# What If......



## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

So, let me begin the story... in the beginning.








(Some may know parts of this background, but I'll summarize for those that don't)

*Part 1: In search of Basic Comfort*
DW and I went camping at RMNP while we were dating 10 years ago. We took her Taurus and threw a cooler, tent, etc in the trunk and headed out. Had a great time, but she wasn't a big fan of the tent.







We took a summer off from camping to get married, but we then purchased a Coleman Pop-up. I was very familiar with them having grown up camping in Pop up's so it was a logical choice. The Coleman traveled behind us on destinations ranging from the Canadian Rockies to the Maine coastline. Never an issue with it. It dutifully followed us everywhere and wasn't much work as I was used to the setup/takedown and towing. DS came along after the Rockies trip but before Maine and he also enjoyed camping around Michigan. When the DW is pregnant with #2, she get's invited to a family reunion in San Diego. Well, I see that as an opprotunity to put 7k miles on the Minivan and see a part of the country I haven't before. My parents hear of the plan and suggest that we take their brand new 5'er/Truck combo so we will have A/C and a Bathroom (apparently needed for pregnant women.....







). So, this brings us to part 2:

*Part 2: Chasing the house on wheels*
By the time we are in San Diego, I understand that I will never camp in the pop up again.








We start talking about options for us. Of course we don't need a 5'er with a 3/4 ton truck







, so we start on the search for TT's. I start looking at Hybrids and then she starts coming along and likes the hard rear slides. Mind you I'm looking for something I can tow with a midsize SUV, but after a few months, I go ahead and get a 1/2 ton truck "just in case." A month later we got to a camper show looking for the 26RS and she sees the OB 28RSDS and I'm in big trouble. Now I own a rig that's longer than my Parent's (truck and trailer combined) and rather unwieldy with a 1/2 ton truck. It becomes harder to find campsites and the drive is uncomfortably stressful. Everytime I see a pop up I get this longing for the days of old. Last spring I solved the truck issue when I turned in my 150 lease early and got the 350. That summer we had a nice trip (minus the blown tire on the OB), and I literally dragged that trailer everywhere (including up over Beartooth pass which everyone cautioned against). It was still long and a royal pain whenever I was in the city, but I dealt with it. We did however begin talking about a 5th wheel because it would have more room, no sway, easier to setup and hitch, and why not, we had the 1 ton truck. So last fall we stumbled upon a used 5'er that seemed to fit our needs. Sure, it was now 35' long, it weighted 10,500 lbs empty, but the kids were thrilled with their room and we decided to park it on a seasonal site when we weren't on our "big trip" each year.

*Part 3: What the @%!#^$#!% did I sign up for?*
This summer, we lugged the big boy out to Colorado. I have zero complaints about the performance of the trailer, but came to a few realizations, including the fact that it's pretty hard to find a campsite at a National park that can take a 35' trailer. Even when you find one, the full profile height of 13' is less than easy to deal with as I met several tree limbs in the campgrounds (neither side won in case you are wondering...). Additionally, the stress level negotiating around town got even higher. I was not in a good mood when driving and was way more stressed than a bad day at work. That's not my idea of Vacation, and furthermore, one of DS's friend's dad had a heart attack and died while we were gone, which put the whole stress thing more on my mind. Anyway, after Vacation DW poked at me for being so tense and I explained how I felt about the trailer. We reviewed how we got here, and realized that we were basically trying to re-create a house wherever we went. Of course she was ok, because she didn't have to pull it, but she understood and doesn't want me to be that stressed on vacation.

*Part 4: ????????????????*
So where from here.... First of all: We're not making any big moves initially because we're a little tired of buying trailers every 2 years







.
We talked about Motorhomes, but there are 2 issues: 1st, they're at least as big as our current rig; 2nd, we are concerned about safety and would want 4 automotive style seats with lap and shoulder belts. More seriously, we have looked at 2 options. The first is a shorter 5th wheel... something under 30' long and 10-11' tall. Most lines sell one, but some are more aerodynamic and lightweight than others. Here's a Cougar Xlite, and a Surveyor. This options keeps you in a 3/4 or 1 ton truck, and keeps it more along the lines of the home on wheels, albiet a smaller home.









The second is a slightly more radical approach. We've talked about moving to a cross-over vehicle with a very lightweight TT. Now, everyone should know that I'm a big proponent of having enough TV, but I'm not above viewing the changing climate in both vehicle and TT design. For those of you that haven't looked at some of these, they are pretty interesting. Here's the one that currently has my interest: Heartland Edge, and interestingly enough, it's light enough to be towed with the DW's Flex. At first I was afraid of the old payload limitation until I realized that her car has just 400 lbs less of payload as my F150 did.

So, after pages of rambling the question is what will Part 4 be titled? One option is "A reasonable house on wheels," and the second is "Comforts and Basic Convienences." I don't have to make up my mind until the truck lease is up in the spring of 2011, so stay tuned......









P.S. I don't in any way want to discourage other's from upgrading (and supporting our economy), but before you do, ask youself why you are doing it, and will the upgrade prevent you from doing the kind of camping you like to do. That question would have saved me a lot of money. Many people on here are probably happy toting their 35-40' SOB's, it's just not for me at this stage of my life.


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## SouthLa26RS (Jul 10, 2006)

Interesting views Nathan, I bet most do not stop and ask these type questions when searching for a TT. Most get caught up in bigger is always better.


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

SouthLa26RS said:


> Interesting views Nathan, I bet most do not stop and ask these type questions when searching for a TT. Most get caught up in bigger is always better.


Yes, and we were right with them for a while here.


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## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

Nathan - wow - you are on the exact same page we are on. Ghosty and I were just talking about this EXACT same thing at the last Texas Outbacker Rally. This is why he ended up with a 33' 5'er instead of the bigger ones you more commonly see. DW and I think just like you do - we do not want a home away from home because when we go camping - we are there to do camping things - not home things. In our 23RS we have a TV. It comes on for weather reports and during bad weather when we pass the time watching a movie. That is it. No consoles. No hand-held electronic games. I carry an iPod and a dock and play Texas Swing music for us all to listen to when we are hanging around camp.

I have recently spoken with the brand manager of Heartland about this and suggested to him that he make a change to their front bunk model. I suggested a front bunk with 2 bunks on 1 side, a bunk and jackknife sofa under it on the front wall and a small ward slide for storage on the other side wall. Include a side-aisle bath, superslide in the main room and a bed slide in the back master and figure out a way to keep it under 33'. Can you imagine a 30-31' 5'er with a family oriented floorplan like this in a mid-profile (12' or under) with a dry weight in the 9k range? Combine that with Heartland quality, one of their 88deg aero-nose caps and they would have a huge success on their hands.

People are thinking more and more like you and I - the reason we go camping is to camp. I have even asked dealers how much they will give me if they take all the TV's out of the thing. Until we can find a 5'er that has a floorplan, length and height like I described, we are going to stick with the camper we have now. Like you guys going to National Parks, we mainly go to State Parks where the sites are anything but big. There isn't a single pull-through at either of the parks we normally go to (Caprock Canyons and Copper Breaks). Some sites we camp at - we can park our 23RS with the wheels near the back (stab jacks on the very back edge of the asphalt), put our truck in front of it and have maybe a 3' - 4' space between the two and the nose of my truck is as close to the road as I want it.

We don't want a house, we want a camper.

-CC


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## timewizard (Jun 9, 2007)

We also followed in the same footsteps, but we went with a low profile 5er. We love going to state parks here in WI and we decided on a CrossRoads Zinger zf27rl its not fancy but we love it. It pulls like a dream and is very easy to put in tight spots. My DH is 6'4" and the interior height was a big issue. With the TT he hit his head on just about everything on the ceiling. I still look at the big tall 5ers and dream someday a 80 gallon fresh water tank would be great for a week long stay. But the ease and flexibility of the unit we have now it will always be just a dream.

It's interesting to here what other have to say about long trips. That was the one of the major reasons why we decided to go to a 5er. The TT was way more work to pull than my semi (dry bulk tanker) I drive for work. I hate to struggle when I'm traveling it should be fun, easy and relaxing. I feel we have found that with the type of unit we have now. We are planning a long trip next year to Moab, UT.

Good luck with whatever you decide and having a good time is #1. 
Alicia


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Curtis,

This summer when we pulled into some of the big RV parks, everyone is unwinding their coax and DW says "I can watch my shows tonight" Then I had to explain that we didn't pack any coax







, but the tv might pick up one channel with the antenna. Then she said, "Well, at least I can web surf with the free wi-fi" Uhhh, the computer I brought was for picture downloading (from the cameras) and didn't have wi-fi.








She confiscated my smartphone as punishment.









But, the only reason we were looking for things to do is the RV park didn't allow campfires... and the reason we were in a RV park is because we were too big to get into the NFS campgrounds in the area (or at least I was too afraid to try)...

Yep, the next one needs to be below 30' if it is a 5'er and below 26' if it is a bumper pull.


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## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

Nathan said:


> Curtis,
> 
> This summer when we pulled into some of the big RV parks, everyone is unwinding their coax and DW says "I can watch my shows tonight" Then I had to explain that we didn't pack any coax
> 
> ...


