# Jim Zumbo And His Opinions



## Bull Elk (Feb 28, 2005)

I am sure that there are fellow hunters on this website and maybe this is too hot of a topic. If so, I expect and hope that the moderators will shut it down. This article has me very upset with Cabelas and Remington. I have nothing against some of the other weapons that are available to the public, but I do not consider them to be the choice of true "Sportsmen". I have attached a link to an article and would like to know what some of the other Outback hunters think of this. Since when do we totally shut someone out due to an opinion. I am leaving this post on this camping website, because we all love the outdoors and I want to make sure that I am not losing it. Please keep it appropriate and civil. 
Thanks - Rich

http://www.tonydean.com/articles.html?sectionid=8296


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## huntr70 (Jul 8, 2005)

Thanks Rich........not sure how I missed this one!

Well, as a hunter that only owns manually operated shotguns and rifles, I would tend to agree with Jim.

Here in PA, it is illegal to use auto-loading rifles for hunting. Period. That takes ALMOST all assault type weapons out of the equation. How many people have hunted with a sporterized Enfield rifle?? At one time, they were military weapons....

I guess it is all in how you were brought up, what you were around, personal preferences.

As for me, I'll never be one to carry an M-16, Ar-15, UZI, or other "assault type" weapon in the field. Heck, I prefer my bow and arrows to the bolt action rifles that I own!!!

It is a real shame that someone that has dedicated his entire life to the preservation of hunting and the shooting sports has to take such a hit when he voices his opinion.

Steve


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## Bull Elk (Feb 28, 2005)

huntr70 said:


> Thanks Rich........not sure how I missed this one!
> 
> Well, as a hunter that only owns manually operated shotguns and rifles, I would tend to agree with Jim.
> 
> ...


Steve, 
I totally agree and I have sent civil e-mails to all the parties involved letting them know my thoughts on this. I also will make sure that any friends and family do the same. Maybe enough e-mails will help them to see the light.
Rich


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## firefighter320ms (Feb 19, 2007)

Wow, he made a statement in what he believed and got canned.

Well on the other hand, his statements puts the NRA on the spot along with any other gun organization that are fighting for our rights that include Target shooters and Hunters alike.

I do think he should have spoke to his production manager and his sponsers before making a public statement like that.


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## huntr70 (Jul 8, 2005)

Its a good thing Ted Nugent is so pro-NRA, or his production managers and sponsors would have canned him long ago.

He is the most freely speaking, un-edited person in the outdoors today, yet no one complains







I guess his free speech doesn't create friction.









Don't get me wrong, I am an NRA Life Member, and believe in gun ownership as well as the next guy, but to drop someone down like they did to Jim Zumbo for his opinion is just ridiculous.

Maybe if the NRA didn't protray EVERY SINGLE firearm ever made as a hunting tool, they wouldn't have to fight so hard to maintain gun ownership. My next hunting rifle is going to be the custom made .50 cal so I can kill a deer at 1/2 mile away.

Steve


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## Camping Fan (Dec 18, 2005)

huntr70 said:


> It is a real shame that someone that has dedicated his entire life to the preservation of hunting and the shooting sports has to take such a hit when he voices his opinion.
> 
> Steve


It seems to me that while proclaiming support of 2nd Amendment rights, the NRA has conveniently forgotten about Mr. Zumbo's 1st Amendment rights. Sounds like a double standard to me.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

If you are using an assault rifle type gun for hunting, isnt the max shell magazine only 5 rounds? If it is, then you are truely no more dangerous than a semi auto rifle.. But yea seeing a hunter with one of these guns is very spooky and intimidating.

I do agree that we should stick to hunting rifles, just for the fact that they dont look so intimidating. I have friends who use M1 Garands when hunting. These are a war type 30.06 gun mainly used for sniping. Should that be an illegal hunting gun? Those are one of the best long range guns ever produced..

Hunting in Colorado requires long range guns, as most game hunting is fairly long range here, as there is little ground cover in many places... I know people dont like long range shooters either, and thats about as touchy a subject as assault rifles used in hunting.

I do own both, but will never use my AK 47 for hunting. It is stored away for an investment, and personal protection only.. My hunting rifle is a single shot 30.06.. Thats really all you need.. My dad uses a semi auto .273 and that shouldnt be considered bad, but actually it is more deadly than a M15-16 that uses a .223 caliber, But an M15/16 sure looks much more intimidating than a .273 rifle.

Its too bad Jim has been lynched for giving his credible views.. Our world is just too over sensitive anymore especially when if comes to firearms.

Carey


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## jlbabb28 (Feb 27, 2006)

Well first off I have no issue of the taking of any varmint animal however you choose. I have several Colt sporters and they are very good varmint guns, (squirrels and coyotes) Accurate and effective. I donâ€™t feel that owning an AR or AK makes me a bad person. I have watched Jim Zumbo for many years and after reading this I understand he has a right to his opinion but when you paint with a broad brush youâ€™re going to cover more area than you may have intended. I think that is what he has done.

