# Man Killed In Rv At Utah Wal-mart



## NobleEagle (Jul 8, 2006)

I'm loyal to this sight but I still surf the net. I came across this and thought I'd post it for others to see. Remember to lock that deadbolt when sleeping...even if you are in the sticks!


*Man killed in RV at Utah Wal-Mart*
A man was killed last week after he forced his way into a motorhome parked overnight at a Cedar City, Utah, Wal-Mart. Steven Stubbs, 26, may have been intoxicated, police say, when he forced his way into the RV at about 10 p.m. The RV was occupied by a family of four from Florida. "The tourists inside were in fear for their life," Sgt. Jerry Womack told the Deseret Morning News. "There was a scuffle inside the motor home and the man shot (the intruder) in the head with a shotgun." The family had been traveling through the area and stopped for the night. The Cedar City Police Department said it was investigating if the use of deadly force is justified. The Iron County Attorney is expected to make a final determination.

_Click here for original article_



I forgot to add, I can't blame the guy. "His family's life was being threatened in his own home". I hope they find it justified. I will also say I personally would not have done anything different.


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## shake1969 (Sep 21, 2004)

A SHOTGUN?

Talk about an unwieldy weapon in the confines of the camper. Well, whatever works, I guess.

A real shame that somebody had to die, though. Even a dumb drunk.


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

At least the right person bit the dust. I have been in a quandry as to what type of weapon to carry along with me. I have a variety of options; small back-packing .22 (AR-7), 20g single-shot shotgun, 12g sawed-off shotgun with pistol grip, .357 revolver, 9mm auto, plus about a dozen rifles. Unfortunately, my concealed weapons permit is only good for 19 states and not any good at all for Canada. So, I'm somewhat limited to either the back-packing .22 or the 20g. Of those two, the 20g would certainly be the most effective (as disclosed in the article) and would be legal in most states and canada with or without the carry permit. If I took the .22, then I'd have to be careful to not carry hollow-points with me since those are illegal in Canada. Of course the other option is to not carry anything at all or maybe have pepper spray handy. However, I believe even pepper spray is illegal in Canada unless "it is for defense against bears". At this point, I think the decision will be to not take anything. Oh, maybe a bowie knife. Any suggestions? What do you guys do?


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## dougdogs (Jul 31, 2004)

vdub said:


> At least the right person bit the dust. I have been in a quandry as to what type of weapon to carry along with me. I have a variety of options; small back-packing .22 (AR-7), 20g single-shot shotgun, 12g sawed-off shotgun with pistol grip, .357 revolver, 9mm auto, plus about a dozen rifles. Unfortunately, my concealed weapons permit is only good for 19 states and not any good at all for Canada. So, I'm somewhat limited to either the back-packing .22 or the 20g. Of those two, the 20g would certainly be the most effective (as disclosed in the article) and would be legal in most states and canada with or without the carry permit. If I took the .22, then I'd have to be careful to not carry hollow-points with me since those are illegal in Canada. Of course the other option is to not carry anything at all or maybe have pepper spray handy. However, I believe even pepper spray is illegal in Canada unless "it is for defense against bears". At this point, I think the decision will be to not take anything. Oh, maybe a bowie knife. Any suggestions? What do you guys do?


avoid Canada


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## NobleEagle (Jul 8, 2006)

dougdogs said:


> At least the right person bit the dust. I have been in a quandry as to what type of weapon to carry along with me. I have a variety of options; small back-packing .22 (AR-7), 20g single-shot shotgun, 12g sawed-off shotgun with pistol grip, .357 revolver, 9mm auto, plus about a dozen rifles. Unfortunately, my concealed weapons permit is only good for 19 states and not any good at all for Canada. So, I'm somewhat limited to either the back-packing .22 or the 20g. Of those two, the 20g would certainly be the most effective (as disclosed in the article) and would be legal in most states and canada with or without the carry permit. If I took the .22, then I'd have to be careful to not carry hollow-points with me since those are illegal in Canada. Of course the other option is to not carry anything at all or maybe have pepper spray handy. However, I believe even pepper spray is illegal in Canada unless "it is for defense against bears". At this point, I think the decision will be to not take anything. Oh, maybe a bowie knife. Any suggestions? What do you guys do?


avoid Canada








[/quote]

BUAhahahaha I didn't have the heart to say it...Glad someone did


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

NobleEagle said:


> I'm loyal to this sight but I still surf the net. I came across this and thought I'd post it for others to see. Remember to lock that deadbolt when sleeping...even if you are in the sticks!
> 
> 
> *Man killed in RV at Utah Wal-Mart*
> ...


Ditto


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## N7OQ (Jun 10, 2006)

Yep the guy broke into someone elses home so he deserves to die. In my younger days I indulged in some heavy drinking (20 years in the Air Force) and no mater how drunk I got I still knew what I was doing so being drunk is no excuse. Living in this liberal infested state (big cities only) with all their stupied useless gun laws is a pain. Not one of these stupid guns laws work it only makes it easier for the bad guy. I think that a CWP should be good in every state in the union.

I don't think that everyone should own a gun but I beleive that everyone should have the right to if they want. If you don't want to own a gun that is fine just dont try to force me to give up mine









My weapon of choice is a 9mm with 2 clips with 17 rounds in each.


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## W4DRR (May 17, 2005)

Close range....in the head.....a shotgun!
Man, I'm glad I don't have to clean that mess up!









Bob


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## Highlander96 (Mar 1, 2005)

W4DRR said:


> Close range....in the head.....a shotgun!
> Man, I'm glad I don't have to clean that mess up!
> 
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly......









Actually, the shotgun is probably the safest of all options. Pellets loose energy very quickly and generally will not penetrate more than a sheet of drywall. If they do penetrate, they are not carrying much energy. I have been hit with #8 pellets at less than 100 yards and they didn't break the skin (shot from another hunter at the opposite end of a dove field). Unless, you are packing buckshot or rifled slugs...........









When we teach home defense, we usually suggest a shotgun with small shot for home defense. It is generally the safest of all options for a novice.

Now....for my set up.......Sig Sauer P229 .40 with two 10 round mags.............Alternate is a Glock 17 with two 17 round mags.......

Happy Outbacking and safe travels.........

Tim

P.S. if anyone is considering using a firearm.......Please, Please take a general safety course and maybe even a home defense course. 20 hours that WILL save your life and those around you.

I am not advocating firearms.....Just the safe use of them........


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

> 17 rounds in each


Darn, which I had those! My 2 9mm clips are only 13. I usually put a couple snake loads on top and fill the rest with fragmenting hollow-points. I figure I can pop off the snake loads pretty fast and get to the real stuff. My 9mm is a little unusual in the US. It's a DaeWoo DP-51. Yeap, the same guys that make the car. It's actually a very nice weapon and is standard issue to the korean army -- very rugged, very easy to field strip, and relatively inexpensive (about $300).


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## sleecjr (Mar 24, 2006)

vdub said:


> At least the right person bit the dust. I have been in a quandry as to what type of weapon to carry along with me. I have a variety of options; small back-packing .22 (AR-7), 20g single-shot shotgun, 12g sawed-off shotgun with pistol grip, .357 revolver, 9mm auto, plus about a dozen rifles. Unfortunately, my concealed weapons permit is only good for 19 states and not any good at all for Canada. So, I'm somewhat limited to either the back-packing .22 or the 20g. Of those two, the 20g would certainly be the most effective (as disclosed in the article) and would be legal in most states and canada with or without the carry permit. If I took the .22, then I'd have to be careful to not carry hollow-points with me since those are illegal in Canada. Of course the other option is to not carry anything at all or maybe have pepper spray handy. However, I believe even pepper spray is illegal in Canada unless "it is for defense against bears". At this point, I think the decision will be to not take anything. Oh, maybe a bowie knife. Any suggestions? What do you guys do?


have you see the 410 revolver? Its smaller than the pistol grip 20g and still neighbor friendly.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

W4DRR said:


> Close range....in the head.....a shotgun!
> Man, I'm glad I don't have to clean that mess up!


That was my first thought!









This is always a very lively - and polarizing - discussion. I will simply say, that my choice (for my own reasons) is not to carry a firearm camping. Instead, we make the effort to avoid camping in places or situations where we feel the need for one. Camping is vacation for me, and vacation is all about relaxing. I for one will not feel relaxed if I am in a situation where I feel a firearm is necessary to protect my family. Whether I'm carrying, or not.

