# Hybrid Vs. Hummer



## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

Are hybrid cars just liberal hype? Something for you to ponder... Who knows if this is accurate, but it makes you think.

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/e...ial_item.asp?Ne March 7, 2007
Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
By Chris Demorro
Staff Writer, The Recorder

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate â€˜green carâ€™ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.
Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?

You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Priusâ€™s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.

However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldnâ€™t be writing this article. It gets much worse.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the â€˜dead zoneâ€™ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Priusâ€™ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalistâ€™s nightmare.

â€œThe acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,â€ said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesnâ€™t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce â€˜nickel foam.â€™ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I havenâ€™t even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Priusâ€™s arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called â€œDust to Dust,â€ the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

Sweeeeeeeeeeet....

Now I can defend getting a Hummer! Thanks Steve.


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## Scott and Jamie (Aug 27, 2006)

The funny thing is just about every hybrid car I have seen is plastered with a oil product, "bumper stickers". The ones I have seen must of had between 10 to 25 bumper stickers stuck on them.

Jim the 28 would look really good behind a H1


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

Scott and Jamie said:


> The funny thing is just about every hybrid car I have seen is plastered with a oil product, "bumper stickers". The ones I have seen must of had between 10 to 25 bumper stickers stuck on them.
> 
> Jim the 28 would look really good behind a H1


That would sure be a sweet site. Might have to upgrade to the 31RQS if I had a Hummer.


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## 3LEES (Feb 18, 2006)

Oregon_Camper said:


> The funny thing is just about every hybrid car I have seen is plastered with a oil product, "bumper stickers". The ones I have seen must of had between 10 to 25 bumper stickers stuck on them.
> 
> Jim the 28 would look really good behind a H1


That would sure be a sweet site. Might have to upgrade to the 31RQS if I had a Hummer.
[/quote]
Inspite of the Hummer's size and brawn, it is fairly lame on towing ability.

A 2004 H1 has a max tow rating of 7542 lbs. H1 specs

A 2007 H2 has a max tow rating of 6700 lbs. H2 specs

So Jim, if you bought a Hummer, you'd have to buy another tv to tow your 31RQS









Dan


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Anyone that thinks a Hummer will last on AVERAGE 300,000 miles is sniffing to much exhaust fumes.

Neither of the two profiled cars are purchased to save money but the doom and gloom described about the Pirus is way over the top.

Sudbury was a dead zone 50 years before the term Global warming was coined and there are actually trees growing there now. So the damage done by 3 or 4 generations ago is now starting to recover.

Steve if you really believe this you should say so but just to let you know you should say it based on fact or at least your personal opinion and not on political stereo types. I am a conservative person by nature (hell I even listen to Rush Limbaugh) and I know that for the human race to survive dependence on oil will have to change. Maybe not so much in your life time or even in our kids life time but there is an end to the supportable use of ground source hydro carbons in our not too distant future.

Off the soap box now.


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## GlenninTexas (Aug 11, 2004)

I've got to agree with Andy when he said we need to eliminate our dependence on oil. Hybrids are simply a step toward that goal and are not the ultimate answer. Neither is ethanol, but again a step in the right direction. I applaude those who care enough to buy those cars now, just to further the cause.

I personally believe hydrogen could be part of the ultimate goal. Unfortunately the cheapest way today involves extracting hydrogen from oil. What's wrong with that picture?

Now if I was in charge of one of the major oil companies, I think I'd try to be a little forward thinking and launch a program to LEAD in creating a distribution system for hydrogen. Heck, just one fiscal quarter's excess profits from Exxon/Mobil last year could have funded this. In addition, I would fund major research in hydrogen technology to insure the investment could be recouped. This technology by the way could also provide energy for our homes (and RVs!) I saw a proto-type of a unit that consisted of two uinits about the size of a washer and dryer set. One extracted hydrogen from water. The hyrdogen was then fed to the second unit which used the hydrogen to create electricity. The resulting emmision was - water. Of course this prototype used more energy than it produced and was ungodly expensive, but it certainly proved the concept.

Off my soapbox too.

Regards, Glenn


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

Andy as I said at the top it makes you think. I didn't write the article, just reposted it. My personal thoughts... I don't buy into the global warming conspiracy not until we have time to study it without politics, right now its not about science fact is about politics.

I think what I took from the article most of all wasn't about oil consumption but how bad for the environment some of these other choices are. I have no desire to ever own a Hummer, to me they are all about ego (sorry to offend Hummer owners). I feel the same about most Hybrid too, its all about ego. The point made about a low consumption gas engine makes logical sense and appears at least from this story environmental sense.


