# New Outback In My Future



## dherndonnc (Nov 11, 2008)

Hi folks, i've been lurking here for the last week, as I am pretty sure i'm buying an Outback, it was just a matter of which one. I was looking at the Sydney model, 310bhs, but have concluded that it's a little more money, and a little more weight, than I want. I'll be towing with an 08 Tundra, 5.7L, 4X4. After reviewing my choices, and visiting a couple dealers to look at other campers as well (Sierra was really nice, but heavy), i've settled on the Outback 300BH). Nice compromise between weight and features. The loaded down 300BH will be around 8200 lbs and the Sydney model was over 10,000.

Based on recommendations here, i'll probably be buying the Equalizer WD hitch and a P3 brake controller. Those seem to be popular and highly regarded.

I've seen list prices between 30,000 and 32,000, I assume depending on whether they have the couple optional packages. I've been offered deals of around 24,000 for this camper. At first glance based on the MSRP range, it seems like a good deal, but do you think I could hold out for more?

Here's an interesting question too. I've noticed that some of the pictures of the 2009 300BH have a full graphic logo on the front of the camper....a mountain type scene of some sorts. And some just have a "swish", like the Nike logo. Any idea why some would be different?

Any other comments or ideas would be appreciated. I hope to be an Outbacker soon!

Dave.


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

Hi Dave









Welcome to Outbackers! 

Whereabouts are you from? You should check pricing at Holman Motors in Cincinatti or Lakeshore RV in Michigan. They both offer great prices on Outbacks. That will give you a better idea on what your model Outback should sell for before you go to a local dealer and get taken to the cleaners!
Heck, you'd probably get a better price from either one that would include the shipping to your front door









As far as the graphics, it might just be the new trend on the new models in place of the classic "swoosh"

Good luck with your search!


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## rdvholtwood (Sep 18, 2008)

*Welcome to the Outbackers! Glad You Found Us....









*Best of Luck on finding your trailer Great choice on hitch and brake controller. You will find lots of great people and advice here. The good news is that you have all winter to shop & be ready for the spring!


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## clarkely (Sep 15, 2008)

I can only speak on the 310BHS.............but got mine for under 24,000 plus tax.

I am not sure of the differences..........I know lakeshore and Holman were both 22,000 for a 310BHS...........it wasn't worth it for 1500 for me to go to lakeshore or Holman.........but i would think you could probably do a little better with whomever you are dealing with.

remember they need to eat to............and if they are close to you...you will be using their services in the future..........so you want to keep a good relationship.......but definitely look at Holman RV in Ohio & lakeshore in Michigan...........if you are not close you can at least use them for comparison purposes..........as long as your dealer makes it a wash (after time/travel/fuel) you will feel good that you got a FAIR deal.


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## Thor (Apr 7, 2004)

Dave

Welcome to Outbackers.com. Good luck with purchasing your new trailer. No matter which model you choose, I think you will be pleased. Outbacks are great trailers.

Thor


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

Welcome...Welcome...Welcome.

Glad you found us.


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## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

The 09's have different graphics. Run the weights on the payload on that Tundra.









-CC


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## dherndonnc (Nov 11, 2008)

skippershe said:


> Hi Dave
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks everyone for the warm welcome. I live in the boonies outside of Charlotte, NC.

Well, I did just as you suggested, and got a quote from one of the internet dealers. OMG.......the price was ridiculously low. So low i'd be embarrased to post it here (ok, 19.5 k). Now of course, i'm the skeptical type. They claim they can deliver it to my door for around 900 bucks, which still saves me around 3500 dollars from what supposedly is my local dealers "low price". Then there's the warranty issue...which they claim they handle for you.

Anyone else ever bought from a Holman or Lakeshore? There's gotta be a catch! 

OH, back to the "Swoosh". So the graphic picture on the front must be NEW. It is within the same model year it appears that they've moved to this full graphic on the front. How interesting. I was trying to read some significance into it.

Dave.


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## dherndonnc (Nov 11, 2008)

collinsfam_tx said:


> The 09's have different graphics. Run the weights on the payload on that Tundra.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, i've already been reading here how to get true weights on anything, you have to weigh it. Now the tongue weight on the camper is supposedly 685. I've heard two different stories...that's at dry weight, and that's at dry weight plus standard items like propane and batteries.....or is it at the Gross trailer weight? (max) This is a confusing business! <g>

I'm going to weight my truck itself as recommended here. The door already has two stickers on it which is confusing. One says "the total cargo capacity of this vehicle has been reduced by 380 pounds due to added accessories". 1550 is supposed to be the max cargo weight, so I assume i'm supposed to subtract 380 from that. HOWEVER, there's another sticker on the door that says the Payload is 1395. 1550-380 <> 1395 .... I don't know why they put two different readings there. So i'm going to weight it and subtract what I get from 7100 which is the GVWR.

Oh, and I had one dealer tell me that I shouldn't factor the hitch weight into the total cargo weight of the truck itself.........  I wonder if any dealer/salesperson has ever been sued for injuries or death caused by bad information given on tow capacities so they can sell an RV?

Dave.


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## Path4ground (Sep 14, 2008)

Welcome!!!!


