# Not Enough Juice To Run Microwave And A/c



## Tangooutback

My 25RSS has 30 amps connection. This is obviously not sufficient to run both a/c and microwave oven. I have to turn off a/c everytime I run the microwave and it is getting to be annoying.

Does everyone have this same problem?

If you do, have you thought about wiring the microwave to an independent plug where you can plug into a 15amp outlet of the facility power supply? This way you can simultaneously run both a/c and microwave.


----------



## MacTeam

It is very frustrating..
This idea has merit. So you would have an extension cord (15 amp) and your 30 amp cable coming from the same cord storage compartment. I would think you'd have to wire the m/w plug all the way back to that box... might get ugly depending how far away the kitchen is from the back of the TT.

I'd love to know if anyone has done this because for sure, many/most parks have both 30 and 15 amp plugs on their 30 amp sites.


----------



## CamperAndy

The limit will often just be transferred the problem to the post. The posts are typically wired for 30 amp but will also have a 15 amp outlet beside it. You may get away with running both but chances are it will still pull the voltage down and drive the current up to the point of tripping one of them. The expectation is you use one or the other not both.

If the post is wired for 50 amp then you will have no problem doing this.


----------



## Tangooutback

I am thinking of running wire in conduit under the belly all the way to the closest point possible to the microwave location. The entry is my concern. I am so reluctant to drill a hole through the floor to run wire up into the microwave compartment. The microwave has a plug and it plugs into a wall outlet. I am thinking of setting up a second wall outlet next to the original one. This way I have the choice of using the line connected directly to the power post or I can use the internal circuit in the trailer in the event I want to power the trailer with a generator.

While I am at it, I'll also wire another outlet under the belly to connect outdoors kitchen appliances, which is independent from the trailer circuit.

Andy, Most State Parks in Texas have both 50 amps and 30 amps outlet at the power post....


----------



## KTMRacer

I haven't had any trouble running A/C AND microwave in my 295RE. The A/C draws about 12 A max, likewise for the microwave. So unless you've got other stuff on you should be ok. It is possible your 30A main breaker is bad. OR.... since the charger is always on, if your also running a fair number of lights, or have partially charged batteries, you could be drawing another 6-12A for the charger. Also make sure the fridge or hot water heater aren't on electric. Fridge draws about 4-5A.

Interestingly, the charger wiring would not pass on a house code wiring inspection. It draws 12A max, so by code it must be on a dedicated breaker (20A??), but it is combined with the rest of the recepticals on my rig on a 15A breaker, so if the charger is charging drained batteries you only have 3-5 A left for anything else plugged in. Course if it was on it's own breaker, then it would violate the code requirement that a 30A panel have no more than 5 circuits unless there is an automatic load shed handler. I ended up putting the charger on it's own 15A circuit just so I could shut it off when I wanted to when I am running off my honda 2000 generator so I could run the microwave or A/C w/o overloading the honda 2000.


----------



## CamperAndy

KTMRacer said:


> I haven't had any trouble running A/C AND microwave in my 295RE. The A/C draws about 12 A max, likewise for the microwave. So unless you've got other stuff on you should be ok. It is possible your 30A main breaker is bad. OR.... since the charger is always on, if your also running a fair number of lights, or have partially charged batteries, you could be drawing another 6-12A for the charger. Also make sure the fridge or hot water heater aren't on electric. Fridge draws about 4-5A.
> 
> Interestingly, the charger wiring would not pass on a house code wiring inspection. It draws 12A max, so by code it must be on a dedicated breaker (20A??), but it is combined with the rest of the recepticals on my rig on a 15A breaker, so if the charger is charging drained batteries you only have 3-5 A left for anything else plugged in. Course if it was on it's own breaker, then it would violate the code requirement that a 30A panel have no more than 5 circuits unless there is an automatic load shed handler. I ended up putting the charger on it's own 15A circuit just so I could shut it off when I wanted to when I am running off my honda 2000 generator so I could run the microwave or A/C w/o overloading the honda 2000.


The converter will only draw 4 to 5 amps AC and that is if it is working flat out. Most of the time it is only pulling 1 to 1.5 amps AC.

Most only have a 45 amp charger and that is at 12.6 VDC. Change that to 120 VAC and you get 4.7 amp VAC draw.


----------



## KTMRacer

CamperAndy said:


> I haven't had any trouble running A/C AND microwave in my 295RE. The A/C draws about 12 A max, likewise for the microwave. So unless you've got other stuff on you should be ok. It is possible your 30A main breaker is bad. OR.... since the charger is always on, if your also running a fair number of lights, or have partially charged batteries, you could be drawing another 6-12A for the charger. Also make sure the fridge or hot water heater aren't on electric. Fridge draws about 4-5A.
> 
> Interestingly, the charger wiring would not pass on a house code wiring inspection. It draws 12A max, so by code it must be on a dedicated breaker (20A??), but it is combined with the rest of the recepticals on my rig on a 15A breaker, so if the charger is charging drained batteries you only have 3-5 A left for anything else plugged in. Course if it was on it's own breaker, then it would violate the code requirement that a 30A panel have no more than 5 circuits unless there is an automatic load shed handler. I ended up putting the charger on it's own 15A circuit just so I could shut it off when I wanted to when I am running off my honda 2000 generator so I could run the microwave or A/C w/o overloading the honda 2000.


