# Do You Have Hard Water At Your House?



## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

what do you do about your hard water? If we put in a water softener system , I understand it's not good for the hot tub and my aquarium and for drinking/cooking. If we put in Kinetico System , I read that it takes so much out of your water that it's not good for your pets or plants...sheesh, I am so confused.
Anyone?









http://www.kinetico.com/KineticoSystems/


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## 4ME (Sep 11, 2006)

The water is so hard here I have to change my sprinkler heads almost every year.
The toilet guts go bad at an incredible rate too.
I should look into a system but It wouldn't help the sprinklers.


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

We used the Tri-Cities Water store which sells the Kinetico, we've had no problem (well 1st day but they came right back out and fixed a defective part). I turn it off when we fill the hot tub, other then that no problems.


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

Y-Guy said:


> We used the Tri-Cities Water store which sells the Kinetico, we've had no problem (well 1st day but they came right back out and fixed a defective part). I turn it off when we fill the hot tub, other then that no problems.


TC Water Store guy is the one that just left. For just the 2 of us in the house now the system would be $2700. He irked me a little when he said he'd give us the Benton Co.Fair no install fee special but only until FRIDAY. I hate it when salesman do that, it won't make my decision go one way or the other.
How come you turn it off when you fill the hot tub? he says because it's not like a reguler water softener system, it's ok for hot tubs. The part I read that it's not good for plants and animals, well, are your plants or dogs dead?







(couldn't resist)
What started this all is not able to get the downstairs shower and tub clean anymore. The tub is black ( WE DIDN'T PUT IT THERE!) the people before us did, it was weird, black tub, shower, sink and red towels. Over the years the sink was replaced and I accidently







broke the hideous black toilet a few years ago. For years 409 worked great on the tub, but now nothing is getting it clean, it all hard water stuff now.


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## Ghosty (Jan 17, 2005)

SEARS has really good water softners -- i got my whole house for under $700 installed ...(sears is actually the worlds largest seller of water softners)

All i do is add salt to it about once a month...


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## fspieg (Jul 31, 2006)

Ghosty said:


> SEARS has really good water softeners -- i got my whole house for under $700 installed ...(sears is actually the worlds largest seller of water softeners)
> 
> All i do is add salt to it about once a month...


Same here. Sears water softeners are a good value. Paid less than
$400 installed it myself for about $50 10 years ago and have never had a problem.


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## 3LEES (Feb 18, 2006)

We have a water softner. For showers, clothes washing and cleaning the dishes it works great.

We use a reverse osmosis system for our drinking water. Cristal clear water and ice.

As for our pool, we use water DIRECTLY from our well to fill the pool. Using softened water in the pool does not allow the chlorine to work properly.

Also, diluting your pool/spa water with softened water will change the water balance and may make your pool/spa water corrosive. Spa's require less calcium than pools due to the temperature as calcium is less soluble in hotter water.


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

so, is it possible if we were to get regular water softener like from Sears, could we somehow turn it off when we need to fill the hot tub? or when I need water for the aquarium? we have a filter system under kitchen sink and separate faucet thingy for drinking water that goes thru that filter and it works great. It is a small faucet for getting drinking water or filling coffee pot, etc. But now I also question that, the water that would come to that would be orginally coming thru the water softener, so would the drinking water still be filtered properly?


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## jetjane (Feb 8, 2007)

We have hard water from our well too. We haven't used a softener yet but have been thinking about it. It was good when we first moved here 5 years ago but has slowly been getting worse. We may just shock our well and see if that works before we go ahead and buy something expensive. It may be just an iron bacteria problem so the shocking would fix that up.

Anyway, have you tried CLR Bathroom and Kitchen Cleaner spray on your tub? It works well for me.


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

jetjane said:


> We have hard water from our well too. We haven't used a softener yet but have been thinking about it. It was good when we first moved here 5 years ago but has slowly been getting worse. We may just shock our well and see if that works before we go ahead and buy something expensive. It may be just an iron bacteria problem so the shocking would fix that up.
> 
> Anyway, have you tried CLR Bathroom and Kitchen Cleaner spray on your tub? It works well for me.


the gal at Home Depot suggested Lime Away so I'll try that, my joints hurt pretty bad right now so it'll be slow going.If that doesn't work, I'll try CLR. Just curious, the while shower wall where the little shelves stick out have red stain, something to do with the hard water and the material the shower wall is. Anyway, anyone have suggestions on that? I have very pretty shower curtain hiding it all but if we ever sell house and someone looks behind the curtain , they will leave screaming


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## redmonaz (Jul 24, 2006)

We looked into a water softener, but I could not get over the fact that you could not drink the water from it. They also had to run a line just to water your plants. The next sales tactic was, "it will make your appliances last longer." The only appliances it would help with are the hot water heater, $500, wahsing machine $300, dishwaser $200 and the ice maker $100. I explained I could replace these many times over for the price of his system, $4000, and have new appliances. Then he got to the buy it tonight or the price goes up routine. I thought my wife was interested and she thought I was. We made him go sit in his car while we discussed it. In 15 seconds we new neither of us wanted it so we watched TV for awhile then gave him the bad news. He shouldn't have given me an ultimatum!

