# Keystone Is A Major Screw Up



## Swany

OK, here were are, it is June 6, the day before my 65 birthday and you probably all know that I have been critical of Keystones product in the past and I am a "half empty" kind-a guy but I gotta tell ya.......... Keystone's manufacturing Process SUCKS! I have an 06 27 rsds. I bought it because of the floor plan. The floor plan is great! Hats off to Keystone on the floor plan! I decided today is the day that I address the "underbelly" problem on my TT. I went over to the storage facility to remove the "cardboard" under-pan because it was sagging clear down to the axles and looking really bad and I was afraid it was going to blow off going down the freeway. . Thank God that I have a 3/4 ton pickup, because that is what it takes to haul the tools and equipment it takes to repair the "factory doesn't give a s&$t stuff" on an Outback. To begin with the entire curb side of the belly pan was fastened on with 5 self tapping screws (5 in 27 feet!) which were placed within 1/4 inch of the edge of the plastic (1/4 " from the edge of PLASTIC). Guess what? they ripped out. But the factory, I'm sure, decided that these fasteners would be adequate because the propane pipe that travels down the same frame rail would probably hold it up. NOT! So, today I ripped it all out and I got my first real look at the manufacturing practices of Keystone. It is not a pretty site! In fact it is down right ugly! The wiring looks like one worker through several coils of wire from one end to a worker on the other. I can't even describe how bad it looks. The plumbing low point at the back end of the trailer? Passes under holding tanks and over cross members. You think it is the "low point"? Think again! It is undescribeably "I don't give a sh%t" bad! There are bolts left out of cross members. There are dead end wires dangling loose and if it weren't for the under pan (that I just threw in the garbage because it was falling off) there would many wires dragging behind the TT. Right now I'm so pissed that I can't even continue. I will take pictures and document the process and share later. I know that you all bought one too. I know that what I say here confronts your buying decision and it does mine. I know that I can make I right but I shouldn't have to. Keystone! YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF! My unit is out of warranty, so all I can do is tell everybody I know! I spent my day laying on my back under an Outback in a dirt yard and I will spend several more the same way! So, how was your day?


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## beachbum

Please let me know what you decide to replace that pan with. I might decide to do that in the future.
david


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## N7OQ

I don't have any of your problems. If you have so much trouble with your TT for this long then why don't you sell it and buy a SOB, I'm sure you will be much happier.

BTW if you really want to rant why don't you try rvnet .com a lot more RV'ers there to here you.

I love my Outback and so glad my cup is half full. Keystone you should be proud of your Outback line but like the old saying goes you can't please everyone


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## jim00592

found the same when i put in quicky in tank. I loomed all wires and tyed up water lines. but still love tt.


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## Swany

beachbum said:


> found the same when i put in quicky in tank. I loomed all wires and tyed up water lines. but still love tt.


I have done a lot of sanitizing to my outback as I am sure you have. Modifications that make it suit your needs are one thing but remanfacturing is another. I am pretty sure that the check I wrote for my outback did not require any "remanufacturing" or modifications.


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## Y-Guy

Swany I feel for you. I loved my Outback but like many RVs the companies goal is to spit them out as fast as they can as cheap as they can. This issue you've run into isn't just a Keystone issue, its pretty much industry wide. I'd seen the same type of average construction when I had our Raptor too, not as shoddy but some things you just scratch your head out and wonder if it would have been that much harder to clean up the installation. I was able to see my Raptor the day it arrived from the factory and before the dealer had time to prep it - OMG I was shocked how dirty it was and how unfinished it was. When the dealer delivered it to me it was night and day difference.

When I started looking at the motorhomes I looked at the Damon line pretty close, almost bought one too. I saw the same type of manufacturing in that as you experienced. Things just put together in a sloppy fashion. One of the reasons I went with Winnebago even though I didn't buy a high end unit was I didn't see the sloppy wiring jobs, things were labled, and routed properly. I don't kid myself I know I didn't buy a high end unit, but by spending a bit more this time I traded some of that quality for some cash. Read through enough posts on RV.net and iRV2.com and you realize how wide spread this lack of quality control really is.

Good luck working through things, remember in the end... just go camping.


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## justinsnow0

I can see where your coming from Swany. I am new to this TT ownership and the Outback is my first. I can tell just from my short time owning it that some things just aren't right but my question is, is there really a better manufacturer out there or are they all the same? I personally, after being to many RV shows have the feeling that they are all pretty much the same. I don't think any of them put alot of pride in their lower end models.


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## Swany

Y-Guy said:


> I can see where your coming from Swany. I am new to this TT ownership and the Outback is my first. I can tell just from my short time owning it that some things just aren't right but my question is, is there really a better manufacturer out there or are they all the same? I personally, after being to many RV shows have the feeling that they are all pretty much the same. I don't think any of them put alot of pride in their lower end models.


I guess if you want to make a million dollars just build a TT that looks like somebody cared...


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## huntr70

Swany said:


> There is nothing here that I can't fix. In fact I am sure that if I put my mind to it I could build a better unit from scratch.


I'm sure you could, with it taking a month and a half, and 3 times the cost.

We ALL spent our hard earned money on these TT's, and some of us have yet to realize that these are cheap, manufactured, homes on wheels that will have issues.

They are built on an assembly line in less than a week. Buy a $500,000 motorhome and watch how they are built.....other than the marble countertops and mirrored ceilings, they are built in the same sloppy fashion as our sub$20K trailers.

My personal opinion is that people have way to much expectations of these things.

Steve


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## Highlander96

At least nobody shot at you today...........

Sorry to hear about your unit. However, they are all built that way. Should they be built that way, no. Unfortunately, these are the facts of life.

Good luck with your project,

Tim


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## Swany

mons02035 said:


> I can see where your coming from Swany. I am new to this TT ownership and the Outback is my first. I can tell just from my short time owning it that some things just aren't right but my question is, is there really a better manufacturer out there or are they all the same? I personally, after being to many RV shows have the feeling that they are all pretty much the same. I don't think any of them put alot of pride in their lower end models.


Well, one only has to look at the automobile industry to see where sloppy mfg gets you. Japanese TTs. If all RVs are built this sloppy then it can't be far off.


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## bill_pfaff

Swany,

Are you going to replace the undercover or just leave it off? Is there insulation under there? Does it look like you could clean it out and leave the cover off?

I really wouldn't need the insulation as we winterize with the first frost and don't use the unit any more until spring.


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## NJMikeC

I know where your coming from. Doubt this helps but it is at least an explanation. Look at how many manufacturers there are. That has to tell you something and what it tells you is that these things are sold to us at tremendous margins to the manufacturers other wise there wouldn't be so many of them. Bet a $20,000 unit doesn't cost the manufacturer more then $7K to produce and that is all in. I also saw that the RV market is still on a tear meaning they are still selling buckets full of them. Also just think about how often we replace them. Where do those trailers go to? Finally I'm a bit like Steve and I really don't see how these things last more then 10 years. The structure in most part is held together by the walls. Any serious leak in those and the unit is history if it keeps on rotting and deteriorating.

Lastly I for sure don't feel offended by your venting. As a group it would be good if we did far more of that and got better quality from less manufactuers at less of a margin to them.


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## BoaterDan

The insulation is between the underbelly area and the floor. It sits above the freshwater tank, for example.

This is kind of an odd post to me since I've been kind of annoyed that there are so many screws holding up the underbelly cover. I have them about every 18 inches all the way down the 31 foot side, and across a couple of beams. I finally decided to just cut an access hole to work on my freshwater tank because it would have taken two days to get the cover off with everything holding it up (including the gas lines).

All that to say it sounds like Gilligan had a hangover the day he buttoned up your underbelly.

As to the wires in there... it seemed obvious to me when working in there that the underbelly is a cost-saving measure for Keystone as much as it really is a marketing feature. By covering that area up they do indeed get to just throw wires any old way and not have to worry about it.

Personally, I think I've got WAY too many things to do than worry about putting all those wires into looms that nobody will ever see, but to each his own.


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## daves700

It does seem the q-control is a industry wide problem. I would like to think the Outback is as good or better than many of the campers sold today (apples to apples)....


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## Swany

Swany said:


> Swany,
> 
> Are you going to replace the undercover or just leave it off? Is there insulation under there? Does it look like you could clean it out and leave the cover off?
> 
> I really wouldn't need the insulation as we winterize with the first frost and don't use the unit any more until spring.


The pan probably needs to be there. there is a vapor barrior but it has lots of holes. take a look at the pictures. There is a link to them in this thread somewhere


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## NJMikeC

Swany,

That is clearly sub-standard, sub-human, whatever. Big time BS!

Your photo's are a little blurry but you should send them to Keystone and get them to help you out with the fix. IF they do anything pretty well and consistent then it is to provide good customer service from what I have come to see.


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## mswalt

Yuk!









All I can say is , it's nothing like mine.

Good luck with your fix.

Mark


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## RizFam

omg ....







THAT IS TERRIBLE!!

Tami


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## Swany

NJMikeC said:


> Swany,
> 
> That is clearly sub-standard, sub-human, whatever. Big time BS!
> 
> Your photo's are a little blurry but you should send them to Keystone and get them to help you out with the fix. IF they do anything pretty well and consistent then it is to provide good customer service from what I have come to see.


OK so after looking at the pics, I'm not just some old ranting fool out here on the left coast?


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## SoCalOutback

Swany said:


> Swany,
> 
> That is clearly sub-standard, sub-human, whatever. Big time BS!
> 
> Your photo's are a little blurry but you should send them to Keystone and get them to help you out with the fix. IF they do anything pretty well and consistent then it is to provide good customer service from what I have come to see.


OK so after looking at the pics, I'm not just some old ranting fool out here on the left coast?
[/quote]

Part of my underbelly cover was pulled off by the wind on my last trip. This was due to a large slit that was cut and then taped over. Of course the tape fell off. I don't know why the cut a slit but it must have been part of the manufacturing processes. I repaired the slit using zip ties and silicone and then used 8" strips of aluminum screwed into the frame to hold the underbelly material in place.

Of course I was disappointed that I had to spend the time to fix underbelly but I have to remind myself that the outback was the best built trailer I could find in the same price range.


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## egregg57

Swany said:


> Swany,
> 
> That is clearly sub-standard, sub-human, whatever. Big time BS!
> 
> Your photo's are a little blurry but you should send them to Keystone and get them to help you out with the fix. IF they do anything pretty well and consistent then it is to provide good customer service from what I have come to see.


