# Keystone Outback, Interesting Tidbit Of Info



## rnameless (Jun 30, 2005)

As I was putting $ down on the family's new 27RSDS last week, the saleman and sales mgr from my dealer dropped this on me about the Outback line. Their Outback rep informed them that Outback sales jumped over 400% from 03' to 04' and the trend was continuing for 05'. Could this forum have anything to do with it? Makes you wonder. someone from Keystone is gettin' rich







. wish it was me.


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## 1stTimeAround (Sep 22, 2004)

I know when I went to my dealer that the Outback was the first thing they showed me. At the time the guy showed me a 26RS and said that it was the hottest thing they had and that they couldn't get them fast enough or keep them on the lot long enough to show it more than 2-3 times.

If that is true, then it's time they cranked up the warranty service and customer service that others have had problems with. Give a little back to the customers so they stay your customers!

jason


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## Castle Rock Outbackers (Jan 18, 2004)

Well, this forum certainly has helped more than a few people decide to purchase an Outback over other brands they were considering, no doubt there. The jump in sales is likely more due to reasons that enticed all of us to buy Outbacks, namly walking into the unit and saying, "Wow...now I like this!"

Randy


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## camping479 (Aug 27, 2003)

I agree with Jason. I had good warranty service when I needed it but have read about a few having a bit of trouble.

The "WOW" factor is definitely there in the Outbacks along with good useability and features. I'm glad they are selling so many, it's a great trailer and a great way to travel.

Before you read what's next, please keep in mind we are thrilled with our Outback and it's overall design. It has served us well.

On soap box









My biggest beef is these trailers (as well as just about every other brand) should have a bit better engineering and thought for the long term. Maybe it's just me being picky, I don't know. We've had our Outback for 2 1/2 years and plan on keeping it for at least five years or more. Things like rusting exterior screws, having to add gutters over the exterior storage doors to stop/prevent leaks and black and grey tank plumbing that leaves a bit to be desired (at least on our trailer) annoy me. I'm very handy and can solve/prevent most if not all the problems but for those that can't, I could see owning a trailer being frustrating. Maybe that's why people trade them so often for newer/ bigger ones, they don't want to deal with the problems that start to show up.

Like I said above, it's not just Outbacks, I don't want to seem like I'm criticizing just my trailer.

I have no problem performing basic maintenance, but having to correct poor engineering/forethought annoys the heck out of me.

Off soap box now










Mike


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## Dreamtimers (Mar 7, 2005)

Amen! Love the TT, but a LITTLE more thought and attention to detail could make a great TT almost perfect, (well you know what I mean)









Dreamtimers


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## Castle Rock Outbackers (Jan 18, 2004)

Agreed, Mike. We plan on keeping ours (if the 26 RS is up to the challenge) until two of three kids are in college (that means another 10 years). The roof has a 12-year warranty, and that is how long we need. The 26 RS is the right camper for us with three kids (and tow vehicle) so there will be no need to trade any earlier than that. It will only cost money that can be used elsewhere.

I see some REALLY old camper trailers on the road and think, "see, we can make it camping for a long time in our Outback." I can't imagine my Outback turning yellow all over and looking a little raggedy like many I see, so with excellent care I hope to minimize the Outback aging process.

But I can assure you, when 2015 comes along, we will be ready to purchase something like the Keystone Everest 366i. We plan on seeing the entire country before deciding where to retire.

Randy


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## rdowns (Oct 20, 2004)

I really see only one situation in the foreseeable future that would cause me to replace my Outback- if I found a smoking deal on a toyhauler. Shawn just bought me a 4 wheeler- woo-hoo! For now we plan to tandem tow and that allows me to keep my beloved Outback. Problem is all the toyhaulers I like that don't make me feel like I am giving up too much are too looong







So, think I will stick with what I have for now


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## BigBadBrain (Aug 26, 2004)

At the risk of incurring the wrath of other Outbackers...

Mike is right of course but, being in the engineering business for development of new concepts and designs (admittedly for things a tad bit more complex than a travel trailer or fiver), I sympathize with the need for lower development cost and lower manufacturing cost. Sorry for the diatribe but I've seen a lot of discussion on the forum regarding this kind of thing and feel that some of the following issues may not be obvious to all of us.

Every manufacturer goes through the basic phase of design trades throughout the lifetime of a product from development of the concept to planned and unplanned product improvements. Engineering is expensive and if the manufacturer wants to target a specific price range, only so many engineering hours can go into the product. Development cost can represent a substancial risk to any company developing a new product. Has Keystone realized complete payback for their development costs? I would think yes but wouldn't be surprised to find out they were still paying it off. Usually, a product is launched with an anticipated sales quantity at which the development is paid back and a specific return on the investment is made.

