but higher # of sales), and the consumer saves money. The only downside is a loss of residual value, but trailers are not an investment, they are a money pit!!!







Plus, this way, maybe the next one will be cheaper.


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## campmg (Dec 24, 2005)

California Jim said:


> This is the first time I've ever heard anyone complain about there being too good of a deal on a camper


Good point Jim.

If people use the "discount / internet " dealers to negotiate better prices from their local dealers, they should understand having trouble reselling them against those same internet prices.

If it's like buying a car, do you really ever get the deal advertised in the paper?


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## bradnbecca (Feb 12, 2007)

Nathan said:


> One final thought here is that it is no different than a Car dealer advertising a car sale with "prices at dealer invoice." In both cases, the Manufacturer makes money, the dealer makes money (smaller %, but higher # of sales), and the consumer saves money. The only downside is a loss of residual value, but trailers are not an investment, they are a money pit!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


IT IS different if the manufacturer says that the car dealers cannot advertise sale prices and everyone adheres to that policy except for one dealer, who is, essentially, cheating.

If EVERYONE is allowed to advertised discounted prices, then most sales will be at a lower price, and the resulting loss of value won't be as detrimental.

I guess I am wrong to want for my investment to hold a litlle value by dealers following the rules- 
there is a big difference between a dealer offering discounts and one dumping inventory on ebay, particularly when they agreed not to do so when they signed up with Keystone.

No one says that they can't sell them for whatever they want- they ARE prohibited from advertising cut rate prices though. I would think that anyone who owns an OB would want it to hold as much value as possible- what a silly concept . . . . .


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

bradnbecca said:


> No one says that they can't sell them for whatever they want- they ARE prohibited from advertising cut rate prices though. I would think that anyone who owns an OB would want it to hold as much value as possible- what a silly concept . . . . .


Ok, I haven't read the contracts, nor am I a lawyer for Keystone. I'm also not in charge of enforcing the contracts if that is how they are written. Instead I'm a lowley consumer who is going to take advantage of the opprotunity.









I'm sorry to hear you are upset by this practice. I'm sure Keystone is aware of it however and will take any action they deem appropriate.


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

I think the only ones who have a problem with it are those of us who paid way too much in the first place...

Not sure how I know this
















But hey! We have the piece of mind knowing that our local dealer will take us in for repairs without a hassle


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## Mgonzo2u (Aug 3, 2004)

Gotta love competition in this capitalist country.

Only the consumer benefits when stuff like this happens.

I don't really care about the corporations bylaws with their dealers. I just care about MY bottom line.


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

bradnbecca - I did want to say that I hope you don't take any comments as an attack on you, they are not meant that way. I think we've all been in the situation you are in. Before I learned about the RV pricing world I didn't know what a good price vs. a discount price really was - the power of the internet through groups like this can help buyers out, but it can also catch some of us when we may have bought at a higher price and then see it advertised lower. One key thing to keep in mind when looking at discount prices is you must add shipping to that cost. I know when I have compared the prices they look great, but once I add shipping in that price isn't always as cherry as it once looked, but usually still cheaper then many dealers. Same goes when you are selling, sure a new buyer can buy the one on eBay for what you have, but then they need to pay for shipping too. Hang in there, you will find the right buyer. Having bought and sold 5 RVs now I can say it all takes time and the right person.


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## campmg (Dec 24, 2005)

Y-Guy said:


> Hang in there, you will find the right buyer. Having bought and sold 5 RVs now I can say it all takes time and the right person.


If I remember correctly, didn't a fine Outbackers member from Oregon buy your Outback? It just shows that people can come together for a fair agreed upon price in an open market. Take care of your stuff and someone will buy it at the right time for the right price.


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

campmg said:


> If I remember correctly, didn't a fine Outbackers member from Oregon buy your Outback?


You are 100% correct. In fact I sold my PopUp from a listing on PopUpTimes.com and sold my Hybrid from a listing on Hybrid Explorer and sold my Outback from this site. The only one I've traded in was the Raptor and that was because the dealer had a buyer waiting for one so it was a win-win for both of us.

Speaking of... if you haven't yet tried it RV.net now has a free classified area... more exposure is always a good thing when selling an Outback!


