# Tow Vehicle Advice Requested



## jackdm (Apr 14, 2012)

Greetings:

We are interested in purchasing a new Outback Sidney 275FBH or 276FBH with a dry weight of about 7600 pounds. Two questions:

1) Can bicycles fit through the rear external hatch door and be stored under the flip-up bunk area? If so, how many bikes? There are five of us in our family.

2) We need a new tow vehicle for this size of trailer, and will likely consider a new Ford F250. The big question is whether to purchase a truck with a diesel or a 6.2L gas motor. Much of my driving throughout the year will be 3 miles to work each way at 30 miles an hour. Also, we live in the north country with lots of sub-zero temperatures in normal winters (this past winter was an exception). The truck could be plugged in most nights when home, but not during the day when at work or elsewhere.

Any advice on either or both questions would be much appreciated.


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## gzaleski (Aug 29, 2009)

Diesel


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## willingtonpaul (Apr 16, 2010)

Given the high frequency short trips, a gasser. Unfortunately it is most likely your best best. If you only had a longer everyday commute.


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## W5CI (Apr 21, 2009)

Get a Ford F-150 with the EcoBoost it will pull the TT with ease and get you good Mileage


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## raynardo (Jun 8, 2007)

Once you go diesel, you'll never look back.


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## therink (May 13, 2010)

It all depends how much you tow per year. If little towing, then I would go gas with 4:10 axle. I just couldn't justify the upfront cost of diesel options in my case. Some swear by diesels and that is fine. My 6.0 gasser does fine for my towing and everyday driving needs.


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## rsm7 (Aug 8, 2009)

jackdm said:


> Greetings:
> 
> We are interested in purchasing a new Outback Sidney 275FBH or 276FBH with a dry weight of about 7600 pounds. Two questions:
> 
> ...


The cold isn't a problem, it'll start, but the 3 mile drive is. You may want to consider getting the gasser. The 6.2 is plenty for that size trailer. Or you could consider getting the diesel and take the long way to work with a grin from ear to ear!


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## muddy tires (Jun 22, 2007)

I live in Toronto and travel to Northern Ontario. Diesels warm up a little slower but no problem with cold beyond that. The short commute however will kill a diesel. My commute is about 25 km and I love my Duramax.


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## WYOCAMPER (Mar 28, 2007)

willingtonpaul said:


> Given the high frequency short trips, a gasser. Unfortunately it is most likely your best best. If you only had a longer everyday commute.


x2

Short commute, get the diesel. The 6.2L should be able to handle that trailer with ease.


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## moonshot (Apr 21, 2011)

Diesels are much less stressful. Turning 1800 RPMs is so much more relaxing than worrying about every hill. If you can afford one on the newer ones that is...


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## egregg57 (Feb 13, 2006)

As mentioned before...the short commute is not a good thing for a diesel. They need to "Stretch Thier Legs".


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## jackdm (Apr 14, 2012)

Thanks to all. Will probably go with a 6.2L gas due to the short daily commute, although I'm not sure I understand what problems that may lead to. Another reason I am considering diesel is that currently the local dealer has a discount of about $11000 on diesels vs about $5000 on the 6.2L gas, so a new diesel is only a few K more. The last time I traded trucks the discount was higher for gas pickups.


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## GlenninTexas (Aug 11, 2004)

With those kinds of discounts, I'd go with the diesel anyway. I understand the short commute argument but you can always take it for a drive and blow it out on occasion. The discounts will pay for the diesel plus you may get a mile or two better fuel mileage and, well you'll have a diesel.

Regards, Glenn


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## rsm7 (Aug 8, 2009)

jackdm said:


> Thanks to all. Will probably go with a 6.2L gas due to the short daily commute, although I'm not sure I understand what problems that may lead to. Another reason I am considering diesel is that currently the local dealer has a discount of about $11000 on diesels vs about $5000 on the 6.2L gas, so a new diesel is only a few K more. The last time I traded trucks the discount was higher for gas pickups.


Basically diesels need to be run in order to get to correct operating temperature. They will not get there by idling. So you will never fully warm it up on a three mile drive. This will or at least can lead to varnish and deposits building up on the valve train as it never burns it off. The other issue is modern diesels have a DPF (diesel particulate filter) which traps soot in order to comply with current emissions laws. When the DPF is full the computer overfuels the engine, heating the exhaust gasses extremely high, which burns the soot into white ash. This exhaust cleaning cycle is called a regen and the truck needs to be running at speeds greater than 45mph and lasts around 15 minutes. You can buy a diesel if you want but it needs to run more then 3 miles to function properly.


