# Another "can I Pull This With That?" Question



## not_yet (Jun 2, 2006)

We are considering moving up from a PUP to an Outback 21RS. We love the floor plan and need the rear side to reduce size for parking at my house. We would really like to become outbacker. I have a few questions.

1)	My TV is a Dodge RAM 1500, 5.9L V8, manual say its rated to 7700#â€™s and 750#â€™s tongue wt. I know the drill about GCWR and the like, but what I want is real world advice. The 21RS is 4300# dry and a GVWR of 6000#â€™s, TW at 425#. I always assume Iâ€™ll be at the GVWR, but I will never tow with water in any of the tanks. Based on some post Iâ€™ve read, and they make sense, the real tow capability of a Â½ ton after people and cargo, and maybe hitting another tow limit on the TV, can easily drop to 6000# in real life use. I plan to get a WDH and sway, and Iâ€™m pretty sure Iâ€™m OK on flats and most hills. I plan to test tow the TT, but it will be in flat land. Will the way the TW pulls away from a stop be any indication on how well it will BACK UP a hill?

2) And another question is, this is a close call in my mind, but the TT specs says its made for a Â½ ton. What do you think? Anyone with a similar setup?

3)	I would not worry so much about this, but I have to back it UP my driveway, which is moderately steep. I know backing up the PUP was way harder on our other TV, the van. It had a MUCH harder time backing it up than pulling it up. The question is, does the TW have LESS capability in reverse?

4)	Iâ€™ve tried to read up on WDHâ€™s. I plan to get an Equalizer or reese DC, I assume the 1000# bar will be enough?

Oh, and another question, Iâ€™m trying to determine if Iâ€™m going to bottom out the rear bumper on my inclined driveway. Problem is, I need a side diagram of the TT and some dimensions on it, which I have never seen for any model of RV. Any way to determine how much slope change the rear of the TT can take?

Do those frames caster wheels work, or is that asking for a bend frame?

Anyone, know of a used 21rs for sale?????????? We are looking.


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## mountainlady56 (Feb 13, 2006)

HI!
Looking at the specs on keystonerv.com, the 21RS has a dry weight of 4545 with a carrying capacity of 1955#, and tongue weight of 360. If you don't plan to overkill the load on it, by not filling the tanks, etc., I think you should do fine. I had the 5.3 V8 and while my GMC would tow the 27RSDS (dry weight of 5860 and tongue weight of 570), in hills and stuff, I had problems. However, with the difference in length and weight, along with a heavier engine (and I'm sure you have the towing package and will get the weight distributing bars and sway friction control), I don't think you'll have a problem. Check out "For Sale" forum.....there was one on there, awhile back, but don't know where you're located. Also rvtradersonline.com. Good luck!! sunny 
Take care!
Darlene


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## HootBob (Apr 26, 2004)

I would think you should be fine as long as you don't overload the TT
don't to include fuel, passengers and any cargo weight in the truck
As for bottom out on the driveway a couple of people has had their axles flipped for more clearance

Don


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## Highlander96 (Mar 1, 2005)

not_yet said:


> Anyone, know of a used 21rs for sale?????????? We are looking.
> [snapback]119772[/snapback]​


I am pretty sure my old 21RS is still at the dealer in MD where we traded for our 28RSDS. Not sure where you are, but I figured I would answer.....

I don't think you specified what gears you have in the truck. That will make a difference with towing. I would hope you can tow the 21RS with a safe margin.

I would suggest the Equalizer due to the lower tongue weight of the 21RS. The Reese Dual Cam needs more tongue weight to be effective. JMHO.

Happy Outbacking!

Tim


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

Wow, first you might have to consider changing the name. We have a member named NotYet, so this could get confusing.







Slightly different but....

Welcome to the Forum action action

Camping479 has basically your set up in question except he has a Tahoe. He pulls a 21 and switched to a Equalizer and is happy. He also had the driveway angle problem and had his axles flipped. If he does not see this, pm him direct and ask

John


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## GoVols (Oct 7, 2005)

What rear end gear ratio do you have?
Does the truck have a separate transmission oil cooler?
The Equalizer is a great hitch. You may be better served skipping the 600# bars and going to the 1000#.


