# Rear Weight To Heavy?



## Lostcamper (Aug 3, 2005)

We were proud owners of a 25rss when we lost our trailer and use of our tow vehicle due to cross winds. Have any of you had trouble with this? I noticed someone posted a accident from cross winds and the ball unhitching, but we didn't unhitch we fishtailed and turnd over on our side, then slide backwards 10-12 feet. If the trailer is not rear heavy then why did we slide backwards after the accident? Very dissapointed now in this design flaw and we hope that keystone will turn the design around so we can still have the fun of the outback without the rear heavy ness. Were hurt but still alive to camp another day, not sure in what but we will get back out there.


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## MaeJae (May 12, 2005)

I don't quite understand what you mean by you slid backwards.
(The force of your TV and TT were in forward motion then it slid backwards?)
Do you mean that your TT _swung_ around and was sliding backwards with still the same forward direction?
If so, I think that was from the force of the sway not the rear end being too heavy.

I am very glad that you came away from the accident alive. But, I don't think you should turn away from looking at another Outback TT. 
What were you pulling your 25rss with and what kind of WD hitch and sway cantrol did you have. 
Camp on... sunny 
MaeJae


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## Ghosty (Jan 17, 2005)

Trailer is not rear heavy -- in fact it weighs almost 600 pounds heavier up front then the rear. Now of course I don't know your load-plan so you may have had it heavy in the rear with gear but that would be a great deal of gear to make it heavy -- you would have to have almost 900 pounds in the very rear to even to equailize the center of gravity --

Using Newtons laws (just kidding) -- BUT -- it would take allot -- and I mean ALLOT - of force to push or slide an overturned TV weighing 6000 pounds and and over turned trailer weighing 6000 pounds with 100% coefficient of drag 10 to 15 feet... and if you were traveling at 30 miles per hour then you had a forward momentum of 15 TONS -- so that means that you were rally stopping and sliding 16.5 Tons almost 15 feet -- a D-10 Catepillar Dozer could barely do that!!!...

Just curious though -- did you have a WD or Sway contol hitch ???


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## shake1969 (Sep 21, 2004)

What TV were you towing with?


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

Hope everyone made it through that ride uninjured.

My first question is the same as everyone else's. What were you using as a TV?, followed by what WD Hitch and sway control were you using, and were they set up correctly.

As Ghosty said, the trailer shouldn't have been rear heavy, unless the slide was pulled out already (don't pull your rear slide with out the rear stabilizer's down, at least on most of the models).

Think about it, if the trailer was rear heavy, the tongue would be off the ground all the time.

Tim


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## Thor (Apr 7, 2004)

1st of all, I'm glad that everyone is still alive







Campers and TV can be replaced.

How strong were the x-winds?
Road condition wet or dry?

Have you ever had towing concerns prior to this happening?

Sorry for the 20 questions..but I'm deeply concerned and wish to learn as much as possible so that we do not have to live thru what you had to experience.

Thor


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## HootBob (Apr 26, 2004)

Sorry to hear what happen!!!
Glad that everyone is O.K. that is the main thing.
Won't repeat what everyone else said but ditto.

Don


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## kjp1969 (Apr 25, 2004)

Lostcamper said:


> I noticed someone posted a accident from cross winds and the ball unhitching[snapback]47554[/snapback]​


That was me- glad to hear that you're okay. I hope the injuries you mentioned aren't too serious.

Please post a complete writeup of what happened, as soon as you can. Reading 
about your accident can help others avoid trouble. It's also helpful to dissect what happened for your own peace of mind.

Kevin P.


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

I am also glad everyone is OK.

If you want, there are some Outback models without the rear slide.

That must have been some crosswind , I do not doubt your story for a moment. I think as others have said missing info, hitch, tow vehicle.