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## luverofpeanuts (Mar 9, 2010)

jackdm said:


> Greetings:
> 
> Vehicle for this size of trailer, and will likely consider a new Ford F250. The big question is whether to purchase a truck with a diesel or a 6.2L gas motor. Much of my driving throughout the year will be 3 miles to work each way at 30 miles an hour. Also, we live in the north country with lots of sub-zero temperatures in normal winters (this past winter was an exception). The truck could be plugged in most nights when home, but not during the day when at work or elsewhere.
> 
> Any advice on either or both questions would be much appreciated.


I'd rethink the F250. I have a 2006 F250 Diesel and love it. But I have a Travel Trailer. If I had a 5th wheel, I'd be, without question, looking at an F350. The F350 will give you several hundred more pounds of payload room, which you will need with a 5er. IMHO, I'd never consider an F150 with a 5er.. even now with the heavy duty payload package.

Gasser or diesel is personal preference...but I'll say the diesel provides a much better towing experience. I drive about 5 to 7 miles to work, and my F250 is my daily driver. I do have the opportunity to get up to highway speeds though. I live in Minnesota and I've not had a single issue starting my 2006 (relatively old) diesel, and mine has sat outside in the winter the last 3 winters. I try to remember to plug it in when it gets below 15 F.


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## Scoutr2 (Aug 21, 2006)

danny285 said:


> Get a Ford F-150 with the EcoBoost it will pull the TT with ease and get you good Mileage


Although a 1/2-ton truck could pull your trailer(s), if you can swing it, go with a 3/4-ton truck. I don't care what people say about 1/2-tons with all the extra stuff that tries to make it behave like a bigger truck - it is still a 1/2-ton truck. The 3/4-ton suspension will better handle a long, tall, heavy load safely and reliably and you will be able to haul most everything you want in the truck bed. 1/2-tons are OK for pulling a "heavy" load, but they fall short on the ability to safely and reliably control the rig in an emergency situation or with crosswinds. But more than anything, because of the heavy tongue weights of these trailers, most people exceed the recommended cargo capacity of a 1/2-ton truck and don't realize it. The GVWR of the truck is what you need to be concerned about. That is the maximum allowable weight that the truck can carry on all four wheels, not the weight it can pull. Those are two different things. The 275FBH specs say the trailer has a hitch (pin) weight of 1450#. That alone could take you over the GVWR of most 1/2-ton trucks. And that number will get bigger when you add batteries, propane bottles, awning, and your gear loaded in the trailer. Add to that the passengers and gear/firewood in your truck bed and you will be over the GVWR of any 1/2-ton truck. 5th wheels are *HEAVY*!

There are some here who will disagree with me, but the vast majority will give you the same advice I just did.

And if you can afford it, diesel is the best way to go. I was faced with a similar situation as you a few years back. The truck is my daily driver - less that 10 miles each way. And I only pull the trailer about 6 weekends a year and usually for a few thousand miles on our annual vacation. I could not justify the extra $8000 for the diesel and transmission option for my situation. But if you can - GO for it!

Hope this helps!

Mike


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## jackdm (Apr 14, 2012)

Thanks to all of you for your replies. Planning to get a 3/4 ton, just not sure whether diesel or gas. The price difference seems less at the moment (due to much larger discount from sticker price for diesel), so the main concern for me is what if any problems might arise due to the relatively large amount of in town driving.


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## WYOCAMPER (Mar 28, 2007)

jackdm said:


> Thanks to all of you for your replies. Planning to get a 3/4 ton, just not sure whether diesel or gas. The price difference seems less at the moment (due to much larger discount from sticker price for diesel), so the main concern for me is what if any problems might arise due to the relatively large amount of in town driving.


See rsm7's post (post #14) on this thread for a good explanation.

For what it's worth, I was in the same boat as you a few years back (daily driver, short commute) and went with a V10 gasser. Diesels like to work and they like to run. My short commute of 7 miles wouldn't even get the truck warmed up, let alone up to operating temps. Although no gasser can pull like the new diesels pull, the 6.2L will do the job for you admirably, save you some money in initial purchase price, cost you less in regular maintenance and potentially save you money in problems from lack of usage down the line. Just my opinion. Good luck!


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## Shelby-GT-500 (Apr 22, 2012)

jackdm said:


> Greetings:
> 
> We are interested in purchasing a new Outback Sidney 275FBH or 276FBH with a dry weight of about 7600 pounds. Two questions:
> 
> ...