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

You shold be fine towing that Outback. I tow my 21RS with a Toyota Tundra Double Cab, ran the numbers a million times and I couldn't imagine a "normal" scenario where you would get up to GVWR or GCWR.I will weight mine but haven't yet.

Your ulitmate performance will be based on your rear. If it is low then you will be revving pretty high going up hills to stay at 60MPH. So slow down to 55 or 50. It isn't a race anyhow.

Check eBay for used trailers. Where do you live, for me it would be worth it to take the drive to Lakeshore RV in Michigan. Before I bought my 21RS. I found a 2 year old 21RS on eBay for $12.8 but a brand new one at Lakeshore for $15K even. I had to beat the last couple hundred $$$ out of them but they are some pretty fair folks. No brainer since I don't have to worry about how the previous owner took care of it.

Best of luck!


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## not_yet (Jun 2, 2006)

Thanks all.

I hope to change our name from not_yet, to we_did_it or something. Don't want to step on any toes.......

I have no idea the gearing, anyway to know for sure? I have the tow package, and O/D off switch in the cab. Is the gear in the manual, stamped on the diff and how big of a job is it to change? And how large of a job is an axal flip? Warrenty effect?

E-bay is where we found Lakeshore, and we are really consideringdriving there (595 miles), or deleivery. All good words about Lakeshore here. I think if we can get her to get the 06 (07's are out) down to around $13000, we are going to get it. I could find nothing bad written about lakeshore.

The only issue is that the local dealer will let me test tow so I would feel better. But I could save about $4000 at laskeshore. We may very well got that way.

Thanks for all the great resonses. You outbackers are great group and we can not wait to "really" join. We think is the best TT out there by a long margin.

Thanks,
not_yet, soon to be we_did_it_in_AL.........

I did not mention the truck just passed 100K miles but is in excellent condition.

I may want a trans temp gauge as well, and yes, the equalizer hitch.

Thanks for the advice and please keep it comming.


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## GeoWalls (Jun 3, 2006)

Welcome, I have the 21rs and have towed it for 3 years now with 2 different vehicles. I would think that you shouldn't have a problem towing it. Although maybe a little slower as in the previous post. Rear end gearing does make a pretty big difference. You should be able to ask a mechanic about the ratio, I would even try looking online to find it. It should be written somewhere on the axel. I found mine on the first TV by getting underneath and looking. But with the tow package installed you should have a lower ratio I think. I was really concerned about weight and towing issues when I got mine also. But I will say the 21rs tows like a dream I highly recommend the Equalizer with the #1000 bars, I have never had a single problem with sway. My wife will even drive with it behind. A little long winded but hope it helps some. Jeff


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## Reggie44 (Aug 12, 2005)

Hi we have the 21RS and tow with the F150 supercrew. Our tow rating is 7700#. Our TV tows it fine. I hit the scales on Wednesday night bringing it back from the dealers semi empty. It was 4400# on the tires add in 3/4 hundred pounds for hitch weight to come at about 5000#. Loaded for a trip we would probably add to the trailer and TV another 7/8 hundred pounds. I am a novice at towing, only towed the big trailer (to me) for less than a year. I recommend the prodigy as your brake controller, just for that extra piece of mind. Regarding your driveway I had the same problem only in reverse (we have to back down a significant slope. Looked at changing the driveway, flipping the axle. But for me the the solution was to replace the tow hitch with a drop hitch. It lowered the front of the trailer a good 6 inches and raised the back enough to get down my driveway. You may want to spend $30 on a hitch and try that first. The only draw back is you have to change hitches in and out of your driveway. JR


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

First of all...

action *Welcome to Outbackers, not_yet!* action 
It is smart of you to ask questions first, and buy later.