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

dherndonnc said:


> Anyone else ever bought from a Holman or Lakeshore? There's gotta be a catch!


I bought from Holman. Price seemed tooo good to be true....

It was the easiest transaction ever. Everything was just as described, and even after the sale they stood behind the product. I didn't have warrantable repairs, but when I crumbled the skirting (gas stations are evil







), they worked with me to sell the replacement pieces I needed and even shipped them to my house (I'm sortof the do-it-yourself type).

I'd say the only catch is the Tow Vehicle. That's a LOT of trailer for a 1/2 ton truck. My 28RSDS had me right at the weight maximums, and slightly over for handling and control in case of an emergency








(The 1 ton fixed all of that







)


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## dherndonnc (Nov 11, 2008)

Nathan said:


> Anyone else ever bought from a Holman or Lakeshore? There's gotta be a catch!


I bought from Holman. Price seemed tooo good to be true....

It was the easiest transaction ever. Everything was just as described, and even after the sale they stood behind the product. I didn't have warrantable repairs, but when I crumbled the skirting (gas stations are evil







), they worked with me to sell the replacement pieces I needed and even shipped them to my house (I'm sortof the do-it-yourself type).

I'd say the only catch is the Tow Vehicle. That's a LOT of trailer for a 1/2 ton truck. My 28RSDS had me right at the weight maximums, and slightly over for handling and control in case of an emergency








(The 1 ton fixed all of that







)
[/quote]

Good to know. The guy on the other end of the email is working hard to put my mind at ease. He might just get my business.

Yes, I realize i'm at the upper limit on the towing, at least on the GVWR of the truck itself. The trailer towing capacity will leave me some room (10,300 - 8500 = 1800). I've heard all the arguments against 1/2 ton, and i've seen all the people that have success. Follow the rules and use common sense and one should be ok. I'm buying the camper to fit the truck. I use the truck for a lot more stuff and don't want a 250 or 350 size truck for normal use.

I also want to find the best trailer for our needs......separate bed area for mom and dad, kiddie area "bunkhouse" for the kids for rainy days. The 300BH is perfect for our needs.
Our typical camping trip is going to be probably no further than 3-4 hours away, mostly on flat land.

The only IFFY thing for me is what exactly is my tongue weight going to be. That's hard to tell, and hard to weigh. All I can go by is the brochure. 685. I weighed my truck last night too. here's a breakdown:

7100 GVWR
-5680 Truck weight, full of gas, otherwise empty. (CAT Scale)
=
1420 pounds of cargo on truck.
-500 or so pounds of people
-685 Tongue Weight of Trailer
=
235lbs of Cargo left for truck

One dealer tried to tell me that the tongue weight is not affected by how you load the trailer. I'm calling BS on that. If I load the front storage compartment full of heavy stuff instead of beach chairs, that's absolutely going to be adding weight to the tongue, isn't it?

So the ultimate question is, how do the manufacturers figure tongue weight? With the trailer empty? With a "guestimate" based on typical loading of the trailer? Is that with propane bottles filled? batteries in the front holder?

I assume the best strategy would be to keep any cargo weightI add personally, closer to the axles of the camper or slightly behind???

Dave.


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## Chabbie1 (Dec 3, 2006)

welcome to Outbackers!


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## jitch388 (Apr 19, 2008)

HOWDY YALL!! Great to have another tiger fan here. Enjoy the Tundra and the Outback.


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## clarkely (Sep 15, 2008)

dherndonnc said:


> Hi Dave
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks everyone for the warm welcome. I live in the boonies outside of Charlotte, NC.

Well, I did just as you suggested, and got a quote from one of the internet dealers. OMG.......the price was ridiculously low. So low i'd be embarrased to post it here (ok, 19.5 k). Now of course, i'm the skeptical type. They claim they can deliver it to my door for around 900 bucks, which still saves me around 3500 dollars from what supposedly is my local dealers "low price". Then there's the warranty issue...which they claim they handle for you.

Anyone else ever bought from a Holman or Lakeshore? There's gotta be a catch! 

OH, back to the "Swoosh". So the graphic picture on the front must be NEW. It is within the same model year it appears that they've moved to this full graphic on the front. How interesting. I was trying to read some significance into it.

Dave.
[/quote]

I would go to my local Dealer..................with what you want to spend..............Personally, i like to keep it Local if I can..........If they can sell it to you for 1500 more......21000 then you are with in 5-600 bucks of the others............My feeling is if my local dealer can get with in 1000 bucks..........then it is worth it buying local.......as you will have someone local to deal with........provided they are a stable company and will survive the economy.........


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## rdvholtwood (Sep 18, 2008)

dherndonnc said:


> Anyone else ever bought from a Holman or Lakeshore? There's gotta be a catch!


I bought from Holman. Price seemed tooo good to be true....

It was the easiest transaction ever. Everything was just as described, and even after the sale they stood behind the product. I didn't have warrantable repairs, but when I crumbled the skirting (gas stations are evil







), they worked with me to sell the replacement pieces I needed and even shipped them to my house (I'm sortof the do-it-yourself type).