Try this - imagine going over every feature and every facet of the 23RS (pick your own) and trying to IMAGINE all the possible things that might come up with each feature. Now imagine trying to figure out HOW LIKELY an issue with that feature might be. How many hours would you need to invest to be so thorough that a purchaser would never experience a problem? Now imagine how many hours it would take to figure out all the feasible solutions that might improve the product and sorting through all of those potential solutions for one that won't cause a large overall increase in cost or weight of the camper. Now compare that process to putting out a cheaper product (cheaper in quality and in cost to the customer) and letting experience with the TT highlight those areas that are most frequently driving complaints or failures. Remember, every hour of engineering is passed along in the cost of the camper.

That said, a very successful product like the Outback line will require additional development and engineering if it is to maintain market share. Additional investment is warranted to keep the line popular and up-to-date. Some of those engineering changes have made their way into the Outbacks now being produced. Examples are the changes in the cook center, the change to better tires (I believe this was done right?), the option for the table vs. the drawer in the forward compartment, and various other changes I've noticed in the newer models that contrast with the earliest ones. Another kind of additional investment has been the Sydney lines, the new, larger TT models, slight changes in floorplans (like the shift from slide out sofa to slide out dinette).

At this point, because of its success, I think Keystone needs to go back and pay a little extra attention to the basic quality control and sacrifice some of the profit per unit to achieve a higher quality and more robust product. Upgrading some of the materials would also be in order (like miniblinds to shades of some sort perhaps).

These are the same things that will continue to breed success for the Outback line and increase sales even more in the future. Hopefully, the business development department at Keystone is aware of all this and is taking the right steps. Our job is to point out where the best improvements should be made and be assured that they do visit this site and take it seriously. Therefore, it is also our responsibility to be constructive and suggest how the issues we have might be approached. However, that said, their decisions on improvement are ultimately driven by the need to stay in business and generate some profit.

Something tells me that we are not the only ones to consider all this...

BBB


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## 1stTimeAround (Sep 22, 2004)

Next time, aim to the left of that nerve!!
















Very good points BBB! Just ribbin' ya'!

Jason


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## camping479 (Aug 27, 2003)

Good points and well stated Brian. I understand and can appreciate everything you've said.

Engineering costs a lot as well as major changes. Spending a few dollars more per unit for better materials like you mentioned would be a smart investment on Keystone's part.

Just improve the basic durability and quality of materials in the units and I'd be happy. Well...........put in better plumbing to drain the tanks too







I'll be trying to do that myself this weekend.

Mike


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## kk5fe (Mar 6, 2005)

When we were looking for a new travel trailer, we almost put a down payment on a Laredo which is also made by Keystone. We went to an RV show and talked to a Keystone rep who told us to look at the Outback line instead. He told us that the Outbacks were built better than the Laredo. I've never looked back!







We love our Outback!!


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## BigBadBrain (Aug 26, 2004)

BigBadBrain said:


> Now compare that process to putting out a cheaper product (cheaper in quality and in cost to the customer) and letting experience with the TT highlight those areas that are most frequently driving complaints or failures.
> [snapback]48963[/snapback]​


Add to this approach an EXCELLENT response to issues encountered for the first few model years and I think you have the early Keystone model for the Outback line. If this was their approach, I could understand (but still object to) the reduced enthusiasm in their warrantee and non-warrantee work over the last year.

Could it be that they cut back on their responsiveness because they feel the product is robust enough now? Could be I guess.

BBB


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## camping479 (Aug 27, 2003)

Yes, but if Keystone feels the Outbacks are robust enough but are still seeing some problems, why would they be less responsive on warranty claims? That wouldn't make sense to me.

That's the same as me telling one of my customers, even though there's a little problem with your new cabinetry, we feel it's fine and will not fix it. Doesn't build much customer good will or loyalty.

Mike


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## BigBadBrain (Aug 26, 2004)

My point exactly, the result is that folks start to wonder about customer loyalty compared with profit making on a successful product line. If Keystone knows this business as well as I think they do, maintaining good response to warranttee and even non-warrantee work should be high on their list.

It seems like there are more frequent episodes though, where they haven't been so responsive. Time for them to perk up their ears and realize that, even if they haven't changed their polices, there is a PERCEPTION that they have gotten lax on response. Perception is FACT.


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## Sidewinder (Feb 25, 2005)

Brain,

Here's a shout-out from the "AMEN" section.

My job is in the engineering development of consumer goods, so I understand EXACTLY what you are saying. Most of the general public has no idea what goes into bringing a product to market. If Keystone were to try to produce the "perfect RV", none of us would be able to afford it. Because of my experience with consumer goods, I tend to be a "value shopper" instead of a "low price shopper". I am a firm believer that you should weigh what you are paying against what you are getting. I did not find the Outback to be the cheapest model RV out there, but I did do ALOT of homework and studying to find that it was one of the best VALUES.

