# Sway Bars



## Tar heel Tyler

Good Afternoon All,
I am a proud owner of a Outback 312bh. I tow with a FoRd Expedition with a HV tow package. When purchased they set me up with WD bars and 1 husky anti sway friction bar. My question is would 2 bars help control the sway any better? The service manager says yes however I am reading post that says no. I really can't afford the pro pride or Hensley hitches at this point. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Tyler


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## Insomniak

First suggestion is to not believe anything a dealer tells you. A friction sway bar is absolutely inadequate for the longest, heaviest trailers that Keystone builds. Your wheelbase is very short for that length trailer so you'll need the best weight distributing and anti-sway setup you can afford. Your setup is screaming for a Hensley or Propride. Sorry....


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## love2camp

Tar heel Tyler said:


> Good Afternoon All,
> I am a proud owner of a Outback 312bh. I tow with a FoRd Expedition with a HV tow package. When purchased they set me up with WD bars and 1 husky anti sway friction bar. My question is would 2 bars help control the sway any better? The service manager says yes however I am reading post that says no. I really can't afford the pro pride or Hensley hitches at this point. Any suggestions?
> 
> Thanks,
> Tyler


Honestly the service manager should have never let you leave with that much trailer pulled behind such a short wheelbase vehicle and nothing but a friction bar sway control. I'm assuming that you at least have the extended wheelbase Expedition, but even then that trailer could easily get the best of your TV.

At the very least you need a Reese Hi-perf dual cam setup, better yet would be the PP hitch(Hensley is a dated design), or a bigger TV. Not what you want to hear, but it is cheaper than having the TV and TT in a twisted pile of junk laying in a ditch and you and your family on the way to the hospital.

That much trailer ideally should be behind a 3/4 ton long wheelbase pickup, not a SUV of any type.


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## OutbackKampers

What year Expedition do you have? 2WD or 4WD?


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## hautevue

Tar Heel Tyler: I own and use a 2008 Expedition EL (Extended Length) 4wd, factory tow package, and tow a 29'11" TT that weighs about 6200 from the factory (7200 when I'm loaded and ready to go). I'm fine. I got a Husky WDH with one friction sway bar, and have had no troubles.

BUT you're towing a 312BH, and Keystone says it's 35.5' long, and weighed 7579 pounds out the factory door. So you're towing probably 8500 pounds, and have a TT of significantly longer length with which to contend

IMHO, that's a stretch for your Expy. Please check the yellow sticker on the door frame of the Expy and verify verify verify that the regular wheel-base Expy can handle all you are giving it. Pulling (towing) weight is only one factor--hitch weight really does count when you put that WDH onto your TV and add weight to the back of the Expy. Y

You have to take into account, of course, the added load on the Expy for the driver, passengers, and "stuff" you put in the back of the Expy while towing. Generator? Gas can? and so forth.

Good luck!


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## egregg57

What everyone is saying is true. If you have the EL (extended length) Expy your in better shape but you need to take your tow capacity and subtract the weight of your loaded camper (dry weight does not include battery(s) propane, water etc) plus your packed items and family. Tow cap is estimated with full tank of gas and a driver.

The next thing is the GCVWR (Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating) the weight of both vehicles.

I used a Blue Ox WDH on my 31RQS and it worked nicely. That being said initially I did not know the questions to ask. I was initially towing with a 2000 Eddie Bauer Expy. NOT a good set up. Outbackers confirmed that. I went to a Ford F250 V10 and then to my 6.0 Diesel F350. Went to a fiver after that.

Anti sway bars are useless for your rig. If your weights can be managed and your wheel base is adequate (dont know exact model you have) you may be able to manage.

Look at equalizer, Blue-Ox.. check Craigs list, ebay, etc. This is the time of year people buy units and put them on a seasonal site and arr looking to sell a hitch used once or twice.

The Husky, other than shifting weight forward (hopefully you have at least 1,000lb bars) will not help mitigate sway for the length of trailer you have.

More details needed on you tow vehicle.

Bad or not you're asking the right questions. At a minimum you should be able to go back and tell the dealer the hitch you have is inadequate.

Hopefully this eill get better.

Eric


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## Tar heel Tyler

Thanks everyone for your honest opinions. Now that I know the tow vehicle is inadequate I am thinking of downsizing the travel trailer to a smaller version. Does anyone know of similar layouts of which an expedition with the heavy duty tow package can tow?


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## OutbackKampers

I hate to see you downsize your trailer. The 312 is such a nice layout. What year is your expedition? Do you know what the tow cap. is? 
Maybe upgrading your hitch to a dual cam would help out?


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## Tar heel Tyler

OutbackKampers said:


> I hate to see you downsize your trailer. The 312 is such a nice layout. What year is your expedition? Do you know what the tow cap. is?
> Maybe upgrading your hitch to a dual cam would help out?


It is a 2008 rated to tow 9200 lbs. As for power and temp it's great it is the sway I am concerned with. It is equipped with the heavy duty tow package


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## OutbackKampers

Tar heel Tyler said:


> I hate to see you downsize your trailer. The 312 is such a nice layout. What year is your expedition? Do you know what the tow cap. is?
> Maybe upgrading your hitch to a dual cam would help out?