LOL - I understand. DW is happy with a book and if it is hot - she needs the A/C - especially now that she is in "third trimester" mode hehe. We typically don't bring a computer with us - I am in the computer business and if I had one with me, chances are that the office would call and want me to help do something for a customer. There is some innovative thinking going on out there with the changing market. Edge is a sign of that. I see no reason why we couldn't have a 30-31' 5'er in a mid (or low)-pro with a front bunk room. Sure - the side-aisle bathroom will be more compact and so will the rear master bedroom. I don't mind that at all. Shoot - I sleep in lil cave right now in the rear slide hehe.

I just keep thinking that we are seeing a new trend towards smaller and lighter. Consumers will still want their features though as your DW does (when there is no campfires allowed)







I know I am not the only consumer out there that is looking for something like what I have been talking about.

-CC


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## Lmbevard (Mar 18, 2006)

I can understand where you are coming from. We have a 30' 5th wheel with a standard cab truck. In one of our favorite campgrounds, there is really only 1 campsite that I can comfortably get this unit in. There are a couple of others that might work, but thankfully I have had to try. At a local county park there is again only one spot that works, the rest are too short or because of the hill side I would not be able to get in it. At the Bible camp we work at every summer, the area is too short to easily get the camper in with out crunching the camper into the truck bed (done that 4 or 5 times. The only saving grace is that too hook up I can jack knife into it and get it out. I have been to several federal campgrounds a long time ago but understand that they have not been updated for a long time. I the Black Hills, there are roads that I would not be able to get through because of the tight, narrow curves and understand that there are many other places like that out west.

I agree with you, you need to stop and consider what your true needs are in a camper. As you get bigger, it begins to get harder to pull and get into and out of places, plus it seems that you start hauling around more junk than you need. When we had our pop-up (we had two) we took only what we really needed and did without the rest. Now that we have the big camper, we take half the house with us and never use it. All it does is lower our gas mileage. You can have fun even with something super small. I love the new tear-drop trailers. They are well thought out and functional. Our first pop-up weighed 900 lbs. and we pulled it with a Ford Farmont wagon. Our next one was a lot heavier but we pulled it with a Safari Van with no problems. We did consider getting a 24" expandable camper but it ended up that the 5er was not that much more than one of those, so we skipped a step. I think if we still had kids and was camping every weekend like we use to, I might have not gone with the big unit. It's nice for what we do. We tend to stay someplace 4 or more days, but there has been times when the wife wanted to go for 1 night that I really didn't want to bother with all the hassle of getting the camper ready.

Good luck with what you want to do. Take a look as several different models and sizes till you find a good fit. As far as TV. I just looked at a crew cab Colorado 4x4 that has a towing capacity of 5500 lbs. not bad for a small truck. So there are still small units out there that can pull.


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## Scoutr2 (Aug 21, 2006)

Yeah, we too have had conversations along these lines. After nine seasons in two pop-ups, we were tired of all the cranking up and down. And we decided that we'd had our fill of wet beds from setting up or tearing down in the rain. (I just hated to wake up on a morning that we had to tear down and move on, when I realized that what woke me was the pitter-patter of rain on the tenting over my head. - and the dread of dealing with trying to keep things dry - and now that I'm awake, I gotta pee - the bathroom is 50 yds away - and it's raining, which makes the "urge" all the more "urgent!")

The pop-up was a HUGE improvement over tent camping. Set-up and tear-down were much easier, no loading/unloading of gear every trip and at every overnight stop. No more beds to unroll and roll up. The kitchen was already set up. A fridge. An A/C. A furnace. We were the typical tents-to-popup-to-TT family. Most of you have been there - done that.

So when we moved "UP" to the Outback, we were in 7th heaven. Let it rain in the morning. Who cares!? And a bathroom inside the trailer in the middle of the night is a lot better than a 50 yard walk to the outhouse in God-knows-what-kind-of-weather, and in the dark. (And I walked into the "Little Girl's Room" one night at a campground near Kamiah, ID, when I was half asleep. That was interesting. I wondered what happened to those urinals







)

Don't get me wrong. We love our Outback. But we used to pull that pop-up behind our Suburban, 500-600 miles in a day. Towing was a breeze. Just had to be cautious in parking lots and gas stations. (Did 755 miles on our first day, one year. But that was unusual.) Towing is not difficult with our 3/4-ton pickup, but I cannot safely drive as fast as I did with the pop-up. And the concentration level required with 30' of trailer keeps me to 400 miles a day - 450 in a pinch. And we burn almost twice as much fuel with the Outback as we did with that big Coleman Bayside (which unfolded to 26'-9", and a side dinette slideout). I'm not too keen on pulling it too far westward, and my sister lives in Boise - 1800 miles westward. It's not the fuel costs, but the amount of time it would take to tow there and back through three major mountain ranges. All this luxury is limiting the options for having fun, given the amount of vacation time I have available. (If I were retired, the time wouldn't matter, but the cost probably would. Tit for tat!)

And I've though about the 5th-wheel thing, thinking it would make towing easier and less stressful, but then I'd need to get a diesel! So round and round we go.

I don't think we'll ever go back to a pop-up. So we will probably just keep what we have and fly to my sister's house when the urge strikes. We'll take fewer 5000 mile vacations. (One year we drove from Peoria, IL to Gettysburg, to D.C., to Rehoboth Beach, MD., to Adirondack SP, to Acadia, to Niagra Falls, and back home. 5000 miles in 3 weeks.)

I'm now thinking that when we are ready to unload the Outback, we just might try to find a nice, used, diesel motorhome. My DW's CTS would pull nicely behind that! And I won't need a 3/4-ton Crew Cab pickup that gets 14-15 mpg on the highway - not towing.)

So, Nathan, I see I'm not the only deep thinker when it comes to, "what do we really want to get out of these camping trips?" Our only answer, so far, is that we get away from the day-to-day stresses (but trade them for different ones), relax, see new things and meet new people in new places, and give our DD a lot of memories of her childhood and growing up - and hopefully she will continue the tradition with her kids, when the day comes (and not too soon! she's only 14). So we just decided not to dwell on the "What ifs . . ." and take each year as it comes at us.

A wise man once said that, "you are always where you are supposed to be." So I guess we will land where we are supposed to land, when it comes to Rving!

Mike


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Yeah Mike, you see I'm still trying to take those long hauls. With the pop up and before kids we acutally covered over 1000 miles in a day once. This summer we were on the road for 16 hours the first day. I think it was 700 some miles. That's a lot of time behind the wheel driving a big rig.









When we were kids we'd do 800 mile days getting out west. IT's not the most fun, but when you only have 2 or 3 weeks and want to get a couple thousand miles away from home, it's something you must do. No to mention, in a few years we want to get out to the PNW area. Talk about mileage!


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## johnp (Mar 15, 2004)

I have lived through your pain. Having started with a small class c and going to a big mistake class a. Then began the three outback and three truck stage. I am happy to say I'm cured we went to a 29' class c and all is well. hang in there sooner or later you will find the perfect combo that works for you and your family.

John


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

If you ever switch, I have something that will make a flex's payload not a worry. lol

I have pulled many of the brands and many sizes since getting this rv hauling job.

I can tell you for me, the stress level goes up at about 25 feet. No matter if its 5er of bumper pull. I use a dodge dually to tow these trailers around too.

When I back under any 5er, my truckers cap goes on, because I have to think and act like a trucker while I tow any 5er. Im thankful I have 20 yrs experience being a trucker, because I couldnt imagine ever enjoying a vacation with a 5er. Those babies are work when you drive. You have to be thinking conatantly while towing. The last thing I want to do on a vacation is think! Ill edit that to the big 5ers, because one still needs to think about the height on mid pro 5ers, but mid pro 5ers tow great.

As for the stability, I agree with the dry bulk tanker from above. Many 5er's are way more work to get down the road then any semi. And many TT's are too.

I choose to go haul rv's cause I wanted a bigger driving challenge. Yep I got that and I do enjoy it. But I can tell you, most any semi is easier to drive than many rv''s.

You know what I think. I think people have full timers envy. A full timer can deal with a huge 5er because they drive just a few hundred miles a day. They park in the fancy rv parks and stay out of the state parks. They own bigger tow vehicles because all that money that kids cost, now can go to a big fancy tow rig.

People see these people and become envious. Problem though. These envious people have to drive 4-600 miles each day while on vacation(well most do) Many of these people enjoy state parks cause it allows there kids to enjoy nature. Well, most full timers could give a rats you know what about nature. Most want a house on wheels, that they can take north in the summer and south in the winter. Many will only tow there full time rig 10,000 miles a year. Many way less.

A vacationeer quickly finds that trying to take a fun filled vacation with the kids aint so fun when you got a house behind that dad is stressed about manurvering to all the kid friendly places.

Not trying to be an A$$ here all. Im just telling you how I see things from my eyes and what I see on the roads.

And as I now go to hook onto a $70-80,000 Big Horn that is totally loaded with every amenity one could dream of and haul it to Reno, Nv. I would bet that its buyer will be a part time vacationeer..

Dont feel bad Nathan. We can sit and talk all day, and the next guy pondering and is in your previous situation will not be able to understand what is written in this thread.

One must experience this problem for themselves.

