# Biodiesel



## GoVols (Oct 7, 2005)

For my third tank of fuel in the new DMax I put in B20 biodiesel, blended by a local distributor with ULSD #2 and biodiesel made from Tennessee soybeans.







I love the idea of putting some $$ in the pockets of our farmers, but my first experience with the B20 has me a bit concerned. My first tank of fuel in the truck I got 16.9 MPG, and the second tank was 18 MPG, which probably had a bit more highway miles. This third tank with the B20 though -- with the same driving as the previous tank, netted me 15.8 MPG.







I have gone back to the previous station to refuel that got me the 18 MPG to see if the mileage goes back up. (Incidentally, that station is still selling LSD instead of the new guideline ULSD.)

Have any of you had experience burning a B20 blend, and did you notice any fuel mileage difference?  Have you noticed mileage differences using different stations (given the same driving style)?


----------



## 2500Ram (Oct 30, 2005)

I've experienced the same drop in mileage with B20. I was recently on a 2400 mile trip with the OB and all I could find in the Midwest was B15 or B20. Back home on dyno juice my mileage is back up again. I agree it's better for the environment, 
Americas farmers but the cost does not out weigh the reward just yet, maybe soon if the price drops for the blended fuels.


----------



## webeopelas (Mar 11, 2006)

Nature of the beast. If there was a fuel with more energy out there than petro that was as easy to produce, we would be using it already. That said, it is not a bad drop for helping the environment.

Ethanol does the same thing. Don't believe the hypesters saying it has more energy than petro. Every article with even a hint of scientific method shows that gas mileage suffers.


----------



## Fire44 (Mar 6, 2005)

I haven't tried any Bio Diesel in mine yet. I believe that GM recommends a max of 5% bio diesel for my truck. (I will check it when I go to lunch). I think that the big problem comes when you start using it in a older engine, it has cleaning properties that may bring some "stuff" from the tank to the engine. The other problem is (and this may have changed) that there is no regulation on the making of the Bio part of the Bio Diesel.

As for the ethanol mix, there are a lot of GM built vehicles that can run up to E85 (85% ethanol). If you look in the right places you will see that the fuel mileage drops by about 25% when you are running E85. Here in Delaware we are getting E10 and our fuel mileage has dropped.

Gary


----------



## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

Gary is correct on the B5 for the DMAX. It specifically states that in the supplemental manual that came with your truck. I won't advocate it but I would bet that the B5 restriction comes from testing cycles meaning that they didn't do enought B20 testing to hold the warranty intact.

I tried B5 in the summer and got lower mileage by maybe 1 MPG but actually saw a rise in the winter mileage. The easy explanation would be that it doesn't have the same BTU's as summer diesel but has more then winter diesel. I can take that explantion anyday. I would gladly take the hit if we had it. We will all have to take the hit anyways and as Gary points out most of the east coast is using E10 gasoline. A slight change of topic.

I travel to Kansas once a month on business. My bud has an E85 F150 and uses E85 religiously. If driving around town he notices little mileage loss but 10 to 15% loss in highway mileage. Now jumping on the soapbox, if the knuckleheads would lower the price on the B- diesel products and the E- gasoline products then maybe then incent us to use it. Instead they de-incent us to use it by raising the prices. Kansas has a state tax credit for using E85. Why can't the feds and the other state governments get smart as well?


----------



## GoVols (Oct 7, 2005)

There are ASTM standards for B100 production now, as well as ISO certifications, and at least here in TN the state has gotten into the act with a "BioTENN" program to promote biodiesel production and use, and they hold the suppliers to the standards. In my area the only offering is B20. I believe NJMike is correct that GM might be behind on testing of B20. The Dodge folks can jump in here, but seems I read somewhere that Dodge/Cummins approved B20 earlier this year for use in the Dodge trucks. There is also plenty of experience on the diesel forums to give me a comfort level about using B20 with no ill effects.

I'm just concerned about the MPG.


----------



## map guy (Jan 11, 2007)

5% Bio is the maximum GM allows under warranty. If you have a fuel system failure they will pull a fuel sample and send it off to the lab.

Strongly suggest you consider additional fuel filtration capacity if Bio is in your future as it acts like a cleaning solvent in the fuel tank/system. Granted your truck is still very new -over time sludge/deposits will accumulate in the fuel system using #2. Every time you put Bio in the tank this scouring action occurs.