The reason I say that is because I saw a 28 ft trailer flipped and came loose from a vehicle last year close to where I live. My son ended up meeting the guy (he sells Snap On tools) and he said a bus passed him at a high rate of speed and he swayed and bounced off the bus and flipped. What he never knew and still doesn t is that at the exact place where he was passed was a extremly nasty dip in the road and only in the right lane (and I mean nasty, my Challenger would bottom the headers out at 65 in that lane) which I am positive was a second factor in him losing control. The trailer was laying between 100 and 200 ft past the dip. The state had set up all the necesary equipment the day before on the shoulder and fixed it 2 days later.

Again, I am glad everyone is Ok and we are all just trying to learn and not have repeated to any of us or you the same thing.

John


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

Sorry to hear about the accident, glad everyone is okay. How did your tow vehicle fare? With all the rear slide campers from just about every RV line I don't think you'll find the design is flawed. Just the added weight of the rear slide doesn't seem like it would be the cause of the problem. We had a 28RSS and never felt like the trailer was out of balance. As others have already noted the tow vehicle (wheelbase, weight capacity, etc), the hitch and anti-sway features as well as the proper loading of the vehicle all probably have more to do with how a trailer tows. Cross winds with any trailer can be dangerous. With our Raptor I am highly aware of this due to the height, I've come close to pulling off to the side once, but we slowed down and got through the section of highway that is known for high crosswinds.

Most of all, glad you are okay.


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

I would also like to add that sometimes you cannot beat Mother nature. Ask any truck driver about cross winds affecting a 80,000 lb rig. I was following once another trailer in Fort Dix in NJ durind a blizzard and watch as he made a turn to the right, the wind took his trailer and threw it 180 degrees as if he was making a left from the other way. I have also had my( tractor) trailer moved over 3 to 4 ft in a lane on the NJ turnpike with cross winds. In NY there have been cross wind blow over loaded tractor trailers on the Goethals bridge.

My point is sometimes no matter what you do or don t, Mother nature can take over........its more a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

John


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Also glad to hear that everyone is OK. I can't even imaginge what an experience like that would be like. Scary stuff for sure.

As to the reason for your accident, there are a great many variables that all could have affected you. If you cite cross-winds as the reason you started to sway and ultimately crash, then there are other and far more likely reasons you lost control. A few are:

1. Inadequate tow vehicle
2. Weight distribution system not properly adjusted.
3. Sway control not properly adjusted - or not present
4. Underinflated or inappropriate tow vehicle tires
5. Driver inexperience / panic

Again, I'm so sorry to hear you crashed. But investigating the likely reason for your accident will be both theraputic to you and helpfull to all here who are reading this.

Best wishes to you and your family.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Glad everyone is okay but just to add my .02. There is not a design flaw that has any of the Outbacks rear heavy. The weight of the slide is worked into the consideration.

Hope when the insurance comes in you get a new Outback but please take time to consider some of the comments above about road condition, tow combination and mother nature as the reason for the loss and not design flaw as it will get you in trouble with your next trailer. No matter what it is, if you dont think those factors had much more to do with the accident then the trailer design.


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## Ghosty (Jan 17, 2005)

Guess we scared LostCamper with all the questions...


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## glennsteers (Apr 25, 2005)

The fact that he didn't sign his name, respond to any questions, and gave strange and unexplained descriptions leads me to believe that "lostcamper" may have lost more than his camper!

I was, however, impressed by the patient and compassionate responses to lostcamper dilemma. It just didn't smell right.

Am I the only one suspicious?


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## Fire44 (Mar 6, 2005)

No, I thought it was strange that he joined, posted 2-3 post, and has not been back on again....

I was thinking that this afternoon.

Gary


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

I dont think it was a troll but some times people just can not put into words what they need to say. As for checking back in they may not realize the speed at which they will get feedback on the Outbackers forum.

Lets give it some time.


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## Katrina (Dec 16, 2004)

Was a little suspicios myself, but try to give the benefit of doubt on here.
Decided it was best to keep my mouth shut an wait an see.......

Hopefully he'll be back and contibuting.


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## glennsteers (Apr 25, 2005)

I agree, CamperAndy. Things move fast and furious on Outbackers so he might not have even read the posts since he posted. I'll reserve judgement but it would be nice to get some details. What's he towing with? What were the road conditions? How did he come to his conclusions about the rear weight? Maybe if he does check back in he can answer some of these questions...

