# Has Anyone Contemplated A Class Action Suit?



## Rollrs45 (May 7, 2007)

I was doing my normal maintenance (conditioning the roof, circling around the exterior w/ a cauk gun, etc.) when I noticed that dreadful site, what looked like a bubble forming on my front end cap.









Now I have read countless stories on here about owners facing delam problems and have seen where Keystone has stepped up in some instances, and not in others (more not than anything). As I sit here and contemplate future conversations with Keystone that I'm sure I will have, I began wondering if anyone has contemplated a class-action law suit against them? Obviously this is a design flaw that Keystone is well aware of, yet they continue with their normal assembly and manufacturing process with no changes being made. I would be very interested to know how many members of this forum have faced this issue and whether it was resolved....... via Keystone footing the bill or the owner coming out of pocket. Finding an attorney to handle the case I'm sure would be a breeze....... so many owners with problems translates into big $$$$ for Keystone..... not to mention the attorney.

I have owned my Keystone for 1 1/2 years and I am the original owner. I personally didn't expect to spend 20K on a TT that in a little over a year might need an entire new end cap......... So, before I let my dealer look at this and start the arduous journey that I know is inevitable, I figured I would check here first.

If this is a delam issue, either Keystone steps up......... or Mikey looks to hit em where it hurts!


----------



## raynardo (Jun 8, 2007)

I was one of the fortunate ones, mine was repaired under warranty.

But the issue you raise needs to be discussed with an attorney specializing in class action lawsuits. I would guess, though, that any attorney would recommend that you at least petition Keystone for repairs of a known problem. If Keystone refuses, then you have a case, and a pretty good one as well. This group would probably be a good resource for not only similar stories, but people wishing to participate in any class action suit brought forth.


----------



## Sayonara (Jul 23, 2007)

Do we have a list or poll started of those who have had delam issues ? It would be interesting to see which models it is more prevelant on.... or maybe it is across the lineup.


----------



## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

While on the phone with Keystone last week about another member's plight with an out of warranty situation, I was told that they (Keystone) will usually extend an extra 6 month courtesy window on mfg defects.

You might want to call them and see what they have to say...


----------



## FraTra (Aug 21, 2006)

You can count me In!

My 2007 25RSS has had several issues including delam. Fortunantly for me it was within the first year and Keystone had to cover it. Now that my warranty is out I'm not looking forward to the next major issue. My front end cap was replaced and I have heard of replacements delaming also.


----------



## Rollrs45 (May 7, 2007)

If what I'm seeing is a delam issue I fully intend on giving them the chance to cover the repairs. I could understand if my TT was 3,4 maybe 5 years old. However, we're talking about a 2007 model that I've owned right at 1 1/2 years. Not to mention a 2007 that has been babied. This trailer has been waxed frequently and the roof gets conditioned every 3 months. I've purchased all of the exterior sealants, Dicor, Butyl tape, and silicone caulking directly from the dealership as recommended, only because I didn't want to do anything to void the warranty. Heck, I even bought RV wash for the first year or so.

I'll just have to see what they say and if it's not what I'm hoping to hear, I fully intend on speaking with an attorney. To sell a product you know is defective, or at least has the potential to be defective, is bad business.

I guess the thing that concerns me is; we all know they monitor this website and are aware of the de-lamination problems. So why do they continue to manufacture a product that's defective.......????? The answer is probably very simple, it's cheaper to manufacturer than other methods.

Anyway..... thanks for letting me vent and we'll see how it goes.


----------



## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

There is no way its cheaper to use sub standard products and have to pay outside contractors for warranty work.. There are less problems with 2007's than 2006's, so they have done somthing different..

Mine has a horrible bad spot on it also. Not very worried about it.. I will put my own front cap from my own materials if it gets to bothering me..

I dont believe in lawsuits, so I wont be part of your deal. Yea people and companies take advantage of me from time to time.. Dont really care. I knew when I bought my trailer it is very cheaply made from mostly subpar materials.. I knew that and figured I will fix what is not good myself.

