# Dry Camped This Weekend



## Calvin&Hobbes (May 24, 2006)

We set up for the Relay for Life this weekend (Friday AM to Sunday AM) and used the RQS for "Home base". It was held at our local school, out on the soccer/baseball/ track fields. This was the first time we ran any length of time without hook ups, and in the back of my mind I was doing a "dry run" for any disaster that might arise whereas the OB would be "home" for a period of time. Here goes...

1. Topping off the water tank... Man, thats a big tank. 50 Gallons! It took me about 30 minutes to fill her up. If you fill too fast, it spits back at you, so it was a slow fill.

2. The Honda eu2000i was our superstar (Well, next to me anyway). She ran a good 12 hours on the first day, and kept everything topped off. I set it up about 20 feet behind the OB, exhaust pointing away, and we could not hear her while inside. In fact, while we were outside, by the elevated- rolling fireplace, we couldn't hear her. We could, however, hear the screaming 4000 watt generator 4 campers away, that kept running until 1:00 AM. But I digress. Switching over all the bedroom lights from the 7 watt to the 4 watt bulbs allowed the 12 volt deep cycle to last a little longer. LED's are on the mod list, as well as 2 Trojan sixes- but that mod is way down the road.

3. The water supply lasted suprisingly long. I now know what all you dry campers meant by the "hammering" of the water pump. Expansion tank mod on my list. By the last day, I had so much water left that I had enough to rinse off the outside of the OB with an extended hose from the outdoor kitchen before we left. That sure made a few people take notice, especially the folks who were tenting!

4. Knowing that the OB was a tad bit heavier that a soccer team, I ran the tandems up onto some 2X12's, to distribute the weight. I forgot though, to use a wider pads for the stab's- I had to re-extend those after a few hours, after we settled-wiggled in.

5. The main heater did a great job (we usually run a little electric heater while at a campground- rather use their power than ours- seeing as we've already paid for it). By the second day, I didn't wake up when the F-16 took off. I mean when the burner fired.

6. While the Honda did a great job, running the Microwave was marginal. With everything electrical shut down, the Micro did OK. The initial start up was what confused the Honda, it would surge and then the Micro would surge, and so on. I switched the Honda's ECO switch off, let her spin up to speed, and then it was OK.

7. Bathroom usage. Well, with a 2 and 3 year old just going through potty training, that was a treat. My 2 year old just wants to flush the toilet for the heck of it. Still we did ok- two days, just cleared the 1/3 mark on all tanks. And this year I am going "green" on the black tank, so no Formaldehyde (sp?). So the only thing in the tanks was Calgon, and I'm looking at other options (Rid?) for longer term solutions.

So, We had a great time. Our Rally raised over 100 K for Cancer research, Our team raised a few thousand dollars (one team raised 17 K!) and I was able to experiment with the abilities of the RQS...


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## Ghosty (Jan 17, 2005)

Calvin&Hobbes said:


> 7. Bathroom usage. And this year I am going "green" on the black tank, so no Formaldehyde (sp?). So the only thing in the tanks was Calgon, and I'm looking at other options (Rid?) for longer term solutions.


I would strongly suggest not going completely green .. you can find many RV waste products that are free of Formaldehyde (of course I am just the opposite and look for things with allot of Formaldehyde - but I digress)... going completely green can cause massive consequences in your tank -- smells that will be very hard to get rid of - growths -- etc etc


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

Congrats on your first "dry" weekend. Welcome to the club! It will open up a LOT of wonderful camping for you.

Agree with Ghosty on your decision to go Green on the Black tank. This will only bring very bad results over time. Black tanks go into proper sewers....get treated correctly. I'm fine with using the chemical I need to keep my tank clean and effective.


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## bradnjess (Mar 25, 2007)

Congrats on a very successful Relay for Life, 100K thats awesome. I hope to get involved w/ our local Relay for Life here, My great aunt recently lost her fight with pancreatic cancer and was very involved w/ Relay for Life before that.