Inquiring minds want to know!


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## shake1969 (Sep 21, 2004)

Still, it makes you want to go "Hmmm".


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

I have to agree with the suspicious nature of the post.

While I am certainly glad everyone survived, and I can't imagine what an experience like that would be like (OK, I can, but that's another story or two), the post smacked of someone looking to build a lawsuit.

As others have noted, there are any number of reasons this accident occurred, and in one way or another, most of them come back to some form of operator error. Not being as close to the situation as those that went for that terrifing ride, it is easy to pass judgement, but many people simply seem unable - or unwilling - to accept the fact that they may have been the one at fault, and feel the need to put the blame elsewhere. Anywhere else, but upon themselves.

I'm sorry if this is not as politically correct as we like to be around here, but sometimes reality is not kind.

In any case, there is no logical reason to believe that the rear slide design of the Outback is flawed. Yes it may be heavier in back than some TT's (although, I suspect, not as much as one might think), but this issue is simply addressed in the design stage by locating the axles slightly further aft than one might otherwise to restore proper balance.

It is interesting to note that Lostcamper identified themselves as "proud owners of a 25rss", and now, all of a sudden are "Very dissapointed now in this design flaw" in the Outback.

Lost, if you are still out there, please check in with us. Altough it may sound otherwise, we are not trying to bust your chops here. We are a close extended family and we welcome you. Give us a chance, and we will work through this as a group. Just understand that what you will get are straight forward and honest opinions.

And that to me, is what makes this forum such a great place!









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## Thor (Apr 7, 2004)

PDX_Doug said:


> Lost, if you are still out there, please check in with us. Altough it may sound otherwise, we are not trying to bust your chops here. We are a close extended family and we welcome you. Give us a chance, and we will work through this as a group. Just understand that what you will get are straight forward and honest opinions.
> 
> And that to me, is what makes this forum such a great place!
> 
> ...


Well said Doug









Thor


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## HootBob (Apr 26, 2004)

I couldn't have said it any better than Doug did


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## Lostcamper (Aug 3, 2005)

We were spun around as if the front wheels of the TV were locked in place. They weren't because the van turned artound too, once we were on the ground then we slid facing in the opposite direction, the trailer slid us backwards. So we were traveling south bound, the whole unit was facing northbound when done and slid in the south bound direction. as if the Trailer was pulling the TV. We were towing with a Astro van, but What sway control I don';t know, Two Weight distribution bars or sway bars. What would determine the force of the sway over the reart heavy ness?? Just want to know. 


MaeJae said:


> I don't quite understand what you mean by you slid backwards.
> (The force of your TV and TT were in forward motion then it slid backwards?)
> Do you mean that your TT _swung_ around and was sliding backwards with still the same forward direction?
> If so, I think that was from the force of the sway not the rear end being too heavy.
> ...


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## Lostcamper (Aug 3, 2005)

I'm Sorry if this comes off as a potential lawsuit, I am just trying to find out if others have had this experience or to inform others of the experience. I would buy another 25rss in a heart beat if I was not so scared of the rear weight. I am still waiting for the p[olice report to see what they have to say. The witnesses to the accident stated the gust of wind was extremely strong. in fact they thought their high top van would be next to flip. I appreciate straight forward answers and i have beaten my self up over and over to decide if I could have done anything, maybe I could have but I didn't. So we are researching again. Nancy P.S. Sorry for the delay in Responding, I am still recooperating and a Stay at home mom that checks e-mail and sites once a week. I am not a scam artist or anything bad, just a fellow camper trying to get and give education if it is needed. Sorry if I smell funny but I really am a nice person Honestly!


Thor said:


> PDX_Doug said:
> 
> 
> > Lost, if you are still out there, please check in with us. Altough it may sound otherwise, we are not trying to bust your chops here. We are a close extended family and we welcome you. Give us a chance, and we will work through this as a group. Just understand that what you will get are straight forward and honest opinions.
> ...