I'd say the only catch is the Tow Vehicle. That's a LOT of trailer for a 1/2 ton truck. My 28RSDS had me right at the weight maximums, and slightly over for handling and control in case of an emergency








(The 1 ton fixed all of that







)
[/quote]

Good to know. The guy on the other end of the email is working hard to put my mind at ease. He might just get my business.

Yes, I realize i'm at the upper limit on the towing, at least on the GVWR of the truck itself. The trailer towing capacity will leave me some room (10,300 - 8500 = 1800). I've heard all the arguments against 1/2 ton, and i've seen all the people that have success. Follow the rules and use common sense and one should be ok. I'm buying the camper to fit the truck. I use the truck for a lot more stuff and don't want a 250 or 350 size truck for normal use.

I also want to find the best trailer for our needs......separate bed area for mom and dad, kiddie area "bunkhouse" for the kids for rainy days. The 300BH is perfect for our needs.
Our typical camping trip is going to be probably no further than 3-4 hours away, mostly on flat land.

The only IFFY thing for me is what exactly is my tongue weight going to be. That's hard to tell, and hard to weigh. All I can go by is the brochure. 685. I weighed my truck last night too. here's a breakdown:

7100 GVWR
-5680 Truck weight, full of gas, otherwise empty. (CAT Scale)
=
1420 pounds of cargo on truck.
-500 or so pounds of people
-685 Tongue Weight of Trailer
=
235lbs of Cargo left for truck

One dealer tried to tell me that the tongue weight is not affected by how you load the trailer. I'm calling BS on that. If I load the front storage compartment full of heavy stuff instead of beach chairs, that's absolutely going to be adding weight to the tongue, isn't it?

*So the ultimate question is, how do the manufacturers figure tongue weight? With the trailer empty? With a "guestimate" based on typical loading of the trailer? Is that with propane bottles filled? batteries in the front holder?

I assume the best strategy would be to keep any cargo weightI add personally, closer to the axles of the camper or slightly behind???

*Dave.
[/quote]

Hi Dave, I am by far no expert, on tongue weight - However, the internet provides a lot of information that you can gather - and discern - as to its meaning. From what I understand, as I learn myself, tongue weight is determined by placing the weight of the tongue on a scale. The actual weight should be, according to what I have read, approximately 10-15% of overall trailer weight. Its important, I believe because, having not enough could lead to sway.

As far as cargo - as long its within the trailers weight limits - I believe it should be more forward than behind the axles.


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## dherndonnc (Nov 11, 2008)

[/quote]

Hi Dave, I am by far no expert, on tongue weight - However, the internet provides a lot of information that you can gather - and discern - as to its meaning. From what I understand, as I learn myself, tongue weight is determined by placing the weight of the tongue on a scale. The actual weight should be, according to what I have read, approximately 10-15% of overall trailer weight. Its important, I believe because, having not enough could lead to sway.

As far as cargo - as long its within the trailers weight limits - I believe it should be more forward than behind the axles.
[/quote]

It just seems to me that any weight put in front of the trailer axles is going to add to tongue weight........the same weight moved closer to the front would add (proportionally?) more weight on the tongue.

That's why I can't get my head around how Keystone throws out a "tongue weight" figure in their specs. How can they other than it's based on empty (dry) weight! It has to be!

So then your tongue weight is directly driven by how you load the trailer (and of course, how much you add).

It's interesting. I'm still looking around at other models because this is nagging me. However, I see what appears to be much smaller trailers still with significant tongue weight...and not significantly lower than the 300BH which is my new "bar".

I'm so confused.....  Someone should write a book......

Dave.


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

dherndonnc said:


> Good to know. The guy on the other end of the email is working hard to put my mind at ease. He might just get my business.
> 
> Yes, I realize i'm at the upper limit on the towing, at least on the GVWR of the truck itself. The trailer towing capacity will leave me some room (10,300 - 8500 = 1800). I've heard all the arguments against 1/2 ton, and i've seen all the people that have success. Follow the rules and use common sense and one should be ok. I'm buying the camper to fit the truck. I use the truck for a lot more stuff and don't want a 250 or 350 size truck for normal use.
> 
> ...


Tounge weight is DEFINETLY affected by loading. You start with that 685lb number. Then add full propane tanks and batteries (almost completely additive due to the location) and then any gear will add. I think the 28RSDS was a 600lb quoted tounge weight and it was 1000+ when loaded for a long trip.









Perhaps someone with that model can comment on loaded weight. However, using the 10-15% rule for TW, an 8300 lb camper should have a 830-1250 lb tounge weight. Personally, based on my experience, I'd go for the higher number to be conservative(7500 lb 28RSDS would be 750-1125 lbs and I would guess I was right near that top end).


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## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

Our 23RS is closer to 1000lbs tongue weight once we are loaded and rolling down the road. If you are buying the the camper to fit the truck then why buy at or very near the maximum limit? We recently got an upgrade to our 1/2 ton that makes it safer going down the road. After the trip we are going to take over this Thanksgiving, ill feel better about reporting on it. Without it, I absolutely feel that our older F150 was at its limits with the 23RS. With it - it feels completely different and more capable (safe). Your Tundra is a heckuva lot more truck than my 1/2 tonner. Big son of a gun too. I had my truck up next to some new 1/2 tonners including an '09 F150 and the 'Yota and mine looks like a mid-size truck in comparison lol. In some respects, I think your truck is durn near a 3/4 tonner - but not all such as in the payload area. I am really looking forward to any improvements they might make to it as they have a great history of introducing a vehicle into a market then improving it steadily until it is a dominant seller.