That is just my approach to the matter, for my situation. I make no efforts to try to 'convert' others to my way of thinking, nor do I care to be converted. It's just what works for us.

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

I would guess that any revolver would not make it's way across the canadian border, but the .410 looks very interesting. I had not heard of one, but looked it up on the net -- tad heavy at 4 pounds. Would take a bigger boy than me to handle it, but, then again, you don't have to be too accurate do you? Totally cool weapon. Looks like it's made by the same folks that made the desert eagle.

I still don't know what I want to take on the road with me, tho. Canada is a big problem and I'm sure we will want to wonder into canada from time-to-time. Some of the northeastern states that are still under communist rule are a problem as well. Some of those states in the noreast have absolutely no sense of humor when it comes to weapons of any kind. Out west, sans California, almost any goes.


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## 7heaven (Jun 4, 2005)

Shotgun in the confines of the TT....














I would worry about accidentally hitting a family member...


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

> I would worry about accidentally hitting a family member...


Yeah, you definitly would need gun control. I've seen a lot bumper stickers of people in favor of gun control and I agree. If you can't shoot properly, then you shouldn't be shooting at all.


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## Lady Di (Oct 28, 2005)

We stay 'prayed up'. What can be better than that?


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## Scrib (Jun 28, 2005)

Victim: 1
Bad Guy: 0


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## mbakers (Apr 1, 2006)

I always travel prepared. I have gotten some criticism over it. I pray I never have to defend myself and protect my family. But better safe than sorry. That camper did what he had to do and his family is still here.


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## Ghosty (Jan 17, 2005)

shotgun was an overkill (no pun intended)

weapon of choice - .38 S&W with hollow points

easy to handle -- easy to conceal -- plus you dont have to replace the entire half of the trailer after the first shotgun round...

as long as he says the magic words of "I feared for my life"... "I shot him as a last resort"... "he told me after he killed me he was going to kill my family"..."the bad guy said he was collecting contibutions for Hillary Clinton for President" ... he should be fine.....


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## sleecjr (Mar 24, 2006)

vdub said:


> > I would worry about accidentally hitting a family member...
> 
> 
> Yeah, you definitly would need gun control. I've seen a lot bumper stickers of people in favor of gun control and I agree.


In florida we have bumper stickers that say

*I'm not a tourist, I'm a well armed native!*


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## hotcap (Jun 24, 2006)

A taser would be another option where legal. I carry a 45 or other pistol when I am absolutely sure I am not going into a state where my license is not recognized. When in question I leave the pistol home and put a 12 ga with 00 buck in it's place. Still need to watch going into parks etc. Some states an illegal gun(determined by that states laws) carries a mandatory 1 yr jail sentence. If you carry or arm yourself know how to use it. Before you ever carry ask yourself if you are mentally prepared to use it. Once you expose the weapon in a "situation" things happen fast. The thinking needs to be done beforehand. Coming in second in a gunfight is not a good option.
hotcap


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

Yeah, that is the problem. If going out camping on weekends, you can gauge what you need and pack accordingly. If going for extended times like I do or sluggo, then it's a totally different ballgame. In order to be flexible enough to travel into any state (or country) at any time, then you have very limited options. It's a tough decision.


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

vdub said:


> Yeah, that is the problem. If going out camping on weekends, you can gauge what you need and pack accordingly. If going for extended times like I do or sluggo, then it's a totally different ballgame. In order to be flexible enough to travel into any state (or country) at any time, then you have very limited options. It's a tough decision.


Not really. I have more respect for my wife's life and welfare, and that of myself, to let details get in the way. Oh, Canada - see ya later.

Sluggo


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

> Oh, Canada - see ya later.


Uh, yeap! That might be my conclusion as well. Same goes for the Hillary states.









On edit..... Guess what? My 12g with pistol grip, believe it or not, is squeaky clean legal. It has been measured for barrel length and overall length by many of our finest -- at my request. It's actually a very nice weapon to take on back-packing trips, which is why I got it in the first place. I beleive "short-barreled" is the proper term for it -- not sawed off. Actually, short-barreled may not even be right. It is a 19" barrel and 30" overall. At any rate, it has been checked and deemed legal by a lot of folks. I purchased it as is from a gun shop.


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## NobleEagle (Jul 8, 2006)

PDX_Doug said:


> Close range....in the head.....a shotgun!
> Man, I'm glad I don't have to clean that mess up!


That was my first thought!









This is always a very lively - and polarizing - discussion. I will simply say, that my choice (for my own reasons) is not to carry a firearm camping. Instead, we make the effort to avoid camping in places or situations where we feel the need for one. Camping is vacation for me, and vacation is all about relaxing. I for one will not feel relaxed if I am in a situation where I feel a firearm is necessary to protect my family. Whether I'm carrying, or not.

That is just my approach to the matter, for my situation. I make no efforts to try to 'convert' others to my way of thinking, nor do I care to be converted. It's just what works for us.

Happy Trails,
Doug
[/quote]

I agree with Doug, however a Wal-Mart in Utah doesnt seem to be like planning a trip to the Bronx NY or Los Angelis, CA at 2am. I also promote the CHOICE of the person. When it comes to my family, if you are found here tonight (trying to hurt them), you will be found here tomorrow.


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## Texas Friends (Feb 12, 2006)

Do I carry a weapon?

*I'm from Texas!*

...need I say more?

Happy Camping

Bryan


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## outback21 (Jun 17, 2006)

Assuming the facts are straight, I'm glad the family is safe no matter how they acheived it.


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## ARzark (Aug 9, 2005)

We're pretty careful and aware of our surroundings. That being said, when we travel on the road with the Outback I do keep a .357 on board and accessible. We've been in some pretty remote places, done the Wal-Mart overnite and caught some quick zzzz's at rest areas. Most times we feel pretty safe, but just in case....

Canada, forget it! I don't even think about taking it there. Just not worth it. A few years ago we were up in the Laird Hot Springs area. (Very popular spot) A woman was killed by a bear like the next day after we left. An American shot the bear, probably saved other lives, but guess who was in deep doo doo for having a firearm???


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## alebar17 (Mar 10, 2006)

W4DRR said:


> Close range....in the head.....a shotgun!
> Man, I'm glad I don't have to clean that mess up!
> 
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly! Wonder if that is covered under insurance?


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

vdub said:


> > Oh, Canada - see ya later.
> 
> 
> Uh, yeap! That might be my conclusion as well. Same goes for the Hillary states.
> ...


Awrighty, then - that be legal. I ALMOST had a Mossberg 500 riot w/8-rnd mag. My boykid sold it before I knew it was available. Dumb kid. Anyway, there are all sorts of "less lethal" ammo for them now - rubber bullets, sandbags, etc.
Me, I believe if you have good enough reason to pull the trigger, you have good enough reason to dispatch the offender. Each to his own - or his lawyer's own...

Slug


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## ROO-ING (Jun 24, 2006)

Often times the intent of the owner has to be considered with the insurance company. The intent was not to harm his trailer but rather stop the intruder, further more one could legally argue the person was mitigating his damages. IE protecting his property and family from further loss. I would not like to be the adjuster on that claim.

Sad story overall


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

""Close range....in the head.....a shotgun!
Man, I'm glad I don't have to clean that mess up!

Bob"

OT, but - in my former metro area, there was a rash of suicides at one of the local indoor ranges. Da boykid and the owner gave thought to making helmets of old body armor, so as to reduce the mess. The guy was out of business for three or four days every time.

Incidentally, almost every city of any size has an individual the cops call "the cleaner". It is usually not an advertised business, since it is a pretty macabre subject. If you need a cleaner, the cops can steer you. Then they will want to know why you need him...

Slug


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## campmg (Dec 24, 2005)

vdub, glad you have a picture of your rig posted. I'd hate to accidently walk in that thing some night.









One must protect his family.


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

I don't carry anything at this point. The laws are such a mish-mash of cans and can nots, that it's difficult to figure out what is legal or even prudent. I want to carry some protection, but I don't know what it will be. I kind of frown on spending a year or two in jail or even spending several thousand defending myself. I don't know what the best solution is.