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Glenn brings up the point of having to start somewhere. I'm sure Toyota is more than aware of how costly it is to get that Nickle shipped around the world (the cost in Yen (or $), I mean). I'm sure they are looking for ways to reduce that cost with cheaper batteries. Everything has a downside, but we can minimize that downside with time and a lot of trial and error. Remember the first cars with internal combustion engines weren't really that efficient, clean, or powerful. We've managed to squeeze a lot out of the engine so far, and the current runup in gas prices will just encourage everyone to get even more out. I would expect Hybrids (and other concepts) to become much more efficient and enviornmentally friendly over the years. Perhaps someday they will even be able to tow something!


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## OutbackPM (Sep 14, 2005)

While the information presented can be written several different ways it does bring out a point often missed when talking about the environment. That is the overall system needed to bring, in this, case the Prius to being.

Much has been said about hydrogen but with todays technology you would have to use more energy than the hydrogen has in it to produce enough fuel your car. Something like 1.2 times compared to gas or diesel which is around 0.2. The numbers include transportation and processing. That is not to say that it won't improve but it is a long way off at this point so other technologies make better overall sense.

Biofuels are produced 'locally" so have less transportation but may have higher enegy to make if you include the petrol chemical fertilizers per acre needed to grow it.

Its all complicated and not something I like to think about when I am in my Outback at a camp ground but needs to be addressed when home so my kids and thier kids will be able to enjoy the same outdoor experience.


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## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

What happens to the batteries in the hybrids? Surely you can't just take one of those cars to a junkyard at 100k. It is a question I haven't seen the answer to as of yet. Perhaps they recycle them in some way in an effort to keep in line with the "environmentally friendly" image. I dunno but I am curious about that.

I see hybrids as more of a "statement" car than a "solution" car. People buy them to make a statement, not to solve a problem. Hybrids have been shown to be no more cost effective than high mpg gas or diesel engined products, when you factor in their intial cost (even with subsidies). In fact, I rather suspect that if you buy one to keep it for a long time (as we do our vehicles) that it would cost you more in the long run due to the added complexity of the batteries, electric engine and regenerative systems.

Here is one possible scenario that occurred to me - what is the trade-in value of a Prius at 90k mi. with the dealer knowing that the batteries are only good for 100k? If people are aware of that - why would they want to buy one with 80-90k knowing that before too long, they will be looking at 4-6k in battery replacement cost. I know that is somewhat hypothetical but scenarios like that seem to be a real possibility to me.

I sure would like to see a solution to our oil dependency though. By "solution" I mean a fuel that has equivalence to price, availability and power output as what we have today in gas and diesel.

-CC


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## Lady Di (Oct 28, 2005)

Some of what was said makes me think. However as a Prius owner, I don't have ANY bumper stickers on it and I haven't used it a lot on highway driving, it is my daily driver for errands and short hops. I do like the fuel economy it provides. It is a comfortable fun car to drive. This winter the mileage dropped when it got so terribly cold, and the gas engine had to run more to keep the car warm.

The bit of highway driving I've done gave me an average of 55 MPG which isn't too shabby. And that was at speeds of 65-75.

I still like my Prius.


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## map guy (Jan 11, 2007)

collinsfam_tx said:


> What happens to the batteries in the hybrids? Surely you can't just take one of those cars to a junkyard at 100k. It is a question I haven't seen the answer to as of yet. Perhaps they recycle them in some way in an effort to keep in line with the "environmentally friendly" image. I dunno but I am curious about that.
> 
> I see hybrids as more of a "statement" car than a "solution" car. People buy them to make a statement, not to solve a problem. Hybrids have been shown to be no more cost effective than high mpg gas or diesel engined products, when you factor in their intial cost (even with subsidies). In fact, I rather suspect that if you buy one to keep it for a long time (as we do our vehicles) that it would cost you more in the long run due to the added complexity of the batteries, electric engine and regenerative systems.
> 
> ...


The battery disposal /replacement issue is going to be a surprise for some long term Prius owners who did not study the maintenance schedules before purchase. IMHO the cost of maintenance around the 100K mark is pretty prohibitive and pretty much kills any short term "green" advantage. Many governmental agencies are going to be doing a gut check when the budget dollars have to allocated then spent on their fleets of Prius vehicles. Prius is not the only vehicle in this class either....

Don't get me wrong here -we do need alternatives to "oil dependant" fuels but for my family the Prius cost premium and resale unknown at 90,000 is to much of a crap shoot for our budget.

