# Need Help/advice Dealing With Keystone



## 4H1DinaOB (Jan 5, 2006)

I posted a while back regarding a possible frame issue with our 26RS. Turns out Hatcityhosehauler had the same issue on the same model and year of manufacture (2004) as ours. Talked to Keystone and they told me that I would need to take it into the dealer for an assessment before they could make any decision on it. So - I took it into the local dealer (Curtis Trailers) and they confirmed.

Here is a quote from their email "MYSELF,TWO TECHS AND THE FOREMAN
CRAWLED UNDER THE TRAILER AND FOUND THAT BASICALY FROM THE FRONT OF THE
FENDER SKIRT TO THE REAR OF THE FENDER SKIRT THERE IS NO SUPPORT FOR THE
FLOOR. THERE IS A CRACK AT THE CROSS BEAM WHICH IS BEHIND THE CRACK THAT IS
VISIBLE AT THE TIRE WELL."

They found this without removing the whole underbelly so my bet is that the damage is more extensive than even what they found. They submitted this information with pictures to their warranty claims department. Response back: Claim Denied - Warranty expired three years ago.

Well we knew the warranty was expired and the customer service rep knew that when he told me to get the assessment from the dealer. I am afraid that I am up against somebody getting paid minimal wage to determine warranty or not warranty and stamp "Denied" on it if its not - without giving any further thought to the situation.

If this was something like my refrigerator stopped working or hot water heater is on the blink, obviously that is out of warranty and Keystone is not responsible however, this is clearly a major structural defect that has rendered our trailer unusable; in other words our beautiful Outback that sold new 4 years ago for $26K - is now basically scrap.

Any suggestions for next steps? Anyone have connections with and/or "clout" with someone higher up the chain of command at Keystone?

thanks,
Jonathan


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## advancedtel (May 7, 2008)

4H1DinaOB said:


> I posted a while back regarding a possible frame issue with our 26RS. Turns out Hatcityhosehauler had the same issue on the same model and year of manufacture (2004) as ours. Talked to Keystone and they told me that I would need to take it into the dealer for an assessment before they could make any decision on it. So - I took it into the local dealer (Curtis Trailers) and they confirmed.
> 
> Here is a quote from their email "MYSELF,TWO TECHS AND THE FOREMAN
> CRAWLED UNDER THE TRAILER AND FOUND THAT BASICALY FROM THE FRONT OF THE
> ...


This looks like a great case for "action line" from Good Sam magazine "Highways. Also Trailer Life has a service called RV Action Line that is very similar. If you are a Good Sam member or subscibe to Trailer Life Magazine i would get them involved. They usually get very good results from Mfg companies.


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## Camper Louise (Aug 7, 2004)

_"This looks like a great case for "action line" from Good Sam magazine "Highways. Also Trailer Life has a service called RV Action Line that is very similar. If you are a Good Sam member or subscribe to Trailer Life Magazine i would get them involved. They usually get very good results from Mfg companies."_

I would second that!


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## jitch388 (Apr 19, 2008)

Before I bought my Syd I called Keystone with a couple of concerns. I ended up talking to the retail manager (can't remember his name) It may be at the office. I'll check tomorrow. Anyway, you may call and just ask for the retail manager. They will put you through.


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## mmblantz (Jul 1, 2007)

X3 on action line and possibly the Consumer Product Safety Commission......sounds like a major safety issue to me.---Mike


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

mmblantz said:


> X3 on action line and possibly the Consumer Product Safety Commission......sounds like a major safety issue to me.---Mike


x3, they seem to make things happen


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Jonathan,

So sorry to hear about your problems. First off, I would recommend contacting 'Team Challenger' at Keystone. They seem to have more latitude in their decision making capabilities, and several members have had good results after contacting them. No promises, but that would be a good place to start.

A couple more thoughts on the subject (I'll play good cop and bad cop!)

First the bad cop: Nobody ever likes to hear something is not covered because the warranty has expired, but the fact is, most of them do expire and we know that when we buy the product. Now, granted, this seems like the sort of issue that should transcend warranty dates, and hopefully Keystone will step up to the plate (at least to some degree), but it is what it is.