Dont feel bad about downsizing as its you and your families vacation Nathan. I know exactly what you are talking about. I wouldnt pull a big 5er out on the highway unless I was being paid to do it, or was retired. No middle ground, it would have to be one or the other. Well I suppose if I was able to take minimum month long vacations, a 5er would be niice. Any less and Ill stick to a small tt or small 5er.

And Curtis, I get ya. I just towed a 31 foot Sundance 3100 es to Saskatchewan and I got 12mpg and it towed very nice. That would be my limit if I ever wanted to vacation with a 5er.

Let them full timers deal with those 35+ foot 13 foot + tall rigs. They aint no fun to vacation with in my eyes cause they require too much thinking.

Carey


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## Camping Fan (Dec 18, 2005)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> When I back under any 5er, my truckers cap goes on, because I have to think and act like a trucker while I tow any 5er. Im thankful I have 20 yrs experience being a trucker, because I couldnt imagine ever enjoying a vacation with a 5er. Those babies are work when you drive. You have to be thinking conatantly while towing. The last thing I want to do on a vacation is think!
> 
> As for the stability, I agree with the dry bulk tanker from above. A 5er is way more work to get down the road then any semi. And many TT's are too.
> Carey


Just curious Carey, why do you feel it's so much work to tow a 5er? Usually the comments I see from people who've moved from a TT to a 5er is that the 5er is much more stable and easier to tow than the TT was. The one experience I've had helping my dad tow his 5er from Florida to Michigan a few years ago was a comfortable tow, no harder and possibly easier than the 23 ft. TT I had at the time. I suppose that could have been in part because my parents 5er is only a 30 footer, not one of the 35-40 ft. behemoths you're talking about. Obviously you have years of experience towing semis, so that gives you a different perspective than most people will have. Are you comparing towing a 5er to towing a semi, or to towing a TT?


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## GarethsDad (Apr 4, 2007)

Are you planning on down sizing when you lease is up? We were planning on a bigger TT but when you think of how much time that you really spend inside it just wasn't worth the expence. Seeing how most of our trip are to dog events, we spend most of the day outside unless its to hot out. We tend to gather a group under the awning while at shows. Now that we have a new puppy one day we might get that small 5er with lots of floor space but untill then we will stick with our first choice. James


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Camping Fan said:


> When I back under any 5er, my truckers cap goes on, because I have to think and act like a trucker while I tow any 5er. Im thankful I have 20 yrs experience being a trucker, because I couldnt imagine ever enjoying a vacation with a 5er. Those babies are work when you drive. You have to be thinking conatantly while towing. The last thing I want to do on a vacation is think!
> 
> As for the stability, I agree with the dry bulk tanker from above. A 5er is way more work to get down the road then any semi. And many TT's are too.
> Carey


Just curious Carey, why do you feel it's so much work to tow a 5er? Usually the comments I see from people who've moved from a TT to a 5er is that the 5er is much more stable and easier to tow than the TT was. The one experience I've had helping my dad tow his 5er from Florida to Michigan a few years ago was a comfortable tow, no harder and possibly easier than the 23 ft. TT I had at the time. I suppose that could have been in part because my parents 5er is only a 30 footer, not one of the 35-40 ft. behemoths you're talking about. Obviously you have years of experience towing semis, so that gives you a different perspective than most people will have. Are you comparing towing a 5er to towing a semi, or to towing a TT?
[/quote]

I tow a lot of 40-45 foot park models and those things are the very worst. Worse than any semi I have ever driven!

Next is a 40 foot toyhauler like a cyclone. The pin weight is extreme! and they lean over in the wind and scare the hell out of ya when the wind whips them. I have almost been flipped by winds in semis, but those 40 foot 5ers make me feel like I never knew the word scared. Yea for me its still fun, but respect is a huge word with those dudes. Again, worse than any semi I have ever driven.

Next would be a 35 foot plus high profile 5er. Some have horrible pin weights as they have the dang 5500 genny right in the nose. Something like Nathans ar like this Big Horn Im parked in front of right now. Its 37 foot long and 13+ tall on two axles... It needs 3 axles to make it tow like what we know 5er's tow like. But these dudes require every curve, and taking off ramps, just like I was in a semi. I have to watch every sign and make very quick thoughts in my head as I take it off the highway and go thru towns, such as looking for a walmart to go park in for the night.

Next would be the 33-40 foot TT's. The sway thing makes em suck, but they not as tall. About the same stress as a semi only because they are not as tall. But have less stability in the wind. Most are balanced well because mfrs want these to two decent becuase they know how the sway thing is. I have been amazed at some 35 foot TT's. Some tow wonderful. Yes tongue weights are in the 1500 range and my dually rides like a buck board, but they tow nice.

The rest are easier than a semi, but winds will still pucker you.

Next would be a 28-32 TT. Most times these are decent and tow decent. BUT the fuel milage is the same as a mid to low profile 5er. So why not just own a mid 5er. And believe it or not they dont handle winds as well as a mid 5er of the same length. I almost flipped a 31 foot north trail in Kansas just west of Salina this spring. I was in the right lane and the wind caught it and took it all the way off the road to the right. Yes a 5er would have been in trouble to, but I have no leverage to regain control with a 31 foot bumper pull like we have with a 31 foot 5er.

Next would be a mid profile 5er. These are basically heaven on wheels. PERFECT!

Next and I am in heaven because my dually hauls any 27 foot and smaller TT or 5er like its not even back there. I can drive easy and go where ever I please without worry. The shorter they get the more driving fun I have!


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Its hard for me to make what im saying be understood to people who havent towed those tall pro 5ers.

I have towed some mid pro 5ers that were horrible to, becuase they were heavy. I towed a 35 foot sundance that was terrible heavy I thought because it had every option and had 3 or 4 slides.

Its more the weight and lack of stability because the suspension is supple on rv's. One has to be more aware of this as the weight goes up. The taller they get the coach will lean and scare you more when in curves and taking off ramps. The suspension softness is carried to the truck when the winds blow.

The problem is the soft suspension combined with very tall height.

3 axle 5ers tow nice, even the cyclones. You can feel and see the difference with a 2 versus 3 axle 5er. The 3 axle tracks straight, but curves and wind is still a problem.

The whip a tall 35 foot 5er will give ya is just something one needs to experience for themselves. One must be always thinking about the height and the speed, and the turns, and the wind , weather, the curves, everything, unlike smaller mid pro 5ers and TT's. But again I almost crashed a 31 foot TT because I didnt respect it as much as a tall 5er. They can all crash you no matter the truck. I just needed a lil reminder.

Well I better get rolling as I was planning to make York, Ne tonight from the spot Im now sitting in Middlebury, In.

Carey


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Real quick.

Here is a pic of the Sundance 3100 ES I took to Sask. Canada. It weighed maybe 9000lbs. It was totally optioned out with cherry wood, flat panels and all. Prolly be low 40's. It towed like a dream, handles the wind well, and I got 12 mpg. I had the cruise set at 64 the whole trip. A guy could haul this baby 600 miles in a day without much stress. I still need me a trucker cap on cause of the height, which is about 12 foot.










---------------------------------

Now today, I have a Big Horn 3670RL loaded and optioned out. It prolly weighs 12k, maybe more. I will be darn lucky to get 10, as I have hauled a jillion of these and generally avg 9. I will have to drive 60-62 to get even 9. Prolly cost is 70-75k. I have to have my trucker cap on tight as Its much like any semi with it size and stability.

I have to be very careful in the wind, cause the thing will lean and whip around uncomfortably. I have to watch my height cause this baby is as tall as a semi. I have to totally respect this thing and watch the skys if I want to make 6-700 miles in a day. I will arrive needing to go to bed cause Im tired from the stress that bad boy put me thru.










---------------------------------

So which would the working guy like to own... ?

Yeah for most, the big retirement big horn. Are you gonna be going on relaxed long distance vacations and park at a different campground every night with a big horn................... Nope! Not as easy anyway. But when you get there, you will be as comfortable as home, cause this baby has it all. Its so comfortable, why move the thing a few hundred miles. Might as well stay at the one spot and enjoy its amenities.

The Sundance can be hauled 7-800 a day pretty easy, and can be moved all around easier too. A mid 5er fits the working guys needs of a 5er, but he doesnt look as professional out there on the highway.

I can take my kids on a walk and do a few family things, cause my head aint pounding from the stress that pretty retirement 5er put me thru.

Yeah, Im being a bit harsh, but this is the truth!

I am Whipped after a 700 mile day with a Big Horn I go right to bed. I am not near as stressed after a 700 mile day with a Sundance, I goof around at walmart, play on my computer, and do paper work. This is the truth.

Carey


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## Camping Fan (Dec 18, 2005)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> When I back under any 5er, my truckers cap goes on, because I have to think and act like a trucker while I tow any 5er. Im thankful I have 20 yrs experience being a trucker, because I couldnt imagine ever enjoying a vacation with a 5er. Those babies are work when you drive. You have to be thinking conatantly while towing. The last thing I want to do on a vacation is think!
> 
> As for the stability, I agree with the dry bulk tanker from above. A 5er is way more work to get down the road then any semi. And many TT's are too.
> Carey


Just curious Carey, why do you feel it's so much work to tow a 5er? Usually the comments I see from people who've moved from a TT to a 5er is that the 5er is much more stable and easier to tow than the TT was. The one experience I've had helping my dad tow his 5er from Florida to Michigan a few years ago was a comfortable tow, no harder and possibly easier than the 23 ft. TT I had at the time. I suppose that could have been in part because my parents 5er is only a 30 footer, not one of the 35-40 ft. behemoths you're talking about. Obviously you have years of experience towing semis, so that gives you a different perspective than most people will have. Are you comparing towing a 5er to towing a semi, or to towing a TT?
[/quote]

Next would be a mid profile 5er. These are basically heaven on wheels. PERFECT!

