# Fatal Trailer Crash



## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

EDEN PRAIRIE, Minn. (AP) - The State Patrol has identified the two people killed in a car crash along I-494 in Eden Prairie.

Forty-six-year-old James Bergum of Lakeville and his 17-year-old daughter Grace Bergum died in the crash yesterday. James Bergum's wife and two other children of the couple were also in the vehicle.

The vehicle they were in was traveling northbound on the divided highway when it was struck head-on by a southbound vehicle towing a large trailer. A Deephaven couple and their four children were in the southbound vehicle.

The State Patrol says three people remain hospitalized.

News Story of trailer crash???

Guys it looks like an Outback and the people pulling had a last name of Shipp or Schim. Is this any of our members?


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## 7heaven (Jun 4, 2005)

How sad! It does look like a 29BHS. Devastating, pray for the families.


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## Crawfish (Sep 14, 2005)

I really feel bad for all the people involved, and I pray all that are in the hospital pull through.

It looks to me that the Tahoe was pulling a 29' to 31' Outback. I think a way to big of a TT for that vehicle. Just my option.

Leon


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Oh God! That is awful!

Outback or not. I sure hope it was not one of us!









Sometimes the Trails are sad,
Doug


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

undoubtedly if they are forum people, they will in time, share their tragic story.If they do , what a great place to come for support. Right or wrong on the tv, they will need support. We can show them what we are all made of. Can a moderator find out by name if they are a member?? 
Tawnya


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## NDJollyMon (Aug 22, 2003)

Be safe out there everyone.

No name comes up in my search.


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## Devildog (Sep 8, 2005)

That is definitely terrible, we will be praying for this family, whether an Outback family member or not.

It really hits you in the gut and heart when you see pictures like this and how real it can be out there on the highways, everyone please look at this and remember to drive safely.


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

Thoughts go out to both families and friends. Such a horrible thing to happen to both.


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## akdream (Mar 21, 2006)

We just got back from a weekemd trip with our TT. Our prayers to everyone involved, Outbackers or not, this accident affects all of us. We thank God that we made it home with out problems or incident.


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

Our hearts go out to those families whose lives will never be the same. As a new TT owner it really hits home. This shines a new light on what can happen and how much you have to respect the size of these vehicles and what havoc they are capable of on the road. I'm sad...


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## HootBob (Apr 26, 2004)

That is truely sad to hear
Our thoughts and prayers go out to the family

Don


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## RizFam (Feb 25, 2006)




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## Reverie (Aug 9, 2004)

That is a huge trailer. I pray for everyone involved in this crash. It does serve to remind us that when we pull out on the highway with our vehicles we are responsible for not only ourselves but also everyone around us.

Reverie


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## willie226 (Apr 4, 2006)

We all need to pray for the families
and be very careful in our travels

willie


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

maybe this would be a good time for those of you who really understand tv and tt to explain why the Tahoe shouldn't pull such a large trailer. Whether this accident turns out to be due to tv and tt is irrelevant at this point, what I am saying is that the probability exists and we could all benefit from grasping and be more educated. Anyone care to give input on the tv and tt combo and a Tahoes abilities? Just a thought. Tawnya


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

The article did not say it was a Tahoe, so how are we determining what the vehicle is? I do not think myself that it is an Outback.

I do notice that there seems to be bikes on the rear bumper. It is very hard to speculate on what really happened without more details. Has anyone heard any more.

It is definitly a sad story


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/14685053.htm

Found my own answer









Doesn t the Tahoe XL have a wheelbase the same as a Suburban? I would be interested in hearing the results of the investigation.


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## mswalt (Sep 14, 2004)

> Doesn t the Tahoe XL have a wheelbase the same as a Suburban?


Where did you see a "Tahoe XL?" I've never heard of such a vehicle.










Mark


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

http://www.speedysigns.com/lettering/vehic...vrolet-2005.htm


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## campmg (Dec 24, 2005)

That is aweful. As scary as these stories are and I hate hearing them, it reminds me to drive slowly and as carefully as possible. I have a Yukon. My buddy rolled his Excursion and Toy Hauler a couple of years ago. Thank god all of them walked away unharmed thanks to seat belts and child safety seats.


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## LarryTheOutback (Jun 15, 2005)

mswalt said:


> Where did you see a "Tahoe XL?"Â I've never heard of such a vehicle.Â
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Chevrolet sells two versions of the SUV in question, based on the same platform though different lengths. The short one is called the Tahoe, the long one is called the Suburban.

GMC sells two versions of the SUV in question, also based on the same platform as above and in two lenghts. The short one is called the Yukon. The long one is called the Yukon XL. There is also a Yukon Denali and Yukon Denali XL sometimes referred to as the Denali and Denali XL.

To my knowledge there is no such thing as a Tahoe XL, at least in the US.

Here is an article that explains some of the GM SUV names.

Ed


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

I have seen a few vehicles with the side badge Tahoe XL.. I cannot explain why and I know the Yukon uses the XL badge extensively but I did see them. Gonna have to carry my camera in case I see another.







I know I am not crazy


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## hurricaneplumber (Apr 12, 2004)

Besides all of the really bad things that happened, if you watch the video, it is now a "criminal investigation", which to me means the driver is in deep doodoo if his rig is found overweight, un-inspected, etc.

Another reason why I believe owning the biggest trailer is not always the best thing to do.

Be safe!!....and I bet slowing down might have helped.


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## campmg (Dec 24, 2005)

Could the XL tag just be a trim level on the Tahoe? Or part of one.


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## LarryTheOutback (Jun 15, 2005)

hurricaneplumber said:


> , it is now a "criminal investigation", which to me means the driver is in deep doodoo if his rig is found overweight, un-inspected, etc.
> [snapback]115934[/snapback]​


The video I saw mentioned they were bringing in "commercial investigators" (i.e. the trucking investigators, not the car investigators) which means to me that they are looking at the TT/TV pretty heavily.