Now the good cop: Whatever else happens, there is no reason to view your investment as "now basically scrap". I have not seen your problem personally, but 20+ years in the engineering world, and I can promise you the trailer can be fixed (probably better than new). Structurally, these things are not that complicated. You have a basic ladder frame, and any competent trailer repair facility (there are several in Portland) is going to be able to address the problem. It will not be hard to add a reinforcing plate here, or a gusset there. Maybe an additional cross brace or two. For somebody that knows what they are doing, it's pretty simple stuff. And cost wise, while it will not be cheap, I would suspect that you may be pleasantly surprised. If you want, I can come up with the names of a couple of good shops for you.

Now, it may be pie in the sky to expect that Keystone will pick up the whole tab (although stranger things have happened), but they may be willing to split the cost with you. They may also be able to provide some engineering assistance to whatever shop you end up going to, as far as how to best make the repair.

In any case, don't give up! One way or another, we'll get you guys back on the road!









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## daslobo777 (Mar 24, 2007)

Sorry to hear of your problem. For those that are dead set against extended warranty as waste of money.....here is a prime example because the problem isn't found until after warranty and then they would have no fighting of the issue. Next, do not give up because this was a problem from day one. If Keystone manufacturer, your dealer, your maintenance people who worked on the trailer the last four years did not find the problem then how is the customer going to know of a problem. I think most businesses even health insurance deny deny to make people tired and go away. Don't give up. One thing I would throw at them is they are very lucky someone wasn't seriously injured in the four years of the floor not being adequate. How did this pass their quality/realiability inspection of the trailer. Do not split the cost, do not pay for it, keystone is responsible reagardless of when warranty ran out on this situation. You already have proof that the floor has been missing support from day one. In my opinion, they are lucky to just be responsible fixing it up to their code of standards and not being sued for any personal damages. My initial statement is for the fact with extended warranty then Keystone can't give a fight. Good luck

Cristy


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## Colorado Campers (Apr 20, 2004)

DITTO with the previous remarks, don't give up and go higher each time w/ someone at Keystone. I have a 2004 28RLS, and mine was also just out of warranty, when the front cap needed to be replaced last year due to their common problem of warping. At first, I had the "it's out of warranty" routine, but went higher and was persistent, and went through local dealer, and it was finally (took a few months) replaced w/no cost to me. Hang in there.


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## 4H1DinaOB (Jan 5, 2006)

Thanks all for your response to my plight.

I know that our trailer can be fixed; I am just feeling very discouraged at this point given that my experiences with the RV industry have only been with Curtis and now Keystone and none of it has been very positive.

I plan to look into the "RV action line" and see what they might be able to do for us.

Also - I actually have an extended warranty for our trailer with another 3-years on it, but those warranties cover things like appliances, water heaters, etc, - not frame defects. However, as daslobo777 pointed out, this could have been a lot worse; what if the frame had given out completely while we were heading down the highway at 60mph? There could have been serious consequences to my family as well as others on the road with us.

Doug,
Do you have any contacts or phone numbers for "Team Challenger"? I did some research on the web and did come up with the names of Keystones President/CEO and VP of Sales as well as Lippert Frames CEO.

If it does come down to having to fix it ourselves, I would actually much prefer having someone other than Curtis do that work as I am not convinced that they are capable. So.... if you could give me those names of shops that can handle this type of work that would be great.

Another possible option that I have considered is that my brother-in-law is an expert welder and I may have him look at it.

Thanks again - your help and advice is always appreciated

Jonathan


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## nynethead (Sep 23, 2005)

I would second calling keystone. ask for the outback group who is responbile for the line and work it from there.

If after all your trying nicely you get nowhere, it will then be time not to be nice.

You find where the largest RV show is where Keystone attends, On the east coast it is Hershey PA.

You go there and talk to the corporate people and plead your case, they will listen as you can make such a scene if they don't.