I am also a life member of NRA and I do believe that us terrorist AR owners have the same gun ownership rights as a single shot shotgun shooter, and thatâ€™s who the NRA is out to protect, EVERYONE. Would I hunt anything larger than Varmints with an AR...No, simply because as a hunter it's our job to kill our prey in the most effective way possible and I donâ€™t feel a .233 is the best way to do that.

Second there is a limit to the amount of rounds one can carry in there gun too. The Ruger Mini 14 .223 is classified as an assault rifle but I know every rancher around me carries one in there truck around the ranch. I love to hunt with the proper equipment, I also love my tactical weapons and I use each with care and responsibility, as a person that knows how to enjoy both sports described his comments offended me. He does have a right to an opinion but he should check with the people sponser and employ him. There opinion may not match his own. I know if a person under my employ went out and said bad things about a part I sell they would ne gone too.

My .02 Cents.

Jeff


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## Highlander96 (Mar 1, 2005)

It is not really what Zumbo said, but how he said it. However, he has opened Pandora's box.

Unfortunately, a Remington 1100 and Beretta 391 currently fall under the classification of Assault Weapons in Maryland's legislation. If you give the Anti's 1/10000 of a millimeter they will run with it.

I disagree with AR/AK type weapons for hunting. However, as a competitive shooter who has been on the 1000 yard line at Camp Perry, I have to say that there is a civilized used for these tools.

Pretty soon, if we let them, the Kreighoff K80 that I am about to order will be classified as an assault weapon since it will fire two shots.

FWIW,

Tim

There is a reason that Beretta Model 92's are manufactured in Maryland, but their final assembly point is in Fredericksburg, VA.


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## map guy (Jan 11, 2007)

Political Correctness required the NRA and show sponsors to respond this way. Divide and conquer is tactic #1 used by any zealot group to make even .0001 inch headway on their political agenda. Sorry to see it happen but politics is just that way......

Map Guy


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## FraTra (Aug 21, 2006)

Wow! Too bad. I remember reading Zumbo articles many, many years ago.

Though I have no oppinion. Discussing the 3 Gs [(G)od, (G)uns, and (G)overnment] with friends can cause too many problems.


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## map guy (Jan 11, 2007)

FraTra said:


> Though I have no oppinion. Discussing the 3 Gs [(G)od, (G)uns, and (G)overnment] with friends can cause too many problems.










No Doubt!


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## camping canuks (Jan 18, 2007)

Rich

Interesting article, shame a man so intelligent and clearly so pationate can loose a lifetime of work by such suspicion? Now there is no judgement here, but if I may as a question that I have wanted to ask for sometime. The 2nd Amendment refers to the right to bear arms, is that not to be taken in relation to the support of a militia? Is that the wrong interpretation? I used to own some very nice rifles in my day and I think my favorite was the M1 Garand. The NRA has many contributors both in Canada and in the USA. With the divisive part, what is the overwhelming concern that would have them axe a man's career over? Is it the possibility that people will loose are their rifles, shotguns,etc if no one sticks together on the all or nothing thing? 
I appreciate your thoughts.

Scott


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## Bull Elk (Feb 28, 2005)

map guy said:


> Political Correctness required the NRA and show sponsors to respond this way. Divide and conquer is tactic #1 used by any zealot group to make even .0001 inch headway on their political agenda. Sorry to see it happen but politics is just that way......
> 
> Map Guy


Not to be the odd man out, but I look at this from the point that the NRA has thrown one of its most faithful members to the wolves. For that reason, my "opinion" is that the NRA is the one causing the divide. Once again this is just my opinion and I own many guns, but they all fall under what I would consider hunting weapons. Except for maybe my Red Rider.







I also must add that this is as much about image as anything. I also do not like it when fellow hunters take it upon themselves to display their "trophies" while driving down the highway. This, to me, would be the same as an anti-hunter seeing all hunters leaving the woods with inappropriate looking fire power. Having said this, I am all for anyone that wants to own these weapons for investments or shooting sports.


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## tripphammer (Oct 3, 2006)

In weighing in on this topic, I must qualify my response. I have hunted for the past 36 years, I am a retired reserve police officer, and I own three "assault" weapons.

