# 21rs Vs 23rs And Durango



## vvsarpsjr (Aug 17, 2008)

I was looking for some advice. I have a Dodge Durango Limited 4x4 2006, 5.7 L hemi, 3.55 gears, with tow package. Would like to get an Outback 21rs or 23rs; would prefer the 23rs for the little bigger size (we have 6 kids). Will all of us in the Durango with some gear probably weighs about 6200lbs. Would the 23rs be pushing it too close to the towing limit of 12,500 and too rough on the transmission? Can't afford a bigger truck and can't afford to burn out the Durango. We are use to small spaces and like the Outback so would it be smarter to stay with the 21rs and be a very close knit family. Thanks.


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

Welcome to Outbackers.com!!

Glad you found us.

I'm concerned/questioning the 12,500 tow rating you stated your Durango has. I only show that year having the following tow ratings. Where did you come up with 12,500lbs?

Durango 4WD 5.7L V-8 7,150 (with 3:55 Axle and 5 speed automatic)​http://coachmenrv.com/owners/guide/assets/...tow-ratings.pdf​If my information is correct, I wouldn't suggest the 23' Outback. With 6 kids and food/clothes/stuff for 8 people, I think you are quickly going to exceed that Durango's ability with anything over a 21'.​


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## vvsarpsjr (Aug 17, 2008)

Oregon_Camper said:


> Welcome to Outbackers.com!!
> 
> Glad you found us.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the confusion, the 12,500 lbs was a Dodge spec and is the total gross weight recommendation of the Durango and TT together. I had a feeling that the 21 rs would be our max. Is the 21rs still pushing it too close to the limits of the Durango?


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## Sayonara (Jul 23, 2007)

vvsarpsjr said:


> Sorry for the confusion, *the 12,500 lbs was a Dodge spec and is the total gross weight recommendation of the Durango and TT together*. I had a feeling that the 21 rs would be our max. Is the 21rs still pushing it too close to the limits of the Durango?


That sounds a lot better. Good luck with your decision. Run the numbers and travel safe !! Remember to use the Gross trailer weight for your calculations.


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

** Note...just so you know, I tend to error on the "better safe that sorry" side of things when it comes to my family and their safety. So my comments/suggestions might be a more for safety.

How old are your kids.

Where do you live? Reason I ask is things could be a bit different for someone is a flat area (say Kansas) vs someone out here in the PNW where we have some huge Mtn's to climb up...then down.

Do you have the ability to stop along a freeway trucking scale and weigh your TV? Then add in a full tank of gas...7 more people and the stuff you will bring.

I'm sorry to tell you this (here is my safety part of me) but you seem to simply have too much weight to really be safe.

Can you tow the 21...sure
Will it be slow...yep
Will you be safe....not really

Are you looking at a new Outback? Perhaps you would find an older one and then upgrade the TV to something in the 3/4 ton range.

Oh...when you read the spec's for the Outback the real world weight will come in about 700-1000 pounds more. The numbers you read are before all the dealer stuff (awning...stove...AC unit...battery...propane tanks...propane in tanks)

Again...I want you and your family to be safe.


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## kycamper (Jun 1, 2008)

vvsarpsjr said:


> Welcome to Outbackers.com!!
> 
> Glad you found us.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the confusion, the 12,500 lbs was a Dodge spec and is the total gross weight recommendation of the Durango and TT together. I had a feeling that the 21 rs would be our max. Is the 21rs still pushing it too close to the limits of the Durango?
[/quote]

I tow the 21 RS with a Durango with the Hemi and tow package. Fully loaded with gear, the 21 RS weighed 5600 pounds on the scales. We only have 2 kids and the dog, but our weight is fine. The Durango handles the 21 RS very well. When towing in the mountains of North Carolina, I did not try to go up the long mountain climbs at 55, but at what the Durango was happy with-There certainly is plenty of engine power, BUT, I did not want to push it too hard. If you look at the guidelines here for wheelbase length and weight for the 21 RS and the Durango, you will see ethey are a good fit and others here tow with the Durango without trouble. Many would say a bigger TV would be better, but in the eight seater category, your choices are limited. If you do upgrade, may as go for the 3/4 ton suburban. I cannot speak for the 23 RS, but others here will guide you and MAYBE, someone tows a 23 RS with a Durango and can offer some advice


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## kycamper (Jun 1, 2008)

kycamper said:


> Welcome to Outbackers.com!!
> 
> Glad you found us.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the confusion, the 12,500 lbs was a Dodge spec and is the total gross weight recommendation of the Durango and TT together. I had a feeling that the 21 rs would be our max. Is the 21rs still pushing it too close to the limits of the Durango?
[/quote]

I tow the 21 RS with a Durango with the Hemi and tow package. Fully loaded with gear, the 21 RS weighed 5600 pounds on the scales. We only have 2 kids and the dog, but our weight is fine. The Durango handles the 21 RS very well. When towing in the mountains of North Carolina, I did not try to go up the long mountain climbs at 55, but at what the Durango was happy with-There certainly is plenty of engine power, BUT, I did not want to push it too hard. If you look at the guidelines here for wheelbase length and weight for the 21 RS and the Durango, you will see ethey are a good fit and others here tow with the Durango without trouble. Many would say a bigger TV would be better, but in the eight seater category, your choices are limited. If you do upgrade, may as go for the 3/4 ton suburban. I cannot speak for the 23 RS, but others here will guide you and MAYBE, someone tows a 23 RS with a Durango and can offer some advice
[/quote]

I apologize-I did NOT see that you have the 3.55 rear end and NOT the 3.92-this decreases your towing capacity by 1500 pounds and then I agree, you may no longer be safe- I again apologize for the misread by me-Good luck and drive safely


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## vvsarpsjr (Aug 17, 2008)

Oregon_Camper said:


> ** Note...just so you know, I tend to error on the "better safe that sorry" side of things when it comes to my family and their safety. So my comments/suggestions might be a more for safety.
> 
> How old are your kids.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the advice, dissapointed that the 21 rs may not be ideal in our situation. Kids range from 15 yrs to 2 years. We live in central Virginia and will mainly use the trailer to go NASCAR events. Martinsville has decent hills but do not plan to do any mountain climbs. Safety definitely the biggest factor for me especially since I will be new at towing. Unfortunately will not be able to upgrade the TV anytime soon.


