# New Guy, Soon To Be New Owner



## skills4lou

Hi all,
First I have to say this a great site. Thanks Vern. I've been lurking for a few days. Looking at a used '04 21RS. We looked at new 06 23RS a few months ago, but decided it was just out of our price range. Really liked the layout. Anyhoo, saw this one in the paper last week, and now we're in serious dealings with the owner. So, I may be joining your ranks soon.

ME: USAF SSgt (soon to be TSgt), currently doing special duty as a missile facility manager, stationed at FE Warren. If I tell you any more I'll have to kill you.

Lovely Wife: Newer model than me, and wonderful stay at home mom to:

Daughter: 3 1/2, and currently a "sparkly fairy princess" who refers to me as "King Daddy".

Son: 20 months, and all rough and tumble boy. Favorite word: grunt, grunt


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## camping479

Welcome and thanks for your service!!!

Hope the deal works out for you, King Daddy









Mike


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## rnameless

Welcome. Check back often and good luck in your negotiations for the new to you 21rs. You will find tons of useful info here.


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## ee4308

skills4lou,

Welcome to the site!! I know you will enjoy the information posted here. Glad to hear yall are about to be Outbackers. sunny Thanks to you and the family for your service to our country!


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## tdvffjohn

Does the newer model wife call you King Daddy too









Welcome to you and your family action

John


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## HootBob

Welcome skills4lou to the group
Hope the deal works out for you and family

Don action


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## amanda lou

Welcome to the neighborhood







and once again thank you for your service. I love the cant tell you more line, but if you really cant







I promise I dont want on the receiving end.
Anyhoo, good luck on the negotiations, you wont be disapointed and I wish you and yours many years of fun, as I can see you are headed in the right direction.


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## 2500Ram

Welcome to our little piece of the internet skills4lou.

Lots of new Outbacks being purchased lately.

Bill.


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## drobe5150

welcome aboard action

good luck with your wheelin & dealin for the outback

& and thank you for serveing this great country of ours









darrel


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## Fire44

Welcome to "OUTBACKERS". Best of luck with the purchase of your Outback.

Thanks for serving our country!!!

Gary

PS: Happy Veterans Day!!!


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## PDX_Doug

action action action *WELCOME TO OUTBACKERS, SKILLS4LOU!* action action action 
Glad to have you aboard!

Good luck in your dealings!









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## skills4lou

WOW







That's quite the welcome wagon!! Thanks everyone. The seller is firm at $14K, but that includes the hitch and an 1850W Coleman generator. I talked with Brandon Tom at Keystone about this one. He said it was made 4 Aug 03, purchased 20 Aug 03, and the warranty ran out 19 Aug 04. There was no warranty work done on the camper, no claims whatsoever. 
Sounds like a decent deal to me at $14K, what do you guys think?

(NADA shows $14,820)


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## Katrina

Welcome to the site!
former dogface myself. What grade is a SSg in zoomie-land?(My apologies to Vdub).
What kind of hitch are you getting in that deal?
What about a brake controller?
What are you towing with?
That is prolly a good price depending on if the hitch is any good.


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## summergames84

Welcome to Outbackers and thanks for serving our country! action


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## Crawfish

Welcome to Outbackers.com skills4lou,

Hope the deal works out for you and your family.







I am also new to the site. Great site uh.







It helped me make up my mind on an Outback. Anything you need to know people here can help you. Again welcome and hopefully happy camping.

"*Let's Go Camping*"

Crawfish


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## skills4lou

(quote)Welcome to the site!
former dogface myself. What grade is a SSg in zoomie-land?(My apologies to Vdub).
What kind of hitch are you getting in that deal?
What about a brake controller?
What are you towing with?
That is prolly a good price depending on if the hitch is any good. (endquote)

No idea what the hitch is, other than W/D
I'll be installing a Prodigy, been meaning to do that for a while, this is a good excuse.
TV=94 GMC Suburban, 1/2, 350/4L60E/3.73

I'll be doing a thorough PDI, hopefully this weekend. I've been at work since Tuesday AM, and won't get home until Saturday PM. You know what 24/7/365 means. That's why I intend to spend a little of that HARD earned money on recreation.