[/quote]

Which is what my parent's have, so that makes sense. Thanks for your observations Carey. Guess if I ever get 5er fever I'll be sticking with a 30-32 ft. mid-profile.


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## swanny (Oct 31, 2007)

I do agree with all the comments on tow mentioned here. The words of wisdom and first hand knowledge are priceless. Yes when I tow the stress level does go up. While going down the road watching, other motorist, bridges, branches, weather conditions, my speed, curves and my 5ver. When we tow shouldn't we all be doing this type of thing. When I tow my 38' fiver I'm focused on the task at hand, as we all should be. Just because you may be pulling a low profile TT does mean one can forget about all the other stuff mentioned. The only thing that is less of a worry is height. I may have it easier than a lot of people. When we travel it's just my wife and I. I don't have to be any place in a hurry. (retired) I only drive about 300 / 350 miles a day. Stress is all around us, whether your pulling a 5ver, TT or boat. Stress can be 4 or 5 people in a smaller unit with everything needed for a week or two. As mentioned I have stress finding places along the way to just pull in my 5ver will i fit. But, at the end of the day I love to have my home away from home, it lowers my stress level. And someday I hope to be able to park my 5ver somewhere in a place I love to be. My home away from home.

Remember never let your guard down, things can go bad in a hurry.


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

GarethsDad said:


> Are you planning on down sizing when you lease is up? We were planning on a bigger TT but when you think of how much time that you really spend inside it just wasn't worth the expence. Seeing how most of our trip are to dog events, we spend most of the day outside unless its to hot out. We tend to gather a group under the awning while at shows. Now that we have a new puppy one day we might get that small 5er with lots of floor space but untill then we will stick with our first choice. James


That is one of the options I'm leaving open. With today's weights any 5er requires a 3/4 or 1 ton. With tomorrows, who knows...
A short, truely lightweight TT doesn't require the Super duty and the only reason I have the truck is for the trailer....


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

This is a great topic, and it's going to be interesting to see how this question plays out over the coming years. When we bought our 28RSDS in '05 even it was bigger than we would have liked. A lot of the best camping around this area is in the national forests and the sites available there just were not built for the large trailers that dominate todays market.

At the time we were bouncing back and forth between the 26RS and 25RSS. One had the quad bunk room which was very desirable for us, and the other the side slide which really opens up the living space. When we finally decided we couldn't pick one over the other we bit the bullet and went with the 28RSDS and it has been a great choice for us.

Of course everybody has their own needs and desires, and I would never put any body down for whichever way they choose to go, but I really don't get the mega McMansions on wheels. They are beautiful, and I can see the allure, but to me they are not camping. Maybe if when Shannon and I get older and the kids are gone, the full-timer lifestyle will call to us and a rolling house will make sense, but for now it's a lot of size/weight/expense that would do little to enhance the experience we are after.

Getting back to Nathan's original thoughts, I think we will see a lot of downsizing. People are starting to look at things differently, and I think with a more critical eye than many of us did in the past. As we move through this societal shift, I think more and more we will see a change in attitude from 'Bigger is better' to 'Less is more'. I know for my part when the time for a change comes the priorities at the top of my list are going to be efficiency and cost-effectiveness and not how many bathrooms or square feet I can find a way to pull. And when considering that new RV, what it takes to pull it will be a huge part of that equation. I love my SuperDuty, but at this point I would love lower fuel bills and better maneuverability a lot more!

Anyway, as I said, it will be interesting to watch where the industry goes from here. And where the consumer forces it to go. My bet? Things are going to get smaller, lighter and more basic. What do you think?

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## vtxbud (Apr 4, 2009)

I moved up to a 35' 5er after 12 years towing a 24' TT.
That "little" 24'er I could whip around like no tomorrow. 65-70 MPH constant, no problems, no tire issues. Weight loaded, around 6400 lbs.
Towing with a Dodge 3/4 Cummins. Got pretty decent mileage too.

Enter the new toy....Now travel at 55 mph. Total weight on the road TV and 5er= 18,000 lbs. No more whippin' around, no more drivin' like I stole it.

Up side at 55 MPH. Arrive VERY relaxed. Mileage last trip 14.89 MPG, I figure not bad for the weight.
Little bit of wind= no problem. A lot /strong wind= time to pull over, better to lose a few hours than the unit.

My conclusion...this thing tow like a dream. Only thing I could do to improve would be to go to a 1 Ton, dual wheel.


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## N7OQ (Jun 10, 2006)

When I bought my trailer then one thing that was important to me was to be able to camp in the places I love. The 23RS fit that requirement well so when I bought the new truck I decided that I would not get caught up in the up grade thing because it would limit me in where I can camp. I do love the power my truck affords me and it makes it less stressful tow with all that power and handling. I have been asked when we plan to up grade to the big 5er but both the DW and I agree we like what we have and don't plan on changing. When my DS goes away to collage we might replace our TT with one that has a walk around bed and big windows in the back but for now we are happy.

Many of the campgrounds we go to fit us nicely but if I were to just add a few more feet it would limit the number of sites I could fit into. By changing the longer TV I have already limited myself some but it is worth it for the extra power and ease of handling. I have set in a campground and watched big 5ers come in then have to leave because they could not fit in any of the open sites.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

And thats the thing. Its all relative. If you are able to drive 3-350 miles a day size becomes less of an issue. If you can drive 55 and pull off when the winds pop up, then again size becomes a smaller issue.

If your like many and are like Nathan, he gets a set amount of time off. The drive between the home and destination area is one they want to get over with as soon as possible. Many will stay at there destination area and then push things to make that trec accross the country to get home.

I see this all the time. And there is nothing wrong with it. But having a super size rv behind does not blend well with being rushed.

There is a big, big difference between the high and mid 5ers, as well as a big difference between a 26-28 foot TT and a 32-35 foot TT. Its pretty much the same issue for TT's too.

And for sure were going lighter. I still wonder if we go smaller, but lighter is coming as we speak.

Take for instance this big horn. I deliver these with msrp's of high 40's to msrp's of mid 90's. The one I have today has a msrp of 79106. So its a mid level retirement coach.

There is a 3-4000lb weight difference between the basic and loaded model.

With any mfr one can order the shiney sides and the fancy wheels and look just like that full time coach rolling down the road. I know the outbacks are pretty much all the same, but when going to models above the outback line, one has many options they can choose.

Here is another good lil story I see all the time. A base msrp on a big horn is like 48k if its bought close to Indiana. The dealers will order wheels, shiney sides, and a cherry interior. They will sell these for 48k and they will have an msrp of 55-58k. They will tell the customer they are getting a retirement 5er and sell them that big horn for 48k. In reality is a base model with the popular options to make it appear that its a full time model. But in reality its a vacationeer model.

I have learned that full timers buy on options and quality and vacationeers will buy on price and apperance.

If one does some research they will find that all rv's are really priced very close to the same with any mfr.

If one was to special order based on weight they can get one of these down into the 10,000 lb range, but if one goes all out, they can be in the 13500-14000 empty weight range. Its incredible the amount of options and different ways one can build these rigs.

So my point here is, is one can order a light weight model that works better for vacations, but from the outside looks just like a loaded full time coach.

I know the Sundance is the same way. And Keystone also does this with there 5ers lines just above the Outback line. The outback line is soley targeted at vacationeers, and Keystone has done an excellent job at that because the Outback line is the close to being the number 1 vacation rv in the entire rv market.

But one can move into the higher lines and still be in the same weight range as an Outback 5er and look as if you are pulling an expensive full time type coach.

I dont care what anyone says, much of rving is based on looks, and status. This is every bit as important as price for us. There is nothing wrong with that. Prolly 95% of all rver's are the vacation type.

Now when we get older and the kids move out, we will research based on quality, features and longevity with items like appliances and trailer construction, such as r values, dual and triple pane windows, etc.

So I just wanted to let you all know there are many ways to skin the cat here and the lines that allow one to build a model based on needs should be looked at when going to upgrade.

Carey


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Here is another great story for you guys. I got some extra time today anyway cause my log book is about full. I was gonna have to limp tomorrow, but I can do it today instead of tomorrow, so here goes.

A few weeks back I pull into Goshen about 1pm mtn time. My dispatacher had 2 big horns going to Pa. One was a 400 mile trip and one was like a 450 mile trip. I said Id do em both.

Both were model 3670 rl's same as the one I have now.

I hooked up to the 1st one and I seen it was a very basic model. I looked at the paperwork and seen it had a msrp of 50500. I hooked onto it and blazed it to pa that night. When I got back to indy the next day, I filled my tanks. I got 13.89 mpg at 65mph. No winds and good traffic accross the tollways. I noticed it was lighter than most big horns, and it towed easy.