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## mik0445 (Jun 5, 2006)

This can be such a touchy subject, I'm really impressed that this post has went so smooth. It is a said day when anyone dies, I feel for the family of the individual that was on the receiving end of the bird shot, but I feel even more for the family at the giving end. No matter how warranted it was for the intruder to be 'neutralized', said defender still has to live with the images and thoughts of taking someone's life. As for the shotgun, imo a short but full stocked shotgun is the best to carry, especially in a campground or parking lot situation. It is big, and it will be messy, but legally you shouldn't have a problem with it anywhere. Also, with small birdshot, some of the pellets will go through the thin walls of the camper, but they should slow down enough to not do a lot of damage on the other side. When I carry my .40 with an extra magazine I come up with a whopping 18 shots (I leave one hole in the magazine to prevent jams). While that is great if I am in a parking lot shootout against the other guy while he's shooting back, it's very risky for collateral damage. Two hits at center mass should neutralize most, and with adrenaline pumping that means 16 other pieces of lead strike elsewhere (hopefully not the woman running for cover with her kids. During a combative situation even a trained person's accuracy can drop around 80%, which doesn't help this situation. I am in no way saying not to carry, or to defend yourself, but aside from the legal standpoint, you've really got to be careful, and never draw unless you are ready to kill. Myself, if I am in a situation where it is feasible to carry or keep a shotgun nearby, I take that as an alternative. When I camp, my 12 is always in the camper. A lot of my friends that camp with us in tents make me nervous, especially in bear territory so I'm ready to help out if Yogi decides to wander into camp, as well as the occassional human that is up to no good. Sorry if I have offended anyone or if this post was just too drawn out, but as you can see, this is one topic that I had to chime in on.


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## sleecjr (Mar 24, 2006)

So what are the laws about a shotgun? It is legal in all states? Where must you carry to cross state lines?


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## BritGirl (Apr 7, 2006)

My hubby doesn't leave home without a gun. Once a cop always a cop. That being said he has had numerous death threats in his past job, was almost killed and left for dead. He can carry concealed under Bush's new law throughout the whole country. Because of the death threats he has urged me to get my US Citizenship so I can carry concealed also (which I will now that I know I can keep my UK Citizenship). The threats were made to him and family, I guess that includes me. Even though we have moved 3,000 miles from his police job (disability retirement) some criminals (drug dealers in particular) can be pretty intent on finding you. Everything is in my name and we are have an unlisted phone #.

At the end of the day I feel for the guy doing the shooting and his family, DH always said if you carry a gun you better be prepared to use it and live with the consequences. If you aren't prepared and can't deal with the after affects you have no business owning one.

We also don't have children but it would make no difference anyway, all the more reason to protect the little ones. As long as the guns are locked up and kids are taught gun safety & handling then they will grow up with a healthy respect for guns. Accidents happen when kids are curious, take the curiosity away.

I argue with My Mum & Dad all the time about my right to arm myself in my home. They just don't get it coming from Socialist Britain (where all handguns were banned in a knee-jerk reaction to Dunblane). I just tell them that if someone comes unwanted into my home and beats my father and rapes my mother I will have no qualms about putting a bullet between the eyes. We will not be victims.

I have no problems with anti-gun people but at the end of the day you can go out of your way to try and make yourself safe and camp in what you think is a safe place but S*** Happens and good people get hurt & killed in what they thought was a safe place.

Only last year a Park Ranger shot a man at a campground at Crater Lake, Oregon............makes you think huh!!!!!!!

BritGirl


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

BritGirl said:


> My hubby doesn't leave home without a gun. Once a cop always a cop. That being said he has had numerous death threats in his past job, was almost killed and left for dead. He can carry concealed under Bush's new law throughout the whole country. Because of the death threats he has urged me to get my US Citizenship so I can carry concealed also (which I will now that I know I can keep my UK Citizenship). The threats were made to him and family, I guess that includes me. Even though we have moved 3,000 miles from his police job (disability retirement) some criminals (drug dealers in particular) can be pretty intent on finding you. Everything is in my name and we are have an unlisted phone #.
> 
> At the end of the day I feel for the guy doing the shooting and his family, DH always said if you carry a gun you better be prepared to use it and live with the consequences. If you aren't prepared and can't deal with the after affects you have no business owning one.
> 
> ...


HI Brit Girl,
Rick carries only when we are in big cities (belly bag) like Seattle and I often see him put it under the seat in the truck when we travel. I think after 20 years of marriage I got used to seeing it so I don't see it, know what I mean? I need to ask him how often he has it with us, probably always and I didn't know. I am such a big chicken that if a bad guy came along, I wouldn't be much help. Last week we left a friends anniversary party and were walking to our car down the road when a creepy car with creepy guys pulled up to house next door. I am fined tuned to Rick's body language and saw it change immediately. He was walking with not looking back at them so they couldn't see his face. Said he arrested one of the little B&*$#[email protected]# the month before and the guy didn't like it.Imagine that. I didn't give it much thought until later. The what if's started going thru my head. Of course being in tank top, shorts, and sandal he wasn't armed.I am always armed with my mouth, but somehow I think that would be detrimental! ha!ha!
One more thing: about 10 years ago we were traveling back from Chelan,Wa. We had pulled into rest area and saw some less than desirable people. When we left and they left we witnessed one of the drivers putting gun out window and shooting at the other driver (he missed). This was before the days of everyone having cell phones.Rick didn't have weapon that day. Rick steps on it to follow them with me screaming at him that he wasn't even armed. We saw a cop car coming towards us and the cop was pulling someone over. We told him, within minutes cop cars were coming from every direction. They pulled up, got Rick's info, checked his id, opened trunk, threw him a rifle and they all hopped in cop cars and away they went. My head was spinning with excitement and complete fear. Long story short,with road block they caught the bad guys. It was a drug deal gone bad (hate it when that happens, don't you







)
It all could have turned out so differently. Bad guys are don't care who they hurt.....


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## CautiousCamper (Jun 27, 2006)

I am going to wade in on this one. I can echo some thoughts that the outcome was not the most desirable. Even to the family, the images and feelings must be terrible and everlasting.
I never really gave a thought before about some neighbouring campers possibly carrying weapons. It doesn't exactly give me a warm and fuzzy with my own young family. 
To each his own I guess. I am just finishing a 12 hour night shift too. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. That includes we Canadians.


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## jt-mt-21rs (Jun 17, 2006)

I was thinking the same thing. I'm liking the "avoid Canada" idea if you feel the need to bring firearms on the family camping trip.


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## freefaller25 (Mar 19, 2006)

That's horrible! And I have to agree...I wouldn't want to clean up that mess!

Dana


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## jlbabb28 (Feb 27, 2006)

Society is safer when criminals dont know who is armed.

That being said for the guy in Utah who defended his family, I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

You just never know personal protection is no diffrent than insurance, you hope you never need it but your glad you have when you do.

IMHO,

Jeff


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## geodebro (May 26, 2006)

That being said for the guy in Utah who defended his family, I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

IMHO,

Jeff
[/quote]

I have heard that saying numerous times and once from a guy I met from Canada while on vactation. He worked for the lumber industry as a surveyor; he told me how one of his coworkers was eaten by a bear. His choice a 44; rather be judged by 12 then eaten by 1 bear.

Both the DW and I have concealed permits. She carries more often than I. We have a child and a 1000lb safe bolted to the floor.

My company doesn't allow us to carry while on the job, but when I am called out in the middle of the night for a repair I usally carry.

When I do carry it is normally the SP101, .357 with hollow-points. The wife carries a 9mm I bought for her. This is Florida, nobody knows who is armed.

It is the individuals right to carry or not, but those who do carry must be properly educated in the use of firearms and the laws.

Just my .02,

George


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## BritGirl (Apr 7, 2006)

Hi Doxie

I know what you mean, it took me less than a year to understand my DH's body language, he doesn't have to even say anything anymore to me. When I first married him I asked him why he always wants to sit in the resturant facing the door, he'll even wait for a seat if he has to with a better view. He said it was because if anything ever went down he would have seen every person who went in & out of that building and he would be in either a good position to help out or at the least be a good witness.

I am astounded daily by things he says to me and how aware of his suroundings he is. He can be having a real conversation with me and be able to repeat it back to me if asked but also other peoples conversations and body language etc etc.....all the while I don't even notice a lack of attention from him. He's damn good and tries to teach me to be more aware but I'll be honest because of him I'll totally unaware of what is going on around me. I put too much trust in him and I really should learn more from him. He did teach me to shoot and thankfully I'm a damn good shoot, never miss the target and I group really tight, at times I have grouped better than him and he was a Top Gun in the Police. I must be a natural.