The converter will only draw 4 to 5 amps AC and that is if it is working flat out. Most of the time it is only pulling 1 to 1.5 amps AC.

Most only have a 45 amp charger and that is at 12.6 VDC. Change that to 120 VAC and you get 4.7 amp VAC draw.
[/quote]

chargers are only about 80% efficient, and have a terrrible power factor(0.8 or worse). that combination can double the estimated current draw. I've measured the AC current on the WFCO 55A converter in my trailer along and a PD 6145 converter I replaced it with. both can and will draw close to 10A when they are putting out full rated power, and 3-4 amps with the batteries mostly charged. the label on my WFCO 55A converter lists max input current draw of 12A @ 120VAC input.


----------



## Tangooutback

Last weekend when I had the problem the battery was brand spanking new and was fully charged with a car charger before I left the house. I do not use DC power for anything since campsite provides shore power. I did not use the radio/stereo or any light at all. The refrigerator was in electric mode.

I looked in the breaker box trying to locate the breaker for the converter to shut it off but could not find it there. There was label for every breaker but the inverter was not any label at all. So, how do I identify the converter breaker?

If the battery is already full and no DC appliance is used, does the converter stop drawing current?


----------



## CamperAndy

KTMRacer said:


> I haven't had any trouble running A/C AND microwave in my 295RE. The A/C draws about 12 A max, likewise for the microwave. So unless you've got other stuff on you should be ok. It is possible your 30A main breaker is bad. OR.... since the charger is always on, if your also running a fair number of lights, or have partially charged batteries, you could be drawing another 6-12A for the charger. Also make sure the fridge or hot water heater aren't on electric. Fridge draws about 4-5A.
> 
> Interestingly, the charger wiring would not pass on a house code wiring inspection. It draws 12A max, so by code it must be on a dedicated breaker (20A??), but it is combined with the rest of the recepticals on my rig on a 15A breaker, so if the charger is charging drained batteries you only have 3-5 A left for anything else plugged in. Course if it was on it's own breaker, then it would violate the code requirement that a 30A panel have no more than 5 circuits unless there is an automatic load shed handler. I ended up putting the charger on it's own 15A circuit just so I could shut it off when I wanted to when I am running off my honda 2000 generator so I could run the microwave or A/C w/o overloading the honda 2000.


The converter will only draw 4 to 5 amps AC and that is if it is working flat out. Most of the time it is only pulling 1 to 1.5 amps AC.

Most only have a 45 amp charger and that is at 12.6 VDC. Change that to 120 VAC and you get 4.7 amp VAC draw.
[/quote]

chargers are only about 80% efficient, and have a terrrible power factor(0.8 or worse). that combination can double the estimated current draw. I've measured the AC current on the WFCO 55A converter in my trailer along and a PD 6145 converter I replaced it with. both can and will draw close to 10A when they are putting out full rated power, and 3-4 amps with the batteries mostly charged. the label on my WFCO 55A converter lists max input current draw of 12A @ 120VAC input.
[/quote]

The label may say 12 amp max but it would not last long at that rate. I must be lucky mine barely tops .5 amp AC when on float and seldom works much harder then 3 or 4 amp when the batteries are low. My fluke 337 clamp on amp meter is very accurate.


----------



## hautevue

There are several "hidden" drains on the 12v system: the propane detector, the stereo display and its "station memory". The battery will usually draw an amp or two of 12vdc even if "fully charged."

Thus your converter will dribble out 12volts even when you carefully shut off all 12v drains, like the reefer, etc. So 4 amps dc is reasonable for just the overhead of the TT circuits.

Do you have the reefer "on" while towing to the campground? We leave ours on because it's a slow cooler; if you drive 3 - 4 hours with the reefer in the propane mode, you will draw a little DC for it. Then when you hook up to shore power, the converter will try to put that power back into the batteries.


----------



## thefulminator

Don't believe the labels on the breakers. Some of mine are definitely wrong. The microwave kicks off when I turn off the breaker marked AC. Don't know if the microwave and AC labels are reversed or if the AC and main labels are reversed. Just haven't gotten around to figuring out which is which.


