# Front Delamination



## camping479

For those wondering, this is what front delam looks like..........

Our outback is 8 years old and it started last spring. We probably won't do anything about it, I don't think we'll get back out what we put into it if we repair it.


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## CamperAndy

Can you share some details such as possible leaks or changes in storage methods?


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## willingtonpaul

CamperAndy said:


> Can you share some details such as possible leaks or changes in storage methods?


X2. i feel for you on the cost / benefit. and how has the caulking around the upper clearance lights been kept up ?


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## camping479

I haven't changed any storage methods, it's been covered every year since we bought it from october to april with an adco brand rv cover. I haven't found any leaks and I'm pretty particular about maintenance, check the roof caulking at least twice a year as well as the clearance lights.

Looking at the front, the right clearance light leaked when we first bought the trailer causing a small amount of delamination around the light. It was dried out and resealed and the delamination has been confined all this time to right around the light and never got any larger. The newer delam is mostly in the middle of the panel and there's some at the top but neither spot is near the marker light. I remember some talk a while back about covers possibly trapping moisture and heat causing delamination and I guess that may be a possibility. The front was fine when I covered it up in the fall and the delamination was there in the spring when I uncovered it. But why after 7 years right in the middle of the front panel? Why not after 2 or three years? Glue got old maybe?

I'm not thrilled with it but we've decided we have too much fun camping to worry about it too much. I'll keep up with the maintenance and hopefully it won't get any worse.

Mike


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## Tangooutback

I have same problem with mine...not as bad...or not as bad just yet. It started out around the light and gradually spread further down. I checked and checked and could not find any leak. Mine is 2005.

I figure as long as it is not leaking it is a matter of cosmetic. It is aggravating but it is not dysfunctional. Repair is out of the question. I have not checked into repairing, but judging from some minor repair estimates I had with my popup camper I have no doubt replacing this front panel is going to be easily 4K at the minimum if I am lucky. Even if it is replaced, there is no guarantee it will not occur again. So, I am preparing myself mentally to accept it as an investment loss and try to have as much good time out of it as I can.

One of these days if it get worse and starts leaking, I may make a few small slit to bleed out the air and perhaps inject Gorilla glue into it and screw it down. Worse case scenario, I'll install another plate of laminate or thin metal sheet over it, caulk it really good around the rim and paint the darn thing cammie. Last resort is to turn it into a deer lease residence....


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## Chasgirl

I just discovered several spots of delamination on the front of our camper near the top and a couple of bubbles on the side! We have a 2007 25RSS which was purchased in 2006. It is way out of normal warranty. Does anyone know if Keystone has helped out with this issue? (Dumb question, I know!) But I see old neglected campers with no delamination; I've babied ours and this happens!


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## K. Smith

camping479 said:


> For those wondering, this is what front delam looks like..........
> 
> Our outback is 8 years old and it started last spring. We probably won't do anything about it, I don't think we'll get back out what we put into it if we repair it.


Someone correct me if I'm out of line here, but are these "nose caps" simply a piece of Filon® wrapped around the end? Wouldn't it be an easy fix to just buy some of that, remove the original cap and lay it on top of the new, and mark/cut the holes? Then screw it back together using the original hardware. To me, that actually seems easier (and better) than drilling holes and pumping in epoxy and bracing it and then painting over the holes.

Again, I may be way off on that.

Kevin


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## CamperAndy

K. Smith said:


> For those wondering, this is what front delam looks like..........
> 
> Our outback is 8 years old and it started last spring. We probably won't do anything about it, I don't think we'll get back out what we put into it if we repair it.


Someone correct me if I'm out of line here, but are these "nose caps" simply a piece of Filon® wrapped around the end? Wouldn't it be an easy fix to just buy some of that, remove the original cap and lay it on top of the new, and mark/cut the holes? Then screw it back together using the original hardware. To me, that actually seems easier (and better) than drilling holes and pumping in epoxy and bracing it and then painting over the holes.

Again, I may be way off on that.

Kevin
[/quote]

Actually you just about covered what the dealer does when they repair the nose. They then charge 3 to 4 K for 8 hours of work and a 8 by 10 piece of sheeting.


