# Can Anyone Offer Assistance In Calculating My Weight Specs?!



## Trofimenkoff (Jun 6, 2007)

Hi there,

This towing vehicles thing is all new to me and I'm trying to confirm (of course the dealer has assured us that we'll be fine, but now I'm not sure...) that our TV is acceptable for the 18RS we want to buy today. I've gone over all the calculator sites and all my vehicle specs and seem to be missing some items so I can't figure it out accurately. These are all the specs I can find:

TV:

2004 Buick Ranier SUV - V8 AWD

GVWR: 6001 lbs
Payload: 1153 lbs
Curb Weight (I think with empty tank?!):4848 lbs
Capacity: 1203 lbs
GCWR: 11,500 lbs
GAWR frt: 2950 lbs
GAWR rr: 3400 lbs

TT:

Outback 18RS

Hitch: 445 lbs
Shipping Weight: 4300 lbs
Carrying Capacity: 1700 lbs

If anyone is online right now that can help out I'd greatly appreciate it!!

Carmen


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## RizFam (Feb 25, 2006)

Try this........ Calculation Demonstrator

Tami


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## map guy (Jan 11, 2007)

Welcome to Outbackers.com - a great place!

Looking at the spec posted:
Curb weight is with a 150Lb driver no passengers or other payload. Fuel is not figured into curb weight. It is part of the payload.

Your 1153 payload -to stay within factory specs - is the limitation of weight for all passengers, fuel, stuff, and trailer tongue weight.

Again looking at the specs - if payload is maxed out you have 5,499 lbs capacity for the trailer left in the GCWR. Need to check your owners manual for Trailer Towing specs for the vehicle

The 18RS has a GVW of 6000 - Shipping plus carrying capacity. Tongue weight is part of this 6000 that is carried by the tow vehicle. Tongue weight is probably understated too. More likely to be closer to 600 lbs if two batteries and a full load of propane are present.

Your tow rig in my opinion is a little small / lite but depending on the terrain traveled and your need/level of safety margin may be acceptable to you. You wouldn't want to go up the trans Canada to Revelstoke with this setup IMO.

Map Guy


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## Highlander96 (Mar 1, 2005)

the Russian and the Greek said:


> Hi there,
> 
> This towing vehicles thing is all new to me and I'm trying to confirm (of course the dealer has assured us that we'll be fine, but now I'm not sure...) that our TV is acceptable for the 18RS we want to buy today. I've gone over all the calculator sites and all my vehicle specs and seem to be missing some items so I can't figure it out accurately. These are all the specs I can find:
> 
> ...


Just a ballpark, but you are going to be right close. Figure it this way. Number one. Don't trust the weight numbers from the Keystone Website.

Two: Take your curb weight, add fuel weight, roughly 8 lbs per gallon, add the weight of your passengers and your towing gear (hitch). Now subtract that from your GVW. It doesn't leave you much wiggle room.

i.e. Take a 180 lb. male driver and a 120 lb. female passenger and add another 200 lbs in fuel. Subtract that from your GVW of 6001. That gives you 5348 curb weight leaves you 653 lbs of cargo capacity. Barely enough for the tongue weight.

We haven't even gotten to Gross Combined Vehicle Weight (GCWR). Using your GCWR of 11,500 and subtracting the passenger curb weight gives you a towable trailer rating of 6152 lbs. Using the Keystone GVW weight of the 18RS at 6000 lbs. You squeak by with 152 lbs.

Can you tow it....Yes.

Would I tow it.....No

It is your choice. You will, more than likely kill that Buick within 5000 miles. It is just not geared to tow.

Good Luck!

Tim


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## map guy (Jan 11, 2007)

More info from Trailer Life Towing guide:

Rainier 4.2L I-6 6,200/6,000 11,000
5.3L V-8 6,700/6,500 11,500

AWD has a trailer capacity of 6500 if 5.3 V8

Map Guy


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## bentpixel (Sep 2, 2006)

also from Link-lake.com

Curb weight: 
The weight of an unmanned vehicle without cargo, but including fuel, necessary fluids, and all standard equipment.