Map Guy


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## outbackj (Oct 31, 2006)

I don't know which is greener betwen the two vehicles. But I can tell you that I am greener then both. I am going to puke. I hope the "global warming" starts soon. I am cold! If anyone thinks that WE have anything to do with "global warming" that is egotistical. It is cyclical, look at the studies done by anyone other than Al Gorr. Mr. ego trying to give his pathetic career a boost. If feel sorry for us all when the ice age returns. There isn't a furnace in the world that will keep our trailers warm. God bless and good luck!

JM


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## Ldeneau (Mar 8, 2007)

Gee... I almost feel guilty for buying my Honda Civic Hybrid. It's one of the best car I ever owned without even noting the great gas mileage. I traded my Chevy Aveo in to get it. 
Heck, I think I'll just have to go RVing and sit and worry about global warming now...............


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## GlenninTexas (Aug 11, 2004)

The disposal plan for the batteries is to stack them up around the barrels of spent nuclear fuel rods out in the desert someplace or in New Jersey









Seriously though, I suspect that they can be recycled.

Regards, Glenn

PS. And for those of you that have a hybrid, don't feel guilty, if early adapters wouldn't buy, then companies would build them and we'd never make any progress. I applaud you.


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## Lady Di (Oct 28, 2005)

Actually, NiCad batteries have been around for a long time. If we knew all the applications in which they are used, it would likely make the Hybrid impact a very small percentage of the overall consumption.

I know by being retired from what is now Verizon, that the phone industry has used banks of NiCads of which one battery likely dwarfed the Hybrid usage.

Makes one wonder if the author was trying to justify his hummer?


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Lady Di said:


> Actually, NiCad batteries have been around for a long time. If we knew all the applications in which they are used, it would likely make the Hybrid impact a very small percentage of the overall consumption.
> 
> I know by being retired from what is now Verizon, that the phone industry has used banks of NiCads of which one battery likely dwarfed the Hybrid usage.
> 
> Makes one wonder if the author was trying to justify his hummer?


With that being said, I also have a friend who sells NiCads to Quest.. 
They use Batteries to stabilize the phone system and run the phone system for several days in power outages..

I can tell you just for the state of Colorado, Quests battery sales run high in the 6 figures a year.. They have huge banks of them.. They have to be replaced every now and then, like 3 years..

As far as the Prius.. We have to start somewhere.. Technology will get better..

My beliefs are when will we see more research in gas vapor technolgy.. It is as dangerous as hydrogen, thats why its not being used.. But there are thousands of patents on gas vapor carbs in the patent office.. It does work, I built a gas vapor carb in college for a summer extra credit project.. I got 80 mpg in a '73 plymouth satelite with a 318 V-8 and a automatic tranny.. But the problem..... Gasoline vapor is much too dangerous to be used by the general public... Thats why its not being used... With this modern electronic technolgy, a safe gas vapor system is now a possibility, and there is reseach being done as I write..

Do some research on Smokey Unick.. He patented one also..

If oil supplies ever run low, dont worry, technolgy will quickly change to deal with it.. The alternatives we see are now in the lil baby stages..

Carey


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## Lady Di (Oct 28, 2005)

Carey,

I have worked with those battery banks. That's how I know about them.

Yes they are used as backup short term power.


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## N7OQ (Jun 10, 2006)

When I worked at Kodak we had 2 guys who had a long commute one bought a Echo and the other one bought the Toyota or Honda Hybrid I think the Honda. Well the Echo got 10 MPG better that the Hybrid and cost 4 or 5 times less. That Hybrid didn't get anything close to what they advertised. There is no such thing As a green car yet and wait until they have to replace those batteries, It a Lose Lose situation. Gee I wonder what Chicken Little um I mean Al Gore Drives?


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## Crismon4 (Jan 25, 2005)

Well.....just for fun, I went ahead and submitted the Editorial to Snopes.com. I'll post the response when I receive it!


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

One thing is for sure. One of these days we are going to run out of oil.

Whatever we can do now to prepare for that day is worth the effort. As far as the efficiency of hydrogen vs. gas, as Hydrogen can be produced with electricity, and multiple renewable - non polluting - methods of generating electricity are available, the efficiency is really a non-issue. So what if it takes more energy to make it, than it yields. If that energy is from solar, wind or a wave farm who cares? Hydrogen is just a storage method. And nothing... gas included... is 100% efficient.

Happy Trails,
Doug

_Oh, a posting we will go,
A posting we will go.
High ho, the merry-oh,
A posting we will go!_


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## Lady Di (Oct 28, 2005)

I sometimes think our energy consumption is a loose/loose situation anyway.









