# Towing



## jamahosky (Dec 20, 2008)

After reading some post on the site, I am questioning my vehicle and the Outback we bought. We have a 2008, V8 Toyota Sequoia with the tow package and the transmission cooler. Per the book it states we can tow 9600lbs. Our Outback is the 310BHS. The Outback dealer said I should be fine, but want to be safe. I am not to good with the technical type stuff when it comes to vehicles.

Thanks


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## shaela21 (Aug 16, 2005)

There are a couple numbers that you want to look at to determine if you have a safe towing combination. Your truck has a set tow rating. This number does not take into account passengers and gear that you will have in the vehicle. So, take your tow rating and subtract these weights. Now you will have your true tow rating.
Second is the trailer. On the side of the trailer you will find a label with some numbers, one of which is a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR). This is the maximum weight that your trailer can weight, fully loaded up. The dry weight of the trailer is a number used to calculate this GVWR and shod not be used to determine if you can tow this trailer. Now, ideally your truck tow rating will be above this GVWR. It is an unwritten rule that it should be about 20% higher (commonly called the 80% rule, I just go the other way). There is another number called the Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating (GCVWR) and this number is somewhere with your vehicle, and this is the maximum that your truck and trailer can weight together.

So once you find all these numbers and write them down you will be able to determine if you can safely tow this trailer. There are different tow weight calculators out there, and they are good, but it can be difficult to find all the numbers required to make the calculation work. But if you find the tow rating of the truck, and if it is above the GVWR of the trailer, then you are fine. Some people make an allowance if the GVWR is about the tow rating by saying that the trailer will never be loaded up to the GVWR, and away they go. If they are willing to take that risk, so be it.

One final point. RV salesmen are not liable for the trailers they sell. Once it is off the lot, they wash their hands of it. And if you get in an accident and die, they are not that concerned as they already have their money. I had a salesman tell me I could tow a 18 foot trailer with my minivan. The dry weight (again, not to be used) was 3200 pounds, and my minivan can tow 3500 pounds, so he thought that was okay. You are one towing, not them. Be safe.


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

First of off, Welcome to the Site!!!









Ok, now to address the question:
Ahh, yes, the "You're fine to tow that" statement from the dealer.









Ok, there are a couple things to consider when looking at tow vehicles:

1. Weight
2. Length

Let's start with #1. The trailer loaded up for a big trip will likely be right near it's GVWR. So, let's take it easy and estimate the weight at 10,000 lbs. Oopps, I guess we're over already







. Ok, I'll be generous and assume you are packing lightly, so let's assume 9600 lbs. The tounge weight will be 10-15% of the trailer weight, so let's put it at 12.5%, or 1200 lbs.

Now, your truck may state a max tow rating, but more important is it's dry weight(acutal empty weight), GVWR(gross vehicle weight rating) and GCWR(gross combined weight rating). These are probably on a placard inside your door.

So, you need to make sure the dry weight of the truck plus the weight of all passengers, plus the weight of all gear, plus the tounge weight of the trailer stays below the GVWR of the truck. Then you need to make sure the weight of the truck, plus passengers, plus gear, plus the total trailer wieght stays below the GCWR.

So, if we trust the numbers from Edmunds (I wouldn't, but it's the only data I have for the Sequoia):
Dry weight: 6030 lbs
GVWR: 7300 lbs
Tounge weight: 1200 lbs
This means that anything in the vehicle (other than the 150lb assumed driver







) must weigh less than 70 lbs.

Now, I'd guess the GCWR is around 15650-15700
This again would support only 20-70 lbs of capacity in the vehicle.

In short, unfortunately you will be over weight unless your trailer and truck is completely empty.

Now, you probably don't want to go onto #2, but let me continue. You will need very good sway control for a trailer that large. I formerly owned a 28RSDS (~31') and tried towing with a F150. The length was really too long for the truck and a strong wind gust could push me out of my lane easily. (The solution was an upgrade to a 1 ton truck and that fixed the problem) You are looking at a ~36' TT with a shorter wheelbase than what I had, so I would be VERY hesitant to try this combo.

As you read the threads here, you will likely see many people who have purchased on the salesman's reccomendation and then ended up upgrading to get a more comfortable (read safer) towing experience. You're not the only one to run into this and in fact there was just a thread complaining about this problem with 1/2 ton pick-up trucks. My recommendation would be to upgrade to either a 2500lb Suburban, or a 3/4 or 1 ton pickup truck. They will greatly improve both the safety of your family and the durability of your tow vehicle.