The profits are very thin for all involved in RV's.. Nothing like auto manufactures. So yes they use cheap materials, and if you want something that will last, you must spend in the 50k range.

This is my opinion... Sue all you want.. When you dont spend much, you dont get much..

Carey


----------



## prevish gang (Mar 19, 2006)

Mike, 
You might want to drop a note to Ghosty. He seems to have a level head and a pretty good idea of what will fly. I hear your frustration and am sorry that you are having problems.

Darlene


----------



## Rollrs45 (May 7, 2007)

We're way off from seeking an attorney out, I haven't even got the tt to the dealer yet to see if it is delam. I was just curious if anyone had looked into a class action suit because of all the problems these end caps have given.

I'm not here to drum up support and get a feel for who would be willing to "sign-up" for a suit..... just wondering if anyone has contemplated it or actually done it? If I do have delam issues I'll wait and see what Keystone is willing to do. I don't like suing anyone either and I've never filed a civil claim in my life.......... however, I do expect the front end of my TT to stay where it was put, no matter how much my OB cost. If my tt were 5 years old we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Prevish, thanks for the suggestion. I may end up using your advise after I see what lies ahead.


----------



## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Class action suits are used for safety issues, not cosmetic issues.. Even automakers never lose class actions for cosmetic issues.

Delam is a cosmetic issue 90% of the time.

If we had solid fiberglass end caps we wouldnt have delam issues.. Since our campers have soft end caps delam will always be an issue with any mfr of RV's..

Yes, it matters if my rv falls apart.. I well knew going into this i would have many cosmetic issues that would be subpar to me.. I knew I could deal with that.. Since our campers are actually very cheap by comparision, I felt the tradeoff was worth it..

Keystone has done a really great job of offering us a nice cheap trailer that is a recreational unit.. Its by no means a full time unit, its a weekend/vacation unit..

Who demanded this... Not the full timers... Us vacationeers and us weekenders demanded a unit to look like a full timers with a super cheap price..

I knew all this goin in, so I knew I would have to be able to understand and deal with some cosmetic issues on my own..

Now safety issues are another thing.. There is no reason at all to have mass safety issues with a trailer reguardless of price.

Carey


----------



## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

If there was some other material that could be used I guarantee they'd use it..

Why doesnt someone here design a soft end cap that can be used in place of the filon caps the mfr's are using..

All of the mfr's buy this material from the same place.. If you could make something better they would be more than happy to buy it from you..

You could be a millionair in short order..

Some use different vacuum bonding processes, but they all use the same skin from the same place then vacuum bond the inner panels from there..

The end caps arent bonded, they are just the skin.. Since its curved and flexes terribly, it goes thru heck. Once it gets some sweating from moisture it wrinkles and is called delam by the general public.

Carey


----------



## BenandTina (Jul 13, 2005)

Carey, my camper was $22,000 new. Do you consider this cheap?


----------



## Crawfish (Sep 14, 2005)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> If there was some other material that could be used I guarantee they'd use it..
> 
> Why doesnt someone here design a soft end cap that can be used in place of the filon caps the mfr's are using..
> 
> ...


I spent a lot of money for my Outback also and I would expect at least a little assistance from Keystone for a product that has developed a flaw. 
Carey I would like to ask you a question and that is, would you say the same thing if you didn't pull campers for Keystone or anyother manufacturer?

Leon


----------



## roo camper (Sep 17, 2008)

I obviously didn’t research the brand well enough to know about the delam problem, rather I bought it because its design fits my needs. Does someone have a pic of the problem that they could post? So is the problem strictly cosmetic or functional? Carey makes it sound as if its not delam at all rather maybe some sort of warping of material. Just curious in case I have a problem I know what I am facing.


----------



## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

I agree that the word "cheap" was not a good choice..."less expensive" might have been a better option...

This thread was almost closed earlier due to choices of words that might be insulting to others...
Let's play nice and try to stay on topic!