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

Can't help to think that you are literally squeezing yourself into this decision. The Durango for a small trailer is probably ok but just ok due to a short wheel base and it is also a narrow vehicle. Face it it isn't a full size SUV. Then you have a 3.55 rear gear which isn't great either. Then you put 6 people in not so big vehicle with out sizing the vehicle for growth of said people.

Now for the trailer. Call me a candy ass but how do you fit 6 people and all of their clothes, toys, supplies and other camping essentials in a smallish vehicle and small trailer. Easily 50% of us went bigger in trailers and then equal or greater did the truck along with it. If it were me it would take all of 10 minutes to be uncomfortable with a setup that has very limited capabilites for the present and certainly none for the future. Therefore my best advice would be to save some more loot and get a full size 3/4 ton SUV and a larger trailer and be happy. I am near certain that if your like 99% of us then I'm saving you money telling you to go bigger from the start.


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## kycamper (Jun 1, 2008)

NJMikeC said:


> Can't help to think that you are literally squeezing yourself into this decision. The Durango for a small trailer is probably ok but just ok due to a short wheel base and it is also a narrow vehicle. Face it it isn't a full size SUV. Then you have a 3.55 rear gear which isn't great either. Then you put 6 people in not so big vehicle with out sizing the vehicle for growth of said people.
> 
> Now for the trailer. Call me a candy ass but how do you fit 6 people and all of their clothes, toys, supplies and other camping essentials in a smallish vehicle and small trailer. Easily 50% of us went bigger in trailers and then equal or greater did the truck along with it. If it were me it would take all of 10 minutes to be uncomfortable with a setup that has very limited capabilites for the present and certainly none for the future. Therefore my best advice would be to save some more loot and get a full size 3/4 ton SUV and a larger trailer and be happy. I am near certain that if your like 99% of us then I'm saving you money telling you to go bigger from the start.


Agree with most of what NJMikeC said except that the 2006 Durango has a 119" wheelbase and is fine for a 21 RS, but I do not see how 8 people can be in a 21 RS-We have four and find it very liveable, but eight?


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## vvsarpsjr (Aug 17, 2008)

NJMikeC said:


> Can't help to think that you are literally squeezing yourself into this decision. The Durango for a small trailer is probably ok but just ok due to a short wheel base and it is also a narrow vehicle. Face it it isn't a full size SUV. Then you have a 3.55 rear gear which isn't great either. Then you put 6 people in not so big vehicle with out sizing the vehicle for growth of said people.
> 
> Now for the trailer. Call me a candy ass but how do you fit 6 people and all of their clothes, toys, supplies and other camping essentials in a smallish vehicle and small trailer. Easily 50% of us went bigger in trailers and then equal or greater did the truck along with it. If it were me it would take all of 10 minutes to be uncomfortable with a setup that has very limited capabilites for the present and certainly none for the future. Therefore my best advice would be to save some more loot and get a full size 3/4 ton SUV and a larger trailer and be happy. I am near certain that if your like 99% of us then I'm saving you money telling you to go bigger from the start.


You are correct, definitely trying to force it and make it all fit with what I have to work with. How this started is that we have season tickets to Richmond and Martinsville NASCAR races and what we use to do is rent a motorhome to go to these races. A few weeks ago the company that we normally rented the rv from said they no longer were going to do rentals. We looked around and no one else rents rvs in our vicinity that would fit us all (8 seat belts required). That is when we started to think about our own trailer. Eventually planned to do it one day and use it for camping too but time frame got accelerated. Researched a lot of trailers and liked the Outbacks the best. Seems like there are limited vehicles that can move 8 people plus tow. The 3/4 ton Suburban would probably be ideal but just can't afford at this time. I was hoping to find something that would work for us and the Durango for a time but now looking bleak. Thanks for your input.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Use the Durango to tow with half the kids and have the DW in a second car with the other half. That gets you home and back but man are you going to be tight in either trailer with 8.


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## vvsarpsjr (Aug 17, 2008)

kycamper said:


> Can't help to think that you are literally squeezing yourself into this decision. The Durango for a small trailer is probably ok but just ok due to a short wheel base and it is also a narrow vehicle. Face it it isn't a full size SUV. Then you have a 3.55 rear gear which isn't great either. Then you put 6 people in not so big vehicle with out sizing the vehicle for growth of said people.
> 
> Now for the trailer. Call me a candy ass but how do you fit 6 people and all of their clothes, toys, supplies and other camping essentials in a smallish vehicle and small trailer. Easily 50% of us went bigger in trailers and then equal or greater did the truck along with it. If it were me it would take all of 10 minutes to be uncomfortable with a setup that has very limited capabilites for the present and certainly none for the future. Therefore my best advice would be to save some more loot and get a full size 3/4 ton SUV and a larger trailer and be happy. I am near certain that if your like 99% of us then I'm saving you money telling you to go bigger from the start.