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

ultimately, all of us will benefit when the results are out. Whether it be tv vs tt, overweight issues, improper hitch, etc.....we will apply what is learned and share with others. Unfortunately, it often takes something bad to gain knowledge needed to prevent duplicate situation


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## nynethead (Sep 23, 2005)

I do not know about models or xl's or not, but the GM website onmly shows one tahoe with a 116" wb and the following specs.
Tahoe (2WD) 6,200 3.42 
7,500 3.73 
Tahoe (4x4) 6,700 3.73 
8,200 4.10

A 116"wb is good for 22' so maybe a 23rs, that looks by the picture to be a 31'er.

It definitely looks bigger than my 29bhs.

Sorry for the accident and those hurt









but as we all know you have to think safe to be safe.


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## drose (Jul 26, 2005)

I towed our TT with our Tahoe 3 times last year and that was 3 times to many for me. I believe it is just to short of wheel base for the length of trailer. I have an insurance agency and this year we have already had a total loss with a Tahoe pulling a 28 ft TT. No one was hurt mainly because it happened on a 2 lane road and no one was in the other lane at the time.


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## summergames84 (Mar 6, 2004)

What a tragedy. We will pray for both families. It states it was in a construction area, which adds to the problems towing a TT.

We saw an Outback on I-10 between Houston and San Antonio this past Friday swaying all over the place, with a young guy driving 70 - 75 mph, seemingly oblivious to what was going on with the Outback. I guess he made it to where he was going, but it was scary to see. He had some type of WD bars, which were probably not set up correctly. We all need to be extra careful out there.


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

what was the investigation conclusion?


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

summergames84 said:


> What a tragedy. We will pray for both families. It states it was in a construction area, which adds to the problems towing a TT.
> 
> We saw an Outback on I-10 between Houston and San Antonio this past Friday swaying all over the place, with a young guy driving 70 - 75 mph, seemingly oblivious to what was going on with the Outback. I guess he made it to where he was going, but it was scary to see. He had some type of WD bars, which were probably not set up correctly. We all need to be extra careful out there.
> [snapback]115953[/snapback]​


any idea what the tv and tt were? just curious.


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

From the article "The Tahoe landed on a Chevrolet Suburban heading north on I-494" The Tahoe/Trailer was heading southbound.

I don't believe there is a Tahoe XL which is a Chevrolet product. Rather it's part of the GMC brand, the Yukon XL which is the same as a Suburban.

It must have been a horrific crash for so many to have been injured while driving these typically safe vehicles. What a tragedy.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

California Jim said:


> It must have been a horrific crash for so many to have been injured while driving these typically safe vehicles.


Yeah, it's that old irresistible force meeting an immovable object thing. The primary safety factor with something like a Suburban is it's shear mass relative to what it impacts... Unless, of course, it's another Suburban.









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## OutbackPM (Sep 14, 2005)

Wow!! Terrible tragidy!!

This is why this forum is so important because you guys don't mince words when someone looks for towing advise. Safety is paramount and must be treated accordingly. Keep up the good advice!!

I have learnt alot here and continue to learn from those who have been there.


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## summergames84 (Mar 6, 2004)

Doxie-Doglover said:


> summergames84 said:
> 
> 
> > We saw an Outback on I-10 between Houston and San Antonio this past Friday swaying all over the place, with a young guy driving 70 - 75 mph, seemingly oblivious to what was going on with the Outback.Â I guess he made it to where he was going, but it was scary to see.Â He had some type of WD bars, which were probably not set up correctly.Â We all need to be extra careful out there.
> ...


Doxie-Doglover: I tried to look, but we had to accelerate past him in a hurry, since he was so unstable on the road. I THINK it was a Tahoe, and the Outback was probably at least 26 or so.


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

Could it be a 29BHS? Does the logo and striping look right? I tried putting the current 29BHS floorplan along side the rig, but I can't tell for sure -- just not a good enough picture. However, when I flipped the picture up right and overlayed the floorplan for what would have been the entry side, it appeared to be a pretty close match. The rear door of the wrecked rig appears to be for a bunk-style setup. Can a Tahoe haul a 29BHS (GVWR on a new 29BHS is about 7700)?

I also saw somewhere (but can't remember where or even if it was creditable) that the max speed limit for a rig and trailer was 65mph. Anyone, know if that is true?


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

drose said:


> I towed our TT with our Tahoe 3 times last year and that was 3 times to many for me. I believe it is just to short of wheel base for the length of trailer. I have an insurance agency and this year we have already had a total loss with a Tahoe pulling a 28 ft TT. No one was hurt mainly because it happened on a 2 lane road and no one was in the other lane at the time.
> [snapback]115951[/snapback]​


what was the result of that investigation-can you tell us???I mean, what caused it?


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## kjp1969 (Apr 25, 2004)

From what I read, the TT/TV lost control by itself and crossed the centerline, where the fatal collision took place. From personal experience (and because I'm fixated on sway) that's got sway written all over it. It sends shivers down my spine and makes me grateful all over again that no one was hurt in our own wreck.
Kevin P.


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## Katrina (Dec 16, 2004)

You can see in the video that there is no XL too it.
That is a Tahoe, short wheelbase.
Way too much trailer for that truck.


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

Did not realize there was video. After seeing it, it is definitly a short wheelbase tahoe, no XL. Whatever make trailer , it does have the enclosed underbelly.


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

Recent News:

A survivor of an auto accident in which two people were killed a week ago said she needs to heal, and to that end she plans to run in Grandma's Marathon, dedicating her race to the victims.
Paul Levy, Star Tribune
Last update: June 01, 2006 â€" 10:40 PM
Printer friendly E-mail this story 
Kerri Shimp

Kyndell Harkness, Star Tribune

Kerri Shimp says she isn't trying to run from last Friday's horrific accident in which her family's SUV and camper trailer crossed a construction median and hurtled into an oncoming vehicle, killing two people. But run she will.
Shimp said Thursday she plans to take part in Grandma's Marathon in Duluth this month, dedicating the race to the memory of James Bergum, 46, and his daughter Grace Bergum, 17, of Lakeville, who were killed in the collision on Interstate Hwy. 494 in Eden Prairie.