My cousin had a problem with his Rator with the generator and carbon dioxide, local dealer and such blew him off.

I was looking for my outback at the time and he camped out at the Raptor display. After some will placed conversations and then threats the rep

called his local dealer back in NJ and told him to fix the problem and they did.

Either way I hope you get a resolution you will be happy with.


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## LarryTheOutback (Jun 15, 2005)

4H1DinaOB said:


> I would actually much prefer having someone other than Curtis do that work as I am not convinced that they are capable.


Absolutly do NOT allow Curtis to do this type of repair even if under warranty. They are well meaning folks, but couldn't repair their way out of a wet paper bag. Have Keystone refer you to another local Keystone dealer and/or a specialty trailer frame outfit (it may take a combination of dealer and shop). As Doug mentioned there are trailer frame companies in town. Check the Yellow Pages under "Trailers-Mfrs or maybe Trailers-Repair & Service ignoring the dealers like Curtis; One of them, for example, has the words "Fabrication & Custom Trailers" in their name, another lists "Welding & Fabrication". You'll find someone that can do a quality job.

Ed


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## daves700 (Jun 12, 2006)

I would love to see them step up and help you, 100% paid would be great, but 50/50 split would atleast help. It does sound like a problem on the manf's end for sure ...

Keystone we know you read this ..... hello! lots of Owners and "future Owners" are reading as well .... help a outbacker out!


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## 4H1DinaOB (Jan 5, 2006)

Just got a call from service manager at Curtis and according to him "they've done everything they can do and the answer from Keystone and Lippert frames is - NO" 
I will pick my Outback up from Curtis, put it back in storage and start escalating on my own as well as checking with the local yellowpage listings for Trailer Repair, welding, and customer fabrication services. 
Once again, Curtis Trailers completely underwhelms me with their customer service and the bummer is they will still charge me several hundred for their so-called diagnostics.

Jonathan


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## OregonCampin (Mar 9, 2007)

LarryTheOutback said:


> I would actually much prefer having someone other than Curtis do that work as I am not convinced that they are capable.


Absolutly do NOT allow Curtis to do this type of repair even if under warranty. They are well meaning folks, but couldn't repair their way out of a wet paper bag. Have Keystone refer you to another local Keystone dealer and/or a specialty trailer frame outfit (it may take a combination of dealer and shop). As Doug mentioned there are trailer frame companies in town. Check the Yellow Pages under "Trailers-Mfrs or maybe Trailers-Repair & Service ignoring the dealers like Curtis; One of them, for example, has the words "Fabrication & Custom Trailers" in their name, another lists "Welding & Fabrication". You'll find someone that can do a quality job.

Ed
[/quote]

I don't know if they do this type of repair work, but we have been VERY happy with our dealer down in Eugene. You might be able to call their service department for a referral to someone in Portland. The service manager is awesome - he took some pretty good newbie phone calls







from us in the beginning and was very patient.

Willamette Valley RV is the name of our dealer. Leonard was our sales guy. I can't remember the service guys name, but the phone number is 541-463-0575.


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

4H1DinaOB said:


> ...............Once again, Curtis Trailers completely underwhelms me with their customer service


...and this surprises you?


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Don't feel to bad, we have some dealers like that in MI too (the one I'm thinking of doesn't sell outbacks, but still...)


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## 3athlete (May 14, 2006)

Here is the name of one of the managers that attended an Outbacker Rally in Canada 2 years ago. He said to call him if there were any problems...use the main Keystone # on their page. *Last name Hyde, first name Brian.* He and another "big wig" from Keystone surprised us and showed up at the rally and talked to many families and said they read this forum...so he may be a good place to start.

Also, do some research on the frame...I do remember my DH, Hatcit Hosehauler, said that there are documented issues with the bending of the frames that year.

I wish you good luck.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

I guess I will be one of the bad guys here. Exactly how long do you want them to extend your warranty, 1, 5, 10, 30 years? The manufacture of the frame determined the cost of the frame based on actual cost and a projected warranty expenditure based on a fixed time period of coverage. If the fault with the frame was not identified during the warranty period then why are they responsible for the current repair.