OK so after looking at the pics, I'm not just some old ranting fool out here on the left coast?
[/quote]

Okay, I have to admit...I am one of those half full guys. I took what you said in your first post with a grain of salt. I mean how bad could it be? I supervised a Cable Connector repair shop in the Navy for 15 years. I don't care who you are and what experience you have in any given feild of work. If I was a Supervisor, Manager, QA person.......jeez. Stop the bus. I can't count the number of things wrong. Mechanical and electrical. I am checking my under-belly this afternoon. I LOVE my baby, that's for sure. But if this exists below decks then I need to whip out the spot ties and clamps. Yeah, I think you need to send those photo's to Keystone. even though it is out of warranty. I find it hard to believe anyone with a conscience would let something like that pass.

Some one needs a new line of work....

Eric


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## jetjane

Yikes...I wonder what mine looks like underneath. I bet it looks the same if the mess of wires we found behind stereo/dvd player is any indication (we had to pull it out to hook our tv up to it).


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## E9E1CEF

Swany
Maybe that cover on the bottom is there for another reason than to be able to say the Outback has a heated underbelly when it comes time for marketing. You sure can hide a lot of sub standard workmanship under that cover. I have owned three trailers before the Outback all with open bottoms. The wires on them where zip tied, bundled, taped and attached by clamps to the frame. Your pictures remind me of the attic in my house, wires going everywhere. I have a 2007 27RSDS, Iâ€™m almost tempted to pull a corner down and take a peek. I still love my Outback, even if it does have an ugly side, I mean bottom. Hang in there, good luck on your repairs.

CEF


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## tdvffjohn

You don t have to take a peek. All of the Outbacks look the same. Its time saving manufacturing. They sell it as a 'heated underbelly' yet its for ease of bulding. I watched a show recently on buliding rv's. They start with the frame upside down, attatch axles, and tanks and the bottom cover. Its flipped back and now they can run wires and plumbing faster because they do not tie wrap anything, it just lays in the 'cover'. Speed is money saved, for them and the consumer.

John


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## Swany

E9E1CEF said:


> Swany
> Maybe that cover on the bottom is there for another reason than to be able to say the Outback has a heated underbelly when it comes time for marketing. You sure can hide a lot of sub standard workmanship under that cover. I have owned three trailers before the Outback all with open bottoms. The wires on them where zip tied, bundled, taped and attached by clamps to the frame. Your pictures remind me of the attic in my house, wires going everywhere. I have a 2007 27RSDS, Iâ€™m almost tempted to pull a corner down and take a peek. I still love my Outback, even if it does have an ugly side, I mean bottom. Hang in there, good luck on your repairs.
> 
> CEF


The floor plan of my 27rsds is perfect for us. That's why we bought it. We really enjoy traveling with it and plan to do a lot of it. We are thinking that a US tour in it is coming up in the next 6 months or so. Putting the house on the market tonight. when it is gone so are we. that is why I want things right, I don't want to have any problems with it once we take off. So I will work through the bottom side repairs on this thing and probably simmer down after awhile.


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## skippershe

Hi Swany,

I'm sorry you're having to go through all of that hassle and hard work. I too couldn't believe the mess lurking under the belly cover after seeing your pictures. I shudder to think what ours looks like, but like a Pandora's Box, will leave it alone until there is a need to mess with it.

I know you will do a great job and will be quite relieved once it's completed. Your Outback will be better than ever


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## having_fun

by the looks of it, you might just sell that house before you finish your repair! Good luck.


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## Collinsfam_WY

Swany, sorry to hear about your troubles. We looked at a "left over" 06 Outback last year which had the same horrible sagging underbelly cover - except it was the cover on the underside of the rear slide! I couldn't believe my eyes looking at how badly it sagged and how hard it was to push in the slide over the seals. I kept thinking that soon enough, one of them would give - either the seals or that cover. Ugh. Thanks for the info and good luck with your repairs.

Curtis


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## battalionchief3

I need to put a pit in, like at the oil change shop. That would make quick work of the clean-up. Wire loom is cheap and zip ties too. To spot weld a few metal loom holders would not be a big deal. I would probally replace the cardboard with fiberglass sheets and add a few more screws. Place a front and rear vent on the fiberglass cover to prevent moisture. I understand why they do things like that but I agree and I dont like it.......


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## Insomniak

The underbelly was one of the first things I saw with our 23RS. Couldn't believe the mess under there and thought it was a mistake. I was going to have the dealer clean things up until I read on this site that they're all built the same. Just for safety's sake you would think everything would be tied up and secured to the frame. It wouldn't take more than 15 minutes and a few zip-ties and grommets in the manufacturing process. My feeling is - what would happen if you hit a large rock or piece of debris in the road while traveling? The underbelly covering would get ripped off and everything hanging down would go with it! Sheesh....


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## shaela21

Wow, that was really an eye opener. Now it has me wondering what the underside of my OB looks like. The wires running through the frame without grommets is one the many problems I see. I fixed the wiring issue from the junction box aft of the propane bottles for the break away device. Now I am wondering if I should strip the cover off and have a look at the underbelly. Hmmm.
Thanks for the pictures.


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## N7OQ

Swany said:


> I can see where your coming from Swany. I am new to this TT ownership and the Outback is my first. I can tell just from my short time owning it that some things just aren't right but my question is, is there really a better manufacturer out there or are they all the same? I personally, after being to many RV shows have the feeling that they are all pretty much the same. I don't think any of them put alot of pride in their lower end models.


Well, one only has to look at the automobile industry to see where sloppy mfg gets you. Japanese TTs. If all RVs are built this sloppy then it can't be far off.
[/quote]

Hmmm is this why Ford out sold Toyota this year?

I for one love the American made auto's in fact I like anything American made


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## Reverie

Swany,

I don't disagree with your observation that the bottom could have been done better and the accumulation of construction debris is a problem throughout the industry. We pulled the oven out of a friends Wilderness and it looked like a sawdust pit at a sawmill. The one thing I would pick with you is the characterization of Keystone as a "Major Screw Up". Keystone built your trailer to the exact standards you paid for. I notice you didn't say it didn't work, only it didn't look up to your standards. Before you go off thinking I am picking on you, I'm not. In fact I have brought pretty much the same points up here before. I just wonder what good you expected to accomplish by name calling?

The thing that separates us (Outbackers) from the animals (RVNet) is overwhelming civility. While I understand your frustration, your headline immediately made me think I was going to read that they had built your floor plan backwards or installed your hot and cold water plumbing backwards. Maybe you had discovered the toilet draining into the gray tank. I just don't think construction debris qualifies as a "screwup".

Just my two cents. I truly hope you can get some satisfaction out of your trailer. Your subsequent posts actually sound like you like the trailer for the most part. I hope that's true. If it isn't, well I hope you find one that satisfies you.

Nick "Reverie" Robinson


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## Swany

N7OQ said:


> I can see where your coming from Swany. I am new to this TT ownership and the Outback is my first. I can tell just from my short time owning it that some things just aren't right but my question is, is there really a better manufacturer out there or are they all the same? I personally, after being to many RV shows have the feeling that they are all pretty much the same. I don't think any of them put alot of pride in their lower end models.


Well, one only has to look at the automobile industry to see where sloppy mfg gets you. Japanese TTs. If all RVs are built this sloppy then it can't be far off.
[/quote]

Hmmm is this why Ford out sold Toyota this year?

I for one love the American made auto's in fact I like anything American made








[/quote]
Don't get me wrong, I have yet to buy my first off shore car. But the shoddy cars of the 70s invited the Japanese cars in just like the RV guys are doing now.


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## Swany

Reverie said:


> Swany,
> 
> I don't disagree with your observation that the bottom could have been done better and the accumulation of construction debris is a problem throughout the industry. We pulled the oven out of a friends Wilderness and it looked like a sawdust pit at a sawmill. The one thing I would pick with you is the characterization of Keystone as a "Major Screw Up". Keystone built your trailer to the exact standards you paid for. I notice you didn't say it didn't work, only it didn't look up to your standards. Before you go off thinking I am picking on you, I'm not. In fact I have brought pretty much the same points up here before. I just wonder what good you expected to accomplish by name calling?
> 
> The thing that separates us (Outbackers) from the animals (RVNet) is overwhelming civility. While I understand your frustration, your headline immediately made me think I was going to read that they had built your floor plan backwards or installed your hot and cold water plumbing backwards. Maybe you had discovered the toilet draining into the gray tank. I just don't think construction debris qualifies as a "screwup".
> 
> Just my two cents. I truly hope you can get some satisfaction out of your trailer. Your subsequent posts actually sound like you like the trailer for the most part. I hope that's true. If it isn't, well I hope you find one that satisfies you.
> 
> Nick "Reverie" Robinson


I dont know but from the picture comments I'm hearing a lot of OMGs! Could the belly pan coming loose and having to be wired up to get home be considered a "didn't work"? and I believe we all paid for equipment built by professionals in a professional manner. I didn't see any sales literature bragging about the mess in the basement.

I will fix it and be happy with it, but this type of information out in the light of day is what changes practices. By the way, all of that cabling and piping hanging down is not "construction debris" it is the working equipment of the trailer.


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## Bull Elk

Swany,
There is no doubt that the underbelly that is marketed for heat, is really a time saver for Keystone. On the half-full side of things, now would be a great time to install Quickie Flushes or Tornados, as well as a new sound system, possibly some lines for a future beer tap.







The sky is the limit. Anyhow good luck with the new undercover and thanks for sharing.
Rich


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## Swany

Bull Elk said:


> Swany,
> There is no doubt that the underbelly that is marketed for heat, is really a time saver for Keystone. On the half-full side of things, now would be a great time to install Quickie Flushes or Tornados, as well as a new sound system, possibly some lines for a future beer tap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The sky is the limit. Anyhow good luck with the new undercover and thanks for sharing.
> Rich


and back up lights and an outside tv hook up and a second tv feed to the bedroom and run the low point drains out the back. I like your thinking man, I am right there with you....


