# Braking Problems & Controller Settings?



## folsom_five (Jan 10, 2008)

Hi all-

Here's my problem. Ever since I bought my 2008 31rqs I have been having a problem with the brakes. They would engace, then soon afterwards they would dis-engage. Most of the time they would engage again after a couple of seconds.
The tech at Holman that I talked to said it sounded like my brake controller was bad. So I replaced my controller with a new Valley Oddyssey.

Well, I still have the problem and the controller is displaying "S.C" while the brakes disengage. This is a Short Circuit condition according to the manual.

I now have the TT at my local service shop (not Holman) and they were only able to reproduce my problem with a Prodigy controller (all they had) and they had to put the power level at 10 and the boost at 3. Not familar with Prodigy, so not sure how this correlated back to my settings.

They are saying that I have my controller set "too high". I have it at 5.5 power and boost level2. They are saying that is way too high. Their explanation is that these controllers are designed for up to 4 axles so I should only be setting the power to ~3.5. This doesn't really make sense to me, but maybe they are correct??

I am thinking that regardless of the number of axles I have, and regardless of the power setting my controller is set at, I should not get a "SC" condition. they are saying I am putting too much power through the wires and that is what is causing this condition.

What do others on this site think??

--Greg


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Greg,

I am not familiar with your particular brand of controller, but I would tend to believe what it's telling you. Somewhere in the system there is an intermittent short circuit. From what you are describing - and this is pure speculation - I can envision a wire chafing against the frame somewhere. When you initially apply the brakes, the wire comes into contact with a ground, and shorts. Then, as the braking process continues (weight shift, etc.), the wire moves away from the contact point.

The bummer is, these sorts of things can be really hard to track down. The short could be in the trailer, the truck, or maybe even a break inside the pigtail. What does not make sense to me is the claim that your controller settings are wrong. Incorrect settings would effect braking ability, or the wheels locking up, but they are not going to cause the controller to drop off line.

I'd stay on the shop to find the problem, and not let them pass the buck off onto you and walk away from the problem.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## folsom_five (Jan 10, 2008)

PDX_Doug said:


> Greg,
> 
> I am not familiar with your particular brand of controller, but I would tend to believe what it's telling you. Somewhere in the system there is an intermittent short circuit. From what you are describing - and this is pure speculation - I can envision a wire chafing against the frame somewhere. When you initially apply the brakes, the wire comes into contact with a ground, and shorts. Then, as the braking process continues (weight shift, etc.), the wire moves away from the contact point.
> 
> ...


Thanks Doug. I agree with what you have said.

I have pulled a couple of different trailers to eliminate my truck as the problem, and all have braked correctly without displaying the SC condition.

I will keep ontop of the shop, and hope they are able to find the problem. They tell me they have checked the wiring and nothing "obvious" was found.


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## Airboss (Jul 14, 2007)

I wish I could help. As far as the power settings go, my Prodigy came with a nifty little DVD that walked you through the set-up process. I found some information here about your controller. Hope that helps.


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## Rip (Jul 13, 2006)

I have the Valley Oddyssey and that is what my set has been for two years now!!!! To Maine and back last year no problems !!!!You have a short some where maybe in the wiring going through the axles from one side to the other


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

This type of on/off short is most likely due to a chaffed wire in the hub of one of your wheels. The internal casting is not really very clean except where the brakes work and so as the wheel spins the short comes and goes. The delay you see is the internal reset or reaction time, it sees the short and then when it clears it then sees it again.

A test for this is to apply the brakes manually to hold every thing from moving and from a stop release the brakes just enough to move, as the wheels rotate they will make and break the short connection. If you can reproduce the fault doing this then you need to jack up the trailer and spin each wheel by hand looking for the short. Then take the wheel apart to fix it. It sounds harder then it is.

There are other fault that could cause this but a short in the wheel is most likely.


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## LarryTheOutback (Jun 15, 2005)

Your problem sounds very familiar. It took the tech about an hour of driving up and down the dealer's driveway to reproduce and isolate the problem to one of the four magnets. He replaced it and voila! no more problem.

Ed


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## folsom_five (Jan 10, 2008)

Well, the dealer is now talking to Keystone about what is going on. Hopefully they (Keystone) will be able to shed some light on my situation.

Our 1st "real" camping trip is planned for this weekend, so I really hope they can get this figured out soon.