First, to answer Carey's question: "If you are using an assault rifle type gun for hunting, isnt the max shell magazine only 5 rounds?" The answer is no in most states. I can't speak for the specific regulations in Colorado, however, in Montana and many other western states there is no specific regulation, only a minium caliber size. Each of mine has clips that hold 20 to 30 rounds. The key is that they may be rapid fire (one shot per trigger pull) but not automatic fire (one trigger pull, multiple shots fired). Secondly, in dissecting the sentence and for that matter the general discussion, coyote hunting is not considered a regulated hunting activity but as a predator control issue in most of the same states. The emphasis is to reduce the threat to livestock and domesticated animals (i.e. chickens, ducks, geese, peacocks, cats and other small animals). At one time, cyanide snares were used. However, these were causing danger to protected species like bald eagles and to other domesticated animals. The use of long-range high-powered rifles in predator hunting do have a good use but do have some significant drawbacks when used in areas where urban sprawl has occurred. Small caliber, rapid fire weapons do have a great advantage in taking multiple predators (please read as coyotes) out rapidly when the have collected to feed on a carcass or are group hunting.

OK, back to the real issue. Zumbo has been treading on this for more than just the single blog. In a survey by one of the groups mentioned; I responded that I no longer watched his programs because I no longer believed that he represented my position. I do honor his constitutionally guaranteed rights to say what he wants. However, each of us must be willing to accept the ramifications when we make such statements.
Take Care,
Tripp


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## h2oman (Nov 17, 2005)

camping canuks said:


> Rich
> 
> Interesting article, shame a man so intelligent and clearly so pationate can loose a lifetime of work by such suspicion? Now there is no judgement here, but if I may as a question that I have wanted to ask for sometime. The 2nd Amendment refers to the right to bear arms, is that not to be taken in relation to the support of a militia? Is that the wrong interpretation? I used to own some very nice rifles in my day and I think my favorite was the M1 Garand. The NRA has many contributors both in Canada and in the USA. With the divisive part, what is the overwhelming concern that would have them axe a man's career over? Is it the possibility that people will loose are their rifles, shotguns,etc if no one sticks together on the all or nothing thing?
> I appreciate your thoughts.
> ...


That's right. But, the people have the right to form their own militias out of their own pocket.

This is a shame because it is only the latest victimization of political correctness which is only a new way of stamping out the free flow of ideas and speech. It is a black pall on liberty. I disagree with the man. What I hunt with is none of his conccern. That said, I would lay down my life for his ability to speak his mind. Political correctness must end at all cost. Too bad we have no leaders to rally behind.

John


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## tripphammer (Oct 3, 2006)

In weighing in on this topic, I must qualify my response. I have hunted for the past 36 years, I am a retired reserve police officer, and I own three "assault" weapons.

First, to answer Carey's question: "If you are using an assault rifle type gun for hunting, isnt the max shell magazine only 5 rounds?" The answer is no in most states. I can't speak for the specific regulations in Colorado, however, in Montana and many other western states there is no specific regulation, only a minium caliber size. Each of mine has clips that hold 20 to 30 rounds. The key is that they may be rapid fire (one shot per trigger pull) but not automatic fire (one trigger pull, multiple shots fired). Secondly, in dissecting the sentence and for that matter the general discussion, coyote hunting is not considered a regulated hunting activity but as a predator control issue in most of the same states. The emphasis is to reduce the threat to livestock and domesticated animals (i.e. chickens, ducks, geese, peacocks, cats and other small animals). At one time, cyanide snares were used. However, these were causing danger to protected species like bald eagles and to other domesticated animals. The use of long-range high-powered rifles in predator hunting do have a good use but do have some significant drawbacks when used in areas where urban sprawl has occurred. Small caliber, rapid fire weapons do have a great advantage in taking multiple predators (please read as coyotes) out rapidly when the have collected to feed on a carcass or are group hunting.

OK, back to the real issue. Zumbo has been treading on this for more than just the single blog. In a survey by one of the groups mentioned; I responded that I no longer watched his programs because I no longer believed that he represented my position. I do honor his constitutionally guaranteed rights to say what he wants. However, each of us must be willing to accept the ramifications when we make such statements.
Take Care,
Tripp


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## emsley3 (Feb 27, 2007)

Very well said Tripp and I agree with you.

I believe that any person has a right to speak how they want but I have a right to speak with my wallet if I do not agree with them. This is what makes this country great!

Forget that this subject is about firearms and transfer it to something in your life that you enjoy. Since this group is into TT's, camping, etc., the best comparison that I could relate the Zumbo situation to would be for a lifelong RV'er, magazine contributer, and television host without kids to come out and state that trailers with bunk beds have no place in a CG because they encourage families with children to camp and the children will then hang out at the CG...so trailers with bunk beds should be illegal.

Different issue but same logic. People are passionate about their beliefs and have every right to be but you must also think before they speak or type. Zumbo is learning this lesson now.