----------



## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

roo camper said:


> I obviously didn't research the brand well enough to know about the delam problem, rather I bought it because its design fits my needs. Does someone have a pic of the problem that they could post? *So is the problem strictly cosmetic or functional?* Carey makes it sound as if its not delam at all rather maybe some sort of warping of material. Just curious in case I have a problem I know what I am facing.


Strictly cosmetic but when it happens it indicates a leak. The delam is 99.9% due to moisture leak and 99% of those are around the front marker lights or due to rock chip damage.

You can tell if you have it as the front cap is no longer smooth and flat but looks like rust pushing up under paint.


----------



## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Delem occurs when a series of panels seperate.. The only place our trailers have a series of panels is on the sides.

If the front or rear panels are installed whithout care and are put into a bind, they will wrinkle over time, especially if some moisture is invloved from sweating.

The reasons for many of the bad installations are from the workers at the factory.. better say no more there.

Everyone thinks the front cap delams, but there is only a skin bonded to cardbord for some extra strength.. The cardboard begins to buldge or wrinkle, this causes the skin to wrinkle with it.. What can cause the cardboard to buldge?... A bind or moisture, either will make the skin have a bad spot.

Sometimes the cardboard seperates from the skin because of the pressure caused from the bind or bend.. The cardboard could go inward and cause the skin to go outward.

No not picking on keystone cause all of the lower end RV's use the same front and rear caps.. Remember our Outbacks are just a step up fron the sheetmetal trailers.. They are a lower mid line, not top of the line.

A nice trailer with hard end caps are in the 30k and up range..

All of the lessor lines use all the same products..

The new replacement panels are done by dealers and some have better luck than others.. Some redo's have done the same thing.

The replacement panel is no different than what came factory. The replacemet panel stand a better chance of not wrinkleing because the frame and trailer has setteled.. Yea just like a house..

A new trailer will have some frame movement till it settles or breaks in.. This can also cause the end caps to wrinkle..

Yea our trailers cost alot, but still they are mid to low priced comparitivly.

There has been some panels that actually failed.. One was Tony(i think) from durango, co. But actual panel failures are far between..

Ive learned all this since I started haulin rv's.. Why, because I get to talk to dealers and people who used to work at the factories before they changed there labor force..

All brands with soft end caps have this so called delam problem.. Is it gonna hurt anything? no, but its ugly..

Dont know what to say I speak from my heart am and one who tells it like it is.. I use words like cheap instead of inexpensive..

Sorry been a trucker too long..

Carey


----------



## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

CamperAndy said:


> I obviously didn't research the brand well enough to know about the delam problem, rather I bought it because its design fits my needs. Does someone have a pic of the problem that they could post? *So is the problem strictly cosmetic or functional?* Carey makes it sound as if its not delam at all rather maybe some sort of warping of material. Just curious in case I have a problem I know what I am facing.


Strictly cosmetic but when it happens it indicates a leak. The delam is 99.9% due to moisture leak and 99% of those are around the front marker lights or due to rock chip damage.

You can tell if you have it as the front cap is no longer smooth and flat but looks like rust pushing up under paint.
[/quote]

If the panel is in a bind it can cause some buldging, or wrinkling also.. But yes moisture accelerates the problem if it is already started.. So even some high humidty from sleeping in or morning dew could cause this to happen..

Cardboard has no memory, and makes its own if under stress or moisture.

Hope this makes since..

Carey


----------



## roo camper (Sep 17, 2008)

Thanks for the information


----------



## Rollrs45 (May 7, 2007)

Crawfish said:


> If there was some other material that could be used I guarantee they'd use it..
> 
> Why doesnt someone here design a soft end cap that can be used in place of the filon caps the mfr's are using..
> 
> ...


I spent a lot of money for my Outback also and I would expect at least a little assistance from Keystone for a product that has developed a flaw. 
Carey I would like to ask you a question and that is, would you say the same thing if you didn't pull campers for Keystone or anyother manufacturer?