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## glennsteers (Apr 25, 2005)

Lostcamper,

Give us the specs on the Astro van please (year, engine, etc.)

Thanx!


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## glennsteers (Apr 25, 2005)

Nancy,

I see you are recuperating, I hope that wasn't from the accident? I'm sure everyone on Outbackers.com is very sorry if it sounded like we were being critical. It's just that as proud Outbackers we tend to get defensive when someone questions our "baby!"

This forum is very helpful for individuals like yourself who are in need of answers. It is, however, helpful for us to have as much information as possible to provide those answers (if we even have them).

I'm sure the thought of the whole ordeal is very painful. Our condolences for any injuries suffered in your accident!


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## jgerni (Nov 10, 2003)

Hi LostCamper,

We appreciate you coming back. We are very concerned about any possible safety hazard with the Outback line and appreciate all the info you can provide us.

I think the problem was an improper Tow Vehicle and or WDH/Sway setup or lack of. IMHO an Astro Van is not a safe TV for any of the Outback campers.

The 25RSS will weigh 6000lbs when loaded and is 26ft long. Much too heavy and long for the Astro. I believe the Astro is only rated for 5000lbs towing and thatâ€™s with only the driver and no passengers.

Could you be more specific about the weather conditions, etc.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Lost,

Glad to see you back! the new information you provided offers a few clues to what may have happened.

The first thing that jumps out at me is your tow vehicle. The Astro van is not a heavy duty tow vehicle by any means. I do not know what your tow ratings are, but if they are anything like our old Dodge Grand Caravan (a very similar vehicle), you are way, way over the tow ratings. Our Caravan was rated for 3,500#, and the 25RS-S has a listed 'dry weight' of 4,655#. I would guess you were at least another 1,000# heavier than that, once everything is added up.

Secondly, after reading your last posts, it is easier for me to visualize the incident. I can understand your feeling about the rear being heavy. What you need to realize, however, is that it is not that you have a heavy load at the back of the trailer, but that you have a heavy trailer on the back of your van! It seems more likely to me, that the weight (and size) of the entire trailer is what caused the rig to switch ends. Especially, if you were exceeding your vans tow ratings by as much as it appears you were. And, by the way, that would have happened with ANY trailer.

You are, of course, free to form whatever opinions you desire regarding the whole incident, and the Outback specifically. If you want to post messages about the crash, or about the dangers of towing in general, I'm sure you can offer some unique insights that we can all benefit from. But please refrain though from 'trashing' the reputation of the trailer until all the facts are in, and you fully understand them.

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## MaeJae (May 12, 2005)

This is a subject I do have experience in. (the van)
We have a GMC Safari (sister vehicle to the Astro) this vehicle is not even a good choice for a pop-up. ( I would not even put this van in the same category with a Caravan) The way the each react while driving is totally different. 
When we first purchased our Coleman NIAGARA pop-up total loaded weight pushing 3,500 lbs.
We pulled it ONCE and ONCE only with the Safari. My husband was towing it to go hunting and almost lost it when a semi passed him. 
The pop-up and van experienced kind of a thrashing motion despite the friction sway and break controller. It just became out of control. This was the first camper my DH had ever pulled and he was quite inexperienced. He did manage to get it under control â€¦ pulled over â€¦checked things out and continued slowly, very slowly.
It sounds like what happened to you. 
The back end of this van is extremely light and it is a tall van which makes it catch the wind like a kite.
We always have to put a couple hundred pounds of extra weight in the back end in the winter just to get traction in the snow and ice here in Michigan.

This is just my opinion but I would guess it was the Tow Vehicle that is the root of the accident not the Outback.

By the way, I hope you are recovering well and will soon be out camping again. I truly hope this experience wonâ€™t keep you from enjoying the great out doors again.

P.S. I don't think you are smelly...really







LOL

Camp-on 
MaeJae


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## Dreamtimers (Mar 7, 2005)

jgerni said:


> Hi LostCamper,
> 
> We appreciate you coming back. We are very concerned about any possible safety hazard with the Outback line and appreciate all the info you can provide us.
> 
> ...