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## Tangooutback

Does anyone have any suggestion on material that would be suitable for this repair? 
I don't think it would be wise to use same material which is on it at this time.


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## niner3lima

camping479 said:


> For those wondering, this is what front delam looks like..........
> 
> Our outback is 8 years old and it started last spring. We probably won't do anything about it, I don't think we'll get back out what we put into it if we repair it.


So that's what it's called! We just bought an 07 31RQS and it has a similar (though less-severe) situation. I believe ours is the result of the roof sealer leaking and also that the camper was parked in FLA so moisture and extreme prolonged heat. When I bought it I figured there was likely a known fix out there or that I'd figure something out. What I have been kicking around is filling the area in-between the sheet vinyl with an expanding foam like is used when insulating older homes (already complete construction). It would seem there is a commercial grade device with a wand that could be fed down through the marker light or a new hole cut out to be plugged after the foam was injected. Any thoughts on that approach?


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## camping479

I found this supplier online. The material isn't all that expensive. I had also looked into replacing the front with aluminum.

Mike


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## Tangooutback

camping479 said:


> I found this supplier online. The material isn't all that expensive. I had also looked into replacing the front with aluminum.
> 
> Mike


Mike, 
That Filon is only 1/16" thick. I imagine if this is to be applied to the nose cap you would have to install a layer of 1/4" or 3/8" plywood for structural sub-base and then glue the Filon sheet on top of it.


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## Mike S

Can anyone share the cost of having their Front Delamination repaired at a dealer cost?


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## Mgonzo2u

I just found delam on my rig this past weekend. 7 years in and care given to seams and now this ugliness.

Sounds to me like we have enough of a problem with this to create a CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT.

Yeah, I said it.

Are you reading me Keystone? Your company is responsible for all of this poor workmanship and you are liable. You should be held liable. And with enough support, you will be held liable. Its just a matter of enough of us deciding to take it to you in our court system.

p.s.

Without Keystone $$ assistance to fix their mfg problem, there will never be another Keystone product in our (lucrative) future which more than likely will include another 3-5 more RV's.

Are you reading me Keystone?


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## huntr70

Not to dismiss your problems, but a lawsuit will get you nowhere.

They have suppliers. It is a supplier problem, not a construction problem.

They have already stopped using that supplier.

Your warranty is up, which you should've been aware from day one, is one year bumper to bumper, excluding seals and sealant.

If you dismiss Keystone products from your future, than so be it, you are just excluding many options for yourself.

Take notice of all the other manufacturer's out there with the same problems....Forest River, Jayco, Thor, etc....

Guess you won't be buying another rv.


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## maddog

huntr70 said:


> Not to dismiss your problems, but a lawsuit will get you nowhere.
> 
> They have suppliers. It is a supplier problem, not a construction problem.
> 
> They have already stopped using that supplier.
> 
> Your warranty is up, which you should've been aware from day one, is one year bumper to bumper, excluding seals and sealant.
> 
> If you dismiss Keystone products from your future, than so be it, you are just excluding many options for yourself.
> 
> Take notice of all the other manufacturer's out there with the same problems....Forest River, Jayco, Thor, etc....
> 
> Guess you won't be buying another rv.


Had a Coachman with the same problem. 6 years old when it started


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## thefulminator

A couple questions for all of you who have had the delam problem.

1) Do you live where it gets very hot?

2) What direction is the front of the trailer facing when stored?

3) Did you use a cover? If so I am assuming that it was not inside or under a structure.

In past posts I was noticing some common circumstances on some of the delam posts. It seemed in the post I looked at, that a cover may be working like a green house and trapping heat. Could the front caps be letting go of the structure because the adhesive is getting to hot especially if the front of the trailer is facing South or East? Anyway, it's just a idea.


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## maddog

thefulminator said:


> A couple questions for all of you who have had the delam problem.
> 
> 1) Do you live where it gets very hot?
> 
> 2) What direction is the front of the trailer facing when stored?
> 
> 3) Did you use a cover? If so I am assuming that it was not inside or under a structure.
> 
> In past posts I was noticing some common circumstances on some of the delam posts. It seemed in the post I looked at, that a cover may be working like a green house and trapping heat. Could the front caps be letting go of the structure because the adhesive is getting to hot especially if the front of the trailer is facing South or East? Anyway, it's just a idea.