Leon








[/quote]


----------



## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

For your info, I have picked up 2 cyclones that had major delam on the sides.. Both came from the pacific northwest.. Both had water leaks that got out of hand.. One trailer was 3 years old, one was 2 years old.. The factory paid to have them returned, repaired, and returned back to there owners. the factory replaced the entire sides of the units.. the trailers were out of the owners hands around 2 months each.. The one owner I talked with was totally disgusted with his 80k cyclone. He lived in Vancouver, BC.

Delam is pretty widespread.. has nothing to do with with what brand.

Another lil for your info..
We were forwarned to never toss out a cigerette butt when pulling Heartland North Trail 5ers.. There front caps are made from plastic sheeting.. Several guys had melted spots or mar spots from the cigerettes hitting the panel after tossing them out the window..

My last North Trail had some bird poop on the front panel.. It etched a spot into the panel.. When I had it washed there was a bad spot from the bird poop.. The dealer seen it and decided after 30 mins that it wasnt my fault and they thought they could buff some of it out..

Now this is the front cap below the rise. I call it the 5er pocket.. Its where the storage door is in front..

Again the North Trail is very bottom line, but can you imagine what that pocket will look like in a few years?

Yes, sad, but when they build inexpensive(lol) campers there is a large amount of what I call subpar materials used..

It is what it is.. What can be done about it?.. This is why all of them dont allow a warranty past a year.... They know!

There is so many angles going on with our Outbacks nose, just a little extra wad of insulation will bow the front skin a bit in a spot.. When it gets a lil moisture, the cardboard takes a new shape and makes the skin look bad and gets blamed as delam..

The rear cap is the exact same stuff... Do a search, youll see that few have trouble with the rear cap and so called delam.. But many, many have trouble with the front.

They are using the best panel they can for the amount of money spent. I know it makes people mad, but keystone is prolly doin all they can.. Maybe a new design of the nose is needed.. Dont know..

Carey


----------



## Kenstand (Mar 25, 2004)

I had a friend that owned a 26' Coleman Trailer that was very comparable to an Outback. His trailer was 4 - 5 years old when he started having delamination problems. Like many of you he went onto the internet forum for his trailer (like Outbackers) and found out that the manufacturer was offering to fix or replace the trailers. In his case he opted for a new replacement trailer. I think he did have to pay a pro-rated share for the new trailer but it was a much better deal than he could have gotten by trading outright.

Good luck to everyone having problems...


----------



## Rollrs45 (May 7, 2007)

Kenstand said:


> I had a friend that owned a 26' Coleman Trailer that was very comparable to an Outback. His trailer was 4 - 5 years old when he started having delamination problems. Like many of you he went onto the internet forum for his trailer (like Outbackers) and found out that the manufacturer was offering to fix or replace the trailers. In his case he opted for a new replacement trailer. I think he did have to pay a pro-rated share for the new trailer but it was a much better deal than he could have gotten by trading outright.
> 
> Good luck to everyone having problems...


That's very interesting..... Thanks for the information! It sounds like Coleman stepped up and did the right thing.


----------



## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

I'm enjoying reading this and have a couple observations to add:

1. I'm with Carey that these trailers are relatively cheap inexpensive (It's all relative







and I suspect Airstreams don't have delam problems







)

2. The warranty on your trailer was 1 year (Don't get mad at me, I'm just pointing out the obvious, and yes, some brands do have longer warranties)

3. A manufacturer should consider it in their best interest to keep their customers happy. This may include repairs out of the warranty period.

4. #3 is strictly voluntary and you can't sue them just because they don't

5. As a consumer, you have the ultimate control of the situation on future purchases ($$$).

Now, I will clearly state that the only problems I had with my OB were a flat tire that tore things up, and a gas station that got in my way.








I would certainly have purchased another one, but they didn't make anything big enough for the DW.....









edited: BTW, my first trailer was a Fleetwood pop up (branded as a Coleman). A large percentage of the roofs failed, and although fleetwood would share some of the costs under certain circumstances, the replacement of the roof still cost $$$$. There is no perfect brand out there, and there was no real recourse out there for the owners other than research and voting with their wallet.


----------



## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

I think Nathan makes some good points here, and as I was reading his thoughts, I had a couple of my own...