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## Mtn.Mike (May 3, 2005)

Well I never hunted a prairie dog but somehow the image I get of hunting them with an assault rifle just makes me laugh








I too have hunted for years in Pa. and as another poster has stated we don't allow semi automatic weapons but I remember a time when a hunting party next to us had someone with a Remington 760 pump gun in 30-06 caliber. I didn't see the gun but I certainly heard it; 10 times to be exact. When my grandfather tought me to hunt he said make the first shot count but it was obvious that this hunter was only "slinging lead" at the deer.
In no way am I singling out those that hunt with a semi automatic but my question is why? If you love guns then certainly you're able to place that first shot accurately and kill your prey.
Would I own an assault rifle, certainly if I felt that my family was threatened but to hunt with one seems like "overkill".
Just exercising my first amendment rights so don't shoot the messenger.









Mike


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## silesiaone (Nov 20, 2004)

His comments were directed at an "assault rifle" (see defination below). His mistake was mentioning rifles that are NOT "assault rifles" but subject to his personal opinion. There is a misconception of terms. To speak as an authority you would think he would know the difference.

Assault rifle
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

The AK-47 is the world's most common assault rifle.An assault rifle is a selective fire rifle or carbine firing ammunition with muzzle energies intermediate between those typical of pistol and battle rifle ammunition. Assault rifles are categorized between light machine guns, intended more for sustained automatic fire in a support role, and submachine guns, which fire a handgun cartridge rather than a rifle cartridge. Assault rifles are the standard small arms in most modern armies, having largely replaced or supplemented larger, more powerful battle rifles, such as the World War II-era M1 Garand and Tokarev SVT. Examples of assault rifles include the M16 rifle and the AK-47. Semi-automatic rifles, including commercial versions of the AR-15, and "automatic" rifles limited to firing single shots are not assault rifles as they are not selective fire. Belt-fed weapons or rifles with very limited capacity fixed magazines are also generally not assault rifles.


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## Scott and Jamie (Aug 27, 2006)

I have a SKS with all of the options. Would I hunt with it, No. I have the right to own it and will fight for that right. I hunt with Bolt actions, Black powder, Shotgun, and Bow. But If I decided I wanted to use my SKS to hunt with it is still my right. I feel bad that Mr Zumbo got axed but I feel his words have graetly hurt us gun owners! Quote "I'll go so far as to call them 'terrorist' rifles" If I was the head of any of those companies I would do the same. There is a different between freedom of speech and a job/ or getting money for sponsorship. Would your boss keep you if you said something that hurt the business you worked for? He had the right to say his words and the companies he worked had the right to say your "fired". Both parties exercised there rights.

Scott


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

Tripp hit it right on the head, and silesiaone is commended for displaying the definition of an assault rifle. Despite the American press and politicians, there is a specific definition, and I am so glad you provided it.

""I must be living in a vacuum," he wrote. "The guides on our hunt tell me that the use of AR and AK rifles have a rapidly growing following among hunters, especially prairie dog hunters. I had no clue. Only once in my life have I ever seen anyone using one of these firearms.

Zumbo added, "I call them 'assault' rifles, which may upset some people. Excuse me, maybe I'm a traditionalist, but I see no place for these weapons among our hunting fraternity. I'll go so far as to call them 'terrorist' rifles. They tell me that some companies are producing assault rifles that are 'tackdrivers.'

"Sorry, folks," he continued, "in my humble opinion, these things have no place in hunting. We don't need to be lumped into the group of people who terrorize the world with them."

Thing is, you would think - if he were sober - he wouldn't make the mistake of calling arms that most emphatically are NOT assault rifles, assault rifles.  Legitimate arms owners have put up with enough of that garbage from ill-informed pollies and deliberate anti-gun campaigners. It was a serious blow to all who enjoy arms to have an "authority" on the subject say the same incorrect things as those who would disarm us. That's why he is so out, so quick. He sawed off the branch he was sitting on, no one else did.

There was no chilling of free speech here. No one escorted him to the hoosegow. He said what he wanted to say, from the bully pulpit he occupied. That there were immediate and, to him, serious repercussions is his own fault. Certainly, those who employed him had every right to terminate that employment when he ceased to represent their interests.

All that said, I own nothing with a plastic stock, nothing without a nice blue job. It's just my personal opinion, but I think military style arms are ugly, and one of my joys is the beauty in machines, including firearms. I just have a hard time finding it in an AR. Functionally, that AR isn't a whit different from a Ruger Mini-14 - which I wish I did own.

I spent my time on the happy end of military small arms, a bit on the unhappy end, and have spent the last 40 years doing my best to forget most of it. I'd rather not carry a reminder afield when I seek game.

Sluggo

ps - Please, let no one make the assumption that the Second Amendment is about hunting. It isn't. It is to assure that the citizenry has the means to protect itself from - the government.


