# Broken Black Tank



## chetlenox (Feb 3, 2004)

Hey all,

Just figured I would mention that I seem to have blown out black tank #2 on our Outback yesterday. Same method as a year-and-a-half ago. Just doing my normal Flush King tank dump after a nice weekend in Warm Springs when I heard a "pop" and a whole lot of water started pouring out the bottom of the trailer. Based on the time I'd been flushing, I'd guess that the tank was ~1/2 full when it let go. Fortunately, this was flush #3, so it was mostly water and not raw sewage pouring on the campsite. When this happened a year and a half ago, Curtis Trailers put in a new tank under warranty and said Keystone had told them they had gotten a "bad batch" of tanks from their sub-supplier. The tank itself split at a seem, creating a gash a good couple of feet long in the bottom of the tank. Well, either they put another "bad batch" tank in or I have some unique mounting problem that is putting too much strain on the tank.

I've been trying to think if it was my Flush King method that was doing it, but I can't figure out how. I mean, the tank is vented so I can't exactly pressurize it. I mentioned that it happened during flushing to the guys at Curtis and they assured me that that shouldn't result in a blown tank. The only thing I can think of is that the tank is probably most full when I'm flushing, as we rarely get the tank very full with normal use. I'm bringing the trailer back in to Curtis tonight to see if it's the same thing. If it turns out to be the same deal, I'm going to have to figure out some sort of upgrade to a more robust tank or something. Of course, the trailer isn't under warranty anymore, so this one is gonna cost me...

Anybody heard of anybody else having trouble like this? Sure seems odd to me. I foresee a big messy job in my future...

Chet.


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

Chet sorry to hear about the tanks issues. Though you maybe out of warranty, I'd try my best to at least split the cost with Keystone (of course getting paid for is best). Something seems odd though, I haven't read about that happening on here. While they are installing it, have them install a quickie flush while their at it.

If prices come out way to high and you are up for a drive there is a repair shop in Pendleton that I highly recommend. shop prices were much cheaper than most and the guys that work there have worked in the RV industry for around 25 years each.

Let us know what you find out.


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## nascarcamper (Jan 27, 2005)

That sounds odd. It has to be the way the straps are mounted or something like that. I rarely fill my black tank all the way up but I make sure the water to solids ratio is enough not to clog and follow up with a couple of straight water flushes. Personally I think the flushing rigs are a bit overkill. I might eat those words some day but after years of different rigs I've had zero issues.


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## HootBob (Apr 26, 2004)

Chet
Sorry to hear happened 
That just seems weird that it happened twice
I never heard of that happening.
Please keep us updated on your sitution.

Don


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## johnp (Mar 15, 2004)

Did you see the old tank when they removed it. Almost sounds like whatever they patched it with broke.

Once-bad tank (first I've heard).
Twice-







I would really question it.

Lets not forget we have people that have overfilled the tank with a quickie-flush and only had a mess on the floor.

John


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## nynethead (Sep 23, 2005)

Wow, bad luck, please let us know if you picked up a second defect or it is some type on mounting and weight issue.


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

I know this is apples and oranges but at car/truck dealerships, repairs are often given a warranty of a year or more. The logic is that a professional repair,especially if it is a replacement with a factory new part, should last as long as the original new part was warranted to last. Makes sense to me. I bet the people at Curtis Trailers would understand that concept if it was them taking their car back from a repair done a year ago.

If the Outback is out of warranty, talk to Curtis and they may be willing to work on Keystone for a good adjustment on the second tank. If they do know of a batch of bad tanks, good customer relations would suggest a replacement gratis with their apologies. Hope it turns out like too. Good luck.

Bill


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## NDJollyMon (Aug 22, 2003)

That really stinks! Literally!

Time to raise a little hell, I think.


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

I think chetlenox and his family are just too full of sh*t.









Kidding...kidding..of course.

Hope you get his worked out with Curtis. I have never been too fond of them, but PDX_Doug seems to like them.

Looking forward to seeing you this spring at the PNW Rally. Hopefully you don't break your foot water skiing again and you'll be able to get around some more.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

I am a visual kind of guy. I would really like to see pictures of the failure. I use a flush king and back fill almost to the point of it coming out the toilet. The tank belly's a bit but that seems normal.

I should upgrade to a Quicky flush and inspect the installation of my tank.


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

As stated....it was a new replacement that failed. Should have some warranty.

We have had 2 toilets lifted from overfilling on this forum, not broken tanks. Those things are designed to not only hold the weight of the liquid but hold it while sloshing down the highway. I also wonder if they tried patching it, try to see the tank for evidence of a repair.

Good Luck

John


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## Morrowmd (Feb 22, 2005)

Like John just said, I would be very suspicious that it was a new tank. It makes more sense that they tried to patch the old one and it broke again. If it were me I would take a look at the tank before they switch it out.