The wind farms kill birds, so what is the answer. We would have to go WAY back in technology, and still couldn't be sure we were energy efficient.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Lady Di said:


> I sometimes think our energy consumption is a loose/loose situation anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We do the best we can, with the technology available, and don't worry about what we can't control.

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

In a wreck, batteries are not very safe, neither is hydrogen, or gas vapor.. These are our alternatives. If these are used, fire is a big problem, along with the possible inhalation factor. Both hydrogen and gas vapor are in high pressure situations which is problematic also. Batteries can explode on impact. There is really no safe place for a bank of batteries in a car..

Propane and Natural gas are alternatives, but the ease to get factor has made it fall by the wayside. Both of these are also less safe compared to gasoline in a wreck. Its much more complicated to fill your car with propane versus gasoline. In fact, you cant do it yourself..

I feel Hydrogen may fall by the wayside too.. Its in the same class as Propane/Natural.. It would take a long time to get things changed over to Hydrogen filling stations.. Hydrogen is more volitle than Propane/Natural too.. You would need a certified filling person to fill your cars with hydrogen.. Certified people cost money..

All of these forms(hydrogen,propane,natural gas, gasoline vapor) is a energy under pressure.. Things under pressure takes more maintenance to keep it as safe as liquid gasoline/diesel.. Who wants that!!

Gasoline Vapor needs a different refinning process.. The present process cannot be used to make gas vapor. The gasoline would need further refining to make it easy to vaporize. This means much more expensive gasoline(like 20-30 dollars a gallon)..The vaporizing would then need to be done in the Auto on demand... It is made of heat(lots of it) which creates pressure(lots of it) This is a bomb in a car!.. I made one, and could have blown myself to bits rather easilly.... Its very expensive just to make the vapor in the auto.. My system cost several thousand dollars and this was in 1984.. Yes its much more efficiant, 100 mpg or more is a possibility.. But it is very unsafe and expensive to make.. Gas vapor is a gasoline steam.. Just like the old locomotives that used steam for power.. It needs to be made on demand.. This is THE problem! In OUR world, 100 mpg with vapor will still cost the same as now because of all the OTHER factors.. 
What I learned... It is possible, but untill mass amounts of money and technolgy is applied, forget it.. Because of the high mpg claims, and manufactureres not using it, the public thinks its not real, as in the public's eye, if its higher in mpg, it would be stupid not to use it, so it couldnt be real.. There are many factors to overcome in gasoline vapor which is why the maunfacturers have stayed away from this technology.. Again, even though mpg is lower in liquid gas, safety is MUCH higher.. Safety will always win, regaurdless of better mpg.... I can tell you, it was a very fun and dangerous project!

Manufacturers use what is safe and cheap.. Liquid gasoline/diesel. That doesnt mean its the most efficiant, its the safest for us to use, and still is the easiest to get.. They are very weary of changing to alternatives in any form because all the other alternatives are less safe, harder to get.
Less safe means more lawsuits.. Cars will only get much more expensive if the alternatives are used. The old tried and true way is still the best way.

They have made engines to burn both hydrogen and gas vapor successfully.. Yes thay can get much better milage out of auto engines. Any who reserches this will find it true... Mileage is not the issue! Manufacturing/Lawsuit costs are the issues.. They are somewhat backed into a corner, by the consumer.. Even if they want to introduce different and alternative energy supplies to auto engines, until it is as safe and reliable as gasoline, changes will come very slow.. They will have to be forced to change. What happens if they make a hydrogen car and it ends up being like a '73 Pinto that blew up on impact? Are we gonna sue? This scares the h*** out of them.. It only makes since to make small changes in autos to up the mileage and keep liquid gasoline till the very end..

They are introducing cylinder deactivation right now.. When this technolgy is finalized we will see gas engines better by more than a 1/3 in mileage.. Its now being introduced, and they are now making 2nd generations of these.. They will be making camless engines soon.. This will drasticly lower the size of the engine and up the mileage and power, as this is a much more efficiant mechanical design.. Changes are being made slowly and safely!.. But the change to alternative energy is many years away.. The change to technolgy in gasoline/diesel fired engines is happening right now.. Just be patient... Liquid gasoline is here to stay for many reasons.. They will do everything in there power to safely make improvements in mpg until there is something else available at your corner filling station.. The technolgy is now starting to be seen to up the gas/diesel mpg in the 2006/2007 models.. Its coming all! Cars will get better mileage soon..

The pressure is starting to be applied to our automakers for changes in alternative power publicly.. There hands are tied in many ways though.