Repair costs are not that much in 99% of the cases. Please post photos and we maybe able to help you estimate the costs.


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

CamperAndy said:


> I guess I will be one of the bad guys here. Exactly how long do you want them to extend your warranty, 1, 5, 10, 30 years? The manufacture of the frame determined the cost of the frame based on actual cost and a projected warranty expenditure based on a fixed time period of coverage. If the fault with the frame was not identified during the warranty period then why are they responsible for the current repair.
> 
> Repair costs are not that much in 99% of the cases. Please post photos and we maybe able to help you estimate the costs.


Andy...I think the point is the frame was never built correctly. From my talks with Johnathan (we work together) he was told the frame is actually missing a support bar. This is by no means the fault of the owner and how would anyone know this is a problem until it is too late and damage starts to happen due the frame twisting over time.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Oregon_Camper said:


> I guess I will be one of the bad guys here. Exactly how long do you want them to extend your warranty, 1, 5, 10, 30 years? The manufacture of the frame determined the cost of the frame based on actual cost and a projected warranty expenditure based on a fixed time period of coverage. If the fault with the frame was not identified during the warranty period then why are they responsible for the current repair.
> 
> Repair costs are not that much in 99% of the cases. Please post photos and we maybe able to help you estimate the costs.


Andy...I think the point is the frame was never built correctly. From my talks with Johnathan (we work together) he was told the frame is actually missing a support bar. This is by no means the fault of the owner and how would anyone know this is a problem until it is too late and damage starts to happen due the frame twisting over time.
[/quote]

Jim - Look real close at your frame on both sides from just in front of the front wheel to just behind your rear wheel. I would wager that you will find at least 1 crack (if not 6). The cracks are due to a combination of things and they will line up with the internal ladder supports that go from side to side. The contributing factors include too much temperature during the weld, thin frame web (1/8" or less), no stiffeners, overloaded trailer, rough roads. The issues are not all due to manufacture but a combination.

The lack of floor support would not cause the frame to crack. I would still like to see pictures.


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

4H1DinaOB said:


> If it does come down to having to fix it ourselves, I would actually much prefer having someone other than Curtis do that work as I am not convinced that they are capable. So.... if you could give me those names of shops that can handle this type of work that would be great.


Thought its a bit of a drive from Portland there is a shop in Pendleton, OR that I would highly recommend. The the Friday of Memorial Weekend I had major issues with the landing gear on my Keystone Raptor. Called Keystone factory in Pendleton but they only suggested Drakes, wouldn't help me in any other way. I went to Drakes about 1PM and those guys busted their hump to get me fixed. Their rates were about $30/hour cheaper then local service places as well. All the guys working there have worked for the Fleetwood, Northwood, Keystone and other RV plants in the area - they had 3 RVs torn down while I was there doing rebuilds. If I ever need major work I'll be calling them.

Drake's RV Service 
4701 NW A Ave. 
Pendleton OR 97801 
541-278-8170


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## 3athlete (May 14, 2006)

```
repair costs are not that much in 99% of the cases. Please post photos and we maybe able to help you estimate the costs.
```
cost us $3000, that certainly isn't anything to sneeze at.

and like someone else said, if the frame wasn't made properly to begin with, why shouldn't the manufacturer stand behind their product? it isn't the fault of the consumer whether it is inside the warranty period or not.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

3athlete said:


> ```
> repair costs are not that much in 99% of the cases. Please post photos and we maybe able to help you estimate the costs.
> ```
> cost us $3000, that certainly isn't anything to sneeze at.
> ...


You could have had a new frame installed for $3000. What did they do that they charged you that much??? What trailer model?