If you only want the syetem to make cleaning easier you may think of applying the cost towards the easier cleaning system, a maid. We don't have that luxury, but if you could find one to come once a month to just clean the things you don't want to (ie. tubs, toilet) for $50 a month that would be almost 5 years of easy cleaning, and if you add in cleaning supplies....


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## 3LEES (Feb 18, 2006)

redmonaz said:


> We looked into a water softener, but I could not get over the fact that you could not drink the water from it. They also had to run a line just to water your plants. The next sales tactic was, "it will make your appliances last longer." The only appliances it would help with are the hot water heater, $500, washing machine $300, dishwasher $200 and the ice maker $100. I explained I could replace these many times over for the price of his system, $4000, and have new appliances. Then he got to the buy it tonight or the price goes up routine. I thought my wife was interested and she thought I was. We made him go sit in his car while we discussed it. In 15 seconds we new neither of us wanted it so we watched TV for awhile then gave him the bad news. He shouldn't have given me an ultimatum!
> 
> If you only want the system to make cleaning easier you may think of applying the cost towards the easier cleaning system, a maid. We don't have that luxury, but if you could find one to come once a month to just clean the things you don't want to (ie. tubs, toilet) for $50 a month that would be almost 5 years of easy cleaning, and if you add in cleaning supplies....


$4,000 for a water softener? Was it Gold Plated?

I paid under $1000.00 for my system 7 years ago. Although I haven't priced them recently, I don't think softener systems have quadrupled in price in 7 years.

Perhaps you should look at another company. One that doesn't sell water systems like they were used cars.


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## redmonaz (Jul 24, 2006)

3LEES said:


> We looked into a water softener, but I could not get over the fact that you could not drink the water from it. They also had to run a line just to water your plants. The next sales tactic was, "it will make your appliances last longer." The only appliances it would help with are the hot water heater, $500, washing machine $300, dishwasher $200 and the ice maker $100. I explained I could replace these many times over for the price of his system, $4000, and have new appliances. Then he got to the buy it tonight or the price goes up routine. I thought my wife was interested and she thought I was. We made him go sit in his car while we discussed it. In 15 seconds we new neither of us wanted it so we watched TV for awhile then gave him the bad news. He shouldn't have given me an ultimatum!
> 
> If you only want the system to make cleaning easier you may think of applying the cost towards the easier cleaning system, a maid. We don't have that luxury, but if you could find one to come once a month to just clean the things you don't want to (ie. tubs, toilet) for $50 a month that would be almost 5 years of easy cleaning, and if you add in cleaning supplies....


$4,000 for a water softener? Was it Gold Plated?

I paid under $1000.00 for my system 7 years ago. Although I haven't priced them recently, I don't think softener systems have quadrupled in price in 7 years.

Perhaps you should look at another company. One that doesn't sell water systems like they were used cars.
[/quote]

Thats why we didn't buy it, and that happened 10 years ago. The only thing I want is an RO system, they're only $150 at Sams Club.


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

3LEES said:


> We looked into a water softener, but I could not get over the fact that you could not drink the water from it. They also had to run a line just to water your plants. The next sales tactic was, "it will make your appliances last longer." The only appliances it would help with are the hot water heater, $500, washing machine $300, dishwasher $200 and the ice maker $100. I explained I could replace these many times over for the price of his system, $4000, and have new appliances. Then he got to the buy it tonight or the price goes up routine. I thought my wife was interested and she thought I was. We made him go sit in his car while we discussed it. In 15 seconds we new neither of us wanted it so we watched TV for awhile then gave him the bad news. He shouldn't have given me an ultimatum!
> 
> If you only want the system to make cleaning easier you may think of applying the cost towards the easier cleaning system, a maid. We don't have that luxury, but if you could find one to come once a month to just clean the things you don't want to (ie. tubs, toilet) for $50 a month that would be almost 5 years of easy cleaning, and if you add in cleaning supplies....


$4,000 for a water softener? Was it Gold Plated?