--Greg


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## Jeannie (Oct 26, 2006)

Hello and welcome









We had a problem with our brakes when our 2007 BHDS was new. The brake controller voltage was jumping, intermittantly showing a power failure and no connection. The problem was not in the brake controller. There were 2 problems with the camper. Loose ground wires in the junction box on the trailer frame and the brake wiring was getting pinched in the brake lever. The dealer re-routed the brake wiring and secured the ground wires. No problem since.

Try searching in the problems and solutions forum. There are some posts from other members who have had issues with their brakes.

Good luck.


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

Yeah, the dealer technician is full of it. The thing is only going to put 12v to the brakes at most, and the most that should do is lock them up. It's impossible to put "too much power" to the system. If you think about how the controller manual says to adjust them it will be pretty obvious.

It has nothing to do with your problem, but while we're on the topic of brakes I'll remind everyone to adjust them periodically. When I did mine after the first season they were way out of wack... one wheel was locking up and another wasn't braking at all.


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## nynethead (Sep 23, 2005)

I had the same intermittent problem on my Laredo, could be driving down the highway and the controller would display the SC, sometimes it would say nothing connected. I replaced the prodigy controller through warranty and still had the same result. Brought it to the dealer and they replace two brake magnets, now everything is great.


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## JohnL (Sep 2, 2004)

I had this problem too. The dealer found "nothing" wrong and suggested that I replace my controller. After I insisted that they take another look at the trailer they finally a found a wire that had been rubbed bare and was shorting out where the wire enters the axle to cross to the other side of the trailer. They replace the wire and all is good.


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## Chabbie1 (Dec 3, 2006)

Hey, FolsomFive, just noticed that we are almost neighbors! Where are you going this weekend and have you been to Sugarloaf Ridge State Park?
Chabbie1


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## folsom_five (Jan 10, 2008)

Chabbie1 said:


> Hey, FolsomFive, just noticed that we are almost neighbors! Where are you going this weekend and have you been to Sugarloaf Ridge State Park?
> Chabbie1


Hi Chabbie1.

IF we get our TT back from the dealer in time, we are going to New Brighton State Beach. It's just south of Santa Cruz in Capitola.

No update to the TT yet. Last I talked to them (this morning) they had just gotten approval from Keystone for 2 hours of labor to pull the drums and adjust the brakes.
Their latest explination is that the brakes seem to be out of adjustment, so the magnets are trying to pull too many amps to stop the TT.
All this electric brake stuff confuses me, but that really doesn't make sense to me.


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## LarryTheOutback (Jun 15, 2005)

folsom_five said:


> pull the drums and adjust the brakes.


While they are down there they should check the current draw on each magnet. That's how the dealer found our bad magnet.

Ed


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

folsom_five said:


> Hey, FolsomFive, just noticed that we are almost neighbors! Where are you going this weekend and have you been to Sugarloaf Ridge State Park?
> Chabbie1


Hi Chabbie1.

IF we get our TT back from the dealer in time, we are going to New Brighton State Beach. It's just south of Santa Cruz in Capitola.

No update to the TT yet. Last I talked to them (this morning) they had just gotten approval from Keystone for 2 hours of labor to pull the drums and adjust the brakes.
*Their latest explination is that the brakes seem to be out of adjustment, so the magnets are trying to pull too many amps to stop the TT.*
All this electric brake stuff confuses me, but that really doesn't make sense to me.
[/quote]

Well I will have to call BS on that explanation. Pulling the drums will allow them to find and correct the problem but they will need to inspect the wiring and the magnets. If all they do is adjust them then they wasted yours and their time. Also the procedure for adjusting the brakes does not require the drums to be removed. You may want to think about service at another dealer as the service writer is making things up when he is talking to you.


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

CamperAndy said:


> Well I will have to call BS on that explanation. Pulling the drums will allow them to find and correct the problem but they will need to inspect the wiring and the magnets. If all they do is adjust them then they wasted yours and their time. Also the procedure for adjusting the brakes does not require the drums to be removed. You may want to think about service at another dealer as the service writer is making things up when he is talking to you.


Yep, I agree on the BS call, just like I did on the earlier explanation. As I said, I've experienced brakes out of adjustment about as far as they could be, and the behavior is simply one wheel locking up before the other ones even engage. There's nothing abnormal per se about that condition that the brake controller would even see, it's just mechanically the system doesn't work as it should at the back end. And you adjust them by turning the star wheel through the slot in the drum, just like on your car, not by taking anything off.