I'll let you all know what hitch it is when I find out. Thanks again!!
*edit* forgot to mention that SSgt is E5 in zoomie land.


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## Katrina

skills4lou said:


> (quote)Welcome to the site!
> former dogface myself. What grade is a SSg in zoomie-land?(My apologies to Vdub).
> What kind of hitch are you getting in that deal?
> What about a brake controller?
> What are you towing with?
> That is prolly a good price depending on if the hitch is any good. (endquote)
> 
> No idea what the hitch is, other than W/D
> I'll be installing a Prodigy, been meaning to do that for a while, this is a good excuse.
> TV=94 GMC Suburban, 1/2, 350/4L60E/3.73
> 
> I'll be doing a thorough PDI, hopefully this weekend. I've been at work since Tuesday AM, and won't get home until Saturday PM. You know what 24/7/365 means. That's why I intend to spend a little of that HARD earned money on recreation.
> 
> I'll let you all know what hitch it is when I find out. Thanks again!!
> [snapback]63324[/snapback]​


While I realize that when serving your country, the money does not exactly roll in.
You really need to find out if the burb has a factory transmission cooler. If it does not then add one. next thing is to add a transmission temperature gauge.
You need these things in the burb. Don't ask me how I know, I just do.


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## 2500Ram

Burb or not, I believe everyone with an auto tranny (pulling larger TT's) needs a HD Trans cooler and gauge installed from the line on the tranny to the cooler, that is the hottest line, never install from cooler to tranny.

Bill.


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## skills4lou

No worries guys. It has the massive tranny cooler, engine oil cooler, supersized radiator etc, etc. I've towed....well, let's just say significantly more than the 21RS....and never had any problems. I actually have a problem getting the thing warmed up, especially in winter. 
Plus I'm one of those guys that's perfectly happy towing in third at 60mph, or less in the hills. I'm going camping, not driving at Indy!
Thanks for your concern though.


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## Thor

Welome to Outbackers.om action 
And hopefully congrats on your new TT







Good Luck with that.

$14K sounds like a fair price with all the add-ons. Prices varies from region to region as well. It sounds like you have done your homework - Go for the Outback, and most of all enjoy the family fun that you have with it.

Thor


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## skills4lou

OK, another update. I called the dealer that the owner bought his outback from. They'll sell me an 06 23RS for $18500 with a WD hitch. So, for another $4500 I can have a brand new one (with warranty). Now I'm really unsure. DW would like to have 2 queen beds, so I'm seriously considering going with the new one. Your thoughts?


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## huntr70

Check out this LINK.

You may be able to use this towards your advantage and get them to price match.

If I remember correctly, there are a few people on here that have bought from Lakeshore or used their info to match with at their local dealer.

Steve


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## Scooter

Welcome,
And thank you for serving and protecting our country.

I used lakeshore to leverage local deal. See if he will sweeten the pot , Brake controller, maxx air fans , battery upgrade, anything. Though our local dealer couldn't match lakeshore price, after calculating shipping , the difference was only 400.00 and weighing that against local dealer service and convienance convinced me to support our local dealer. Do the math and see if the difference in monthy payments (if you are financing) is minimal. if so shoot for the '06.


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## skills4lou

Thanks huntr70, that should help immensely. I emailed Lakeshore to see if the $16599 price includes any of the options, I also emailed the link to the local dealership to see what they can do. I'll be following up by phone Monday. I know that on another forum (RV.net/camping world/woodalls) they recommend 75% of MSRP, and $16599 is just a bit over 75%. So, we'll be playing the phone game with a few dealers. I don't actually have one that local. One is about an hour south, and another is about 3 hrs north. The guy north of us said 18500 with WD hitch, the guy south said about 19500 (no WD). If I can get a new 23RS for 16599 with all the options "locally" then I'll be joining the ranks of the Outbackers by Wednesday. I already have a loan approved for the new one at 18500, so almost 2grand less should be easy. Oh, and the loan is at 6.85%, not bad all things considered. Payments would be sub $200, which I can afford.