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

First off...that is one very nice Outback you have and I am positive your family will enjoy it for YEARS to come.

The stated info on that Outback is:

Dry Weight 7,941

Now, of course Keystone wants to make this number as small as possible, so a LOT of items are not included and are listed at "options". Yet all this "options" come standard on every Outback. (makes you say "UH?")

All this stuff (like awning, full propane tanks, stove, AC unit, battery, etc..) will quickly add another 500lbs to the real weight of Outback.

That model also has a 50 gallon water holding tank. I prefer to fill my tank at home so I have MY water...not some unknown water from who knows where. Going with a round number of 8lbs per gallon of water, you have the potential to add another 400lbs in water alone.

Adding the water and the "optional" items to the weight of the Outback and you're now close to 9,000lbs. Using the 80% rule, you are now way over your "safe" towing limit (9600 x 80% = 7,680lbs) and we haven't even added any personal items, clothes, food and of course BEER!

If you can find a scale (a lot of times along freeways...go on weekend) to get the real weight of the trailer it would be very helpful. TELL the dealer (don't ask) that you want to test drive the trailer and then take it to a local scale. You might have to borrow a truck that already has a hitching system installed. Then unhook the trailer on the scales and get the weight and do some quick math to determine your real towing ability.

Someone on this forum once said you can actually "tow" an Outback with an riding lawn mower...it is about stopping and controlling the trailer during unforeseen events that really test the limit of your tow vehicle.

We all want everyone to be happy with their new trailer, but unfortunately, the RV salesman didn't really tell you the entire truth on your trucks towing ability.

Nobody wants another truck payment, but it only takes one small thing to set the trailer in motion at 65mph and without the right truck things can turn bad in an instant. We simply want you and your family to be safe and get to/from the campground with no problems.


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## Scoutr2 (Aug 21, 2006)

Welcome to Outbackers. That is one nice trailer! And a nice ride, too! But that doesn't answer your question, so here goes . . .

Well - where to begin?

First off - you have a 35' trailer. Your TV's wheelbase (according to Toyota's website) is 122". Based on established recommendations, that vehicle should not pull a trailer over 23'. This affects handling - the "tail wagging the dog" aspect, if you will.

Second - Your GVWR on the Toyota is 7000#. That's how much your vehicle's suspension is rated to carry (weight bearing on the axles). The curb weight of the Sequoia is 5680#. So you have 1320# to spare. Add bodies, gear, and trailer tongue weight, and you may be over that safety margin.

Third - again, according to Toyota's website, the towing capacity of your Sequoia is 7800#. Your 310BHS dry weight is 7941#. That does not include battery(s), propane tanks, awning, hitch and hardware, etc. Then add your gear in the trailer (which is rated to carry another 2059# - per Keystone's website) and you are well over the Sequoia's ratings. That does not include water in the fresh tank - 57 gallons (50 gal tank + lines + 6 gal in HW heater) which can weigh another 456#. You can do the math. (The 9600# towing capacity doesn't show up on Toyota's website, but even so - you are still on shaky ground.)

In short - I think you will be way beyond your safety ratings in handling ability and towing capacity, and you will be at or just over your TV's carrying capacity.

This is just my opinion, but I feel that your Sequoia will struggle to pull that trailer - not even considering your safety. And the Tranny will most likely suffer an early failure. But you can read all about it here: David's RV Tips (formerly RV Towing Tips). I found this long ago and it is still pinned at the top of this topic.

Sounds like you got the typical line from an RV salesman, "Oh, your truck will tow most anything we have on our lot!" I found that my 2003 Chevy Suburban, with 5.7L, 3:73 rear axle ratio, and towing package, struggled mightily with our 29BHS, which is significantly lighter and five feet shorter.

I'm sure that someone here will disagree with me, but I also think most will agree. I am not trying to stir controversy, but giving you an honest opinion, based on good information and experience. Sorry if I told you what you didn't want to hear. One thing I think most here will admit - we've all "been there - done that - earned the merit badge."

Mike


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## Scooter (May 9, 2005)

I'll add to the discussion regarding trailer length.

Here is a good read http://www.davidsrvtips.blogspot.com/
There is a section entitled "How Long?" worth a read.