Shimp also offered prayers for Jacob Bergum, 15, who remained in critical condition Thursday at Hennepin County Medical Center. Katherine Bergum, 19, who suffered broken ribs, a concussion and facial lacerations, was released from North Memorial Medical Center in Robbinsdale Sunday evening, said her pastor, Dan Miller of Eden Baptist Church in Savage.

Shimp, 34, of Deephaven, said she plans to run the June 17 marathon from Two Harbors to Duluth's Canal Park wearing purple, Grace Bergum's favorite color, and hopes to use her 26.2-mile run as a vehicle to raise money for the Bergum family.

"This is about them," said Shimp, a mother of four. "I'm not looking for a pat on the back.

"I'm looking to heal. I'm looking for a way to help. I was looking for a sign from God. And I found that sign in my running shoes."

James Bergum, his wife, Geralynn, and their three children were headed north when a southbound vehicle driven by Zachary Shimp, 33, lost control and struck a median barrier. The Shimps were towing a large camper, which Kerri Shimp said they've owned for three years.

"It started to rock," Kerri Shimp recalled. "The last two things I remember Zach saying were, 'This is not good,' and then, 'Here we go.' "

The Shimps, heading to La Crosse, Wis., for a camping trip, were less than 15 minutes from home when their camper began to sway out of control, Kerri Shimp said. The camper seemed to lift the Shimps' 2000 Chevrolet Tahoe over the median, she said. Then came a second impact. Kerri Shimp said she thought their SUV had crashed against the trailer.

Her daughter Elizabeth, 11, had a gash across her arm. Daughter Natalie, 8, cut her feet on glass as she ran from the SUV, chasing one of the family dogs. And amidst the chaos, Kerri Shimp saw the second vehicle involved in the crash.

'What just happened?'

"You start to say, 'Oh, my God. What just happened?' " Kerri Shimp said.

Moments later, she met Geralynn Bergum.

"Geralynn came up to me and said, 'Oh, my God, I just lost my own family,' " Shimp said. "I hugged her. I didn't even remember what her face looked like until later, when I saw her picture. But I hugged her. Oh, God, I got to hug her."

They have not been in direct contact since, but the families have communicated through their pastors. Geralynn Bergum said through Miller that she holds "no ill will" toward the Shimp family. She also said the Shimps are invited to the family's funerals scheduled for Saturday and would not be blamed for the wreck.

"There's not one single person I know that would point a finger at them if they come," Geralynn Bergum told Miller Thursday.

It doesn't appear that the Shimps will attend, however.

"We would like to be respectful," Kerri Shimp said. "We would like the focus to be on the [Bergum] family."

Geralynn Bergum also told Miller on Thursday that while she's not asking for any donations or gifts, she's OK with the Shimps' fundraising plan "if that's what they need to do." She told Miller "I'm sure they're suffering, too" and said she was "touched" by the flowers the Shimp family sent her.

Her shoes in the wreckage

The accident is still under investigation by the State Patrol. One tow-truck operator who arrived at the scene said it was one of the worst he had seen in 42 years.

Yet, through the debris that once was their camper, Shimp saw one of her running shoes, drenched in oil. Then the other shoe. The insoles were intact.

Shimp, who ran her only other marathon last year in Chicago, had hoped to use Grandma's to qualify for the Boston Marathon. In the blink of an eye, that all changed, she said -- as did two families' lives.

"Boston doesn't matter anymore," Shimp said. "I want to run for them. I need to run for the Bergums."

Shimp contacted Grandma's Marathon officials this week by e-mail, saying that she had been "certain I wouldn't compete in the race" after the accident occurred.

"How could I do this while so many people were suffering?" she wrote to Grandma's officials. "But on Saturday evening," she continued in her e-mail note, "as I struggled with how to help this family, I had an epiphany. In a split second, it became very clear, I was to help with the gift I knew I could use. This is running."

"Running has always been the most therapeutic, soul-cleansing and enjoyable activity in my life," Shimp wrote. "Now I hope to help my family and I cope by raising money, in relationship to Grandma's marathon, for the Bergum family."

Shimp said she has contacted the Bremer Bank, but has yet to finalize plans for setting up a fund. She told Grandma's that she has set up a relief fund "from the Shimp Family to the Bergum Family" and is asking friends and others to donate.


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

Thanks for the update.

In this day and time, you see very little of good families. To be able to forgive and another to try and help is amazing.


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

Amen.


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## Thor (Apr 7, 2004)

Amen

Thor


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## nonny (Aug 14, 2005)

Amen!


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## NDJollyMon (Aug 22, 2003)

Close to home!

The Bergum's were from our city here in ND. They had moved to Lakeville. The father attended the University where my daughter has just graduated from. The two obituaries ran in our newspaper yesterday.
So sad.


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## akdream (Mar 21, 2006)

AMEN!! That was an incredible and sad story................


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

keep us posted if you learn more.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Wow, that one brings a tear to the old eye!

I can't even comprehend what these people (both families) are going through. But what wonderful spirit.

Let's be careful out there guys. We have always encouraged people to pick proper tow vehicles and sway control devices in the past. If there was ever any thought that we are 'just being overly cautious', this should put that notion to rest!

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## nynethead (Sep 23, 2005)

The rig could not have been a 29bhs as the article stated they have owned it for 3 years and the 29 is a 2006 first year model. Could be a 28BHS though. Either way both are too big for a tahoe. I tow my 29 with a crewcab pickup with a reece wd dual cam sway and have a 143.5" wb not a 116" wb. that's an extra 2 feet of wb.