We live in southwest Ohio can be fairly hot in the summer months. My trailer faced south while parked in the driveway and never used a cover.


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## Mgonzo2u

huntr70 said:


> Not to dismiss your problems, but a lawsuit will get you nowhere.
> 
> They have suppliers. It is a supplier problem, not a construction problem.
> 
> They have already stopped using that supplier.
> 
> Your warranty is up, which you should've been aware from day one, is one year bumper to bumper, excluding seals and sealant.
> 
> If you dismiss Keystone products from your future, than so be it, you are just excluding many options for yourself.
> 
> Take notice of all the other manufacturer's out there with the same problems....Forest River, Jayco, Thor, etc....
> 
> Guess you won't be buying another rv.


I did the right thing in buying a 5 year extended warranty on top of things. Like always, the problem happens after the warranty expired.


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## CamperAndy

Mgonzo2u said:


> Not to dismiss your problems, but a lawsuit will get you nowhere.
> 
> They have suppliers. It is a supplier problem, not a construction problem.
> 
> They have already stopped using that supplier.
> 
> Your warranty is up, which you should've been aware from day one, is one year bumper to bumper, excluding seals and sealant.
> 
> If you dismiss Keystone products from your future, than so be it, you are just excluding many options for yourself.
> 
> Take notice of all the other manufacturer's out there with the same problems....Forest River, Jayco, Thor, etc....
> 
> Guess you won't be buying another rv.


I did the right thing in buying a 5 year extended warranty on top of things. Like always, the problem happens after the warranty expired.
[/quote]

Not sure on your extended warranty but on others that have tried to have it replaced it was not covered "due to lack of maintenance" or "structural not covered".


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## maddog

My extended warranty excludes any structural problems


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## Mgonzo2u

Structural differs from faulty material, no?

Even fraudulently faulty material with so many known cases.


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## Y-Guy

That is probably one of the largest delam bubbles I've seen. The reasons really vary; Fleetwood Toy Haulers had a huge problem with this around the 2005 model year and I would say that every brand of RV has had this too. This is one downside to the smooth trailer style of RV. Heat & moisture all play a part, sometimes its leaking and sometimes its just bad materials from the factory that makes it all.

Don't just take it to one dealer talk to a few, your photos can save you from hauling it around. Get some quotes with them doing the work during the slow time of the year (i.e. late fall/Winter) and see if they will cut you a better deal.

Our local shops all charge about $100/hour, however one place about an hour away charges closer to $70/hour, and the guys know more too. It can really pay to call around. If you were close to OR or WA I'd recommend them, but alas it won't do you much good.


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## jt-mt-21rs

Our '05 21RS is starting to show signs of delamination around one of the front lights.

I check the chaulking and roof twice per year and having found any cracks in the sealant. 
I don't store it with a cover. We only get hot weather for maybe 2 months of the year.
Stored indoors in the winter. This thing is babied. I still wax it in the fall.

This should not be happening on a 6 year old trailer. I'm very dissappointed with what I'm seeing with these trailers.
There are a lot of Outback (and other manufacturers) owners out there that are going to take an azz kicking when we try sell our trailers.


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## camping479

We went out looking at new trailers this past weekend and found something we liked. The salesman told us book value is 7500 but with the delam they will give us 6. Not too bad if we got 7500, kind of disappointed with the 6 though. I'm thinking of getting it fixed and keeping it for another year, looking into it now.