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## 3athlete (May 14, 2006)

the labor was extensive, very time consuming...they re-welded certain parts, then had to remount the cabinets and counter console. it was the 2004 26 RS


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## 4H1DinaOB (Jan 5, 2006)

CamperAndy does bring up a couple interesting points and in fact Curtis did state in their summary that the cracks found in the frame (vertical not horizontal cracks) were not contributing to the problem. However, what they found in addition to frame cracks was broken and or missing frame rails allowing the wood deck to bow and causing the floor deck to "wave" across the trailer from main frame to main frame. They basically removed the underbelly and found that in the mid section of the trailer there is essentially no support for the floor and by their estimation would require 3 to 4 floor joists welded in place to bring the floor back up to square.

This is clearly defective manufacturing when you have an issue like this on a trailer that is only 4-years old with ~3K highway miles on it. If I were to ask Keystone if there was anything that I could have done to prevent this, some maintenance step perhaps, or anything else; I am pretty sure they would not have an answer because you can't plan for, or prevent a manufactures defect and again, this is not normal wear and tear (if it was, they could never charge what they do for a new trailer).

Here's an analogy as to why I think Keystone is responsible for this issue. My commuter car is a 1990 Acura Integra (obviously no longer under warranty). Last year my automatically retracting seatbelts stopped working. The little connector that slides along a track on the door frame when you open and close the door was basically stuck in the open position. The first repair shop that I took it to told me that it would cost me approx. $700 to get the system fixed. I then found out that the federal government (some transportation/safety commission - can't remember their acronym) requires that the original manufacture repair these systems under warranty at no charge to the consumer as it represents a serious safety issue. So I took it into the dealer and they fixed it - no questions asked and no charge. ON A 17 YEAR OLD CAR!

Back to my current problem: Dealer calls it a manufacture defect. Problem does not fall under normal wear and tear and poses serious safety issues now and for any future use of the trailer. Net net - Keystone should fix the problem.

Jonathan


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

The dealer is not telling you the truth or there is some communication errors going on here.

The Frame is designed to support the running gear and the sub floor support beams. The way the trailer is made the floor joists are not visible from under the trailer.

Starting from the frame and working up.
Black tarp material (used to seal the sub floor from the frame).
Fore and aft running beams (these set on top of the frame)
Side to side floor joists and fiberglass insulation
Floor decking.
vinyl.

The frame is a ladder type construction with cross beams about every 3 or 4 feet. Removing the belly you can see the frame cross members, tanks, some plumbing and a rat nest of wire and the black inner floor liner. What you can not see are any of the floor support beams, joists insulation or decking.

All this said you can have welds fail on the floor joists but even so the way everything is stacked I am not sure how that would result in the floor sagging.

I would love to see pictures.


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## 4H1DinaOB (Jan 5, 2006)

CamperAndy,
Sounds like you know way more about how these things are constructed than the dealer does - just wish you weren't so far from me and I would have you take a look. 
The problem is I can only go on what the dealer tells me and also the fact that hatcityhosehauler had the exact same issue on the exact same model and year. 
I also know that when someone walks across the floor from the entry (front) through the kitchen towards the back, the floor noticably gives and the cabinets flex away from the wall (that never used to happen and for three years the cabinets have been snug to the wall). The give in the floor is now in permanent sag and the top edge of the cabinets have moved a half inch away from the wall. In addition, the ceiling vent housing has popped out because it is no longer square and the awning is canted about 1/2 to 3/4 inches forward making it very difficult to retract and secure it to the side of the trailer. 
Here is a picture of the cabinets. 









let me know what you think.
Jonathan


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Just going by the descriptions, I don't nessacerly know more then the dealer but I am more honest.

The kind of structural failure installation errors you have now described is more then just a cracked frame which I was responding to in the first place. If you have the trailer I would like to hear about a couple of other items.

The deck of the trailer extends 1 foot past the frame on each side and has cantilevered supports about every 4 feet. These are also the point at which the pre built deck is attached to the frame. Looking from the front to the rear of the trailer sight the frame and look for deflection downward, it should be very little. If there is visible deflection you can measure it by pulling a string from the front bottom of the frame to the back bottom of the frame. Anything more then about 1/2" is on the high side. Now the tough one is sighting down the supports that extend past the frame, the skirting makes this tough so you use the string again. Attach the string as far out on the front frame beam but still inside the skirting and then attach the other end to the back in the same way. Measure from the string to the bottom of the cantilevered supports, these should have the same amount of deflection as the frame for the same location. If one or more of the cantilevered supports fail or bend excessively then you could have many symptoms you describe.