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

Regardless of what make/model trailer it was, I tend to think our over cautious advice on which TV should be use on which trailer it spot on.


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## Travelers (Apr 6, 2006)

I live 5 miles from the crash site so I drove over there today. I wasn't going to report anything, but I just need to for some reason

The road is under construction with the Southbound lanes going down a 1-2 degree hill with the road bending slightly to the right about 100 yards prior to the crash site. Tire marks show the TV & TT moving right to left from the new gravel shoulder, accross the two lanes of traffic and up into the concrete barriers at a very sharp left angle. I could pick out the rear TT skid marks because they were narrow and in a straight line but it looked like the Tahoe was pushed sideways because the front skid marks were very wide - approx the wheebase of the Tahoe (a Tahoe would have anti-lock brakes anyway and probably would not show any skid marks in a straight line stop)

Like a lot of other roads we travel, it would be very difficult to react quickly if anything went wrong coming down that hill with a road turning right and then have a wheel catch the new, soft gravel shoulder as you're trying to react to a problem. I'm sure this all happened in a couple of seconds and no level of experience would have helped much.

Slow down and drive safe everyone....


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Thanks for the report, Travelers.

You are right, things can happen so fast. All the more reason we equip ourselves with proper equipment for the job, and then be constantly on guard for the unexpected.

Always have an alternative escape route (or two) in mind. ' Where would I go if everything went to h*** in the next second?'

It's trying. It's exhausting. It may just keep you alive!

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

Thanks for the report Travelers. I hope we are able to continue to follow this story and know exactly what the official report shows that happened. If for no other reason, we can learn from it.


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## Reverie (Aug 9, 2004)

Not to open a can of worms BUT we don't KNOW that this is a case of overweight, too little truck, inexperience or improper setup. In fact, it could be just about any one or more of these or other problems. It's too early to start concluding we know anything about this. We can't even discern what truck or trailer they had.

What aggrevates me about the theories of what constitutes a "safe setup" is that people are assuming that people will always overload their trailers. Every time I read someone telling someone they can't safely use their setup they indicate their conclusions are based upon not only the worst-case scenario of setups but also because it doesn't fit into their personal margin of comfort. They also assume that every weight they are handed is wrong.

Look, I'm the first to admit that you can't pull everything with whatever you want. What I wish I would see here is a little more realistic vision of what constitutes safe towing parameters. I would love to see people admit that there isn't a true, black-and-white answer to towing questions.

I have a family. They camp with me. I love my family. I would never, ever knowingly put them in harms way. I tow my trailer with caution, good safety equipment, a sparing load and always with an eye on safety. I don't advocate that everyone drive my setup. In fact, I advise people to look at the numbers and decide for themselves what they feel comfortable doing. Telling people that they definately can't tow something, even though they could is just sad.

Reverie


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## campmg (Dec 24, 2005)

Reverie, well said.

I too wish there were more firm standards of towing. What's the science behind the 20' to 110" wheelbase guideline? I don't question it but curious how it was developed. My wheelbase comes up a little short. Does the Equal-i-zer compensate for the difference? Am I ok if I switch to LT tires? What if I bought a Suburban but had a cheaper hitch and P tires? Does lower trailer weight compensate for a longer length? If I had a bigger truck I may get a bigger trailer and then it starts all over again.


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## CJ999 (Aug 11, 2005)

As a cop, people often ask me whats the worst thing I have ever seen is. Most people think it is going to be some grizzly homicide or some other horriific crime. Those things are bad but honestly, the worst things I have ever seen have ALL been traffic accidents.

Example: A family of five on vacation drops a tire off the pavement and rolls their Ford Explorer. Everyone is fine, except the seven year old daughter who unbeknownst to the parents had undone her seatbelt. She got ejected and the the Explorer rolled over her. None of the others were even scratched and there she was dead.

Example: Mother and son delivering newspapers at 4 am in the family pickup are waiting for a train to pass at a crossing. A semi truck driven by an intoxicated laborer approaches from behind, fails to stop and pushes them into the train. Miraculosuly, the mother and son lived. The semi driver and his passenger were the most gruesome sight I have ever seen.

Point: These are both nearly unbelieveable examples but they happened. I saw them. I was first onscene at the truck into the train. I dry heaved when I saw the semi truck occupants. There is no amount of safety that can be considered too much when it comes to putting your family into the car. People don't consider that none of us live forever, and the most likely way for any of us to go is a traffic accident. Don't learn it the hard way. TAKE ALL THE CARE THAT YOU CAN, and DRIVE UNDER THE SPEED LIMIT!

Sorry for soapboxing, but this post finally drew me out!


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

CJ999 said:


> As a cop, people often ask me whats the worst thing I have ever seen is. Most people think it is going to be some grizzly homicide or some other horriific crime. Those things are bad but honestly, the worst things I have ever seen have ALL been traffic accidents.
> 
> Example: A family of five on vacation drops a tire off the pavement and rolls their Ford Explorer. Everyone is fine, except the seven year old daughter who unbeknownst to the parents had undone her seatbelt. She got ejected and the the Explorer rolled over her. None of the others were even scratched and there she was dead.
> 
> ...