Politics are heavy into all energy supplies.. No need getting into that! lol

A maunfacturer who makes cars cannot change to a different energy supply even if it wants to, till that energy is available at your corner filling staion... We need to focus are efforts on those behind the energy if we want changes.. Our manufacturers can only change when the source changes! Till then, they can only use what is readilly available to all. They will focus some effort to soothe the public in alternatives, as the public places the blame on the automakers.. But they will still focus the majority of there efforts on getting better mileage in liquid gas/diesel fired engines, and with present technolgy coming our way, they may be on to something.....

Carey


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Carey - If gasoline were introduced today as a fuel for cars the world would scream that it is not safe. Certified fillers?? Every Podunk gas station that has a Propane filling station with a couple of minimum wages high school drop outs can fill your propane tanks, so it would be the same if we had more cars that ran on propane. Currently in Oregon the average Joe is not allowed to fill his own gas tank, all stations are full service and that has not hurt the economy.

In Brazil most cars are dual fuel and many are tri fuel, with cars being set up for any of the following gasoline, alcohol, propane, butane, methane, plus there are lots of diesel powered vehicles but diesel is very expensive in Brazil. Many stations there are set up for filling several of these fuel types. Why you ask, it was because the country wanted to be self sufficient in oil production/use. As of the summer of 2006 Brazil became a net exporter of oil, in part because of the fuel options the average car driver has. These cars are just as safe with all these fuel types on board as they would be if they only had gasoline.

I applaud anyone that tries to reduce oil consumption, as one day it have to happen or there will be anarchy.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Andy, I guarantee you that if Hydrogen was a fuel being used, the fillers would be certified.. All I said about propane was that you are still not able to do it yourself, thats all... Big difference in propane and hydrogen..

And again, even though they use different fuels elsewhere, the vast majority are fuels not under pressure..

If the majority used fuels under pressure, you would see many more firey wrecks out there.. In OUR world we will never see fuel under pressure in use for the majority.

Brazil has to be self sufficiant on fuel use.. They have no choice.. What is working there would never work here.. Compare there low tech cars there to our high tech cars here.. With our world of electronic fuel injection here, we are stuck to fuels that are gas, or ethonal based. You as well as I know that Brazil has no emission laws unlike us.. Our emission laws disallow most of the fuels other countries use.. There is no comparision to what Brazil does compared to us here. Our gasoline is refined totally different than any other country in the world.. It is blended to gain cleaner emeissions, unlike all the others.

Carey


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

I applaud those who choose hybrids, I'm just not ready to make that committment like my sister and her dh have.

I know they have hybrid mid size SUV's.....are there plans for the mega SUV's and full sized trucks to go there in the future?


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

To clear up a little confusion regarding the use of hydrogen as an automotive fuel. There is nothing that says it has to be stored under pressure. In fact, BMW is now producing a liquid hydrogen powered car that you can buy today.

As far as safety is concerned, and in the words of a recent Road & Track article on the subject: "And before you start thinking _Hindenberg_, be aware that hydrogen is inherently safer than gasoline in this regard: It disperses with alacrity; by contrast, spilled gasoline forms a puddle directly above which resides a perfectly stoichiometric - and explosive - mixture of gasoline vapor and air" In other words, in the event of a ruptured fuel tank, you are better off with liquid hydrogen that will disperse almost instantaneously, than a pool of gasoline that will wait around for a spark to ignite it!

That's not to say that liquid hydrogen is an easy or cheap solution to the problem (there will be no easy or cheap solutions). To remain a liquid, hydrogen must be kept at 423 degrees below zero fahrenheit! But there are solutions to this problem as well. Again quoting the R&T article: "BMW uses a stainless steel tank-within-a-tank with layers of vacuum super-insulation between the two. The insulation of aluminum reflective film and glass fiber is equivalent to 56 ft. of Styrofoam. It's said that a snowman residing within the tank would take 13 years to melt!"

Actually, the biggest obstacle to the wide spread use of hydrogen in North America, is the lack of infrastructure to support it. But you know what, just over 100 years ago - with much less technology available than we have today - there was no infrastructure for the refining or distribution of gasoline either. It sure didn't take long to change that back then!

As far as the comment regarding Brazils' low tech cars vs. our high tech cars... Really? The auto industry does not sell current models in Brazil? I guess their money isn't as good as ours, eh? In fact, if vehicles in Brazil are able to easily run interchangeably on multiple fuels, I would say they are pretty high tech indeed!

Bottom line, eventually we will have to do something. And the sooner we get started, the cheaper and better the outcome will be in the long run. There will be some false starts along the way. In the long run, hybrids may be a dead end. Hydrogen may be as well. But the only way we are going to find out, is to build them and see how they work. I for one, am all for doing that now, rather than waiting for the eleventh hour when our options will be much more limited.