It is a 2008 rated to tow 9200 lbs. As for power and temp it's great it is the sway I am concerned with. It is equipped with the heavy duty tow package
[/quote]
I bought a 2012 312BH this year. I'm towing with a 2010 Tundra double cab, rated at 9600 lbs/towing. Same as you, no problem with power. I bought a Reese dual cam hitch, and have no issue with sway. It is very comfortable towing down the road. I bought the Reese at the same time as the camper for $560. I can't say for sure that this will help you, but if you want to keep the camper, and the tow vehicle, it may be worth a shot. Good luck with whatever you decide!


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## Jewellfamily

I tow my 312 with a half ton setup (see my signature). I have a wdh with a friction bar style sway control also and its not enough sway control. Im buying an equal-l-izer brand hitch with the 4 way sway control.


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## Insomniak

I say keep the trailer, but try to get a better hitch setup. I'm guessing you've already had issues with sway, and that's why you posed your question. We still need to know whether you have the extended wheelbase Expedition, and what that wheelbase number is. With a good anti-sway and WD hitch, you may be able to add a couple of feet to what the "rules" say your maximum towing length is and get by for now. You'll likely take a big financial hit by trading in a new trailer, but the cost of a good hitch will be nothing in comparison.


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## Tar heel Tyler

Insomniak said:


> I say keep the trailer, but try to get a better hitch setup. I'm guessing you've already had issues with sway, and that's why you posed your question. We still need to know whether you have the extended wheelbase Expedition, and what that wheelbase number is. With a good anti-sway and WD hitch, you may be able to add a couple of feet to what the "rules" say your maximum towing length is and get by for now. You'll likely take a big financial hit by trading in a new trailer, but the cost of a good hitch will be nothing in comparison.


Def had issues with sway! The wheelbase is 119" we are looking at a 250rs which is 27' but would like to hold on to trailer we have. With the short wheelbase would the pro pride or Hensley even help?


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## railroader

Tar heel Tyler said:


> I say keep the trailer, but try to get a better hitch setup. I'm guessing you've already had issues with sway, and that's why you posed your question. We still need to know whether you have the extended wheelbase Expedition, and what that wheelbase number is. With a good anti-sway and WD hitch, you may be able to add a couple of feet to what the "rules" say your maximum towing length is and get by for now. You'll likely take a big financial hit by trading in a new trailer, but the cost of a good hitch will be nothing in comparison.


Def had issues with sway! The wheelbase is 119" we are looking at a 250rs which is 27' but would like to hold on to trailer we have. With the short wheelbase would the pro pride or Hensley even help?
[/quote]

I am very lucky. I just bought a 280RS, a Pro-pride hitch, and a 2012 F-150 Ecoboost with the max tow package. I've only had it on the road once, and it was a very windy day. It was great, because I could feel the truck and trailer acting as one solid unit when side winds were blowing like crazy, at least 35 mph. Later, I had to back the trailer into a tight spot. This required turning the TV at a really sharp angle to the OB. And no problem, the hitch works amazing.

Yeah, the pro-pride is a bundle of money. But it makes me feel safe.

I'm an engineering professor, soon to retire. I had never heard of Hensley or Pro-pride, and I started looking into their design.

And it turns out the design is really pretty special. I started doing some stress analysis, very simple force calculations. And I learned that the key is the trapezoid design of the hitch. Kind of hard to describe. Bottom line, I needed some convincing before I spent the cash. The calculations show that in a sidewind the trapezoid automatically locks the TV to the trailer so they're both pointing in a straight line. When this happens, the good thing is that all tires on the TV and OB work in unison to keep the rig on the road. It has to do with what Sean Woodruff calls projecting the pivot point forward. When the sidewind goes away, the hitch automatically behaves like an ordinary hitch....the trailer follows the TV around a corner. That's what the calculations show. No big surprise.

Its funny, because none of my snotty engineering professor co-workers had heard of this type of hitch either. Bunch of know-it-alls. I'm having fun taking them down a notch.

I'm making a 1/8 scale model of my truck and trailer....very simple using cheap boards. I'll let you know how it turns out. It ends up looking like the Lego model on You Tube. I need to see if my calculations make sense with reality.

Cheers


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## hautevue

railroader: You Absolutely Positively HAVE to post pictures of your model. I loved your explanation of the hitch mechanics! Thank you.


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## Tar heel Tyler

railroader said:


> I say keep the trailer, but try to get a better hitch setup. I'm guessing you've already had issues with sway, and that's why you posed your question. We still need to know whether you have the extended wheelbase Expedition, and what that wheelbase number is. With a good anti-sway and WD hitch, you may be able to add a couple of feet to what the "rules" say your maximum towing length is and get by for now. You'll likely take a big financial hit by trading in a new trailer, but the cost of a good hitch will be nothing in comparison.


Def had issues with sway! The wheelbase is 119" we are looking at a 250rs which is 27' but would like to hold on to trailer we have. With the short wheelbase would the pro pride or Hensley even help?
[/quote]

I am very lucky. I just bought a 280RS, a Pro-pride hitch, and a 2012 F-150 Ecoboost with the max tow package. I've only had it on the road once, and it was a very windy day. It was great, because I could feel the truck and trailer acting as one solid unit when side winds were blowing like crazy, at least 35 mph. Later, I had to back the trailer into a tight spot. This required turning the TV at a really sharp angle to the OB. And no problem, the hitch works amazing.