IMHO, the Duramax's achilles heel is marginal factory fuel filtration. Factory fuel filter is ~66% effective to 2 microns. Particles in the 2-7 micron can potentially damage the fuel system. Particles 7 micron or more will damage the fuel system....

I have added an aftermarkert pre-OEM fuel filter to my truck. It wasn't cheap but it is a very clean, easily serviced design that utilizes a Cat spec filter that is rated 99% at 2 microns.

Duramax Fuel Filter

Map Guy


----------



## ChopperCop (Oct 2, 2005)

I've been running B-100 for a while in both my Excursion and in our Jetta. There is a MPG drop with the Bio-diesel. Houston Bio-diesel ( http://www.houstonbiodiesel.com/ ) is a good group of guys and a good source of information.

Bob


----------



## rms0726ea (Aug 9, 2006)

Most OEM's are OK with B5 (5%) diesel fuel. Some have approved higher mixes of biodiesel. Cummins Engine announced in March that they approved B20 (20%) blends for 2002 and later emissions compliant ISX, ISM, ISL, ISC & ISB engines. All engine OEM's say their warranties do not cover any problems caused by fuel (diesel or biodiesel). Engine warranties only cover failures of materials and workmanship of engine.

Currently there is an international standard for Biodiesel - ASTM 6751. But only 40% of the biodiesel industry in the U.S. has made the commitment to meet the ASTM standard. Although the federal government is promoting biodiesel - it has not taken the lead on any standards or quality enforcement. It has been left up to the State agencies to set biodiesel standards & quality enforcement. So once again - we as the consumers are the ones that get screwed in the end. The national biodiesel board has put together a program called BQ9000 to get manufacturers comply with the ASTM standard. But the program is voluntary at the time. The American Trucking Association is trying to get the federal government to set the standard and enforce quality. No luck yet.

So in a nutshell, there are many different types of biodiesel out there. If you can find out if your supplier is BQ9000 compliant then you have the stuff that meets the standard. Sounds like Tenn might be one of the few states on the ball.

Also, when you look at some of the major producers of ULSD (Ultra low sulfer diesel), their processes can vary greatly and can have a large effect on the product. Then you add a little bit of questionable biofuel and you could have a problem. Too many variables & unknowns. This is the basic reason for the 5% rule by OEM's. Since there is more than one standard for biodiesel they will not commit to a higher percentage.

I am not bashing biodiesel in any way or form. (I run B20 myself, from Phillips 66). Just get your fuel from a trusted supplier since nobody is looking out for you or your truck.

Lastly, biodiesel will clean out your fuel system, you will probably run through a fuel filter or two. Probably not on a new truck though.

GoVols, If you add a good diesel fuel additive you can easily increase the cetane by 5 points and get the MPG back up.


----------



## timewizard (Jun 9, 2007)

We use E85 in our truck. The mpg is 2-3 less, we get 13 mpg but we were told not to switch back and forth because it cleans your fuel system and it can plug the filter. We went on our trip to Colorado we were not able to use E85 and the exhaust pipe turned black. Now that we have been running the E85 it bright and shiny like new again.
But at $2.19/gal in our area gas is $2.89/gal you can afford to lose 3-4 mpg and its worth it. In WI it is subsidized be the state and they are going to keep it $.70-.80 less so people will use it. But like White Buffalo said it not regulated and each tank of fuel can be different. It will be interesting how the rubber parts hold up because it is very corrosive.
We get 7mpg when we haul the camper. But with it being that much cheaper its like we are getting 10mpg.









I don't know that much about biodiesel its not widely available around here. The fuel mileage decreases are similar.


----------



## phaucker (Jul 23, 2007)

It's my understanding that in the summer the amount of bio increases to around 20%. In the winter, the amount decreases to around 5%. I am told that this is because of the "gel" effect the bio has on the fuel. If they were to continue to add 20% to the fuel in the winter, that would cause the fuel to gel up very quickly. Has anyone else heard of this?


----------



## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

Hillacious,

Plenty of web sites out there to read up on Biodiesel and White Buffalo seems to be on it. Biodiesel.org is a good one which shows the local distributors all through out the nation. My understanding is that B20 wouldn't gel up that quick. B100 however would. In the southern states it isn't an issue up north you would be hard pressed to run B100 and for that reason you likely couldn't find it.