Agree with most of what NJMikeC said except that the 2006 Durango has a 119" wheelbase and is fine for a 21 RS, but I do not see how 8 people can be in a 21 RS-We have four and find it very liveable, but eight?
[/quote]

No doubt it would be tight and not ideal, we've been in the 21rs when searching. Fortunately most of the kids are small at this time and we are use to small spaces together. One in each bunk, the two youngest in the couch bed, two on the dinette bed and two in the double bed. Hoping it doesn't rain much.


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## Paul (May 14, 2008)

I tow my 23RS with a 2002 2500HD 6.0L 4X4 and it works going through the Texas Hill Country. On the trips that we have made this summer we have had five adults. The DW my 18 yr old son my 20 yr old daughter and her boy friend normally tags along (don't get me started, different story). There is room for us all but it can get tight. Even though you have a tow pkg I think you will tear up the Durango towing these trailers loaded with passengers in the vehicle. I would suggest that you load up the entire crew, get inside either of the TTs, and go forward with your sleep plan and see if you can tolerate each other. I feel that these TTs will be rapidly grown out of. That's my 2 Cents.


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

We had the same question come up last week, but the person was looking at a 26' Outback.

Here is the link to that thread. There is some GREAT information on that thread...take a few minutes and read all of them.

http://www.outbackers.com/forums/index.php...urango&st=0


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## KosinTrouble (Jul 18, 2005)

If you can split up the family into two vehicles I think you will be fine. You will be close to numbers if you split family up into two vehicles. If you and oldest, two middle age kids were in the durango and you fill up the other car with gear and the rest of the kids, I think you will be ok with the Durango.

The biggest downfall of the durango you have is the gears. We towed the 26rs for a bit with our durango but it had the different gears and the durango was EMPTY! except for fuel, me, wife and kids (2,4 years old). Everything else was in trailer, and that I wouldnt recomend, its pretty flat where I live and with the short wheel base of the durango you got some sway which can only lead to trouble.

Kos


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

For around $300-$400 you could have the axle swapped to the 3:92 and that would really help.


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## daves700 (Jun 12, 2006)

Also could help using a resse dual cam sway set up. I towed my 21rs with a 1500 ram, hemi engine no lack of power... Durango should be ok with a proper hitch, and normal driving. But always keep safety first .....


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## Cologne3 (Aug 1, 2005)

We had a 2002 durango when we purchased our 21rs 4 years ago. The tow weights were within specs - one reason we purchased the 21rs.

However, we soon noticed a case of the tail wagging the dog. With the small wheel base of the Durango, there got to be times (curves on roads, stops, windy conditions) when we become a bit nervous using the durango.

6 people in a 21rs would be a bit cramped. 4 is comfortable.


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## kycamper (Jun 1, 2008)

Cologne3 said:


> We had a 2002 durango when we purchased our 21rs 4 years ago. The tow weights were within specs - one reason we purchased the 21rs.
> 
> However, we soon noticed a case of the tail wagging the dog. With the small wheel base of the Durango, there got to be times (curves on roads, stops, windy conditions) when we become a bit nervous using the durango.
> 
> 6 people in a 21rs would be a bit cramped. 4 is comfortable.


The 2002 Durango had a shorter wheelbase and more prone to have sway. Wheelbase increased to 119" in 2004. This decreased sway with similar sized trailers-by the wheelbase guidelines, the Durango with the longer wheelbase can handle a 23-24 foot trailer. Agree swapping to the 3.92 rear end would make a BIG difference, as it increases tow capacity by 1500 pounds.


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## vvsarpsjr (Aug 17, 2008)

Thanks for everyone's input. It has been a big help to a novice. Today started thinking about trading in Durango for a larger TV. It needs to move 8 people so limited to Suburban or perhaps Excursion. Seems like the Suburban should be a 2500 and preferably a diesel. I did not locate one in my area yet. I could only afford it with the Durango trade in so the Suburban would have to become my everday vehicle. With the larger TV I guess I could move up to a 28 which would fit us much more comfortably. However, the idea of Oregon Camper to trade out the rear gears is an interesting possibility I will look into. Thanks again.


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## Paul (May 14, 2008)

vvsarpsjr said:


> Thanks for everyone's input. It has been a big help to a novice. Today started thinking about trading in Durango for a larger TV. It needs to move 8 people so limited to Suburban or perhaps Excursion. Seems like the Suburban should be a 2500 and preferably a diesel. I did not locate one in my area yet. I could only afford it with the Durango trade in so the Suburban would have to become my everday vehicle. With the larger TV I guess I could move up to a 28 which would fit us much more comfortably. However, the idea of Oregon Camper to trade out the rear gears is an interesting possibility I will look into. Thanks again.


Safety and long term comfort for the family. Great way to rethink things!







I hope everything works out for you.


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## N7OQ (Jun 10, 2006)

I don't know about the Durango but My Tahoe pulls the 23RS with ease. I have worse gears than you I think 3:41 but I have no problem with mountain grades and every time I pull my trailer I tow in the mountains and as long as I hit the grade at speed I'm OK but if I'm slowed down by someone I have to drop to 40mph to get into passing gear and I will be back to 55 mph in a lick.


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## garyb1st (Dec 6, 2007)

vvsarpsjr said:


> Thanks for everyone's input. It has been a big help to a novice. Today started thinking about trading in Durango for a larger TV. It needs to move 8 people so limited to Suburban or perhaps Excursion. Seems like the Suburban should be a 2500 and preferably a diesel. I did not locate one in my area yet. I could only afford it with the Durango trade in so the Suburban would have to become my everday vehicle. With the larger TV I guess I could move up to a 28 which would fit us much more comfortably. However, the idea of Oregon Camper to trade out the rear gears is an interesting possibility I will look into. Thanks again.