I hooked up to the next one and it was a special order with a msrp of 91800. The thing was just beautiful. I looked on the paper work and this rig had it all. Oh and by the way it as as heavy as they get.. My lil cummins worked its lil you know what off.

I again blazed to Pa that same day at 65 mph. Well, next day I filled my tanks back in indy and my mpgs were 11.03. Same conditions.

This was round trip miles and I hauled butt back to Indy both trips as I had trailers waiting to go.

So guys what mpg you get with your rig means everything to you and nothing to me.

I have seen this happen many times. One trailer is very heavy and the next is very light, but both are the same size and my mpg varies 2 or more mpgs between them.

Another good point for Canadians here.

Your dealers order trailers in the mid and high lines with many more options to keep you guys warm. They order 2 and 3 pane windows, artic insulation packages upgraded water heater and upgraded furnaces.

Then you guys see trailers down in the US that are way cheaper than the ones on canadien lots. So you come down and buy one.

Now you go camping in late september, and lets say it gets down to 10 degrees that night.

There you are freezing your butt off and listening to your heater work overtime to heat your rv.

Your canadian neighbor beside you has the same model that was bought and spec'd for Canada. he is toasty warm and his heater only comes on every now and then. And when it does come on, its very quiet as its an upgraded furnace.

So a word of warning canadian guys. Be sure to research a trailer for sale in the USA that has the exact same arctic options you guys really need up there. You will find that most rv's on US dealer lots have single pane windows with basic insulation packages, and basic furnaces. Our cold weather models need to be special order for the most part.

I can tell you that there is quite a price difference between you alls rvs and our rvs for this very reason.

Ok I will go drive some till I think of another story, lol

Carey


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## Tyvekcat (Aug 28, 2007)

Yeah, I never really thought we needed a big camper. This 21RS we own now was way bigger than the old Shasta my family had back in dinosaur days when I was a kid. It was awesome back then. Me and my brother played board games at night or read books. My old man had a Channel Master radio, he always took. You got music on AM later at night in those days. There was a bathroom and shower in 18 feet.

So when me and DW went looking we had a small budget. We found a 21RS that was less than a year old, used only 3 times. We have had it over two and a half years now, and never really thought about getting anything bigger. Our cat goes always goes and sometimes our niece goes with us. Now she does ask where the TV is sometimes. We break out the games, cards or make smores by the campfire. She hasn't been snipe hunting yet.







Don't need no stinkin TV.









We take that 21RS to primitive NPS sites, state parks. Its very easy to tow. Wouldn't trade it for anything right now. DW always wants a Outback 'Sydney edition' everytime we go to Camper World in Roanoke. But I always ask her where are we going to park that monster?

I guess it all about what your goal is. To be entertained, or more woods, nature, less traveled sites, relax and view rural America. Been to Northern Virginia, and don't need that.

I guess what I am trying to say, Nathan, is you have tried the larger trailers and the smaller ones. Maybe you prefer the simpler camper way better. Its all good. You don't have to keep up with the 'Joneses' to use a worn out phrase. ( and certainly no offense to anyone with last name of Jones) I have a very good friend named Jones.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

What ever you do Nathan, dont end up like this combo that passed me west of Chicago on I 80 today. They were running 73 mph in a 55 zone with a big family prolly 4-5 kids with no wd/sway bars at all. There Armada was draggin its tail. It was downsized but Id rather be inside of your pickup with a monster 5er than this highly safe combo.

Sorry for the bad pic quality. I had to shoot quick! I didnt have time to move my mileage booklet I keep for our IRS sweethearts.



















Carey

ps. I just noticed there trailer has no liscense plate. lol Maybe it was stolen, cause they were sure driving it that way! hehe!

Well after thinking a minute.. That trailer is a Layton Nomad. Who in there right mind would steal one of those? ! lol


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Carey, that doesn't look short or light!


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Its a whole lot shorter and lighter than yours.









I was just pointing out that putting a family in an suv, then trying to pull a trailer can make for problems. Even if that Armada had all of the correct hitching products, it still would be dragging its tail with that many people in that rig.

Do you really think a Flex can hold a family plus handle the tongue weight of a trailer. I had several pass me, I got to wondering. Then all of the sudden that Armada passed me, and It made me really wonder If what your thinking is really possible with a family.

Carey


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Its a whole lot shorter and lighter than yours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, good point on the comparison....









The Payload on a Flex is ~1160lbs. That means you need a lightweight family and a lightweight trailer. Buy, let's say right now my family weighs ~450 lbs (Carseats included). That would indicate that if you stayed below the 500 lb max toungeweight, you would still have 200 lbs of cargo capacity left. I think that's more than the remaining capacity most have with their 1/2 tons and a 28' OB









Obviously with a bigger family it would be a no go for anything more than a pop up. Of course if you had a way to support say 300 lbs of the tounge weight







, then it would be pretty easy to haul a family of 4 some cargo, and a lightweight, aerodynamic trailer. I wonder where you could find something like that? 
I'm not endorsing the combo, just thinking more outside the box of what the future could hold.


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## mountainlady56 (Feb 13, 2006)

Nathan,
For now, with your kids the age they are, the 22'er would be fine. I remember some of my best days camping were spent in 16' Lil Beaver and Scotty campers. My grandparents owned 2 Lil Beavers (can you say "no airconditioning" and "dry camping" in S & N GA?? LOL) and a Scotty, that I "grew up" camping in, and me and my first husband owned a 16' Scotty.
During the time with my grandparents, it was the greatest!! Campfires were the rule of the evening, and we sat around with coffee and/or hot chocolate, and roasting marshmallows or weiners. No lites on inside the camper, unless necessary, as it would "draw the mosquitoes" and heat the camper up, during the summer.
When my oldest son was around 6, we did carry the Nintendo, in case of bad weather, plus he had asthma, and if it flared up, he had to stay inside alot, during the blooming season. But, for the most part, the Nintendo stayed put up, and we enjoyed the outdoors.
I've done tent camping, on up. Now, I have the motorhome, and, since I "plowed a row" backing it into my driveway in the beautiful, HARD GA mtn. clay, sure do miss something smaller. But, with the issue of privacy with me and my 15 yr. old son, size of the unit does come into play, unfortunately.
Prior to purchasing said motorhome, I was looking at the very lightweight RVs, such as Xtreme, etc., but with said 15-yr-old reaching close to 6' tall, 74" bunk beds are out!
My advice? Enjoy the fuel efficiency, the cost-effectiveness, and what you prefer, as long as you can. Going full-circle isn't a bad thing. Sometimes, starting where you began is where you prefer to be. Bigger isn't always better!!
Happy camping!!
Darlene


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Nathan said:


> Its a whole lot shorter and lighter than yours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, good point on the comparison....









The Payload on a Flex is ~1160lbs. That means you need a lightweight family and a lightweight trailer. Buy, let's say right now my family weighs ~450 lbs (Carseats included). That would indicate that if you stayed below the 500 lb max toungeweight, you would still have 200 lbs of cargo capacity left. I think that's more than the remaining capacity most have with their 1/2 tons and a 28' OB









Obviously with a bigger family it would be a no go for anything more than a pop up. Of course if you had a way to support say 300 lbs of the tounge weight







, then it would be pretty easy to haul a family of 4 some cargo, and a lightweight, aerodynamic trailer. I wonder where you could find something like that? 
I'm not endorsing the combo, just thinking more outside the box of what the future could hold.
[/quote]

lol.. No, i understand.

Its just that an f150 suspension is much more taunt. Once a car approches its max payload its butt falls on the ground. Like shown on the armada above.

Yea I pondered on that all day yesterday. Everytime I seen a flex go by all me thoughts would start over again. I did see one flex with a car carrier with prolly 3 kids in it and the rear compartment nearly full. It looked to be handling it pretty well.

Yea I would build you special lightweight version for your rig. Be sure to send me a ford flex wheel so I can make it match. ok, lol I will make you a single tire version. Hmm. I think we will put the wheel on the right side. You will be passing more than being passed. lol

But seriously. I think you would defiantly need some help, because I cant help to think as that flex approaches payload its butt will get squishy.

I think the weight wouldnt even be a problem for the powertrain. Its the normal tail weight problem that always gets us.

Yea you and I need to put our heads together and change the world!

Carey


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

mountainlady56 said:


> Nathan,
> For now, with your kids the age they are, the 22'er would be fine. I remember some of my best days camping were spent in 16' Lil Beaver and Scotty campers. My grandparents owned 2 Lil Beavers (can you say "no airconditioning" and "dry camping" in S & N GA?? LOL) and a Scotty, that I "grew up" camping in, and me and my first husband owned a 16' Scotty.
> I've done tent camping, on up. Now, I have the motorhome, and, since I "plowed a row" backing it into my driveway in the beautiful, HARD GA mtn. clay, sure do miss something smaller. But, with the issue of privacy with me and my 15 yr. old son, size of the unit does come into play, unfortunately.
> Prior to purchasing said motorhome, I was looking at the very lightweight RVs, such as Xtreme, etc., but with said 15-yr-old reaching close to 6' tall, 74" bunk beds are out!
> ...


You know I see so many posts like this. And for me to the best memories were when mom and dad had a 16 foot shasta. Maybe we are supposed to camp this way as it sticks in kids heads. Who knows, but I couldnt count all the posts Ive seen here saying the best memories where when our moms and dads had small trailers.