I'm getting all jittery again. AAAAGGGGHHHHH. Just think, I could be camping next weekend in my new outback!!























( sorry, I just found the rest of the emoticons







)


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## Oregon_Camper

Not to throw you another curve ball.....but you might want to consider the 25RSS. For a few more dollars, you get a LOT more trailer. Two doors, the slide out couch (which makes a huge difference...really huge), and a smooth kitchen layout.

We went for the 28RSS, as the "bunk house" was something we couldn't live without.


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## skills4lou

OK, we just got back from looking at the 21 again. This time I brought the family. We decided to look around for a little bigger one before we go any farther. Two big reasons: My son was able to figure out the bike storage door in about 1/2 second, and then wanted to open it and fall out on his head, and it just felt a little too cramped with everyone in there. If we're going to spend that much money on a camper we'd rather get one that'll have enough room for us in 10 years too. Our kids have a habit of growing larger, so I want to make sure that it'll be roomy enough when they are in their teens too. 
I guess I see this as an investment in my families future (the family that camps together, stays together







). I'd rather wait and maybe spend a little more money to get a camper that will continue to be a good fit, as opposed to buying what works now and figure on getting another one if five years.
I also like to do mods (who doesn't), and it'd be a shame to spend all that time on a camper I'll be selling 5 years. 
Oh, Oregon camper, checked out your website. I like the mods. 
One other factor in just which model I get is my TV. It's a 94 half ton, and I don't want to kill it by getting a huge trailer. So, do any of you with the 25 or 26 footers tow with a half ton suburban? If so what do you think?


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## PDX_Doug

skills',

I applaud the reasoned and pragmatic approach you are taking to this endeaver!







. A properly equipped half ton can handle bigger Outbacks (forget the Sydney's), but being a 'burb I would be concerned about wheelbase. I know Oregon_Camper pulls a 28RS-S with his, and seems to be fine. But I would be nervous (It also may be a 3/4 ton... Jim?).

Happy Shopping,
Doug


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## glennsteers

Welcome to Outbackers.com

My dad was a Captain in USAF SAC in Homested Air Force Base, FL when I was a kid (early 60's) and got an HD to fly for Pan Am (before it folded).

Thanks for the service and best of luck in your Outback search!


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## socialstudiesmom

It makes a lot of sense to get what you know will still fit your growing family in the next couple of years. We love our model and I talked to a dealer in Battle Creek, MI who had just ordered one for a women for $17,500 (06 28 RS DS). This was less than we paid, but we had a trade in to complicate things. 
We are probably towing more than most would advise, but we also keep our speed way down and don't live in a mountainous area.
Best wishes with your shopping and hope you're Outbacking soon!!!


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## skills4lou

DW and I have been looking at floorplans all day. Pretty much decided on either the 23rs or 29BHS. I know, pretty big jump between the two. It'll be interesting to find out what the dealer will do. We found another dealer in KY who's listing the 23RS for $15,498 and the 29BHS for $17,136. So, we're using thos figures to leverage the dealer that's south of us (about two hours, not one as previously stated). The guy that's three hours north is firm at 18500 for the 23, so I think I'll be passing on that one. When I mentioned the internet price and asked him if they could match it he got a little hostile. I don't know about you but if I'm going to be giving a dealer my hard earned cash he better be nice to me. Well, gotta go call the dealer south of us.


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## huntr70

Is there a reason you are looking at the 29BHS and not the 28BHS??

Not that i am biased towards the 28 or anything... shy (see sig)

There is enough weight difference between the 2 that maybe the 28 would work also. Basically the only difference is the bunks are 2 smaller ones instead of one wider on the bottom, and the bathroom is turned the other way across the back. HERE is the link for the 28BHS spec's on Keystone's website.