The 2500 would definitely give you the safety margin you need. With the high price of fuel, some of the big gassers and diesels have dropped in price. If you're thinking of a diesel, make sure you do the research. Some have had problems and they're really expensive to repair. Also maintenance is a huge factor. I bought my first diesel in 2005. Just brought it in for the 30,000 mile service. Oil and two fuel filters, $385.00.

Good luck and safe trailering.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

garyb1st said:


> Also maintenance is a huge factor. I bought my first diesel in 2005. Just brought it in for the 30,000 mile service. Oil and two fuel filters, $385.00.
> 
> Good luck and safe trailering.


Please tell me they did more then that. Maybe a transmission service and changed the oil in the differentials also.

Oil and fuel filter with oil change should be had for no more then $100.


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## GarethsDad (Apr 4, 2007)

Ford diesels take 17.5 Qts of oil @ 3.37 per Qt , $18 for oil filter and $25 for fuel filter + $85 per hour for labor. Thats why I do all maintenance that (I can ) myself. James


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

garyb1st said:


> .... I bought my first diesel in 2005. Just brought it in for the 30,000 mile service. Oil and two fuel filters, $385.00.


Wow...I think you got taken. Was there nothing else done?


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## vvsarpsjr (Aug 17, 2008)

Here's an update. Looked for a 2500 Suburban in the Richmond area today. No luck in the combination of 8 seats, 4.10 rear, 4x4 that we were looking for. Only diesel Suburban I found was a 1994 but with low miles (92,000) but I did not go to look at it yet. Not real interested in 14 yr old vehicle but I know diesels can last. I did hear that the early to mid 90's Chevy diesels did have problems that were corrected in '97. I didn't realize that the maintenance would be more expensive for a diesel engine compared to gas; thanks again for the info. I also talked to two shops about the differential swap for the Durango; both suggested only going to the 3.92 rather than the 4.10. The first shop said it would not be a problem and would cost about $1800. The second shop recommended not doing it because it would affect the primary computer module and possibly result in a variety of errors? The search continues...


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

vvsarpsjr said:


> Here's an update. Looked for a 2500 Suburban in the Richmond area today. No luck in the combination of 8 seats, 4.10 rear, 4x4 that we were looking for. Only diesel Suburban I found was a 1994 but with low miles (92,000) but I did not go to look at it yet. Not real interested in 14 yr old vehicle but I know diesels can last. I did hear that the early to mid 90's Chevy diesels did have problems that were corrected in '97. I didn't realize that the maintenance would be more expensive for a diesel engine compared to gas; thanks again for the info. I also talked to two shops about the differential swap for the Durango; both suggested only going to the 3.92 rather than the 4.10. The first shop said it would not be a problem and would cost about $1800. *The second shop recommended not doing it because it would affect the primary computer module and possibly result in a variety of errors?* The search continues...


There may be errors but a stop at the DC dealer and you can have the ECM flashed so it know what ratio you have installed.


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## mike (Dec 17, 2006)

I would like to share my experience with our 23 rs and our 2003 durango 5.9l 3.55. First it worked great. We towed about five thousand miles this year with it and my biggest complaint was the lack of room and comfort for me dw dd 3, dd 18. It definately became cramped and uncomfortable. The 18 y.o. was complaining about the lack of room on our long trips. Did I feel safe YES. Did the tail wag the dog? NO. did i take it easy? yes. I am now alot more confortable and have more room and in the planning stages of a cross country trip next year. Would I tow my 23 rs with our durango again? definately. But others here have alot more experience and knowledge I just wanted to share my experience. Also u should be able to find a suburban relatively cheap these days. Good luck with your search.


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## vvsarpsjr (Aug 17, 2008)

Thanks mike for letting me know it can be done safely with the 3.55 gears. I know with the family our size a 21rs or 23rs is tight but I know we can do it because we are use to close quarters. Our trips would be for long weekends at the most and I suspect we would spend most of the time outside unless it was raining. I will still be searching for a Suburban that would allow me to pull a bigger trailer (I would need to trade in the Durango that I really like and the idea of a Suburban as my everyday vehicle is not too appealing) but also plan to discuss with the Dodge dealer tomorrow about the idea of swapping out the differentials to 3.92.


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## Sayonara (Jul 23, 2007)

Oregon_Camper said:


> Thanks mike for letting me know it can be done safely with the 3.55 gears. I know with the family our size a 21rs or 23rs is tight but I know we can do it because we are use to close quarters. Our trips would be for long weekends at the most and I suspect we would spend most of the time outside unless it was raining. I will still be searching for a Suburban that would allow me to pull a bigger trailer (I would need to trade in the Durango that I really like and the idea of a Suburban as my everyday vehicle is not too appealing) but also plan to discuss with the Dodge dealer tomorrow about the idea of swapping out the differentials to 3.92.


If you have a 4x4 you will have to change out the front differential as well and have some reprograming done. id expect it to be ~$1000 - $1500 based on some quotes I have gotten in the past for other trucks.

Good Luck !


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## outbackgeorgia (Jan 28, 2004)

The "short wheelbase" Durango is 119 inches, three inches longer than a Tahoe. There are many on this forum towing with the Tahoe.
My previous TV, a Gen 1 Durango with 116 inch WB towed our 21RS just fine.