-CC


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## dherndonnc (Nov 11, 2008)

collinsfam_tx said:


> Our 23RS is closer to 1000lbs tongue weight once we are loaded and rolling down the road. If you are buying the the camper to fit the truck then why buy at or very near the maximum limit? We recently got an upgrade to our 1/2 ton that makes it safer going down the road. After the trip we are going to take over this Thanksgiving, ill feel better about reporting on it. Without it, I absolutely feel that our older F150 was at its limits with the 23RS. With it - it feels completely different and more capable (safe). Your Tundra is a heckuva lot more truck than my 1/2 tonner. Big son of a gun too. I had my truck up next to some new 1/2 tonners including an '09 F150 and the 'Yota and mine looks like a mid-size truck in comparison lol. In some respects, I think your truck is durn near a 3/4 tonner - but not all such as in the payload area. I am really looking forward to any improvements they might make to it as they have a great history of introducing a vehicle into a market then improving it steadily until it is a dominant seller.
> 
> -CC


Hi Curtis, well, really not trying to flame you, but I could ask the same of you? So you bought an F150 and then later realized it wasn't going to pull your 23RS safely? What could you have possibly done to "Upgrade" it? How did you know where the weak link in the myriads of specs on the truck was? Brakes? Tranny? Suspension? Frame? Tires? Etc?

Here's what really makes this maddening. I started looking around saying "ok, then what COULD I tow" and i'm starting to lose faith in the mathematics <smile>. Even if I picked the 210RS, which is a 23 foot trailer, dry weight of 4845 with capacity of 2705, going "by the book" i'm still overloaded.....which is just silly based on what MANY people safely tow with their 1/2 ton trucks. The total GVWR of the 210RS loaded up to the max is 7550. Take 12% of that for "suggested tongue weight" and you are at 905 pushing down on the hitch. Add 500 pounds of people to the truck, and boom, i'm over the limit even on this very small trailer.

So something just doesn't make sense with the "numbers by the book" based on reality.

Dave. (too analytical for his own good.......  )


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

dherndonnc said:


> Hi Curtis, well, really not trying to flame you, but I could ask the same of you? So you bought an F150 and then later realized it wasn't going to pull your 23RS safely? What could you have possibly done to "Upgrade" it? How did you know where the weak link in the myriads of specs on the truck was? Brakes? Tranny? Suspension? Frame? Tires? Etc?
> 
> Here's what really makes this maddening. I started looking around saying "ok, then what COULD I tow" and i'm starting to lose faith in the mathematics <smile>. Even if I picked the 210RS, which is a 23 foot trailer, dry weight of 4845 with capacity of 2705, going "by the book" i'm still overloaded.....which is just silly based on what MANY people safely tow with their 1/2 ton trucks. The total GVWR of the 210RS loaded up to the max is 7550. Take 12% of that for "suggested tongue weight" and you are at 905 pushing down on the hitch. Add 500 pounds of people to the truck, and boom, i'm over the limit even on this very small trailer.
> 
> ...


Dave, I'll leave the hitch explination to CC, but don't say you're too analytical for your own good!









2 comments to address your frusteration:

1. You have now done the math and learned the 1/2 ton number game. Sure, the base equipped truck with a 150 lb driver can tow 10,000 lbs, but we all know that is not reality, it's a numbers game for bragging rights. All manufacturer's play it.

2. I bet a large majority of campers run with overloaded vehicles. They don't check the weights and trust the salesman.








Out of those, a majority do just fine. They run safely and sucessfully back and forth to their campsites and never have a problem. Sure, the longevity of their vehicle is compromised, but it still lasts longer than they are willing to keep it so it doesn't affect them. Of course this also means that a small percentage have a bad experience, and if they are lucky, only sheet metal and fiberglass gets destroyed.

There are no guarentees in life, but if you have ever had a trailer take control of your truck (I have when I had a 1/2 ton), you quickly get some religion, and many of us follow that up with a bigger truck. Again, we're not telling you what you should do, we simply care about the safety of our members and are trying to warn you of a possible risk here. Some members are towing even bigger TT's with the Tundra and if you choose to do it, you may have good success. However, we would be remiss not to warn of the weights and our experiences prior to you making the plunge of a new OB and then regretting it.

Keep posting and asking questions and then make the decision you are comfortable with.


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## rdvholtwood (Sep 18, 2008)

Nathan said:


> Hi Curtis, well, really not trying to flame you, but I could ask the same of you? So you bought an F150 and then later realized it wasn't going to pull your 23RS safely? What could you have possibly done to "Upgrade" it? How did you know where the weak link in the myriads of specs on the truck was? Brakes? Tranny? Suspension? Frame? Tires? Etc?
> 
> Here's what really makes this maddening. I started looking around saying "ok, then what COULD I tow" and i'm starting to lose faith in the mathematics <smile>. Even if I picked the 210RS, which is a 23 foot trailer, dry weight of 4845 with capacity of 2705, going "by the book" i'm still overloaded.....which is just silly based on what MANY people safely tow with their 1/2 ton trucks. The total GVWR of the 210RS loaded up to the max is 7550. Take 12% of that for "suggested tongue weight" and you are at 905 pushing down on the hitch. Add 500 pounds of people to the truck, and boom, i'm over the limit even on this very small trailer.
> 
> ...