Resrtictive gun laws have proven to be a disaster, just get the stats. Look at Great Britain, they banned Hand Guns and now they have a murder rate caused by guns that is out of control (higher per capita than the USA now) Stats speak for themselves.................say no more. If the whole country allowed people to either conceal carry or open carry the thugs/criminals wouldn't know who was carrying and therefore wouldn't try their luck. If you don't like guns you would still have the choice not to own one.

Baltimore, Maryland a few years ago had the 2nd highest murder rate per capita in the country and Austin, Texas had the lowest for the same size city. Liberal gun laws were the difference. If you look at Austin's crime stats now they are still one of the lowest in the country.

If you were a criminal would you car-jack or home invade someone if you had no idea what they had........I wouldn't.

BritGirl


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## WILKINS3 (Feb 1, 2006)

I agree with you BritGirl on teaching gun safety. My son impressed me the other day when we were handling a rifle to see if the weight of the gun was suitable for him this year. I handed him the rifle, he held it to his shouder and I told him that it was fine and he could handle it this year when we go hunting. He then handed back to me with the muzzle pointed to the floor without me saying anything about how to to hand it over. This reaction was automatic and it started when he was using a "POP" gun at an earlier age. He will be 9 in October. A S&W 9mm or Glock 9mm is usually with me or in the vehicle.


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## mik0445 (Jun 5, 2006)

sleecjr said:


> So what are the laws about a shotgun? It is legal in all states? Where must you carry to cross state lines?


A shotgun with a full size stock should be legal in all 50 states. When you go with a pistol grip you can get into interpretation issues, and I know from experience that you will not be able to get it into Canadia! Beware, each state has its own laws, so for general info go to click here for a general listing. For the majority of the areas while you are transporting it does not have to be registered. Keeping the weapon locked in a case unloaded is your safest bet regarding legal issues while driving. If you try to take a handgun, however, across state lines, good luck. States vary so widely on handgun laws, you really have to do your homework before going. The states I have visited and lived have varied widely on handgun laws, from must be transported in a locked case, to loaded as long as it is in plain view, and now I am really spoiled since they did away with restriction on concealed weapons. No permits, required, and very few restrictions. I love this place!


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## campmg (Dec 24, 2005)

BritGirl said:


> Baltimore, Maryland a few years ago had the 2nd highest murder rate per capita in the country and Austin, Texas had the lowest for the same size city. Liberal gun laws were the difference. If you look at Austin's crime stats now they are still one of the lowest in the country.
> 
> If you were a criminal would you car-jack or home invade someone if you had no idea what they had........I wouldn't.
> 
> BritGirl


There's a lot of other economic and educational differences between Austin and Baltimore to justify such a large disparity in murder rates.


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## kjp1969 (Apr 25, 2004)

Bravo to everybody for not turning this into a political rant.

The only time we've been a little concerned was our first trip out to a campground where our campsite was out of eyesight or earshot of the next closest campers (its now our favorite CG and site). But out there in the dark, without lights and with only crickets to listen to, my wife said "Uh, what would we do if a bad guy came by?" I didn't have a good answer. That said, all weapons stay at home while camping. The last thing I want to worry about while camping is the safekeeping of a pistol.

Now the time I had to go up to East L.A. at 2:00 am to rescue my in-laws whose rented RV broke down, that was a completely different story.


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## campmg (Dec 24, 2005)

kjp1969 said:


> Now the time I had to go up to East L.A. at 2:00 am to rescue my in-laws whose rented RV broke down, that was a completely different story.


Are you that scared of your in-laws?


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

campmg said:


> Now the time I had to go up to East L.A. at 2:00 am to rescue my in-laws whose rented RV broke down, that was a completely different story.


Are you that scared of your in-laws?








[/quote]
Good One!


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## Highlander96 (Mar 1, 2005)

campmg said:


> Baltimore, Maryland a few years ago had the 2nd highest murder rate per capita in the country and Austin, Texas had the lowest for the same size city. Liberal gun laws were the difference. If you look at Austin's crime stats now they are still one of the lowest in the country.
> 
> If you were a criminal would you car-jack or home invade someone if you had no idea what they had........I wouldn't.
> 
> BritGirl


There's a lot of other economic and educational differences between Austin and Baltimore to justify such a large disparity in murder rates.
[/quote]

Tell me about it............I have lived in Baltimore my entire life. Austin is a totally different city..... We have family in the area.

I even had three thugs try to car jack me on my way to Penn Station one morning.....I was in a GSA vehicle with the nice American Flag on the plates that say "For Official Use Only".....They had quite shock when they realized.......

Just my $.02 again.......

TIm


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

campmg said:


> Now the time I had to go up to East L.A. at 2:00 am to rescue my in-laws whose rented RV broke down, that was a completely different story.


Are you that scared of your in-laws?








[/quote]

Aren't you?









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## Scrib (Jun 28, 2005)

PDX_Doug said:


> Aren't you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Naw, FIL's a Duck


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## BritGirl (Apr 7, 2006)

campmg said:


> Baltimore, Maryland a few years ago had the 2nd highest murder rate per capita in the country and Austin, Texas had the lowest for the same size city. Liberal gun laws were the difference. If you look at Austin's crime stats now they are still one of the lowest in the country.
> 
> If you were a criminal would you car-jack or home invade someone if you had no idea what they had........I wouldn't.
> 
> BritGirl


There's a lot of other economic and educational differences between Austin and Baltimore to justify such a large disparity in murder rates.
[/quote]

Education & Economics aside (they more than likely play a part), gun laws do play a part also - Crime is Crime & Statistics are Statistics. In Maryland it is extremely difficult for an everyday citizen to get a concealed carry licence. You have to have a legitimate reason eg: retired cop, business owner etc.....

Texas on the otherhand is a shall-issue state. For a shall-issue gun law, authorities (usually a state agency; sometimes the local police) are required to issue a concealed carry permit to any individual who requests it if he meets the state's issuance criteria, usually consisting of submitting fingerprints, submitting paperwork for a background check, attending a certified handgun/firearms safety class, participating in a range check before a certified trainer (for demonstrating safe firearms handling, while shooting at a target with a handgun), and paying the required fee (if any)..

BTW I'm not knocking Baltimore, I lived there for 7 yrs, my DH for 38 yrs.

BritGirl


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## pjb2cool (Apr 8, 2004)

CautiousCamper said:


> I am going to wade in on this one. I can echo some thoughts that the outcome was not the most desirable. Even to the family, the images and feelings must be terrible and everlasting.
> I never really gave a thought before about some neighbouring campers possibly carrying weapons. It doesn't exactly give me a warm and fuzzy with my own young family.
> To each his own I guess. I am just finishing a 12 hour night shift too. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.


Ditto..Here's a thought to add to the mix...How long do you think it will be now that this has happened until RVers will NO LONGER be accepted in a Wal-Mart parking lot to sleep overnight??? Just wondering what y'allthink about that question


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

> RVers will NO LONGER be accepted


Hmmmm, might be possible. I wonder what kind of liability they have? I hope that doesn't happen, but it might be possible.


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

W4DRR said:


> Close range....in the head.....a shotgun!
> Man, I'm glad I don't have to clean that mess up!
> 
> 
> ...


Time for a new trailer and therapy for the kids.

Don't get me wrong, I'd do the exact same thing in that situation. Bad guy looses EVERY time over my family.


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## biga (Apr 17, 2006)

I check for reciprocity with the CCW for my state. I carry a 9mm and my wife carries a 380. We carry a locking case for when we are traveling through states that do not recognize our permit. I am about to install a small safe in the OB to hold the guns and a few valuables when they cannot go with us.


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## GlenninTexas (Aug 11, 2004)

My goodness, Didn't the camper even try to reason with the intruder. Maybe it was just a mistake he broke into the wrong camper. Maybe he thought it was his. Perhaps he should have offered to make the fellow a cup of coffee or green tea and sit down to talk about his feelings.

Regards, Glenn


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

LOL! Gee, Glenn, a little sarcasm there? I'd never expect that from a Texan.








I guess, tho, I'm still in a quandry as to what to take along with me, if anything. Believe I'm leaning toward the "if anything" side and probably won't take anything. When you are on the road for long periods of time and don't have the option of loading up differently for a weekend trip, then you really restrict where you can go if you are packing. The national parks is a case in point. And, of course, Canda -- we do want to go to Canada. Also, the northeast states -- we want to go there too. And, for us, I need to consider military bases. Not sure what the regs are for them, but generally they frown on someone carrying a weapon on base.