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## OverFT5

On one of our first mods we needed to cut into the underbelly material. We used to be in the sign business, and the product is called Coroplas. Very inexpensive. When we removed the panel, we too were confronted by sloppy wiring, some sawdust and some suspect mounting hardware. We've built a couple of boats from the hull up, and in the marine environment we are carefull to put the wiring into chase tubes, or tie wrap it and secure it. So, it is one of our plans to upgrade the wiring and do that, do a good check of the infrastructure, and we like the idea of a fiberglas panel for the bottom, with some sort of support rods, we're thinking aluminum angle iron (light and should be pretty stiff)

We realized that everything in the Outback, for the money, is a pretty good deal. We'd be looking at 150,000 plus for a boat with all that in it (part of the value the hull of course). So, even though we're pretty picky, we'll live with it... it is only a 10 year life span we figure.

On the good side, we went to a local Spring company to have a couple small blocks put on the axles to give us a bit more room over the tires. We asked them to check out everything and let us know if anything needed changing for safety sake. The report was, the axles' and bearings are really good, the frame they use is one of the best they've seen (they have been in business for over 50 years), and everything from their point of view is better than average.

So, for a great floor plan, a unique and modern interior, we think Outback is a pretty good product. Oh yea... there's also all of you who make it even better!


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## Dadof4

Thanks for telling us your experience. For me, this site is about education... good, and bad! Hang in there!


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## egregg57

Well I had a peek at mine yesterday afternoon. My unit is a 2005 31RQS. The underside was not nearly that bad. A few draping wires but not all that bad and not bad enough for me to take the bottom off and start cinching things. Good luck Swany


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## Reverie

Swany

My reply has to do with how you characterized the problem, not with your posting about the problem. I think what you brought forward was valid, I only point out that using heated phrases like "Screw Up" mischaracterizes the issue. The reason I hang out on this site is to learn about things like this but there are lots of camping forums out there that provide the same service. What keeps me coming back here is the civility of the place. I was just pointing out that you could have given us the same information without having to resort to the same tactics my 6-year old employs when he wants his way, which is using exaggeration.

Nick "Reverie" Robinson


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## Moosegut

I see this as being akin to the fast food industry. When you go into a fast food restaurant, NEVER, NEVER look at what's going on in the back.







That's why I'm not pulling my underbelly down.


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## Mgonzo2u

There's always tent camping.

As for me, its don't look, don't hear, don't tell


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## wtscl

Just bought my first TT and the Tornado was my first mod. When I undid the underbelly on the door side, I was amazed at the wiring and JUNK lying under there. I work in a field where our wiring has to be precise, and was taken aback at what I say. I then thought about the manufacture side of it. Why spend the extra time and money securing this stuff when the underbelly will "protect" it.

As far as the whole "American Made" vs foreign, take a look at where that 2005 Tahoe was built. Probably not here in the USA. My Toyota Tundra was built in Indiana. I'm tired of people thinking that Ford, Dodge, and Chevy are American made. They have an American name and that's about it.

So far, I am pleased with my OB. There are some issues, but there were also issues with my new house a couple of years ago, and it was "Made in America".


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## bill_pfaff

Heck, I was made in America and look at me!


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## wolfwood

wtscl said:


> Just bought my first TT and the Tornado was my first mod. When I undid the underbelly on the door side, I was amazed at the wiring and JUNK lying under there. I work in a field where our wiring has to be precise, and was taken aback at what I say. I then thought about the manufacture side of it. Why spend the extra time and money securing this stuff when the underbelly will "protect" it.
> 
> As far as the whole "American Made" vs foreign, take a look at where that 2005 Tahoe was built. Probably not here in the USA. My Toyota Tundra was built in Indiana. I'm tired of people thinking that Ford, Dodge, and Chevy are American made. They have an American name and that's about it.
> 
> So far, I am pleased with my OB. There are some issues, but there were also issues with my new house a couple of years ago, and it was "Made in America".











btw, my Tundra was made in San Antonio .... that would be Texas .... USA


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## justinsnow0

Your right about the "American Name" being the only thing. All these car companies are publicly traded and don't think for a minute that Japanese companies don't own good shares of stock in Ford, Chevy, etc.... BUT even though toyota and nissan, etc.. are built here in the USA they have the Japanese methods for manufacturing and not the US methods. The other countries only started building here in the USA because of the tarrifs being so high it is cheaper for them to build them here and just ship the parts in. I toured the new Toyota plant here in Kentucky and I believe it was 90% or more of ALL it's employees were americans with only about 10% being from Japan, of course that 10% were the upper management......

I may own an "american" vehicle but thats only because I can't find a 3/4 ton nissan or toyota. I really loved my Nissan Frontier, best vehicle I ever owned.


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## Swany

egregg57 said:


> Well I had a peek at mine yesterday afternoon. My unit is a 2005 31RQS. The underside was not nearly that bad. A few draping wires but not all that bad and not bad enough for me to take the bottom off and start cinching things. Good luck Swany


I am glad that your unit is good to go. Nothing left to do now but go camping! Have a good on.


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## Swany

Reverie said:


> Swany
> 
> My reply has to do with how you characterized the problem, not with your posting about the problem. I think what you brought forward was valid, I only point out that using heated phrases like "Screw Up" mischaracterizes the issue. The reason I hang out on this site is to learn about things like this but there are lots of camping forums out there that provide the same service. What keeps me coming back here is the civility of the place. I was just pointing out that you could have given us the same information without having to resort to the same tactics my 6-year old employs when he wants his way, which is using exaggeration.
> 
> Nick "Reverie" Robinson


I am sorry if I offended your sensibilities. Maybe I take the whole free speech thing too far. When things are way over the line of acceptability as is the workmanship on this OB it almost becomes personal. I can almost envision the assembly line workers saying "what can we do to mess with this customer" (heavy on the "almost). My Apologies.


----------



## h2oman

Swany said:


> Swany
> 
> My reply has to do with how you characterized the problem, not with your posting about the problem. I think what you brought forward was valid, I only point out that using heated phrases like "Screw Up" mischaracterizes the issue. The reason I hang out on this site is to learn about things like this but there are lots of camping forums out there that provide the same service. What keeps me coming back here is the civility of the place. I was just pointing out that you could have given us the same information without having to resort to the same tactics my 6-year old employs when he wants his way, which is using exaggeration.
> 
> Nick "Reverie" Robinson


I am sorry if I offended your sensibilities. Maybe I take the whole free speech thing too far. When things are way over the line of acceptability as is the workmanship on this OB it almost becomes personal. I can almost envision the assembly line workers saying "what can we do to mess with this customer" (heavy on the "almost). My Apologies.
[/quote]

You cannot take the issue of free speech too far. A P-O-S is a P-O-S and bad craftsmanship is bad craftmanship. Thank you for your posts on this issue Swany.


----------



## Swany

h2oman said:


> Swany
> 
> My reply has to do with how you characterized the problem, not with your posting about the problem. I think what you brought forward was valid, I only point out that using heated phrases like "Screw Up" mischaracterizes the issue. The reason I hang out on this site is to learn about things like this but there are lots of camping forums out there that provide the same service. What keeps me coming back here is the civility of the place. I was just pointing out that you could have given us the same information without having to resort to the same tactics my 6-year old employs when he wants his way, which is using exaggeration.
> 
> Nick "Reverie" Robinson


I am sorry if I offended your sensibilities. Maybe I take the whole free speech thing too far. When things are way over the line of acceptability as is the workmanship on this OB it almost becomes personal. I can almost envision the assembly line workers saying "what can we do to mess with this customer" (heavy on the "almost). My Apologies.
[/quote]

You cannot take the issue of free speech too far. A P-O-S is a P-O-S and bad craftsmanship is bad craftmanship. Thank you for your posts on this issue Swany.
[/quote]
Thanks for your comment







I guess we have heard from the left and the right!


----------



## NJMikeC

H20man,

No kidding brother! Lets see, loose wires and plumbing on a mobile vehicle would rub on crossmembers and wear holes in themselves. Geez that is a good thing and in 5 years an ever growing percentage of us is under our trailers like Swany.

Something else, Keystone or anybody cutting corners on stuff like this has absolutely nothing to do with the price you pay. Trailers are not commodities like oil, milk, etc. They are products and half of the pricing equation is , willingness to pay , perceived value and expected margin.

Fully 50% of trailer manufacturers could go out of business and the price would barely budge. Quality would also likely go up to serve an ever shrinking market place. Besides those companies going out of business doesn't put more money in your paycheck and you can live without trailers but you can't live without oil or milk. Case in point is the entire electronics industry. Some of us have to have the latest and greatest and pay to do just that. Others wait until the price goes down based on willingness to pay!

Instead of poo, pooing this issue with un-true statements about the market place this should be brought to Keystone or any other manufacturer and get addressed.


----------



## Swany

NJMikeC said:


> H20man,
> 
> No kidding brother! Lets see, loose wires and plumbing on a mobile vehicle would rub on crossmembers and wear holes in themselves. Geez that is a good thing and in 5 years an ever growing percentage of us is under our trailers like Swany.
> 
> Something else, Keystone or anybody cutting corners on stuff like this has absolutely nothing to do with the price you pay. Trailers are not commodities like oil, milk, etc. They are products and half of the pricing equation is , willingness to pay , perceived value and expected margin.
> 
> Fully 50% of trailer manufacturers could go out of business and the price would barely budge. Quality would also likely go up to serve an ever shrinking market place. Besides those companies going out of business doesn't put more money in your paycheck and you can live without trailers but you can't live without oil or milk. Case in point is the entire electronics industry. Some of us have to have the latest and greatest and pay to do just that. Others wait until the price goes down based on willingness to pay!
> 
> Instead of poo, pooing this issue with un-true statements about the market place this should be brought to Keystone or any other manufacturer and get addressed.


Amen! brother. Part of my reason for posting this that I believe Keystone drops in from time to time.


----------



## Calvin&Hobbes

I've dropped my pan once to fish a wire up through an exsisting wall. I noted quite a mess as well, but then again when my house was being built I noted that wires/ pipes/ vents were routed on the "path of least resistance". I can look at the wall that runs from the dining room into the livingroom, and note a beautiful finish on the sheetrock. But I know whats behind that wall, and it doesnt make me hate the house. Just the monthly payment.... and to think, 346 monthly payments to go and she's all ours!


----------



## Excursions R Us

Swany said:


> I can see where your coming from Swany. I am new to this TT ownership and the Outback is my first. I can tell just from my short time owning it that some things just aren't right but my question is, is there really a better manufacturer out there or are they all the same? I personally, after being to many RV shows have the feeling that they are all pretty much the same. I don't think any of them put alot of pride in their lower end models.


