# Here We Go, Cracked Frame On 2010 Outback 5'er??



## therink (May 13, 2010)

A while ago, I posted this thread regarding poor looking pin box welds on my 2010 Outback Sydney 329 fbh 5'er: http://www.outbackers.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=31333&view=&hl=pin%20box%20welds&fromsearch=1

About 6 weeks ago, I took the trailer into Cam***g Wo**d to fix a couple minor warranty things (nothing major). While it was there, I asked them to inspect the pin box welds and listen to the creaking an crackling sounds that come from the upper bedroom (chin) area while lowering the trailer onto the tow vehicle. The service writer and called me and said the pin box welds looked normal (see my old post for photos). I asked the service guy if they had a "certified" welder inspect the welds and he said "we don't have a certified welder". I then said "How can you say the welds are good if you don't have a certified welder?" He paused and then said he would have someone else look at the frame. Well 3 weeks went by and they finally looked at it again and again told me the welds looked ok. I also asked is they lowered the trailer on a truck and listened to the noises, he said they did and all was normal. I then asked him to "put in writing that the frame was inspected and all was normal". He then proceeded to tell me that they would again have someone else look at the trailer. Well, two weeks later he called and told me he is going to open up the front underside chin area and get a better look (after he gets authorization from Keystone). All I can say is "Here we go". Personally, I think there is an issue withe the frame. The pin box welds look like crap (It looks like I welded them, and I have never welded before). The welds there appear to be intact, but are corroded and have lots of pits and such. Between the poor looking visible pin box welds and the noises coming from inside the walls, I think that there is an internal frame issue. The pin box does flex maybe a good half inch or so when lowering onto my truck. Maybe I got a bad frame,maybe it is OK, who knows?
I am looking for some advice on how I should go about handling this:
1) should I be onsite at the dealer when they do finally open up the front so I can inspect the frame/welds my self?
2) If the frame is defective, should I insist that the trailer be replaced altogether?
3) Should the trailer be sent back to Keystone for repairs?

Please keep in mind that the trailer was purchased new in March 2010 from the dealer that has my trailer now, so it is still under warranty.There should be no question about being covered. We love the trailer and have had no other issues to speak of (other than the normal small stuff). I have kept a cool head so far and plan on maintaining this attitude. I am not looking for Lippert or Keystone bashing in the feedback. Just genuine advice from those who may have had a similar issue with their frame.


----------



## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Keystone did not make the frame nor do they do any welding on it so the warranty would go back to the frame manufacture. If there is an issues noted on the inspection Keystone may or may not try to do anything but you should at least get referred to the frame manufacture to get satisfaction.

Good luck but don't expect to be present during the inspection. They may ask if you are a certified welder and you know where that will go.


----------



## maddog (Dec 16, 2009)

I have the same model as you do. Mine makes all kinda noise too when hooking up. But I don't think my pin box is flexing. My dealer "Holman RV" also said this is normal. I looked at my dad's 2002 Montana fifth wheel also has a lippert frame and his does this as well. He isn't too concerned either. He said it has done this since day 1.


----------



## therink (May 13, 2010)

maddog said:


> I have the same model as you do. Mine makes all kinda noise too when hooking up. But I don't think my pin box is flexing. My dealer "Holman RV" also said this is normal. I looked at my dad's 2002 Montana fifth wheel also has a lippert frame and his does this as well. He isn't too concerned either. He said it has done this since day 1.


I was thinking that these noises may be normal, but based on the crappy welds on my pin box, I dont want to take any chances while I still have a warranty. If the welds on the rest of the frame are like the pin box welds, there could be issues. Camping world said they dont like the noises they are hearing, and recommend looking into it further. I am all for that. At least if I have problems down the road, I will have documentation.

How do you like your 329fbh? We love ours, layout is perfect for us and for the most part is well put together. Unfortunately mine is an early 2010 model and didnt come with the 16" wheels and ez flex suspension. They changed over from 15" mid year.


----------



## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

I've heard plenty of creaking between my Dad's and my previous 5'er. I think a lot of them do that. Good luck with the inspection. It's a tough deal, because it sounds like you're convinced the welds are bad, but without personal welding experience, are you prepared to trust a welder?


----------



## maddog (Dec 16, 2009)

therink said:


> I have the same model as you do. Mine makes all kinda noise too when hooking up. But I don't think my pin box is flexing. My dealer "Holman RV" also said this is normal. I looked at my dad's 2002 Montana fifth wheel also has a lippert frame and his does this as well. He isn't too concerned either. He said it has done this since day 1.


I was thinking that these noises may be normal, but based on the crappy welds on my pin box, I dont want to take any chances while I still have a warranty. If the welds on the rest of the frame are like the pin box welds, there could be issues. Camping world said they dont like the noises they are hearing, and recommend looking into it further. I am all for that. At least if I have problems down the road, I will have documentation.