Scott


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## Trofimenkoff (Jun 6, 2007)

Thanks everyone... based on your responses, it seems we're now in a bit of a pickle... I went over all this at the dealership this afternoon (before I was able to read your responses) and was assured that we could safely (for the health of the vehicle as well) tow this trailer, they also assured me that the tongue weight would not make that much difference loaded (with fuel and battery) overall. Of course we wanted the trailer, so based on my discussions today at the dealership, we closed the deal.









So... now I have two people of the opinion that we're going to damage our vehicle towing this trailer or else be unsafe because we'll be hitting our TV's max CVW, and one who thinks we'll be OK!!!







One thing is for certain, we can't replace our TV right now as we're in a lease for another year. Thanks again, perhaps I'll start another topic and take a poll!!









Carmen


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## bentpixel (Sep 2, 2006)

Close can still be safe. I think your fine. The 18RS is too small to carry too many toys. You only have the three of you in your sig.

Tow capacity I read maxed at 6700lbs the 18RS at 6000.








Let's allow 400lb for passangers and four-footed child. If the TT is loaded 
to the limit then anything over 252lbs in the TT is over GCWR. Allowing 600lbs of tongue
weight before WD hitch will net only about 400lbs bearing on the TV and 200lbs
sprung back to the TT. So with max trailer load you 148lbs over GCWR.









There is a sticker inside the TT that has the lp/water tank weights when full. I always 
use those numbers full or not. So 415 for Fresh Water, 270 for LP and 148 for safety totals
833lbs. Lastly, 1700lbs capacity less 833lb load leaves 867lbs for food, luggage and toys.









Now for every pound of that 867 you don't put in the TT you can put in the TV, 
or the reverse, if you add to the TV better subtract from the OB. By my cals you can carry about 14lbs more than our combo. 
And we haven't packed more than 400lbs food and luggage for a weekend stay.

So my suggestion would be to leave the pool table , weight lifting set, and oak wet bar at home.









Sorry...







dunno who typed that last line.









You didn't ask about anti-sway devices, but (here's my $.02's) I will recommend the Hensley Arrow because it seems to makeup for the lack of weight to surface area. Downside the HA is $$$pendy.








Anything is better than a friction bar, and either the Equalizer or the Dual Cam hitch should serve you well.

Smaller trailers can dance around more than their larger cousins. This last balancing can really make the difference between an easy pull and a white knuckle flight. My experience with dealers leaves me to believe that they think every road is flat, crosswinds are a myth, and traffic has no effect on the trailer.







Pushing 40lbs of cargo aft or forward of the TT axle maybe the final tuning trick for you. Good Luck.

I think you going to have a great time with this setup. And, if I have made an error here I do apologize. I'm also sure that any error on my part *will *be pointed out.







We all want the same out come: a safe journey. At some point you going to go the scales before you tackle the BIG trip.

Congrats on the 18RS,
Scott

p.s. Sorry this post is so long, but wanted to know if I could pass the (un)written test here.


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## Trofimenkoff (Jun 6, 2007)

Thanks for your comments Scott,

Although the sticker on the side of my Ranier CXL AWD V8 states a GVWR of 6001 lbs, and a payload of 1153 lbs, and my manual states a max trailer weight of 6500 lbs witha GCWR of 11,500 lbs. So... bear with me here - I'm looking at a combo weight distribution/anti-sway package that costs about $650 (dealer says this is the best he's got), but I'm not sure what those things weigh - this should also be included in the tongue weight, correct? You lost me a bit with the