I think you are going to be just fine with that combination. The Ram should easily handle a 21RS. If it couldn't, I think Dodge would have some explaining to do!

1,000 pound bars on the Equal-i-zer should work well with that combination.

As far as backing up your driveway, I am not a big fan of the rear casters myself. If needed, I would recommend the axle flip conversion. As short as that trailer is, however, I would think it would take a pretty steep driveway before that is an issue.

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## huntr70 (Jul 8, 2005)

Not sure what year your Dodge is, but mine has the gearing listed on a label under the hood.

It is actually on the underside of the hood. It lists axles, gears, color codes, etc.

You should be fine. I have the 360 V8 and pull the 28BHS...it isn't a perfect scenario, but it is what it is right now.

Steve


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## Scooter (May 9, 2005)

Ok here was my real world experience when I was towing the 21rs with my ford f-150.

Here were my calculations:

Truck Actuals
Curb = 4744 lbs
anticipated payload = 1000 lbs (driver, passenger gas , tounge weight)
GVWR = 6500 lbs
under GVWR by 756 lbs
-------------------------------------------
Trailer actuals
21RS curb (dry)= 4130 including all options
camping supplies 1000 lbs
total Actuals = 5130 lbs
Max Tow = 7500 lbs
80% max tow = 6000
under *My* 80% max tow rule by 870 lbs _Edited to add the word my here_ (for some it's a guideline for me and my families safety it's a rule) 
------------------------------------------------
Max GCWR = 12,500
My Actuals = 10,874
1,626 lbs to spare fully loaded.

When I ran the numbers for my 5.4 f-150 4x4 supercab , 3:55, 17" Rims I was within parameters of my 80% max tow rule but gotta tell ya after towing all last year Sherry and I decided not to stray too far from home. We live in Vermont very mountainous , were planning a Maine trip , and though the motor was willing the tranny and 3.55 gears were not . Terrain played a big roll in our real world decision to bite the bullet and move up to a f250.

Side note , I found TG weight and TT dry weight was not as advertised. Search posts to find others who have informed with regards to their actuals. I found TT dry weight off by approx 300lbs.
Hope this helps. 
Dave


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## not_yet (Jun 2, 2006)

Thanks everyone, outbackers are so great.

I found out more. Turns out it does NOT have the towing package. Class III hitch, O/D off in cab, I'll get a HD battery. And, I will get a trans cooler. Full size tire is there. What else should concern me? It does have 100K miles, but is in great shape.

I looked under the hood and it says a ratio of 3.5. The tires are the higher rated tires and one size two large which will also have an effect. Its this an exceptable setup? Does larger tires increase or decrease this ratio?

Thanks for any help!


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

Drive to Lakeshore ,camp on the way home. That is what I did!

For some that is trial by fire but prepare well, keep your wits about you and it will be real fun. Th3 $500 you spend on shipping would more then likely pay for your trip. I can't take credit for the idea though. It was my wife's. Guess a Master's in Finance does come in handy.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

not_yet said:


> Thanks everyone, outbackers are so great.
> 
> I found out more. Turns out it does NOT have the towing package. Class III hitch, O/D off in cab, I'll get a HD battery. And, I will get a trans cooler. Full size tire is there. What else should concern me? It does have 100K miles, but is in great shape.
> 
> ...


not_yet,

You know what I said earlier, about being fine and all that...









I have to tell you, based on the information we now have, I don't see that as quite such a slam dunk anymore. The good news is, the 21RS is not a heavy trailer. If you can pull anything, you can pull that.

The bad news is the rear end ratio. That is fuel mileage gearing, not towing gearing. Not saying you will not be OK, but your margin is way reduced. The increased tire diameter will also have an effect, and it - unfortunately - is not for the better.

Other people with an actual setup closer to what you are talking about, will be able to make this call better than I, but the first thing I would do is get a set of stock size tires and wheels to use when towing. Then, maybe consider changing the rear end ratio in the truck to at least a 3.73, and preferrably a 4.10. (That can get expensive if you have four wheel drive, as you must change the gearing in the front and rear differentials).