Go ahead and go green with that black tank, if you do it right it will actually be better. We tried the purple drop-ins at first and were not happy with the results. I found a website about using bacteria treatments in rv tanks. The bacteria works just like rid-x but much faster. I won't go into too much detail but basically the foul smell from a black tank comes from anaerobic bacteria that is naturally there and will feed any organic waste and break all solids down. (sorry for the visuals) If you introduce aerobic bacteria (good bacteria) into the tank it will do the same as anaerobic bacteria (bad bacteria) but will produce no smell while doing it. When you dump at a campground you will actually be helping the system not making it work harder. The quickest and easiest way to start is find you nearest boating store and pick up a bottle of K.O.(Kills Odors), follow the instruction on the bottle and your done. Another good product is Eco-Save, available in liquid or dry. Just be careful what you use to clean the bathroom, no bleach or harsh cleaners and no anti-bacterial soaps. Next to the K.O. on the shelf is C.P. (Cleans Potties) that is safe to clean with. Put some in your grey tank too it will eat grease, hair, food particles, etc.

Hope you have success with your new green waste tanks. Congrats again on a great Relay for Life.

Brad


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## bradnjess (Mar 25, 2007)

Here is the website I referred too. Good luck.

http://www.phrannie.org/macerator.html


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## Yianni (Aug 30, 2006)

Congratulations on a great weekend.
Have you considered that you may have a kink in your fill hose?
We have a 2007 25rss. Our water psi at home is 90 and I fill our tank
from empty in about 3 or 4 minutes. The water starts to come out the vent 
hole only when it's full.
Good luck!


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## jetjane (Feb 8, 2007)

Like Yianni, I also fill my fresh water tank with the water pressure at full blast with no problems. You must have a problem with either the fill hose or maybe the vent hose.


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## bentpixel (Sep 2, 2006)

> 1. Topping off the water tank... Man, that's a big tank. 50 Gallons! It took me about 30 minutes to fill her up. If you fill too fast, it spits back at you, so it was a slow fill.


Might want to check the inside tubing. Mine had a slight rise to it preventing water flow from a jug that I count not adapt the plastic filler I use on a hose. I removed about one inch of tubing and rerouted to get a proper slope.

Also noted that this is a good place to inspect from time to time. I heard the pump start and stop when no one had a facet open; I found a water seep from the check valve on the city water side. (without this check valve the pump would shoot water out the city water connector. thumb down )

Good luck on the "green" black tank. I tried a dealer recommended treatment. Family was not happy.







Switched back to Odorloss. Odorloss is formaldehyde free.

My $.02's,
Scott


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## Calvin&Hobbes (May 24, 2006)

Thanks for the suggestions on the fill hose- I had pulled the panel that exposes the water pump and hoses, looking for a suitable location for the expansion tank. I did not see any kinks in the fill hose, unless it kinks under the subfloor. I will double check the vent hose though, as it makes sense if this was kinked/blocked. It took a bit before it spit back, indicating that maybe pressure built up before bleching.


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## Calvin&Hobbes (May 24, 2006)

On Edit..... One other thing that "raised it's ugly head"...

After a couple of hours of running on the generator, the big 30 Amp plug plugged into the 15 Amp adapter which is plugged into the generator.... jiggled loose and we lost connection. Didn't notice it until I came into the camper, and noted the Microwave display was out. I thought the gen had run out of gas (we couldn't hear it when it was running, so we could'nt tell if it was off) but when I checked, the plug was half out.
I splayed the blades a little to tighten up the connection, but it still wiggled loose. Had to Macgiver a small bungee to hold the camper cable up and into the generator. I need to do one of the following...

1. Find a better adapter
2. Find one of those double 15 amp to a 30 amp adapter plug, for stability
3. Buy a second 2000 with a parrallel cable and 30 amp female plug.