----------



## KTMRacer

Tangooutback said:


> Last weekend when I had the problem the battery was brand spanking new and was fully charged with a car charger before I left the house. I do not use DC power for anything since campsite provides shore power. I did not use the radio/stereo or any light at all. The refrigerator was in electric mode.
> 
> I looked in the breaker box trying to locate the breaker for the converter to shut it off but could not find it there. There was label for every breaker but the inverter was not any label at all. So, how do I identify the converter breaker?
> 
> If the battery is already full and no DC appliance is used, does the converter stop drawing current?


breaker for the converter is in most cases is the same breaker as the recepticals. OUCH!! bad design, but the only way to meet code on number of breakers they can have on the 30A main circuit. turning off converter turns off TV etc!! bummer
running the fridge on electric is adding another 4-5 amps to your current draw. Mine draws 460 watts (4A) when it is on, this may be part of your overload problem. By the way, the fridge is also on one of the receptical breakers, don't recall if it is the main recepticals or the one supplying the GFI circuits.
yes your converter is drawing power all the time, only a amp or so idle.

I'd first turn the fridge to gas mode and see if that fixes the problem.

Another things, were you running the hot water heater on electric??? If so, that's another 10A draw.


----------



## KTMRacer

CamperAndy said:


> I haven't had any trouble running A/C AND microwave in my 295RE. The A/C draws about 12 A max, likewise for the microwave. So unless you've got other stuff on you should be ok. It is possible your 30A main breaker is bad. OR.... since the charger is always on, if your also running a fair number of lights, or have partially charged batteries, you could be drawing another 6-12A for the charger. Also make sure the fridge or hot water heater aren't on electric. Fridge draws about 4-5A.
> 
> Interestingly, the charger wiring would not pass on a house code wiring inspection. It draws 12A max, so by code it must be on a dedicated breaker (20A??), but it is combined with the rest of the recepticals on my rig on a 15A breaker, so if the charger is charging drained batteries you only have 3-5 A left for anything else plugged in. Course if it was on it's own breaker, then it would violate the code requirement that a 30A panel have no more than 5 circuits unless there is an automatic load shed handler. I ended up putting the charger on it's own 15A circuit just so I could shut it off when I wanted to when I am running off my honda 2000 generator so I could run the microwave or A/C w/o overloading the honda 2000.


The converter will only draw 4 to 5 amps AC and that is if it is working flat out. Most of the time it is only pulling 1 to 1.5 amps AC.

Most only have a 45 amp charger and that is at 12.6 VDC. Change that to 120 VAC and you get 4.7 amp VAC draw.
[/quote]

chargers are only about 80% efficient, and have a terrrible power factor(0.8 or worse). that combination can double the estimated current draw. I've measured the AC current on the WFCO 55A converter in my trailer along and a PD 6145 converter I replaced it with. both can and will draw close to 10A when they are putting out full rated power, and 3-4 amps with the batteries mostly charged. the label on my WFCO 55A converter lists max input current draw of 12A @ 120VAC input.
[/quote]

The label may say 12 amp max but it would not last long at that rate. I must be lucky mine barely tops .5 amp AC when on float and seldom works much harder then 3 or 4 amp when the batteries are low. My fluke 337 clamp on amp meter is very accurate.
[/quote]

you may never be getting into charger boost mode (14.5V output). I have a 55A converter. 55A is in boost mode so it is 55Ax14.5v= 800 watts. even at 100% efficency that's 6.7A at 120V. I've measured mine when in boost mode at 50A charge rate, and Current draw from the line is right at 10A measured also with a fluke clamp on amp meter or a killowatt meter. If you have a WFCO converter in your rig, especially the 55A "smart charger" version they are known for seldom/never going to boost mode and hence limiting charge current to 10-15A max. Had that problem on mine and swapped the PS section out for the PD 55A conversion unit.


----------



## CamperAndy

KTMRacer said:


> you may never be getting into charger boost mode (14.5V output). I have a 55A converter. 55A is in boost mode so it is 55Ax14.5v= 800 watts. even at 100% efficency that's 6.7A at 120V. I've measured mine when in boost mode at 50A charge rate, and Current draw from the line is right at 10A measured also with a fluke clamp on amp meter or a killowatt meter. If you have a WFCO converter in your rig, especially the 55A "smart charger" version they are known for seldom/never going to boost mode and hence limiting charge current to 10-15A max. Had that problem on mine and swapped the PS section out for the PD 55A conversion unit.


Most never do and if they did it is typically a very short duration event 99% of the time and if it is longer or more often then you have other issues. All Outbacks have WFCO converters but some have the 45 amp version although some must have the 55 amp version it can not be fully used as there is a thermal breaker in the line from the converter to the batteries that is limited to 40 amp and at most 50 amp so I don't think they expect you to push that many amps very often. My typical charge is 13.6 vdc at a max of about 30 DC amps.


----------



## goingcamping

As I read this post I had an idea that might satisfy the needs of the OP...how about wiring in a 12Vdc to 110Vac converter for your microwave? I do most of my camping in remote areas, and therefore utilize my Honda EU2000i for all 110Vac and keeping the batteries topped off. Here's my thought...assuming the microwave uses 1,000watts for full power (I have no idea what two (2) 12vdc batteries can can deliver, time-wise, in this capacity?) run the microwave off the converter and keep the A/C running...if hooked to a 30amp shore power, your batteries should keep a full charge and have zero impact on what the OB converter is doing (you should plan on other items running off 110Vac as the previous responder's had mentioned!)