Steve


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## huntr70

-----Forgot to mention that the 28 is listed under the fifth wheels on the website, but it is a pull behind TT....unless I am towing it wrong!!!!























Steve


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## skills4lou

Huntr70,
We kind of like the idea of having the bigger bed on the 29BHS. Our kids like to be snuggled before going to bed, and if we have two big beds it'll be much easier to do that. I don't get the chance to cuddle the kids as often as I'd like, so I'm willing to spend a little more to get two big beds. As you know kids grow up fast, so it won't be to long before they will be done snuggling and want their own space.

The dealer south of us got back with a bid of $18K for a 23RS. So I'm gonna keep looking. Have to contact the dealer in KY, They've got a 23RS for 15,500 and the 29 BHS for 17,136. Plus they deliver free 500miles, so I may have to meet them halfway somewhere. More to follow.


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## Oregon_Camper

PDX_Doug said:


> skills',
> 
> I applaud the reasoned and pragmatic approach you are taking to this endeaver!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . A properly equipped half ton can handle bigger Outbacks (forget the Sydney's), but being a 'burb I would be concerned about wheelbase. I know Oregon_Camper pulls a 28RS-S with his, and seems to be fine. But I would be nervous (It also may be a 3/4 ton... Jim?).
> 
> Happy Shopping,
> Doug
> [snapback]63628[/snapback]​


Yup, we pull the 28RS-S with a Suburban 2500 (3/4 ton). I have ZERO issues with this combination. I have never had any "white knuckle" moments and have more then enought power to pull a full trailer (water, food, everything) over the Oregon Mtn. Suburban is rated at 9600lbs towing (had to subtract 200 for the Quadrastreer unit). I would have to run the numbers on a 1/2 ton Suburban, but I would sure tend to think it would pull most Outbacks 26' or less.

Jim


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## skills4lou

Another update: Just got off the phone with the dealer south of us. He said that they won't sell us anything bigger than the 21RS. He figures the 1/2 ton suburban will be overloaded with a 23RS, and a 29BHS will basically kill us. Not sure how he figures that, but then again he didn't have the prices we where looking for either. Also, he wanted to charge me $300 for the PDI!! No thanks, I'll take my business elsewhere. 
I called GM directly to get a tow rating for my Suburban (and I mean my exact one, I had to give them the VIN) and they said I could tow 6500 lbs. The dealer said you have to have a 1000lb buffer, so he's figuring I can tow 5500lbs, and then looking at the GVWR of the trailer. Ok, so he's trying to ensure a super safe towing experience, unlike many dealers who will tell you a half ton can tow a train. But I know from past experience that 6500lbs of trailer is NOT too much for me and my truck. I figure a trailer UVW of about 5000lbs will be just fine for me. I don't plan to tow at 80 (heck, I don't drive that fast in anything, much less towing!). When I moved here to Cheyenne I pulled my horse trailer loaded up with HHG, and the total GCVW was right at 13000lbs. My truck weighs 5250 unloaded, so I had 7750lbs of cargo and trailer. I had no problems with anything, just took it a little slower on the hills. I even had a blowout on one of the trailer tires, and it was a non-event. Just pulled over, changed the tire, and got new one at the next town. No sway, no massive pull, and this was over the top of 4th of July Pass on I-90 in the winter with snow on the roads. Oh, and I didn't have a WD hitch or sway control.















Based on that and many other trailers I've towed I don't believe I'll have any problems towing any of the models that I like. The 23RS will be easier than the 27 or 29, but I can tow any of them. That's another reason I like the Outbacks: lightweight. That and the fact that they aren't just cardboard and bubble gum wrappers like some of the other lightweight trailers out there. OK, I'm done ranting now.
Anyone feel like towing a trailer from the dealer in KY to Cheyenne, WY?