I paid under $1000.00 for my system 7 years ago. Although I haven't priced them recently, I don't think softener systems have quadrupled in price in 7 years.

Perhaps you should look at another company. One that doesn't sell water systems like they were used cars.
[/quote]
the Kinetico system for just this house with 1800 sq ft and only 2 people living here was $2700. A bigger house or even if we still had kids at home, would cost more. What system do you have?


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## camping479 (Aug 27, 2003)

We put a culligan softener system in 1998 and have been drinking the water all along and we're still alive







It has a different taste but we got used to it. I've also been using it in my aquariums with no problem. It might be an issue if you have fish that are very sensitive to water conditions.

We have an outdoor spigot that bypasses the softener for washing the car and watering plants, there is also a bypass valve on the softener itself so if you were filling a hot tub you could bypass the softener.

My wife likes it because she uses about a third of the laundry and dishwasher detergent and there is much less calcium buildup in the tubs, toilets, etc.

Ours cost us around 1200 installed, it was a good investment IMO.

Mike


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## GlenninTexas (Aug 11, 2004)

Had a softener at my last house, but am now on a rainwater collection system. No more hard water problems for me.

Your outside hose bibs should be plumbed outside of the softener loop. Of course hard water isn't good for plants, but is better than using softened water that contains a salt residual.
You should also look at using Potassium Chloride instead of salt for the rinse. Its more expensive, but better on the overall system. If your softener discharge goes directly into a septic system, this will be real important because the salt bring will kill the bacteria in the septic system , then you've got another problem.

Regards, Glenn


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## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

I got a water softener at Home Depot about six or seven years ago for a few hundred bucks. I only installed it on the hot water side of our house since I figured it would help with the water heater, dishwasher, etc. I don't have to worry about drinking it or the plants, grass, pool or whatever. I think we've seen a decrease in the amount of junk on shower heads and in the dishwasher.


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## MaeJae (May 12, 2005)

We use and LOVE Kinetico!
The reason is simple... We NEVER run out of soft water.
(unless you forget to add salt to the brine tank...







)
No matter how much you use at any given time you
will NOT run out! This is because of their 2 tank
system. Other water softeners will "regenerate" at
a predetermined* time* of day/night. 
This system works off of how much you use it.
If you are on vacation and don't use the water 
it will not regenerate. If you have a large usage 
of water(party,gathering,washing the OB) it
will regenerate after a predetermined amount of
*water* (like maybe 300gal.) then automatically
switch over to the other filter tank while the 
other one is regenerating and then is ready
for filtering.

We have 2 dedicated hard water spigots for
watering flowers and filling/topping off the pool.

Using the soft water screws up the pool and causes
us to use more chemicals(hardener)

We also have 2 dedicated soft water spigots 
to wash the cars and Outback. (or slip-n-slide...LOL)

MaeJae


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

Insomniak said:


> I got a water softener at Home Depot about six or seven years ago for a few hundred bucks. I only installed it on the hot water side of our house since I figured it would help with the water heater, dishwasher, etc. I don't have to worry about drinking it or the plants, grass, pool or whatever. I think we've seen a decrease in the amount of junk on shower heads and in the dishwasher.


that's a thought, the hot water side only.But the warm water being used would be mixed with the cold hard water, do you notice significanlty reduced hard water stains?


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## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

Doxie-Doglover-Too said:


> I got a water softener at Home Depot about six or seven years ago for a few hundred bucks. I only installed it on the hot water side of our house since I figured it would help with the water heater, dishwasher, etc. I don't have to worry about drinking it or the plants, grass, pool or whatever. I think we've seen a decrease in the amount of junk on shower heads and in the dishwasher.


that's a thought, the hot water side only.But the warm water being used would be mixed with the cold hard water, do you notice significanlty reduced hard water stains?
[/quote]

Yep. We don't have nearly as much deposits on the shower heads, walls and appliances as we used to.

Our softener only regenerates when it needs to as well (as I think all of them do). It knows the water hardness and calculates the number of gallons that have gone through it. I have it programmed to do its thing at 4am when nobody's likely to be using the hot water.


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## wolfwood (Sep 19, 2005)

GlenninTexas said:


> Had a softener at my last house, but am now on a rainwater collection system. No more hard water problems for me.
> 
> Your outside hose bibs should be plumbed outside of the softener loop. Of course hard water isn't good for plants, but is better than using softened water that contains a salt residual.
> You should also look at using Potassium Chloride instead of salt for the rinse. Its more expensive, but better on the overall system. If your softener discharge goes directly into a septic system, this will be real important because the salt bring will kill the bacteria in the septic system , then you've got another problem.
> ...