Carey


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## clarkely (Sep 15, 2008)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Nathan,
> For now, with your kids the age they are, the 22'er would be fine. I remember some of my best days camping were spent in 16' Lil Beaver and Scotty campers. My grandparents owned 2 Lil Beavers (can you say "no airconditioning" and "dry camping" in S & N GA?? LOL) and a Scotty, that I "grew up" camping in, and me and my first husband owned a 16' Scotty.
> I've done tent camping, on up. Now, I have the motorhome, and, since I "plowed a row" backing it into my driveway in the beautiful, HARD GA mtn. clay, sure do miss something smaller. But, with the issue of privacy with me and my 15 yr. old son, size of the unit does come into play, unfortunately.
> Prior to purchasing said motorhome, I was looking at the very lightweight RVs, such as Xtreme, etc., but with said 15-yr-old reaching close to 6' tall, 74" bunk beds are out!
> ...


You know I see so many posts like this. And for me to the best memories were when mom and dad had a 16 foot shasta. Maybe we are supposed to camp this way as it sticks in kids heads. Who knows, but I couldnt count all the posts Ive seen here saying the best memories where when our moms and dads had small trailers.

Carey
[/quote]

Everything in life goes in a cycle........ the Vw Bug was the thing!! Then we moved to bigger and bigger.......Monster Trucks, Monster Homes.....then we downsize........

It is good food for thought!!


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## puffer (Aug 28, 2008)

Go big or go home.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

puffer said:


> Go big or go home.


LMAO!


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Its just that an f150 suspension is much more taunt. Once a car approches its max payload its butt falls on the ground. Like shown on the armada above.


Yeah, car suspensions do have their downside. When we had the minivan/pop up combo, we used airbags to firm things up. I don't want to get too hung up on that vehicle.... I just used it as an example


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Nathan said:


> Its just that an f150 suspension is much more taunt. Once a car approches its max payload its butt falls on the ground. Like shown on the armada above.


Yeah, car suspensions do have their downside. When we had the minivan/pop up combo, we used airbags to firm things up. I don't want to get too hung up on that vehicle.... I just used it as an example
[/quote]

No I understand. Your thoughts are good ones though. I will keep my eyes peeled for people towing with that size car and shoot a pic if I see something like what you are thinking. I talked to a couple with a rav 4 towing a 19 foot edge and they were happier than ever. They were just heading out on a 9 moth trip. They went all the down from something you have to this and said it was the best thing they ever done.

Carey


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Its just that an f150 suspension is much more taunt. Once a car approches its max payload its butt falls on the ground. Like shown on the armada above.


Yeah, car suspensions do have their downside. When we had the minivan/pop up combo, we used airbags to firm things up. I don't want to get too hung up on that vehicle.... I just used it as an example
[/quote]

No I understand. Your thoughts are good ones though. I will keep my eyes peeled for people towing with that size car and shoot a pic if I see something like what you are thinking. I talked to a couple with a rav 4 towing a 19 foot edge and they were happier than ever. They were just heading out on a 9 moth trip. They went all the down from something you have to this and said it was the best thing they ever done.

Carey
[/quote]
Yeah, I haven't seen any yet either. I see a lot of misize SUV's towing way more than they should. I'm not a big fan of midsize (or small) SUV suspensions because they just feel downright unstable. The lower car based crossovers tend to feel a LOT more stable in handling. Silly setups reminds me that I have a picture to post for everyone's amusement.







Maybe when I get home tonight.....


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## 5th Time Around (Jul 8, 2008)

So this is interesting reading. I gotta say, been there done that, except for the pop up. We now have a 31FKW (which is actually total length of 35 feet) fifth wheel. I guess it is mid profile as we are 12 foot and we weigh just under 9000 dry. The length has not been so much a problem in Florida State Parks or Georgia. I have never tried the NPS so I can't answer. For us, we like the size of our fiver, and being an Outback it is really more of a camper than a home, a fiver with no frills, not afraid to get it dirty. With that said, we have 2 adults, 2 teens, 2 dogs and sometimes 2 - 4 relatives or friends travel with us. We really love the room that we have now. It is whatever works for you.

The biggest issue we have is our Crew Cab trucks wheelbase! It is hard to back into some sights. But my DH gets 16 mpg around town, and we get 11 towing. It is acceptable to us because my minivan rarely saw 16 mpg in town.

Sure we go to the shows, and ooh and ahhh over all the luxuries, but we aren't looking for another home. I know that the height on those big fivers would restrict even more camping.

Just my .02


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## Sayonara (Jul 23, 2007)

Good discussion. We are starting to prepare for a change in the next year and are thinking a lot of the same things. We are not automatically leaning towards something bigger just something more comfortable for the few 2000+ mile long trips we do each year.

We have traveled with the 32BHDS around 12k + miles so far and dont have any complaints. I have had a couple difficult "docking" situations with tight sights but hey, it adds to the excitement. and the family enjoys watching/helping.

We really like the Sundance and Outback 320FBH front bunk room 5er models...lower weight and height than the originally planned Raptor we fell in love with. on the OB 320FBH I would like it if they also had a bunk above the sofa in the bunkroom but think i could add one if i had to. But we are also looking closely at the bunkhouse (or standard) Class As.

We returned this weeekend from a week at Myrtle Beach and drove 850 miles in 1 day to get there and the same to get back. we left at 3 am. Kids handled it wonderfully, the truck ran perfectly, and the ProPride 3P is incredible at keeping everything smooth and motion-free. BUT we could not help thinking about the comfort of traveling in a Class A. We are thinking we will rent one for our next trip to give it a try.

I think your doing the right thing by thinking things through. You havnt done anything wrong, just living and learning....as we all do. keep it up and enjoy the ride.


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

OK, I've stayed out of this conversation because, even though I've had some of these thoughts from time to time, I didn't think this topic was that big a deal. Apparently a lot of people wrestle with this at least a little.

My wife has to have A/C - medical issues where she just has to be cool sometimes. And I absolutely can't sleep on those dog day nights of hot humid stagnant air. No way am I going back to putting away a pop-up in the rain.

But the kids _do_ love camping in a tent, and there's something about it that feels more connected to nature. So, my plan is to combine the best of both worlds. On our recent week vacation, we also packed the tent, sleeping bags etc. with us. The plan was that on a few of the nights I'd take a few kids go do some state or national forest camping, while the DW stayed back at the "home base". Unfortunately, it rained on the nights where it would have worked out, so we never got to do it. In some areas, you'd literally be able to walk out of the campground and hike off into the woods.

Here's the thing. It seems to me that the biggest hassle with tent camping isn't really from setting it up and sleeping in a tent compared to a trailer. It's trying to do that for a week straight, and trying to keep from being miserable if it rains, etc. Doing a one-nighter where there's reduced packing and meals to deal with is not really a problem and is actually quite a blast.

So, that's _my_ ramblings about the conclusions I've come to.


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Sayonara said:


> Good discussion. We are starting to prepare for a change in the next year and are thinking a lot of the same things. We are not automatically leaning towards something bigger just something more comfortable for the few 2000+ mile long trips we do each year.
> 
> .....
> 
> I think your doing the right thing by thinking things through. You havnt done anything wrong, just living and learning....as we all do. keep it up and enjoy the ride.


I agree, this has been interesting to hear the variety of responses. I basically posted it as a thought starter for everyone, espeically since we tend to get caught up in seeing pictures of all those big new shiny rigs!


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

BoaterDan said:


> OK, I've stayed out of this conversation because, even though I've had some of these thoughts from time to time, I didn't think this topic was that big a deal. Apparently a lot of people wrestle with this at least a little.
> 
> My wife has to have A/C - medical issues where she just has to be cool sometimes. And I absolutely can't sleep on those dog day nights of hot humid stagnant air. No way am I going back to putting away a pop-up in the rain.
> 
> ...


We done alot of tent camping in Colorado back when I had a tricked out 4x4 truck. We would crawl way up and camp in some remote area.

We got sick of hearing things just outside of our tent. One night we were at about 10k elev, and a bear was maybe 20 feet from our tent at 3am. He was grunting and begining to show his colors. I got up and fired a few shots and he high tailed it. But man I was sick of sleeping with one eye open. One other night a cougar hasled us, and one night we were sitting around the campfire a pack of coyotes circled us and started making growls to each other.

We finally decided that Colorado isnt a place to do tenting.

Carey


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

5th Time Around said:


> So this is interesting reading. I gotta say, been there done that, except for the pop up. We now have a 31FKW (which is actually total length of 35 feet) fifth wheel. I guess it is mid profile as we are 12 foot and we weigh just under 9000 dry. The length has not been so much a problem in Florida State Parks or Georgia. I have never tried the NPS so I can't answer. For us, we like the size of our fiver, and being an Outback it is really more of a camper than a home, a fiver with no frills, not afraid to get it dirty. With that said, we have 2 adults, 2 teens, 2 dogs and sometimes 2 - 4 relatives or friends travel with us. We really love the room that we have now. It is whatever works for you.
> 
> The biggest issue we have is our Crew Cab trucks wheelbase! It is hard to back into some sights. But my DH gets 16 mpg around town, and we get 11 towing. It is acceptable to us because my minivan rarely saw 16 mpg in town.
> 
> ...