Hi. My husband of 20 years is a 31 year cop. He might get to retire one day








He too could tell stories that are hard to digest. The stories with sad endings from poor decisions leave a lot of unanswered questions. If we ever learn the details of the accident, it will undoubtedly have something for each and every one of us, whether it was human error or not. Rick's nephew is law enforcement in Fresno as well and I sure he experiences his share too.
When on a trip to Calif a few years ago, we watched a car hit the median, loose control and flip end over end over end.Rick saw a body fly out front window. We were the first to get stopped and ran to the scene, Rick one way, to the 13 old boy on the highway. I ran to the car which landed several hundred yards down the road on it's wheels. 18 year girl behind the wheel, completely strapped in by seat belts and bleeding. In her dazed state she asked where her brother was , I told her and told her he was fine (he wasn't).What was I to do? Calif, mid July on the hiway over 100 degrees. The gal looked at me and asked "where's my mom?"I just stared at her, as she was the only one in the car.Was she confused? the rear window was missing and I looked around. Up the embankment behind me lay her mother. The life flight arrived and everyone taken away. I called hospital next day. The boy had severe brain damage ( he lived I later learned, and relearned life) the mom was paralyzed for life from waist down.The 18 year was ok, physically anyway. The mom had unbuckled her seat belt so she could lean forward and talk to her kids, they were enroute to Oregon for family vacation and excited. The boy had removed his shoulder belt to fiddle with the stereo.The driver was reaching under he seat to reach a tape.Things most of us have done at one time or the other. 
I realize this doesn't really apply to Outbacker stuff, but yet, for anyone who reads our stories, they will tuck it in their minds and it will remind us to practice caution and safety. I have done a lot of really dumb things in my life, things I shake my own finger at myself for now. 
I do beleive that with us Outbackers, safety is number one and we have all taken measures in insure we have safety a #1 priority.Not everyone agrees what is the best but I do believe we all have our loved ones safety as priorities. If that were not the case, we wouldn't have so many posts asking advice!








Moral of the story. Be alert, be smart, be safe.
ok, I'm done too. On to more cheerful posts! (thanks for your input, I had been wondering if there were any cops)


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## NDJollyMon (Aug 22, 2003)

CJ999 said:


> As a cop, people often ask me whats the worst thing I have ever seen is. Most people think it is going to be some grizzly homicide or some other horriific crime. Those things are bad but honestly, the worst things I have ever seen have ALL been traffic accidents.
> 
> Point: These are both nearly unbelieveable examples but they happened. I saw them. I was first onscene at the truck into the train. I dry heaved when I saw the semi truck occupants. There is no amount of safety that can be considered too much when it comes to putting your family into the car. People don't consider that none of us live forever, and the most likely way for any of us to go is a traffic accident. Don't learn it the hard way. TAKE ALL THE CARE THAT YOU CAN, and DRIVE UNDER THE SPEED LIMIT!
> 
> ...


I agree. (







) I've seen some things I don't even talk about. It's etched into my memory to haunt me forever. You can't block it from your mind. It's worse yet when they survive long enough to know what happened...then breathe their last breath in your presence. Enough said.

Please...if you don't get anything else out of this thread...
Be safe out there, drive defensively, get rid of the distractions (cell phones!), and be courteous to others...even though they are driving like morons. Expect the unexpected. (and use those seat belts!)

Happy, safe camping. Arrive alive!


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

thought you mind relatet to this one: a couple months ago a gal intentionally ran head on into a propane truck to try to commit suicide. She lived and the truck didn't catch fire, no explosions, but it did tip over. The driver was scared enough to turn in his keys, said it wasn't worth it.


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## campmg (Dec 24, 2005)

My hats off to all you police officers and firefighters. You do an awesome job and deal with things many of us couldn't.


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## Grunt0311 (Aug 23, 2005)

Reverie said:


> Not to open a can of worms BUT we don't KNOW that this is a case of overweight, too little truck, inexperience or improper setup. In fact, it could be just about any one or more of these or other problems. It's too early to start concluding we know anything about this. We can't even discern what truck or trailer they had.
> 
> What aggrevates me about the theories of what constitutes a "safe setup" is that people are assuming that people will always overload their trailers. Every time I read someone telling someone they can't safely use their setup they indicate their conclusions are based upon not only the worst-case scenario of setups but also because it doesn't fit into their personal margin of comfort. They also assume that every weight they are handed is wrong.
> 
> ...


Well said Reverie, except I take exception to one thing. The numbers are there for a reason, the same as there are laws regarding everything. If we pick and choose which ones we are going to follow, what is the point of having any at all









Just my 2 cents
Bill


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Reverie said:


> What aggrevates me about the theories of what constitutes a "safe setup" is that people are assuming that people will always overload their trailers. Every time I read someone telling someone they can't safely use their setup they indicate their conclusions are based upon not only the worst-case scenario of setups but also because it doesn't fit into their personal margin of comfort. They also assume that every weight they are handed is wrong.


The way I look at it Rev, is that everything we give here is opinion (kind of what a forum is all about), and the individuals can - and will - make their own decisions regardless of what we opin.

That being said, I also believe it is our responsibility to each other to advocate a wide safety margin. I for one, would not want to be the person that told these poor people to ignore the safety warnings and "Go for it! You'll be fine!". Regardless of what the actual circumstances of this tragic incident were.

As far as always assuming the worst case scenario, for me personally, that comes from my engineering background. If I am building a race car, or high performance fighter plane, my safety margin will be reduced in the name of maximum potential performance. If I am building a bridge or a high-rise building, a wide safety margin before failure is paramount. So, yes, when it comes to offering advice on towing setups here, I will always assume worst case loading and conditions. If the combinations meets those criteria, then I can feel comfortable that the rig will breeze through any less demanding situation.

The person receiving the advice is, of course, welcome to ignore everything I offer, and do their own thing.