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## sydmeg1012 (Nov 10, 2008)

I own a 310BHS and can say that I would not want to pull it with anything less than a 3/4 ton. As stated earlier, your wheelbase presents an immediate issue given the trailer's length (over 36' hitch to bumper), and the weights just don't add up to a pleasurable or safe towing experience. You've made a great choice in a TT







, now I think you need to be just as wise in your choice of TV. You won't be sorry you did. BTW congratulations and welcome to the Outbackers!


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## mmblantz (Jul 1, 2007)

I'm with the others. I had a half to with a 29ft Outback and was getting pushed around. Upgrader to a 3/4 ton and have not had that problem since. Get at least a 3/4 ton even if all you can afford is something a little older. --Mike


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## clarkely (Sep 15, 2008)

1. Welcome to Outbackers!!!
2. Great Trailer
3. Never believe a Trailer Salesman
4. Great Trailer
5. Nice Vehicle
6. Welcome to Outbackers!!!!

Okay........I will comment...........Its a lot of trailer I have one as well. Some may say to much.............i have pulled some sort of trailer since i was 16...........starting with 20 foot car trailers.

What i can tell you........
I am Maxed on my set up with my 2500 Suburban......in some instances......maybe even over the published numbers............many are and have been of the opinion (over the years) that the suburban is underated in its towing numbers........really doesn't matter...........I am comfortable towing & with my set up.
*
My Insight*
According to the Toyota website depending on what model you have.........there is a wide array of towing capacity......a 2wd sr5 they have rated at 10000 lbs and as low as 7800 lbs in a 4wd platinum.......there is enough power and torque.......and even rear gear ratio...........they only allow 1300 +/- lbs for payload...........compared to 2500 +/- lbs in a suburban............which kind of tells me they are trying to "Fluff" they're towing capacity numbers............They never give a Combined weight rating...........
*
TV Issues* (In no particular order)
1. Is the Hitch rated and can you put on a heavy enough rated receiver??? A lot of tongue weight
2. Wheel base.........to short IMO - inches matter in wheelbase to trailer length
3. Independent rear suspension - great ride...........not necessarily a good firm suspension for towing/ controlling/limiting sway
4. If i think of more I will add here....









I would not want to pull it with less than what i have.........

Unfortunately I would say you need a bigger TV.............if the trailer was shorter and near the same weight...............i would say you could but are pushing it..............

It is a long Trailer...............and i would be more concerned about the size than the weight.........

Key is pulling safely.........you have enough torque to pull the weight...........but again a lot of trailer..........If they made an Excursion with a big diesel......I would be in it...........largest i could find new for my family of 6 is the Suburban

Great trailer!! Let us know how you make out with whatever you decide on with the TV........I do not know much about the Sequoia as far as pulling............a friend has the 6cyl and a pop up......it rides nice......but i knew they had an 8cyl.........didn't know much about them until your post.................learn something everyday


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## jamahosky (Dec 20, 2008)

Here is more info, I have the SR5, 4WD, V8 5.7L with the tow package.
Here are the specs per Toyota and my manual.

CAPACITIES

Weight and Capacities: 
Curb weight (lb.) 6030 
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating - GVWR (lb.) 7300 
Gross Combined Weight Rating - GCWR (lb.) 17280 
Towing capacity [3] (lb.) (with Tow Package) 9600

Thanks for everyones input.


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

jamahosky said:


> Here is more info, I have the SR5, 4WD, V8 5.7L with the tow package.
> Here are the specs per Toyota and my manual.
> 
> CAPACITIES
> ...


So....what are you going to do?


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## clarkely (Sep 15, 2008)

jamahosky said:


> Here is more info, I have the SR5, 4WD, V8 5.7L with the tow package.
> Here are the specs per Toyota and my manual.
> 
> CAPACITIES
> ...


In looking at the specs i had found on torque & HP, there is enough power there...........You need to check the Receiver Tongue weight rating. 
It is a lot of trailer for the wheelbase.............my 130" isn't really enough, i really need a crew cab, long bed.....but with 6 of us......the suburban fitted our needs better.........Plus i love suburbans.......3rd one









Good Luck in your info processing and in your decision. I know it aint easy......as i was going through all of this before getting my 3/4 ton suburban and deciding if it was enough for the 310.