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Brazil's cars are made in Mexico. They have Chevy, Ford, Dodge etc.. They are totally different cars than the US's.. They have no crash ratings. No emisions, catylitic converters, etc. Many are still carberated. Some have throttle body injection, and few have multi point.. For instance The Ford F150 is called a Ford Lobo in down there.. Its a totally differnt truck underneath its skin... So yes our automakers do not sell american cars to Brazil.. They are our Mexican brands.. Please research this.. There cars have to be very basic to run 2-4 fuels.. Our electronic cars are uncapable..

Yes there were few stations 100 years ago, but there were few cars.. To make a switch to Hydro from gas now is not going to happen.. Way too much money.. I know hydrogen turns to liguid at 400 below, but look what has to be done.. In a typical auto it would be stored as a high pressure gas. To expensive to do it any other way..

If we ever run out of gas, we go 3rd world.. Cars will be only for the rich.. It would take many years for this new fuel to finally become cheap enough for the masses.. I hope the US never sees it.

Yes you may see talk, and may even see a hydro car at a show, but beleive me, Right now its pure politics..
What is the cost of that BMW? It very pricey. Yes there is no easy. cheap solution..

Dont worry, as fuel supplies dwindle mpg will rise to meet it.. It has already started.. Just be patient..

We still have firey wrecks, but very few. Gasoline is the safest, cheapest fuel on the planet.. It will still be here many moons from now.. Give our automakers a chance!

Carey


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Well I guess you have been to Brazil and seen the cars just like I have. They don't just use cars made in Mexico. The Europeans make plenty of great cars that are sold down there and Brazil makes their own cars also.

Not having a catalytic converter does not make them primitive and don't go looking to Europe or Japan for one of our pick up trucks, you won't find them but does that also mean the cars they have there are not sophisticated?


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## Lady Di (Oct 28, 2005)

I read/heard on the news somewhere that there have been experiments with a vehicle that runs on water. It has the technology to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen, anbd gets great mileage.

That's my ultimate vehicle. Just pull up to the spigot, and turn it on.

'Course, I wonder what that will do to the price of water?


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

CamperAndy said:


> Well I guess you have been to Brazil and seen the cars just like I have. They don't just use cars made in Mexico. The Europeans make plenty of great cars that are sold down there and Brazil makes their own cars also.
> 
> Not having a catalytic converter does not make them primitive and don't go looking to Europe or Japan for one of our pick up trucks, you won't find them but does that also mean the cars they have there are not sophisticated?


I know that Brazil has many brands from around the globe.. Andy I'm a car nut.. I know there cars look very odd compared to ours..

Brazil's average car weighs 2000 lbs, ours weigh 3300 average. Brazil's average engine size is a 1.6 liter that makes 80-100 hp, and get 40 mpg.. Our engines are much bigger, with much more power and much poorer mileage.. There cars have few options.. There average cars are considered mini cars here.. Just a few models have airbags. Most do not hve power steering or power brakes.. Most have role down windows, and manual locks.. few have automatic Transmissions.. just in the last 5-7 years they have fuel injection..

What about our crashability requirements we have, versus Brazil who have none? What about our Insurance regs, versus theres, concerning crash testing and insurance pricing? These little cars would not fair well getting hit by my Hemi pu... They do not have as much of an issue with being hit by a 5-6000 lb vehicle.. Theres all weigh within 1000 lbs of eachother..

Basically take yourself back 20 years... Thats where Brazil is in there Cars.. Yes they are using dual and tri fueled vehicles, but Brazil does not have the bargaining power to get fuel elsewhere, like we do.. So they are doing what they have to do to have enough fuel for everyone..

If any can remember the Ford Fiesta, or Festiva. The VW Fox, or Rabbit. The Chevy Chevette. The Dodge Omni... These are the size of the vast majority of cars in Brazil.. TINY

There biggest family cars are models such as the Ford Mondeo, which the US equavilant is the Ford Contour.. Can you imagine having a Ford Contour as your largest car available?

If Brazil had the same size cars with our power plants the whole country would truely be in trouble, energy wise..

I'd like to make a point here.. Many americans feel our auto makers have dropped the ball with fuel mileage.. I see many say right here on this forum saying there new p/u gets the same mileage as there old pickups of the seventy and eightys.. Knowone really thinks about this subject, but our cars get more than twice the mileage of the same size 70-80's cars/trucks..

For instance lets compare my rigs.
My work rig is a 1980 Jeep Cherokee Full Size.. It has a 360 AMC engine with 2 barrel carb.. It makes 180 hp.. On the highway at 70 mph it gets 13 mpg..