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## PDX_Doug

Skills,

I agree your dealer may be a little over the top in his estimation of what you can safely tow, but how refreshing to see that attitude in a dealer. Kudo's to him for putting your families safety above his profit margin!









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## camping479

Our yukon is on the same platform (just shorter) than the suburban. Towing our 21RS we are right at GVWR, plenty of room on GCWR and 1500 under the tow rating though.

The tongue weights and overall weights of the outbacks are quite a bit higher than the brochure says. IMHO take a hard look and run the weight numbers before you jump into one of the bigger outbacks with your current truck.

Mike


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## skills4lou

OK, he called back and figures we can tow 7000lbs now, which means he'd sell us up to the 25RSS. So, we might be driving down today to look afterall. I still think his price is too high, and the $300 for a PDI is just crazy talk. But, like PDX_Doug said, it's refreshing to have a dealer err on the side of caution instead of selling a trailer that's just way too heavy. I'll keep you all posted.








*edit* I think I'll see if I can get actual scale weights from him too, not just posted numbers. I agree with Camper479, those weights always seem a little, shall we say optomistic :B.


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## Oregon_Camper

Don't know about your neck of the woods, but on most Oregon Hwy's there are scales that you can use to weight your rig/trailer.

Try to find one and have the dealer allow you to take the trailer for an extended testing drive (er..test pull)

Swing into one of these areas and see what the trailer weighs. Guessing it will surprise you. Now, add an easy 1000 lbs to that for gear/water/food.

Good Luck to ya!!!


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## skills4lou

Hi all. As promised here's the update: we looked at everything up to the 29BHS today. DW and I still like the 23RS the best. The dealer wasn't willing to come down any more on the price, so I'm gonna shop around a little. 
The biggest thing we noticed today was the tub surround. All the models we looked in (except the Sydney) had NOT been caulked around the surround.







There was a noticeable gap at the top and bottom, especially in the corners. My thinking is that water will get behind there and rot the walls out. Kind of surprised me to see that on these. Those of you with 06's, is yours the same way? If so, did you caulk it? I think if we do get a new one that's gonna be my first "mod". We took some pictures, I'll post tomorrow when I have more time. For now, off to bed....


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## Devildog

Welcome aboard TSgt, good luck with the search, it is a pain while doing it, but well worth it when it is sitting in your driveway!


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## skills4lou

I talked with John at Lakeshore RV last night. Very pleasant to deal with, now I just have to decide if it's worth it to me to drive out there or see if the local guys are gonna come around.
He said they'd sell me a Husky WD hitch(I need the whole setup, not just bars) for $365, and set up 2 6V T105's for another $199. Seems reasonable for the hitch, not sure about the batteries. Your thoughts?


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## zoomzoom8

That gap you speak of around the tub is normal. I've had two TT's with that setup. What you don't see is that the tub behind that surround goes up about another two to three inches. You would have to put quite some pressure at that gap to make water go up and over that tub top edge. How do I know this? I asked the same thing to myself and took it apart to see. I guess you could caulk if you want to for the added peace of mind but I don't think you need to.

Hope that helps. Have a great holiday!


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## huntr70

skills4lou said:


> I talked with John at Lakeshore RV last night. Very pleasant to deal with, now I just have to decide if it's worth it to me to drive out there or see if the local guys are gonna come around.
> He said they'd sell me a Husky WD hitch(I need the whole setup, not just bars) for $365, and set up 2 6V T105's for another $199. Seems reasonable for the hitch, not sure about the batteries. Your thoughts?
> [snapback]65152[/snapback]​


For the $365, I would hit them up for a Reese Dual Cam system. That is about the price you can buy them for. I'm not sure about Husky brand, but for that money, you are probably just getting an OK setup with a friction sway control. See link HERE. Go to bottom of page for Reese dual can sway.

