# Holding Tank Meters & Stereo



## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

As part of my recent horror story dealing with the service department of General RV of Wixom, I was told that

1) Even though the stereo is hooked up in mono and the balance controls do nothing, it's per factory specs.

and

2) Even though the meters on both my alleged 30 gallon grey holding tanks show 1/3 at 5 gallons, full at 15 gallons, etc., everything looks correct.

I'm wondering what others are experiencing on these two items, particular 2006 models with the same setup.

The radio is a square job with CD player mounted into the overhead cabinet area.

I'm not so concerned about the stereo, but my position on the meters is that either they're not working or I have 15 gallon holding tanks. In either case I want it fixed. Last time I stopped the test at 15 gallons, next time I'm out with a full hookup I'll see how much before it starts backing up into the shower (which I've learned, because I have no useable meters, is what happens when that one is full.)


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## hurricaneplumber (Apr 12, 2004)

Radios do stink except for newest Jensen style.

Here is the best tank gauge method.

When shower drain fills up, gray tank is full.
Look down the toilet to check level.


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## LarryTheOutback (Jun 15, 2005)

BoaterDan said:


> 1) Even though the stereo is hooked up in mono and the balance controls do nothing, it's per factory specs.
> [snapback]55152[/snapback]​


Our radio operates in stereo. Balance works (left-right). Fade does too (though front and back are reversed).

AM failed and was replaced; check it out on your unit as it is a common failure. We have an early 2006 (some new features, not all).

Ed


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

Yes of course, but that's B.S. Keystone puts meters on this thing, and they should work.

By that logic I could turn on the furnace at home when I feel cold and ditch my thermostat. Why do automobile manufacturers put gas guages on their vehicles when we can just get gas when it runs out?

And so on.

I'm being facetious of course. I guess if nothing else I want the satisfaction of having a Keystone rep admit they're useless.

I'm having a rash of pathetic customer service lately, and maybe I've lost my mind. Don't get me started about the little punk at the Wendy's drive-through window last night.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Man Dan! You are on a roll!









THE RADIO: I have heard that they are wired in mono, I have never really checked mine to see. We don't use it that much. When we do, it is such a low end unit, I don't think stereo would make much difference.

THE TANK GAUGES:
My experience is that they are...and are not... acurate. This depends on a number of things. Mostly on how well you manage to keep the sensors clean (especially in the black water tank). It also depends on how long it has been since the trailer has been moved. When we get to a site, our tanks will read full, even if there is only a little in them. The water has been sloshing around and the sensors are wet. Check them again in half an hour, and they will be more accurate.

Also, I would not be so quick to blame Keystone for this one. I believe this is typical of the beast, whomever makes it. In regards to your analogy of not needing gas gauges in our cars, because we can just drive them until the gas runs out, you are correct. But I have yet to see an automobile gas gauge that is truly linear either. I've had cars that could get 300 miles on the first 1/2 tank - according to the gauge - and be lucky to get another 75 on the second 1/2. So, I guess it is all a matter of getting 'in tune' with your Outback.

Or not...









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## drose (Jul 26, 2005)

Radio and CD player work great.

As for the meters they seem to be pretty acurate. They sure beat my parents old camper where you had to climb under the couch to look at the water tank to see how much water we had left.

Darren


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

My Jensen stereo has both balance and fade working. Correct wiring should be an easy straightforward procedure. Years ago, many of us installed aftermarket car stereos (which is what the Jensen stereo in the Outbacks happens to be). Nothing too difficult about that.

It should be a simple matter to re-wire it correctly. But, General RV is not accurate about Keystone wiring all units in mono. They may have seen other improperly wired examples, but I suspect most were done the right way (unless it was Friday or the black tank - grey tank handle guy was promoted to wiring stereos.

Tank gauges are troublesome for many folks. "Debris" gets hung up on the sensors which leads to problems. But you are correct: they are there for a reason and should read accurately enough to be useful. Owner maintenance consisting of tank flushing usually gets the sensors working acceptably well.

Bill


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## huntr70 (Jul 8, 2005)

My radio worked in stereo...balance was ok to.....that was when the radio was working.