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## bradnbecca (Feb 12, 2007)

Y-Guy said:


> bradnbecca - I did want to say that I hope you don't take any comments as an attack on you, they are not meant that way. I think we've all been in the situation you are in. Before I learned about the RV pricing world I didn't know what a good price vs. a discount price really was - the power of the internet through groups like this can help buyers out, but it can also catch some of us when we may have bought at a higher price and then see it advertised lower. One key thing to keep in mind when looking at discount prices is you must add shipping to that cost. I know when I have compared the prices they look great, but once I add shipping in that price isn't always as cherry as it once looked, but usually still cheaper then many dealers. Same goes when you are selling, sure a new buyer can buy the one on eBay for what you have, but then they need to pay for shipping too. Hang in there, you will find the right buyer. Having bought and sold 5 RVs now I can say it all takes time and the right person.


I didn't take it that way. This will be the 4rth RV I have sold, and I usually manage to do ok. Actually, I try not to buy new to avoid this particular situation, but DW saw the OB while I was actually looking at some other options, and the rest is, as they say, history. We bought locally to have a service connection, which turned out to be a mistake in and of itself, but live and learn.

I think that the reason this burns me so much is because, until the week I decided to sell mine, no one was advertising lowball prices on Keystones of any type. Then when I get ready to sell, they decide to violate their dealer agreement with Keystone and dump a bunch of OB's on the 'bay. My dad used to tell me that some people had the luck of the Irish, but I had the luck of the Iranians . . . . . maybe he was right.

I do have to say , though, that one of the things that originally attracted us to Keystone products was the fact that they seemed to protect their products' values through their dealer advertising practices- I guess that doesn't apply anymore.

The only salvation is that we got a good enough deal on the Everest to offset some of the buttkicking we will take on the OB . . . . .


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## MJRey (Jan 21, 2005)

I guess I've always assumed that you should pay no more than 75% of the MSRP for a trailer since they typically have at least a 30% markup. Then I figure that the "value" drops at least 20% from the price you paid, not the MSRP, the second you drive it off of the lot. Using that logic a 1 year old trailer is probably only worth about 60% of the MSRP and then each year they drop even more until they start to level off after 4 or 5 years. If you check the sale/value prices on various sites this formula seems reasonably accurate. As long as you don't pay close to the MSRP you'll be okay. If you pay near the MSRP the value hit that you're going to take in the first couple of years is going to be severe. I would like my trailer to be worth more than it is but the reality is it's not. Fortunately for us we love the trailer and have no plans to sell it for a very long time.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

bradnbecca , hope you didn't buy an IPhone in July either. There are some unhappy Apple heads out there over that little marketing thing mister Jobs did a few weeks ago.

Now to twist this in the direction that is most likely closer to the truth. You think that these dealers may be "Dumping" as you say because Keystone has just came out with a cut rate Outback line that will undermine sales of higher priced inventory? I doubt you have seen the contact the dealers have to agree to so that they can be Keystone resellers but if they want to keep doing it you think they would really violate those rules for a quick buck then lose their source for trailers when Keystone cut them off?? You do know that dealers have to pay capital inventory taxes on unsold units on their lot at the end of the year, maybe they are just trying to avoid a little on that.

Good luck selling your trailer.


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## huntr70 (Jul 8, 2005)

Those same dealers have been doing it on Ebay since befoe we bought ours in July of '05........its nothing new.

Maybe there are more models on there at a time now, but they were all there. They even have different usernames depending on which salesperson is listing.

In our recent purchase, I showed the dealer we bought from the pricing on Ebay, and he came reasonably close to it. It just goes to show that all dealers have that ability, its just wether they choose to sell at that price.

Those dealers are not driving prices down, its that consumers have been consistently overpaying.....and then are upside down on the loan. It is the nature of the beast.

Steve


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## bradnbecca (Feb 12, 2007)

CamperAndy said:


> bradnbecca , hope you didn't buy an IPhone in July either. There are some unhappy Apple heads out there over that little marketing thing mister Jobs did a few weeks ago.
> 
> Now to twist this in the direction that is most likely closer to the truth. You think that these dealers may be "Dumping" as you say because Keystone has just came out with a cut rate Outback line that will undermine sales of higher priced inventory? I doubt you have seen the contact the dealers have to agree to so that they can be Keystone resellers but if they want to keep doing it you think they would really violate those rules for a quick buck then lose their source for trailers when Keystone cut them off?? You do know that dealers have to pay capital inventory taxes on unsold units on their lot at the end of the year, maybe they are just trying to avoid a little on that.
> 
> Good luck selling your trailer.