"If the TT is loaded to the limit then anything over 252lbs in the TT is over GCWR. Allowing 600lbs of tongue weight before WD hitch will net only about 400lbs bearing on the TV and 200lbs
sprung back to the TT. So with max trailer load you 148lbs over GCWR" 

part though...Isn't the full tongue weight transferred to the TV? I didn't realize it was distributed between the TT and the TV. Regardless, say accounting for the tow package as well, my tongue weight is about 800 lbs (as I said I can reasonably estimate the propane, battery weights but no idea about the hitch equipment), and say (if the weight as you say, is divided abit between the TT and the TV) then I subtract 600 lbs from my payload of 1153 on the TV, I'm left with 553 lbs of payload to cover gas weight, Demetri, Max and I. Pretty much maxing out the GVWR of the TV. Then for the TT, I've got 1700 payload minus the tongue weight then of 200 lbs, which leaves me with 1500 lbs before maxing out the TT GVWR of 6000 (TT dry weight of 4,300 lbs plus 1,700 carrying capacity). I've been told it would be pretty tough even with the water tanks full to use of 1,500 lbs of load. So say out load weight is only about 1000 lbs, I'm still uner the TT GVWR, and therefore 500 lbs under the GCWR. Does that make sense or am I stil missing something you said above that I don't understand?!!









Crap, this is stressing me out! Bottom line, from these calculations I should be OK and come in under the GCWR, but we do have some hills and logging roads around here that we'll be traveling on and I don't want to burn out the TV or be in any danger...any further thoughts or ammendments to you calcuations?



bentpixel said:


> Close can still be safe. I think your fine. The 18RS is too small to carry too many toys. You only have the three of you in your sig.
> 
> Tow capacity I read maxed at 6700lbs the 18RS at 6000.
> 
> ...


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## bentpixel (Sep 2, 2006)

> "If the TT is loaded to the limit then anything over 252lbs in the TT is over GCWR. Allowing 600lbs of tongue weight before WD hitch will net only about 400lbs bearing on the TV and 200lbs
> sprung back to the TT. So with max trailer load you 148lbs over GCWR"


Yeah sorry I didn't mark this out very well. 
Starting with GCWR less TT GVWR less Curb weight less passengers leaves cargo capacity of the TV. 1150 - 6000 - 4848 - 400 = 252 (BTW, hate to disagree with MAPGUY but curb weight includes fuel, dry weight does not.)

Ok the 252lbs for the TV and 1700 lbs for OB are total max load figure. Some of the load can be moved to the TV (up to TV GVRW of 6001). So your TV cargo max is 6001 - 4848 - 400 = 753 and TT now is limited to: the TT capacity 1700 - cargo in TV 753 + (credit for TV capacity) 252 = 1199lbs of cargo capacity in the trailer.









These are two extremes one load the TT to the max the other the TV and still stay under GCWR. You are correct to note that hitch weight is added to the trailer and tongue. But tongue weight is part of the dry weight not payload.









The hitch weight before WD will put the on the rear axle and lift the front a bit. The WD setup goal is to distribute the tongue weight more or less evenly. (rule of thirds: 1/3 fr, 1/3 rr, 1/3 tt) So only about 2/3 of the tongue weight is counted against TV cargo. Cool, eh?

I cannot carry max everything with my combo. And I don't need to either. 
I believe that you have 867lbs of capacity to include your hitch, food, luggage, and toys. That V-8 should do just fine pulling hills. Relax, you seem to understand this stuff better that you think.

BTW, which WD / Anti-sway system are you getting. My dealer only had junk to sell - friction bar.









For $650 I think your in the same price range as an Equalizer or a Reese dual-cam.









Feel free to PM for more info if I am helping at all.

Scott


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## Outback DeLand (May 6, 2007)

I don't know if you made a decision about which system to use, but I HIGHLY recommend the Hensley Arrow system. It is the only Anti-sway system there is. It works! We have had it on our TT for since July '05 when we bought it, and I wouldn't put anything else on it. We did the reseach, and my family owned several other systems prior to this that were not anywhere near as effective. It is worth every penny!!! You can get on the website www.hensleyarrow.com and they will send you a free DVD explaining their system.