I think, at this point, the best option for us is to take along nothing and park in good rv campgrounds (I avoid the type of campgrounds that double as trailer parks). Maybe I'll take a baseball bat and can of pepper spray, but will probably leave the weapons in storage. Darn, I wish they would get a national law.....


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## campmg (Dec 24, 2005)

Well said BritGirl. There are many factors indeed.


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## GlenninTexas (Aug 11, 2004)

vdub said:


> LOL! Gee, Glenn, a little sarcasm there? I'd never expect that from a Texan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I'm glad you recognized the sarcasm. You do have a delima I guess. Personally I don't take a weapon, I have two Labs that if their bark didn't scare someone away, the culprit would quickly be licked to death.
Someone mentioned the Mossberg Intruder, short barrel. I think that is what I'd take if I carried a gun. 
Many years ago when I was stationed in Wash. D.C. someone tried breaking into our apartment when I was working nights. My wife called me hysterical. I had her get the pump action 12 guage from the closet, go to the door and pump a round into the chamber - problem solved - that's a very distintive sound that most people will recognize as a bad thing.

Good luck to you.

Regards, Glenn


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

vdub said:


> I don't carry anything at this point. The laws are such a mish-mash of cans and can nots, that it's difficult to figure out what is legal or even prudent. I want to carry some protection, but I don't know what it will be. I kind of frown on spending a year or two in jail or even spending several thousand defending myself. I don't know what the best solution is.


Vdub, it's a matter of what's important to a guy, I guess. Worthless as I am, and a drag on society, I still consider protecting my fanny and that of my wife to be my top priority. Based on that, I will be prepared - but never "advertising" or brandishing. And, always, be in avoidance mode. Right after being in awareness mode.

Slug


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

vdub said:


> LOL! Gee, Glenn, a little sarcasm there? I'd never expect that from a Texan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Vdub, as mentioned, I have a reinforced cabinet containing a safe. In sensitive areas, the artillery resides there. That, and the fact that this trailer is our home, not our camper, should be enough. One's home has privileges one's vehicle does not - doesn't it, Ghosty? You've stayed out of this one - don't blame you - but it's time for input.

That said, the national compendium of firearms laws iks probably second only to the IRS code for complexity. I try to rely on common sense, and the basic right of a person to defend his and himself. Off to the jury. BTW, your lawyer should remind the jury that they, not the judge's instructions, rule in the courthouse. Right, Ghosty?

Sluggo


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## kjp1969 (Apr 25, 2004)

vdub said:


> > RVers will NO LONGER be accepted
> 
> 
> Hmmmm, might be possible. I wonder what kind of liability they have? I hope that doesn't happen, but it might be possible.


/Lawyer hat on/ Probably none, if they had no reason to believe that there was trouble in the parking lot. On the other hand, if they knew about a pattern of transients mugging customers, for example, they would have the obligation to hire a security guard. In this case, they might have liability to the family if they knew about a a crime problem with RV's getting burglarized. But as for liability for the RV'er shooting a burgler in their parking lot, I just don't see it.

Kevin P.

P.S. Afraid of both of my in-laws? Naw, just one of them.


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## kjp1969 (Apr 25, 2004)

[/quote]

Vdub, as mentioned, I have a reinforced cabinet containing a safe. In sensitive areas, the artillery resides there. That, and the fact that this trailer is our home, not our camper, should be enough. One's home has privileges one's vehicle does not - doesn't it, Ghosty? You've stayed out of this one - don't blame you - but it's time for input.

[/quote]

You're allowed, I think in every state, to use force sufficient to defend yourself or someone else, up to and including deadly force. You've got no duty to retreat from your home, but you sometimes have the duty to retreat from a public place before using deadly force. (FL just passed a law, if I'm not mistaken, saying you can "stand your ground," but CA doesn't have such a law) That's not to say that you can always use deadly force, or that you can use deadly force to protect your property, but definitely to protect your life. For example, if you see someone stealing your hubcaps, you can't use deadly force to stop the theft. Not to say they don't deserve it, but you just can't do it. But if you go out and tell them to stop, and they come at you with the tire iron they were using, well then you're left to defend yourself, rather than simply stop a theft. At the end of the day, you're going to have to prove that you reasonably thought your life (or someone elses) was at risk in order to justify deadly force.

How's that for self-defense in a nutshell?

Kevin P.

edit: it goes without saying that your camper is your "home," as is your motel room or any other temporary residence. Don't ask me what happens if you're sleeping in your car. If you're sleeping in your car, you should go home


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## Jambalaya (Jul 14, 2006)

I agree that Camping is absolutely about relaxation. Thats why our family loves it.

But if you are camping in areas that are remote or you feel your security is in question then I would suggest a small caliber pistol in the .22 range. It is very easy to shoot and cheap to practice with. Practice is absolutely essential. The .22 round also makes lots of holes in the vascular system, excessive hemorrhage will occur, believe me. Did I say that practice is essential?

With larger calibers like 9mm and .40 you have to worry about downrange penetration, like the camper next door! A 9mm will go through and through the torso and keep going, if you miss your target then the trailer wall offers essentially no resistance to the projectile.

The bottom line is that if you use firearms for personal protection then take a safety class and then practice often with the weapon as long as you carry it with you.

Long guns simply have no place in such close quarters. They are too combersome to use in the confines of a travel trailer.

If you absolutely feel the need to be protected then consider a safe alternative to firearms, the Taser. You have to be hit with one of these to really believe what it will do. The technology continues to improve and is actually safer now than ever.

Frankly I personally find the thought of carrying firearms camping somewhat disconcerting as we have two young children. But we have never camped at a WalMart going cross country. In the end it is a very personal decision, one that needs to be carefully considered and thought out.

Happy Camping.
Jambalayaa


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

pjb2cool said:


> Here's a thought to add to the mix...How long do you think it will be now that this has happened until RVers will NO LONGER be accepted in a Wal-Mart parking lot to sleep overnight???


pjb,

This was the second thought that popped into my head (right after 'YUCK!'







). All it will take is the threat of a major lawsuit, and WalMart would be idiots not to 'review' their policy. They probably are, even as we speak. It's a shame that one isolated incident could have such far reaching implications, but it wouldn't be the first time.









I do have a question for the people that keep their guns locked in a gun safe, and believe me, I think that is a must - especially if you have kids around! But, what do you do if the bad guy is coming at you, and your gun is locked up? Do you just say 'Hold on a second while I get my gun out (or remove the trigger lock, turn on the laser sight, etc.)? Just something I have always been curious about? Not trying to stir things up, I really am curious.









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## campmg (Dec 24, 2005)

Doug, I can see your point. It will take a few moments to unsecure a locked up firearm. These seconds can be critical in certain events but there are times when you should have some warning and time to prepare for the events coming your way. The extra safety is well worth it with kids around and hopefully if you need to use this force, you have a moment to prepare.

Unless you're carrying the gun on your body, you won't always have immediate access to it anyway. Hopefully you will have some warning time knowing the crazy bad man is coming to get you so you can prepare.


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

But, what do you do if the bad guy is coming at you, and your gun is locked up? Do you just say 'Hold on a second while I get my gun out (or remove the trigger lock, turn on the laser sight, etc.)? Just something I have always been curious about? Not trying to stir things up, I really am curious.









Happy Trails,
Doug
[/quote]
I don't think I did the quote thing right, but I have had the same thought as Doug.


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## mik0445 (Jun 5, 2006)

PDX_Doug said:


> Here's a thought to add to the mix...How long do you think it will be now that this has happened until RVers will NO LONGER be accepted in a Wal-Mart parking lot to sleep overnight???


pjb,

This was the second thought that popped into my head (right after 'YUCK!'







). All it will take is the threat of a major lawsuit, and WalMart would be idiots not to 'review' their policy. They probably are, even as we speak. It's a shame that one isolated incident could have such far reaching implications, but it wouldn't be the first time.









I do have a question for the people that keep their guns locked in a gun safe, and believe me, I think that is a must - especially if you have kids around! But, what do you do if the bad guy is coming at you, and your gun is locked up? Do you just say 'Hold on a second while I get my gun out (or remove the trigger lock, turn on the laser sight, etc.)? Just something I have always been curious about? Not trying to stir things up, I really am curious.