Now lets compare that to my Dodge Hemi pickup.. It has a 345 engine. It makes 345 hp. and is now getting 18 mpg at 70 mph now that it has broken in..

My new truck makes almost twice the hp and still gets better mileage.. The Hemi is getting about twice the mileage, comparred to the AMC 360, mileage versus power..

With our technolgy in new cars, if I was to accept a pu with 180 hp now, I could have a new pick up that gets above 30 mpg... problem is, us Americans wont accept it! Would you want to tow your Outback with a pick up that made 180 hp?..

If us as Americans would like to step down to Brazil's sized cars our mpg would double on average.. But forget the Outback, Brazil has few camper trailers..

Yes the automakers started heading the way of smaller cars in the 70- 80's.. Problem, Americans wouldnt accept it.. We have pushed and pushed our Automakers for more power and bigger cars ever since.. Now we have very nice big comfortable cars and trucks with oodles of power, just like we ask the automakers to do..

But now that we are in a gas crunch, we are asking our automakers to quickly change it.. Not going to happen.. But they have some new technolgy that very well may allow us to have our power and get great mpg too... But we are still 3-5 years away.. They are not going to lower power, so we will have to wait for this new technolgy to reach us.. Till then pay the price and smile!

There are some alternatives being worked on.. Problem, the oil producers dont want it.. We now have E85 ethanol out there for our use.. Do you know the big name gas stations wont sell it? It is direct competition.. This is why we are not seeing much of it.. The local Shell, Amoco, etc wont allow it in there stations.. If youve noticed, only the no name stations sell E85..

Doug mentioned it wouldnt take long to switch the filling stations over to something else like hydrogen.. I can tell you unless gasoline was totally gone the big oil names would fight this till the end.. It wil never happen!

This is a tough subject that few agree on. I ask you to look though the political smokescreens we have been presented with.. As far as Hydrogen, electric cars, and other alternative fuels.. The oil companies have us by the N*ts.. They will not allow alternatives to be brought in, till gas is almost gone.. If they wont allow E85 to be sold at there stations, then they are not allowing nothing but gasoline to be sold till it runs out..

Yes this is bug hitting the windshield stuff, buts that the way it is..

Now go get in your 300 hp pick up and just go enjoy it.. Thats what they want, its the American way.. In time the automakers will deal with it, but they just cant do an about face, and switch everything to 30-40 mpg.. It takes years..

Andy........... Find me one vehicle down there in Brazil that can tow an Outback.. I know the answer is you wont find one... SO, lets not compare fuel starved Brazil to the gas guzzling US.. There is no comparision.. I would much rather live here in the grand ole USA, SO I CAN GO CAMPING WITH MY OUTBACK!!!!! lol

Its been fun all!!

Carey


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## camping canuks (Jan 18, 2007)

Y-Guy

I believe you have hit some important points on the comparison (although I will always be found of my F-150), however having been to Sudbury many times and friends that live there I believe there are some equally important facts to identify, namely:

Inco in Sudbury has made significant investments to improve its environmental performance, including close to $700 million (Cdn. $1 billion) in equipment and technology upgrades to drastically reduce sulphur dioxide (SO2) emissions. Since the 1970s, they have reduced annual SO2 (sulfur) emissions by 90 per cent. In 2003, they initiated construction of a Cdn. $ 115 million fluid bed roaster, which was completed in the spring of 2006. This facility is designed to reduce SO2 emissions by an additional 90 kilotonnes at the end of 2006. 
(For the record I am not an INCO supporter nor employee) Just thought everyone should know.

Reforestation has begun some years ago and it has come along ways from the pollution nightmare it once was, but as always no impact can be absolutely zero.


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## camping canuks (Jan 18, 2007)

Carey

Interesting about the Lobo, saw many of them while in Melaque Mexico, wondered what they were all about and now I know









Thanks


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Heres another lil tidbit.. kinda fun to look at.. Scroll down to brazil and you can click on the various cars.

Clicky for cars of brazil and about flex fuel cars

Here are the vehicles available in Brazil.. They are all little cars compared to ours.

Chevrolet: Celta, Classic, Corsa, Astra, Vectra, Montana, Meriva, Zafira 
CitroÃ«n: C3 
Fiat: Mille, Palio/Siena/Strada, DoblÃ², Idea, Stilo 
Ford: Fiesta, EcoSport 
Peugeot: 206 
Renault: Clio, MÃ©gane, ScÃ©nic 
Volkswagen: Gol/Parati/Saveiro, Fox, Kombi, Golf 
Honda: Civic, Fit

Carey


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## map guy (Jan 11, 2007)

Wow - still going....