Well, one only has to look at the automobile industry to see where sloppy mfg gets you. Japanese TTs. If all RVs are built this sloppy then it can't be far off.
[/quote]

Swany,

You want quality, check out "Award" travel trailers but be prepared to dole out a lot more coin than what you would for an outback or an SOB.


----------



## Swany

Calvin&Hobbes said:


> I've dropped my pan once to fish a wire up through an exsisting wall. I noted quite a mess as well, but then again when my house was being built I noted that wires/ pipes/ vents were routed on the "path of least resistance". I can look at the wall that runs from the dining room into the livingroom, and note a beautiful finish on the sheetrock. But I know whats behind that wall, and it doesn't make me hate the house. Just the monthly payment.... and to think, 346 monthly payments to go and she's all ours!


You know as a kid I was required to spend what seemed like a lot of time in Sunday school and there are some things that stick in my mind! For example, there is a scripture that I used to hear quoted that I believe referred to people with "un christian" hearts. ie bad people. It used a "graveyard" annalogy. It said that the graves were are painted and decorated and beautiful on the outside but were full of "dead men's bones". I have to tell you that is playing over and over in my head as I lay on my back under my OB. Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?


----------



## h2oman

Amen Swany. How about just plain 'ol "love your neighbor as yourself". I wouldn't sell crap to another person and I don't think it unreasonable to expect quality craftsmanship for my hard earned dollars.


----------



## Brew

I think we as consumers are at fault here for letting the RV industry operate like this. I have read so many postings where people just make excuses as to the poor workmanship. Like â€œwell these trailers get towed over rough roads they are bond to fall apartâ€ or â€œwell they put them together cheap to make moneyâ€ or any other excuse they can think of. I think we as consumers have to start standing up to the industries and saying enough is enough. We are paying good money for these products and we want a good product in return. You would not stand for this in buying a new home or buying a new car so why are we letting it go on buying RVâ€™S. I mean when I buy a new car I would not be happy with the review mirror falling off or the door handle breaking or the tires blowing after only a few thousand miles or the pin striping or graphicsâ€™ pealing off so why should I accept a trailer that falls apart. The tires they put on these trailers are unbelievable If I bought a new house I would not accept water leaks and shoddy wiring and wall paper put up crooked and falling off so why should we accept that in a RV. You think about how much use a trailer really gets compared to your car or truck and do we expect our car or truck to last more then 10 years so then why shouldnâ€™t we expect a trailer to last a lot longer then that. We pay almost just as much for a trailer then our cars and trucks and really think about what goes in to building a car or truck and then think about what is in a RV. Now I think for that kind of money we should be getting a lot better product then we are. One of the problems is that there are far too many companies out there and really no regulations at least none like the Auto industries so they do get away with a lot of things. We as consumers have to step up to the plate and do something about it or it will just keep going the way it is. I have bought two new trailers now and can not believe the crappy workmanship that is put into these. How many of you open up the bottom of your cabinets and look down there? You would be surprised at how much junk has been left behind from the workers. These people do not clean up anything the sawdust and extra screws and chunks of cut wood and pieces or wiring are all still hidden down there... That would be just like buying a new car and finding metal filings and welding rods and nuts and bolts as will as paint and body filler dust all under the carpet. It just does not happen so why do we let it happen with our new RVâ€™S? The warranties that they put on these trailers are a joke if you think about it.2 years for most of it and really in the two years what it may get used for 2 months maybe a little more. So really they are giving you a 2 month warranty. I was at a RV show this spring and over heard a salesman telling a young couple about not to worry about the trailer that it has a warranty and they should expect to bring it back in at least 3 or 4 times to get work redone that they are not happy with and that is just normal for RVâ€™S. Any how I could go on forever on this one but I think most of us get the point. Go after the government to get this industry regulated some how. For those who can not produce a quality trailer well they should just close shop, the best thing would probably be just 3 or 4 major companies just like the auto industries and then they would be able to have more of the market place and could afford to produce a better quality trailer and still make money.

Bruce


----------



## Campforthenight

I like my outback and I will fix the Gilligan crap, I will install my mods my way the right way, then go







. 
It would be nice to just buy the shell with the basics and "add ur own" But, I if I could afford to do that I would build my own from scratch and and not worry about anything else. 
Free speech is a necessity







, I hope no one ever tries to shut me up.


----------



## PDX_Doug

No doubt that the quality of the Outbacks is not up to that of, say, an Provost Class 'A'. But then they do not cost high six figures or more either!

There are things I know I would like to see done better, but for what I paid for my Outback I still believe it is a heck of a bargin and a very high quality TT. I could go out and spend $25K on an econobox, and call that a lot of money, but just because it's a lot of money, doesn't mean I should expect it to be a Mercedes. Things like sloppy wiring runs, while very disturbing on an emotional level, may in fact not be all that bad. The things work, right? I would also suggest taking a look at the competition in the class (or even a class or two above), before condeming Keystone for their practices.

More importantly, I would like to ask people to moderate the tone of the debate. All the points that have been made here are valid, but it's all in the presentation folks. I'm not asking anybody to hold back on their opinions, but please be thoughtful how you express them.

Thanks!









Happy Trails,
Doug


----------



## Swany

PDX_Doug said:


> No doubt that the quality of the Outbacks is not up to that of, say, an Provost Class 'A'. But then they do not cost high six figures or more either!
> 
> There are things I know I would like to see done better, but for what I paid for my Outback I still believe it is a heck of a bargin and a very high quality TT. I could go out and spend $25K on an econobox, and call that a lot of money, but just because it's a lot of money, doesn't mean I should expect it to be a Mercedes. Things like sloppy wiring runs, while very disturbing on an emotional level, may in fact not be all that bad. The things work, right? I would also suggest taking a look at the competition in the class (or even a class or two above), before condeming Keystone for their practices.
> 
> More importantly, I would like to ask people to moderate the tone of the debate. All the points that have been made here are valid, but it's all in the presentation folks. I'm not asking anybody to hold back on their opinions, but please be thoughtful how you express them.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Happy Trails,
> Doug


Oh man, I did it again.......


----------



## PDX_Doug

Swany said:


> Oh man, I did it again.......


By no means, Swany!

I just get concerned when I see that Outbackers spirit we all love so much start to get lost in the moment.

*Post on!*

Happy Trails,
Doug


----------



## N7OQ

rob said:


> I can see where your coming from Swany. I am new to this TT ownership and the Outback is my first. I can tell just from my short time owning it that some things just aren't right but my question is, is there really a better manufacturer out there or are they all the same? I personally, after being to many RV shows have the feeling that they are all pretty much the same. I don't think any of them put alot of pride in their lower end models.


Well, one only has to look at the automobile industry to see where sloppy mfg gets you. Japanese TTs. If all RVs are built this sloppy then it can't be far off.
[/quote]

Swany,

You want quality, check out "Award" travel trailers but be prepared to dole out a lot more coin than what you would for an outback or an SOB.
[/quote]

Wouldn't a Award be a SOB??


----------



## ARzark

Swany, I know you and I have had a different viewpoint in the past based on each of us having an entirely different yet similar experience, but I have to tell you... I would be upset if I saw what you discovered under my Outback. What you are dealing with is simply unacceptable, shoddy workmanship. Whoever the tech who did that wiring AND whoever the supervisor or QC person on the line was that day should be fired!

I doubt that the powers to be at Keystone would find it acceptable either. Unfortunately, any company is only as good as their weakest link. In your case, it's the guy who did the wiring. On the bigger picture, one person doing sloppy substandard work doesn't mean that the entire company is a major screw up. They just had the wrong person working for them. Believe me, owning my own business, I have had that same person working for me... for a very short time. Then I dealt with it.

I think Keystone puts out a good product, for a good price and I have been very happy with the two Outbacks I have owned. I also agree with many others who have posted, the RV industry needs regulation! From service to construction of the units, the RV industry is and has expanded leaps and bounds, all while operating without consistent standards or guidelines. It has to change.

No doubt you will fix everything the way it should have been done in the first place. Once it's repaired to your satisfaction I certainly hope you will continue to enjoy your Outback for years to come.

There is one thing I have always appreciated while owning my own business... A customer who would bring to my attention an issue they are not happy with. Approached in the right tone, without having to feel I was being attacked or put on the defensive, I would do everything I can to make sure it never happened again. After all, if I don't know about it how could I take preventive measures in the future? I have a hunch Keystone is proud of their Outback product and would want to know if they had a bad apple on the line.

Just my .02 here, and I hope everything works out well for you.
Jeff


----------



## N7OQ

Swany said:


> I can see where your coming from Swany. I am new to this TT ownership and the Outback is my first. I can tell just from my short time owning it that some things just aren't right but my question is, is there really a better manufacturer out there or are they all the same? I personally, after being to many RV shows have the feeling that they are all pretty much the same. I don't think any of them put alot of pride in their lower end models.


Well, one only has to look at the automobile industry to see where sloppy mfg gets you. Japanese TTs. If all RVs are built this sloppy then it can't be far off.
[/quote]

Hmmm is this why Ford out sold Toyota this year?

I for one love the American made auto's in fact I like anything American made








[/quote]
Don't get me wrong, I have yet to buy my first off shore car. But the shoddy cars of the 70s invited the Japanese cars in just like the RV guys are doing now.
[/quote]

You are correct, but we the Americans are the ones who taught Japan how to make great product. The same process we taught the Japaneses our own manufacturing companies would not adopt. They were taught how to control their process to make quality where the U.S. used quality control to try to find the mistakes to control quality.

I took a class in total process control and was blown away how well it works and now a lot of American companies are starting to use it too. This is the process that turned around Harley Davidson's.

Here is another interesting link click here Now don't get me wrong I like Toyota's just don't like their price, when I bought my Tahoe (yes it is made in the U.S. I checked the vin# first) I looked at Toyota Sequoia's and they only had 3 on the lot and told me I could not take a test drive, said that everyone knows they are good so they don't do test drives anymore







My Tahoe with a lot of options was $28K and the Sequoia with similar options was $45K+ so it didn't take long to figure that one out. My good friend has a Tundra truck and I thing it is a great truck but I'm a cheap skate plus I would rather help a U.S. held company and the quality difference in now minimal between manufactures world wide.