SERIOUSLY, it's time to find another service option before they make matters worse.


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

folsom_five said:


> Their latest explination is that the brakes seem to be out of adjustment, so the magnets are trying to pull too many amps to stop the TT.[/b]


This implies that the mechanical part of the brake has some kind of brain and asks the controller for more amps because it realizes you need to stop before you go through the stop sign up ahead. Sounds kind of ridiculous stated that way, doesn't it.

First, the variable braking works by changing the VOLTAGE not the AMPERAGE, so somebody doesn't have the slightest clue what they're talking about.

Second, the mechanical part of the brakes (the part in the drum they're going to remove) is 100% reactive. The brakes engage according to the voltage supplied to them, not by how much they "pull".

The one single thing that will make the system "pull too many amps" is a SHORT - exactly what your controller is telling you is the problem.

RUN FOREST RUN!


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## folsom_five (Jan 10, 2008)

BoaterDan said:


> Well I will have to call BS on that explanation. Pulling the drums will allow them to find and correct the problem but they will need to inspect the wiring and the magnets. If all they do is adjust them then they wasted yours and their time. Also the procedure for adjusting the brakes does not require the drums to be removed. You may want to think about service at another dealer as the service writer is making things up when he is talking to you.


Yep, I agree on the BS call, just like I did on the earlier explanation. As I said, I've experienced brakes out of adjustment about as far as they could be, and the behavior is simply one wheel locking up before the other ones even engage. There's nothing abnormal per se about that condition that the brake controller would even see, it's just mechanically the system doesn't work as it should at the back end. And you adjust them by turning the star wheel through the slot in the drum, just like on your car, not by taking anything off.

SERIOUSLY, it's time to find another service option before they make matters worse.
[/quote]
BoaterDan & CamperAndy (and everyone else)- Thanks for your input. I agree that I seem to be getting some interesting "stories" out of them about what is going on with my brakes. The only person I have been talking to is the service writer, so I'm wondering how "technical" this guy really is.
After they took the drums off, they did find a "pinched" wire, but said that the insulation was intact so shouldn't be causing a short. They did go ahead and replace that section of wire, so hopefully that will resolve the problems.

They want me to go into the shop tomorrow for them to check the amperage coming out of the truck wiring. In addition, they want to ride along with me pulling my TT with my truck. Then they want me to pull on of their other TTs with my truck.

They seem to be trying to work through the problems (trying to figure this out), but I just don't like the "stories" that I am getting from them.

I will keep everyone updated at to what the problem turns out to be (...if they can find it)

--Greg


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## folsom_five (Jan 10, 2008)

Well I just returned from my dealer WITH my TT!







For now the SC problem seems to be 99% resolved.

Here is what they found/fixed, but not really sure what the cause of my problems were..
When they pulled the drums, they found a pinched wire. But when they stripped the insulation off of it, all wires were still intact. They went ahead and replaced that section of wiring.
Next, they found that the seals on both sides of the rear axle were blown! Not really sure how/why that occured. Anyways, they replaced the seals and they also replaced the backing plates on each side of the rear axle. Not sure if that was related to the blown seals or not









I will be taking the TT out on our 1st trip this weekend, pulling it up/down a pretty steep grade, so I really hope all of the braking issues are resolved!

Thanks to everyone that posted a response to my questions. I have really learned a lot by reading these posts and I hope I can help someone out in the future.

--Greg


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

folsom_five said:


> Well I just returned from my dealer WITH my TT!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


99%??!


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## battalionchief3 (Jun 27, 2006)

I always maintaing a 1% of doubt for everything....


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## folsom_five (Jan 10, 2008)

BoaterDan said:


> Well I just returned from my dealer WITH my TT!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


99%??!
[/quote]

I say 99% because when I use the manual lever on the brake controller, it will flash SC right around when the TT comes to a full stop. It will not happen every time, so I cannot explain why it's hapening (and neither can the dealer).

I will see how everything works on my trip this weekend.









--greg


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## Sierrab24r (Apr 2, 2006)

WELL... it started out to be a "quick" brake adjustment.







I don't believe I have EVER had such a hard time adjusting the star wheel on brakes. Anyone found a brake adjusting tool that worked well? - I ended up bending an old screwdriver and using it, as none of my brake adjusting spoons seemed to work. As is my custom, I apply the brakes to center the brake shoes in the drum. This prevents one shoe from dragging, making you think that the brake shoe to drum clearance is less than it really is. In the process of "centering the shoes" I discovered that I didn't have braking to the right rear wheel. I then jacked the left side and discovered that I didn't have braking to the left rear wheel. So NO braking to the back axle at all.