I have an Outback 280RS. I originally bought a 2011 F150 super crew ecoboost 4x4. It towed great power wise. That motor is amazing. Ran into a few problems though. The trailer was supposed to be about 6200 empty. with 2 batteries propane full and dishes close water and a few tools it weighs 7600 lbs. The GVRW of my f150 was 7200lbs. With almost 700 lbs of tongue weight the truck only had a couple hundred pounds of capacity left so if I had filled the bed with gen grill chairs table and more the truck is over weight. The other problem was towing the trailer swayed very badly. It is to long for that wheel base. I had the 5.5 bed. I added two sway controllers friction type and it still swayed. I think the 6.5 bed would have been better. This trailer is very borderline for being 1/2 ton towable. It gives you a serious pucker factor when towing. it is a handful to manage. I sold my f150 and got and F250 with a huge hit on value. The F250 does a better job as it has a longer wheelbase so less sway. I got the diesel. It is over kill for this trailer. Just makes things easier. There is one major problem I found out about the new ford diesel. The 6.7 like the GM 6.6 is having HPFP failures. Unlike Ford GM is covering these under warranty. Seems as though there is not a lot of failures yet but at this time Ford is denying all claims of HPFP failure. Saying it is bad fuel causing this. The cost of this repair is 8,000 to 18,000 as Ford makes you replace everything in the fuel system lines injectors etc. This is a serious consideration when deciding on a diesel or gas motor. Wish I had known before I made my purchase! You can google Ford HPFP failure and be prepared to do a lot of reading. Love my truck but.........

Thanks


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## sixisenough (May 1, 2011)

I think Gas would be your best bet given the miles per day you drive. Diesels need to be driven long enough to stay warm. I'd say at least 30 miles per day. If not it will cause problems. As far as the bikes it will scratch up your floors from the friction of traveling especially during far travels. I recommend a Reese bike rack and install it on the back of the Trailer


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## 4 Outbackers (Mar 5, 2008)

danny285 said:


> Get a Ford F-150 with the EcoBoost it will pull the TT with ease and get you good Mileage


X`s 2


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## luverofpeanuts (Mar 9, 2010)

From Ford's website. 
http://www.ford.com/...790|31810|32847

Comparison
2012 F150, F250, F350, Tundra Dbl-Cab

These are 'spec' numbers and could be reduced by as much as 500 pounds (I've seen the yellower stick on trucks in the lots showing that big of difference). The F150 max payload shows 2290. The F350 max payload shows 4460. The F250 is at 3290, so that has quite a bit of room too.

Hitch weights on 5th wheels are large... 1000# to 2000#. Even with no reduction for options, I personally, would not want to *plan* to use a truck with MAX payload of 2200. It doesn't mean I might not consider it for limited duty. I carry easily a 1000# of gear in the truck... 600 of that is people and dogs, so it will be in the truck...no other place for it.

I have a buddy who traded his F350 crew cab for a 2012 F150 eco boost. he loves it. Better MPG daily driving. *NOT* better mileage towing though. Raw MPG were pretty simliar to 6.4 diesel towing larger snowmobile trailers ($$/gallon cost weighs in on this though... so it's not quite that simple). The only problem with the F150 is he couldn't even put one snowmobile on a bed platform. With his old F350 he could put TWO.

I'd be really really tempted to go with an 2012 F150 w/ecoboost if I was replacing my '06 F250. For my Travel Trailer, it'd still be within the numbers for my needs... and would most definitely be a better daily driver. For a 5th wheel though.... still has to be the F350 for me.. . Other factors like raw brute strength of handling the load in emergency situations weigh into my mind too.


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## Barry (Mar 13, 2011)

I pull an Outback 23KRS toyhauler. Just traded my 2004 F150 4 wheel drive with 113,800 miles for a 1999 F250 two wheel drive with the 7.3 deisel with 139,800 miles on it. Older truck but man what a difference. this is my third deisel with the other two being a Chevy 3500 dually and a Ford F350 dually but I had always pulled a goosneck horse trailer and our camper was a popup so no issues but the TT behind the F150 was sorry.

I am happy as a lark with the F250 7.3 Powerstroke. Getting better mileage than my gasser also.

Just my two cents.


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## sl93z (Nov 16, 2008)

I started out with a 2000 Silverado 1/2 ton 5.3L pulling a 2007 28RSDS. I crunched the numbers before I bought the trailer and using an equalizer hitch everything was within allowable limits--but not by much. Having experience with engineering I know that they over-engineer for safety because they know people will exceed the listed capacities so I didn't worry too much about "toeing the line" on the hauling/weight capacity. The guy I bought the trailer from used a F150 to pull it and said it worked fine for him. Towing it home was fine on the flats, but boy did my engine have to rev when it came to going up even slight inclines, and I definitely knew there was something wagging behind me when there was a crosswind. Going up the Lewiston grade (2000 ft climb over 7 miles; see Camper Andy's signature pic) I could barely do 35 mph and the engine was screaming all the way up. Was it legal? Yes--but it was well outside of my comfort zone and I did not feel confident pulling with it. After 4-5 trips I decided I needed a 3/4 ton and traded into a GMC HD2500 with a diesel. Wow, what a difference! It is now a pleasure to pull the trailer and I don't feel like the trailer is controlling me.