Dave, I'll leave the hitch explination to CC, but don't say you're too analytical for your own good!









2 comments to address your frusteration:

1. You have now done the math and learned the 1/2 ton number game. Sure, the base equipped truck with a 150 lb driver can tow 10,000 lbs, but we all know that is not reality, it's a numbers game for bragging rights. All manufacturer's play it.

2. I bet a large majority of campers run with overloaded vehicles. They don't check the weights and trust the salesman.








Out of those, a majority do just fine. They run safely and sucessfully back and forth to their campsites and never have a problem. Sure, the longevity of their vehicle is compromised, but it still lasts longer than they are willing to keep it so it doesn't affect them. Of course this also means that a small percentage have a bad experience, and if they are lucky, only sheet metal and fiberglass gets destroyed.

There are no guarentees in life, but if you have ever had a trailer take control of your truck (I have when I had a 1/2 ton), you quickly get some religion, and many of us follow that up with a bigger truck. Again, we're not telling you what you should do, we simply care about the safety of our members and are trying to warn you of a possible risk here. Some members are towing even bigger TT's with the Tundra and if you choose to do it, you may have good success. However, we would be remiss not to warn of the weights and our experiences prior to you making the plunge of a new OB and then regretting it.

Keep posting and asking questions and then make the decision you are comfortable with.








[/quote]

Nathan - I agree with you 100% - *safety is the key*. I never had a to deal with sway or loosing control and hope I never have to. I know this sounds crazy, but, _we bought our TT first_ and now are shopping for our TV. From what I have read and researched, I am still going with a 3/4 ton!


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## dherndonnc (Nov 11, 2008)

Nathan said:


> Hi Curtis, well, really not trying to flame you, but I could ask the same of you? So you bought an F150 and then later realized it wasn't going to pull your 23RS safely? What could you have possibly done to "Upgrade" it? How did you know where the weak link in the myriads of specs on the truck was? Brakes? Tranny? Suspension? Frame? Tires? Etc?
> 
> Here's what really makes this maddening. I started looking around saying "ok, then what COULD I tow" and i'm starting to lose faith in the mathematics <smile>. Even if I picked the 210RS, which is a 23 foot trailer, dry weight of 4845 with capacity of 2705, going "by the book" i'm still overloaded.....which is just silly based on what MANY people safely tow with their 1/2 ton trucks. The total GVWR of the 210RS loaded up to the max is 7550. Take 12% of that for "suggested tongue weight" and you are at 905 pushing down on the hitch. Add 500 pounds of people to the truck, and boom, i'm over the limit even on this very small trailer.
> 
> ...


Dave, I'll leave the hitch explination to CC, but don't say you're too analytical for your own good!









2 comments to address your frusteration:

1. You have now done the math and learned the 1/2 ton number game. Sure, the base equipped truck with a 150 lb driver can tow 10,000 lbs, but we all know that is not reality, it's a numbers game for bragging rights. All manufacturer's play it.

2. I bet a large majority of campers run with overloaded vehicles. They don't check the weights and trust the salesman.








Out of those, a majority do just fine. They run safely and sucessfully back and forth to their campsites and never have a problem. Sure, the longevity of their vehicle is compromised, but it still lasts longer than they are willing to keep it so it doesn't affect them. Of course this also means that a small percentage have a bad experience, and if they are lucky, only sheet metal and fiberglass gets destroyed.

There are no guarentees in life, but if you have ever had a trailer take control of your truck (I have when I had a 1/2 ton), you quickly get some religion, and many of us follow that up with a bigger truck. Again, we're not telling you what you should do, we simply care about the safety of our members and are trying to warn you of a possible risk here. Some members are towing even bigger TT's with the Tundra and if you choose to do it, you may have good success. However, we would be remiss not to warn of the weights and our experiences prior to you making the plunge of a new OB and then regretting it.

Keep posting and asking questions and then make the decision you are comfortable with.








[/quote]

This pretty much sums it up great. Since as noted by others, I do believe my Tundra is a "higher end" 1/2 ton truck based on it's specs, and since i'm a cautious/careful driver in the first place, and since I probably won't drive more than a few hours to a destination anyway, I think i'll probably stick with the 300BH. I do think downsizing from the Sydney 310 model was the right thing, but again, with above rules applied, I could probably pull that up the road too.....as others have successfully with the Tundra......

And the right equipment and loading will help. The Equalizer with the P3 controller will be good investments.

So that's where i stand.....for now, I should run down and sign the paperwork now. 

Thanks for the offer to throw more confused posts at you all! <smile>

Dave.


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## rdvholtwood (Sep 18, 2008)

If you haven't purchased your brake controller - you may want to check this out...click here.