Yeah, the pro-pride is a bundle of money. But it makes me feel safe.

I'm an engineering professor, soon to retire. I had never heard of Hensley or Pro-pride, and I started looking into their design.

And it turns out the design is really pretty special. I started doing some stress analysis, very simple force calculations. And I learned that the key is the trapezoid design of the hitch. Kind of hard to describe. Bottom line, I needed some convincing before I spent the cash. The calculations show that in a sidewind the trapezoid automatically locks the TV to the trailer so they're both pointing in a straight line. When this happens, the good thing is that all tires on the TV and OB work in unison to keep the rig on the road. It has to do with what Sean Woodruff calls projecting the pivot point forward. When the sidewind goes away, the hitch automatically behaves like an ordinary hitch....the trailer follows the TV around a corner. That's what the calculations show. No big surprise.

Its funny, because none of my snotty engineering professor co-workers had heard of this type of hitch either. Bunch of know-it-alls. I'm having fun taking them down a notch.

I'm making a 1/8 scale model of my truck and trailer....very simple using cheap boards. I'll let you know how it turns out. It ends up looking like the Lego model on You Tube. I need to see if my calculations make sense with reality.

Cheers
[/quote]

Very nice explanation. I have a homework assignment for you lol! If my trailer is 35' long and I am towing with a 119" wheel base will this pro pride hitch act the same way with such a long TT and short wheelbased TV? I have pulled it multiple times with just one anti friction husky sway bar and WD bars. The TV does great until the semis show up or the crosswinds! I can pull 9200# and trailer weighs 7500 and we pack light. My dilemma is do I trade in for the 27' 6000# 250rs or drop 2k on a better anti sway system?

Thanks,

Tyler


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## Insomniak

Tar heel Tyler said:


> I say keep the trailer, but try to get a better hitch setup. I'm guessing you've already had issues with sway, and that's why you posed your question. We still need to know whether you have the extended wheelbase Expedition, and what that wheelbase number is. With a good anti-sway and WD hitch, you may be able to add a couple of feet to what the "rules" say your maximum towing length is and get by for now. You'll likely take a big financial hit by trading in a new trailer, but the cost of a good hitch will be nothing in comparison.


Def had issues with sway! The wheelbase is 119" we are looking at a 250rs which is 27' but would like to hold on to trailer we have. With the short wheelbase would the pro pride or Hensley even help?
[/quote]
Holy God, what kind of dealer let you drive off the lot with a 35 foot trailer? With that wheelbase, your maximum towing length according to the "rules" would be about 22 feet (20 feet for the first 110 inches of wheelbase and one foot for each additional four inches). I don't know if the Propride will help in such an extreme case, but there may be more opinions on the way. It will definitely be interesting to see what railroader has to show us. "Snotty engineering professor co-workers" - I love it!!!


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## Tar heel Tyler

Insomniak said:


> I say keep the trailer, but try to get a better hitch setup. I'm guessing you've already had issues with sway, and that's why you posed your question. We still need to know whether you have the extended wheelbase Expedition, and what that wheelbase number is. With a good anti-sway and WD hitch, you may be able to add a couple of feet to what the "rules" say your maximum towing length is and get by for now. You'll likely take a big financial hit by trading in a new trailer, but the cost of a good hitch will be nothing in comparison.


Def had issues with sway! The wheelbase is 119" we are looking at a 250rs which is 27' but would like to hold on to trailer we have. With the short wheelbase would the pro pride or Hensley even help?
[/quote]
Holy God, what kind of dealer let you drive off the lot with a 35 foot trailer? With that wheelbase, your maximum towing length according to the "rules" would be about 22 feet (20 feet for the first 110 inches of wheelbase and one foot for each additional four inches). I don't know if the Propride will help in such an extreme case, but there may be more opinions on the way. It will definitely be interesting to see what railroader has to show us. "Snotty engineering professor co-workers" - I love it!!!
[/quote]
If you are referring to the rule that I have seen floating around then I would need a 175" wheelbase? Do u know where they might make those? Lol that rule being wheel base divided by five


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## egregg57

This is a subject that always has really bugged me. The buyer needs to know the information. But if the buyer doesn't know the question to ask...how can they ask it? Those people in the business of selling RV's should, NO, NEED to make sure the buyer is educated!

A responsible dealer is going to tell the buyer that they don't have enough vehicle to safely tow what they are looking at! How could you sell a unit to someone that could very easily be towing a unit, way beyond what the vehicle can handle, wreck and kill someone, or several people for that matter!

It's disgusting!

I have seen on this forum, many times, the case where an excited new owner posts for the first time, is having great difficulty in towing thier new camper, then to realize that they are in an impossible position. They have a tow vehicle that is out matched by what they are trying to tow. They don't have the money to get a new tow vehicle and the dealer is not going to entertain taking the new unit back.

Cold Springs RV in NH, has a chart on line and posters in the dealership. It has every major vehicle currently and going back at least 10 years. It clearly shows what is safe to tow for each vehicle. That's responsible. That's keeping your customer safe and happy. That is going to bring the customer back. That is going to cause the customer to mention that dealership.