Not an electrician by any stretch, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express, but I was thinking of doing this conversion for my TV and DVD players, as I like to watch the TV before bed, but hate to get up (half to completely asleep) to shut off my generator and therefore still be a good camper (have been know to just run the generator all night, cause I'm way lazy)!

I know it sounds stupid to make such a weird mod, but give me your thoughts and anyone else on here straighten me out if they can find a reason why I shouldn't do this?


----------



## Bob in Virginia

Lots of OB have the issue of the AC popping when run with the microwave. Typically there are two solutions, one is to turn off the AC compressor, the other is to convert to 50 amp service. Running a separate 120vac line to the MW is new, and could work, assuming as you said that the post has sufficient amperage available. If you do this, recommend putting a fuse in-line to provide yourself some protection.


----------



## KTMRacer

goingcamping said:


> As I read this post I had an idea that might satisfy the needs of the OP...how about wiring in a 12Vdc to 110Vac converter for your microwave? I do most of my camping in remote areas, and therefore utilize my Honda EU2000i for all 110Vac and keeping the batteries topped off. Here's my thought...assuming the microwave uses 1,000watts for full power (I have no idea what two (2) 12vdc batteries can can deliver, time-wise, in this capacity?) run the microwave off the converter and keep the A/C running...if hooked to a 30amp shore power, your batteries should keep a full charge and have zero impact on what the OB converter is doing (you should plan on other items running off 110Vac as the previous responder's had mentioned!)
> 
> Not an electrician by any stretch, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express, but I was thinking of doing this conversion for my TV and DVD players, as I like to watch the TV before bed, but hate to get up (half to completely asleep) to shut off my generator and therefore still be a good camper (have been know to just run the generator all night, cause I'm way lazy)!
> 
> I know it sounds stupid to make such a weird mod, but give me your thoughts and anyone else on here straighten me out if they can find a reason why I shouldn't do this?


it's a great solution to let you watch tv, charge laptop, run a few other things. Running a microwave really needs a 2000 watt pure sine wave converter. 1000 watts sine wave or even 2000 MSW doesn't work well with microwave ovens. (explaination is pretty involved with the microwave electronics to allow them to be sold so cheap)

Done right, it would work well, but probably more spendy than most folks would want. 2000 watt sine wave inverters are pretty expensive, figure $350 plus. you also need to be very close to the batteries then run the 120V from the batteries to the microwave. and to allow use with shore power/generator when it was available requires a transfer switch and another subpanel. If you do all the work yourself, I'd guess you'd be out about $750-1000.

For batteries, you'd need at least two 6V, preferably 4 6V deep discharge batteries. You'd be drawing about 120 amps for the microwave. They are a pretty reactive load with a terrible power factor, so you'll need 10A plus at 120V. Also the power rating on microwaves is usually what is delivered to the load. Actual power is higher and the VA draw is even higher. As long as you'd only be boiling water, reheating stuff it should work. Just don't plan on cooking a dinner for 30 minutes!

I have two Trojan T125 6V batteries. What I've done is wire in a 1000 watt sine wave inverter through a transfer switch and subpanel to power ONLY the two receptical breakers. that way it won't be overloaded by the microwave or AC by accident. If I had a 2000 watt inverter, I'd also add the microwave breaker to the subpanel. The 1000W sine wave inverter/transfer switch setup has been perfect to power the TV (outback 295RE TV is 120V only), charge all those battery powered stuff like laptops, cell phones, PDA's, run the coffee grinder or magic bullet for the afternoon/evening margritas, even run the DW hairdryer on the low setting! without having to start up the generator.


----------



## rubenhank

CamperAndy said:


> I haven't had any trouble running A/C AND microwave in my 295RE. The A/C draws about 12 A max, likewise for the microwave. So unless you've got other stuff on you should be ok. It is possible your 30A main breaker is bad. OR.... since the charger is always on, if your also running a fair number of lights, or have partially charged batteries, you could be drawing another 6-12A for the charger. Also make sure the fridge or hot water heater aren't on electric. Fridge draws about 4-5A.
> 
> Interestingly, the charger wiring would not pass on a house code wiring inspection. It draws 12A max, so by code it must be on a dedicated breaker (20A??), but it is combined with the rest of the recepticals on my rig on a 15A breaker, so if the charger is charging drained batteries you only have 3-5 A left for anything else plugged in. Course if it was on it's own breaker, then it would violate the code requirement that a 30A panel have no more than 5 circuits unless there is an automatic load shed handler. I ended up putting the charger on it's own 15A circuit just so I could shut it off when I wanted to when I am running off my honda 2000 generator so I could run the microwave or A/C w/o overloading the honda 2000.