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

campmg said:


> My hats off to all you police officers and firefighters. You do an awesome job and deal with things many of us couldn't.
> [snapback]118309[/snapback]​


don't forget us wives! Law enforcement is an extremely hard profession to be married to. They cops cannot be closed at work and open and home and closed at work and open at home....etc....so, they TYPICALLY stay closed. Some can handle it, some can't. Raising kids with law enforcement spouse was interesting to say the least. I know, I know, not all are this way, but from my experience, many are, it's more the norm than not. I respect what Rick does, period. I wouldn't want the job for a million dollars. I told him this morning about the forum comments, he nonchantally added that he has seen bodies in more states of being mangled or shredded or squished than he can count. I know that when he comes upon that, it is no longer a person, he has to separate the identity to function, to perform his job.The ONLY time in 20 years he has commented to me showing he was troubled, is when it is children. I know by his mood, if it has been a trying night at work. I can read him like a book.I never press him. He has his own coping mechanisms and they seem to work for him. The easiest for many of them is to not address any issues at home.....they need things to run smoothly, therefore, they close off the issues that would normally be dealt with. That's when us wives have to buck up and learn our own coping mechanisms. We make it, or we don't. Would I do it again? not in a million years, however, I feel such sense of accomplishment, committment, loyalty and dedication to the relationship. Hard to explain. I will go ride a shift with him occasionally, as a refresher as to what he copes with day to day. It helps me prioritize our own lives issues. Some just aren't such an issue and I deal with them.
One more thing. He is on the Critical Incident Team, the team debriefs police and firefighters from other towns when a tragedy has happened. Although Rick can't communicate well in his personal life, from what I understand , he does one heckuva job on the team. Go figure. I was stunned when I learned this. Heck, he can't even communicate with me when I am suffering some sort of trauma or trying times! Puzzling, huh?








Hats off to all the ff and law enforcement everywhere!
National Law Enforcement Week every May in Washington D.C. , the most significant event I have attended in my lifetime


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## nonny (Aug 14, 2005)

As for me, I've buried two husbands, one following a car accident from which it can be assumed he would have survived if he'd have worn a seat belt. IMO, a couple of other family members, including my daughter, are alive today after horrendous accidents because they were wearing their seat belts. Needless to say, I am a staunch advocate for seat belt use and you buckle up in my car or you don't ride in it. Because of my life experiences, 2 of which left me without my life partner, I am very cautious, some say even overly cautious. I don't want my kids to be without any parent and I want to be around to enjoy my family for as long as God will allow and, though I believe in God's will, I also believe we can mess with His plan via poor choices and negligence. I also know that I couldn't live with myself if I brought harm to another human being. I don't mean to offend anyone with my words or opinions and I am certainly not a know-it-all nor do I want to be seen as one. Still, I'll continue to advocate for safety being the highest priority in the hopes that folks won't have to face the pain I have in my life. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

thanks for sharing your story and .02 worth


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

'It can happen to you'

I usually stay out of the 'Can I tow safely" because I am no expert. The one thing that I do not like reading is.........I am only towing 30 miles or so..............If it is on the road for 3 blocks or 300 miles, you should use the same mindset for safety.

I once refused to make a delivery of 2000 lbs (4 drums) of flammable product on my trailer 3 blocks away because we did not have any placards for my trailer. The boss said it was only 3 blocks, whats the big deal. I said if I load it on my trailer in the yard it is still illegal without placards.

John


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

About a year ago, I was particularly active on the forum concerning subjects of weights and towing safety. Part of that was due to being angry at myself for stupidly buying a 5'er than could not be safely towed by my existing TV. The mistake cost me about $25k to rectify by upgrading to a new TV and I didn't want others to make that same mistake.

I researched and studied weight issues quite extensively and shared whatever knowledge I had gained with the forum. That certainly didn't make me an expert, however. After a while, some tagged me as the "weight police", which I believe is intended to be a derogatory moniker at best. So, like John, I decided to pretty much stay out of the fray and became silent on the subject. Nevertheless, I'll, once again, offer up my opinion and you can determine for yourself if you are towing safely.

Weight and towing safety seems to be a very passionate issue for most everyone. There seems to be two camps for arguements. The first camp is the weight police and the 2nd camp is, well, almost everyone else. It also seems to be true that the weight police are those people towing within spec and the others are those who may be fudging things a tad in one area or the other.

For myself (not preaching to anyone else), I have come up with these rules:

1) The weight specs for your vehicle are black and white and they can't be changed. Thou shalt not exceed any of your weight ratings, no matter what distance you are pulling. If you do exceed any of your weight ratings, then you have two choices; larger TV or smaller TT.

2) Speed kills. IMHO, anything over 60 mph when towing is bad, except in rare situations where you are on an obviously good road, it is fair weather and day time, and there aren't any other cars anywhere around you, i.e., the lonely roads going across the desert in the west. Even then, my speed does not exceed 65 mph.

3) You can't make an F-150 into an F-550. No amount of chips, springs, different tiers, different wheels, trans coolers, etc will change the fact that you still have an F-150. See rule #1.

Finally, 4) Never pull "at your limit". Give yourself a comfortable margin.

A collection of towing links here . No flames, please, and apologies to those whom I may have offended.


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## Reverie (Aug 9, 2004)

This sort of dovetails into my points, don't exceed the ratings but it is possible to tow if you are within the ratings. I don't overload it, I don't overdrive it, and I don't abuse it. Would my setup benefit from more power or a longer wheelbase? Sure, which setup would not benefit from those things? But being safe and sane and watching my weights, speeds and setup means I can safely tow my trailer, family and gear.

I don't think I have called anyone the weight police (maybe I did but I don't recall doing that, at least on the board). I recognize that people have the best intentions and don't mean anything mean spirited. I hope I don't come across mean spirited because I'm not. I just want us to recognize that not everyone tows to the limits. Anyone that knows me will attest that I am pretty much a minimalist gear-wise. Of course, I can get away with that because I have friends that are not







.

We just bought a new grill to take on trips. Before I will load it on the trailer I have to find a corresponding amount of weight to take off. If I can't find the weight, it doesn't go on the trailer.

Someday I will purchase a larger vehicle, something along the 3/4 to 1 Ton range. Until that day comes I will keep up my mantra of less weight, smart loading and sane speeds. With a bigger truck the only thing that will change will be the ability to add more weight.

Reverie


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## OutbackPM (Sep 14, 2005)

This thread and others like it is what makes this forum work. To be safe you have to know what the issues are that make it so and make choices and judgements along the way. 
From this forum I ended up with a dual cam system, prodigy controller and eventually the 3/4 ton truck to be in my comfort zone. There are many other small details I have learnt in the 9 months I have had the Outback and collectively they all help improve road safety for all of us. Keep up the good work!!