Happy Trails,
Doug

[/quote]

Doug, 
I think this question and 'reasoning' has been around since the first gun laws. You have to toss the balance of how long it will take you to retrieve the weapon vs the possible risk at hand. I'll take this back to my tent camping days in bear country. 12 gauge was always loaded lying next to me in the tent. Yes, there was a risk that it could go off at night, harming one of us, but on the other side of the token if I did not have it and something happened to the dw or kids, I would've had to deal with it for the rest of my life that I put them into risk without the proper precautions. Gun safe makers have come a long way since the days of turn-dial locks, with safes that can be opened by pushbutton in seconds. With the deadbolt on the tt, or the locks on your house, they will in no way keep anyone out. Instead they work more like a rope of bells and pots and pans strung around the campsite. If it works right it will slow down a possible intruder and give you that warning-intruder coming that you are looking for. If you don't lock your doors, you will not have that luxury.


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## mik0445 (Jun 5, 2006)

Jambalaya said:


> I agree that Camping is absolutely about relaxation. Thats why our family loves it.
> 
> But if you are camping in areas that are remote or you feel your security is in question then I would suggest a small caliber pistol in the .22 range. It is very easy to shoot and cheap to practice with. Practice is absolutely essential. The .22 round also makes lots of holes in the vascular system, excessive hemorrhage will occur, believe me. Did I say that practice is essential?
> 
> ...


I would have to respectfully disagree with your .22 plan. Yes, a .22 will bounce around inside an assailant and cause some nasty wounds that will take a fleet of surgeons a long time to patch up. The problem is that when you hit an individual with a .22 it doesn't have enough kinetic energy to stop anything larger than a small dog. The intent is not to mame or kill, but to neutralize. You could get good hits with all 10-15 rounds in a .22 pistol, and the other party will most likely still be able to hurt you. Aside from that, a .22 is just as dangerous to others in the campground as a larger bore. With the thin construction of the trailer walls it will go through just as easy as any other caliber. A shotgun with light shot will still pierce the walls, but will lose velocity a lot sooner. The only reason you would use a .22 on someone would be if you had them tied up and wanted them dead. The 9 and 40 shouldn't penetrate the torso even at close range, but the stray shots from those will keep going and potentially kill someone. Any larger caliber than that and you really stand the chance at it blowing through and continuing on. If one decides to carry a handgun for protection, especially in a scenario like this, use something like a glacier safety slug, or any other type of high fragmentation ammo. They will stop an intruder, and if they hit anything they blow apart, having a lesser chance of injuring anyone else. The only problem with these could be the legality in some states, especially some of the anti-gun areas. No offense intended here, just my opinion.


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## dougdogs (Jul 31, 2004)

vdub said:


> LOL! Gee, Glenn, a little sarcasm there? I'd never expect that from a Texan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I never even thought about weapons on base. (sure like the rates at military RV parks!!)

I hope you recognized my sarcasm, too (about Canada)


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## mik0445 (Jun 5, 2006)

dougdogs said:


> LOL! Gee, Glenn, a little sarcasm there? I'd never expect that from a Texan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I never even thought about weapons on base. (sure like the rates at military RV parks!!)

I hope you recognized my sarcasm, too (about Canada)
[/quote]

With a military ID you can normally lock them up at the armory if you are staying on base and they don't want you to have it. Army bases usually seem to be a little more liberal about having them then AF. I think you would have more problems getting a taser on base than a shotgun, though.


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## egregg57 (Feb 13, 2006)

New Mod.

I sleep well where ever.


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## Sigearny (Aug 20, 2005)

I recently posted a thread on a safe for a camper. I have sence installed mine in a location where I could properly secure it to something substantial. It is a fairly fast opening safe that my wife and I can get to in less then 10 seconds. We do most of our camping during the week and I have been to some empty camp grounds with no attendents. At night some of these have shading stuff going on in them. Mostly just kids messing arround but other times I don't know. 
Needless to say I have sometimes taken the gun out and placed it on the headboard only to return it in the morning. In my case safety is my #1 consern with the little ones arround. 
One question are Sam's club parking lots the same way as Walmarts?


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## mik0445 (Jun 5, 2006)

egregg57 said:


> New Mod.
> 
> I sleep well where ever.


Where'd you mount that thing? Back bumper? I want one too!


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

Sigearny said:


> I recently posted a thread on a safe for a camper. I have sence installed mine in a location where I could properly secure it to something substantial. It is a fairly fast opening safe that my wife and I can get to in less then 10 seconds. We do most of our camping during the week and I have been to some empty camp grounds with no attendents. At night some of these have shading stuff going on in them. Mostly just kids messing arround but other times I don't know.
> Needless to say I have sometimes taken the gun out and placed it on the headboard only to return it in the morning. In my case safety is my #1 consern with the little ones arround.
> One question are Sam's club parking lots the same way as Walmarts?


Ditto!


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

Jambalaya: â€œIf you absolutely feel the need to be protected then consider a safe alternative to firearms, the Taser. You have to be hit with one of these to really believe what it will do. The technology continues to improve and is actually safer now than ever.â€

I have seen individuals shrug off a taser. Same for OC. They are both control agents, not stoppers. Most often when LEOâ€™s use either, they are not alone and they are not in immediate fear of their lives.

Doug: â€œI do have a question for the people that keep their guns locked in a gun safe, and believe me, I think that is a must - especially if you have kids around! But, what do you do if the bad guy is coming at you, and your gun is locked up? Do you just say 'Hold on a second while I get my gun out (or remove the trigger lock, turn on the laser sight, etc.)? Just something I have always been curious about? Not trying to stir things up, I really am curious. â€

Answer: Itâ€™s not always in the safe. We rarely have little kids around. Family kids are all taught from birth what is and what isnâ€™t, concerning firearms. Yes, they are still secured when they are around, but I would not be inordinately worried to suddenly remember the piece was in the briefcase and not the safe. The situation would be corrected, but it wouldnâ€™t be a panic situation.
DD took third in a statewide black powder shoot for kids under 11 â€" at the age of 7. Itâ€™s just the way we do things. All tools have potential for good or evil, all can be harmful accidentally. You train, train, train, and practice a lot. 
DD also grew up useless and nonrespective of life, as we ******** are wont to do. Sheâ€™s a pediatrician.

Mik0445: â€œInstead they work more like a rope of bells and pots and pans strung around the campsite.â€

I have used a remuda of chickensâ€¦but not lately.

BritGirl: â€œIn Maryland it is extremely difficult for an everyday citizen to get a concealed carry licence. You have to have a legitimate reason eg: retired cop, business owner etc.....â€

Does Maryland also require that you demonstrate â€œlegitimate reasonâ€ to, say, register to vote? Why are analogues to the folks who work in the DMV deciding who has a â€œlegitimate reasonâ€ for a carry license?
ps: Retired cop carry is federal. Maryland can pound sand on that one.

Slug


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

egregg57 said:


> New Mod.
> 
> I sleep well where ever.


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

several years ago when my nephew lived in Couerdalene, Idaho he and his younger brother were home alone while the parents took friends to airport.The dad had just gotten new gun for xmas. They decided to check it out (nope, not locked up). Ryan was around 9, can't remember for sure, memory eludes me on the details.The younger brother had gun, it went off, Ryan was killed.Sad huh? my brother has coped with this all his life....it was his son, my brother lived in another state and it was the stepfathers gun. 
I don't have strong opinion either way on weapons. It's not black and white for everyone.In this country we have many freedoms and the right to bear arms is one of them. How each make decisions regarding that is his own choice personal free choice. If there are consequences due to poor planning or judgement, that person will face it-period, and will be life changing. If, on the other hand, the bad guy is coming at you or your family and you have access to the item that will protect you, you will be damn glad you had it. Either choice is not easy choice and either choice is not for everyone. As with all decisions we make, we make them with (usually) with the best intentions. 
Okay, said what I was thinking.


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## campmg (Dec 24, 2005)

Doxie - I was saddened to read that story. It is horrible.

When my kids were younger I was especially curious when they went to a friend's house if they had guns around. We would ask the parents questions about guns and if they had a locked pool fence. That's a big problem here in AZ.