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## garyb1st (Dec 6, 2007)

Welcome to Outbackers. Looks like you got some good info and your well on your way to becoming an OB Owner. We got ours this past June and unlike you, didn't do enough homework on weights etc. Although we have an F250 and have more than adequate pulling power for our unit, a 28KRS, I'm still concerned about the hitch. We have a Reese with a friction sway bar. I've read that with a trailer greater than 25 feet in length, it's best to have the dual cam set up. Hopefully because we have the longest wheel base available on an F250, we have a margin of safety. At least that's what I've read.

So why did the dealer give us the single arm friction sway bar? Don't know. When I ask the salesman, I get one answer. When I ask someone else, I get another. I bought the trailer with the hitch included in the price. When I bought the trailer, I didn't know about anti sway so didn't ask. Since it was a package deal, the dealer wasn't going to put on the best hitch. That would have made him more money, but since the deal included the hitch, it would only have reduced his profit. No brainer from the dealers perspective.

I think you already figured out that the salesman is the last one to ask about safety. With respect to your initial question on the tongue weight, your gut was right. It's a bit like a teeter toter. Physics pure and simple. Well maybe not so simple, but not rocket science.


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## dherndonnc (Nov 11, 2008)

garyb1st said:


> Welcome to Outbackers. Looks like you got some good info and your well on your way to becoming an OB Owner. We got ours this past June and unlike you, didn't do enough homework on weights etc. Although we have an F250 and have more than adequate pulling power for our unit, a 28KRS, I'm still concerned about the hitch. We have a Reese with a friction sway bar. I've read that with a trailer greater than 25 feet in length, it's best to have the dual cam set up. Hopefully because we have the longest wheel base available on an F250, we have a margin of safety. At least that's what I've read.
> 
> So why did the dealer give us the single arm friction sway bar? Don't know. When I ask the salesman, I get one answer. When I ask someone else, I get another. I bought the trailer with the hitch included in the price. When I bought the trailer, I didn't know about anti sway so didn't ask. Since it was a package deal, the dealer wasn't going to put on the best hitch. That would have made him more money, but since the deal included the hitch, it would only have reduced his profit. No brainer from the dealers perspective.
> 
> I think you already figured out that the salesman is the last one to ask about safety. With respect to your initial question on the tongue weight, your gut was right. It's a bit like a teeter toter. Physics pure and simple. Well maybe not so simple, but not rocket science.


Yeah, at this point, car salesmen are starting to look good! They've been nice enough folks to deal with, but not good on information.....thank goodness for you guys here. It's helped a ton.

Here's one more question .... (am I over my quota? <g>)

My new Tundra has Bridgestone Dueler H/T, 684-II and the size is p255/70R18. The stated "capacity" on the tires is 2459 pounds at 44 PSI.

How good are these tires for towing? They are on-road, light duty truck tires, my guess designed for a smooth ride. I hope they will be good enough until I need new ones then I can focus on a better towing tire.

Dave.


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## clarkely (Sep 15, 2008)

The new Vehicles, generally speaking, come with a softer sidewall tire to allow for some absorption of road conditions and Help create the smoother ride.

It is, generally preferred, to have a stiffer/firmer sidewall tire when towing. it helps to take that "Flex Out" and in urn helps to fight the inherent sway characteristics of a ball mount hitch. There are many things that help contribute to smoother trailering.....it comes down to what you want and what you are (or your DW) is comfortable with in relationship to your TV & TT.

To make me safer and easy towing......I upgraded to a stiffer sidewall tire, added airbags, and a ProPride Hitch........The DW is now very comfortable and doesn't worry as much on long Drives.


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## garyb1st (Dec 6, 2007)

Dave, good questions. No quota I'm aware of.









There are a number of Tundra owners on this site that can probably answer your question. If they don't see this thread you can always start one specific to Tundras. Personally I like the tundra and if they ever make a 3/4 ton I'd be looking real hard at them.

While we're on the subject of tires, you may want to do a little research on trailer tires. Specifically the ones that come on many Outbacks. Mine for example are 14 inch rated at 1750 each. That adds up to 7,000 for the four. It's less than the combined weight of the unit and carrying capacity which is 7,550. But when you subtract tongue weight the total drops to under 7,000. Eventually I'm going to upgrade to 15 inch rims and tires. I'm not planning on taking more 'stuff' but like the added margin of safety. Also, the larger tires may improve ride a bit. The other consideration with smaller tires is the speed rating. As I recall, mine are rated at 65 MPH. If I don't watch the speedo, my F250 will run up to 75 pretty quickly. With the larger tires, I can cruise at 70 if necessary.


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## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

dherndonnc said:


> Our 23RS is closer to 1000lbs tongue weight once we are loaded and rolling down the road. If you are buying the the camper to fit the truck then why buy at or very near the maximum limit? We recently got an upgrade to our 1/2 ton that makes it safer going down the road. After the trip we are going to take over this Thanksgiving, ill feel better about reporting on it. Without it, I absolutely feel that our older F150 was at its limits with the 23RS. With it - it feels completely different and more capable (safe). Your Tundra is a heckuva lot more truck than my 1/2 tonner. Big son of a gun too. I had my truck up next to some new 1/2 tonners including an '09 F150 and the 'Yota and mine looks like a mid-size truck in comparison lol. In some respects, I think your truck is durn near a 3/4 tonner - but not all such as in the payload area. I am really looking forward to any improvements they might make to it as they have a great history of introducing a vehicle into a market then improving it steadily until it is a dominant seller.
> 
> -CC


Hi Curtis, well, really not trying to flame you, but I could ask the same of you? So you bought an F150 and then later realized it wasn't going to pull your 23RS safely? What could you have possibly done to "Upgrade" it? How did you know where the weak link in the myriads of specs on the truck was? Brakes? Tranny? Suspension? Frame? Tires? Etc?