I now pull a 25 RS-S with my Durango 5.7 Hemi and I am SAFE. I am under the rated tow ratings for the vehicle, BUT I replaced the stock shocks with Ranchos, and added Air Lift bags to stabilize the soft suspension of the Durango. My equalizer if fine, but a GOOD WD hitch is REQUIRED. I do NOT tow at 70 mph, however, 55-60 is just fine. The best safety margin is slower speeds, not less weight. If you need a large capacity tow vehicle , then a Durango is not the best choice.
I am hoping someone can explain to me how it is "unsafe" to tow within the factory tow ratings of the TV and Outback with both properly equipped driving UNDER the speed limit.

Dave


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

outbackgeorgia said:


> I am hoping someone can explain to me how it is "unsafe" to tow within the factory tow ratings of the TV and Outback with both properly equipped driving UNDER the speed limit.
> 
> Dave


No one will tell you that you are unsafe if (IF is a big word here) you do as you say. The problems arise when ratings are misrepresented or over looked. Example is the typical question "What is the dry weight of the trailer?" well the dry weight means nothing it is the wet and loaded weight you should know because there can be 1 or 2 thousand pounds difference in the two weights. Also the statement "My tow rating is X,XXX and that is enough to pull the trailer." but the tow rating in the owners manual normally has a little asterisk next to it that indicates it is with a 150 pound driver and often does not even include a full tank of fuel. So once you add mom, dad, the kids and Fido along with all the junk to support them, you have just whacked 5 to 12 hundred pounds off the tow rating. As for the speed limit that is for a unencumbered passenger car not normally for a truck and trailer and those speeds can be badly biased on what part of the country you are in.

Thus the 80% rule of thumb. Use less then 80% of any rating and you should have a better chance of having a care free trip. If you miss that mark a little then you are still well within your limits. If on the other hand you use 99% of your limit but over shoot on the trip home because you could not dump or just had to buy that collection of antique bricks well the ride may not be as safe as you hoped.

Most people on here are into over kill and in the long run that is best but it does not work for everyone and if you choose to use the limit of what ever it is you have then use it but just be aware that you may be pushing your luck.


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

CamperAndy said:


> I am hoping someone can explain to me how it is "unsafe" to tow within the factory tow ratings of the TV and Outback with both properly equipped driving UNDER the speed limit.
> 
> Dave


No one will tell you that you are unsafe if (IF is a big word here) you do as you say. The problems arise when ratings are misrepresented or over looked. Example is the typical question "What is the dry weight of the trailer?" well the dry weight means nothing it is the wet and loaded weight you should know because there can be 1 or 2 thousand pounds difference in the two weights. Also the statement "My tow rating is X,XXX and that is enough to pull the trailer." but the tow rating in the owners manual normally has a little asterisk next to it that indicates it is with a 150 pound driver and often does not even include a full tank of fuel. So once you add mom, dad, the kids and Fido along with all the junk to support them, you have just whacked 5 to 12 hundred pounds off the tow rating. As for the speed limit that is for a unencumbered passenger car not normally for a truck and trailer and those speeds can be badly biased on what part of the country you are in.

Thus the 80% rule of thumb. Use less then 80% of any rating and you should have a better chance of having a care free trip. If you miss that mark a little then you are still well within your limits. If on the other hand you use 99% of your limit but over shoot on the trip home because you could not dump or just had to buy that collection of antique bricks well the ride may not be as safe as you hoped.

Most people on here are into over kill and in the long run that is best but it does not work for everyone and if you choose to use the limit of what ever it is you have then use it but just be aware that you may be pushing your luck.
[/quote]

Just to validate Andy's point, I did some hitch work this weekend and part of that included me getting the current weight of my 28RSS. The sticker on the inside of the trailer says the Outback weight (from factory) was 5,520. Mine tipped the scale at 7,300 this weekend.

Now, there is no food/drinks/clothes in the Outback, but there was a full tank of water, so I can remove ~240lbs from that number. Still....this is WAY over the shipping weight. Your's will vary from mine...but I'm guessing it will be close to mine.


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## outbackgeorgia (Jan 28, 2004)

Agreed.

Actual weights are necessary and it is easy to overlook adding just that extra bag of charcoal, water, propane tank, etc. It adds up quickly.

Leaving a campground with full black and grey tanks plus fresh might add well over 500 pounds.
However, I would recommend 80% of the posted limit vs 80% of the max weight! Weight is linear, energy is not.
Unfortunately, sometimes I feel that if I am not towing my Outback with a dually diesel, I am somehow to be declared "unsafe". Just a feeling I get reading some posts.

Dave


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## mike (Dec 17, 2006)

I would also like to reinforce the investment of a quality weight dist. hitch. We and others seem to be real happy with the equalizer. There are others out there but again that is what worked for us. I also would like to add that u would want a good quality brake controller our is the prodigy. Good luck.


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## vvsarpsjr (Aug 17, 2008)

Spoke with the service manager at the local Dodge dealer that I bought the Durango from about the 3.55 to 3.92 swap. He was not excited but said he would talk to his differential technician. The message I got back is that they would do it and it would cost $3300. That is almost twice what the 4x4 off-road shop quoted me. I'm not sure why the big difference unless it is rebuilt vs new. The idea of gaining about 1500lbs of towing capability without getting a new TV is significant for our large family but it still make more sense to find a Suburban.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

vvsarpsjr said:


> Spoke with the service manager at the local Dodge dealer that I bought the Durango from about the 3.55 to 3.92 swap. He was not excited but said he would talk to his differential technician. The message I got back is that they would do it and it would cost $3300. That is almost twice what the 4x4 off-road shop quoted me. I'm not sure why the big difference unless it is rebuilt vs new. The idea of gaining about 1500lbs of towing capability without getting a new TV is significant for our large family but it still make more sense to find a Suburban.