TT is now at dealer having radio replaced because of the "Phantom" that was turning it on whenever it wanted to.

My gauges pretty much just give a rough estimate...as do all gauges on all TT's.

Steve


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## mswalt (Sep 14, 2004)

Will be checking my radio when I get it back later this week. From what I remember, though, it seemed to work fine. Didn't try a cd yet. Will have to remember to take one with me to the storage lot.

I'm with Dan, though, when it comes to the tanks. I think the gauges should *work*.









Mark


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## Katrina (Dec 16, 2004)

I don't think the 31's come with the Jenson stereo which is the only one to ever be wired in true stereo in an Outback.


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## bweiler (Sep 20, 2005)

Just took delivery of my 25 a few weeks ago and have had no radio issues, but agrre that the holding tank sensors give you some interesting readings after travel. This site had some great suggestions on keeping the sensors cleaned up. The calgon water softener seemed to help a lot. We feel for you on the General issues. We drove to NW Ohio to get our 25. Well worth it for great service-


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## Ghosty (Jan 17, 2005)

Radio is wired in STEREO -- I mean -- why the hell would they wire them in mono when they run all the speaker wires to the radio ... anyway -- mine is stereo -- but i did purchase new PIONEER 4 1/2 speakers for the trailer -- and they sound great --

FYI -- the replacement cost on the speakers that come with the trailer is 4.37 cents .. that should tell you what great quality these are...


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## HootBob (Apr 26, 2004)

My radio works fine (stereo). 
But the speakers are going to get replaced during the winter.

Don


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## slickaroo (Sep 11, 2005)

I do not have the jenson and mine works in Stereo also. Out of three different campers I have never seen very accurate tank guages. I mainly just pay attention when the full light comes on and dont wory about the ones in between







.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Remember too, with the 'gauges', that they are only a series of four LED's, not actual analog - or even digital - gauges. Figuring a 30 gallon tank, you are only going to have a resolution of about plus or minus 5 gallons. A 10 gallon spread, or to put it another way, 1/3 of the tank. You just can't expect much accuracy with that sort of setup.

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

When I did the tank test it was on my very first trip out using the bleach water from the sanitization process. In other words there was no "debris" in there and the trailer had been sitting still for about six hours.

I think most of you are missing the point and giving Keystone too much of a pass. I'm not talking about being able to even get a "rough estimate." I'm talking about a situation like the gas gauge in your car showing empty when there's still half a tank, and only 1/2 full after you fill it up. That's a totally different thing from noting that the second half goes faster than the first. Not a single one of us would put up with that in our car, but we're supposed to accept it in our TT?

Here's the absolute best I could do right now.
- Tank shows full after 1 day
- I know it's really only half full, so I should have 1 day left with same usage.
- When water backs up the drain it's full.

Come on, that's not a little innacurate, that's completely useless.


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## hurricaneplumber (Apr 12, 2004)

Conductivity sensors are not the best for a very long and short tank, but they are the best value for cost and function. Keystone could install a better system but then you would complain because your camper costs $300 more to get the system that is more accurate. Remember it is only a camper.

In your testing, make sure that the tank is completly empty before starting, again the long tank takes some time to drain, it will trickle for a long time, which is a lot of water still in the tank. And check trailer level when draining, you may not be emptying the tank all the way.

Good luck


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

The tanks had never been used except during the PDI, and I witnessed the tech leave all the drains open for over an hour.

But I see what you're saying - if they're mounted on the narrow end of a rectangular tank that is relatively short (as we know it is) then a tilt of even a few degrees would make them off by quite a bit.

Can anybody that's been under there comment on that? Where are they located and what is the shape of the tanks?


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## Roloaddict (Oct 29, 2004)

Stereo - DH replaced the speakers.

Tank Gauges - When the trailer was about 2 months old, the gauges stopped giving accruate readings. We have done the water softener etc with no changes. I just keep track of volume in/out. It works fine when you are camping with hookups or just out for a weekend. However, I agree that if the gauge is installed, it should work.
H.