Also note that there are different ratings for 3/4 tons based on the type of axle they put under them. We had a few trucks in the mining fields that we lost axles on because they were the "light" 3/4 ton axles instead of the "heavy" ones (if there is a big center hub sticking out of your rear wheels you have a heavy axle).

For your needs I'd say get a "heavy" 3/4 ton with a gas engine. It will hurt the wallet the few times you're towing, but should be more efficient as a daily driver. If you really want a hauling machine with a gas engine find an older GM with an 8.0 liter engine.


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## Scoutr2 (Aug 21, 2006)

sl93z said:


> I started out with a 2000 Silverado 1/2 ton 5.3L pulling a 2007 28RSDS. I crunched the numbers before I bought the trailer and using an equalizer hitch everything was within allowable limits--but not by much. Having experience with engineering I know that they over-engineer for safety because they know people will exceed the listed capacities so I didn't worry too much about "toeing the line" on the hauling/weight capacity. The guy I bought the trailer from used a F150 to pull it and said it worked fine for him. Towing it home was fine on the flats, but boy did my engine have to rev when it came to going up even slight inclines, and I definitely knew there was something wagging behind me when there was a crosswind. Going up the Lewiston grade (2000 ft climb over 7 miles; see Camper Andy's signature pic) I could barely do 35 mph and the engine was screaming all the way up. Was it legal? Yes--but it was well outside of my comfort zone and I did not feel confident pulling with it. After 4-5 trips I decided I needed a 3/4 ton and traded into a GMC HD2500 with a diesel. Wow, what a difference! It is now a pleasure to pull the trailer and I don't feel like the trailer is controlling me.
> 
> Also note that there are different ratings for 3/4 tons based on the type of axle they put under them. We had a few trucks in the mining fields that we lost axles on because they were the "light" 3/4 ton axles instead of the "heavy" ones (if there is a big center hub sticking out of your rear wheels you have a heavy axle).
> 
> For your needs I'd say get a "heavy" 3/4 ton with a gas engine. It will hurt the wallet the few times you're towing, but should be more efficient as a daily driver. If you really want a hauling machine with a gas engine find an older GM with an 8.0 liter engine.


Lots of wisdom here! (And I've been up that Lewiston grade - my sister lives in Boise and used to live near Kamiah. My 1/2-ton Suburban was nearly this bad towing our large Coleman popup UP Teton Pass - the road that goes from the west entrance of Yellowstone to Idaho Falls)

One thing I haven't seen posted on this particular thread, and which I remind folks of when it is appropriate - consider your insurance policy. Not all insurance companies are alike, but most operate the same way - take in as much money as you can through premiums and pay out as little as you can in claims. Consider this scenario . . . you have an accident while towing your 30+ foot, 7500# trailer behind a 1/2-ton pickup. While you always felt safe, and perhaps a little smug about getting by with a smaller truck, it was overloaded, according to the manufacturers specs. God forbid that this scenario plays out - but just assume there are injuries, or worse, fatalities. Your insurance company is on the hook for *BIG* bucks - UNLESS they can find an escape route. IF they even get an inkling that you disregarded manufacturers weight limits, they will deny the claim in a heartbeat. Doesn't matter if you are unaware of the situation, because it is your responsibility to know.

And then, there is the safety of you, your loved ones, and the rest of us on the road. At the least, a breakdown from a fried tranny or rear end could spoil a vacation and be very costly if you are far from home. (And the truck manufacturer may not honor warranties if they detect you were overloaded.)

So ask yourself if you're feeling lucky. Not trying to scare you, but just trying to point out how bad things could get. I have seen a couple of horrific trailer accidents, and they were both 1/2-ton vehicles towing very large trailers - and the folks were on vacation. (One was a 1/2-ton Suburban that rolled several times ant the travel trailer looked like it exploded! Saw this along I-90, in South Dakota.)

Just some thing you may not have considered.

Mike


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## therink (May 13, 2010)

Amen Scoutr2! I was at the limit with my old 3/4 ton Silverado and just upgraded for that exact reason. No worries here now.


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## raynardo (Jun 8, 2007)

Here's another big AMEN to Scoutr2.









Insurance companies have lawyers on retainer that do very well by helping their employers not pay out claims. Heck, that's even a John Grisham book!


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## Chuggs (Jun 8, 2010)

Dodge 3500...and take the back way home


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