I for one can not imagine if I was a salesperson and sold a unit to a customer that could not possibly have a safe set up and that family was in an accident that put peoples lives in danger. Or worse yet, people died because of a sale I wanted to make.

Rant over but the the shaking of the head continues....

I am sorry you have been put in this situation...

Eric


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## Tar heel Tyler

egregg57 said:


> This is a subject that always has really bugged me. The buyer needs to know the information. But if the buyer doesn't know the question to ask...how can they ask it? Those people in the business of selling RV's should, NO, NEED to make sure the buyer is educated!
> 
> A responsible dealer is going to tell the buyer that they don't have enough vehicle to safely tow what they are looking at! How could you sell a unit to someone that could very easily be towing a unit, way beyond what the vehicle can handle, wreck and kill someone, or several people for that matter!
> 
> It's disgusting!
> 
> I have seen on this forum, many times, the case where an excited new owner posts for the first time, is having great difficulty in towing thier new camper, then to realize that they are in an impossible position. They have a tow vehicle that is out matched by what they are trying to tow. They don't have the money to get a new tow vehicle and the dealer is not going to entertain taking the new unit back.
> 
> Cold Springs RV in NH, has a chart on line and posters in the dealership. It has every major vehicle currently and going back at least 10 years. It clearly shows what is safe to tow for each vehicle. That's responsible. That's keeping your customer safe and happy. That is going to bring the customer back. That is going to cause the customer to mention that dealership.
> 
> I for one can not imagine if I was a salesperson and sold a unit to a customer that could not possibly have a safe set up and that family was in an accident that put peoples lives in danger. Or worse yet, people died because of a sale I wanted to make.
> 
> Rant over but the the shaking of the head continues....
> 
> I am sorry you have been put in this situation...
> 
> Eric


Eric, better yet where is the spec from car manufacturers saying what length your vehicle could tow? Do you think downsizing to a 27' would be any better? The sad part is I have already towed the 35' prob over 600 miles


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## CamperAndy

Tar heel Tyler said:


> Eric, better yet where is the spec from car manufacturers saying what length your vehicle could tow? Do you think downsizing to a 27' would be any better? The sad part is I have already towed the 35' prob over 600 miles


They also say a sky diver can fly,,,,till he hits the ground.

Most auto manufactures deal in dead weight loads only. Otherwise it would be impossible for them to detail what you could or could not tow. Wind resistance is one of the major factors in the stresses that the tow vehicle will have to deal with so they just leave it up to the buyer to sort it out. A 10,000 pound boat will tow much better and with less issues then a typical 10,000 pound trailer but the trailer will also tow better then a 1000 pound box that has a large flat front and a large side profile that would act as a sail.


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## CamperAndy

railroader said:


> Yeah, the pro-pride is a bundle of money. But it makes me feel safe.
> 
> I'm an engineering professor, soon to retire. I had never heard of Hensley or Pro-pride, and I started looking into their design.
> 
> And it turns out the design is really pretty special. I started doing some stress analysis, very simple force calculations. And I learned that the key is the trapezoid design of the hitch. Kind of hard to describe. Bottom line, I needed some convincing before I spent the cash. The calculations show that in a sidewind the trapezoid automatically locks the TV to the trailer so they're both pointing in a straight line. When this happens, the good thing is that all tires on the TV and OB work in unison to keep the rig on the road. It has to do with what Sean Woodruff calls projecting the pivot point forward. When the sidewind goes away, the hitch automatically behaves like an ordinary hitch....the trailer follows the TV around a corner. That's what the calculations show. No big surprise.
> 
> Its funny, because none of my snotty engineering professor co-workers had heard of this type of hitch either. Bunch of know-it-alls. I'm having fun taking them down a notch.
> 
> I'm making a 1/8 scale model of my truck and trailer....very simple using cheap boards. I'll let you know how it turns out. It ends up looking like the Lego model on You Tube. I need to see if my calculations make sense with reality.
> 
> Cheers


Feeling safe is half the battle but I hope sean did not tell you that side wind was the force that would lock the hitch linkage. He knows better then that or he should. Sway can be initialed by more then wind. The force that locks the linkage is the tensile stresses applied as the tow vehicle pulls the trailer and the trailer tries to just stay where it is. The more tensile stress the more they are locked together and the better the hitch is able to restrict sway. So just be aware that if you find yourself on a down hill run and your trailer brakes have failed, you will begin to lose sway control as the tensile stress between the TV and trailer are reduced.


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## Tar heel Tyler

CamperAndy said:


> Yeah, the pro-pride is a bundle of money. But it makes me feel safe.
> 
> I'm an engineering professor, soon to retire. I had never heard of Hensley or Pro-pride, and I started looking into their design.
> 
> And it turns out the design is really pretty special. I started doing some stress analysis, very simple force calculations. And I learned that the key is the trapezoid design of the hitch. Kind of hard to describe. Bottom line, I needed some convincing before I spent the cash. The calculations show that in a sidewind the trapezoid automatically locks the TV to the trailer so they're both pointing in a straight line. When this happens, the good thing is that all tires on the TV and OB work in unison to keep the rig on the road. It has to do with what Sean Woodruff calls projecting the pivot point forward. When the sidewind goes away, the hitch automatically behaves like an ordinary hitch....the trailer follows the TV around a corner. That's what the calculations show. No big surprise.
> 
> Its funny, because none of my snotty engineering professor co-workers had heard of this type of hitch either. Bunch of know-it-alls. I'm having fun taking them down a notch.
> 
> I'm making a 1/8 scale model of my truck and trailer....very simple using cheap boards. I'll let you know how it turns out. It ends up looking like the Lego model on You Tube. I need to see if my calculations make sense with reality.
> 
> Cheers