-Matt


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## chetlenox (Feb 3, 2004)

I agree with Jim, I think I'm just too full of sh*t....







I am now no longer limping and back to skiing (lightly) by the way, but it's taken literally a year to get to that point... Ahh, getting old is such a joy.

As for the repair that was done on the first event in summer of 2004, it was definitely a tank replacement. I saw the tank that came out, and it really couldn't have been patched. The tank let go along the thick "ridges" that run along the flat tank surface that are designed to stiffen the tank to bulging when it's full. The new tank that went in had a different type of ridge molding, more of an indententation (I assume it "ridged" on the inside of the tank). I don't know if it is because it was a tank from a different sub-supplier, or that they just changed the design. The material of the tank seemed to be the same.

Steve, you never know, I might just take you up on that. Pendleton is a long drive, but you never know what kind of dollar signs are going to show up. Curtis honestly seems to be making a good faith effort to figure out some sort of way to help me out with sharing the cost, and the service folks seem genuinely apologetic about a fix that didn't exactly work out. But we'll see when it actually comes time for an estimate. As for my previous experience with Curtis service, it is a bit mixed like other's have reviewed. Sometimes goes great, other times... not so much.

As for why it could have happened twice, I've got to think it's related to how it was mounted. The odds of two bad tanks is just too remote. I spoke with the actual service technician that did the work the first time, and he complained quite a bit about how difficult it was to get the broken tank out due to frame positioning. So much so, in fact, that he managed to break the grey water tank (at the fitting that goes to the valve and "T" to the black tank) removing it. Curtis owned up and ended up replacing BOTH tanks. The same technician reinstalled, but shifted the location of the tank aft by about 6-8 inches. I know because the outlet pipe was unchanged itself, but was moved that distance towards the left-front tire after the repair (making it pretty close for comfort). Also, the vent for the grey tank wasn't hooked up properly, since before the repair it would backfill into the shower when full, but after it poured out onto the ground. I didn't really care too much at the time, since I kindof figured grey water on the ground rather than in the shower was a feature, not a bug.







So something was odd about the replacement tank install. But now you are talking a broken tank from bad mounting from the factory, then another from bad mounting from Curtis? Also seems unlikely. Maybe it was 1st event: Bad tank, 2nd event: Bad mounting. Who knows. I don't think I really abuse the tanks. We rarely get above 1/2 full on the black tank, don't bounce along on rough roads with it full, that sort of thing.

I'm definitely going to switch to the Quickie Flush when this is done though. I've heard about how well it works, I've just been too lazy to install and try it. I mean, the tanks should be holding up just fine with the Flush King method, but perhaps I would never had any problem in the first place if I'd always used the Quickie Flush. Then again, maybe I would have heard a "pop" and had raw sewage dump all over my campsite the first time I camped for a week somewhere and actually filled the black tank. Now THAT could have been a life-altering experience.

Anyway, I'll keep ya'll posted. I should hear back from Curtis today or tomorrow. I got on the Net yesterday and did some pricing on new tanks if I end up digging into it myself. They ain't cheap, most are $150+.

Chet.


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## huntr70 (Jul 8, 2005)

wow....that really is weird.

As others have stated, I've never heard of that before....let alone twice.

You may be on to something with checking how it is mounted.....there may be something rubbing or puncturing when it is full and bellied???

Just a thought.........

Steve


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

As one of the "Lifted the toilet while using the Quicky Flush" guys I can attest to the usual strength of the black tank. My overfill popped the the toilet off the floor ripping the bolts right out and did no damage to the tank at all.

Seems kinda fishy, Or at least smells that way


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## chetlenox (Feb 3, 2004)

Ok, so I just chatted with the folks at Curtis and the news is good (at least for my wallet): The 2nd black tank didn't actually break. They said that the gasket between the tank and the bottom of the toilet was not installed properly the first time and failed, resulting in the leak at that point on the top of the tank. They have fixed it for free, even though it's out of their 1-year repair warranty. Kudos to those guys.

So here is my best guess: I must have had a faster fill rate with the Flush King than I thought (I didn't use a regulator, must have had some serious pressure from the campground), resulting in a completely full tank before I shut off the water. The pop I heard must not have been the tank this time, it was the gasket letting go, with the subsequent water pouring out around the tank (rather than out the bottom).

So the 1st time was the tank, and the 2nd was this improperly installed gasket and my ehh.... "over-aggresive" use of the Flush King. The bottom line is that I'm going to pull all the panels off the bottom and do some looking around down there now. It's about time I better understood how the whole system works underneath the floor, that's for sure. I also have a sneaking suspicion that I'll be installing a Quickie Flush while I'm in there.

Three quick questions:

1) The guys that have overfilled their tanks with the Flush King, what was the symptom? Jim, you said that you stripped the bolts on the toilet, so the toilet itself actually popped up and you got sewage in your trailer?