Yep what you have is my favorite 5er. I used to think bigger is only better, but if I ever get one, what you have is what I would be intersted in after learning how delicate it is to manuever these monsters around.

Carey


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## Silvrsled (Jul 24, 2008)

We decided on a 21rs because it's just DW, DS and me, so the size works well. I keep looking at a small 5th wheel, surveyor has a nice 26' with bunks, but when it boils down to it, the overall length would make it hard to get in and out of spots. We were camping up at a new campground about 2 months ago. The road was pretty tight and getting our rig in was pretty tough. If we were a few feet longer, there would have been no way to do it. So while I ogle the big 5th wheels, i don't think we'll move up from what we have for a long time.


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## 'Ohana (May 20, 2007)

Seeing as you already have the truck







here's yet another thought to ponder and or option to someday consider









http://www.lancecamper.com/home/index.html

Ed


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## SouthLa26RS (Jul 10, 2006)

A few more items to consider on bigger TT's....Storage--where are you going to store that monster. Insurance--bigger usually means higher cost for insurance. Up keep--the bigger the TT the more effort and time spent washing and waxing.


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

'Ohana said:


> Seeing as you already have the truck
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You really need a long bed dually to handle one of decent size. When we briefly discussed Motorhomes, this one came up: 








Host Camper Super C

4WD, plenty of room, and seats for everyone.

Pretty pricey and big again....


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

lol I talked to a guy with a flex today at a rest area. I bet he had a good 800lbs in it. They were from Mass, and heading to Colorado. It was 2 younger couples.

I ask him how it rode with all the weight and he went to the back bumper and gave it a shove, lol so I did too.

All I can say, is I was impressed. I think that flex would haul a light trailer with no problems. It sure is a cool lil car. Its tougher than it looks.

Carey


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## clarkely (Sep 15, 2008)

Nathan said:


> Seeing as you already have the truck
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You really need a long bed dually to handle one of decent size. When we briefly discussed Motorhomes, this one came up: 








Host Camper Super C

4WD, plenty of room, and seats for everyone.

Pretty pricey and big again....








[/quote]

Erra..........that 330 Quad slide is looking pretty Sweet!!.......but still BIG.......I did not see anything on Weight or how much it can tow .....


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## 1jeep (Jul 24, 2007)

Where does it end, this i have asked myself all summer as i comtemplated the purchase of yet another bigger truck. Nathan you are not alone! I am honestly tired of trying to find campspots big enough for that 32' trailer, never mind the 40' 5er my parents have that apparently cant camp anywhere but an open field.

So, my other issue is this year my daughter got her license and now spends even less time with her parents. This may put our camping future into a smaller unit, but only time will tell, im not sure if my wife could downsize as she can barely recall sleeping in a tent.


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## camping479 (Aug 27, 2003)

we've gone back and forth about whether to go bigger so many times I've lost count. one nice thing about towing a smaller trailer with a stout truck is the lack of stress, very easy to tow and maneuvering into tight spots is a breeze. As of today







we plan on keeping our 21, it's tight for the 4 of us but soon it will be only 2 of us and should be plenty......fo now.

Mike


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## BigBadBrain (Aug 26, 2004)

I found this thread very interesting to read. I have a different but related issue - I'm going to need to do something regarding my setup and I'm not even sure how to think about it.

My TV is getting a little older and I notice more and more that it isn't as suitable for towing the 23rs as it once was. I still tow sway free but I'm worried we'll get to the middle of nowhere and drop the tranny - the Expedition never really lived up to my idea of a good towing vehicle (hey, I never thought I'd buy a TT when I bought it). So, a new TV or SOMETHING is in my near future if I want to keep camping.

Another factor - my DS is now a Senior in HS, my DD is a Senior in college and within a year we will be a couple again rather than a family of four. I suspect that the opportunities for travel with our kids in the future will be of the nature of going to visit them wherever they are at the moment rather than packing up and going camping. This may seem like a relatively minor change for those of you with young kids but it is kind of terrifying to think about what life will be like when kids become independent. All kinds of things start to look odd - even the size of your house starts to cause you to think. So the impact on camping - it makes us wonder if we want to stay with the TT or do something else.

Options we are thinking about:
Keep the Outback and get a new, bigger TV. (oddly, this is likely the most expensive option)
Go shopping for a used motor home that will fit us as a couple - likely a shorter (24ft or so) class C. (this option is aimed at giving us freedom to camp anywhere)
Consider a used 30ft class A that can tow DW's car. (this option is aimed at travel rather than mostly camping)
Give up the RV and buy a cabin or piece of land suitable for building a cabin. (this option definitely ends towing issues but makes it hard to move to a new campsite)

Factors:
Will we stay in our current house or consider downsizing?
If we move, how far and to what kind of environment? (will I still need remote RV storage?)
Still have 12-15 years before it will be affordable to retire.
What will DW allow? (how is it that she always has veto power over EVERYTHING?)
Will driving a motor home bring more or fewer issues to travel/camping that make us less likely to use it?
Will the Mariners ever have another winning season? (OK, this isn't a huge factor in this decision but it is a major worry I carry around with me.) (OK, maybe not a MAJOR worry.)

BBB


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## rmeyer (Sep 28, 2006)

Wow! After a trip this weekend, I have been considering these same issues. We tent camped, moved to a pop-up and then to the Outback. We love it, but our needs are changing. We still like to camp in parks, but our daughter wants to play college soccer. Recently, with club soccer we are using the Outback more and more to go to tournaments. If the daughter gets to play college soccer, that would mean even more soccer trips. (we don't want to miss many games) It would mean much longer trips and sometimes camping in stadium parking lots, etc. We like to take the pets, so hotel rooms would be problematic.

We discussed getting a generator and using the Outback. Carey's rig makes towing much easier, but long trips for college soccer games would still wear me out pulling the Outback. I can't relax and drive with that big rig behind me. You do always have to worry about stopping distance, speed on curves, rough roads, will that car cut in front of me and suddenly turn, etc. If you ever do relax, a big gust of wind broadsides will remind you to pay attention.

We would have to upgrade to a much larger tow vehicle to be comfortable on long trips. But, that would cost almost as much or more thatn a smaller used motorhome. I was thinking of a small, 30 foot or less motorhome. I have no experience with them and don't know how hard to drive one of those would be, but it would have to be better than this TT. Plus a motorhome with a built in generator would be ideal to set up in a parking lot.

The DW is not yet convinced, but she doesn't have to drive it!


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## Airboss (Jul 14, 2007)

I've been listening to this discussion for a while trying to decide if it really applied to us. From what I've heard, and from what I've experienced, I can't help but wonder if I shouldn't just sell the truck and TT and buy a cabin in the woods. Honestly, camping with a rig (I don't care if you hav a 21RS or a 40" 5er) is a hastle. Cleaning, maintenance, insurance, the upgrades, etc. is starting to feel like the whole experience just isn't worth it.

I really feel as though a 'get away' is what I really want. Thanks, Nathan, for helping me put things in perspective.

Anyone want a gently used, highly modified, 25RS-S?


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## 1jeep (Jul 24, 2007)

BigBadBrain said:


> I found this thread very interesting to read. I have a different but related issue - I'm going to need to do something regarding my setup and I'm not even sure how to think about it.
> 
> My TV is getting a little older and I notice more and more that it isn't as suitable for towing the 23rs as it once was. I still tow sway free but I'm worried we'll get to the middle of nowhere and drop the tranny - the Expedition never really lived up to my idea of a good towing vehicle (hey, I never thought I'd buy a TT when I bought it). So, a new TV or SOMETHING is in my near future if I want to keep camping.
> 
> ...


Well BBB, aside from the last item it appears you and i share the same questions. My daughter is a HS junior and already told us today that she wont be going in october with us, i really wont need a big camper for the wife and i.

What will the future bring.....


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

Airboss said:


> I've been listening to this discussion for a while trying to decide if it really applied to us. From what I've heard, and from what I've experienced, I can't help but wonder if I shouldn't just sell the truck and TT and buy a cabin in the woods. Honestly, camping with a rig (I don't care if you hav a 21RS or a 40" 5er) is a hastle. Cleaning, maintenance, insurance, the upgrades, etc. is starting to feel like the whole experience just isn't worth it.
> 
> I really feel as though a 'get away' is what I really want. Thanks, Nathan, for helping me put things in perspective.
> 
> Anyone want a gently used, highly modified, 25RS-S?


What is your price? Buddy of mine might be in the market. He is looking at the 2010 250RS...with the King Bed, but he might reconsider if the price is right.


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## Airboss (Jul 14, 2007)

Oregon_Camper said:


> I've been listening to this discussion for a while trying to decide if it really applied to us. From what I've heard, and from what I've experienced, I can't help but wonder if I shouldn't just sell the truck and TT and buy a cabin in the woods. Honestly, camping with a rig (I don't care if you hav a 21RS or a 40" 5er) is a hastle. Cleaning, maintenance, insurance, the upgrades, etc. is starting to feel like the whole experience just isn't worth it.
> 
> I really feel as though a 'get away' is what I really want. Thanks, Nathan, for helping me put things in perspective.
> 
> Anyone want a gently used, highly modified, 25RS-S?