Keep shopping the change should be less then $1500 parts and labor for both the front and back.


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

vvsarpsjr said:


> Spoke with the service manager at the local Dodge dealer that I bought the Durango from about the 3.55 to 3.92 swap. He was not excited but said he would talk to his differential technician. The message I got back is that they would do it and it would cost $3300. That is almost twice what the 4x4 off-road shop quoted me. I'm not sure why the big difference unless it is rebuilt vs new. The idea of gaining about 1500lbs of towing capability without getting a new TV is significant for our large family but it still make more sense to find a Suburban.


Sorry to hear you're having such a hard time getting this option priced right. Sometimes shops just double/triple what their normal costs would be to scare away the customer. They might not want to do this or might not have a person that can really do it well. Just my thoughts...


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## mike (Dec 17, 2006)

if u have a dodge warrarnty, check to make sure that u will still be covered if another shop does the work. Or maybe hope to never use the warrarnty


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## Sayonara (Jul 23, 2007)

CamperAndy said:


> Keep shopping the change should be less then $1500 parts and labor for both the front and back.


I agree. $3300 is outrageous !


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## kmsjs (Apr 14, 2008)

We tow our 21rs with a 2005 Durango. I don't have any issues in the mountains of Colorado, or on the 3000 mile trip that we took this summer. The 21rs tracks nicely behind the Durango. I do recommend a good wd hitch with sway control. The biggest problem I have encountered is finding good towing mirrors!


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

kmsjs said:


> We tow our 21rs with a 2005 Durango. I don't have any issues in the mountains of Colorado, or on the 3000 mile trip that we took this summer. The 21rs tracks nicely behind the Durango. I do recommend a good wd hitch with sway control. The biggest problem I have encountered is finding good towing mirrors!


McKesh mirrors. Best you can buy...IMHO


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## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

Being the owner of a 23RS - I would not tow one with a Durango. A 21RS is ok - several folks here tow a 21RS with Hemi Durango's and have good luck. You will definitely be happier with the 3.92's and like others have alluded to - $3300 is both obscene and typical of dealer prices. We did 10 nights in our 23RS with 3 adults and 2 kids (5yrs and 6mos.) recently. It was getting a little "itchy" inside towards the end due to the very cramped space. A 23RS sleeps alot of folks comfortably but it will put you in very tight quarters if you get more than say, 4 people in it at the same time. Granted, we don't go camping to spend time in our camper - we spend most of our time outside having fun. However - it is something to bear in mind. The floorplan is really tight. Just a bit of experience from a 23RS owner for ya. Just consider that experience is coming from a family who has 4-5 on trips (mom comes with us on some trips). You have 8.









Just something to note - it is common to see people who say things like "I towed that trailer with a xyz and it was fine!". I would encourage you to look past that, check out their sigs, and see what they are towing with now. Get my drift? Good luck finding a 2500 'Burb. We would like one as well.

-CC


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## vvsarpsjr (Aug 17, 2008)

I did find a 2004, 6.0L, 2WD, 3/4 ton Suburban with a tow package and a 4.10 rear. Would this suit our size family in term of enough engine power to move the vehicle, passengers and TT? Would I miss not having 4WD in a tow vehicle? Thanks for helping me along in this process.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Where do you live? Snow and ice would be the only reason to want 4wd in your TV.


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## vvsarpsjr (Aug 17, 2008)

We live in central Virginia and wouldn't be planning on camping in times of the year that would bring snow and ice so maybe 2WD wouldn't be too bad but I would want to have 4WD if I need to make the Suburban my everday vehicle too.


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## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

A few folks here have the 6.0 in a 3/4 'burb and it is "ok". Not great or good - just "ok". Specifically, I am thinking of California Jim. I say that assuming that you will be pulling a very large camper to accommodate all of those folks. The 6.0 is a good motor to be sure. You might look around the internet to see if some folks who have them have modded them and what effect it has had on mpg/performance. Some day, I am going for an 8.1l with 4.10's and will drop headers, dual exhaust and an intake on it, primarily to improve mpg. The 6.0 gets mpg that is nearly as bad as the 8.1 which is why I am leaning that way. You get a great deal more power with an 8.1 and you miss out on what, 1-2mpg? On the downside, 8.1's are *far* harder to find than 6.0's and they will be more expensive.

Good luck and happy 'burb hunting!

-CC


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## mike (Dec 17, 2006)

collinsfam_tx said:


> Being the owner of a 23RS - I would not tow one with a Durango. A 21RS is ok - several folks here tow a 21RS with Hemi Durango's and have good luck. You will definitely be happier with the 3.92's and like others have alluded to - $3300 is both obscene and typical of dealer prices. We did 10 nights in our 23RS with 3 adults and 2 kids (5yrs and 6mos.) recently. It was getting a little "itchy" inside towards the end due to the very cramped space. A 23RS sleeps alot of folks comfortably but it will put you in very tight quarters if you get more than say, 4 people in it at the same time. Granted, we don't go camping to spend time in our camper - we spend most of our time outside having fun. However - it is something to bear in mind. The floorplan is really tight. Just a bit of experience from a 23RS owner for ya. Just consider that experience is coming from a family who has 4-5 on trips (mom comes with us on some trips). You have 8.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What i said is that i felt very safe with the durango and my 23 rs as others have said some feel that unless u have a diesel 1 ton u are unsafe, its really up to u to judge for yourself as to what is safe and unsafe. We did three trips to topsail from chicago 1000 miles each way with our durango/23rs combo including hills in tenn, kentucky. At no point did i feel underpowered, sway or out of contol. I even did that trip straight in seventeen hours. I do not recommend 17 hours straight and will probably never do it again. The reason we went with the upgrade is that it is a more comfortable veh for travel- meaning my kids, dw and myself all felt like we had a little room. It also had quadrasteer which i thought was pretty cool and we bought if from someone i trust. If this deal did not come up we probably would have waited for another year. I DID NOT BUY THE BURB BECAUSE WE FELT THE DURANGO WAS UNSAFE!!!. Some here might even say towing a 23' tt with a 5.4l is underpowered. But I would never say that. get my drift.