----------



## NobleEagle

I have to agree with the original post. When we had our Outback delivered from Lakeshore, the delivery driver called us to tell us they were about 200 miles from the dealer and had a problem. Their delivery date would be delayed by about 2 days because of the weekend and I asked what the problem was. The driver proceeded to tell me while in transit, the underbelly apparently dropped down, some wires fell out and got cut while driving. After they called Lakeshore, they were authorized to bring it to a dealer local to where they were stopped to have it repaired. I was assured that the slide out wiring harness was replaced and the belly repaired and would be covered under warranty. 
I am not even close to being called "politically correct" and I don't candy coat things. But for the sake of this sensitive forum, I will try to describe my feelings at the time..... I was slightly upset. So much so that while on the phone, it took them about 30 minutes of phone calls to convince me to authorize the delivery. 
Once it got here I didn't know if my bike would fit in the garage. I had to go home to get the bike and try to fit it before signing off on the delivery. Reflecting on the problems......As long as it's covered and I have no problems (so far) I couldn't be happier with my purchase. Although, I wish there was some compensation for the frustration and delay in delivery. The memories we have since we got it are some of the best family times in our new family (married for less than 5 yrs). The best part is there are many more to come and this TT will be a big part of it. Remember, it stinks that the quality of work that we would do is not there. However, be glad you are able to work on it and fix it to your level of expectation if you wish. Be thankful for your health to be able to work on it, use it when you want, and not be hindered in any way to still enjoy it. Look at the times you have had with your family and what part the TT had in it, and consider the alternatives.


----------



## riverrat12000

I understand your pain. Our under belly blew off as my husband was on his way to louisana. Lucky for us ours was still under warranty. Made a quick call to Fun time RV in Cleburne where we bought it and they fixed it the next time he brought it home. look at it this way at least You get to use yours, had ours for over a year now and I've got to stay in ours only 4 times!!!!!!!!! Hubby always has it, using it for work.


----------



## Swany

riverrat12000 said:


> I understand your pain. Our under belly blew off as my husband was on his way to louisana. Lucky for us ours was still under warranty. Made a quick call to Fun time RV in Cleburne where we bought it and they fixed it the next time he brought it home. look at it this way at least You get to use yours, had ours for over a year now and I've got to stay in ours only 4 times!!!!!!!!! Hubby always has it, using it for work.


Why don't you go with him?


----------



## Rockn DZL

I had a 1993 Salem, a 2004 Thor Tahoe lite, and now a 2003 OB. They are all made like crap. I have heard nothing good about Thor. Do you think thier Quality control folks research any or our threads? Having said that, until I can afford another decimal point regarding the purchase price, I have to suck it up and fix whats wrong. I'm anoyed that America has no craftmanship left in it's production line, but until I can afford more, I'll just keep a really big tool box. I'm a huge Ford fan and they can't seem to back up thier rides either. I don't want to buy a Toyota, but they keep putting us to shame. Wonder if the RV industry could use a little off shore competition.

Best of luck to you all.


----------



## N7OQ

I'm anoyed that America has no craftmanship left in it's production line, but until I can afford more, I'll just keep a really big tool box. I'm a huge Ford fan and they can't seem to back up thier rides either. I don't want to buy a Toyota, but they keep putting us to shame. 
Best of luck to you all.
[/quote]

Not any more click


----------



## egregg57

I would like to thank Doug for the subtle nudge. And Swany for bringing something to light that is out-of-sight-out-of-mind. Most of us would have no reason to get underneath our units. It's important to know as much about your unit as possible.

We have a fragile forum in the way that we present, discuss and disagree with each other. There is a good deal of respect and restraint shown by a vast majority of people here. That is not a common thing especially over the internet. So we must try to hold those values close, in my opinion.

This sort of thing doesn't meet our expectations. Quite frankly its a bit embarrassing to see this kind of thing show up when we so highly tout our TT's and 5vers. But I would like to think that we can take this and politely insist that Keystone try a little harder to correct a less than desirable situation. In the grand scheme of things it would only take 5-10 minutes to at least secure loose runs of wires during production. And there are several opportunities to do this during assembly.

We do have people from Keystone, Keystone and SOB Dealers that look at this site. It is a great source of info for them.

So Keystone......make us proud......let's get this tightened up a bit. Wadda ya say?!

Eric


----------



## Carey

I have bought maybe 7-8 new japanese dirt bikes over the years.. These are all made in Japan.

The 1st thing you do is totally disassemble the entire bike and grease all joints and bearings. The bearings have very little grease from the factory. If you ride two years without first greasing all the bearings, you will find most have damge to the races, or rollers in the bearings. Some will need replaced.

On the dirt bike forums, we ask the same thing. Why do they do this. Basically if you plan on keeping a bike for a while and dont grease everything 1st, within 3-4 years you will have to spend 3-400 bucks replacing all the bearings.

Packing grease into a bearing isnt to hard.. Aparently it is for the MFR's.. They do not pack the bearings with grease, they simply swipe a lil grease on the bearing.

You japanese street bike guys, should tear them down also.. Its the same situation for them.. They are built with very little grease in the bearings.

I bought a used 2000 KX 80 a while back for my kid. Last year when I tore it down for maintenance, about every bearing fell apart when I took it apart. Most were just rusted dust where the rollers were.. 400 bucks later it is as good as new.

Guys quit thinking the Japanese have something on us..... THEY DONT!

Is this any different than our Outbacks?.... No.

Basically if you plan on keeping anything, plan on doing a partial teardown and doing things your own way.. Its just the way it is, this will never change. We have complained for many years to the Jap bike builders.. Nothing has changed. Nothing ever will.

So basically Swany, I agree with Doug, tdjohn and some others.. If it bothers you fix it.. For the masses its not a problem.

You should have added more bolts a long time ago, before the under belly sagged. Anyone could have decided 5 bolts on one side wasnt enough... You should have caught it sooner.

Sorry dude.... This is your own fault.

Carey


----------



## N7OQ

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> I have bought maybe 7-8 new japanese dirt bikes over the years.. These are all made in Japan.
> 
> The 1st thing you do is totally disassemble the entire bike and grease all joints and bearings. The bearings have very little grease from the factory. If you ride two years without first greasing all the bearings, you will find most have damge to the races, or rollers in the bearings. Some will need replaced.
> 
> On the dirt bike forums, we ask the same thing. Why do they do this. Basically if you plan on keeping a bike for a while and dont grease everything 1st, within 3-4 years you will have to spend 3-400 bucks replacing all the bearings.
> 
> Packing grease into a bearing isnt to hard.. Aparently it is for the MFR's.. They do not pack the bearings with grease, they simply swipe a lil grease on the bearing.
> 
> You japanese street bike guys, should tear them down also.. Its the same situation for them.. They are built with very little grease in the bearings.
> 
> I bought a used 2000 KX 80 a while back for my kid. Last year when I tore it down for maintenance, about every bearing fell apart when I took it apart. Most were just rusted dust where the rollers were.. 400 bucks later it is as good as new.
> 
> Guys quit thinking the Japanese have something on us..... THEY DONT!
> 
> Is this any different than our Outbacks?.... No.
> 
> Basically if you plan on keeping anything, plan on doing a partial teardown and doing things your own way.. Its just the way it is, this will never change. We have complained for many years to the Jap bike builders.. Nothing has changed. Nothing ever will.
> 
> So basically Swany, I agree with Doug, tdjohn and some others.. If it bothers you fix it.. For the masses its not a problem.
> 
> You should have added more bolts a long time ago, before the under belly sagged. Anyone could have decided 5 bolts on one side wasnt enough... You should have caught it sooner.
> 
> Sorry dude.... This is your own fault.
> 
> Carey


Well said


----------



## Insomniak

N7OQ said:


> I'm anoyed that America has no craftmanship left in it's production line, but until I can afford more, I'll just keep a really big tool box. I'm a huge Ford fan and they can't seem to back up thier rides either. I don't want to buy a Toyota, but they keep putting us to shame.
> Best of luck to you all.


Not any more click
[/quote]
Ford only beat Toyota in some segments (they captured five segments and Toyota got four). Overall, Toyota tied for #6 and Ford came in at #10.


----------



## BoaterDan

If I may add a bit of balance...

As far as the wire... I wanted a 31 foot trailer with quad bunks and a slide... and for $20,000. If part of that equation is wire hanging loose and a couple of extra feet thrown in the underbelly cover so be it. I really don't think it's realistic or fair to criticize Kestone on that particular point.

The plumbing routing is more of a concern. I've always been kind of suspicious of the "low point" drains anyway, but in your case you might as well not have them at all. Since I'm under my trailer anyway fixing the leaking freshwater tank I'll have to check out how mine are routed.

The underbelly cover is in a whole different ballpark IMO. That's utterly ridiculous. Clearly not made even to Keystone's standards, as all of us have testified. Your underbelly cover is obviously and inarguably defective. I'd be all over Keystone about that.

One question they'll obviously have, and it's probably a fair one, is how did you not notice that during the warranty period. I would think with so little fastening that thing would have started distorting almost immediately. No?


----------



## Swany

BoaterDan said:


> If I may add a bit of balance...
> 
> As far as the wire... I wanted a 31 foot trailer with quad bunks and a slide... and for $20,000. If part of that equation is wire hanging loose and a couple of extra feet thrown in the underbelly cover so be it. I really don't think it's realistic or fair to criticize Kestone on that particular point.
> 
> The plumbing routing is more of a concern. I've always been kind of suspicious of the "low point" drains anyway, but in your case you might as well not have them at all. Since I'm under my trailer anyway fixing the leaking freshwater tank I'll have to check out how mine are routed.
> 
> The underbelly cover is in a whole different ballpark IMO. That's utterly ridiculous. Clearly not made even to Keystone's standards, as all of us have testified. Your underbelly cover is obviously and inarguably defective. I'd be all over Keystone about that.
> 
> One question they'll obviously have, and it's probably a fair one, is how did you not notice that during the warranty period. I would think with so little fastening that thing would have started distorting almost immediately. No?


The unbolted side of it was covered up by the propane piping so it didn't show until it pulled out of the pinch between the frame and the piping. Would have had to take the piping down to see the problem. Whoever installed it most have figured it would stay pinched in there. Kind of a "that's good enough" thing. And upon delivery the dealership did a "repair" on it so there name's on it too. another poster suggested that all new equipment needs to be torn down for inspection because nobody builds properly, so I guess I better get out in the garage and tear my new Dodge pick up down. thanks for your comment


----------



## kjdj

Moosegut said:


> I see this as being akin to the fast food industry. When you go into a fast food restaurant, NEVER, NEVER look at what's going on in the back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's why I'm not pulling my underbelly down.


Too add, Do you know whats buried in you front or back yard? Do you know how much building debris is in your home air ducts? The crawl space ain't any better.