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## GoVols (Oct 7, 2005)

You didn't mention where you are from. There are dealers out there that will match Lakeshore's price if you just ask, plus they may be closer to you. I was coming close to buying from Lakeshore when I found a dealer closer to me that gave me a great deal. Still a 200 mile drive, but a lot less than driving to Michigan. You can generally get good deals from dealers in or near Indiana where the OBs are produced.


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

OOOps,

Like Doug said didn't see your gear ratio. 3.55 is probably down to 3.42 or less with your tire change. You live in Alabama and all of your neighboring states have hills, GA , AR , TN. You may struggle some. Go back to your original tire size.

Since the truck has 100,000 miles on it i,t is not owing you anything then don't make it owe you any by sinking more money into it.

I would do a full trans flush, the tires, and put on a trans cooler. The guage isn't required. If you run hot with a big cooler then you are either pushing it to hard or have a mismatched TV\TT setup. More than likely the latter.

Drive that old boy into the ground! The Rear end is a considerable expense which saves what a 100,000 mile trans????

That is what I would do, unless you are somehow convinced that you can get another 4 to 5 years out of it.


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## mountainlady56 (Feb 13, 2006)

NJMikeC said:


> OOOps,
> You live in Alabama and all of your neighboring states have hills, GA , AR , TN. You may struggle some.
> [snapback]119966[/snapback]​


You ain't just whistlin' Dixie, there!! The hills in S. GA, even can be killers!! BTW, you might check with Crawfish and ee4308 on where they got their units. They both live in the Dothan/Enterprise area!!
Darlene action


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## biga (Apr 17, 2006)

Check with Dandy RV I dealt with Paul Nash in the B'ham location. The price I got was comparable to Lakeshore. I have been very happy with them.


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## cts_alberta (Jun 13, 2005)

We've got a Dodge Ram 1500 Q Cab 4x4 (2005). It's a 5.7L V8 HEMI with an axle ratio of 3.92. Our Outback is the 26RS and upping the axle ratio to 3.92 made a significant difference to what we could tow. After much calculating we figured our max trailer weight (fully & properly loaded) could be 8600 lbs and we decided early on to use the 80% rule to ensure we were well within our limits... so that brought the maximum trailer weight to 6880 lbs. We did more calculating and figured that fully packed we would be pretty close to that 80% weight.

We went with the Reese Equilizer dual cam with 800 lb bars. Wouldn't want to tow anything without the dual cam!!!!!

Our experience so far (one year under our belt) has been great. We do much of our travelling in mountain areas and the only time I felt like we could have used a bigger vehicle was coming in to Butte, Montana last year (VERY LONG) incline which really made our TV struggle.

The long and the short of it is.... the 1500 is ample for a 21RS but check the difference on the Dodge specs between towing capacity on the 3.55 axle ratio and the 3.92 axle ratio.

... Carolyn


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## not_yet (Jun 2, 2006)

Thanks,

Hey, we did check Dandy RV and they have a used one, a 2004. We're camping in Birmingham this weekend, how perfect!

I do plan to go to the stock wheel, put a trans cooler, get a Equalizer WDH and sway. I firgure that puts me back to my owner's manual spec's, 7700 lbs, and with the 5.9, I "should" be pretty good. Not going to win any races, and there are circumstances that could couse me some issues, but OK.

Thanks all, I think I'll go for it, drive the TV till it dies, and get a 2500.

One question, does a 2500 really help on the transition side of things? Some one told me the tranys were the same for the 1500 and 2500....


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## outbackgeorgia (Jan 28, 2004)

80% RULE?
How about 80% guideline (parlay?)
I tow a 21RS all over the US with a 4.7 V8, 3.92 gearing and am well over the "80% Rule".
No issues of any kind towing many thousands of miles, see signature.
TV has 134,000 miles, original trans, etc.
Run the numbers, you should be fine, except the 3.55 will not pull up the big hills very quickly.