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## W4DRR (May 17, 2005)

vdub said:


> 2) Speed kills. IMHO, anything over 60 mph when towing is bad, except in rare situations where you are on an obviously good road, it is fair weather and day time, and there aren't any other cars anywhere around you, i.e., the lonely roads going across the desert in the west. Even then, my speed does not exceed 65 mph.


It bears mentioning, since many newbies to towing don't realize this. Most states have a lowered speed limit for towing. Usually this is not posted, but ignorance is no excuse as they say. For example, here in my home state of Georgia, the limit is 55. Our neighbors are: SC-55, AL-65, FL-65, TN-70 (I guess it is no-holds-barred in Tennessee). I try to always hold it down to 60, even if the limit is higher. And in Georgia, I'm even pushing it by 5.

Bob


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## CamperDC (Oct 30, 2003)

Doxie, Thanks for the update.

While reading the story I could not help from being overwhelmed with sadness about what these two families are going through right now. This could have happened to anyone of us here at Outbackers and I cant help but think about how I would be handling myself right now if it had been my combo that went up and over that wall. Is there anything we Outbackers could do to help these families. What if we could somehow contribute to the fund that Shimp is setting up? Is that possible? Any thoughts?


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## Scooter (May 9, 2005)

*VDUB*
Great points and Well said.







No flames here.

* Become familiar with your setup (Don't rely on others to know for you) 
* Familiarize yourself with the Terminology and adheare to the proper reccomendations
GVW, GVWR, GCW, GCWR, GAW , GAWR , UVW, 
* Understand *Actual* towing capacities for your rig (GCWR-GVW)
* If you have concerns, can I ? should I ? Do the math - educate yourself.
* Validate all assumptions using available tools, (Two such tools are Tow Calculator pinned on this site, and use of your states scales). 
* Understand both GVWR* or* GCWR cannot be exceeded.
* Distribute your weights between TV and TT properly
* Stay within the 80% safe tow rules 
* Travel at safe speeds
Do this not only for your safety but the safety of others.


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## Lady Di (Oct 28, 2005)

Kudos to all the first responders and there spouses on this forum, as well as all of them. It has to be a hard place to be. I hear of wrecks, and cannot even imagine what those dedicated people encounter each day.


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## stapless (Feb 20, 2005)

vdub said:


> About a year ago, I was particularly active on the forum concerning subjects of weights and towing safety.Â Part of that was due to being angry at myself for stupidly buying a 5'er than could not be safely towed by my existing TV.Â The mistake cost me about $25k to rectify by upgrading to a new TV and I didn't want others to make that same mistake.
> 
> I researched and studied weight issues quite extensively and shared whatever knowledge I had gained with the forum.Â That certainly didn't make me an expert, however.Â After a while, some tagged me as the "weight police", which I believe is intended to be a derogatory moniker at best.Â So, like John, I decided to pretty much stay out of the fray and became silent on the subject.Â Nevertheless, I'll, once again, offer up my opinion and you can determine for yourself if you are towing safely.
> 
> ...


VERY well stated!! you can sign me up for the 'weight police' club as well!!

It's like seatbelts. you probably get away with not wearing them 99.9% of the time. the one time you need them, your pretty glad that they are there. I'm not saying you need a full ton truck to pull a pop up, and even an appropriate set up can have problems, but I'm all for the margin of safety factor. the more, the better.

scott

on edit, it would be an interesting poll to see how many people have actually weighed there set up. how many actually have run the numbers for the TV/TT combo's they are pulling.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

stapless said:


> it would be an interesting poll to see how many people have actually weighed there set up. how many actually have run the numbers for the TV/TT combo's they are pulling.


You can put me down in the 'Yes' column for that survey.

It's pretty easy for me, as I am lucky enough to have an accurate truck scale at my place of business. It can be a real eye opener to take the time at a scale to see what different load configurations can do to a setup. Well worth the effort if you have the opportunity.









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

tdvffjohn said:


> 'It can happen to you'
> 
> I usually stay out of the 'Can I tow safely" because I am no expert. The one thing that I do not like reading is.........I am only towing 30 miles or so..............If it is on the road for 3 blocks or 300 miles, you should use the same mindset for safety.
> 
> ...


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

Doxie-Doglover said:


> tdvffjohn said:
> 
> 
> > 'It can happen to you'
> ...


No...I can't.


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## Hokie (Jul 10, 2006)

Through my reading of old posts, I came across this thread and was immediately interested in it. You can count me in as a person who probably hits the weight scales a good 4 to 5 times a year. Usually before big week long trips I hit the CAT scale on the way out of town. It just makes me feel better and it only costs $8.50.

Anyway, this story really interested me so I did some more Googling and read all of the news articles. I did not find any further investigative results. However, my internet search did find a thread on rv.net that discussed the accident. I was taken back my one particular response. It appears that the wife of the driver, Kerri Shimp, became a new member of that group to post the following message. I am copying it here as simple FYI. I hope this does not stir any controversy, that is not my intent.

We are heading out of town tomorrow and you can bet that I will be keeping it at 60 or below and extra cautious.

-Sam

_I am the mother of the family of 6 driving in the Tahoe and just came across your heartless blog attempt. It simply troubles me at the speculation you have put forth. NO! We were not in the passing lane driving too fast, we were in the driving lane and the camper started to sway and then rock as we went down the hill between highway 62 and Valley View Road. The commercial inspector has inspected both the trailer and vehcile. The vehicle was big enough, we had the correct hitch, and system in place to haul the trailer. The accident is under investigation, it was a tragic accident that changed ALL of our lives in a split second. Of course we didn't intend for this to happen, and it sickens me that it was the conculsion you jumped to when you heard of this story. I pray for you that you never have to go through this type of a situation or accident. Nor do I hope you are ever a person that this type of thing happens to. I have compasion, even for people such as yourself that show heartlessness in our time of tragedy.