How do you like your 329fbh? We love ours, layout is perfect for us and for the most part is well put together. Unfortunately mine is an early 2010 model and didnt come with the 16" wheels and ez flex suspension. They changed over from 15" mid year.
[/quote]
Mine is the same is yours, early build. Bought in September 2009. We love it and like you have had our problems but getting worked out, most recent the seams on the furniture are separating on all pieces keystone is replacing all furniture. The floorplan was the key selling point on ours. Love the front bedroom for the kids.


----------



## OutbackPM (Sep 14, 2005)

therink said:


> A while ago, I posted this thread regarding poor looking pin box welds on my 2010 Outback Sydney 329 fbh 5'er: http://www.outbackers.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=31333&view=&hl=pin%20box%20welds&fromsearch=1
> 
> The pin box does flex maybe a good half inch or so when lowering onto my truck. Maybe I got a bad frame,maybe it is OK, who knows?
> I am looking for some advice on how I should go about handling this:


 A 1/2 inch deflection of the frame and not moevement of the truck as it is loaded sounds on the large side to me. Mine does not move any visual amount when I load up. I know my pin weight is in the 1800 lb range and I think I have a Lipert frame as well. From what others have said it could be a normal thing for this camper but I think you are doing the right thing and taking a good look. A bad weld won't flex any more then a good weld until it is broken then you'll get the extra movement. If you have a hidden weld that has been overloaded and broken that is a possibilty that you could find when you take a closer look. If you do find a broken weld then that makes all the others done at the same time suspect so make sure they have a plan for that (not just the broken one) if you find something.

Good luck


----------



## therink (May 13, 2010)

maddog said:


> I have the same model as you do. Mine makes all kinda noise too when hooking up. But I don't think my pin box is flexing. My dealer "Holman RV" also said this is normal. I looked at my dad's 2002 Montana fifth wheel also has a lippert frame and his does this as well. He isn't too concerned either. He said it has done this since day 1.


I was thinking that these noises may be normal, but based on the crappy welds on my pin box, I dont want to take any chances while I still have a warranty. If the welds on the rest of the frame are like the pin box welds, there could be issues. Camping world said they dont like the noises they are hearing, and recommend looking into it further. I am all for that. At least if I have problems down the road, I will have documentation.

How do you like your 329fbh? We love ours, layout is perfect for us and for the most part is well put together. Unfortunately mine is an early 2010 model and didnt come with the 16" wheels and ez flex suspension. They changed over from 15" mid year.
[/quote]
Mine is the same is yours, early build. Bought in September 2009. We love it and like you have had our problems but getting worked out, most recent the seams on the furniture are separating on all pieces keystone is replacing all furniture. The floorplan was the key selling point on ours. Love the front bedroom for the kids.
[/quote]

Maddog
I had a few problems with loose interior trim, a few water lines that needed securing (to quiet them down), but no problem yet with the furniture seams. These small things I fixed myself. The biggest problem I had was a soft spot in the kitchen floor around the heat vent. Using a mirror in the vent, I found that the crafty Keystone carpenters over cut the vent opening in the floor by at least two inches on two of the cuts causing this unsupported are of the sub floor to flex. I repaired it my self by lifting the linoleum around the vent and screwing 1/2" L-shaped plywood bracing onto the underside of the vent opening corners. I probably did a better job than dealer would have done. The other issue I haven't addressed yet is the lack of heat in front bedroom/bath (an obvious design flaw). I have read that replacing the 4" flex duct with rigid 6" duct will do the trick. This is a repair I would rather do myself (cause I want it done right), but haven't gotten around to it yet. This is our fifth trailer owned. We spent about 40 nights in it this summer and have to say we love it and will never go back to a TT. Also tows like a dream. I plan on upgrading from the D rated tires, hopefully before one of them blows (they are awful soft for the weight on them). Fully loaded, I weighed the trailer in at 11,800.
Steve


----------



## maddog (Dec 16, 2009)

therink said:


> I have the same model as you do. Mine makes all kinda noise too when hooking up. But I don't think my pin box is flexing. My dealer "Holman RV" also said this is normal. I looked at my dad's 2002 Montana fifth wheel also has a lippert frame and his does this as well. He isn't too concerned either. He said it has done this since day 1.


I was thinking that these noises may be normal, but based on the crappy welds on my pin box, I dont want to take any chances while I still have a warranty. If the welds on the rest of the frame are like the pin box welds, there could be issues. Camping world said they dont like the noises they are hearing, and recommend looking into it further. I am all for that. At least if I have problems down the road, I will have documentation.