Agreed - Potassium Chloride....whether you empty into a septic system or open gound (our's drains out a basement window and filters/leaches into the ground. Salt would destroy the ground and the 13acre pond behind the house.

Regardless of what company or or the many options of filters....have you actually had your water tested to determine what it is that actually needs to be removed? Different systems do different things. Cooperative Extension (or your State University) can perform the testing (many water system installers will also do the testing).


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

wolfwood said:


> Had a softener at my last house, but am now on a rainwater collection system. No more hard water problems for me.
> 
> Your outside hose bibs should be plumbed outside of the softener loop. Of course hard water isn't good for plants, but is better than using softened water that contains a salt residual.
> You should also look at using Potassium Chloride instead of salt for the rinse. Its more expensive, but better on the overall system. If your softener discharge goes directly into a septic system, this will be real important because the salt bring will kill the bacteria in the septic system , then you've got another problem.
> ...


Agreed - Potassium Chloride....whether you empty into a septic system or open gound (our's drains out a basement window and filters/leaches into the ground. Salt would destroy the ground and the 13acre pond behind the house.

Regardless of what company or or the many options of filters....have you actually had your water tested to determine what it is that actually needs to be removed? Different systems do different things. Cooperative Extension (or your State University) can perform the testing (many water system installers will also do the testing).
[/quote]

his tested was simple one, the water turned purple and he said we have hard water. I think I will check into more thorough testing! thanks! we have aquarium, we have hot tub, we have septic system.....I am leaning towards bagging it and just deal with it!


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## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

Those with kidney disease need to be slightly more careful when using potassium chloride in their water softener, if they actually drink they water. Course, those with hypertension also need to be aware of drinking the water if they use sodium chloride tablets....


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## ED_RN (Jun 25, 2006)

Whats the difference between water softeners and "whole house" water systems that you don't have to add salt to? We checked out several systems at the county fair this year and it just made me more confused. Of course everyone said their system was the best. For the reason I'll list below we are looking at a whole house system but still not sure if it's a waste of money.

FYI: Before you buy if you have a city waste sewer system make sure the city isn't getting ready to outlaw water softeners. Where we live in southern Calif. one city has just outlawed any new installations including replacements for existing systems. There has been some discussions that cities are looking into outright bans. The reason is the cost and difficulty of handling the brine dumped into the sewer by the treatment plants. Apparently it slows the decomposition of the other stuff, if you know what I mean.


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## MaeJae (May 12, 2005)

Insomniak said:


> I got a water softener at Home Depot about six or seven years ago for a few hundred bucks. I only installed it on the hot water side of our house since I figured it would help with the water heater, dishwasher, etc. I don't have to worry about drinking it or the plants, grass, pool or whatever. I think we've seen a decrease in the amount of junk on shower heads and in the dishwasher.


that's a thought, the hot water side only.But the warm water being used would be mixed with the cold hard water, do you notice significantly reduced hard water stains?
[/quote]

Yep. We don't have nearly as much deposits on the shower heads, walls and appliances as we used to.

Our softener only regenerates when it needs to as well (*as I think all of them do*). It knows the water hardness and calculates the number of gallons that have gone through it. I have it programmed to do its thing at* 4am* when nobody's likely to be using the hot water.
[/quote]

You have it programed to regen at 4am... What if you run out of soft water at 7pm?
And you still have 2 loads of laundry and a shower to go?
I don't think all softeners are the same. Most regenerate at a set time, like you have yours set.

Kinetico systems work off of a "flow meter" there is NO electricity used with this system.
There is no computer to set. It woks off of your water pressure/flow.
When they come to test your water the service person
determines how hard your water is and the "flow meter" is configured and set before
it is installed. it is custom for each household. That is the reason for
the two tank(filter) system. Ours is set to regenerate every 300gal. of water
no matter what time it is.

Depending on how hard your water is I would just soften all your water. That
kinda defeats the purpose of a softener... to just soften half of your water.
Do you have an ice cube maker/water dispenser? I would not want that 
to get gunked up.

MaeJae


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## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

You're right MaeJae, we could run out of softened water. It regenerates when you program it, so it will sit there flashing "recharge tonight", but you can press "recharge now" if you want to.

To be honest, I added it to the hot water side of the house because 1) I was lazy 2) I didn't want to mess with the water main and bypass loops for the outside sprinklers and pool and 3) I figured that most problems with hard water deposits are in the hot water side - the appliances, pipes, etc.

I forgot about the ice-maker. Eh, whatever, we don't use it that much anyway









We have pretty hard water here - about 170 ppm or 10 grains per gallon (gpg), so I probably should soften everything....


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