The converter will only draw 4 to 5 amps AC and that is if it is working flat out. Most of the time it is only pulling 1 to 1.5 amps AC.

Most only have a 45 amp charger and that is at 12.6 VDC. Change that to 120 VAC and you get 4.7 amp VAC draw.
[/quote]

chargers are only about 80% efficient, and have a terrrible power factor(0.8 or worse). that combination can double the estimated current draw. I've measured the AC current on the WFCO 55A converter in my trailer along and a PD 6145 converter I replaced it with. both can and will draw close to 10A when they are putting out full rated power, and 3-4 amps with the batteries mostly charged. the label on my WFCO 55A converter lists max input current draw of 12A @ 120VAC input.
[/quote]

The label may say 12 amp max but it would not last long at that rate. I must be lucky mine barely tops .5 amp AC when on float and seldom works much harder then 3 or 4 amp when the batteries are low. My fluke 337 clamp on amp meter is very accurate.
[/quote]

I wonder if the batteries are not present (i.e. broken circuit), if the changer still runs. I can't see how it would. I have, as many people have, hooked up a switch to break the cicuits on my batteries. That way, I do not have to unhook them to prevent the "battery drains" from killing the batteries when I am in storage. I also use this switch to stop the chaging if I am on shore power for many days. My charger has boiled off my batteries before and I don't want it to happen again.

Anyway, my guess is that if you break the circuit to the batteries, the converter would just be powering the 12v items that you are using and not the charger. Saving you those amps for the microwave... I have not had this problem (that I recall); although, a toaster and the AC have brought me down several times.


----------



## CamperAndy

rubenhank said:


> I wonder if the batteries are not present (i.e. broken circuit), if the changer still runs. I can't see how it would. I have, as many people have, hooked up a switch to break the cicuits on my batteries. That way, I do not have to unhook them to prevent the "battery drains" from killing the batteries when I am in storage. I also use this switch to stop the chaging if I am on shore power for many days. My charger has boiled off my batteries before and I don't want it to happen again.
> 
> Anyway, my guess is that if you break the circuit to the batteries, the converter would just be powering the 12v items that you are using and not the charger. Saving you those amps for the microwave... I have not had this problem (that I recall); although, a toaster and the AC have brought me down several times.


Once you have been on shore power a while the batteries will be fully charged and the only real load the converter reacts to is the actual DC draw in the trailer plus a really small float current for the battery. If you disconnect the batter the converter still operates and supplies all the 12 volt needs minus the float current. The only time disconnecting the battery would be of benefit is when the battery is very low and you just connected to shore power and then turned on the Micro Wave. If that is the case it would be better to just turn off the converter and run the DC on whatever the battery is at until you are done with the micro wave.


----------



## rdvholtwood

Tangooutback said:


> My 25RSS has 30 amps connection. This is obviously not sufficient to run both a/c and microwave oven. I have to turn off a/c everytime I run the microwave and it is getting to be annoying.
> 
> Does everyone have this same problem?
> 
> If you do, have you thought about wiring the microwave to an independent plug where you can plug into a 15amp outlet of the facility power supply? This way you can simultaneously run both a/c and microwave.


Interesting...we have a 250RS..with a 30amp connection and never noticed a problem..nor do I recall if both were running at the same time. I will definitely have to check that one out. I am wondering if its a problem at the outlet at the CG?


----------



## BoaterDan

It's been my experience also that 30 amps is plenty to run the microwave and the a/c, providing

A. the CG is actually able to supply 30 amps
B. there aren't any other major AC draws on such as the water heater, coffee maker, 100v lights, etc.

I was dry camping with a friend this summer... well dry camping with a Honda 6500W generator. With both of us running our air, the load was hovering right around 3k watts total (for two trailers).


----------



## WWH

I converted ours from 30 amp to 50 amp service so I could add the second ac and operate all appliances anytime.

Since 50 amp service is basically two 120 volt 50 amp legs I split the electrical load in the new power distribution panel into the necessary items that could run on a 30 amp service leg without problems if we had to and put everything else on a separate leg.

I am so glad I converted to 50 amp service!


----------



## Tangooutback

WWH said:


> I converted ours from 30 amp to 50 amp service so I could add the second ac and operate all appliances anytime.
> 
> Since 50 amp service is basically two 120 volt 50 amp legs I split the electrical load in the new power distribution panel into the necessary items that could run on a 30 amp service leg without problems if we had to and put everything else on a separate leg.
> 
> I am so glad I converted to 50 amp service!


This mod requires running new wires inside the TT ?


----------



## Chuggs

First...our 282FE runs the microwave fine with a/c and tv going plus a few lights, fridge, etc... We do turn off the electric element on the water heater when using the microwave.

Second...

You've got a workable idea.