Here's what really makes this maddening. I started looking around saying "ok, then what COULD I tow" and i'm starting to lose faith in the mathematics <smile>. Even if I picked the 210RS, which is a 23 foot trailer, dry weight of 4845 with capacity of 2705, going "by the book" i'm still overloaded.....which is just silly based on what MANY people safely tow with their 1/2 ton trucks. The total GVWR of the 210RS loaded up to the max is 7550. Take 12% of that for "suggested tongue weight" and you are at 905 pushing down on the hitch. Add 500 pounds of people to the truck, and boom, i'm over the limit even on this very small trailer.

So something just doesn't make sense with the "numbers by the book" based on reality.

Dave. (too analytical for his own good.......  )
[/quote]

Dave - I am not 100% sure what you mean by "ask the same of you" but I will try to answer. Just FYI I owned my F150 for many years prior to purchasing the 23RS. Some Outbackers here have suggested that staying around 20% margin of the vehicle's ratings is a good way to go. My 23RS is within that range. Even so, I still feel my TV is pushed to its limits on nearly every trip. There are alot of guys on there that pull much larger Outbacks (than mine) with similar y/m F150's that feel 100% safe doing so.

My F150 pulls my 23RS "ok" in most situations I tow in. In some, it lacks power which is a consistent gripe I have about it. I accept the possibility that my truck may be something of a "lemon". However, it might also just be the altitude we live at, 3,000ft, at coupled with the air quality typically measuring closer to 5,000ft. It might be those factors combined with the perpetual West Texas winds that seem blow against us all too often. The canyon climbs we take on nearly every trip are a part of that perception as well. I feel safe towing our camper. I also feel that my TV is lacking in some areas - mainly power and to a somewhat lesser extent, braking. I have said for a good while now that I believe that in the situations I often tow in, my F150 is pushed to its limits. I have some repair bills to prove some of it as well. I have been looking at used 3/4 ton TV's for some time now. When the right one comes along, it will sit in our garage. Just FYI, my wife and I agreed, going into this, that we would not tow our camper to the mountains or any place that would put similar kinds of stress on our truck. For example, We choose canyon climbs that are the easy ones - not the most scenic...unfortunately. We just had a suspicion that it would push our F150 too hard and we don't want to tear up our truck. We were pretty much right about that. For the most part, we have Outbackers to thank for setting us on the right road to many happy camping adventures. I am grateful to them for having done so.

To answer your questions:


> What could you have possibly done to "Upgrade" it?


I couldn't see throwing a bunch of money at a TV that already had 70k mi. on it when we started thinking about getting a camper. However, I added dual trans coolers and a gauge. Until recently I ran my rear tires at 45psi when towing. I also have another ugprade that I will talk more about after our trip this Thanksgiving. As I have previously said in other threads, I want to get three trips done prior to talking about it. The reason is that some results I am getting are to say the least, unexpected.



> How did you know where the weak link in the myriads of specs on the truck was?


Mainly F150online.com and Outbackers.com.

My DW and I were enamored with the larger units and when we took our uneducated looks at the numbers, my F150 could pull that 28RSDS we really wanted. However, Outbackers here educated me and I began to dig deeper. Just as you are. I had my truck weighed. I downloaded the tow calculator spreadsheet and ran numbers on numerous setups. Dealers had me convinced I could pull anything in the Outback line. I sure am glad I found this forum. Disappointed, we eventually settled on a 25RSS but after some time thinking about it, we decided to get something even smaller. Part of me still wishes we had got that 25RSS though, that floorplan is just sharp.

Good luck, I hope all that helped somehow.

-CC


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## dherndonnc (Nov 11, 2008)

collinsfam_tx said:


> Dave - I am not 100% sure what you mean by "ask the same of you" but I will try to answer. Just FYI I owned my F150 for many years prior to purchasing the 23RS. Some Outbackers here have suggested that staying around 20% margin of the vehicle's ratings is a good way to go. My 23RS is within that range. Even so, I still feel my TV is pushed to its limits on nearly every trip. There are alot of guys on there that pull much larger Outbacks (than mine) with similar y/m F150's that feel 100% safe doing so.
> 
> My F150 pulls my 23RS "ok" in most situations I tow in. In some, it lacks power which is a consistent gripe I have about it. I accept the possibility that my truck may be something of a "lemon". However, it might also just be the altitude we live at, 3,000ft, at coupled with the air quality typically measuring closer to 5,000ft. It might be those factors combined with the perpetual West Texas winds that seem blow against us all too often. The canyon climbs we take on nearly every trip are a part of that perception as well. I feel safe towing our camper. I also feel that my TV is lacking in some areas - mainly power and to a somewhat lesser extent, braking. I have said for a good while now that I believe that in the situations I often tow in, my F150 is pushed to its limits. I have some repair bills to prove some of it as well. I have been looking at used 3/4 ton TV's for some time now. When the right one comes along, it will sit in our garage. Just FYI, my wife and I agreed, going into this, that we would not tow our camper to the mountains or any place that would put similar kinds of stress on our truck. For example, We choose canyon climbs that are the easy ones - not the most scenic...unfortunately. We just had a suspicion that it would push our F150 too hard and we don't want to tear up our truck. We were pretty much right about that. For the most part, we have Outbackers to thank for setting us on the right road to many happy camping adventures. I am grateful to them for having done so.
> 
> ...