Since Lost camper hasn't yet had a chance to collect and posted info on their tv, hitch, sway control, etc... I looked up a new astro online. Currently depending on model it's specs run from:

4700-5800 lbs. tow
111 in. wheel base
3953-4591 lbs. curb weight 
2800-3050 lbs front axle
3100 lbs rear axle
5600-6100 GVWR
190 hp engine

As jgerni pointed out this is a small tv which is 'at' and likely 'over' its limits. Combine that with bad weather, (ie wind), and an unknown setup on the WD and sway control, unknown loading in both the van and the TT, an accident is certainly possible. As PDX_Doug said "_What you need to realize, however, is that it is not that you have a heavy load at the back of the trailer, but that you have a heavy trailer on the back of your van_!" Also, from personal experience, sometimes things just slide that way for a short distance. I have been in cars whose center of gravity was about the firewall, but still slid backward as well as sideways during a slow spin.

If you have access to the info requested, please post as much as you can. This is a great group of people who have a tremendous wealth of experience and insite. Give them a reasonable chance and they will try to help you put it all together.

And the most important thing is that you and all the others involved alive to discuss it with us. I hope any injury anyone might have gotten will soon heal.
We wish you all the best as you continue through this.

Dreamtimers


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## Lostcamper (Aug 3, 2005)

We were pulling with a Astro Van , 2003 with a towing capacity of 5900. we had towed the trailer completely across the state of michigan with no problems. THe day was dry but very windy. THe injuries are mostly Road rash and deep gashes. Through more discussions with my fellow campers we seem to find many factors in play, like most of you have noted, Fear, panic, wind, improper sway hook up, just to name a few, Again I am not looking for a class action or any kind of lawsuit, I am just trying to find justification for my self to tow again. We have decided to get a shorter trailer with out a rear slide. We will nnow consider a larger Tow Vehicle any Suggestions? we are looking at a trail lite 22 foot trailer GVWR is about 5300 Guess were gun shy. Thank you for your concerns and please e-mail me if you have any other questions or if I did not answer yours. I check this sight about Once a week as I have three young children to raise and do not have tome for the computer. thanks Nancy [email protected]
and to Glennsteer stop being so suspicious, I am sorry fi you are offended by my Questions but where else will i get real answers to Real life Questions, my dealer told me we would be safe on the road!


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

We are concerned with your safety and your recovery. I would be frightened too.
We are glad that you shared your experience. Knowledge is power. The more we know the better off all of out fellow Outbackers will fair.
I understand not having time to read and post too







Young ones do take alot of time and energy.I hope they where not injuried . I babysit my 2 year old grandson everyday and I would be very upset if he where injuried.
You asked about TV. The Outbackers Forum on TV's is really excellent.
We hope you stay with us and get the benifit s of the experience that has been shared on this site.
There is a web site called www.rvtowingtips.com
This is a must read for towing.
Topics:
What can I tow
Horsepower
How long of a trailer?
How to weight
Hitches
Brake controllers
Tow laws 
The person who started this site has personal experience with an accident and did alot of homework to help us RVers and to save lives.
We do care about how you and your family are doing.Keep posting when you have the time.
Jan


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## Lostcamper (Aug 3, 2005)

Thank you all for your help , information, and concern,. I believe almost all the debrie is out of my shoulder. THe children are fine, and we plan to go tothe shows to see what our tv can tow, Not really finacially able to upgrade the tv just yet, but will be looking into that too. Thanks again for being there for me! Nancy


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

Good luck Lostcamper,
Take your time do the research and shop around. We love Outbacks here but do what is best for you an your family. Check out Vdubs hot link to alot of good info .It's called weight 101. he has 4 or 5 links for newbie or want to be Rver's to help make a good choice. Remember dealers will tell you anything to make a sale ;TV or TT.