Personal experiences: 
When we pass big rigs or other large vehicles, the trailer stays in line with the truck and does not sway or pull towards the rig.

I (Anita) drive it all the time. In the mountains and on curvy and hilly roads. I totally trust it! I was terrified to drive pulling a trailer with any of the other systems.

Last year, on our way from Dillard, GA, to Stone Mountain, the electric brakes came unplugged early that day (unbeknownst to us). I drove it up and down the mountains with absolutely no problems and no sway. The trailer stayed right behind the truck, even when I put the brakes on hard.

Take my advice and get the Hensley! You can even mention our names when you call (Mike and Anita Cambron).









Anita


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## Highlander96 (Mar 1, 2005)

I didn't say you could not do it. I simply stated that I would not do it.

I killed a Jeep Grand Cherokee with my boat and almost killed my wife's Ford Explorer with our 21RS. You are going to be close to your max. However, you probably wiil be fine.

Check out www.rvtowingtips.com and look for the spreadsheet calculator. You can plug in your numbers and get actual weight distribution.

Lastly, everyone here is using the Max trailer Rating from GM. That number is a Ball Park. To get the real trailer weight you need to subtract the loaded weight of the tow vehicle from the gross combined weight rating.

i.e. GCWR is 11,500 and actual loaded vehicle weight is 5300, you can olny tow a vehicle weighing up to 6200 lbs.

Now, you have to remember that the more tongue weight that you add the faster you will exceed the GVW of the tow vehicle.

That is my a lot of us like to have a 20% margin of error to adjust for loads.

Good Luck,

Tim


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## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

I think you'll be ok but you may want to consider a larger tow vehicle in the future. I don't know if you need a $3,500 hitch to control sway in a 20 foot trailer. A Reese Dual Cam or one of the others would probably do just fine. Watch how you load the trailer and take it easy on any hills. You may also want to weigh the trailer first thing after picking it up. A lot of folks think Keystone is way off on their reported weight, but our two Outbacks have been dead-on with the sticker in the kitchen cabinet (can you imagine the liability issue if Keystone negligently stated the weight of the trailer and somebody crashed because of that?). It's nice to verify that anyway for future reference.


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## map guy (Jan 11, 2007)

map guy said:


> More info from Trailer Life Towing guide:
> 
> Rainier 4.2L I-6 6,200/6,000 11,000
> 5.3L V-8 6,700/6,500 11,500
> ...


Your Buick can tow this trailer physically but you will need to be cautious/conservative in your driving practices and keep the brakes on both TV and trailer in top notch condition. Consider adding an aftermarket transmission cooler to help the transmission live to the lease end. Your operating conditions are a little more extreme than most here understand - forest roads and mountain passes / extended grades up/down abound on Vancouver Island and everywhere in BC. You are at or near the factory tow rating so have little safety margin for mistake/malfunction/miscalculation. Indeed the weights posted in the cabinet - the certification weight - is much more accurate than the sales brochure or online specifications listed.

Bentpixels claim that fuel is included in curb weight may or may-not be correct -Dodge specifies fuel in curb weight specs - I can't find by any quick online searches what items GM includes in curb weight. Weighting your tow vehicle with a full camping load, including fuel might be a prudent move. I will let you be the judge of this









My original opinion was based on the overall combination of data and the knowledge of roads on the Island and elsewhere in BC - Burned up the brakes on a 34' Motorhome near Revelstoke and I have many years of CDL driving under my belt. It was a minor mistake in judgement but it cost several $ to fix, several minutes to settle the white knuckles down and a couple of days of unplanned camping in a parking lot.

Because of the motorhome experience and other experiences driving truck/trailer combinations have made me a more cautious / conservative driver as I grow older .......

This is all my opinion and worth about 2 cents maybe, so use it it at your discretion.