Naturally I came right to Outbackers to see if anyone else had experienced this problem before and what possible fixes might be. I got a wealth of information from the various brake problem threads and finally tracked the problem to a broken splice to ground in the left side of the belly, just forward of the axle. The wires coming back were spliced to about a six-inch pieces of wire that were poked through the belly covering and then these six-inch pieces of wire were spliced to the pigtails coming out of the brake backing plate. Three splices in less than a foot!! I suspect that the wire may have been pulled out of the splice last year when a tire blew out in that position.

At any rate, it's all back together now and I have enclosed the previously exposed wires in plastic wiring loom (available at any auto parts store). I also found a bad ground in the junction box at the front of the trailer (although it was not related to the brake problem) when I opened it up to get to the trailer plug wiring to start troubleshooting.

I just wanted to add my thanks to those that had posted their problems and add my input in case someone has experienced the same thing I did.

As usual, Outbackers rocks!! This is WAY better than having to go to the dealer and if you DO have to go to the dealer, you go well-informed.


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

"I am thinking that regardless of the number of axles I have, and regardless of the power setting my controller is set at, I should not get a "SC" condition. they are saying I am putting too much power through the wires and that is what is causing this condition.

What do others on this site think??

--Greg"

Your shop doesn't have a clue. That's scary. I guess the drama is over for now. What I have experienced is chafed wires inside the axle tube that let the current go to ground - partially -

Don't feel bad. It took the manufacturer about seven clock hours to figure it out, and then it was because I suggested - nothing else being left that hadn't been replaced - that the wiring in the axle be abandoned in place and replaced by exterior wiring. They initially denied that could be the problem, but I pointed out that it would cost next to nothing to try. Guess what...

Sluggo


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## LarryTheOutback (Jun 15, 2005)

Sierrab24r said:


> So NO braking to the back axle at all ... tracked the problem to a broken splice to ground in the left side of the belly, just forward of the axle.


I'm sure glad you found the problem.

We've had brake problems two times. Once it was a bad magnet, once it was a cut brake wire. Since then I've adopted the following procedure: _Every morning on a trip we have one of the kids turn on the brakes full (by using the lever on the brake controller). The driver then goes back to the trailer and verifies the brakes are humming on each of the four wheels. (No comments on what tune they are humming, please). _ This procedure gives us some peace-of-mind that the brakes are at least getting power. It might not have helped in your particular situation, but I think it's a good technique to keep an eye on your brakes. The other lesson learned: when the brake controller complains, it's usually right and the dealer is usually wrong.
Ed


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## ARzark (Aug 9, 2005)

Guess it's my turn for the brake challenges. On the way out this week we experienced the SH, NC and OL trouble codes on the prodigy. It was intermittent so sometimes the brakes worked, sometimes not.
Thanks to all the good info on here I know what to look for! Looked at what I could here at the campground and didn't see anything visible where a wire was shorting, chaffed or pinched otherwise.

After what will be a nervous trip home this afternoon I'll pull the drums and see if I can't find the problem. 
Good info gang, thanks!


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## LarryTheOutback (Jun 15, 2005)

ARzark said:


> I'll pull the drums and see if I can't find the problem.


I'd take another close look at those wires that go through the axle. You might even consider replacing them prophylactically; it's pretty easy. Also look for pinch points with the suspension; you might not directly see a problem with the trailer standing still.

When you apply the manual brake lever do you hear all four brakes humming?

Ed


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## ARzark (Aug 9, 2005)

LarryTheOutback said:


> I'll pull the drums and see if I can't find the problem.


I'd take another close look at those wires that go through the axle. You might even consider replacing them prophylactically; it's pretty easy. Also look for pinch points with the suspension; you might not directly see a problem with the trailer standing still.

When you apply the manual brake lever do you hear all four brakes humming?

Ed
[/quote]

Hi Ed,

When the trailer is at a stand still everything shows normal and all 4 wheels hum when the brakes are manually applied.
I am experiencing the problem while the trailer is in motion. The Prodigy will start to show voltage when in motion and the brakes are applied, 
then quickly flashes OL for overload, or SH for short. I suspect that may be a pinched wire somewhere.

I assume that by hearing all wheels hum that it probably is not a magnet problem? 
Jeff


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