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## Tyvekcat (Aug 28, 2007)

vvsarpsjr said:


> We live in central Virginia and wouldn't be planning on camping in times of the year that would bring snow and ice so maybe 2WD wouldn't be too bad but I would want to have 4WD if I need to make the Suburban my everday vehicle too.


It must be something here in Virginia. I tried to find a good shop to swap 3.55 out of my 96 Dodge Ram 4wd. Never could find anyone willing or competent enough. I didn't have the tools or time to do it myself. I thought about it. 
That truck was good, it had the 5.9 magnum V8. Plenty of motor, not good when tied to the Outback here in the hills of SWVA.
I sold it last year, found a 2500 CTD with 4.10 and never looked back. Its unbelievable the difference.
I like the 4.10's. some prefer the 3.73's but I don't think I would give them(4.10) up now. I don't drive much in flat lands.

If the trailer leaves us, the truck stays. Not daily driver though, that would be way to much overkill. the Jeep and the beetle are for that.


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## vvsarpsjr (Aug 17, 2008)

As I have been shopping around for a Suburban, I've have realized that for my situation, I am looking for a narrow type of Suburban. The relatively common 1500 with a 5.3L engine and 3.73 axel ratio will not significantly increase tow capacity over my Durango, the same Suburban with 4.10 axel ratio increases the towing capacity over my Durango by 800-1000 lbs. That increase is helpful but not a lot considering my circumstances of having to trade in the Durango and use the Suburban as an everyday vehicle. The 2500 Suburban with a 6.0L engine and a 3.73 axel again does not significantly increase tow capacity over the Durango. But adding either the 4.10 axel ratio or the 8.1L engine to the 2500 Suburban does greatly increase towing capacity. If I can find someone to do it correctly and without overcharging, it still may make the most sense to put 4.10 differentials in the Durango.


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## garyb1st (Dec 6, 2007)

CamperAndy said:


> Also maintenance is a huge factor. I bought my first diesel in 2005. Just brought it in for the 30,000 mile service. Oil and two fuel filters, $385.00.
> 
> Good luck and safe trailering.


Please tell me they did more then that. Maybe a transmission service and changed the oil in the differentials also.

Oil and fuel filter with oil change should be had for no more then $100.
[/quote]

Oops, typo. It was only $285.00

But they washed it and filled the tires.









First time I almost fell over. That was just the oil change. Third ime it included the two filters. Ouch.

Parts 149.81. 2 fuel filters = $80.25 16 qts Oil @$3. per = $48.00 I could have gotten synthetic for another $3 or $4 per. Element and gasket. $21.56

Labor $125.00 Change oil. 1 hour. $60.00 Replace full filter. each 1/2 hour $32.50 total $65.00. Different labor rates? No idea.

Now here's the magic. These guys can sqeeze 2 hours of labor into 1 hour and 20 minutes.


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## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

mike said:


> Being the owner of a 23RS - I would not tow one with a Durango. A 21RS is ok - several folks here tow a 21RS with Hemi Durango's and have good luck. You will definitely be happier with the 3.92's and like others have alluded to - $3300 is both obscene and typical of dealer prices. We did 10 nights in our 23RS with 3 adults and 2 kids (5yrs and 6mos.) recently. It was getting a little "itchy" inside towards the end due to the very cramped space. A 23RS sleeps alot of folks comfortably but it will put you in very tight quarters if you get more than say, 4 people in it at the same time. Granted, we don't go camping to spend time in our camper - we spend most of our time outside having fun. However - it is something to bear in mind. The floorplan is really tight. Just a bit of experience from a 23RS owner for ya. Just consider that experience is coming from a family who has 4-5 on trips (mom comes with us on some trips). You have 8.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What i said is that i felt very safe with the durango and my 23 rs as others have said some feel that unless u have a diesel 1 ton u are unsafe, its really up to u to judge for yourself as to what is safe and unsafe. We did three trips to topsail from chicago 1000 miles each way with our durango/23rs combo including hills in tenn, kentucky. At no point did i feel underpowered, sway or out of contol. I even did that trip straight in seventeen hours. I do not recommend 17 hours straight and will probably never do it again. The reason we went with the upgrade is that it is a more comfortable veh for travel- meaning my kids, dw and myself all felt like we had a little room. It also had quadrasteer which i thought was pretty cool and we bought if from someone i trust. If this deal did not come up we probably would have waited for another year. I DID NOT BUY THE BURB BECAUSE WE FELT THE DURANGO WAS UNSAFE!!!. Some here might even say towing a 23' tt with a 5.4l is underpowered. But I would never say that. get my drift.
[/quote]

Mike - my response was not directed at you in particular but rather a general number of situations which your post happened to remind me of. If you feel that it was then I apologize for that as it wasn't meant that way. Some here might say that towing a 23'tt with a 5.4 is underpowered? You don't have to say it because that "some here" is me and I have said it oh...what...20 times? 30? At least the 5.4l 2V in my truck feels underpowered to me.







Your personally directed hostility is unneeded. Can we keep it civil?
