Besides, if Keystone could build us the "perfect RV", then what would all of us "Mod-Fanatics" do on rainy days in the middle of winter?

Sidewinder


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Keystone could save a bundle of engineering cost by reading this forum and "just do it!"


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## BigBadBrain (Aug 26, 2004)

Jim, are you kidding? This is a free and continuous 'focus group' of users. They'd be crazy not to have someone dedicated to this site. I cna't imagine them knowing about it and not using it; companies pay tons of money for this kind of thing. Sure they have to wade through a lot of chaff (I generate a lot, that's for sure) but the nuggets have to be worth the trouble. Not only are engineering solutions found here but concept development ideas as well.

We will probably never know what impact we have on our own product but be assured that we do have an impact. (Keystone can't acknowledge that they are reading - and even participating by posing as a user - without ruining the resource). Keystone is a successful business, they can't ovelook this kind of resource.

Sidewinder, it is alarming at the complexity of product development sometimes. From the outside none of it is really evident either. Finding that balance between expenditure on development and cost of product, advertising, recurring cost vs. non-recurring cost for the customer... one tough problem. And profit margins are NOT what people think they are either. Can't just take cost to manufacture and subtract from cost to customer to figure profit, too many other things are involved. Being in buisiness is HARD!


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## Ghosty (Jan 17, 2005)

The bottom line is MONEY.

OUTBACK is working at 100% capacity -- thus they do not have time to slow down (lose money) and do it right.

It s the MICROSOFT mentality - you know - just launch a new OS and let the folks call us and tell us where the bugs are.

If Outback slows down to "do it right" then they lose money -- they will not start looking at quality service until their plant starts only hitting 90% capacity!!!

Lets face it -- they are in the business to make money -- if you are selling everything you are making then customer service and quality control goes out the window...

As for this website -- its a great sales tool for the sales guy and I am sure that Outback and THOR knows about this site -- but so what -- they have to know what they are doing is poor workmanship -- I mean -- half the Outbacks leave with loose under bellys or water pipes not being tight or something obviously wrong -- but lik Outback told me -- "all they do is make it -- the dealer sales it" -- and I guess to take that one step further -- GHOSTY here is stuck fixing it...


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## Reverie (Aug 9, 2004)

I want to piggy-back on Brian's er...diatribe









If you manufacture something long enough and never change the design you can pick up efficiencies in either quality or cost or both. This assumes you make no changes. Very, very few manufactured items are exactly the same in design over a period of years. A great example of how this works was looking at Ford's Model T... When the Model T was originally sold (1908) it cost a little ove $1000. It took 728 minutes to produce each car. When the last Model T was built in 1927 the company was able to produce a new car in 93 minutes yet at a higher quality and a much lower price. A 1927 Model T cost ($300).

Simplicity of design lends itself to quality and efficiency also. When Old Henry Ford wanted a new carburator for his Model A he wanted it to be much better than the old carburator design. Originally his designer brought him a design that worked better but contained 14 tiny screws. Ford demanded simplicity so they redesigned it with 12 screws. He sent it back again and they brought him a design with 8 screws. He sent it back again. Finally they brought him a design with NO screws and two bolts. He sent it back again because he said that it had too many bolts. Finally the produced a carb with only ONE BOLT and no screws. It worked perfectly.

True stories (not legends)...

Reverie


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## NDJollyMon (Aug 22, 2003)

BigBadBrain said:


> Jim, are you kidding? This is a free and continuous 'focus group' of users. They'd be crazy not to have someone dedicated to this site. [snapback]49011[/snapback]​


Who do you think pays my salary!


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## rnameless (Jun 30, 2005)

I really wasn't expecting to start such a heated subject, but I am glad I did. Excellent discussion and information on the economics of R&D and QC in the area of manufacturing. Competition leads to improvement in all areas and based on my research over the last year, just based on floor plans, Outback is still very unique in a lot of their layouts for a completely hardsided, aluminum frame trailer. My decision to buy the 27RSDS was heavily weighted on the fact that it has 2 queen beds. The only other floorplan I found w/ this option was also an Outback (not going the hybrid route). When the competition heats up, One should see improvements in the above areas by Outback. Until then, why should Outback focus on these areas just to make the consumer happy? Not cost efficient w/ demand for these trailers being what it is.


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## Dark Green Dmax (Aug 2, 2005)

I was told, that the outbacks were developed to attract the lower end buyer to "buy up" to this line, & the high end shopper to buy down to this line. It worked this way for us. We started out shopping for a 5er that was 27-28ft. with bunks & final cost of 16,500 to 18,000. When we happened accross the Sydney addition 29fbhs we decided to "buy up" & get something Different from most of what we were looking at. Everyone who has one of these other (all the same looking) campers marvel at ours & wish they had know about the outbacks before they bought theirs. + the outback looks way more fancy than theirs too.


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