Feeling safe is half the battle but I hope sean did not tell you that side wind was the force that would lock the hitch linkage. He knows better then that or he should. Sway can be initialed by more then wind. The force that locks the linkage is the tensile stresses applied as the tow vehicle pulls the trailer and the trailer tries to just stay where it is. The more tensile stress the more they are locked together and the better the hitch is able to restrict sway. So just be aware that if you find yourself on a down hill run and your trailer brakes have failed, you will begin to lose sway control as the tensile stress between the TV and trailer are reduced.
[/quote]
Do you think reducing down to a 27' tt would make a huge difference and knocking off approx 1800#?


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## Scoutr2

I'll bet that the dealer never gave you the box that the friction sway control came in, nor the directions for installation and usage. If they had, you would have seen the warnings about that device not being recommended for trailer over 23 feet. I used to have one on my popup and it worked well there. On my Outback it would be useless.

If you want sway control, purchase an Equal-i-zer brand of weight6-distributing hitch. That hitch has sway control built into its design and I can attest to its great performance.

But you are going to fight the mis-match between TV and trailer, with the short wheelbase of your TV.

Just my opinion.

Mike


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## Insomniak

Tar heel Tyler said:


> I say keep the trailer, but try to get a better hitch setup. I'm guessing you've already had issues with sway, and that's why you posed your question. We still need to know whether you have the extended wheelbase Expedition, and what that wheelbase number is. With a good anti-sway and WD hitch, you may be able to add a couple of feet to what the "rules" say your maximum towing length is and get by for now. You'll likely take a big financial hit by trading in a new trailer, but the cost of a good hitch will be nothing in comparison.


Def had issues with sway! The wheelbase is 119" we are looking at a 250rs which is 27' but would like to hold on to trailer we have. With the short wheelbase would the pro pride or Hensley even help?
[/quote]
Holy God, what kind of dealer let you drive off the lot with a 35 foot trailer? With that wheelbase, your maximum towing length according to the "rules" would be about 22 feet (20 feet for the first 110 inches of wheelbase and one foot for each additional four inches). I don't know if the Propride will help in such an extreme case, but there may be more opinions on the way. It will definitely be interesting to see what railroader has to show us. "Snotty engineering professor co-workers" - I love it!!!
[/quote]
If you are referring to the rule that I have seen floating around then I would need a 175" wheelbase? Do u know where they might make those? Lol that rule being wheel base divided by five
[/quote]
Lol, don't think you'll find one of those - that's why I refer to the rules as "rules". I forgot to post the rest of my reply as I tried to stumble through an iPad response! I'm not sure where the "rules" came from, or if they are even scientifically valid. I guess they give the user a place to start and are at least a frame of reference. It's also been said that a good hitch with anti-sway capabilities will add to the maximum allowable length. How to quantify that is the hard part, but look at what hitches like the Hensley and Propride do - they take those rules and throw them out the window. When we first started towing, I was using my wife's Sequoia, which is a short wheelbase SUV. I was pulling our little 22 foot very first trailer without weight distribution OR sway control. I learned VERY quickly what can happen when a semi blows by, or when you speed up to 65 mph to pass a slow truck. Not pretty and one time I thought the trailer was going to flip. Adding a Reese WD hitch and Dual Cam anti-sway made a world of difference. I currently have a wheelbase of 145 inches (soon to be 160") and I'm pulling a 33-1/2 foot trailer, so I'm over what the rule says by about 4 feet. The setup is extremely stable and I basically never worry about sway. I'd be willing to bet that if you invested $600 in an Equalizer or Reese Dual Cam hitch that you would be amazed at the difference. Even if you do downsize the trailer, you could still use that same hitch and travel down the road in a lot better shape.


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## egregg57

Tar heel Tyler said:


> This is a subject that always has really bugged me. The buyer needs to know the information. But if the buyer doesn't know the question to ask...how can they ask it? Those people in the business of selling RV's should, NO, NEED to make sure the buyer is educated!
> 
> A responsible dealer is going to tell the buyer that they don't have enough vehicle to safely tow what they are looking at! How could you sell a unit to someone that could very easily be towing a unit, way beyond what the vehicle can handle, wreck and kill someone, or several people for that matter!
> 
> It's disgusting!
> 
> I have seen on this forum, many times, the case where an excited new owner posts for the first time, is having great difficulty in towing thier new camper, then to realize that they are in an impossible position. They have a tow vehicle that is out matched by what they are trying to tow. They don't have the money to get a new tow vehicle and the dealer is not going to entertain taking the new unit back.
> 
> Cold Springs RV in NH, has a chart on line and posters in the dealership. It has every major vehicle currently and going back at least 10 years. It clearly shows what is safe to tow for each vehicle. That's responsible. That's keeping your customer safe and happy. That is going to bring the customer back. That is going to cause the customer to mention that dealership.
> 
> I for one can not imagine if I was a salesperson and sold a unit to a customer that could not possibly have a safe set up and that family was in an accident that put peoples lives in danger. Or worse yet, people died because of a sale I wanted to make.
> 
> Rant over but the the shaking of the head continues....
> 
> I am sorry you have been put in this situation...
> 
> Eric


Eric, better yet where is the spec from car manufacturers saying what length your vehicle could tow? Do you think downsizing to a 27' would be any better? The sad part is I have already towed the 35' prob over 600 miles
[/quote]

I don't know that there is. I know the information is out there. i have used it. There have been studies done and a quick search here on this site will produce the link and/or page, and also on the web.