Map Guy


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

While I was in Puerto Vallarta last year I took a few pics of there cars.. These are very similar to cars in Brazil. Once you cross the Mexican border the cars look all about the same..

I feel sorry for these people.. They live in a world where THIS is what you have to drive.. These are average cars down there...... I think its sad... They are death traps in car wrecks.. You can see there is very little crash protection in any of them...... This is the price they pay to drive around... Very sad!

This makes me very thankful I live in the USA and can drive a much safer car.. Even if gas/diesel is 3 or more bucks a gallon..


















Dodge








Ford 








A mini Chevy pu









Carey


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Carey - No doubt about it. To save fuel you have to cut weight. Just like we have special purpose vehicles to tow our Outbacks, the average Joe can have a special purpose vehicle to run around town. The OP on this was comparing a Hummer and a Prius both are used to run around town (you will not see your average Hummer driver taking theirs off road unless they consider the local starbucks coffee shop off road). The Prius would be crushed by the Hummer in a wreak but that does not mean people should not purchase small cars. The Hummer driver would be squashed by your average 18 wheeler but I don't think you are suggesting we ban 18 wheel trucks or that we should all drive 18 wheel trucks so we have the same mass as the other guy.

You think the cars are small in Mexico you should see them in Europe.

I drive a Honda Civic and a Honda Prelude both get 30 plus mpg (and they are OLD cars) now after about 290,000 miles in them and I am still here. I did not die in a crash and neither of them have air bags or ABS or crumple zones. It would be nice to have these things and I am sure that the latest light weight high mileage car built in the US for the US market will have all of these things.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Andy, I have no problem with small cars.. Drive what you like! I think you missed my point..

My problem, its too bad people in other countries can only purchase a tiny car.. Unless you are super rich in Brazil, you are stuck owning a tiny car, with little crash protection.. I say thats too bad, and I feel for them.... I am thankful I live in a country that offers big cars along with small cars.. I'm also thankful I live in a country that requires crash protection.. yes it adds weight, and takes away fuel mileage, but thats perfectly ok.... I'll pay it!

I'm about Braziled out ok.... It was a fun chat with you Andy..

To tell you the truth, I would much prefer traveling in my semi.. They are so much easier to drive than any car or pick up its not even funny.. Literally you can drive 75 mph with one finger.. Cars wonder around some, my big truck just goes straight down the road.. I guess I have driven trucks too many years.. lol

Here is a cool link about some hydro cars.. Hydro info clickyAbout all are using the hydrogen in pressure form.. Most around 5000 psi.. The seats are mounted over the tanks.. They have little power, and are very heavy.. They have a price shown for the Nissan. Its 1 million dollars... lol Guys, they have milestones to go on this hydro stuff... Dont hold your breath..

Hybrids have there purpose.. In dense metro areas only.. As most go into gas engine mode above 30mph.. Out here where I live, whats the real use to own one. Most of our roads are 35mph to 75mph..
Other than making a statement, most prius drivers are no different than the rest of us.. Most are still burning gasoline, as few stay in elctro mode. I wont be impressed till they make an electric car that can be actually driven.. Something with a range of 3-400 miles.. In time they may have safer/better batteries, but till then, these cars are just a way to be different.

Until the oil companies actually run out of oil/gasoline, things will not change much.. I think there will be a world war over oil, long before we run out.. China needs electric cars so we can fuel our gas guzzlers.. lol
I think someone may upset our applecart someday. Hopefully later than sooner..

Right now this stuff is just a way to smooze the impatient public..

Carey


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## Ldeneau (Mar 8, 2007)

*Hey...* I just did my 2006 taxes! Wow, I got a $2100.00 tax credit
for buying that hybrid last March.....Yippee.....


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## Thor (Apr 7, 2004)

Go Green









How about really taken it seriously. Lets look at mileage driven in a year. What is better for the environment. Driver A who drives a hybrid but drives 100miles round trip to work everyday or Drive B who drive a Hummer 1 10miles round trip to work or a guy that lives in the city and takes the bus? How about the bike rider who cycles to work everyday.

I guess my point is that we all need to make the best overall choice. A Pyris is a great community vehicle, even better if you can car pool. An SUV is a great truck for a large active families that need the room and power to pull camping trailers.

Anything that can help reduce consumption (DOD,hybrid etc) reduce emissions (E85, Bio diesel) live where you work all help. If everyone does just a little bit the whole country will be better for it.

Ok....I am off my soap box now.

Reduce, Re-use, Recycle

Thor


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