It would seem to me that a class action suit would have to demonstrate negligence on the part of the manufacturer. Either in design, construction or both. If, as is the case here, the manufacturer is using industry standard materials and practices, I think it would be hard(er) to establish a case that they are being negligent. Unless you want to sue the industry as a whole for what has been common and accepted practice for as long time.









As far as class action suits go in general, I have often wondered if the plaintiffs really come out of them all that much ahead anyway. I have received a few offers to participate in class action suits in the past, and in reading the fine print it always seems that the lawyers are going to make a killing on the deal, and the rest of us get to share the scraps that are left over. Which in most cases wouldn't amount to a lot on an individual basis. Consequently, I have never participated in one, as it hasn't seemed worth my while. But, maybe I have been missing the boat. Again...









And who pays the lawyers, if you don't win the case? Obviously, they are not recovering their 'expenses' from the defendants (In this case, the manufacturer). Where are they going to turn. Hmm...

That said, I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.
(Although I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express)

Happy Trails,
Doug


----------



## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Good stuff Nathan, and Doug! I for sure aint(lol) the best with words.. Im sorry if my lack of creatism in my wording was taken wrong.. What you guys said in only a few words said took me 4-5 posts to say









Carey


----------



## Rollrs45 (May 7, 2007)

Just and update on my end.....

I went to my dealer today and explained the situation with the front cap. The camper is currently at the beach with my parents so it wasn't with me. I towed it down there Sunday, set it up for them , and will return this Sunday to pick it up. Anyway, the service manager said they've had to deal with the front end caps on some other Keystone products and would go to bat for me if needed. She mentioned something about a 3 year structural warranty....... not sure what she's talking about but if it gets my front end fixed then great! I've scheduled to bring the TT in next Friday so they can look at it and take some photos.

Her response kind of shocked me. She said that since I was one of their customers they would do everything in their power to help me out. I guess that's one of the advantages of buying locally versus buying at one of the out-of-state wholesalers. They move a lot of Keystone products so they may have some pull with the manufacturer. She even said if they didn't want to play ball then maybe the dealership could pick up some of the cost. At any rate, I feel a lot better than I did before. We'll just have to see how it goes from here.

I'll let everyone know what they say next Friday.

Mike


----------



## outbackinMT (Oct 7, 2006)

Hey Mike I'm glad this all worked out for you. Thanks to all for clarifying the inexpensive vs. cheap comment. I would just like to say that we've been going with friends as they've been shopping for a new fifth wheel, as theirs was totalled this summer by a hail storm. We looked at the 'expensive' campers (more than $50,000)--and what we found was that in a lot of cases, a heftier price does not necessarily dictate better quality.

Just my 2 cents.

Brenda


----------



## tlasseig (Feb 7, 2008)

outbackinMT said:


> Hey Mike I'm glad this all worked out for you. Thanks to all for clarifying the inexpensive vs. cheap comment. I would just like to say that we've been going with friends as they've been shopping for a new fifth wheel, as theirs was totalled this summer by a hail storm. We looked at the 'expensive' campers (more than $50,000)--and what we found was that in a lot of cases, a heftier price does not necessarily dictate better quality.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.
> 
> Brenda


ok ok ok --i just gotta put in my 0.02--how how about "Cost Effective'??? or Cost efficient??


----------



## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

tlasseig said:


> ok ok ok --i just gotta put in my 0.02--how how about "Cost Effective'??? or Cost efficient??


Sounds like a Dilbert cartoon...








My OB was 30' long and cost 1/2 of the price of my 1/2 ton truck. The new camper is a 35' 5er and when new, retailed for ~3/4 the price of of my 1 ton truck.

Glad to hear the dealer is stepping up Mike! They clearly are abiding by rule #3.


----------



## sassy (Oct 23, 2008)

Rollrs45 said:


> I was doing my normal maintenance (conditioning the roof, circling around the exterior w/ a cauk gun, etc.) when I noticed that dreadful site, what looked like a bubble forming on my front end cap.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------