Clarke


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## Calvin&Hobbes (May 24, 2006)

I wish there was a way we (as consumers) can hold dealerships responsible for making claims like that. Maybe make them pay the difference between the truck you now have, to upgrade to the new truck that can actually haul the trailer. I'd bet that would stop them from saying "you should be fine"...


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## 1jeep (Jul 24, 2007)

Welcome to the forum, i will say this is in my opinion one of the best rv forums out there. I wouldnt post this on other forums because all the tundra bashers would be out, here most people are open minded, so here is my story, i hope it helps your decision.

Yes, your sequoia will tow it. However as others have said you are going to be very short on payload and that short wheelbase is going to make windy days a white knuckle dirve. This is an assumption on my part that you have the 5.7 engine? 
If you havent bought the trailer yet i would back away and think about this as you will be looking for a bigger truck in your future if you got forward. 
When we bought our outback we were told it was only 7k lbs and would be no problem also. After moving all our items from the old trailer to the new i stopped at a gravel yard and weighed it, 8240lbs and 32' long, slightly more than we were told, but still within the tundra's tow limits. The down part is after dropping the 900lb tongue weight on it leaves me with 640lbs per the listed cargo rating. sounds ok, but its not! i can never travel with anything in my tanks, i pack light and try not to put anything in the bed of my truck. There is one time a year that i take my motorcycle with and here is where i stress the tundra, 800lb motorcycle and 900lb tongue....i am over and havent left the driveway.

I am sure since i have an 8' bed, extra wheelbase over the sequoia, helps me and with the reese dual cam i have minimal sway.

I have added LT rated tires, sway bar, air bags, these are all band aids until i can pay down my truck enough to get into a 3/4 or 1 ton which should be within the year.

My advice is that you are looking at an even bigger trailer than i have with a smaller tow vehicle....dont do it! 
There are other trailers out now that are almost as nice, but a little shorter and lighter, have you looked at the cougar xlite? or a outback lite? My brother in-law bought the outback lite last year, 30' 6200lbs dry with 2 slides, had i seen that trailer it would have been in my driveway as it is a better match for my TV.


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## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

Everyone here has spoken my thoughts on it. Too much trailer, too little TV.

-CC


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## Ymryl (Mar 2, 2004)

No way in hell I would attempt to pull that monster with my Sequoia. The 28RSS is 29' and even that is more than I would recommend, 36'? No Way. My recommendation? Go back to the dealer and punch him square in the nose for lying to you.


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## jamahosky (Dec 20, 2008)

Please do not take me as being rude or disrespectful. From what I am reading, everyone has there own opinions and thoughts. I have talked with some Toyota owners and they are not surprised about the information that I have received since many people are not familiar with Toyota and the newer line of the vehicles. With assistance I was able to calculate all may weights and was found to be well under the gross, with worse case senario 500lbs to spare, if not more. And from what I have been reading on the all the post, not just this thread, no matter what vehicle and trailer one has, there is always going to be limitations, it is just knowing how to deal with them. Thank you to everyone for their information.


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

We offered our opinions based on personal experiences. Of course we all have different opinions. I sincerely hope that yours is a positive one. I still reccomend a weigh in once you are loaded. Stick around and contribute! Most importantly, enjoy the OB!


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

jamahosky said:


> Please do not take me as being rude or disrespectful. From what I am reading, everyone has there own opinions and thoughts. I have talked with some Toyota owners and they are not surprised about the information that I have received since many people are not familiar with Toyota and the newer line of the vehicles. With assistance I was able to calculate all may weights and was found to be well under the gross, with worse case senario 500lbs to spare, if not more. And from what I have been reading on the all the post, not just this thread, no matter what vehicle and trailer one has, there is always going to be limitations, it is just knowing how to deal with them. Thank you to everyone for their information.


I'd love to see the final numbers you have calculated. This way we can have them if/when the next person comes along with the same setup.

Do you have them broken out into your truck and the trailer weights?

Looking forward to hearing back from you.


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## Sayonara (Jul 23, 2007)

Oregon_Camper said:


> Please do not take me as being rude or disrespectful. From what I am reading, everyone has there own opinions and thoughts. I have talked with some Toyota owners and they are not surprised about the information that I have received since many people are not familiar with Toyota and the newer line of the vehicles. With assistance I was able to calculate all may weights and was found to be well under the gross, with worse case senario 500lbs to spare, if not more. And from what I have been reading on the all the post, not just this thread, no matter what vehicle and trailer one has, there is always going to be limitations, it is just knowing how to deal with them. Thank you to everyone for their information.