Like I said I would run it more often but the local guy is still 30 miles from me. He would sell me a 55 gallon drum but what do I do with that? I can't even unload it from the truck by myself unless I roll it off. That ain't happening!


----------



## GoVols (Oct 7, 2005)

Map Guy, did you have to add another pump with that Nictane filter inline?

White Buffalo, my goodness, look at that signature! Is there anything recognizable about that engine?







What type of fuel additive do you suggest?

The "BioTENN" program here has grant dollars available to producers and retailers, and they have to meet state standards for B20 and E85. Looks like I'm stuck between the "toe in the water" GM warranty up to B5, and the B20 that's available here in TN. If the first experiment was truly representative, then a tank full of B20 will cost me 1 day's worth of commuting (about 47 miles) versus dino diesel. The cost of the fuel is 10 cents less than #2, so unless the cetane booster costs $2.50 or less, I can't make up the mpg and still be $$ whole.

The warranty issue is really no different than if you get a bad tank of #2 with water in it. The dealer is not going to cover the cost of draining your tank and injectors, just like they are not going to cover the cost of cleaning the injection system if you mess it up with a bad tank of B20 or B100. From what I have gleaned from other sites, rubber hoses and gaskets are a non issue for vehicles manufactured after 1992.


----------



## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

GoVols,

You don't need an additional pump for that filter. Plenty more info over at Dieselplace.

Mike C


----------



## map guy (Jan 11, 2007)

GoVols 
No additional lift pump needed. My fuel system is 100% OEM from the add-on filter forward. 
White Buffalo is 100% right on fuel system failures caused by dirt, grit and water that gets past your fuel filter -no OEM is going to warranty if the failure analysis determines the cause is dirty fuel or unapproved fuel.... hence my personal need to improve the marginal OEM filtration, use an approved fuel additive and approved fuel - LSD, ULSD and or B5.

GM approved fuel additives are Stanadyne, Racor and there own. I use Stanadyne Performance Formula - it definitely helps increase the mileage by improving the cetane number in ULSD. In our area it is either ULSD or Bio. To achieve B5 I have to blend it into the tank at fillup so it doesn't usually happen.

Map Guy


----------



## rms0726ea (Aug 9, 2006)

I use Schaeffer's Diesel Treat 2000.

http://www.schaefferoil.com/fuel_additives.html

cost = approx. $1.25 a tank


----------



## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

"Kansas has a state tax credit for using E85."

Missouri has much lower taxes on ethanol; but prices are about the same as for regular. Why? 'Cause ethanol costs more delivered to the retailer. Result: Taxpayers are subsidizing the production of ethanol. Missouri has three plants running now, and more to come - at taxpayer expense, of course. Users of E85 are paying twice, in lost tax revenue that must be made up elsewhere, and in lower performance. There are still questions about the true cost of ethanol production and whether the energy produced even matches the energy consumed in that production.

The book that came with my Dmax says "no" to biodiesel. GM hasn't gone to any great trouble to tell me they've changed their mind, so I'm not using it.

Sluggo


----------



## 2500Ram (Oct 30, 2005)

Sluggo54 said:


> The book that came with my Dmax says "no" to biodiesel. GM hasn't gone to any great trouble to tell me they've changed their mind, so I'm not using it.
> 
> Sluggo


Good luck running through Nebraska and Kansas then, Seriously the ONLY diesel I could find, IF I could find it was B15-20. I pulled up to several stations that advertised Diesel on the interstate signs and come to find out they are for semi's only. I pull into on Truck station like I've done in the past, swipe my card and was denied as I wasn't a trucker and needed the new ULSD not the LSD that was being sold. My 02 does not need ULSD but "THEY" had to make is safe for "EVERYONE" I even went inside stating I'm almost empty and they would not sell me LSD.

Good luck but I'd look into additives if your driving through MN, NE, KS and IA anytime soon, I'm sure if you want to drive 15 miles off the hwy you can find normal ULSD but on the hwy it's all BIO or LSD for Semi use only.


----------



## Insomniak (Jul 7, 2006)

I don't have anything to add, but reading through this thread, I have NO idea what most of this stuff means !!

Is biodiesel the stuff that's made from recycled vegetable oil, or is that something different?

Something new for me to read up on!!