Mike


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## RonBidd

Well, i am glad i found this web site. To be honest i did not know how big this problem was until my sister traveling in yellow stone saw a 28bhs like mine with the same delamination issues. By the way it is not delamininating. I live in Maryland and after the great blizzards of 2009 i noticed the issues speading to the side walls of the camper. The front was like that when we boght the camper new. Let me explain.The outer walls are made from cardboard with the outer coating of fiberglass.I could not find any leaks like some of you have posted.I watch an episode of "how its made" and found out how the manufactures test for leaks. High volume air via fans though an open window or roff hatch. I have the luck of having a frein in the water restoration business, so the fans and moisture reading tools were not an issue. We Dryed the cmper for more than 30 days in his shop with a wide aray of techniques....he was stumped the reading droped but nota much as a normal house would have. We think is has to do with the densiy/ tight sandwich construction. During the leak test (with the interor pressurized i took afew bottles of gas leak detect to the seams on the roof and corner trim. Remember i never had any visual evedence of water or mosture inside. I only had 2 leaks but the cardboard was "wicking the mosture" hence speading it where there wer no leaks. I striped back the fiber coated front exterior (because we could NOT get it to dry after the first week. Think of a cardboard box when it gets wet.Your wrincling will get worse as the interior(inside cardboard wall)drys. I stopped the leaks with a ton (about 10 tubes for the front and back) of lap sealat. Mosture Readings now show that the interor walls are dry but it took a the summer of 2010 Sitting the hot sun. I keep a cover on it during the winter. Snow pushs down on the sealant opening tiny cracks were melting snow can seep. The outback my model year as a gully between the front fiberglass secion and the rubber roof. If the camper is level it holds water. I looked at 2005 28 bhs that is having issues with the back seal but none on the front. his roof pitched differant than my 2003. Looks as keystone was trying to correct a know situation. the back seal leaks as well witha very poor design. Soory for such a long post. I love my outback but agree keystone needs to pony on know problems with these design flaws....As for price the local dealer quoted around $2000 to reskin the camper. I will be checking into the links to buy the materals to repair this myself.Reskining will not help anything unless we address the design flaw thats causing the issue. sorry for the typo's as well.


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## yumadoug

thefulminator said:


> A couple questions for all of you who have had the delam problem.
> 
> 1) Do you live where it gets very hot?
> 
> 2) What direction is the front of the trailer facing when stored?
> 
> 3) Did you use a cover? If so I am assuming that it was not inside or under a structure.
> 
> In past posts I was noticing some common circumstances on some of the delam posts. It seemed in the post I looked at, that a cover may be working like a green house and trapping heat. Could the front caps be letting go of the structure because the adhesive is getting to hot especially if the front of the trailer is facing South or East? Anyway, it's just a idea.


Replying to an Old Post here but- my issue was the Arizona Heat. Had the bubbles appearing in the front nose in the afternoon and evening as the Sun hits the front but not in the mornings. I took the front off and there was an obvious moisture leak at some point in the upper left but in the center where the bubbles were appearing it was perfectly dry. By the way, it's cardboard glued to the front nose material. The two layers are very thin, possibly 1/16 in each . It's not delamination which occurs between fiberglass and the wood siding , but it's similar














. The cardboard had a dried watermark in the top corner but the rest was perfectly dry with no watermarks or other signs. You don't see the insulation in the attached pic because I replaced it, as long as I had the front end off. I contacted Fleetwood and they said the bubbles were most likely caused by the extreme AZ heat and direct sun that broke the bond of the glue between the fiberglass and the cardboard. Made sense to me since the bubbles are completely gone in the morning . So although it's ugly it's nothing to worry about. But I am tempted to drill a small hole in each bubble and try injecting epoxy if I can figure out a way to clamp it down. I may use one of those cheap hand ratchet straps from Harbor Freight to hook to the awning arm on one side and the door handle on the other side, running the strap around the front holding down on a small piece of plywood over the repair.


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## thefulminator

Just from reading posts in the past, I've had the theory that some delamination can be caused by too much heat. It seemed for a while that those who were having the problem were in very hot climates, were using covers which could act as a greenhouse and trap the heat or both. Enough heat could either soften the glue or cause the wood frame to expand enough to break loose from the glue. From what the last poster said, it still fits my theory.


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## SoCalAngler

I had some side and front delam in my last rig....2009 Tahoe TH. I purchased in 2019. I'm in SoCal and so was original owner. He only covered it for first few years. Bubbling/delam was definitely from direct sun exposure. The side and front had sun all day and opposite side did not face sun and had no delam.


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