I hope you understand that I am not inferring that any of this is your fault. There is a big chunk of information missing to help the average person understand what is "Safe" to tow with thier vehicle, what ever vehicle that is.

Eric


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## Tar heel Tyler

egregg57 said:


> This is a subject that always has really bugged me. The buyer needs to know the information. But if the buyer doesn't know the question to ask...how can they ask it? Those people in the business of selling RV's should, NO, NEED to make sure the buyer is educated!
> 
> A responsible dealer is going to tell the buyer that they don't have enough vehicle to safely tow what they are looking at! How could you sell a unit to someone that could very easily be towing a unit, way beyond what the vehicle can handle, wreck and kill someone, or several people for that matter!
> 
> It's disgusting!
> 
> I have seen on this forum, many times, the case where an excited new owner posts for the first time, is having great difficulty in towing thier new camper, then to realize that they are in an impossible position. They have a tow vehicle that is out matched by what they are trying to tow. They don't have the money to get a new tow vehicle and the dealer is not going to entertain taking the new unit back.
> 
> Cold Springs RV in NH, has a chart on line and posters in the dealership. It has every major vehicle currently and going back at least 10 years. It clearly shows what is safe to tow for each vehicle. That's responsible. That's keeping your customer safe and happy. That is going to bring the customer back. That is going to cause the customer to mention that dealership.
> 
> I for one can not imagine if I was a salesperson and sold a unit to a customer that could not possibly have a safe set up and that family was in an accident that put peoples lives in danger. Or worse yet, people died because of a sale I wanted to make.
> 
> Rant over but the the shaking of the head continues....
> 
> I am sorry you have been put in this situation...
> 
> Eric


Eric, better yet where is the spec from car manufacturers saying what length your vehicle could tow? Do you think downsizing to a 27' would be any better? The sad part is I have already towed the 35' prob over 600 miles
[/quote]

I don't know that there is. I know the information is out there. i have used it. There have been studies done and a quick search here on this site will produce the link and/or page, and also on the web.

I hope you understand that I am not inferring that any of this is your fault. There is a big chunk of information missing to help the average person understand what is "Safe" to tow with thier vehicle, what ever vehicle that is.

Eric
[/quote]
I guess going by the rule of thumb for 110" for 20' and for every 4" you get another foot doesn't make sense to me really. I mean wouldn't that put most semi trucks at a unsafe towing advantage? I think the more I look at the propride hitch the more I realize the importance of the pivot point. I appreciate all of the replies. I am going to start a propride hitch fund for those that would like to contribute lol.


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## CamperAndy

Tar heel Tyler said:


> I guess going by the rule of thumb for 110" for 20' and for every 4" you get another foot doesn't make sense to me really. I mean wouldn't that put most semi trucks at a unsafe towing advantage? I think the more I look at the propride hitch the more I realize the importance of the pivot point. I appreciate all of the replies. I am going to start a propride hitch fund for those that would like to contribute lol.


The rule of thumb is based on bumper pull. Not fifth wheel (semi) configuration. The propride is intended to simulate the pivot point of the fifth wheel configuration.


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## clarkely

You will feel safer with a propride or hesley with which ever trailer you finally end up with....... I have one and pulled a 32'8 trailer with a 1/2 ton (130" wheel base) and it was night and day .......... i also pulled my 310BHS (35'10" plus propride length plus boxes on the back make us even longer) with a 3/4 ton suburban 13" wheel base - no issues what so ever - did that for two years including 2400 mile fla round trip.........

I have since upgraded to a 3/4 ton diesel - and there is no substitution or torque - i still use the propride and love it and recommend to anyone!! I would say the same of the similar hensley design.

as far as the wheel base discussion - i am 167.5" crew cab long bed silverado duramax - i believe the ford crew long bed is 174" so you can get close to that magic wheelbase number









Sean is well aware of forces that initiate sway - it is his whole career and business.

i would like to see the model as well - that would be a hoot









End of the day you won't go wrong with the Hitch - and i think he has a 30 day return policy......... also at the end of the day i think you will like it and feel comfortable ........... and then you will feel underpowered....and as time goes on you will probably begin to realize that you are putting a major strain in the transmission - that yes truck has enough power - but transmission simply isnt built strong enough to handle and sustain over time...........you also need ot consider how far and geographically where you plan to travel....

A larger capable TV opens up a lot of options to travel.........

IMHO you have to decide whether you want to down size the trailer or up size the truck - and which will you be happiest with .......... and even in downsizing the trailer you will want/need something better than a friction sway bar.

Good luck in your decision making process - I know it is not easy and i also know (our floor plan is the same) that i love the floor plan!!! It is perfect for our family of 6.