I vote for #3. Anyone have a eu2000i they'd like to sell?


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

Glad you did good on your first dry camping experience...

Congrats on a great Relay!


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## MJRey (Jan 21, 2005)

Calvin&Hobbes said:


> 6. While the Honda did a great job, running the Microwave was marginal. With everything electrical shut down, the Micro did OK. The initial start up was what confused the Honda, it would surge and then the Micro would surge, and so on. I switched the Honda's ECO switch off, let her spin up to speed, and then it was OK.


The microwave puts a very sudden demand on our EU2000 so what I do now with that or DWs blowdryer is to turn off the ECO Throttle so that it's running at full speed before turning on those devices. It handles the load much better that way and doesn't surge. The other thing I have to do with mine when running the microwave is turn off the 12volt power/charger part of the converter. I do this by switching off the circuit breaker labeled 12V/Gen. This reduces the demand by a couple of amps and keeps the generator from overloading. We dry camp a lot and only rarely need the microwave so while this procedure is a bit of a hassle it doesn't happen very often.


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## Yianni (Aug 30, 2006)

MJRey said:


> 6. While the Honda did a great job, running the Microwave was marginal. With everything electrical shut down, the Micro did OK. The initial start up was what confused the Honda, it would surge and then the Micro would surge, and so on. I switched the Honda's ECO switch off, let her spin up to speed, and then it was OK.


The microwave puts a very sudden demand on our EU2000 so what I do now with that or DWs blowdryer is to turn off the ECO Throttle so that it's running at full speed before turning on those devices. It handles the load much better that way and doesn't surge. The other thing I have to do with mine when running the microwave is turn off the 12volt power/charger part of the converter. I do this by switching off the circuit breaker labeled 12V/Gen. This reduces the demand by a couple of amps and keeps the generator from overloading. We dry camp a lot and only rarely need the microwave so while this procedure is a bit of a hassle it doesn't happen very often.
[/quote]

This is obvious, but make sure your refridgerator is in the propane only
mode and not auto. The dealer told me it will choose electric first and this will
put more load on your gen.


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## aplvlykat (Jan 25, 2004)

I had the same problem with the fill a while back. It turned out to be right at the tank where the flex line connected. It was just to tight of a bend. I guess with the movement or flexing of the tank kinked the line. I think I used a PVC 90 and a short piece of tubing to fix the problem. It took longer to gain access then to do the repair. Kirk


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Like other's said, check the fresh water vent. Something sounds restricted.

For the black tank, I personally like Odorloss, but I'd use anything that works. It's almost hard to find chemicals with formeldahyde any more... most brands have alternatives that work well.

Now, if you are planning more dry camping, I'd vote for a pair of 6V's (or 2 larger 12V's) before anything else. Other than A/C and microwave, everything should run fine on the 12V system. That should allow a significant reduction in the fuel use running that generator. Heck, when we are dry camping, we use the blue flame for heating food and forego the generator all together. Works great for several days of use without even having to use LED lights or other severe power saving measures. With the Solar this year, we should do even better.


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## KampinwitKids (May 24, 2006)

Calvin&Hobbes said:


> On Edit..... One other thing that "raised it's ugly head"...
> 
> After a couple of hours of running on the generator, the big 30 Amp plug plugged into the 15 Amp adapter which is plugged into the generator.... jiggled loose and we lost connection. Didn't notice it until I came into the camper, and noted the Microwave display was out. I thought the gen had run out of gas (we couldn't hear it when it was running, so we could'nt tell if it was off) but when I checked, the plug was half out.
> I splayed the blades a little to tighten up the connection, but it still wiggled loose. Had to Macgiver a small bungee to hold the camper cable up and into the generator. I need to do one of the following...
> ...


4. Sell Kampinwitkids the eu2000i and upgrade to the 3000, then when we have a rally at a dry campground, I can come to your rolling suite, and enjoy the A/C and doughnuts.