I would use the flexible rubber insulated stranded copper 12-2 w/ ground as a minimum. You would have to put a sub panel in the camper...preferably close to the main panel. You could put a 20 amp main on it...if you used the 12 awg wire. The breaker that you already have for the microwave...if it's a single...you could move it over to the new box...you'll need to track down the neutral and ground leads from the microwave and move them over as well. If it's a double ganged unit...I guess just abandon the one position...and buy another breaker of the same value. IE...if that breaker is a 15 amp...go 15amp. It's probably got a 14 awg wire going to it. Put that breaker in your new sub panel and hook the Hot to it...remembering to bring the microwaves neutral and ground wires over with it.

I'd make a sticker to put over the old microwave breaker position...so a service guy doesn't go barking up the wrong tree. You might even put a label in there with a note: the microwave circuit is located in a separate sub panel.

Do you have a 70 in TV running at the same time? I'm wondering where all the power is going.


----------



## WWH

Tangooutback said:


> I converted ours from 30 amp to 50 amp service so I could add the second ac and operate all appliances anytime.
> 
> Since 50 amp service is basically two 120 volt 50 amp legs I split the electrical load in the new power distribution panel into the necessary items that could run on a 30 amp service leg without problems if we had to and put everything else on a separate leg.
> 
> I am so glad I converted to 50 amp service!


This mod requires running new wires inside the TT ?
[/quote]

Yes I had to add #6 wiring, I left the original romex for future generator wiring when I get around to building a generator support at the rear of the trailer. I also had to replace the shore cord, and the plugs.


----------



## WWH

WWH said:


> I converted ours from 30 amp to 50 amp service so I could add the second ac and operate all appliances anytime.
> 
> Since 50 amp service is basically two 120 volt 50 amp legs I split the electrical load in the new power distribution panel into the necessary items that could run on a 30 amp service leg without problems if we had to and put everything else on a separate leg.
> 
> I am so glad I converted to 50 amp service!


This mod requires running new wires inside the TT ?
[/quote]

Yes I had to add #6 wiring, I left the original romex for future generator wiring when I get around to building a generator support at the rear of the trailer. I also had to replace the shore cord, and the plugs.
[/quote]

I found this website to be extremely helpful in my 30 to 50 amp conversion. http://www.myrv.us/electric/


----------



## Wisconsin-Knight

I posted my that I had wired my hot water heater to a 20 amp exterior cord thus putting 50 amps into my trailer without replacing the main power cord. This works well. I put a double pole double throw switch in so I could switch to inside power or the extension cord. Email me if you want details. It should be simple to take the microwave off its breaker and run it to the switch. The switch is wired to the breaker and also to a short extension cord poking out the hole where your main cable goes in. No long cable run inside or under the trailer is needed. Email me if you want details of how to do this and where to get the proper switch that is rated for 30 amps and costs about $50.00 delivered. Rowland


----------



## Wisconsin-Knight

I am pretty sure your problem with operating the A/C and the microwave is because you are running the hot water heater off electricity. Since at our first outing my wife kept blowing the breaker on the post with the microwave, I decided I would wire the hot water heater to a switch that would let me select outside extension cord or inside power for hot water heater. After this modification, I have 50 amps available to the trailer and I am still working off a 30 amp power cord. The wiring was minimal and I will be happy to help you if you decide to go this route. It has worked fine for me. I believe this is a mod everyone should do if they ever use shore power in a campground. I am an electronics technician and I don't believe running a microwave off batteries is a sensible approach, as mentioned by others. We live in Wisconsin and when we are not using our A/C, I don't have to hook up the extension cord. I would much rather have the regular 30 amp cord than have to deal with a 50 amp cord or rewire my distribution panel. We can run the microwave oven, the refrigerator, the TV, the A/C off the 30 amp supply with no problem. With my set up we can also run the hot water heater off electricity. It is bad when you don't remember to turn the hot water heater off prior to using the microwave. It is even worse when you don't remember to turn it back on again. My post is recent and is titled "Adding Power to a Travel Trailer" Rowland


----------



## Lmbevard

I was having problems with the A/C kicking out and sometimes kicking out the main in the camper. Cleaned the A/C unit which helped but still kicking things out too often. finally replaced the combined 30/20 amp breaker with a regular 30 amp and 20 amp. helped alot, but then started kicking out the 30 amp on the post. Finally bought a 50 amp to 30 amp cable converter so I could use the 50 amp plug on the post. Solved most of the problems. Some of the problems with electric in campgrounds is low voltage as more and more people uses power. as voltage goes down, Amps goes up and motors have to work harder. In older CG, the wiring may be too small or the connections corroded so that will effect amount of power. As far as adding a separate 20 amp service, you would still have to add a breaker on the inside of the camper. The proper way would be to convert over to a 50 amp service. It would take a new power box to replace the 30 amp power box and new heavier wiring to the outside of the camper but then could split the loads between the two legs.


----------



## clarkely

not sure if this was posted - but did you replace your breakers? you may simply have a "soft" breaker

Did you measure what your draw is on AC and on micro with a meter?

did you check incoming power out of main to make sure that is correct? I do not have this problem........... i have heard of friends with newer units with the outside Camp Kitchen and a second frig having the problem.......