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## Huskytracks (Apr 18, 2005)

Just wanted to add my .02. First off- don't worry too much about Jim Zumbo. The gun community will make him pay for a while and then let him back in after his pennance. They haven't forgotten that we are all in this together, they are just mad.
Second, AR type assault rifles are a good gun to use for some types of hunting. From what I have heard from my varmit hunting freinds, they are great for that type of hunting. They can be very accurate and the rapid fire capability is useful when in situations where critters are popping up fast. Plus those 30 round clips could save your bacon if the prairie dogs rally and storm your shooting bench.


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## Bull Elk (Feb 28, 2005)

Huskytracks said:


> Plus those 30 round clips could save your bacon if the prairie dogs rally and storm your shooting bench.


I have seen this happen, all of a sudden all of the prairie dogs (gophers - but that is another topic all together) come out all at once. It is a very scarey part of hunting.







Thanks for the good discussion on this subject. I am not even a real big fan of Jim Zumbo, I just have a hard time with how our society has become so sensitive about what someone says. We definitely can not say "Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me", sorry mom, it just doesn't apply anymore. Probably better avoid "Do as I do, not as I say", as well. 
Rich


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## huntr70 (Jul 8, 2005)

silesiaone said:


> His comments were directed at an "assault rifle" (see defination below).
> Assault rifle
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Jump to: navigation, search
> ...


I'm not really sure where they get there info, but the last time I checked, the .223 from the M16 was NOT a handgun round.

Neither is the cartridge from the AK47.

I guess the belt fed .50 cal is considered a noise maker??/









Seems like they contradict themselves in the definition of "assault rifle"

Steve


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## redmonaz (Jul 24, 2006)

I've tried to avoid this thread because it is a very emotional issue. Curiosity got me and now I must make a comment.

In this country you have the right to say what you want, however you must accept the consequences (sp.?) of what you say. Remember the fellow who played Kramer's tirade? (I did not agree with what he said or did) He lost his temper said some stupid things and had to live with the repercussions, which in my opinion were deserved.

The second amandment is not for hunting rifles, it is to protect ones self. If you follow the 2nd amendment logic assult rifles should be protected, not hunting rifles. I beleive one of the anti-gunners made a comment a few years back to the effect of we have to start somewhere. Using the same logic if there is no need for assult rifles why should handguns be allowed?

I don't care if you hunt, I no longer hunt (after serving in the middle east I no longer enjoy killing things). I do enjoy going to the range and shooting what are defined as assult rifles. If you want a real challenge take a .308 with iron sites to a 1000 yard range!


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## Bull Elk (Feb 28, 2005)

redmonaz said:


> If you want a real challenge take a .308 with iron sites to a 1000 yard range!


redmonaz,
As long as the target that I am shooting at is the size of the Superdoom, I would have no problem hitting it at 1,000 yards.







I agree with you for the most part, but it still comes back to the fact that I believe that people in this country spend way to much time worrying about words and no time watching the action. That is probably the main root of my disappointment. I am looking at it from purely the image side of hunting and that is where I can relate with Zumbo. But I have nothing against the shooting sports.
Thanks - Rich

P.S. - THANK YOU!!!!!!!! to yourself and all the other vets that have giving me and others the ablity to have this discussion.


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

The second amendment exists for one purpose and please never forget it.

It exists so that not only the government but also the people can have arms to thereby protect themselves from the government.

Too bad folks who are afraid of guns have neither the education nor intelligence to figure that out.

That very situation was spelled out in the Civil War.

Hunting with an AK in my mind is kind of stretching it a little bit but if done responsibly I accept it. Probably should use an AR instead since I would guess you couldn't hit anything @ 150 with an AK. Additionally those who do hunt with them should also be responsible for the image they create by doing so. Maybe that is what Jumbo was really saying.


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

I will honestly say when I saw the beginning of this thread, I knew it would be one to keep an eye...in case.

This is honestly for me the first conversation of this nature that has been civil. I want to say Kudos to all.

I have enjoyed reading all the opinions.

John


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## Bull Elk (Feb 28, 2005)

tdvffjohn said:


> I will honestly say when I saw the beginning of this thread, I knew it would be one to keep an eye...in case.
> 
> This is honestly for me the first conversation of this nature that has been civil. I want to say Kudos to all.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with John about the civil part and that is why Outbackers.com rules.































































Some of the other sites that I been following with this topic have totally resorted to name calling and in my opinion we all lose, if we need to throw names around to make a point. Unless we are talking about Gilligan, of course!!









Rich


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

huntr70 said:


> His comments were directed at an "assault rifle" (see defination below).
> Assault rifle
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Jump to: navigation, search
> ...


I'm not really sure where they get there info, but the last time I checked, the .223 from the M16 was NOT a handgun round.

Neither is the cartridge from the AK47.