Brendan is looking forward to seeing Colton again! can't wait!


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## Calvin&Hobbes (May 24, 2006)

Hummmm. Decisions.... Well, anway, Colton cant wait to go camping again either. He was about ready to bust out of his skin when we went to the Relay for life, so I can just imagine how excited he will be when we go north. Looking forward to seeing you folks again!


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## Castle Rock Outbackers (Jan 18, 2004)

Hold on a sec...are you really dry camping if you are using a generator? Does dry mean no water supply only? I guess in my book, dry camping is pulling onto a gravel spot and setting up camp with the water in your tanks and power in your battery (or batteries).

Randy


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

" won't go into too much detail but basically the foul smell from a black tank comes from anaerobic bacteria that is naturally there and will feed any organic waste and break all solids down. (sorry for the visuals) If you introduce aerobic bacteria (good bacteria) into the tank it will do the same as anaerobic bacteria (bad bacteria) but will produce no smell while doing it."

From 25 years running water and wastewater treatment plants and laboratories - anaerobic bacteria do not require oxygen to thrive/stay alive. Aerobes do. Is your black tank aerobic, or anaerobic? Oxygen present, or not? Probably not. Oh, and the idea that anaerobes are "bad" and aerobes are "good" doesn't make a lot of sense. Either will, eventually, digest the protein in the tank (but it will take a LOT longer than you are going to want to leave it there). Both will produce unacceptable odors. But, that's what the tank vent is for, to get the odors up and away from your snoot.

We use a cap of laundry detergent, and a handful of 20 mule team borax. The detergent keeps the inside walls of the tank slippery, and the borax softens the water somewhat, contributing to the effect. I drop when full, and flush thoroughly, then fill the tank half up with the flusher, then drop again.

"When you dump at a campground you will actually be helping the system not making it work harder."

That depends on what sort of system you are dumping into. If a regular sewer, they can be treated aerobically or anaerobically, and are usually both, at different stages of treatment. If it is going into a septic system, that is an anaerobic system and aerobic material added doesn't do it any good. Caveat: the amount you are putting into the sewer system is is too small to be significant in the treatment process, unless it is a really small system or it takes a whole lot of RV waste.

Just what works for me.

Sluggo


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## bradnjess (Mar 25, 2007)

Sluggo54 said:


> " won't go into too much detail but basically the foul smell from a black tank comes from anaerobic bacteria that is naturally there and will feed any organic waste and break all solids down. (sorry for the visuals) If you introduce aerobic bacteria (good bacteria) into the tank it will do the same as anaerobic bacteria (bad bacteria) but will produce no smell while doing it."
> 
> From 25 years running water and wastewater treatment plants and laboratories - anaerobic bacteria do not require oxygen to thrive/stay alive. Aerobes do. Is your black tank aerobic, or anaerobic? Oxygen present, or not? Probably not. Oh, and the idea that anaerobes are "bad" and aerobes are "good" doesn't make a lot of sense. Either will, eventually, digest the protein in the tank (but it will take a LOT longer than you are going to want to leave it there). Both will produce unacceptable odors. But, that's what the tank vent is for, to get the odors up and away from your snoot.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to challenge your 25 plus years of experience, but only one type of bacteria can exist either anaerobic of aerobic. One will always win over the other. W/o oxygen anaerobic will win if aerobic are introduced w/ ample oxygen they will win. With proper venting of tanks there should be enough oxygen introduced to the system w/ each flush. To take "bad" and "good" out of context it doesn't make since, the "good" and "bad" terms are used to describe which bacteria are desirable in your system. The stuff in your black tank stink no doubt, its is my understanding that anaerobic bacteria produces more stink when breaking down waste, aerobic do not. The intent is not to completely break down all waste before you dump, we all know that's not possible. The idea is to get the process started, and it will help the CG septic system, if only by not adding chemicals that kill ALL bacteria. The treatment you use may work for you, personally I just don't get the water softener thing, but if it works keep doing it, at least you're not embalming your waste. I have yet to go to a CG that is on city sewer, I'm sure they're out there but I would guess most are septic. What I put in a septic system might not make a difference but multiply that by the number of camp sites times the days the CG is open and that equals alot of RV waste. Based on what I see on the shelves at RV stores chemical treatments are by far the most popular. I would have to conclude that there isn't much of either type of bacteria in many CG septic systems due to the high amounts of chemicals dumped into it everyday, preventing the system from working the way it was intended to. This means more clean outs which will lead to higher CG fees. In the end neither of us are adding nasty chemicals to city or septic systems, there are plenty of bacteria treatments for RV's out there so it is an acceptable way to treat waste. I don't think we should be discouraging anything that utilizes a natural way of treating black tank waste.
Brad