You are correct- I have not seen the dealer agreement. But I have been told by more than one keystone dealer (not just OB's, but other Keystone brands, too) that the factory specifically prohibits them from advertising any price other than MSRP. There is certainly no specification as to what the final negotiated price can be. Most, if not all, of the other dealers comply with this, including Lakeshore, who, we will all agree, sells at very good prices.

The only point I was trying to make with this is that it seems that this dealer is the only one is playing this game. There have been many dealers, including Lakeshore who have sold on Ebay, but none of them postetd a lowball "buy it now" price, because to a man, they have said that it violates Keystone policy. Every other ad I have seen from a Keystone dealer on a new Keystone product lists MSRP with the proviso that you need to contact the dealer to get a selling price.

By doing it this way, they are putting a low water mark on Ebay that makes it hard for the rest of us to get any money out of our OB's, and reducing their values.

Wow, this is a tough crowd . . . . .


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## GoVols (Oct 7, 2005)

I for one appreciate the low advertised prices;







I bought from one of those dealers, driving over 4 hours to pick up my trailer. My local dealer lost out on a sale and I kept over $2500 in my pocket by driving a little bit. Competition is a good thing, and I didn't buy my Outback because of resale value; I bought it because I thought it to be a good value for the money. Several times now I have quietly smiled when reading "For Sale" posts for used campers whose asking prices are higher than I paid for mine new!









I have noticed a difference between Keystone and another brand of RV, made in Canada. The Canadian manufacturer charges a flat 'national' delivery cost so as not to disadvantage far-away dealers. It is evident that Keystone does not follow this practice since the Indiana/Michigan dealers can offer much better pricing than dealers in places like California and Florida.


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

skippershe said:


> I think the only ones who have a problem with it are those of us who paid way too much in the first place...
> 
> Not sure how I know this


I think that's the painfully honest reality.

I'd also like to point out this is nothing new. I got my trailer for about 70% of MSRP at a local dealer in Fall 2005 precisely because of the ebay ads, particularly those of Lakeshore. I had noticed that the ads seemed to have disappeared at some point.


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## Diver Bill (Apr 30, 2007)

Holman does not curently have anything listed on Ebay
Lakeshore has 3 Outbacks at low buy it now prices listed
Other Keystone dealers have listed low buy it now prices on thier units (not Outback models)
All the listings I saw were for the 07 models, maybe the the ban on low pricing only applies to the current model year


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## bradnbecca (Feb 12, 2007)

Diver Bill said:


> All the listings I saw were for the 07 models, maybe the the ban on low pricing only applies to the current model year


perhaps that is true- that may be their loophole . . . .

fortunately, I am in a position where I don't HAVE to sell the OB now. I would prefer not to have to maintain and store two trailers, but I am not going to get gutted, either.

I suspect that some of you who are so thrilled at the values of our trailers being depressed will probably think differently if you have to sell, but to each his/her own.

BTW, we paid about 65% of MSRP when we bought the trailer. I don't know if that was too much or not. Holman is selling trailer for below NADA TRADE IN value. That is what hurts.


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## Highlander96 (Mar 1, 2005)

bradnbecca said:


> All the listings I saw were for the 07 models, maybe the the ban on low pricing only applies to the current model year


perhaps that is true- that may be their loophole . . . .

fortunately, I am in a position where I don't HAVE to sell the OB now. I would prefer not to have to maintain and store two trailers, but I am not going to get gutted, either.

I suspect that some of you who are so thrilled at the values of our trailers being depressed will probably think differently if you have to sell, but to each his/her own.

BTW, we paid about 65% of MSRP when we bought the trailer. I don't know if that was too much or not. Holman is selling trailer for below NADA TRADE IN value. That is what hurts.
[/quote]

I think the NADA trade in you are referring to is blue book. I may be wrong. However, no dealer uses that book unless you are paying full retail. When I traded my 21RS we got wholesale trade. We also matched Lakeshore's Current price at the time.

RV's are no different than New Cars. You take a huge depreciation hit as soon as you pull it off of the lot.

I think what really kills us is depreciation.