Map Guy


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

I just had to throw this in...You mentioned that your dealer had a hitch that he considered his "best" for $650.00. Find out if it is the Equal-i-zer brand hitch. You can buy these on rvwholesalers.com all day long for $399.99 with no tax and free shipping to your door. So easy to install that I did it myself


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## Fire44 (Mar 6, 2005)

Curb weight is the truck sitting at the curb, with all of the factory installed equipment and a full tank of fuel.

There is also Model weight which is curb weight plus 150 pounds per seating position. The easy way to remember this is curb weight is the truck at the curb really to go...Model weight is the truck at the curb full of models!!!

Gary


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## Trofimenkoff (Jun 6, 2007)

Thank you all again for your comments and advice - while varied, it has all been extremely helpful and educational!

Based on the poll results thus far, your input, and a lengthy conversation with my original TV dealer in Calgary today, we've sadly decided to pull the plug on our Outback purchase and look for something lighter so we won't have to worry so much. As map guy mentioned, we have some serious roads here on Vancouver Island and the last thing we need to be doing is stressing about our brakes, tire pressure, weight distribution in TV etc. I'm very sad though, because I have fallen in love with the Outback and now everything else looks second rate







So if anyone has any suggestions for a good light-weight TT alternative, we'd be very interested to hear them.








Best wishes and happy trails to you all!


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## bill_pfaff (Mar 11, 2005)

I wouldn't pull the plug on the OB just yet.

I'm hauling a 25rss with the configuration noted in my signature and I'll be the first to admit I'm right on the edge of my towing tolerances if not over however; I am aware of my status and I drive accordingly. No more the 60 MPH, leave 2-3 times the braking distance between me and the guy ahead, stay on my oil changes and when conquering hills remember that I'm not in a race and the guy blowing his horn behind me needs to take a chill pill.

I have been doing this going into our 4th year now and have gone from Delaware to NY state to Maine to Myrtle Beach SC with not a single problem.

If you can do a new TV next year then just take it easy for this year. How much are you going to use it over the next 3-4 months? If it is a reasonable amount, you keep the trips fairly close to home (2-3 hours & no cross country) and you drive conservatively I think you'll be fine.

Not trying to sway you, just my 2 cents because like on any ship or aircraft, you are the captain and, just like for my vessel, have to do what is best.

Good luck and let us know how it comes out.


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## Humpty (Apr 20, 2005)

bill_pfaff said:


> I'll be the first to admit I'm right on the edge of my towing tolerances if not over however


Bill:

We towed an 05 28BHS for 2 years with the an 04 Burb 5.3 3.73. I put it on the scale when fully loaded less water and was under all ratings - though not by much. I bet you are better off than we were! We stayed relatively close to home (no farther than 5 hours) and stayed out of the mountains, but did fine. 3rd gear, 60 - 65 MPH - 9 MPG or less.

Don't forget to change your Transmission fluid. We did every year.

Chris


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## bill_pfaff (Mar 11, 2005)

Thanks for the info Chris.

Like I said, I take it pretty easy, use synthetic oil, keep up on the oil changes, tow only in towing mode, ya-da, ya-da, ya-da.

I'd be a lot happier if I was running a 2500 with a big ol' Duramax in it so that I could be the guy blowing the doors off me as I passed myself going up a 10% grade in the mountains of New England butâ€¦â€¦ it is what it is and it is a lot better than sitting home crying in my beer milk.


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## map guy (Jan 11, 2007)

Fire44 said:


> Curb weight is the truck sitting at the curb, with all of the factory installed equipment and a full tank of fuel.
> 
> There is also Model weight which is curb weight plus 150 pounds per seating position. The easy way to remember this is curb weight is the truck at the curb really to go...Model weight is the truck at the curb full of models!!!
> 
> Gary


Gary
Thanks for the clarification on curb weight and help remembering model weight









Map Guy


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