How do you like your 329fbh? We love ours, layout is perfect for us and for the most part is well put together. Unfortunately mine is an early 2010 model and didnt come with the 16" wheels and ez flex suspension. They changed over from 15" mid year.
[/quote]
Mine is the same is yours, early build. Bought in September 2009. We love it and like you have had our problems but getting worked out, most recent the seams on the furniture are separating on all pieces keystone is replacing all furniture. The floorplan was the key selling point on ours. Love the front bedroom for the kids.
[/quote]

Maddog
I had a few problems with loose interior trim, a few water lines that needed securing (to quiet them down), but no problem yet with the furniture seams. These small things I fixed myself. The biggest problem I had was a soft spot in the kitchen floor around the heat vent. Using a mirror in the vent, I found that the crafty Keystone carpenters over cut the vent opening in the floor by at least two inches on two of the cuts causing this unsupported are of the sub floor to flex. I repaired it my self by lifting the linoleum around the vent and screwing 1/2" L-shaped plywood bracing onto the underside of the vent opening corners. I probably did a better job than dealer would have done. The other issue I haven't addressed yet is the lack of heat in front bedroom/bath (an obvious design flaw). I have read that replacing the 4" flex duct with rigid 6" duct will do the trick. This is a repair I would rather do myself (cause I want it done right), but haven't gotten around to it yet. This is our fifth trailer owned. We spent about 40 nights in it this summer and have to say we love it and will never go back to a TT. Also tows like a dream. I plan on upgrading from the D rated tires, hopefully before one of them blows (they are awful soft for the weight on them). Fully loaded, I weighed the trailer in at 11,800.
Steve
[/quote]
Like you I had the heat problem. The dealer did install the six inch flex tube I also had to replace all the floor vents with adjustable vents. It made a big difference but still use a space heater up front. I also have the soft spot on the floor I'ld like to see how you fixed it.


----------



## Duanesz (Jul 10, 2009)

My mom and dad have a bighorn with a lippert frame. The started having cracking on the front of there 5er. The crack formed right under the slide for the bedroom up front. It also started to pucker under and around the front storage door. When you would lower the trailer down on the truck the crack under the slide would get bigger so you could see it flexing.

After lots of talk back and forth they agreed to fix it it was 2 years old. They took the whole front off the trailer and welded supports in the pin box area to stiffen it up. They stood behind there camper but it took being persistent and lots of calls to the factory with pictures.


----------



## therink (May 13, 2010)

maddog said:


> I have the same model as you do. Mine makes all kinda noise too when hooking up. But I don't think my pin box is flexing. My dealer "Holman RV" also said this is normal. I looked at my dad's 2002 Montana fifth wheel also has a lippert frame and his does this as well. He isn't too concerned either. He said it has done this since day 1.


I was thinking that these noises may be normal, but based on the crappy welds on my pin box, I dont want to take any chances while I still have a warranty. If the welds on the rest of the frame are like the pin box welds, there could be issues. Camping world said they dont like the noises they are hearing, and recommend looking into it further. I am all for that. At least if I have problems down the road, I will have documentation.

How do you like your 329fbh? We love ours, layout is perfect for us and for the most part is well put together. Unfortunately mine is an early 2010 model and didnt come with the 16" wheels and ez flex suspension. They changed over from 15" mid year.
[/quote]
Mine is the same is yours, early build. Bought in September 2009. We love it and like you have had our problems but getting worked out, most recent the seams on the furniture are separating on all pieces keystone is replacing all furniture. The floorplan was the key selling point on ours. Love the front bedroom for the kids.
[/quote]

Maddog
I had a few problems with loose interior trim, a few water lines that needed securing (to quiet them down), but no problem yet with the furniture seams. These small things I fixed myself. The biggest problem I had was a soft spot in the kitchen floor around the heat vent. Using a mirror in the vent, I found that the crafty Keystone carpenters over cut the vent opening in the floor by at least two inches on two of the cuts causing this unsupported are of the sub floor to flex. I repaired it my self by lifting the linoleum around the vent and screwing 1/2" L-shaped plywood bracing onto the underside of the vent opening corners. I probably did a better job than dealer would have done. The other issue I haven't addressed yet is the lack of heat in front bedroom/bath (an obvious design flaw). I have read that replacing the 4" flex duct with rigid 6" duct will do the trick. This is a repair I would rather do myself (cause I want it done right), but haven't gotten around to it yet. This is our fifth trailer owned. We spent about 40 nights in it this summer and have to say we love it and will never go back to a TT. Also tows like a dream. I plan on upgrading from the D rated tires, hopefully before one of them blows (they are awful soft for the weight on them). Fully loaded, I weighed the trailer in at 11,800.
Steve
[/quote]
Like you I had the heat problem. The dealer did install the six inch flex tube I also had to replace all the floor vents with adjustable vents. It made a big difference but still use a space heater up front. I also have the soft spot on the floor I'ld like to see how you fixed it.
[/quote]
Maddog,
When I get a chance, I will message you photos I took when making the floor repair and describe how I did it. In the mean time remove your heat vent, get a small hand held mirror and a flashlight and take a peak at the underside of the subfloor at the vent opening corners. You may see where they overextended the cuts. My guess is that they generally use a hand held circular saw to make the rectangular floor openings because it is quicker, hence causing over cuts. Hopefully this makes sense. Better yet, you see my post here: http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=898
Steve