I added 2 2"X1/4"X48" aluminum strips to the underside to support the belly better. It's been good for 3 years.

Who said the water heater drains are low point drains??? Urban Myth?

The owners manual doesn't say anything about "Low Point" drains.
Why would you need antifreeze if the OB had a low point drain like a mountain cabin?

I'm going back to campin'.

Be safe everyone!


----------



## Calvin&Hobbes

I was thinking today about this thread...and I came up with this. Maybe, just maybe the under belly is *meant * to hide some of the "unmentionables", and Keystone pitches it as a "heated under belly"(which, as we all know, is questionable at best). No one would by the units if they were sold with a "belly pan to hide crap" line!

Bottom line, I still love the RQS and will be willing to put up with it. If and when I have to enter that netheregion, I'll deal with whatever comes my way.


----------



## Carey

Swany said:


> If I may add a bit of balance...
> 
> As far as the wire... I wanted a 31 foot trailer with quad bunks and a slide... and for $20,000. If part of that equation is wire hanging loose and a couple of extra feet thrown in the underbelly cover so be it. I really don't think it's realistic or fair to criticize Kestone on that particular point.
> 
> The plumbing routing is more of a concern. I've always been kind of suspicious of the "low point" drains anyway, but in your case you might as well not have them at all. Since I'm under my trailer anyway fixing the leaking freshwater tank I'll have to check out how mine are routed.
> 
> The underbelly cover is in a whole different ballpark IMO. That's utterly ridiculous. Clearly not made even to Keystone's standards, as all of us have testified. Your underbelly cover is obviously and inarguably defective. I'd be all over Keystone about that.
> 
> One question they'll obviously have, and it's probably a fair one, is how did you not notice that during the warranty period. I would think with so little fastening that thing would have started distorting almost immediately. No?


The unbolted side of it was covered up by the propane piping so it didn't show until it pulled out of the pinch between the frame and the piping. Would have had to take the piping down to see the problem. Whoever installed it most have figured it would stay pinched in there. Kind of a "that's good enough" thing. And upon delivery the dealership did a "repair" on it so there name's on it too. another poster suggested that all new equipment needs to be torn down for inspection because nobody builds properly, so I guess I better get out in the garage and tear my new Dodge pick up down. thanks for your comment
[/quote]

Not all, just some.

Everything has its quirks. Our Outbacks need to be gone over with a fine tooth comb when they are bought. Then watched closely for anything that you can get fixed while in warranty.. Everything about them is a possible problem. They are not made from machining, presses, spot welds, molds, and dies like autos are. They are built somewhat like a house, then asked to bounce down the highway. To make a quality unit, you'd need to spend many more dollars, as build time is huge money... I compare a camper to a mobile home, they are both built similarly. You get what you pay for. For the money, you cant beat these Outbacks. Do they have lots of quirks? Heck yes! What camper doesnt?

Motorcycles are notoriously made with very little grease in the bearings.. Thats the quirk of Japanese motorcycles. When dirtbikes are bought, many dealers will tell you to do a grease job. 90% of the people dont, then they complain a year or so later. Who should feel sorry for them?

When you buy any 2 stroke motorcycle, the owners manual tells you after break in(1 hour), to tear the engine down and replace the piston.. This is actually asked of you in the owners manual! Prolly 90% of people dont and then a year or so later the piston scuffs or comes apart.. Then they complain about that.. To be in warranty, you'd need to show reciept of a new piston. This pisses people off like crazy.. Most never read owners manuals. Who's fault?

New semi trucks generally have loose interior screws, causing rattles.. Door frame seals that leak, and windows that roll up and down hard. Engine seals that leak from the factory.. Oil in trannies and rear ends that is standard.. If you want the long warranty, you must replace that with synthetic from the start. These are all quirks of new semi trucks.

Everything made by humans will have defects.

I still feel this should have been caught under warranty.. The bottom panel has been hanging a long time I bet.

ps, swany.. My new dodge pickup has crappy speakers.. They are already popping. Why take this back for warranty, they will only put the same junk back in.. I am buying quality speakers and putting them in myself.. This is a quirk of a dodge pickup. I can complain, but will it change a thing? NO!

Carey


----------



## aplvlykat

I am getting in on this a little late but I agree that the wiring and pumbing could use a little more work when installed. As far as the under belly mine also sagged according to the weather the warmer it got the lower it went. I fixed this problem for around 8.00 dollars. I simply bought 4 piece of 1/2 emt conduit, flattened the ends and drilled and mounted them to the outside on the frame rail. This supported the belly and stopped the sagging. Kirk


----------



## BoaterDan

kjdj said:


> Who said the water heater drains are low point drains??? Urban Myth?
> 
> The owners manual doesn't say anything about "Low Point" drains.
> Why would you need antifreeze if the OB had a low point drain like a mountain cabin?


The water heater drain is something totally different. The two drains, one for hot line and one for cold, on the bottom of the trailer are well known by that name. Whether or not they live up to the name on any particular trailer is another matter. As I said, I've been suspicious all along.

Your point about what's in the walls of your house is well taken I think. I personally wouldn't make much fuss about the condition of the wiring under the belly cover.


----------



## monty

We are not just new to RVing, but are still shopping for our 1st (still looking forwarward to it being an Outback). This topic has been great. We're glad it was posted.

As far as the predelivery inspection, I will be lucky if I know enough things to look at/for to avoid trouble after taking delivery. Here again I'm glad to have learned about all of this.

Shoddy workmanship is a bad thing, even if you can't see it at first. In time it may cause downtime, anguish, expense. Will complaining initiate improvement? I expect it will only when enough problems result in drops in sales.

Reputation is another matter. Perceived poor quality also results in drops in sales. The lesson to be learned is to always do your best. Then do prices rise? Competition will decide that.

At any rate, this discussion has made me think: maybe I should go into the RV manufacturing business!

This has been greatly helpful. Thank you,


----------



## Swany

Pukeko said:


> We are not just new to RVing, but are still shopping for our 1st (still looking forwarward to it being an Outback). This topic has been great. We're glad it was posted.
> 
> As far as the predelivery inspection, I will be lucky if I know enough things to look at/for to avoid trouble after taking delivery. Here again I'm glad to have learned about all of this.
> 
> Shoddy workmanship is a bad thing, even if you can't see it at first. In time it may cause downtime, anguish, expense. Will complaining initiate improvement? I expect it will only when enough problems result in drops in sales.
> 
> Reputation is another matter. Perceived poor quality also results in drops in sales. The lesson to be learned is to always do your best. Then do prices rise? Competition will decide that.
> 
> At any rate, this discussion has made me think: maybe I should go into the RV manufacturing business!
> 
> This has been greatly helpful. Thank you,


Thanks you for your comments. My reason for posting it was to let people know what may be behind "curtain number two". Do I intend to get rid of my Outback? No. For better or worse it is mine and it is payed for and as I mentioned in my original post, the floor plan is perfect for us. That hasn't changed. Do I buy the "well if you want that kind of quality you will have to pay more" argument? Not even for a minute! Do I buy the "you should expect to have to fix things" argument? Only in a very minor way. If outback can afford to do things like this over they can afford to do them right the first time. Is every one of them like mine? Don't know but it sounds like a lot of them are. I have heard a lot of comments on my posting. It got a lot of attention! Do I still think that Outback is over the line on the poor job they did for my thousands? Absolutely way over!
Am I telling folks like you not to buy an Outback. Nope, just stating some facts, sharing pictures and my opinion. Happy camping! When I get this thing back together that's what I will be doing.


----------



## Camping Fan

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> You should have added more bolts a long time ago, before the under belly sagged. Anyone could have decided 5 bolts on one side wasnt enough... You should have caught it sooner.
> 
> Sorry dude.... This is your own fault.
> 
> Carey


I've been staying out of this discussion, but I've got to jump in here and respectfully disagree with this statement. This view point essentially blames the buyer for not finding and fixing something the seller/manufacturer didn't do properly. Whether we're talking RVs or homes or vehicles, etc. the buyer is not the one that builds the unit, the manufacturer is, and it's the manufacturers' responsibility to be sure that appropriate standards and processes are put in place to produce a quality product. The buyer shouldn't be expected to have to "rebuild" something to have it done right - that's what they pay the manufacturer for. In this case specifically, the factory should have found the problem of not enough bolts holding up the underbelly, and if not them, the dealer.


----------



## bill_pfaff

aplvlykat said:


> I fixed this problem for around 8.00 dollars. I simply bought 4 piece of 1/2 emt conduit, flattened the ends and drilled and mounted them to the outside on the frame rail. This supported the belly and stopped the sagging. Kirk


Sweet, thanks for the tip. Sounds a lot quicker, easier and better than drilling little holes.


----------



## bweiler

Camping Fan said:


> You should have added more bolts a long time ago, before the under belly sagged. Anyone could have decided 5 bolts on one side wasnt enough... You should have caught it sooner.
> 
> Sorry dude.... This is your own fault.
> 
> Carey


I've been staying out of this discussion, but I've got to jump in here and respectfully disagree with this statement. This view point essentially blames the buyer for not finding and fixing something the seller/manufacturer didn't do properly. Whether we're talking RVs or homes or vehicles, etc. the buyer is not the one that builds the unit, the manufacturer is, and it's the manufacturers' responsibility to be sure that appropriate standards and processes are put in place to produce a quality product. The buyer shouldn't be expected to have to "rebuild" something to have it done right - that's what they pay the manufacturer for. In this case specifically, the factory should have found the problem of not enough bolts holding up the underbelly, and if not them, the dealer.

[/quote]

After reading all of these threads, I am EVEN MORE appreciative of Outbackers.com...

Whether it is our camper, Carey's motorcycles, a TV - or many other consumer products....... it is really helpful to have websites that guide us thru all of the positives and negatives of the products- and the solutions so we can maximize the life of our product (or keep it from breaking). I do think that some of the Gilligan blunders are excessive - but thank goodness we all have a forum to highlight these and help others out.

Last week I was with a friend helping him buy a gently used Outback - and as he was ready to put his deposit down - I noticed a glaring problem - possible delamination on the front cap. Had it not been for Outbackers - we would have never caught it........

Thanks everyone and keep relaying your experiences! (next time a wire shorts I know where to start looking!)

Brett


----------



## NDJollyMon

This type of thread has come up several times over the past years...heck...I started some!