The main floor support beam that rests on the frame can not be seen unless the black floor seal material is removed but you can still feel for damage. Feel along the top of the frame, looking up under the side skirt, no need to remove the belly. The main floor beam should be tight on top of the frame the full length of the trailer. If there has been frame twisting or movement, or something was caught between the frame and the floor during construction you may find gaps.

Another set of issues can be caused by poor attention to detail during construction that now begins to show. Failure to screw the decking into the floor joists of having debris or insulation between the decking and the floor joist that has now compressed or moved.

Failure to screw the cabinet supports in the the aluminum wall studs can lead to the cabinets pulling away or having floor decking movement due to the above decking issue can cause the screws to pull out of the wall.










One of the major things I do at work is failure analysis. I have to take very little information that the customer may provide and then come up with plausible reasons for the failure. The more information the better and more plausible reason for the failure.

I just want to help and avoid you having to spend money on the wrong fix. Before you have the dealer do repairs and I am sure they are up to their ears in work right now anyway. Tell them you need a second opinion and take it to another dealer to see if they come up with all of the same faults as the first dealer.


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## Scoutr2 (Aug 21, 2006)

Camper Louise said:


> _"This looks like a great case for "action line" from Good Sam magazine "Highways. Also Trailer Life has a service called RV Action Line that is very similar. If you are a Good Sam member or subscribe to Trailer Life Magazine i would get them involved. They usually get very good results from Mfg companies."_
> 
> I would second that!


Make that a third opinion that agrees. Send this to Action Line, where many RV buyers look to see what kind of results can be obtained when the company's reputation is hanging out there for the whole RV world to see.

Also check with the National Highway and Traffic Safety Administration website and search for complaints about this defect. If there isn't one, I would recommend that you file a complaint. You may not get any action from that immediately, but you'll feel a little better about it.

Are you listening, Keystone? We're waiting to hear any news about this!

Mike


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## 4H1DinaOB (Jan 5, 2006)

Fellow Outbackers,
Thanks for all of the input and advice. I have it on my "to do" list to hit the "Action Line" and I will also look into the Highway & Traffic Safety website that Scoutr2 posted.

CamperAndy - thanks again for all your input. Your analysis and summary of possible causes is great. One thing I noticed; all of those possible causes related back to poor and / or improper construction. So, is it not reasonable for me to expect Keystone to support me on something like that?

You did suggest getting another opinion from a different dealer however, from the information you have provided I think that what I really need is to take it to someplace that actually builds trailers and understands exactly how they are put together top to bottom. I am not convinced that Curtis Trailer (our local Outback dealer) has that knowledge or expertise and I have my doubts that the other dealers in the area are any more capable. Maybe that means going to Pendleton to the Keystone factory or to Drakes RV (thanks Y-Guy) I am just worried about the safety of making that trip from Portland with the Outback in the condition it's in. Also, PDX_Doug has provided me with leads on several local specialty shops that I am going to check into.

It already cost me $400 to have Curtis look at it and I don't feel like I am any closer to figuring this out. Obviously I am going to need somebody else to look at this, but am concerned about continuing to throw money at it with no real results - as CamperAndy said "spending money on the wrong fix".

Plan of action: 
Get this on the Action Line
Check Highway Safety website
Follow up with Keystone support and make every attempt to escalate to successive levels of management
Contact Brian Hyde at Keystone and see if he is willing to help (thanks 3athlete)
If those previous two fail - write scathing letters to Keystone CEO and Keystone VP of sales.
Check with local specialty shops

Still hoping to make the Fall PNW Rallies -


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

You should make video of the trailer, burn it to dvd and mail it to anyone and everyone that you think can offer help, advice and/or solution


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