What is your price? Buddy of mine might be in the market. He is looking at the 2010 250RS...with the King Bed, but he might reconsider if the price is right.
[/quote]

$16.5k nego. Well, barely negotaible. I still have a $17k payoff.

I know that I should hold out to spring when people are 'really' looking, but it we've really done a lot of nice upgrades.


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## 'Ohana (May 20, 2007)

Again, this is all very interesting and Nathan is right. When do you say when? When is big enough or too big? It goes even further than size of TT. I believe that a lot of us are now feeling the effects of kids either going off to college or busy in school. It's that time of the year. Our DD is in high school marching band. A very competitive marching band that is taking every weekend from now until November 27. So we are done camping until the Sunday after Thanksgiving and are going to do some winter camping so that we feel we didn't lose so much of the camping season. We love camping and made so many friendships with outbackers.com folks and others that I never want to give up camping. We would not be able to afford all the places we go in one year if we stayed in hotels. The beach, amusement parks, etc. Add to that we couldn't bring our beloved dog, Rudolph. Like many we are seeing what it's like to be a couple again (oh, my... sorry, Ed







). I am very grateful to even own a TT. I'm sure we'll make a change sometime down the road but we'll try to give each move careful consideration and make camping fun and not stressful. Thanks for posting this, Nathan, as it is eye-opening and thought provoking.

Hope


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## 5th Time Around (Jul 8, 2008)

To solve the dilema of not enough space for too many kids and dogs, can I trade in my kids and dogs (gently used, not many mods)????









I wonder what I could get for a husband that is handy


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

clarkely said:


> Erra..........that 330 Quad slide is looking pretty Sweet!!.......but still BIG.......I did not see anything on Weight or how much it can tow .....


16+k empty
I think 19k gvwr and 10K towing. Not small, light, or cheap.


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## OregonCampin (Mar 9, 2007)

This is a fun conversation. Nathan - I have to say, this is exactly why we have never upgraded. We dry camp in the middle of no where... anything bigger just would not fit where we like to go. The few feet between the short box F350 and the long box F250 caused a few hassles.


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

So, just to stir the pot, will this be a future scene at the campgrounds???


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## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

You bet - Flex will be a great seller and families will pull up to their campers parked on their seasonal spots all the time!

-CC


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

collinsfam_tx said:


> You bet - Flex will be a great seller and families will pull up to their campers parked on their seasonal spots all the time!
> 
> -CC


Are you saying I shouldn't tow a 35' trailer with it?


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

In case any was wondering the exact specs on this Big Horn. Its 43 feet long nose to tail, but is sold as a 37. Thats pretty normal. It weighs 10700 on the trailer axles and has 2300lbs of pin weight, making it weigh exactly 13000lbs. My combo weighs 23000lbs. So 13000 is dry weight, so one would expect it to weigh 14000 easy. This 5er needs a F450/4500 to pull it in the tow vehicles specs. My dually is about 4-500 over its gvwr and this trailer is empty.

I fueled in Cheyenne and I got 11.1mpg at 60 mph. Thats really great mpg accross the plains. I had great conditions. I topped off at Evanston, Wy and my mpg was 10.2. I had alot of wind accross Wyoming and you bet, it was a handful.

This trailer has G rated radials and they use 110 psi and hold like 5000lbs each if I remember right. So the trailer tires are in about 1/2 there rating with 10700 on them.

Im glad I can drop this baby off at the dealer tomorrow and let someone else deal with pulling it. Yea 2000 miles is enough for me.

My mom and dad have camped since the late 60's. They started with a 16 foot Shasta, and then grew as us kids grew to a 30 foot Jayco TT. After all of us kids moved out, they continued to grow in rv size up to a 36 5er.

My dad said trailers are just too big to pull that size, so they traded the whole works off for a double L LLoaded 38 foot class A. They kept that about 5-6 years and full timed in it for about 2 years. They decided they didnt like full timing anymore, so they bought a lil house on a canal that leads into the gulf in Rockport, Tx. They then got a class B and had that a few years. Then they decided they still like taking long summer tips, and now have a 25 class C with a big slide in it.

I seen my parents a few weeks back, and they said they love there lil C and will keep it a good while. They are pushing 70 and still go camping all the time. And take a 2-3 month long summer trip.

I laughed and said, yeah right!

So Nathan, I only mentioned the major models that they had for more than a year. There was prolly another 10 rv's they owned less than a year of the last 40 years.

Just wanted to let you know, you are not even close to being alone. I have watched my parents go up in size, then down, then up and then down, now they say they are perfect, but they have said that a good 10 times before.. lol

Carey


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## BigBadBrain (Aug 26, 2004)

Wow Carey, your folks sound like mine except my folks did that with houses. They've owned 14 since I was born (that would be approximately 50 years, ahem).

Nathan, what has this thread done for your quandary? Any help in figuring out what to do next? Clearly it seems to be a 'different strokes for different folks' kind of thing.

Time also has an effect as we get older our needs and desires change and that causes a shift in our RV needs and wants.

Mid 20s - tent camping in Yellowstone with my new bride.

Mid 30s - dry camping with two small kids a bare (and I mean BARE) bones camper shell on a half ton Ford. (I miss that camper - a semi tractor took it and my truck and almost me away from us).

Mid 40s - short fifth wheel with two teens behind 3/4 ton Ford

Early 50s - Small Outback with two or one or no grown kids behind a 1/2 ton Ford SUV

Mid/late 50s - ?


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

BigBadBrain said:


> ...
> Nathan, what has this thread done for your quandary? Any help in figuring out what to do next? Clearly it seems to be a 'different strokes for different folks' kind of thing.
> 
> ...


Acutally I have really enjoyed hearing all of the different opinions. I was a little suprised at the number of people who admitted to having similar thoughts, but that just confirmed that I'm not crazy (or at least if I am, I have company







). Of course I realize that what's right for *us* is what *we* need to find. I really don't have a clue as to what is next. We agreed to visit the trailer shows in the future and review what's there. Eventually, we'll have to get in some of these different models to determine what we really need vs what things are nice to have. Meanwhile, we'll watch trailer development and Car/Truck development over the next year and see if the available options change. Really, there are a million variables out there that I can't predict right now. Some final things to look at just beofre making the move will include the economics of the equation including our income, and truck and fuel prices in 1.5 years. About the only thing that I can count on is my desire to see the country with my family and spend quality time together while doing that. I'm also not a fan of hoteling it, so I would imagine we'll have a camping rig of some-sort.

You know, when thinking of travelling, often my mind drifts off to an image that is deeply ingrained in my head. That image is the shadow of the rig cast by the setting sun (setting perpendicular to the road). I distinctly remember the shadow of each of our setups dating to the 1984 Olds Cutlass wagon with a Coleman Sun Valley behind it. That morphed into a Caravan with the same trailer. Then DW and my first rig, an XC70 and the the Windstar towing the Coleman Cheyenne. Next the Outback/Truck combo, and finally the 5'er sitting over the truck. As I sit and ponder what's next, my mind wanders back to that image and I begin to wonder what the next one will be......

Well, I'm off for a long weekend. Everyone have a great Labor Day!


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

I think the edge line is growing next year to 23 and 25 models. Havent seen any yet. If I see any brand that is different Ill let ya know Nathan. '

Carey


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> I think the edge line is growing next year to 23 and 25 models. Havent seen any yet. If I see any brand that is different Ill let ya know Nathan. '
> 
> Carey


Thanks Carey!


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## wolfwood (Sep 19, 2005)

5th Time Around said:


> To solve the dilema of not enough space for too many kids and dogs, can I trade in my kids and dogs (gently used, not many mods)????
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Keep the dog


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## 5th Time Around (Jul 8, 2008)

wolfwood said:


> To solve the dilema of not enough space for too many kids and dogs, can I trade in my kids and dogs (gently used, not many mods)????
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Keep the dog








[/quote]

If they weren't psychotic dogs, maybe i'd consider it. Alas, everytime they find a new home, then get brought back to us. So for now were stuck with them, and him, and those 2 legged creatures:lol In the bigger 5th wheel over the bigger F250.......Is retirement ever going to get here????? (then we can downsize)


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## mountainlady56 (Feb 13, 2006)

'Ohana said:


> Seeing as you already have the truck
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OMG!! Can you say C*L*A*U*S*T*R*O*P*H*O*B*I*A!!!!!







My parents had one of these, and I never went with them. Would have preferred a TENT, I believe!! The only good thing?? When my daddy threatened to lock me out of the house, if I came in late?? I could tell him, "OK, I'll sleep in the camper!!"








Darlene


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## swanny (Oct 31, 2007)

when I was a kid along time ago mom and dad had a smallish Terry. One summer we brought my uncle with us. After about 4 or 5 days my uncle said
This is weird every time I turn around I bump into myself.


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## GarethsDad (Apr 4, 2007)

When I was younger my family camped in a 8' slide in Huntsman in a 68 F250 standard cab. There were 5 of us in that camper, the kids rode in the camper. I remember the day the new truck came home that my dad had ordered it was a 1976 F250 camper special. It had the super cab, 390 engine, 4 speed manual transmission with granny 1 and storage doors in the side of the truck box and a 2' step bumper. Those were some of the best days that I can remember. Oh and by the way this is the truck that I had to take my drivers licence road test in. James


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