Kerri Shimp _

_We are the family that you all are discussing on this blog. I do have to tell you that it simply makes me sick how much speculation you are putting into this. No we were not trying to be hero's and driving in the passing lane, we were in the driving lane. The commercial inspector has inspected the Tahoe and the trailer and BOTH were within legal limits and regulations. NO, we were not speeding. NO, the Tahoe isn't too small to pull that trailer, again, it is heavy enough and we had the proper system in-place to haul the trailer. NO, we were not too cheap (as one person put it) to have trailer brakes installed, they were there. This was a tragic accident, no rhyme or reason for it to happen. NO, it isn't a criminal investigation, as another person put it. So until any of you are in this type of a situation, do not judge or respond to such a tragedy. You can never "guess" how you will respond if you are in this situation. It happened in a split second, not to any intentional neglegence, construction or speed.

Kerri Shimp _


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## N7OQ (Jun 10, 2006)

Hokie said:


> Through my reading of old posts, I came across this thread and was immediately interested in it. You can count me in as a person who probably hits the weight scales a good 4 to 5 times a year. Usually before big week long trips I hit the CAT scale on the way out of town. It just makes me feel better and it only costs $8.50.
> 
> Anyway, this story really interested me so I did some more Googling and read all of the news articles. I did not find any further investigative results. However, my internet search did find a thread on rv.net that discussed the accident. I was taken back my one particular response. It appears that the wife of the driver, Kerri Shimp, became a new member of that group to post the following message. I am copying it here as simple FYI. I hope this does not stir any controversy, that is not my intent.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the find, Just goes to show you that we should not assume things when we don't know the facts. I felt that because I tow with a Tahoe I would have been hung in the first tree for doing so, because of this thread.


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## LarryTheOutback (Jun 15, 2005)

Verstelle said:


> Thanks for the find, Just goes to show you that we should not assume things when we don't know the facts. I felt that because I tow with a Tahoe I would have been hung in the first tree for doing so, because of this thread.


We still don't know the facts. Even if this person is who they say they are, it's likely that they don't have the full facts either.

Accidents like this (similar to aviation accidents) have multiple causes or contributing factors. Accidents don't just happen, as this person states. Instead there is _always _ a "rhyme or reason." The key is the learn from the accident; both individuals (us) and institutions (laws and regulations) can take learnings away from these situations, as tragic as they are.

I, for one, still take our discussions in the spirit in which they were intended: to try to make some sense of this accident and see how it might apply to our individual towing situations. Frankly if this thread has scared just one person into a better TV, sway control, lower speeds, etc. then it's served it's purpose.

I'm still concerned every time I see a short wheelbase vehicle towing a long trailer. It may be _legal_, but it doesn't seem _prudent_. Same with trailers going down the road at a legal speed of 70+mph.

Ed


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

Well said, Ed!


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## N7OQ (Jun 10, 2006)

LarryTheOutback said:


> Thanks for the find, Just goes to show you that we should not assume things when we don't know the facts. I felt that because I tow with a Tahoe I would have been hung in the first tree for doing so, because of this thread.


We still don't know the facts. Even if this person is who they say they are, it's likely that they don't have the full facts either.

Accidents like this (similar to aviation accidents) have multiple causes or contributing factors. Accidents don't just happen, as this person states. Instead there is _always _ a "rhyme or reason." The key is the learn from the accident; both individuals (us) and institutions (laws and regulations) can take learnings away from these situations, as tragic as they are.

I, for one, still take our discussions in the spirit in which they were intended: to try to make some sense of this accident and see how it might apply to our individual towing situations. Frankly if this thread has scared just one person into a better TV, sway control, lower speeds, etc. then it's served it's purpose.

I'm still concerned every time I see a short wheelbase vehicle towing a long trailer. It may be _legal_, but it doesn't seem _prudent_. Same with trailers going down the road at a legal speed of 70+mph.

Ed
[/quote]

Ed that is all fine but having spent 20 years in the AF and I was involved in more than a few Aircraft accidents and the most harmful thing was everyone's speculation of what happened without any facts. Families have to contend with a loss of a loved one and then rumours start spreading and now they have to live with the though that maybe their loved one was the cause to this accident even if it is not true and in most cases it is not.

Now using that tow length table for a 130" wheel base Suburban, it can only tow a 25 foot trailer so there are a lot Outbackers towing with a Suburban that are out of the safety zone. A Suburban 1500 is the same the same rig as a Tahoe only 14 inches longer in fact my Tahoe owners manual is Says Suburban on the cover not Tahoe. So a Suburban will only gives you a 3 foot advantage over a Tahoe. So is a Suburban a short wheel base TV too?

Now I tow a 23 footer so I'm 1.5 feet to long and you tow a 26 footer so you are a foot to long. But the truth is a Suburban and a Tahoe has a short rear wheel to receiver hitch length shorter that most TV's and this gives it a advantage plus TT's today are lighter per foot than they use to be that helps. Add a good anti sway system and you can safely break that length table.


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## LarryTheOutback (Jun 15, 2005)

Agreed.

However, I've seen Tahoe's towing 28-foot trailers and above. That's what I'm referring to.

Ed


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## mswalt (Sep 14, 2004)

I try never to make assumptions. You know what they say about *assume.*

Mark


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## N7OQ (Jun 10, 2006)

LarryTheOutback said:


> Agreed.
> 
> However, I've seen Tahoe's towing 28-foot trailers and above. That's what I'm referring to.
> 
> Ed


Yep you are right, that is way I stopped at a 23RS. The wife and Son kept getting excited every time they went into a larger Outback, I had to bring them back to reality and we decided the 23 was as large as we felt safe towing. Now I wanted a Suburban but sense it was the wife's rig she wanted the shorter Tahoe.

Well I guess we kicked this horse enough


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