Back on topic - good luck with your possible purchase of the Suburban. It sounds like a good one although the version I am looking for is the 8.1l. It is probably a little bit of overkill for what I need today. I am sure the 6.0 would do just fine for my 23RS. I myself wouldn't have use for 4wd living where I do - I would make that choice based upon weather conditions and where you camp. 4wd is a great safety net though - it only takes once to be grateful beyond means that you have it.

-CC


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## having_fun (Jun 19, 2006)

CamperAndy said:


> Where do you live? Snow and ice would be the only reason to want 4wd in your TV.


I don't nessessarly agree with this, I got stuck on wet grass more than once!


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## mike (Dec 17, 2006)

collinsfam_tx said:


> Being the owner of a 23RS - I would not tow one with a Durango. A 21RS is ok - several folks here tow a 21RS with Hemi Durango's and have good luck. You will definitely be happier with the 3.92's and like others have alluded to - $3300 is both obscene and typical of dealer prices. We did 10 nights in our 23RS with 3 adults and 2 kids (5yrs and 6mos.) recently. It was getting a little "itchy" inside towards the end due to the very cramped space. A 23RS sleeps alot of folks comfortably but it will put you in very tight quarters if you get more than say, 4 people in it at the same time. Granted, we don't go camping to spend time in our camper - we spend most of our time outside having fun. However - it is something to bear in mind. The floorplan is really tight. Just a bit of experience from a 23RS owner for ya. Just consider that experience is coming from a family who has 4-5 on trips (mom comes with us on some trips). You have 8.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What i said is that i felt very safe with the durango and my 23 rs as others have said some feel that unless u have a diesel 1 ton u are unsafe, its really up to u to judge for yourself as to what is safe and unsafe. We did three trips to topsail from chicago 1000 miles each way with our durango/23rs combo including hills in tenn, kentucky. At no point did i feel underpowered, sway or out of contol. I even did that trip straight in seventeen hours. I do not recommend 17 hours straight and will probably never do it again. The reason we went with the upgrade is that it is a more comfortable veh for travel- meaning my kids, dw and myself all felt like we had a little room. It also had quadrasteer which i thought was pretty cool and we bought if from someone i trust. If this deal did not come up we probably would have waited for another year. I DID NOT BUY THE BURB BECAUSE WE FELT THE DURANGO WAS UNSAFE!!!. Some here might even say towing a 23' tt with a 5.4l is underpowered. But I would never say that. get my drift.
[/quote]

Mike - my response was not directed at you in particular but rather a general number of situations which your post happened to remind me of.  If you feel that it was then I apologize for that as it wasn't meant that way. Some here might say that towing a 23'tt with a 5.4 is underpowered? You don't have to say it because that "some here" is me and I have said it oh...what...20 times? 30? At least the 5.4l 2V in my truck feels underpowered to me.







Your personally directed hostility is unneeded. Can we keep it civil?
















Back on topic - good luck with your possible purchase of the Suburban. It sounds like a good one although the version I am looking for is the 8.1l. It is probably a little bit of overkill for what I need today. I am sure the 6.0 would do just fine for my 23RS. I myself wouldn't have use for 4wd living where I do - I would make that choice based upon weather conditions and where you camp. 4wd is a great safety net though - it only takes once to be grateful beyond means that you have it.

-CC
[/quote]
Yes we can keep it civil, Its just that when people upgrade thier tv some think it is because they felt thier prior tv was unable to do the job. I loved my durango and it was our first tv. I occassionaly have to drive the burb just to get the feelings of loss from selling my durango and I tend to take things a little personell. I accept your apology and offer mine up as well. I have seen a few people tow bigger tt's than mine with a durango, I believe even someone posted on this thread that they tow a 25 rss with thiers. Yes I know the durango has its limitation with wheelbase, but it has more that adequate power and with the right sway/wt dist, we feel it was more than adequate for our needs.

Yes I have seen some posts where someone is towing a 30' tt with a 4.7l or half ton etc. I was just sharing my experience with someone who had some questions.

Good luck on your travels and next year we are planning a trip from chicago to topsail to west coast and back maybe we can get together for an adult beverage and discuss this more in a civilized friendly and outbacker way.


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## mike (Dec 17, 2006)

regarding 4wd we bring our tt every year to a place that overlooks a lake and has a steep, crushed limestone driveway. We tried this year with our durango to get it up the hill in 2wd to see if 2wd could be an option for us. Unfortunately, we need 4wd to do this as the wheels started spinning. If u plan on camping on concrete pads with no significant grades to pull up then it might be an option, but imho the 4wd is well worth spending the xtra money.


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## kmsjs (Apr 14, 2008)

vvsarpsjr said:


> I was looking for some advice. I have a Dodge Durango Limited 4x4 2006, 5.7 L hemi, 3.55 gears, with tow package. Would like to get an Outback 21rs or 23rs; would prefer the 23rs for the little bigger size (we have 6 kids). Will all of us in the Durango with some gear probably weighs about 6200lbs. Would the 23rs be pushing it too close to the towing limit of 12,500 and too rough on the transmission? Can't afford a bigger truck and can't afford to burn out the Durango. We are use to small spaces and like the Outback so would it be smarter to stay with the 21rs and be a very close knit family. Thanks.


We have a 2005 Durango and my husband would not go any bigger then the 21RS. I did try to push him to go bigger. We live in Colorado and it goes up the hills pretty well. We are a family of four so the 21 works perfect for us. This Summer we had our nephew with us for two weeks and it really wasn't crowded. The worst was sharing a bathroom with a 14 year old. But, until they make an Outback with two bathrooms. I always go on the theory you can upgrade later, always something to look forward to...


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