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## Lady Di (Oct 28, 2005)

Castle Rock Outbackers said:


> Hold on a sec...are you really dry camping if you are using a generator? Does dry mean no water supply only? I guess in my book, dry camping is pulling onto a gravel spot and setting up camp with the water in your tanks and power in your battery (or batteries).
> 
> Randy


Dry this case means no hookups. Generator can be used, and tanks can be filled and emptied. Water has to be fetched, and tanks have to be emptied into portable tanks which are taken to dump sites to empty.

All of this is necessary when camping for more than a weekend.


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Lady Di said:


> Hold on a sec...are you really dry camping if you are using a generator? Does dry mean no water supply only? I guess in my book, dry camping is pulling onto a gravel spot and setting up camp with the water in your tanks and power in your battery (or batteries).
> 
> Randy


Dry this case means no hookups. Generator can be used, and tanks can be filled and emptied. Water has to be fetched, and tanks have to be emptied into portable tanks which are taken to dump sites to empty.

All of this is necessary when camping for more than a weekend.
[/quote]

Oh boy, here comes the debate......









Personally, we follow Randy's thinking (I like the sounds of birds, not generators... even quiet Honda's), but I think in general, the term "Dry Camping" is as vauge as when Keystone calls my 7500lb Outback "Lightweight"









Everyone should go out and enjoy their version of "Camping"


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## Guest (May 9, 2008)

I always thought of dry camping as just using what you brought with you. Maybe that's just camping versus RVing. I thought that I had it down pat, but now I'm Soooooo confused!!


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

bradnjess said:


> " won't go into too much detail but basically the foul smell from a black tank comes from anaerobic bacteria that is naturally there and will feed any organic waste and break all solids down. (sorry for the visuals) If you introduce aerobic bacteria (good bacteria) into the tank it will do the same as anaerobic bacteria (bad bacteria) but will produce no smell while doing it."
> 
> From 25 years running water and wastewater treatment plants and laboratories - anaerobic bacteria do not require oxygen to thrive/stay alive. Aerobes do. Is your black tank aerobic, or anaerobic? Oxygen present, or not? Probably not. Oh, and the idea that anaerobes are "bad" and aerobes are "good" doesn't make a lot of sense. Either will, eventually, digest the protein in the tank (but it will take a LOT longer than you are going to want to leave it there). Both will produce unacceptable odors. But, that's what the tank vent is for, to get the odors up and away from your snoot.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to challenge your 25 plus years of experience, but only one type of bacteria can exist either anaerobic of aerobic. One will always win over the other. W/o oxygen anaerobic will win if aerobic are introduced w/ ample oxygen they will win. With proper venting of tanks there should be enough oxygen introduced to the system w/ each flush. To take "bad" and "good" out of context it doesn't make since, the "good" and "bad" terms are used to describe which bacteria are desirable in your system. The stuff in your black tank stink no doubt, its is my understanding that anaerobic bacteria produces more stink when breaking down waste, aerobic do not. The intent is not to completely break down all waste before you dump, we all know that's not possible. The idea is to get the process started, and it will help the CG septic system, if only by not adding chemicals that kill ALL bacteria. The treatment you use may work for you, personally I just don't get the water softener thing, but if it works keep doing it, at least you're not embalming your waste. I have yet to go to a CG that is on city sewer, I'm sure they're out there but I would guess most are septic. What I put in a septic system might not make a difference but multiply that by the number of camp sites times the days the CG is open and that equals alot of RV waste. Based on what I see on the shelves at RV stores chemical treatments are by far the most popular. I would have to conclude that there isn't much of either type of bacteria in many CG septic systems due to the high amounts of chemicals dumped into it everyday, preventing the system from working the way it was intended to. This means more clean outs which will lead to higher CG fees. In the end neither of us are adding nasty chemicals to city or septic systems, there are plenty of bacteria treatments for RV's out there so it is an acceptable way to treat waste. I don't think we should be discouraging anything that utilizes a natural way of treating black tank waste.
Brad
[/quote]