I guess the belt fed .50 cal is considered a noise maker??/









Seems like they contradict themselves in the definition of "assault rifle"

Steve
[/quote]

Steve, look at the entire paragraph, and the complete sentences, not just parts of them:
"The AK-47 is the world's most common assault rifle.An assault rifle is a selective fire rifle or carbine firing ammunition with muzzle energies intermediate between those typical of pistol and battle rifle ammunition. Assault rifles are categorized between light machine guns, intended more for sustained automatic fire in a support role, and submachine guns, which fire a handgun cartridge rather than a rifle cartridge."

That is an accurate statement, and does NOT characterize a .223 as a handgun round.

The Ma Deuce - the .50 CAL M2 machine gun - is most certainly not an assault rifle. It is a pintle or fixed-mount machine gun; not even John Wayne could fire one while holding it. An assault rifle is an individual weapon; a machine gun is a crew-served weapon.

BTW, if you want the .223 in a handgun, you can get it from Thompson-Center.

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encorePistolCharts.php

Sluggo


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

My AK uses a NATO round.. 7.62mmx39mm.. It is a pretty nasty bullit.. I'm not even sure they make an AK/SKS in .223.. I have shot all the guns, AR15's, M16's, Ouzie's, Mac's, Mini 14's, British Stens, Grease Guns And M1's.. The NATO round is closer to the .308 found in old M1's.. Actually I think the Chinese/Russians copied the .308 and made the 7.62.. Out of all those guns the AK feels like and old M1, not the Garand the M1 carbine.... It is something to be respected compared to the .223.. Although in a rapid fire round, the .223 is about perfect(controlable) The NATO round is considered a rifle cartridge.. It would about break your wrist in a gun that was only held with one hand(handgun).. The .223 could be used in a handgun(pistol) though.

I have a few buddies that used to be machine gun collectors and dealers.. Even though some of there guns were full auto, they were legal.. This was back in the 80's when things were a bit different.. I'm not an assault weapon freak, but had the opportunity to use and learn all about assault rifles when I was younger.. But as far as I know all AK's and SKS's are all the NATO round..

ps.. One more thing, I have shot 1000 rounds out of an AK in under 30 mins.. They can handle many rounds without cool off intervals.. Out of all the above mentioned guns, only the Grease Gun needed a long cool off period.. All of these guns are plenty heavy duty enough to be used in long rapid fire sessions without any trouble.. They are all designed for heavy rapid fire sessions.. I have seen the barrels become so hot, they almost turn red, and never lose accuracy..

Carey


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## huntr70 (Jul 8, 2005)

Thompson Center makes almost all rifle cartridges availible in the Encore.

I own 4 barrels for mine......

That still wouldn't throw it into the actual handgun designation like the 9mm Uzi.

Here again, it is all in how different people want to interpret things, which is why we are still fighting over the whole 2nd Amendment thing...


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## N7OQ (Jun 10, 2006)

It is sad how they treated one of their own even it they didn't agree with what he said. I think the NRA and other sponsors have a right to disagree but it should be with the same degree that Jim used, verbal or written disagreement don't destroy him









I love guns and believe in the 2nd amendment but I don't always agree with the NRA. I joined them once and they hounded me for Money the whole year, so I said good by to them and joined the California Rifle and pistol Assoc. I will not join them again until they change and stop hounding the members for money and treating them badly.

I hope it all works out OK for Jim Zumbo and they all make up.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

huntr70 said:


> Thompson Center makes almost all rifle cartridges availible in the Encore.
> 
> I own 4 barrels for mine......
> 
> ...


Aint that the truth hunter! lol

Carey


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## camping canuks (Jan 18, 2007)

That's right. But, the people have the right to form their own militias out of their own pocket.

This is a shame because it is only the latest victimization of political correctness which is only a new way of stamping out the free flow of ideas and speech. It is a black pall on liberty. I disagree with the man. What I hunt with is none of his conccern. That said, I would lay down my life for his ability to speak his mind. Political correctness must end at all cost. Too bad we have no leaders to rally behind.

John
[/quote]

John

I get it, I often wondered about these militias I here about on the US News. I was in the Militia, but in Canada it is a branch of the Canadian Forces, not private. I know my American cousins in North Dakota are very found of their rifles, assualt or otherwise. So I guess when it is written in the constitution with the right to create a militia, I can see why so many are passionate to carry or own a handgun or rifle. When people indicate that they want to protect themselves from government do they refer to WACO incident or similiar intrusions? I have to admit that if people were protecting themselves from their government they would want to vote in a new government, or change the system somehow. Anyways good info and my thanks to all.

Thanks John.


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

Canuck,

They do not refer to Waco. They refer to thousands of years of history filled with governments who were not for the people, by the people. Allowing the people to arm themselves is to keep the government from getting out of hand, it is just that simple.

2nd Amend. Came right out of the Am. Revolution and that is why it is so prominent (2nd ). Proceeded only by the right to free speech and even before the right to not incriminate ones self (5th Amendment).