----------



## GoVols (Oct 7, 2005)

Insomniak said:


> I don't have anything to add, but reading through this thread, I have NO idea what most of this stuff means !!
> 
> Is biodiesel the stuff that's made from recycled vegetable oil, or is that something different?
> 
> Something new for me to read up on!!


The "bio" in "biodiesel" can come from numerous sources, from virgin vegetable oil, waste restaurant oil, animal fats, etc. (BTW, once they get geared up, Tyson Foods of all things, will likely be one of the top US producers of biodiesel.) Most biodiesel lobby groups, along with the federal government, say a B20 blend can be burned in diesels with no modifications necessary and no adverse effects. Many trucking companies have logged millions of miles burning biodiesel, so there is plenty of empirical evidence out there about bio's performance.


----------



## Fire44 (Mar 6, 2005)

GoVols said:


> I don't have anything to add, but reading through this thread, I have NO idea what most of this stuff means !!
> 
> Is biodiesel the stuff that's made from recycled vegetable oil, or is that something different?
> 
> Something new for me to read up on!!


The "bio" in "biodiesel" can come from numerous sources, from virgin vegetable oil, waste restaurant oil, animal fats, etc. (BTW, once they get geared up, Tyson Foods of all things, will likely be one of the top US producers of biodiesel.) Most biodiesel lobby groups, along with the federal government, say a B20 blend can be burned in diesels with no modifications necessary and no adverse effects. Many trucking companies have logged millions of miles burning biodiesel, so there is plenty of empirical evidence out there about bio's performance.
[/quote]

Are the "biodiesel lobby groups" or the "federal government" going to cover the replacement of my engine if it does cause a problem? I will follow what GM says to use and then if there is a problem they can't say that it was because of the fuel.

Gary


----------



## GoVols (Oct 7, 2005)

Fire44 said:


> Are the "biodiesel lobby groups" or the "federal government" going to cover the replacement of my engine if it does cause a problem? I will follow what GM says to use and then if there is a problem they can't say that it was because of the fuel.
> 
> Gary


I agree with you, Gary, but the same thing goes for old, or watery, or trashy #2 as well. GM's is not going to cover the damage under warranty if the fuel is bad, be it B5, B20 or straight #2. So the onus is on our backs to not get bad fuel; now I'm beginning to understand why folks are installing prefilters in their trucks (Nicktane, etc.). It's a role of the dice every time you fill up.

It's a shame, really. Here is a real opportunity to "stick it to the man", well, at least the Middle Eastern "man". I believe biodiesel is truly a viable alternative fuel, unlike E85 that has to be propped up with subsidies and is driving food prices up. But for now, I'll bite my lip and stick with GM until they catch up with the folks over at Chrysler.

Besides, it looks like I get the best mileage from LSD, and our Home Depot still sells it here.


----------



## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

GoVols,

Go to one station and stick with it. On the highway your likely pretty safe as well. When your out of your normal routine and pull into a station look for the stains of diesel on the ground. If no stains then stay away. That was some advice I had received and "knock on wood" it is working for me. Wish GM and Ford would get off their buts and do B20 testing. As for Cummins, realize that they had to do that testing since they are supporting truck fleets that are pressuring them to do the B20 testing.

Mike C


----------



## h2oman (Nov 17, 2005)

Actually, the repercussions are that more forest is being cut down to open up more area for corn fields due to the demand for methanol based fuels. The corn has to be trucked to the refineries as there are no corn pipelines. So, it's not all that great for the environment. Less forest, more fuel burning.

Secondly, the demand for the corn is driving up corn prices so that poor people who depend on the corn as their staple food are being gouged on the prices. So, it's not so great there either.

So, those of you who prefer petroleum diesel need not be made to feel guilty about using it.

John


----------



## GoVols (Oct 7, 2005)

Found this posted over on DieselPlace. It is a joint statement by all the major injector manufacturers regarding the use of biodiesel. It's a little dated, but I cannot find anything more recent that supercedes this. Since my truck has a Bosch system in it, along with GM's B5 only warning, I will grudgingly stick with dino diesel for the foreseeable future. It's a shame really; they only sell B20 in my area, and I'm not going to use two pumps every trip to fuel up and try to make my own B5 blend in the tank.

Joint Position Statement on use of FAME-Based Fuels

EDIT UPDATE

Found more recent data (October 2006). OEM position begins on slide 34: Biodiesel Trends October 2006

And this: EMA B20 Test Fuel Specs


----------