"but only one type of bacteria can exist either anaerobic of aerobic. One will always win over the other. W/o oxygen anaerobic will win if aerobic are introduced w/ ample oxygen they will win. With proper venting of tanks there should be enough oxygen introduced to the system w/ each flush."

Nope. Some types of treatment, lagoons for instance, utilize both anaerobes and aerobes in the same environment. Lagoons are shallow ponds; a healthy lagoon will be aerobic in its upper strata and anaerobic in the lower. The boundary line will move up and down with temperature, sunlight, wind, and some other factors. It is a misconception that aerobically treated waste is less smelly than aerobically treated waste. Either way, what is happening is that organic material is being digested. Neither is pleasant to the olfactory nerve. The idea that venting and flushing is going to supply adequate oxygen to maintain aerobes is questionable, at best. Treatment plants, in an environment far less toxic than your black tank, utilize aerators to maintain O2 levels, and at that, it can be a challenge.

"I don't think we should be discouraging anything that utilizes a natural way of treating black tank waste."

What is natural? The most natural way of treating feces is to dump it on the ground and let time, sunshine, and rainfall work its wonders. Not real acceptable in our world. Or you could dump it in a flowing stream; the old (and accurate) rule of thumb says that seven miles of flowing water will clean it up very nicely. Also not acceptable.
All any waste treatment system does is round up these natural ways of handling the disposal problem and concentrate them in time and space. No magic. No chemicals, except possibly to treat the effluent to kill remaining bacteria, and even that is morphing to non-chemical means.

Sluggo


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## Calvin&Hobbes (May 24, 2006)

My definition of "dry camping" is going somewhere that doesnt have water, electric or sewer *on site*, and we have to provide for whatever we dont have. I guess "self sufficent" is the word I'm looking for.


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## camping479 (Aug 27, 2003)

Dry camping; full hookups and no rain


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## Calvin&Hobbes (May 24, 2006)

camping479 said:


> Dry camping; full hookups and no rain


lol Mike- My DW would add, "_now thats RV'ing_...!"


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## Guest (May 10, 2008)

camping479 said:


> Dry camping; full hookups and no rain


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

Calvin&Hobbes said:


> My definition of "dry camping" is going somewhere that doesnt have water, electric or sewer *on site*, and we have to provide for whatever we dont have. I guess "self sufficent" is the word I'm looking for.


That just about covers my definition as well.


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

and here all along I thought it meant camping with out the benefit of tasty libations.


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

hatcityhosehauler said:


> and here all along I thought it meant camping with out the benefit of tasty libations.


Camping and no tasty libations?

How dare you.


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## Lady Di (Oct 28, 2005)

Would prefer to not have to use a generator, but if we are going to have heat, and keep the fridge running, we could either keep a large pattery bank that would give us more than enouth power for a week, or carry a generator.

We now have a Honda, and even got a comment on how very quiet it was when we last 
dry camped'.

Yes, solar would be even quieter, but get enough cloudy days, and that won't do the jjob.


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