----------



## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

The creaks and cracking noise is normal. If you have flex or deflection when raising the jacks you have trouble. I picked up a heartland landmark in Coos Bay that had 1 and 1/2 inches of flex. Lippert called it back to the factory. The pin box was ok, the uprights from the lower frame had cracked and the supports were cracked also. The dealer refused to repair it because the rv would need some major deconstruction. Lippert wouldnt pay the required hours to the dealer for the repair. Instead they paid to have it shipped 2400 miles out and back. The skin had cracked too and heartland attempted to cover them by moving the decals over them. All new heartlands have a split and a piece of moulding below the bedroom slide so they no longer have the cracking issue at the corner below the slide.

Anyway, after the repair, it done it again on the next tow. Needless to say heartland gave him a new trailer plus gave him 10k for his trouble.

Thor/Keystone just bought the controling interest in heartland so I bet that never happens again. Keystone doesnt buy back trailers.

Stick to your guns. Put a tape measure at the turn from the pin area at the upright. If any movement is seen, look at the uprights and supports. If any are flexing or moving, inspect deeper for cracks. Look closely for cracks in the skin too.

I hauled rvs for 3 years. Lippert goes thru swings of bad frames and welds. Hopefully yours isnt in the wrong time. Lippert supplies all frames for rvs built in indiana and oregon. It doesnt matter who made the body, the frame is lippert in 90% of all rvs. I seen fewer problems with the lightweights such as yours. The heavy body units had many more failures cause I was the guy who hauled em back to the factory. They were all in the 13-14k and 38-40 foot range.

The problem is they hire workers that arent certified welders and also hire many from a far away place south of the US border. Irates me too!

Carey


----------



## Robk11 (Feb 10, 2017)

therink said:


> A while ago, I posted this thread regarding poor looking pin box welds on my 2010 Outback Sydney 329 fbh 5'er: http://www.outbackers.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=31333&view=&hl=pin%20box%20welds&fromsearch=1
> 
> About 6 weeks ago, I took the trailer into Cam***g Wo**d to fix a couple minor warranty things (nothing major). While it was there, I asked them to inspect the pin box welds and listen to the creaking an crackling sounds that come from the upper bedroom (chin) area while lowering the trailer onto the tow vehicle. The service writer and called me and said the pin box welds looked normal (see my old post for photos). I asked the service guy if they had a "certified" welder inspect the welds and he said "we don't have a certified welder". I then said "How can you say the welds are good if you don't have a certified welder?" He paused and then said he would have someone else look at the frame. Well 3 weeks went by and they finally looked at it again and again told me the welds looked ok. I also asked is they lowered the trailer on a truck and listened to the noises, he said they did and all was normal. I then asked him to "put in writing that the frame was inspected and all was normal". He then proceeded to tell me that they would again have someone else look at the trailer. Well, two weeks later he called and told me he is going to open up the front underside chin area and get a better look (after he gets authorization from Keystone). All I can say is "Here we go". Personally, I think there is an issue withe the frame. The pin box welds look like crap (It looks like I welded them, and I have never welded before). The welds there appear to be intact, but are corroded and have lots of pits and such. Between the poor looking visible pin box welds and the noises coming from inside the walls, I think that there is an internal frame issue. The pin box does flex maybe a good half inch or so when lowering onto my truck. Maybe I got a bad frame,maybe it is OK, who knows?
> I am looking for some advice on how I should go about handling this:
> ...


Any word I have a 2010 28' flexing about 1" on the pin box front end. Affects front floor. Any boy find the cause and is there a fix. Keystone is of no help .


----------



## Robk11 (Feb 10, 2017)

Any word I have a 2010 28' flexing about 1" on the pin box front end. Affects front floor. Any body find the cause and is there a fix. Keystone is of no help .


----------



## Robk11 (Feb 10, 2017)

Update to pin box flexing . I have removed the lower cover and discovered a very unskilled person tried to reinforce the pin box wells which had been broken. The from cross member 2" X 5" thin wall tubing. The member is torn in half and just hanging by the rear welds. I am a manufacturing engineer by traded . Who ever thought this was safe and durable must need to go back to school. If you are seeing frame flex PLEASE have some one qualified look at it before the pin box breakes away from the trailer and injures someone. I will post pictures as soon as I remove the nose cap. Anybody have a set of construction prints for a 2010 outback 28' fifth wheel???


----------