Curtis, just when you said this: "If you are buying the the camper to fit the truck then why buy at or very near the maximum limit?" It seemed you did the same thing buying a camper that was at the limits of your F-150.......so I was wondering why you worded it like that. I was here asking these questions so I wouldn't get too close to that limit. I think i've convinced myself that i'm close, but not too close. And unless I turn stupid while driving, I will be just fine.

Yes, your comments and everyone's have helped me put it all in perspective. I'm going to proceed with the 300BH purchase. See you at a campground soon i hope! (and I would love to come to West Texas and do some star-gazing.......great dark skies out there!)

Dave.


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## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

dherndonnc said:


> Dave - I am not 100% sure what you mean by "ask the same of you" but I will try to answer. Just FYI I owned my F150 for many years prior to purchasing the 23RS. Some Outbackers here have suggested that staying around 20% margin of the vehicle's ratings is a good way to go. My 23RS is within that range. Even so, I still feel my TV is pushed to its limits on nearly every trip. There are alot of guys on there that pull much larger Outbacks (than mine) with similar y/m F150's that feel 100% safe doing so.
> 
> My F150 pulls my 23RS "ok" in most situations I tow in. In some, it lacks power which is a consistent gripe I have about it. I accept the possibility that my truck may be something of a "lemon". However, it might also just be the altitude we live at, 3,000ft, at coupled with the air quality typically measuring closer to 5,000ft. It might be those factors combined with the perpetual West Texas winds that seem blow against us all too often. The canyon climbs we take on nearly every trip are a part of that perception as well. I feel safe towing our camper. I also feel that my TV is lacking in some areas - mainly power and to a somewhat lesser extent, braking. I have said for a good while now that I believe that in the situations I often tow in, my F150 is pushed to its limits. I have some repair bills to prove some of it as well. I have been looking at used 3/4 ton TV's for some time now. When the right one comes along, it will sit in our garage. Just FYI, my wife and I agreed, going into this, that we would not tow our camper to the mountains or any place that would put similar kinds of stress on our truck. For example, We choose canyon climbs that are the easy ones - not the most scenic...unfortunately. We just had a suspicion that it would push our F150 too hard and we don't want to tear up our truck. We were pretty much right about that. For the most part, we have Outbackers to thank for setting us on the right road to many happy camping adventures. I am grateful to them for having done so.
> 
> ...


Curtis, just when you said this: "If you are buying the the camper to fit the truck then why buy at or very near the maximum limit?" It seemed you did the same thing buying a camper that was at the limits of your F-150.......so I was wondering why you worded it like that. I was here asking these questions so I wouldn't get too close to that limit. I think i've convinced myself that i'm close, but not too close. And unless I turn stupid while driving, I will be just fine.

Yes, your comments and everyone's have helped me put it all in perspective. I'm going to proceed with the 300BH purchase. See you at a campground soon i hope! (and I would love to come to West Texas and do some star-gazing.......great dark skies out there!)

Dave.
[/quote]

Dave - no, the 23RS is not at nor is it near the weight limits for my F150. Like I said - looking at the raw weights, it comfortably around the 20% margin. We purposefully chose to go smaller, then smaller again. As it turns out - after the fact - I feel that the camper is all our truck can handle at certain times. My point was to say that I wouldn't (and didn't...due to Outbackers here educating me on some towing realities) buy a camper that was at or very near the maximum limits of my TV. Some people do buy a camper that is at the limit of their TV's weight ratings and love it. Some people buy campers that are over the limits and say their TV is totally fine. I bought a camper that was well under the limits and ended up with the perception (and some repair bills to back it up) that my TV is stressed to its limits during various situations. Lucky me, eh?









Here is a post I made a while back describing one of them.

23RS towed in wind post

I hope that clarifies things a bit.

-CC


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## hpapa4 (Apr 11, 2007)

Welcome to Outbackers. Enjoy the new rig.


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## dianee67 (Oct 12, 2008)

*WELCOME TO THE WONDERFUL WORLD OF OUTBACKERS! *


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

dherndonnc said:


> Yeah, at this point, car salesmen are starting to look good! They've been nice enough folks to deal with, but not good on information.....thank goodness for you guys here. It's helped a ton.
> 
> Here's one more question .... (am I over my quota? <g>)
> 
> ...


P = Passenger car tires will work but can contribute to sway control issues due to the softer side walls. You want to get LT = Light Truck tires and in load range E, you can pump them up when towing for a safer ride and lower the pressure when not towing for a softer ride.


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