Clarke


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## wolverine

I saw this van in Pigeon Forge last year. The springs on the van were maxed out and they had no WD hitch or sway control. I wonder if they even had a brake controller. Some people think they can pull anything. I have a cousin who is a mechanic and lives in Colorado. He came to Michigan 2 years ago and pulled his 28' travel trailer with his 2500HD Duramax. I happend to look at his WD hitch and he had trunion style hitch with no sway control. He said with his truck he did not need any sway control and he has never had a problem. I told him that I disagreed and I found out quickly that there is no sense in arguing with a mechanic.


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## NorskBoy

Ok. So talking about dealers responsibilities.

The DW and I went to a rv show a few months ago and fell in love with a 25 foot travel trailer with a rear slide and a side slide. We put our money down and were ready to go. Well the dealer got busy and seemed to be dragging their feet, so the DW started looking around ( she can be fickle). Well she found another trailer, the 250RS. Wow! Same layout and better options. So we jumped ship, got our money back and started working with the local Camping World (Burlington, Wa). We spent a week or two negotiating a deal. I had a good RV show deal+ on the other trailer and wanted the same deal on the 250 RS. They finally agreed after going back and forth to the manager multiple times.

Now realize I have not met the sales guy face to face, this has all been done via phone and email. They did not even have a 250 RS in stock. We were buying it sight unseen.

So we finally reach agreement and we are discussing the final details, when my sales guy slips in the big question. "By the way... What kind of tow vehicle do you have?". So I answer his email and let him know that I have a "2005 Volvo station wagon 4wd!". I push send and wait... And wait... And wait. Finally about an hour later my phone rings, its my sales guy... I answered the phone and there is this stuttering sales guy on the phone. He starts to tell me about Camping Worlds commitment to safety and that my 2005 Volvo SW is not a proper tow vehicle for a 250RS. I tell him he must be wrong because the Brochure says that the 250 RS is 1/2 ton towable and my Volvo weighs at least a 1/2 a ton...

I let him sweat for a while and finally came clean that my TV is a heavy duty dodge 3/4 ton mega cab diesel. He told me he sweated over a reply via email for an hour and finally decided to just call. I feel bad about giving him a hard time but still chuckle whenever I think about it. I guess I don't feel too bad.

In any event he was willing to undo the deal when he thought the TV was not appropriate. So kudos to Camping World.

NorskBoy

P.S. we picked up our 250 RS 6 weeks ago and my DW will not let me put it in storage. She loves it in the driveway so she can visit it regularly even though it blocks her bay of the Garage.


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## Insomniak

When we finalized the deal on our 301BQ last year, the sales guy asked me what I would be towing with and I told him "a Smart Car". He replied "as long as it's the diesel version".


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## Tar heel Tyler

Insomniak said:


> When we finalized the deal on our 301BQ last year, the sales guy asked me what I would be towing with and I told him "a Smart Car". He replied "as long as it's the diesel version".


Those are great stories. We told our sales guy what we were using. I called the service dept. last week and he said before I spend a lot of money just add another anti sway friction bar to the other side? And I thought would that really help the situation? And now 30 responses later and lots of research I am flipping a coin on keeping the 312bh and buying a Hensley or PP or downgrading to a 27' 250rs? I really have no clue what the best decision would be? The bottom line is safety for me and my family!


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## clarkely

Tar heel Tyler said:


> When we finalized the deal on our 301BQ last year, the sales guy asked me what I would be towing with and I told him "a Smart Car". He replied "as long as it's the diesel version".


Those are great stories. We told our sales guy what we were using. I called the service dept. last week and he said before I spend a lot of money just add another anti sway friction bar to the other side? And I thought would that really help the situation? And now 30 responses later and lots of research I am flipping a coin on keeping the 312bh and buying a Hensley or PP or downgrading to a 27' 250rs? I really have no clue what the best decision would be? The bottom line is safety for me and my family!
[/quote]

I feel your pain - i bought the propride for a long trip to disney from pa - i bought it with the mindset i was putting our family in the safest set up possible ..... and that if ididnt see/feel/notice the benefits of the propride i would sell it and probably only realize a loss of 700.00 - figuring that was money well spent on my families safety - i feel it is still safest for my family and am using 4 years later.......


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## railroader

hautevue said:


> railroader: You Absolutely Positively HAVE to post pictures of your model. I loved your explanation of the hitch mechanics! Thank you.


Will do. It'll take a couple weeks for me to complete...a little at a time.


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## railroader

CamperAndy said:


> Yeah, the pro-pride is a bundle of money. But it makes me feel safe.
> 
> I'm an engineering professor, soon to retire. I had never heard of Hensley or Pro-pride, and I started looking into their design.
> 
> And it turns out the design is really pretty special. I started doing some stress analysis, very simple force calculations. And I learned that the key is the trapezoid design of the hitch. Kind of hard to describe. Bottom line, I needed some convincing before I spent the cash. The calculations show that in a sidewind the trapezoid automatically locks the TV to the trailer so they're both pointing in a straight line. When this happens, the good thing is that all tires on the TV and OB work in unison to keep the rig on the road. It has to do with what Sean Woodruff calls projecting the pivot point forward. When the sidewind goes away, the hitch automatically behaves like an ordinary hitch....the trailer follows the TV around a corner. That's what the calculations show. No big surprise.
> 
> Its funny, because none of my snotty engineering professor co-workers had heard of this type of hitch either. Bunch of know-it-alls. I'm having fun taking them down a notch.
> 
> I'm making a 1/8 scale model of my truck and trailer....very simple using cheap boards. I'll let you know how it turns out. It ends up looking like the Lego model on You Tube. I need to see if my calculations make sense with reality.
> 
> Cheers