----------



## LaydBack

I've decided to make this my mod for the offseason. I've found the WF-8930/50 power distribution panel for $41, and a 36' cordset rated at 50A for $119, both w/ shipping. In the 312BH, the cord stores in the bottom of the pantry between the 2 slides. My plan is to mount the new distribution panel in one of the sides of the pantry, and refeed the original power center off of a 30A breaker in this one. My unit is currently at the dealer to have the black tank replaced (don't ask), so while the underbelly is off, I'm going to, or going to have them to run a 3/4" flexible raceway from the existing power center, to the cord storage area. I'll use this to run circuits over to the original panel area, where I'll transfer some of the heavy loads (water heater, microwave, AC) off of the 30A panel to the 50A panel, and split up some of the other circuits if possible. I'll try to get the converter on it's own circuit, and I'm thinking that if the refrigerator only draws 4-5 amps, I'll try to put it and the microwave or the outside refrigerator on their own shared 20A circuit, if they're wired with 12 awg wire. I'm also gonna add the receptacles to the sides of the pantry, and make that 2 separate circuits. In the end, for about $200, I should be able to run all electric without discretion, and basically just use gas for cooking and occaisionally heating. The savings on propane ought to make this payoff rather soon. If I add the 2 circuits to the pantry, I ought to be able to run 2 space heaters easily in the colder months, and I'll be able to run a portable AC unit to assist the rooftop unit, in the hotter months, and still run the water heater on electric. I figure I can somehow get the condensate drain line for the portable AC squeezed out of 1 of the slides, without pinching it off. I just have to come up with something for removing the exhaust.....trying to come up with something that doesn't require me to make a permanent hole in the Outback. I'm thinking I can make an insert for the small rear window in the bunkhouse, and just pop it in where the screen goes. My alternative to this, is to replace the 13.5 btu AC unit with a 15 btu unit, and just sell the 13.5, or install both on the roof......sounds like a hole in the Outback, and a lot of work. So far, the only downside I'm seeing to any of this, is that I have 30A extension cord and adapters, and a 30A hardwired SurgeGuard that's only seen 1 short camping season, that I'll have to part with, and replace with a 50A model. If anyone's interested in any of it, PM/email me. I'm not going to post any of it in the classified area until I get it out of the camper.


----------



## LaydBack

I changed the plan a little bit..... I upgraded to the 15K BTU unit. I had the 13.5K BTU moved over to where the Fantastik Fan was installed near the stove, and had the Fantastik Fan installed in the bathroom. This way, the 15K unit will be the ducted unit, and the 13.5K unit will blast the living area. It has controls on the unit and the 15K works off of the thermostat. I had the dealer do the work on the roof, and I did the job of getting the electric to the relocated 13.5K unit. That saved a bunch of $$$$, as the hard part of the job is getting the power to it. For all the work they did istalling the new unit and relocating the original unit and Fantastik Fan, I paid 1.5 hours labor. I also had them run the raceway through the underbelly for the 50A service upgrade, while they were replacing the black tank. The new Surge Guard should arrive tomorrow, and this project will be in full swing. Here's some of the pics.


----------



## LaydBack

More progress.....almost done
































All in all, not a bad 3-4 days of modding. I got the new AC unit wired. I totally broke up the electrical circuitry to give us unlimited scenarios of not tripping a breaker.

The bunkhouse receptacles have been put on a seperate circuit than the bedroom/entertainment center receptacles. The GFCI circuit has the kitchen receptacle removed and put on it's own circuit. The old panel is now fed from the new panel on a 30A breaker, and now only feeds the water heater, converter, refrigerator, microwave, all of which are on their own circuits. I added a receptacle on each side of the linen closet, each on their own circuit. Each of the AC units are on their own circuits. Aside from seeing the added panel and the 2 added receptacles, the rest looks untouched. For those contemplating the receptacles on the linen closet, be advised that each side of the closet has a double wall, and there's only about 3/4" between the layers. Here's a pic of that, and a few more of other steps along the way.









Microwave cabinet after removing kitchen receptacle from original GFCI circuit








New J-box under stove where I did most of the splicing.








Power routing through refrigerator access








I've got more pics, if anyone is interested in anything in particular. To the best of my knowledge, for those interested in the receptacle circuitry, it appears that on my unit, for the regular receptacle circuit, they left the panel and went to the receptacle on the bunkhouse rear wall, then to the one in the bunkhouse cabinetry....refrigerator.....entertainment center.....bedroom slide side receptacle, then bedroom door side receptacle. The GFCI circuit, I believe went to the bathroom GFCI first obviously, then to the kitchen, then the outside TV receptacle, then outdoor kitchen counter, and last, outdoor kitchen refrigerator. I broke/intercepted the regular receptacle circuit in the refrigerator access where the original refrigerator receptacle was. I broke/intercepted the GFCI circuit in the microwave cabinet. Everything basically got fished down the left side of the refrigerator. The kitchen counter receptacle is protected by a GFCI breaker in the new 50A panel. I don't think you could get a box big enough for a regular GFCI to fit in that location.