Feel free to post how you are progressing.Lots of great people and resouces for you to tap into.
Jan


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## George and Marg (Feb 20, 2004)

Lostcamper said:


> We were proud owners of a 25rss when we lost our trailer and use of our tow vehicle due to cross winds. Have any of you had trouble with this? I noticed someone posted a accident from cross winds and the ball unhitching, but we didn't unhitch we fishtailed and turnd over on our side, then slide backwards 10-12 feet. If the trailer is not rear heavy then why did we slide backwards after the accident? Very dissapointed now in this design flaw and we hope that keystone will turn the design around so we can still have the fun of the outback without the rear heavy ness. Were hurt but still alive to camp another day, not sure in what but we will get back out there.
> [snapback]47554[/snapback]​


We recently sold our 2003 25 RSS as we were transferred to the Bahamas last fall. I read this post with great interest as I too questioned the weight distribution of my trailer. We had a Prodigy Brake Controller and Equal-I-Zer Load Balancing hitch that was installed by the dealer. We hauled with a Ford F150 4X4 Crew Cab. I can tell you that travelling with my family and alone, that we had experienced several scary moments where the trailer sway brought my stomach to my throat. What was common to all situations was on major highways, going down hill in a sheltered area and entering an open expanse where cross winds were likely active. The swaying got so bad on one occasion that I could actually see the black insert in the rear of the trailer bumper as it started to jack knife. I believe a combination of larger transport vehicles passing, angle/weight distribution of the trailer on hills, speed and side winds was the cause. These all happenned on major 4 and 6 lane highways in Canada and the US. Otherwise, the trailer hauled beautifully on Route 66 type roads. The key is to take your time, be aware of your surroundings at all times and drive defensively. Passing transport trailers appear to creat a lot of turbulance that begins the sway. I tend to move far to the right or left (when passing) as this greatly reduces sway. It is the suprise from behind that creates the most tension. Like the other post, it is great to hear you walked away and best wishes on your next purchase. I'd go with my friends purchase, a 5th wheel. Best wishes.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

There is no doubt that the conditions and situations George descibes are a receipe for sway. But I remain unconvinced that the weight in the rear of the Outback is the issue. This sort situation will effect any trailer.

Another point - I have not seen made yet - in this thread regarding the weight of the rear slide in the Outback. Yes it is surley heavy, but take a look at what is in the rear of other travel trailers...

There are bathrooms and kitchens (the heaviest areas in you trailer due to all the cabinetry and equipment) bunk beds and rear storage closets, bike racks on the rear bumper, the list goes on.

When you consider those, and the amount of weight they add to the rear end of those trailers, I just don't see the Outback as being abnormally heavy in the posterior?

Hmm....

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## Highlander96 (Mar 1, 2005)

I am with Doug.

What I would really like to know is how fast were they driving?

Happy Outbacking!

Tim


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## RVCarolina (Jul 31, 2004)

In my opinion, The weight of the rear slide is a moot point - as delivered from the factory, the front of the trailer is still far heavier than the rear, and unless it has been loaded with a LOT of stuff in the rear, there should be sufficient tongue weight for decent towing. I mean, think about it, if the unit were that rear-heavy, you could just have the kids lift the tongue when its time to hitch up.







And you would'nt need a sturdy tongue jack - you could just prop it up with a few old pillows or such,







and just think - no need for expensive weight distribution hitches, the trailer would practically balance itself on its 4 little wheels! And of course, you could'nt possibly walk into the rear of the trailer without the rear stabilizers down - it would tip up like a see-saw.








And think about the "toy hauler" type trailers that you put motorcycles and ATVs into - Talk about rear heavy! BUT - they were designed for this, and still have adequate tongue weight for safe towing. (unless loaded wrong)
So anyway, there may have been a problem, (other than the strong wind) but I'll bet it was more like hitch set-up, type of sway control, type of tow vehicle, the way the TT was loaded, or even the way the brake controller was set.








Anyway, I'm so glad that no one was severely injured, and I'm impressed that these good people are taking a close look at all possible factors that could have contributed to this unhappy event. I know this will help them make the choices that are right for them for their next tow vehicle and trailer. sunny 
Fred
(Wow, I think I've had too much coffee!







)


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