Feeling safe is half the battle but I hope sean did not tell you that side wind was the force that would lock the hitch linkage. He knows better then that or he should. Sway can be initialed by more then wind. The force that locks the linkage is the tensile stresses applied as the tow vehicle pulls the trailer and the trailer tries to just stay where it is. The more tensile stress the more they are locked together and the better the hitch is able to restrict sway. So just be aware that if you find yourself on a down hill run and your trailer brakes have failed, you will begin to lose sway control as the tensile stress between the TV and trailer are reduced.
[/quote]

Right you are.


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## railroader

Tar heel Tyler said:


> I say keep the trailer, but try to get a better hitch setup. I'm guessing you've already had issues with sway, and that's why you posed your question. We still need to know whether you have the extended wheelbase Expedition, and what that wheelbase number is. With a good anti-sway and WD hitch, you may be able to add a couple of feet to what the "rules" say your maximum towing length is and get by for now. You'll likely take a big financial hit by trading in a new trailer, but the cost of a good hitch will be nothing in comparison.


Def had issues with sway! The wheelbase is 119" we are looking at a 250rs which is 27' but would like to hold on to trailer we have. With the short wheelbase would the pro pride or Hensley even help?
[/quote]

I am very lucky. I just bought a 280RS, a Pro-pride hitch, and a 2012 F-150 Ecoboost with the max tow package. I've only had it on the road once, and it was a very windy day. It was great, because I could feel the truck and trailer acting as one solid unit when side winds were blowing like crazy, at least 35 mph. Later, I had to back the trailer into a tight spot. This required turning the TV at a really sharp angle to the OB. And no problem, the hitch works amazing.

Yeah, the pro-pride is a bundle of money. But it makes me feel safe.

I'm an engineering professor, soon to retire. I had never heard of Hensley or Pro-pride, and I started looking into their design.

And it turns out the design is really pretty special. I started doing some stress analysis, very simple force calculations. And I learned that the key is the trapezoid design of the hitch. Kind of hard to describe. Bottom line, I needed some convincing before I spent the cash. The calculations show that in a sidewind the trapezoid automatically locks the TV to the trailer so they're both pointing in a straight line. When this happens, the good thing is that all tires on the TV and OB work in unison to keep the rig on the road. It has to do with what Sean Woodruff calls projecting the pivot point forward. When the sidewind goes away, the hitch automatically behaves like an ordinary hitch....the trailer follows the TV around a corner. That's what the calculations show. No big surprise.

Its funny, because none of my snotty engineering professor co-workers had heard of this type of hitch either. Bunch of know-it-alls. I'm having fun taking them down a notch.

I'm making a 1/8 scale model of my truck and trailer....very simple using cheap boards. I'll let you know how it turns out. It ends up looking like the Lego model on You Tube. I need to see if my calculations make sense with reality.

Cheers
[/quote]

Very nice explanation. I have a homework assignment for you lol! If my trailer is 35' long and I am towing with a 119" wheel base will this pro pride hitch act the same way with such a long TT and short wheelbased TV? I have pulled it multiple times with just one anti friction husky sway bar and WD bars. The TV does great until the semis show up or the crosswinds! I can pull 9200# and trailer weighs 7500 and we pack light. My dilemma is do I trade in for the 27' 6000# 250rs or drop 2k on a better anti sway system?

Thanks,

Tyler
[/quote]

You know, I don't have the answer, because it'll take some time to dig into the calculations and I'm really busy at work now....working evenings and weekends. Poor me. I'm lucky to have a job.

My gut feel is the pro pride hitch will act much the same way.

Basically, what I have is a spreadsheet where I enter a bunch of dimensions on my TV and OB, and then it calculates lateral forces on each axle (two for the TV and I assumed only one axle for the OB); as well as axial forces along the two connecting bars on the hitch (the bars form the left and right sides of the trapezoid). And so, all these forces change when different dimensions for the TV and OB are entered in.

The spreadsheet is a gross simplification as it's intended to give a rough estimate of how each force responds to a sidewind.....and changes in the dimensions of the TV and OB. For a baseline case, the model assumes the trailer and TV are both parked, hitched up and parallel. Also, the sidewind is assumed to be at a constant speed everywhere on the side wall of the trailer....this makes it easier to estimate the net force on the side of the trailer as a function of wind speed. A rough estimate, yes, but it gives me a "feel" for how all the forces respond to changes in wind speed. And what's interesting is that force increases as the square of the wind speed.....which means big increases in force can result from relatively small increases in the wind speed. No wonder I get better mileage when I drive at 55 mph instead of 70.

Anyway, as you can see, I can go on and on.

When I get more time, I'll check the model to see how changing the wheelbase influences the forces. Bottom line: all the dimensions I plug into the model play a role in controlling forces. They all act in unison, so to speak. So to single out the wheelbase....well I don't know how it'll look. More later....

Cheers


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