----------



## LaydBack

The new cord hatch came today and I installed it, and that makes me officially done. It's opening is big enough (6.25" x 6.75") that I can actually reach in and form the cord as I put it in. I can also see the LEDs on the Surge Guard through the new hatch, in case it needs to be viewed. At $9.99 shipped, that was much better than the $30+ that the RV centers want, and I didn't have to do the expensive marine cord type setup. There's also plenty of room in the space for me to put adapters and such in.

Now that it's done, I think it'll prove to be very worthwhile. Last summer we camped once in June, 4th of July, and not again until mid September. Now I feel like we are equipped to make the best of the entire season, even the heat of July and August. Spreading the electrical loads will definitely give more flexibility in using things throughout the camper, without constantly having to turn something off to turn something else on. It's great to know that there are so many more things we can do now, and not have to worry about stressing the 30A system. For those of you who aren't totally getting the whole electric scope of this, let's just make it make sense numerically.

Watts (W) are essentially how much power you are using/consuming. It is the product of Volts (V) x Amps (A). In my original setup, the TT had a 120 V service rated at 30 A, so if you maxxed it out, you could consume 3600 W (120 x 30 = 3600). With my new setup, the TT now has a 240V service rated at 50A giving me the potential to use up to 12,000 W, more than 3 times what the original service would allow. That all comes into play when you consider the essential loads in the TT: water heater 1440 W, AC 1900 W, microwave 1350 W, refrigerator 330 W, and converter 1380 W (potentially based on input current). That totals 6400 W, and you haven't plugged in anything. For me, add another 1900 W, and I'm at 8300W, running both ACs. Now, I can run all those items simultaneously, and still have room for TV(s), coffee pot, electric skillet, griddle, blender, whatever.....not that we're not out to enjoy camping, but we now have a lot more options. Now, think about camping in cold weather. Most electric heaters run at about a max of 1500 W. With the way that I've broken the circuits up and added circuits, subtract 3800 W from the 8300 W (wouldn't be using the ACs when I'd be trying to heat the trailer), and I'm back at 4500 W of consumption with the other essentials. I can easily accomodate up to 4 electric heaters, 5 if I cycle one with the microwave. I really think that 3 would do it for most cold situations that I'd want to camp in, and I think 3 would have it pretty cozy.

As I stated earlier, I had the dealer do all of the roof work for just under $200. None of the rest of it was hard or strenuous, it just took a little thinking on fishing power cable through some of the areas, and electrical knowledge to figure out where/how to break the circuits up. Once I figured out how I thought things were wired together, I broke a couple of splices to confirm it, and then proceeded to get the new power to those locations. Obviously, it helped that I had the dealer run the raceway from under the stove (power center) to the new panel location, while they were replacing the black tank under warranty, but it wouldn't have taken much effort to open the underbelly, just more time.

Here's the last few pics.


----------



## LaydBack

Just wanted to do a bit of a follow up on the AC upgrade. Since we're experiencing record temperatures, I called the wife at lunch (noon) and told her to turn on the 15K BTU (ducted) AC unit. At that time she said that the stat in the trailer registered 91 and I believe my phone said about 100 at work. I got home at 4 and checked the stat in the trailer and it registered 81 and the trailer is comfortable as I sit here typing (wife said she'd probably dawn a light sweater, but I think she has body temperature issues....always cold). I stuck my thermometer on the outside of the window and it reads 101.  A 20 degree difference from ambient is pretty good. I turned the 2nd unit on lo cool and turned on the furnace blower, and within 10-12 minutes the stat in the trailer was at 77. Unfortunately I can't see how much lower it will drop because I've been lazy and never truly converted my power hookup to 50A, it's just the 30A 120V power wired to both hot legs of the 50A receptacle, and the breaker is tripping. I've run both on this setup before without issue, but today I guess the heat is playing a role. I don't doubt that it would approach 70 with both units running. I'm posting a pic to give an idea of shade/sun exposure. Also, didn't realize that when I told her to turn the unit on, the 2 original vents in the main area of the camper were closed, so the 81 reading was with just the bedroom and bunkhouse vents open, and the one I added at the front door.

Hopefully, this helps anyone trying to contemplate 15K BTU vs. 13.5K BTU. Personally, on a trailer this size, I think 2 is the way to go. I think the 15K unit is doing great to get the 20 degree differential in 100 degree temps with decent shade cover, but I like knowing it's got backup for when there's more bodies in the camper and 81 doesn't feel so comfy. As I finish this up with just the 15K unit and furnace blower on with all vents open, the stat is at 79 degrees and outside thermometer is still at 101.7. I guess the furnace blower mod gained me 2 degrees of comfort from just the AC unit.


----------