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## camping479 (Aug 27, 2003)

Ask and you shall receive









You can see in the photo where the wires are attached to the sensor in the tanks. They are in kind if a staggered pattern.

I've seen sensor replacement kits that are available to replace the existing ones. It's a pad that attaches with adhesive to the side of the tank and is supposed to be much more accurate than the old style. It retrofits the existing panel in the trailer and reads battery level as well as propane levels if you add a sensor to your propane tanks.

Mike


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## BigBadBrain (Aug 26, 2004)

Another factor - the tanks are flat, wide and long. If there is any slope to them, they could read incorrectly. Again, not much you can do about this until someone invents a more effective way to tell how much is in the tank no matter what the conditions are. The only way I could imagine that is if one were to use a strain guage on the mounting straps and then the calibration and consistency... nevermind. Mine work OK. I don't expect them to be much more than a reminder to empty the tanks or fill them if I need fresh water and it isn't available at the site.

I guess I've gotten used to owning a TT - not an exact science. The Outback is a lot better than my Dutchman ever was.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

You see Brian, there you go with that aerospace engineering mind of yours again!
I had been thinking of mounting the tanks in a laser-gyro stabilized 3-axis gimbal arrangement.









But a load cell would be much simpler, and cheaper.









Just goes to show, thinking outside the box always pays off!









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

Doug, I go even simpler. Since I do not dry camp, I dump the grey when the shower does not drain and for the black, I look in the dark hole called the turlet to check.









John


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## Katrina (Dec 16, 2004)

Myself, I find a dipstick to be incredibley accurate.


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

Yeah, ok. Mike if I'm looking at the right thing it looks like no more than an inch vertically between each "level". So as I said earlier just a little tilt would throw them off quite a bit.


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## huntr70 (Jul 8, 2005)

I would also assume that a gasoline tank in an auto is using a float sensor. Don't these sensor read right through the tank wall of the gray and black tanks???

Steve


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## Katrina (Dec 16, 2004)

huntr70 said:


> I would also assume that a gasoline tank in an auto is using a float sensor. Don't these sensor read right through the tank wall of the gray and black tanks???
> 
> Steve
> [snapback]55390[/snapback]​


They don't read "through" the wall. Picture a screw through the tank with a wire on it. You end up with a small piece of metal on the inside at each level that detects moisture. The tanks are only 5 or 6 inches tall so the sensors are only about an inch above each other.
A float type thing in the fresh tank would prolly work pretty good. Not such a good idea for the black tank though.


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## hurricaneplumber (Apr 12, 2004)

These are my gray tank sensors. As you can see the black tarp material I was referring to, the ductwork is above this. This is what I was meaning, hard for heat to get to the valves or tank.

Speaking of all this tank jumbo, the secretive mod I have been evaluating lately is to replace my gray tank with a larger one. I have found what I believe to be a good fit but will do some measuring when the season ends in a few weeks. We will see if the idea materializes or not.


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

This is what I learned last night when Chris came out while I was hooking up my trailer (and I played nice)...

He said the tank sensors not working is probably the #1 complaint they get in the service department.

As Katrina said, they are basically electrical contacts poking throught he side. Chris said even soap scum coating them can throw them off. He said letting some bleach water slosh around in there every once in a while will help keep things clean.

Also, you can test the operation of the meter itself by simply grounding the sensors at the wire connection on the outside. When a sensor is grounded that light on the gauge should light up. That tells you the sensor and gauge are working properly electrically and it's probably just something on the inside messing with the contact.


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## hurricaneplumber (Apr 12, 2004)

Since you mentioned soap scum, I must tell you about the greasy stuff I noticed in my gray tank. I have been comtemplating using some chemicals to scrub out the gray tank, just haven't done it yet.

I was surprised at the amount of gunk in the tank. Food grease residue and soap do build up.

Here is a aftermarket system I had looked into.TANK SENSORS


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

Would be interesting to mount those sensors on the other side of the tank from the stock ones and put the panels side by side. Wonder if this would prove to be more accurate overall and whether you could average the two panels to compensate for tilt.


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