I really don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. The market is flooded with units all over, not just Keystone products.

Tim


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

GoVols said:


> I have noticed a difference between Keystone and another brand of RV, made in Canada. The Canadian manufacturer charges a flat 'national' delivery cost so as not to disadvantage far-away dealers.


Wow that smells like 100% pure industrial strength socialism now doesn't it?


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Y-Guy said:


> Wow that smells like 100% pure industrial strength socialism now doesn't it?


Hey, Doug said no politics!!!


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## bradnbecca (Feb 12, 2007)

Y-Guy said:


> I have noticed a difference between Keystone and another brand of RV, made in Canada. The Canadian manufacturer charges a flat 'national' delivery cost so as not to disadvantage far-away dealers.


Wow that smells like 100% pure industrial strength socialism now doesn't it?








[/quote]

Actually, that is also what all the auto manufacturers do. If you buy a new car at a dealer across the street from the factory, the destination charge is the same as if it were sent 3000 miles. The old days of driving up to the factory to get a better deal are over with. I am surprised that RV manufacturers don't do the same.

BTW, the NADA guides are not the same thing as the blue book. In this part of the country almost all of the dealers and lenders use NADA as their "book" to determine values. YMMV


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## Highlander96 (Mar 1, 2005)

bradnbecca said:


> I have noticed a difference between Keystone and another brand of RV, made in Canada. The Canadian manufacturer charges a flat 'national' delivery cost so as not to disadvantage far-away dealers.


Wow that smells like 100% pure industrial strength socialism now doesn't it?








[/quote]

Actually, that is also what all the auto manufacturers do. If you buy a new car at a dealer across the street from the factory, the destination charge is the same as if it were sent 3000 miles. The old days of driving up to the factory to get a better deal are over with. I am surprised that RV manufacturers don't do the same.

BTW, the NADA guides are not the same thing as the blue book. In this part of the country almost all of the dealers and lenders use NADA as their "book" to determine values. YMMV
[/quote]

My last words on this exhausted topic.........

I know, with certainty, that there are two different versions of the NADA Guides that you refer to.

Good Luck selling your unit.

Tim


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## huntr70 (Jul 8, 2005)

Highlander96 said:


> I have noticed a difference between Keystone and another brand of RV, made in Canada. The Canadian manufacturer charges a flat 'national' delivery cost so as not to disadvantage far-away dealers.


Wow that smells like 100% pure industrial strength socialism now doesn't it?








[/quote]

Actually, that is also what all the auto manufacturers do. If you buy a new car at a dealer across the street from the factory, the destination charge is the same as if it were sent 3000 miles. The old days of driving up to the factory to get a better deal are over with. I am surprised that RV manufacturers don't do the same.

BTW, the NADA guides are not the same thing as the blue book. In this part of the country almost all of the dealers and lenders use NADA as their "book" to determine values. YMMV
[/quote]

My last words on this exhausted topic.........

I know, with certainty, that there are two different versions of the NADA Guides that you refer to.

Good Luck selling your unit.

Tim
[/quote]
I think I had posted this before on here somewhere........NADA does NOT give a trade in value. It gives a Low Retail and a High Retail.....keyword being retail. My new 5er was bought for less than the Used value also.

If you Google RV wholesale pricing, you will find that there is no "available to the public" WHOLESALE pricing guide. That is where you need to look for trade in value.

Value in NADA, as it stands, is for on the Dealer's lot, warranty included, reconditioned pricing.

Steve


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## dougdogs (Jul 31, 2004)

California Jim said:


> This is the first time I've ever heard anyone complain about there being too good of a deal on a camper


sounds to me like some one found out they paid way too much for their trailer


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

Let's also remember those guides are supposed to be just a reflection of prevailing prices.

If the comps say my house is worth $300,000 but the best offer I ever get when trying to sell it is $100,000.... guess how much my house is worth.


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## bradnbecca (Feb 12, 2007)

dougdogs said:


> This is the first time I've ever heard anyone complain about there being too good of a deal on a camper


sounds to me like some one found out they paid way too much for their trailer
[/quote]

yeah, either that or he acutally expects people to do what they say and play by the rules- what a strange concept . . . . . .


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Once the 07's are cleared off the lots prices should go back up. Also, spring is more expensive around here with everyone getting that camping bug!


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