Outbackgeorgia


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

You won't win any speed races, but you're just on the fringe, so you'll probably be ok. Knowing you have 100k+ miles on the TV, then perhaps you'll be more tempted to get on some of the predicted HUGE sales events planned for this summer and get a new TV as well.


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## not_yet (Jun 2, 2006)

Our local dealer will not come within $2500 of the lakeshore price, lakeshore just let one go for $15,200. I can't find another willing to do that either. We are going to try Dandys today to look at their used 21RS, and someone local here has one for sale (thanks to this site!), We are very excited about all this, thanks for all the help and advice. What a great group of folks, we cant wait to "really" join, and at that time, I will re-join with a new name.

Thanks everyone.


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## cts_alberta (Jun 13, 2005)

not_yet

Good luck on your search! Let us know when you've found your Outback sunny

... Carolyn


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## Scooter (May 9, 2005)

outbackgeorgia said:


> 80% RULE?
> How about 80% guideline (parlay?)
> I tow a 21RS all over the US with a 4.7 V8, 3.92 gearing and am well over the "80% Rule".
> No issues of any kind towing many thousands of miles, see signature.
> ...


I assume your referring my calculations and my post. If you read the paragraph below carefully you would have read the following: 
'When I ran the numbers for* my* 5.4 f-150 4x4 supercab , 3:55, 17" Rims I was within parameters of *my* 80% max tow rule.'.......

What I posted was my personal worksheet (as was) when I ran the numbers deciding if I could tow a 21rs with an f150 with 3.55 gears. But since you pointed out the descepancy I will go back and update my personal worksheet and original post to this thread so it's clear to all these are my calculations and this is my rule I live by to ensure the safety of my family and yours when I'm towing on the road. Thanks for pointing it out. 
Regards,

side note for not_yet: To help you determine how larger size rims affect your max tow capabilities you can check here. Not knowing the year of your vehicle I posted all links.
2006 Guide Here
2005 Guide Here
1999 -2004 here


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## not_yet (Jun 2, 2006)

rims are still 16. The stock tire is a LT265 75R16 and what I have on it are P225 75R16.

We went to Dandys in B'ham this Monday to look at the 2004 21rs. They were asking $14,900 and we got him to $13,375. With Lakeshore selling a 2007 for $15,550, this was a no deal. Trailer was not is great shape, no outside stove water, smaller front bunks (28 vs. 34 inch), he said the warrenty was good for 30 feet. We mentioned that we might can get an 04 21rs for in the $11,000 range he said â€œthat must be a private ownerâ€. I wondered what else was a getting from him with no warranty. We got out of there.

Back to looking, we may still come of one at the right price yet!


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Keep looking not_yet. Your Outback will come in!









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## Highlander96 (Mar 1, 2005)

I don't want to burst any bubbles, but you are going to be hard pressed to find one for $13K. The dealer paid me $13.5K in trade on my 05 which I paid $15.5K for last year. Unless you are looking at 04's and older........

Lakeshore has the best prices around. You may want to call around and find some other dealers that will come close to the Lakeshore price.

Do remember this. You said the local dealer would come within $2500. When you add in transportation costs in today's $$, the price is not that bad. You will also get the support of the local dealer.

Also, remember that Price is a complete and accurate reflection of value.

i.e. you get what you pay for.

Good Luck and happy Outbacking!

Tim


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## not_yet (Jun 2, 2006)

Highlander96 said:


> I don't want to burst any bubbles, but you are going to be hard pressed to find one for $13K.Â The dealer paid me $13.5K in trade on my 05 which I paid $15.5K for last year.Â Unless you are looking at 04's and older........Â
> 
> Lakeshore has the best prices around.Â You may want to call around and find some other dealers that will come close to the Lakeshore price.Â
> 
> ...


I would like to get from the local dealer, but I can get an 07 for $15,400 (at rv trader from lakeshore), local dealer was an 06 for $17,000. Just to much. transportation is $500. Hum...... Might get an 04 for well under $13,000 local if were real lucky from someone in this forum, we get to look at it this weekend.