So I ask all of us South of the border to remember to inform others around us who were likely taught history by those who fear guns what the true meaning of the 2nd Amendment is. I do very softly each time I hear the conversation come up.

Funny thing happend only 2 weeks ago while I was travelling. My wife called me all upset. Apparently my 4 year old daughter tells he class mates that I hunt. A mother of one of her friends didn't want her friend to come to our house because of the likely hood that there are guns in the house. Got to love that!


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## huntr70 (Jul 8, 2005)

NJMikeC said:


> A mother of one of her friends didn't want her friend to come to our house because of the likely hood that there are guns in the house.


Yes, they do tend to jump out of the gun cabinet or safe and start random acts of violence....
















Steve


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> My AK uses a NATO round.. 7.62mmx39mm.. It is a pretty nasty bullit.. I'm not even sure they make an AK/SKS in .223.. I have shot all the guns, AR15's, M16's, Ouzie's, Mac's, Mini 14's, British Stens, Grease Guns And M1's.. The NATO round is closer to the .308 found in old M1's.. Actually I think the Chinese/Russians copied the .308 and made the 7.62.. Out of all those guns the AK feels like and old M1, not the Garand the M1 carbine.... It is something to be respected compared to the .223.. Although in a rapid fire round, the .223 is about perfect(controlable) The NATO round is considered a rifle cartridge..
> 
> Carey


The 7.62 X 39 is not a NATO round, it is a Russian round developed during WWII. The 7.62 NATO is a 7.62 X 52 round, otherwise known as the Winchester .308. It is a direct descendant of the US CAL 30, model of 1906 (30-06).

Old M1 Garands are 30-06. Old M1 carbines are .30 Carbine, which is a 7.62 X 33. The .308 (NATO 7.62 x 55) was the chambering for the M-14. That rifle is heavily derivative of the M1 Garand.

Sluggo


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## camping canuks (Jan 18, 2007)

NJMikeC said:


> Canuck,
> 
> They do not refer to Waco. They refer to thousands of years of history filled with governments who were not for the people, by the people. Allowing the people to arm themselves is to keep the government from getting out of hand, it is just that simple.
> 
> ...


NJMike

Understood, sorry the reference WACO was my attempt to contextualize the fitting of your constitution into the new age I do understand the revolution both from the American and Empire Loyalist or Canadian perspective. For your level of comfort I was not taught by someone who fear guns nor do I. I do find the 2 nd amendment to be very facinating as it relates to a modern society in America. I appreciate your thoughts, and chances are someone that wouldn't let your daughter's school friend come over has likely never even met you or had an opporutnity to see how your firearms are stored in a safe manner. Guess it is all about education and people getting together. Thanks again


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## muliedon (Jul 6, 2005)

It is too bad that the NRA and sponsors of Jim Zumbo's show would do this. He has done an excellent job of providing the public with a positive image of hunting. I have been a fan of his articles since I was in grade school, and can not remember a time that he has said anything that opinionated about anything. I guess I feel that there should have been a way to perserve the career and dignity of somone that has done so much for the sport of hunting. This is part of the reason that I am not a NRA member. I understand the divide and conquer and the domino theories that they preach, but I guess I feel common sense should be applied once in a while as well.

I personally would not go deer hunting with an AK47, a Ruger Mini30, a Bushmaster with a .308 conversion kit, or any of the other "suitable" semiauto rifles on the market. I also have no interest in hunting with a Browning BAR or Remington 750. They just don't interest me. Part of it has to do with the stigma of accuracy that they have been stuck with through the years. I remeber a guy in the gun department of Shceels in Sioux Falls explaining to my dad when I was a teenager that they were good for coyote hunting because you could "just throw a pattern out there, and hope someting ran into it". I hunt almost exclusiviely on public land, and I do worry when I see another hunter with semiauto rifle. It requires more attention to safety and your target if you have another round in the chamber as quickly as your mind can tell you to pull the trigger again. I am not convinced that everyone that carries a firearm is capable of handling that responsibility in a hunting situation. I am not sure I am. Just my thought for what they are worth.

Don


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Sluggo54 said:


> My AK uses a NATO round.. 7.62mmx39mm.. It is a pretty nasty bullit.. I'm not even sure they make an AK/SKS in .223.. I have shot all the guns, AR15's, M16's, Ouzie's, Mac's, Mini 14's, British Stens, Grease Guns And M1's.. The NATO round is closer to the .308 found in old M1's.. Actually I think the Chinese/Russians copied the .308 and made the 7.62.. Out of all those guns the AK feels like and old M1, not the Garand the M1 carbine.... It is something to be respected compared to the .223.. Although in a rapid fire round, the .223 is about perfect(controlable) The NATO round is considered a rifle cartridge..
> 
> Carey


The 7.62 X 39 is not a NATO round, it is a Russian round developed during WWII. The 7.62 NATO is a 7.62 X 52 round, otherwise known as the Winchester .308. It is a direct descendant of the US CAL 30, model of 1906 (30-06).