I'd love to see the final numbers you have calculated. This way we can have them if/when the next person comes along with the same setup.

Do you have them broken out into your truck and the trailer weights?

Looking forward to hearing back from you.








[/quote]

I agree. It would be nice to see how the numbers look once all calculated out. Let us know what you came up with.

Travel safe and enjoy !!


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## clarkely (Sep 15, 2008)

Stick around and contribute to the Forums!!
I personally believe you have the power...............but not the footprint, i think you will find that after you make some trips you will be doing all the things you can to make it safer, or an easier tow.......whether that be airs springs or helpers, propride or Hensley........i believe you will find the mast majority on this site to be respectful to you , your safety, & the safety of others in a polite respectful fashion. And when there is something new to contribute from a new or different experience..most will look at it with unbiased eyes......... - or - you may decide you need to upgrade to a SUV or Pickup with a longer wheelbase.........

Make sure you weigh it and run the numbers..........make sure you are not over your rear axle limits........i believe you will find your tongue weight to be in the 1200 lb+ range.

Good luck and be safe,
Clarke


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## MJRey (Jan 21, 2005)

Welcome, that's a beautiful trailer that your family should enjoy. From my experience and having looked at the Tundra/Sequoia when I was new vehicle shopping last year here are my observations.

- You should have enough power with the Sequoia as the motor/trans on the Toyotas are very good.
- The Sequoia wheelbase is a bit short for that length trailer (IMHO) but that can be accomodated with something like the Hensley or Propride hitches. The Equalizer and Reese are good but may not be enough for your setup.
- Weights, check all of your weights carefully. I think the GVWR or Payload of the Sequoia will be the most challenging to stay below or close to. The gross combined could be fine but check to be sure. I probably wouldn't worry too much if you're close on the numbers, close to me would be about 200 lbs and if I was over 500 lbs off then I would start to get worried. I think the rear axle weight limit is the most critical but that's just my opinion.

Take your time on your first trip and expect to spend some extra time making adjustments to get everything setup properly and then you can decide for yourself.


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## Calvin&Hobbes (May 24, 2006)

I apologize up front if this has already been said, but check your tires- load ratings. When I first started towing with an old double axle pop up (a beast) I found that I had a "wiggle" at highway speed that would come and go with passing cars. Turned out I had "B" load rated tires (passenger car). Had to upgrade to "D"'s for the wieght. With my RQS, I went with "E" rated tires with the stiffer sidewalls.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

I did not post earlier since it seemed like it was all covered but now that you say we are not giving the Toy any credit for what it can do is a bit untrue. Most all the information on here is not based on guess work but actual experience with the very issue you questioned in the begining so please post the numbers for your worst case scenario where you still have margin to pull the trailer you have with the truck you have. We will also love to hear your comments once you have a few miles under your belt with the combination.


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## 'Ohana (May 20, 2007)

jamahosky said:


> Please do not take me as being rude or disrespectful. From what I am reading, everyone has there own opinions and thoughts. I have talked with some Toyota owners and they are not surprised about the information that I have received since many people are not familiar with Toyota and the newer line of the vehicles. With assistance I was able to calculate all may weights and was found to be well under the gross, with worse case senario 500lbs to spare, if not more. And from what I have been reading on the all the post, not just this thread, no matter what vehicle and trailer one has, there is always going to be limitations, it is just knowing how to deal with them. Thank you to everyone for their information.










Just curious as to what is the % of those owners who have the same combination of TT/TV equivalent to your setup









Ed


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## clarkely (Sep 15, 2008)

Calvin&Hobbes said:


> I apologize up front if this has already been said, but check your tires- load ratings. When I first started towing with an old double axle pop up (a beast) I found that I had a "wiggle" at highway speed that would come and go with passing cars. Turned out I had "B" load rated tires (passenger car). Had to upgrade to "D"'s for the wieght. With my RQS, I went with "E" rated tires with the stiffer sidewalls.


X2 
I left that out................with my last trailer and a 1500 burb...............air springs and E rated Tires made a world of difference for sway control .............before upgrading to the proPride

Like i said earlier...........your TV has plenty enough power............its the Size of the sail in relationship to the footprint of the TV is what would concern me.


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## puffer (Aug 28, 2008)

I say giver it a shot and see what happens....


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