We here at OUTBACKERS do want to hear the good and the bad. We find a lot of problems/fixes here by posting them. We've found safety issues, fire hazards, etc...simply by posting the facts.

Thanks for posting your views Swany. I'm not completely thrilled with your selection of words in the topic title...but I'm sure they were fueled by emotion at the time.

One of my biggest problems with KEYSTONE is the lack of Quality Control. (as I've stated before) My OUTBACK was RIDDLED with problems when I got it. Most of which SHOULD have been caught at the plant, or at the dealer lot. I blame QC, and the builders themselves.
I'm not talking about 'mislabled black/gray tanks' here....I'm talking about my heat ducts being full of water on day 2 of ownership!

Here's what I've learned over the years here at OUTBACKERS, and as a owner of the trailer.

Keystone is not perfect...but they can be very good at handling issues/problems. They can also suck at it. (mostly, they are good)

SOB's have many of the same issues

Early OUTBACKS were the pioneers...and future OUTBACKS were improved because of them.

Some issues/problems simply SHOULD NOT OCCUR....like your underbelly sag. They've been making these long enough to work out the kinks...it's simply unacceptable.

My advice would be to contact the company with the problem. Even if they won't help, it could help/change future OUTBACKS if they know of the issue. They do/have read this forum...and many changes have been made for the better.

Overall, I still believe in KEYSTONE, and am a big fan of the OUTBACK line. Are they perfect? No...but they're pretty darn good!

Good luck, whatever you decide to do...and thanks for pointing this out.


----------



## Swany

NDJollyMon said:


> This type of thread has come up several times over the past years...heck...I started some!
> 
> We here at OUTBACKERS do want to hear the good and the bad. We find a lot of problems/fixes here by posting them. We've found safety issues, fire hazards, etc...simply by posting the facts.
> 
> Thanks for posting your views Swany. I'm not completely thrilled with your selection of words in the topic title...but I'm sure they were fueled by emotion at the time.
> 
> One of my biggest problems with KEYSTONE is the lack of Quality Control. (as I've stated before) My OUTBACK was RIDDLED with problems when I got it. Most of which SHOULD have been caught at the plant, or at the dealer lot. I blame QC, and the builders themselves.
> I'm not talking about 'mislabled black/gray tanks' here....I'm talking about my heat ducts being full of water on day 2 of ownership!
> 
> Here's what I've learned over the years here at OUTBACKERS, and as a owner of the trailer.
> 
> Keystone is not perfect...but they can be very good at handling issues/problems. They can also suck at it. (mostly, they are good)
> 
> SOB's have many of the same issues
> 
> Early OUTBACKS were the pioneers...and future OUTBACKS were improved because of them.
> 
> Some issues/problems simply SHOULD NOT OCCUR....like your underbelly sag. They've been making these long enough to work out the kinks...it's simply unacceptable.
> 
> My advice would be to contact the company with the problem. Even if they won't help, it could help/change future OUTBACKS if they know of the issue. They do/have read this forum...and many changes have been made for the better.
> 
> Overall, I still believe in KEYSTONE, and am a big fan of the OUTBACK line. Are they perfect? No...but they're pretty darn good!
> 
> Good luck, whatever you decide to do...and thanks for pointing this out.


A couple of things that have sorta slid past, perhaps due to my "delivery" (I'm communicating here, not running for office) are the fact that several bolts were left out of cross members (this is structural stuff) , the vapor barrier had holes in it the size of TX and the propane piping was routed between the frame and the axles allowing the axle articulation to wear (pinch) on the propane pipe! this kind of stuff is way over the line of what is acceptable practice. Maybe every rv is build the same way, I don't know I would have to take them all apart to know that. Maybe every other Keystone OB is perfect. I take that back, I have heard enough on this thread to know that what I found under mine is more typical than some of us would like to admit. Only my opinion now! (but I spent my entire career in equipment management. I have bought lots of equipment in my life and seen lots of poor mfg. What I seen under my OB is as bad as it gets.) Please don't take it personally it is not presented to belittle anybodies purchasing decision. I bought one too.


----------



## tdvffjohn

With regard to the propane line, there are 2 models that we know of that had a major problem with hitting the springs. The thread is pinned. This problem was brought up here as soon as someone had the problem. I, personally called the factory and spoke with the factory rep who came to the Niagra rally and informed him of what was being found. They knew nothing of it at the time and he immediately went to the factory foreman to fix it on the line.

What I have found out over time is most dealers just fix stuff and do not tell the factory about it. The dealer might see 5 TT's with a problem and just repair it. Keystone has made many a improvement from things they read here and they do read here.

John


----------



## Carey

Camping Fan said:


> I see this as being akin to the fast food industry. When you go into a fast food restaurant, NEVER, NEVER look at what's going on in the back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's why I'm not pulling my underbelly down.


Too add, Do you know whats buried in you front or back yard? Do you know how much building debris is in your home air ducts? The crawl space ain't any better.

I added 2 2"X1/4"X48" aluminum strips to the underside to support the belly better. It's been good for 3 years.

Who said the water heater drains are low point drains??? Urban Myth?

The owners manual doesn't say anything about "Low Point" drains.
Why would you need antifreeze if the OB had a low point drain like a mountain cabin?

I'm going back to campin'.

Be safe everyone!








[/quote]

Here is someone who noticed, took charge and repaired before it became an issue.. This is my point!

Carey


----------



## huntr70

WOW...........

I can't believe this thread got to 7 pages, and it still says the same thing on page 7 as page 1.......

Steve


----------



## prevish gang

huntr70 said:


> WOW...........
> 
> I can't believe this thread got to 7 pages, and it still says the same thing on page 7 as page 1.......
> 
> Steve


Yeah Steve, me either. It would seem that both sides are firmly planted and there will never be a compromise of ideas on this one.
Darlene


----------



## BoaterDan

I think it's more the case that there are two different points here that keep being repeated as if it's an argument when in fact they don't really contradict.

Point #1: Outbacks are a mid-grade trailer. The manufacturer has to cut some corners in quality and assembly procedures to keep the price where we want it. Throwing extra wire in the belly cavity and not putting the wire in looms under there (in cases where it isn't going to wear or bind) is an example of this.

Point #2: Some particular trailers have specific problems that go way over that. Some specific lines have the same problem repeatedly. How many of us have had to rewire our bathroom fans to spin the right way? Even that is more of an annoyance, but when there is gas lines being pinched by springs, or the underbelly cover falling off because it was barely fastened there is undoubtedly reason to be plenty upset with Keystone.

I'm usually a pretty good see-both-sides kind of guy, and this is no exception. I think complaining about #1 issues is silly - buy a higher end trailer if you're willing to spend the money and that stuff is important enough to you.

But bringing up potential safety or destruction issues is nothing but good for everybody, including Keystone.

Thanks Swany for sticking in there and convincing those of us that doubted at first - you got a messed up underbelly cover, no doubt.


----------



## jlukens

Unlike a bad Sopranos finale, let's whack this thread...

It's obviously an especially-bad manufacturing example in an industry of bad manufacturing practices -- we all know this (now). No excuses and one example that certainly should be taken up directly with Keystone and the dealer who sold the unit for remedy.

Period. Thanks for the heads-up. Can we all move on now?

Just pretend Gilligan has ordered a big basket of onion rings, and...

<cut to black>


----------



## johnp

SconnieJonny said:


> Unlike a bad Sopranos finale, let's whack this thread...
> 
> It's obviously an especially-bad manufacturing example in an industry of bad manufacturing practices -- we all know this (now). No excuses and one example that certainly should be taken up directly with Keystone and the dealer who sold the unit for remedy.
> 
> Period. Thanks for the heads-up. Can we all move on now?
> 
> Just pretend Gilligan has ordered a big basket of onion rings, and...
> 
> <cut to black>


I would ask for my money back on HBO before the three Outbacks I've had.

John


----------



## Swany

SconnieJonny said:


> I think it's more the case that there are two different points here that keep being repeated as if it's an argument when in fact they don't really contradict.
> 
> Point #1: Outbacks are a mid-grade trailer. The manufacturer has to cut some corners in quality and assembly procedures to keep the price where we want it. Throwing extra wire in the belly cavity and not putting the wire in looms under there (in cases where it isn't going to wear or bind) is an example of this.
> 
> Point #2: Some particular trailers have specific problems that go way over that. Some specific lines have the same problem repeatedly. How many of us have had to rewire our bathroom fans to spin the right way? Even that is more of an annoyance, but when there is gas lines being pinched by springs, or the underbelly cover falling off because it was barely fastened there is undoubtedly reason to be plenty upset with Keystone.
> 
> I'm usually a pretty good see-both-sides kind of guy, and this is no exception. I think complaining about #1 issues is silly - buy a higher end trailer if you're willing to spend the money and that stuff is important enough to you.
> 
> But bringing up potential safety or destruction issues is nothing but good for everybody, including Keystone.
> 
> Thanks Swany for sticking in there and convincing those of us that doubted at first - you got a messed up underbelly cover, no doubt.
> 
> You are welcome.


----------



## Cajuncountry

Swany, 
I would like to know if you have contacted Keystone about the problem and what they say about it. As a future Outback owner your phone call may help me not to have to deal with this problem. I can honestly say that I probably would never have though to look for this but now I know to look during inspection. Thanks for th information and lets all try to resolve the problem.


----------



## Chasn'Racin

We all agree that the RV business is a "shyster, snake oil salesman" business. The salesman kisses your rear end, promising to take care of any issues you have, making sure you have everything you need; you hook up for the first time, pull it off the lot and ...POOF!...now you're just another sucker with a substandard built trailer having to deal with the service section. 
Don't get me wrong, we love our 27RLS SOB! It has the best floor plan for us and we love it. Now...did I expect it to be perfect...no. I am working on several issues (none of which are going well) with Keystone and my dealer on getting them fixed. Heck, it took me 2 weeks to convince my dealer I was supposed to get couch pillows with my SOB.








We should expect certain problems with a mass production piece of equipment like these trailers. That being said, I agree with the original poster about his being much more sub-standard than one should expect. Heck, I have a crack in my sidewall above a window that was "factory repaired", yeah, right! Click Here That is just one of many things I have found with my SOB that makes me scratch my head on their version of QC.









We bought our SOB to spend time together out away from our normal lives and enjoy this land we live in. Do I enjoy fixing something I shouldn't have to fix on my own...no, but I do it anyway and move on. Pick your battles and enjoy your family and your life! If all else fails, go camping!