Also, the tub surrounds are NOT supposed to be caulked. They are open to allow moisture to evaporate. If you close them up, the walls will rot...this way they get to breathe. I would recommend either a pleated shower door, or one of the shower screens. I installed the screen in ours, and we have had no leakage problems since. (the water tended to run along the side of the surround and down onto the floor)

Steve


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## skills4lou

Thanks Steve,
If we do this I will go for the Reese.

I finally got a call back from BuyNationalRV just a while ago. Talked with Michelle. They are selling the 23RS for $15,498 out the door. That's the lowest price I've found by far. Does anyone on here have any experiece with this dealer? I'm not sure I'd like to drive that far (1300miles) for a questionable dealer. Again, thanks for all your help!!


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## PDX_Doug

huntr70 is absolutely correct regarding the tub gap. You do not want to seal it up!

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## skills4lou

Yet another update: I got a call from the guy who owns the 21RS that started this whole thing today. He's now willing to take $13K, so I'm gonna take a look at it again. I'd like to spend some more time in it, to make sure about our choice of the 23 over the 21. So, the saga continues.............


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## PDX_Doug

Be strong Skills'

It took us a year and a half!









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## fishingmarlin

What is your GVWR for the 1/2 ton suburbon? Since you are going to have kids I assume you will be loading the trailer with bikes and a lot more stuff than someone without kids.

I have pulled boats with vehicles that where close to GVWR and it just destroyed them. 
So I am a real stickler for keeping weight down since my TV is also my main transportation.

We started looking at the 29' and 30' trailers however my truck is only rated at 6700lbs. So I decided that whatever I got needed to be right around 4000k dry. The dealerships here in Ky did not have any problem in trying to sell me something to heavy for my truck.

Call this company
http://customersfirstrv.com/
They gave us a heck of a deal on there last 2005 model 21RS. $14,9k

If you are going to be towing long distances I highly suggest getting a seperate transmission cooler for sure. Even if you are just going to do 1 or 2 long trips a year. I had a buddy who destroyed his vehicle towing a long distance during the summer months. You may not get too hot for a single trip but multiple trips will start to cause problems. They are not the expensive and somewhat easy to install by yourself.

I would have loved something bigger but I am going to wait until I have to replace my truck and get something bigger when I have a bigger truck.

Just remember all the numbers you are given are bloated or understated. Most dealerships will go with the highest number available for your tow vehicle then give you the lowest weight on the trailer. Not taking in account extras, full tanks, gear, etc...


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## GlenninTexas

Just a note on the weight issue. Don't use the weight the dealer tells you for yuor calculations. Use the weight posted on th esticker inside the cabinet of the unit you intend to buy. Usually located above the kitchen sink area. Of course even better would be an actual weight from a scale.

Good luck, Glenn


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## glennsteers

All Keystone products list the dry weights without options! But wait, Outbacks come standard with every option, what are they talking about?? Believe it or not, the AC unit, the awning, water heater, furnace, and microwave are among the items not included in your listed dry weight. However, almost ALL Keystone trailers have about the same weight for these options...300 pounds! So take the number quoted in the brochure/website and add 300 lbs to that number. That should match the number inside the cabinet!

Of course, you need to add 800-1200 lbs for propane, fluids, food, hitch, clothing and gear...if you're like most people! For example, my 26RS with empty tanks and almost fully stocked weighed in at 6100 lbs, even though the "listed" dry weight is 4480!

Food for thought...


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## skills4lou

Thanks again all for your posts. FishingMarlin: The Sub has all the towing equipment (Engine oil and tranny coolers, XL radiator, 12 ply "E" rated tires, etc.). I have ~6500lbs GVWR available for towing. The 21 is rated 3990, 23 is at 4360 lbs. Figuring in an extra 500lbs for options, that still leaves me with over 1000lbs for gear and assorted stuff. Bottom line, no worries about the weight.

I should also mention that I finally got my Prodigy wired up. Can't remember for sure







but I think the OE wiring is 8 awg for the brakes and 6 for the 12V Battery leads, so I just used it. Tekonsha calls for 10 or 12 awg wire, so that should be just fine.


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