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## mik0445 (Jun 5, 2006)

Doxie-Doglover said:


> several years ago when my nephew lived in Couerdalene, Idaho he and his younger brother were home alone while the parents took friends to airport.The dad had just gotten new gun for xmas. They decided to check it out (nope, not locked up). Ryan was around 9, can't remember for sure, memory eludes me on the details.The younger brother had gun, it went off, Ryan was killed.Sad huh? my brother has coped with this all his life....it was his son, my brother lived in another state and it was the stepfathers gun.
> I don't have strong opinion either way on weapons. It's not black and white for everyone.In this country we have many freedoms and the right to bear arms is one of them. How each make decisions regarding that is his own choice personal free choice. If there are consequences due to poor planning or judgement, that person will face it-period, and will be life changing. If, on the other hand, the bad guy is coming at you or your family and you have access to the item that will protect you, you will be damn glad you had it. Either choice is not easy choice and either choice is not for everyone. As with all decisions we make, we make them with (usually) with the best intentions.
> Okay, said what I was thinking.


Doxie, I can really feel for you on this one, an accident like this can really change your life. When I was younger my cousin was killed in his home in Jacksonville, FL by a driveby bullet gone astray, he was about 14, standing in his living room as a bullet came through the window. My dw's uncle was also killed by a gun that he was cleaning. After a while I came to the conclusion that neither of these were the gun's fault, but horrible mistakes of the person behind them. My dw and in-laws have a horrible taste about guns, or at least the dw did when I met her, but after living with me for a while she has came out of it. Now, especially when I leave town for a while with the AF, my wife keeps the shotgun and the .40 ready to go, locked up of course. When I bought my first guns, we thought it would be a good idea to hide the guns from the kids, until we realized that was the absolute worst thing we could do, curiousity would eventually get to them. So one day I had a talk with the lil ones, and laid all my guns out on the bed, and took them in there to pick them up, handle them, and ask questions, we spent a few hours talking about what they can do, as well as the fact that these are all safe right now, cuz dad made sure they were, and if they ever were curious or wanted to see one to just let me know. On a recent camping trip with some friends, I saw that it paid off. The friends that we went with aren't as open with their kids as we are, and their 8 yo son was talking with our 7 yo, and we heard their son ask ours, "Do you wanna see my dad's gun?" I was scared out of my mind until ours replied, "no, we're not allowed without my dad." I felt right then that all had paid off. My point, I guess, is that a gun is no different than any dangerous object you have in the house, knives in the drawer, gas can in the garage, or matches in a drawer. If respect is not taught for these at a young age, it amplifies the danger.


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## jlbabb28 (Feb 27, 2006)

Very well put I had the same conversation with my children, and they also know better. It also helps to keep a very still action on the semi auto's little hands lack the muscle to pull the slide back.

I have had both of my kids out shooting with me they have both shot already my seven year old has quite the aim. Anyway long story short training needs to start with kids young


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

What a horrible story, Tawnya!









I don't know how you would ever live with that. One more reason I will trust my instincts to stay out of trouble and rely on my wits to defuse any situation that may develop. At 51, I know my brain pretty well by now, and am confident that I will be more successful at that, than counting on it to make - without error - the kind of split second decisions the alternative demands.

As others have mentioned, things happen fast once that weapon is exposed. All false bravado aside, I am not convinced I am prepared to make the decision to pull the trigger fast enough, but not over react and pull it too fast. All the range practice in the world is not going to help me with that one. Professional law enforcment people train extensively for dealing with this sort of situation on an emotional and psychological level, and they don't always get it right. How the h*** can I expect that I would?

Nope, for my money, there's always more than one way to skin a cat.









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## egregg57 (Feb 13, 2006)

mik0445 said:


> New Mod.
> 
> I sleep well where ever.


Where'd you mount that thing? Back bumper? I want one too!








[/quote]

Its on a retractable skid in the galley. Messes things up, wife hates it around dinner time. Should think twice before install!!


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## dougdogs (Jul 31, 2004)

egregg57 said:


> New Mod.
> 
> I sleep well where ever.


Hey, I worked on the design of that puppy!! Not the gun, but the power systems that run it and its targeting systems! The power supply company I worked for did a lot of systems on the Aegis boats


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

maybe instead of a raft trip you could bring THAT to the PNW Fall Ralley???


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Doxie-Doglover said:


> maybe instead of a raft trip you could bring THAT to the PNW Fall Ralley???


Oh yeah! we could have a lot of fun with that! There are train tracks about half may up the hill on the other side of the Deschutes from the campground. Easy pickin's!

Especially when the train rolls through at about 3:00AM!

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

Doxie, I can really feel for you on this one, an accident like this can really change your life. When I was younger my cousin was killed in his home in Jacksonville, FL by a driveby bullet gone astray, he was about 14, standing in his living room as a bullet came through the window. My dw's uncle was also killed by a gun that he was cleaning. After a while I came to the conclusion that neither of these were the gun's fault, but horrible mistakes of the person behind them. My dw and in-laws have a horrible taste about guns, or at least the dw did when I met her, but after living with me for a while she has came out of it. Now, especially when I leave town for a while with the AF, my wife keeps the shotgun and the .40 ready to go, locked up of course. When I bought my first guns, we thought it would be a good idea to hide the guns from the kids, until we realized that was the absolute worst thing we could do, curiousity would eventually get to them. So one day I had a talk with the lil ones, and laid all my guns out on the bed, and took them in there to pick them up, handle them, and ask questions, we spent a few hours talking about what they can do, as well as the fact that these are all safe right now, cuz dad made sure they were, and if they ever were curious or wanted to see one to just let me know. On a recent camping trip with some friends, I saw that it paid off. The friends that we went with aren't as open with their kids as we are, and their 8 yo son was talking with our 7 yo, and we heard their son ask ours, "Do you wanna see my dad's gun?" I was scared out of my mind until ours replied, "no, we're not allowed without my dad." I felt right then that all had paid off. My point, I guess, is that a gun is no different than any dangerous object you have in the house, knives in the drawer, gas can in the garage, or matches in a drawer. If respect is not taught for these at a young age, it amplifies the danger.
[/quote]

Good for you, Dad. Fine job. I would add only one thing - after the talk was over, we went outside and as was appropriate for various ages and sizes, did a little shooting. First round was a 12 gauge, #4's, into a 1 x 4 pine board from about ten feet. Makes an impression, after I had the kids beat on the board with a maul and hack it a bit with a hatchet.

Slug

ps, as Doxie said, one must live with the aftermath. We do that every day - the aftermath is that I am alive.


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## BritGirl (Apr 7, 2006)

Sluggo54 said:


> BritGirl: â€œIn Maryland it is extremely difficult for an everyday citizen to get a concealed carry licence. You have to have a legitimate reason eg: retired cop, business owner etc.....â€
> 
> Does Maryland also require that you demonstrate â€œlegitimate reasonâ€ to, say, register to vote? Why are analogues to the folks who work in the DMV deciding who has a â€œlegitimate reasonâ€ for a carry license?
> ps: Retired cop carry is federal. Maryland can pound sand on that one.
> ...


Sluggo54 - This is Britgirl's DH chiming in. Prior to passage of HR 218, Retired LEOs still needed to apply with Maryland State Police for CHL. Simply because HR 218 exists, retired LEOs need to adhear to the yearly qualification standards of the department from whence they retired, or a nationally certified instructor from a police department in the state/county of current residency. I am a Maryland native and retired police officer and can personally attest to the stringent standards MSP requires for the average citizen to obtain a CHL. I can't say why the state of Maryland makes it so difficult for the average citizen to protect him/herself, you'll have to take that one up with the Maryland State Police. Why do you think I got out of that state when I retired?


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

Sluggo54 - This is Britgirl's DH chiming in. Prior to passage of HR 218, Retired LEOs still needed to apply with Maryland State Police for CHL. Simply because HR 218 exists, retired LEOs need to adhear to the yearly qualification standards of the department from whence they retired, or a nationally certified instructor from a police department in the state/county of current residency. I am a Maryland native and retired police officer and can personally attest to the stringent standards MSP requires for the average citizen to obtain a CHL. I can't say why the state of Maryland makes it so difficult for the average citizen to protect him/herself, you'll have to take that one up with the Maryland State Police. Why do you think I got out of that state when I retired?
[/quote]

Sir, I can understand that perfectly. I'mnot sure why my brother continues to live there (Cooksville), though. Understand he will return to Colorado when he retires, and not sure about that, either. It is getting pretty Californicated.

BTW, thank you for your LEO service. Underappreciated and underpaid, glad you made it long enough to retire!