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

I'm in sales and I would say that Lakeshore has set the market. The local dealers can talk all they want but the market price has been set.That is the reality of what I face everyday, unless of course that your local dealer can prove to you that his service or something else (value) adds up to the difference in price you pay. I like to bet now and then and I bet that the local dealer can't prove that to and never will unless you get a 1 in 100 dealer.


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## not_yet (Jun 2, 2006)

If the local dealer would come within $1500 I would bite, that being said, maybe you do get what you pay for. Iâ€™ve read many good things about Marci at Lakeshore, but so far I have e-mailed her about an e-bay auction, called and left a message, and replied to the rvtrader sale and have not heard a word back!!! This is over a weeks time. Doesnâ€™t make me feel good about lakeshore. If this is what I get when I want to spend money.

But, like I said, there is a local private sale that might just be the ticket, test tow and all so maybe I'll be an outbacker soon!

Iâ€™ll change my name to â€œalexusâ€ because my wife gave up getting a Lexus for this trailer!

Thanks to all.

BTW, I had 4 sizes too large tires so Iâ€™m going back to stock before the test tow. Wow, maybe Iâ€™ll be able to get into the truck without jumping.


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

Not yet,

Keep on Marci she will help you out, but they get a little busy. I even talked to the owner once. Nice guy.

Here is where I'm at on Lakeshore. You could say they are hurting the market as in why do you buy $13K for used when you get $15K new. In the worst case here is what could happen. You spend $17K for new somewhere else. Then Lakeshore is still out there and hence lowering your used price. So therefore by not going with Lakeshore you could be spending more for new but also get less when selling used. That again is reality and is already effecting your buying decision hence I believe it will effects other folks decisions.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Good points Mike.









This all reminds me of an adage I learned during the couple of years I spent in retail sales (The longest couple of years of my life, but that's another story). It went something like this...

'When you buy, you have three factors to consider. Price, Quality and Service. Pick any two, because no one can give you all three.'

You have to decide which two factors are most impotant to you personally, and then accept the rest.

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## having_fun (Jun 19, 2006)

Changed the name from â€œnot_yet to â€œhaving_funâ€. I hope thatâ€™s not too close to someone elseâ€™s name.

Hi all, I just wanted to let everyone know that we did purchase a 21RS from a private seller here locally, and it was because he is an outbacker.com himself! He sent me a message that he was selling his. Itâ€™s a 2004 model in the color my wife wanted and in great condition, and at a great price, we are very happy.

Status:

The Ram did just fine. I did get a "larger than normal" transmission cooler installed pretty inexpensively and it seem to reduce the engine temp as well by about 30 degrees. Well worth the cost. The guy was pretty sure the trans temp senors was not worth the cost, and that the engine temp morrows the trans temp pretty well. Is this true? Weâ€™ll eventually replace the ram with a newer TV and venture further out.

We got it up the driveway without bottoming out!

We camped over the weekend didnâ€™t find any problems or issues, everything worked great. It rained a lot, no leaks. I did forget to close the bathroom vent and it got a little wet in there. Not used to that yetâ€¦â€¦..

We think this is the perfect camper for me, the wife, and the two boys. Quality is great, tows great, etc. We researched for a long time before deciding on an Outback, now I find outbackers.com and having a group of people to help out when needed makes that decision so much better.


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

action Congrats on your new Outback action

Sounds like you did really well since you changed your name to Having Fun









Happy Camping and post often!
Dawn sunny


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

having_fun,








*Congratulations on the new Outback! (and the new name)!*









It sounds like you got a good one, and are already reaping the rewards! sunny

As far as the engine temperature gauge mirroring the transmission temperature, I will have to respectfully disagree. Engine temperature tends to remain fairly constant as long as the cooling system is working as it should. Transmission temperature however, can vary widely and quickly depending on conditions. I would get the gauge!









Happy Trails,
Doug


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