BOL

I know this post is long,sorry


----------



## NobleEagle

Chasn said:


> We all agree that the RV business is a "scheister, snake oil salesman" business. The salesman kisses your rear end, promising to take care of any issues you have, making sure you have everything you need; you hook up for the first time, pull it off the lot and ...POOF!...now you're just another sucker with a substandard built trailer having to deal with the service section.
> Don't get me wrong, we love our 27RLS SOB! It has the best floor plan for us and we love it. Now...did I expect it to be perfect...no. I am working on several issues (none of which are going well) with Keystone and my dealer on getting them fixed. Heck, it took me 2 weeks to convince my dealer I was supposed to get couch pillows with my SOB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We should expect certain problems with a mass production piece of equipment like these trailers. That being said, I agree with the original poster about his being much more sub-standard than one should expect. Heck, I have a crack in my sidewall above a window that was "factory repaired", yeah, right! That is just one of many things I have found with my SOB that makes me scratch my head on their version of QC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We bought our SOB to spend time together out away from our normal lives and enjoy this land we live in. Do I enjoy fixing something I shouldn't have to fix on my own...no, but I do it anyway and move on. Pick your battles and enjoy your family and your life! If all else fails, go camping!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BOL
> 
> I know this post is long,sorry


WOW!
I don't know which impresses me more....The fact that you used the word "scheister" or the fact you spelled it correctly. Thanks for the giggle.


----------



## Chasn'Racin

> WOW!
> I don't know which impresses me more....The fact that you used the word "scheister" or the fact you spelled it correctly. Thanks for the giggle.


Thanks for the roses, but I actually didn't.







See, you do learn something new every day!


----------



## NDJollyMon

Chasn said:


> WOW!
> I don't know which impresses me more....The fact that you used the word "scheister" or the fact you spelled it correctly. Thanks for the giggle.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the roses, but I actually didn't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See, you do learn something new every day!
Click to expand...

I thought SOB meant SOME OTHER BRAND???
I see an OUTBACK in your sig pic...
Someone clarify...I'm confused....


----------



## NobleEagle

Chasn said:


> WOW!
> I don't know which impresses me more....The fact that you used the word "scheister" or the fact you spelled it correctly. Thanks for the giggle.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the roses, but I actually didn't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See, you do learn something new every day!
Click to expand...

*Spelling variants:*
Common variants include schister, scheister, sheister, schyster, shister, shaista, shiester and schiester.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shyster


----------



## Swany

Cajuncountry said:


> Swany,
> I would like to know if you have contacted Keystone about the problem and what they say about it. As a future Outback owner your phone call may help me not to have to deal with this problem. I can honestly say that I probably would never have though to look for this but now I know to look during inspection. Thanks for th information and lets all try to resolve the problem.


I have not contacted Keystone>. I am out of warranty and I know where that will go. So I will just fix it and tell everybody I know. If Keystone wants to know they can read the thread.


----------



## mountainlady56

Swany said:


> I have not contacted Keystone>. I am out of warranty and I know where that will go. So I will just fix it and tell everybody I know. If Keystone wants to know they can read the thread.


Swany,
Just got back from Topsail Hill, and saw this post. First off, I was floored by the pics!! However, I kept thinking back to your having an 06 27RSDS........so did I!! It was built post-Katrina and EVERYTHING under the sun was wrong with it.........most aggravating, the leaks!! I finally got to the point that I felt I couldn't trust it, as it was built at a time when MANY defects were being found, and I travel alone, or with my youngest son.
So, I traded and bought an 07 31RQS, which I still have. Have had minor issues with the 31RQS, except for the "defective glue" that holds the roofing material on (roof started sagging/rippling at front and had to be restretched and reglued). I've found lots and lots of building debris in all nooks/crannies/floor vents, etc.
I know there's lots of complaints about delam, etc., but believe me, after the delam I saw on a Terry TT, at an RV park a few weeks ago, it CAN'T get any worse than that!!








As I mentioned on here, before, my mom worked in the mobile home business, and they build on an assembly line, and if one area has a bad day or shortage of workers, that day, you don't want a unit BUILT on that day. Unfortunately, the public has no way of knowing what's going on that day at the plant. A friend of mine, that was a retired plant manager, went back to work (for megabucks) at a local mfg. company that was building emergency housing for Katrina victims. He said you wouldn't BELIEVE the errors he saw!! I think, like me, you just bought your unit at the wrong time.
My thoughts on this is I WOULD call Keystone, as they KNOW they put out some crap around that time, slapping them together like stacks of hotcakes. Mine was nick-named the "leak machine" and I eventually got so aggravated with it that, even after all the kinks were fixed, I didn't trust it anymore. At any rate, a toll-free call wouldn't hurt, and they MAY, just out of trying to build positive public relations, offer to fix it at their expense. 
I'm glad you made this post, and I think people SHOULD feel free to post their problems, in a respectful manner, on here, as it's good to help others problem-solve, etc.
As for checking the bottom during a PDI?? I'm sorry, but WHO among us, has gotten down on the asphalt and crawled underneath their TT before purchasing it??? That's just quality that you EXPECT to be there, and Keystone represents that it IS!!
Good luck with your problems and take care!
Darlene


----------



## CamperAndy

kio63 said:


> hey dude this is not the place to complain . i had my share of problems. and some people feel for you and try to help but as you can see you have the EDITED BY MODERATOR who tell you to sell or stop crying. they must be shills for outback.every products have good and bad points. and you have a right to? it.half full or empty means jack you should be happy with what you pay for .watch i ll get ripprd for this .but the good people here out weigh the tough guy wise as_..good luck mygot fixed by the dealer but many myself thanks kenny


Kenny it is all in your tone. Keep it civil and it won't get anyones back up but keep calling people names any yes you will get exactly the response you think you do not deserve.


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## Swany

Swany said:


> OK, here were are, it is June 6, the day before my 65 birthday and you probably all know that I have been critical of Keystones product in the past and I am a "half empty" kind-a guy but I gotta tell ya.......... Keystone's manufacturing Process SUCKS! I have an 06 27 rsds. I bought it because of the floor plan. The floor plan is great! Hats off to Keystone on the floor plan! I decided today is the day that I address the "underbelly" problem on my TT. I went over to the storage facility to remove the "cardboard" under-pan because it was sagging clear down to the axles and looking really bad and I was afraid it was going to blow off going down the freeway. . Thank God that I have a 3/4 ton pickup, because that is what it takes to haul the tools and equipment it takes to repair the "factory doesn't give a s&$t stuff" on an Outback. To begin with the entire curb side of the belly pan was fastened on with 5 self tapping screws (5 in 27 feet!) which were placed within 1/4 inch of the edge of the plastic (1/4 " from the edge of PLASTIC). Guess what? they ripped out. But the factory, I'm sure, decided that these fasteners would be adequate because the propane pipe that travels down the same frame rail would probably hold it up. NOT! So, today I ripped it all out and I got my first real look at the manufacturing practices of Keystone. It is not a pretty site! In fact it is down right ugly! The wiring looks like one worker through several coils of wire from one end to a worker on the other. I can't even describe how bad it looks. The plumbing low point at the back end of the trailer? Passes under holding tanks and over cross members. You think it is the "low point"? Think again! It is undescribeably "I don't give a sh%t" bad! There are bolts left out of cross members. There are dead end wires dangling loose and if it weren't for the under pan (that I just threw in the garbage because it was falling off) there would many wires dragging behind the TT. Right now I'm so pissed that I can't even continue. I will take pictures and document the process and share later. I know that you all bought one too. I know that what I say here confronts your buying decision and it does mine. I know that I can make I right but I shouldn't have to. Keystone! YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF! My unit is out of warranty, so all I can do is tell everybody I know! I spent my day laying on my back under an Outback in a dirt yard and I will spend several more the same way! So, how was your day?


Oh, by-the-way did I mention that somebody at the factory poked a hole in my fresh water tank and just put a screw in the hole and sent it on down the line? Screwed again!


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## prevish gang

Swany said:


> OK, here were are, it is June 6, the day before my 65 birthday and you probably all know that I have been critical of Keystones product in the past and I am a "half empty" kind-a guy but I gotta tell ya.......... Keystone's manufacturing Process SUCKS! I have an 06 27 rsds. I bought it because of the floor plan. The floor plan is great! Hats off to Keystone on the floor plan! I decided today is the day that I address the "underbelly" problem on my TT. I went over to the storage facility to remove the "cardboard" under-pan because it was sagging clear down to the axles and looking really bad and I was afraid it was going to blow off going down the freeway. . Thank God that I have a 3/4 ton pickup, because that is what it takes to haul the tools and equipment it takes to repair the "factory doesn't give a s&$t stuff" on an Outback. To begin with the entire curb side of the belly pan was fastened on with 5 self tapping screws (5 in 27 feet!) which were placed within 1/4 inch of the edge of the plastic (1/4 " from the edge of PLASTIC). Guess what? they ripped out. But the factory, I'm sure, decided that these fasteners would be adequate because the propane pipe that travels down the same frame rail would probably hold it up. NOT! So, today I ripped it all out and I got my first real look at the manufacturing practices of Keystone. It is not a pretty site! In fact it is down right ugly! The wiring looks like one worker through several coils of wire from one end to a worker on the other. I can't even describe how bad it looks. The plumbing low point at the back end of the trailer? Passes under holding tanks and over cross members. You think it is the "low point"? Think again! It is undescribeably "I don't give a sh%t" bad! There are bolts left out of cross members. There are dead end wires dangling loose and if it weren't for the under pan (that I just threw in the garbage because it was falling off) there would many wires dragging behind the TT. Right now I'm so pissed that I can't even continue. I will take pictures and document the process and share later. I know that you all bought one too. I know that what I say here confronts your buying decision and it does mine. I know that I can make I right but I shouldn't have to. Keystone! YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF! My unit is out of warranty, so all I can do is tell everybody I know! I spent my day laying on my back under an Outback in a dirt yard and I will spend several more the same way! So, how was your day?


Oh, by-the-way did I mention that somebody at the factory poked a hole in my fresh water tank and just put a screw in the hole and sent it on down the line? Screwed again!








[/quote]

Literally!

Darlene


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## BoaterDan

Swany said:


> Oh, by-the-way did I mention that somebody at the factory poked a hole in my fresh water tank and just put a screw in the hole and sent it on down the line? Screwed again!


Is that leaking? I just repaired my tank and plastic welding is the way to go.


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