Old M1 Garands are 30-06. Old M1 carbines are .30 Carbine, which is a 7.62 X 33. The .308 (NATO 7.62 x 55) was the chambering for the M-14. That rifle is heavily derivative of the M1 Garand.

Sluggo
[/quote]

Told you its been a few years.. lol Thanks for the help... The AK does feel similar to the M1 carbine, and there is the reasons why..

They also make the M14 with .223 cal. I forgot the M14 can be had with the .308.. The M14's sure are fun to shoot reguardless of caliber..

Isnt there more than one NATO round? From what I remember there was a a couple sizes..

Carey


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

Carey there are other NATO rounds and it is more of a designation of use by NATO forces other then who usually made it. The 7.62 NATO is indeed a .308 and it was developed by Winchester. It is by the way many times more powerful then the AK 7.62x39. Not a fan of that round at all. The .223 developed by Remingtion is also often referred to as the 6.5MM NATO or is it 6MM? I have to think, that is dangerous ,perhaps the .243 is 6.5MM which again is developed by Winchester and uses a necked down .308.

The M1 Garand is used by the Navy in .308 and you can actually buy one brand new from Springfield Armory as well as one chambered for the 30-06. The M14 which was automatic is also called the M1A1 in semi-auto form and once again you can get one brand new from Springfield Armory.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Thanks Mike for the info.. I was just looking up NATO rounds, and yep 7.62x51 is an equal to win.308, and 5.56x45 is the equal to .223.. Both of these rounds were NATO rounds..

With the 7.62x39 still being the most popular worldwide, becuase of the easy to get chinese SKS.. But its not a NATO round and was founded by the russians in WW2..

Thanks for everyones help...... Fun stuff!

Now are any of these considered hand gun rounds? I say no way! They are all rifle cartridges..
Carey


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Thanks Mike for the info.. I was just looking up NATO rounds, and yep 7.62x51 is an equal to win.308, and 5.56x45 is the equal to .223.. Both of these rounds were NATO rounds..
> 
> With the 7.62x39 still being the most popular worldwide, becuase of the easy to get chinese SKS.. But its not a NATO round and was founded by the russians in WW2..
> 
> ...


Heck, Carey - you can get a Thompson-Center Contender in .45-70! I will happily watch YOU fire it!

Sluggo


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## Katrina (Dec 16, 2004)

Sluggo54 said:


> Heck, Carey - you can get a Thompson-Center Contender in .45-70! I will happily watch YOU fire it!
> 
> Sluggo


Actually, thats a Smith and Wesson Contender these days.
Press Release.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Sluggo54 said:


> Thanks Mike for the info.. I was just looking up NATO rounds, and yep 7.62x51 is an equal to win.308, and 5.56x45 is the equal to .223.. Both of these rounds were NATO rounds..
> 
> With the 7.62x39 still being the most popular worldwide, becuase of the easy to get chinese SKS.. But its not a NATO round and was founded by the russians in WW2..
> 
> ...


Heck, Carey - you can get a Thompson-Center Contender in .45-70! I will happily watch YOU fire it!

Sluggo
[/quote]

Yea I'm sure you can get any round for any gun, but the assult rifle uses a rifle cartridge, not a hand gun cartridge. I know you can get pistols to fire rifle cartridges. My uncle has a .410 shotgun pistol that also shoots .45's, they are great for grouse around here.. Its a legal gun..

When they designed hand guns, they also designed the proper cartridges to fit the hand gun, same as when they designed rifles, they aslo designed the proper cartridges for them.. I know Thompson and some others make some pistols that can shoot rifle cartridges, but that has been long after the initial design..

Carey


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

I made the mistake of firing a 35 Whelan from a Contender. Bad mistake!

Worse mistake in fact then when as an 8 year old I fired my grandfathers shotgun. I wanted to run with the big boys. My grandfather said try this, I did, cured me of running with the big boys real quick.


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

Katrina said:


> Heck, Carey - you can get a Thompson-Center Contender in .45-70! I will happily watch YOU fire it!
> 
> Sluggo


Actually, thats a Smith and Wesson Contender these days.
Press Release.
[/quote]

Well, golllleeee. Shakin' my head... Not sure how S&W figures that gives them a toehold in "fine hunting rifles".

Seems like Smith has been wandering in the darkness ever since the change of ownership that took them to the UK some years back.

Sluggo


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

NJMikeC said:


> I made the mistake of firing a 35 Whelan from a Contender. Bad mistake!
> 
> Worse mistake in fact then when as an 8 year old I fired my grandfathers shotgun. I wanted to run with the big boys. My grandfather said try this, I did, cured me of running with the big boys real quick.


Too funny Mike...

Carey


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