2) Does the Quickie Flush actually work well without using it to fill the tank? As in, you just turn it on and let it run for a little while as you are dumping (with the drain valve open)? That is sounding much more attractive that the fill-and-dump method at this point...









3) I still don't understand how we are pressurizing anything with the Flush King. I mean, at the worst case shouldn't we just start pushing water out the vent in the top of the tank? Why are the tanks and toilet gaskets (or bolts) breaking? It should be impossible to pressurize anything...

I'll have one more update on anything I find once I climb under the rig and pull all the panels off. If I can remember, I'll get my camera in there and take some pictures.

Chet.


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## huntr70 (Jul 8, 2005)

Well, it sounds as though things worked out for the better for you.

Glad it was as simple as it was.

I don't really see how it could pressurize either, you would think the water would just push up and out the toilet bowl...I guess if the flapper thingy is closed, it could possibly blow though.....

I use a piece of plexiglass cut at an angle to hold the flap open while dumping, that way I can see into the tank and see how full it is.

Steve


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## Thor (Apr 7, 2004)

Chet

I am glad the fix was easy on your pocket book.

Regarding your questions - A few Outbackers have overfilled their black tanks with a quickie flush - Not a pretty story (alot of mess no real damage)

With a quickie flush, I normally turn it on and wait a minute or so. I open the black tank valve and monitor the flow. (by the amount I can tell how full the tank is) I will than open and close several times until clean, than I turn off the quickie flush and let the tank drain completely out.

Thor


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Chet - I'm still mystified at how it could have pressurized too. I used to think that a little neglect on my part would at worst end up running water up the vent. But in my case - not so. Once the tank got filled it pressurized to the point that it quite literally blew the toilet right off the ground.









There are two lag bolts that attach the "closet ring" or flange as it's sometimes called, to the subfloor. The pressure under the toilet (which apparently seals itself very well) caused the lag bolts to loose their grip and stip out. The result - the toilet popped straight up like a zit. Fortunately I had already rinsed the tank twice and was on my final full flush, so the water on the floor wasn't bad at all. And really I only had about a pint of water on the floor.

The repair was easy too and required no parts. I just drilled new holes and re-attached the ring to the floor, and then re-attached the toilet (which never let go!) to the ring.

Needless to say I stand vigil now no matter how boring, when the QF is in use with the black valve closed. I have the QF installed about 1/3 of the way down from the top and you can hear when the water reaches it. A minute or so after that I let her rip.

Lesson learned the hard way for me


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

Chet,

Are the guys are Curtis done? You might (if you're feeling lucky) ask them to install the quickie flush for you, while the system is apart.

Give them some song and dance about how your kids were shocked at now scared to use the toilet with all the problems....









They might want to charge you do the install, but it will sure be worth it if you can get it done while in the shop.


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## kjdj (Sep 14, 2004)

Odd ,the directions with my tornado said leave the tank valve open.
It also said use a regulator.

I bet your vent is clogged or blocked.


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## chetlenox (Feb 3, 2004)

I think it would be tough to get into trouble with any flush system if the valve is open. Can't do that with the Flush King though (It flushes up through the dump pipe). I picked up a Quickie Flush at Curtis when I picked up the trailer, and will get it installed here shortly. Hopefully using it (with the valve open) will be enough to keep things clean and flowing smoothly... Without blowing up any more tanks or toilets.









Chet.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

I have run my QuickieFlush both with the valve open and closed without any problems. After reading all of this, however, I think in the future I will only run it with the valve open!

Isn't this a great forum!









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## Thor (Apr 7, 2004)

PDX_Doug said:


> I have run my QuickieFlush both with the valve open and closed without any problems. After reading all of this, however, I think in the future I will only run it with the valve open!
> 
> Isn't this a great forum!
> 
> ...


You said it.

Thor


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## HootBob (Apr 26, 2004)

I run mine both open and closed But when it's closed I add roughly about 10 gallons of water to give it a good flush and do that a couple of times.
Never had a problem yet ( knock on wood )

Don


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## nynethead (Sep 23, 2005)

Thanks for giving us the final details, I though we were going to have a bad batch of tanks going forward. I use the old manual flushing wand recommended by my dealer. Open the toilet sticck it down and turn on the water. It spins around and cleans everything very well, pull it out and pack it away, all you need is a 50' hose.


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## chetlenox (Feb 3, 2004)

Yeah, there is something to be said for the old fashioned method. If I had a window, I'd do it in a flash. It's just a pain with no window.

I'll climb underneath that thing and install the quickie flush and take a bunch of pictures. I'm still hoping to have some clue as to how we seem to be "pressurizing" the system enough to blow gaskets, break tanks, and blow tanks off the floor.

Chet.


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