Sluggo


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## kjdj (Sep 14, 2004)

Lady Di said:


> We stay 'prayed up'. What can be better than that?


Problem is most fellons are not "prayed up".

And Tazer victums get out of jail.


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

kjdj said:


> We stay 'prayed up'. What can be better than that?


Problem is most fellons are not "prayed up".
[/quote]
no, but alot of them seem to find prayer after they are locked up...to bad it wasn't before they committed some GOD awful crime.(yes, pun intended but not with sarcasm)


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## shake1969 (Sep 21, 2004)

State Gun laws:

packing.org

What is remarkable is how vague and ambiguous many of the state's laws are.


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## Highlander96 (Mar 1, 2005)

Sluggo54 said:


> Sluggo54 - This is Britgirl's DH chiming in. Prior to passage of HR 218, Retired LEOs still needed to apply with Maryland State Police for CHL. Simply because HR 218 exists, retired LEOs need to adhear to the yearly qualification standards of the department from whence they retired, or a nationally certified instructor from a police department in the state/county of current residency. I am a Maryland native and retired police officer and can personally attest to the stringent standards MSP requires for the average citizen to obtain a CHL. I can't say why the state of Maryland makes it so difficult for the average citizen to protect him/herself, you'll have to take that one up with the Maryland State Police. Why do you think I got out of that state when I retired?


Sir, I can understand that perfectly. I'mnot sure why my brother continues to live there (Cooksville), though. Understand he will return to Colorado when he retires, and not sure about that, either. It is getting pretty Californicated.

BTW, thank you for your LEO service. Underappreciated and underpaid, glad you made it long enough to retire!

Sluggo
[/quote]

Brit Girl's DH....

What agency are you retired from?

MSP is a real PITA. We call it the Peoples Republic of Maryland. You should try to purchase more than one firearm at a time. I went through it in March and it took a month to clear the paperwork. I guess it is the direct reflect of 30 years of liberal rule and being a neighbor to DC. The people of Maryland are slowly getting their rights back. We finally have a stable Commandment of MSP who is actually working on getting the CCW laws loosened up. I saw a communication from the Associated Gun Clubs of Maryland regarding this issue earlier today.

I am still amazed that this thread is still going!

Happy Outbacking!

Tim

Sluggo.....Does he live in Cockeysville?


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## BritGirl (Apr 7, 2006)

Sluggo54 said:


> What agency are you retired from?


Howard County, MD I'm on disability retirement, served 14 years (10 as a narc) and being beaten around the head (left w/50 stiches) with a baseball bat and having a gun put to the back of the head will prematurely retire most people. I hated to leave, loved my job, miss my co-workers, especially my partner but the DW & I needed to get out of the rat-race called the North-East.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Brit Girls DH,

I think you made the right choice! Shot and left for dead...
You don't get too many 'Get out of jail free' cards with that one.









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

BritGirl said:


> What agency are you retired from?


Howard County, MD I'm on disability retirement, served 14 years (10 as a narc) and being beaten around the head (left w/50 stiches) with a baseball bat and having a gun put to the back of the head will prematurely retire most people. I hated to leave, loved my job, miss my co-workers, especially my partner but the DW & I needed to get out of the rat-race called the North-East.
[/quote]
so glad you got out alive and moved away, it's your only chance of "getting on". Brit Girl and I could talk for days as could you and Rick. Perhaps we'll meet one day! we could have a "Cops Past and Present Rally"!


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

"Happy Outbacking!

Tim

Sluggo.....Does he live in Cockeysville?"

Nope - Cockeysville is north of BM, Cooksville is west - just off I-70

Not for me - he has a very nice place in a semi-rural area, but 'tween the politics and the winter, I don't need it. They also have a condo in Williamsburg, which they will probably keep when they move to CO.

Sluggo



BritGirl said:


> What agency are you retired from?


Howard County, MD I'm on disability retirement, served 14 years (10 as a narc) and being beaten around the head (left w/50 stiches) with a baseball bat and having a gun put to the back of the head will prematurely retire most people. I hated to leave, loved my job, miss my co-workers, especially my partner but the DW & I needed to get out of the rat-race called the North-East.
[/quote]

Good call, guy. My kid's a cop - I had a feeling I should have gone with him tonight, but was tired and didn't. Now, I'll be up til he's in around 0330.

No idea how many times I've been shot at. Only have a count on hits - two - neither serious. One benefit of a fat a$$.

Slug


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## Doxie-Doglover (Apr 19, 2006)

Sluggo54 said:


> What agency are you retired from?


Howard County, MD I'm on disability retirement, served 14 years (10 as a narc) and being beaten around the head (left w/50 stiches) with a baseball bat and having a gun put to the back of the head will prematurely retire most people. I hated to leave, loved my job, miss my co-workers, especially my partner but the DW & I needed to get out of the rat-race called the North-East.
[/quote]

Good call, guy. My kid's a cop - I had a feeling I should have gone with him tonight, but was tired and didn't. Now, I'll be up til he's in around 0330.

No idea how many times I've been shot at. Only have a count on hits - two - neither serious. One benefit of a fat a$$.

Slug
[/quote]
When I married Rick and law enforcement I used to do the whole sitting up thing and had the scanner on all the time.All that I was doing was making myself a wreck and therefore not there for him because I was stressed and worried and it did the kids no good. After a year, I got rid of the scanner and quit waiting up.The more tired I got, the more my mind came up with what if scenarios. I figured then and now if he doesn't know what he's doing out there by now he shouldn't be there. I finally had to find my spot in this law enforcement marriage and it was and is to hold down the fort and keep things running as smooth as possible on the home front and I must say I do a damn good job of it. If any of you ever want the other perspective on law enforcement, the spouse perspective, just contact us wives. I have advice and coping mechanisms for anyone married to or related to law enforcement. Also, go ask if your pd has a ride along program, that is always an eye opener. To this day, after 20 yrs of marriage, when I ride with him, it slaps me in the face with the reality of the crap they deal with. You only need to ride once on an "activity packed" shift to grasp it. How the cops keep their sanity and times is something to be admired. Most of them are cut out for it and therefore stay, others move on before it takes a toll and yet others stay and sacrifice relationships.It a tough field to survive in for sure.
I used to get peeved when I heard people making flippant comments in my presence to get my goat. After awhile, I just joined them in what they were saying, it usually shut them up! what still tickles me is that aquaintances will ask ME law enforcement questions! too funny! how the heck would I know the answers?
Kudos to law enforcement, I truly appreciate all of you honest law abiding dedicated professionals and the people behind the scenes that make your job easier from dispatchers to us wives!


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## BritGirl (Apr 7, 2006)

Doxie-Doglover said:


> Also, go ask if your pd has a ride along program, that is always an eye opener.


Hi Doxie

Ride-alongs, eye-opener yes but sometimes an absolute hoot !!!!!









I remember doing a ride-along when DH went back on the road finally. It was Christmas Day and I don't have family in the USA so I figured I would spend 1/2 of Xmas with the DH on shift. Damn, did we have a fine day that day. Thankfully he was posted out in a fairly rural & quiet area, nothing was going on and we were a tad bored. Well I made my DH park underneath the Highway so we could watch people coming off the ramp. There was a stop sign at the bottom and everyone would blow right through it. I suggested he start doing his job and pull some of these law-breakers over. Finally he agreed (the boredom you know), someone blew the stop sign he went after them w/lights on then the sirens because they weren't pulling over, gave them a warning and sent them on their way. Anyway I got such a kick out of being in the car with the lights & sirens I made him go back so we could do it again but this time I am in charge of the lights & sirens. Cool!!! I thought it won't take long for someone else to come on through. It was around lunchtime, so Church was letting out and people were heading to relatives for the afternoon. There were plenty of cars on the road. We got to do it another 22 times that day but not one ticket was written. My DH would go up to their window, do his usual routine, run the tag etc...... then head back to the driver and say "I'm just giving you a warning this time, please be aware of the Stop sign in future. You can thank my wife that you're not getting a ticket, she says it's Christmas and everyone needs a break now & then especially on Christmas Day, so give her a wave and drive safely" Every single one of the drivers told my DH to wish me a Merry Christmas and thanked him for the warning. As it happens my DH had sat there before because of a couple a real bad accidents that happened because people blew the stop sign. So I'm glad a few more families had their Christmas intact that year. It was still a fun day, best Christmas Day we ever spent together.

BritGirl


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