# What Do Outbackers Do...



## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

What do you all do for self (family)-defense when camping? I thought about this last night as I was watching a show on tv that talked about bear attacks. Now I don't think there are any bears in the areas we will be going for the near future but for sure there will be Rattlesnakes and other Texas High Plains critters. I have to consider the possibility of an unwanted "visitor" as well. For some reason I feel uncomfortable asking about this - I mean we are going to be camping so all should be hunky dory but I do know better. I have to consider the safety of my family in this aspect just as I considered it in changing my original plans and getting a smaller trailer that is appropriate for our TV, a good brake controller, an Equalizer hitch, getting a first aid kit...etc. etc. etc. Do some of you carry pepper spray or the like? I have read where some of you have just said "I carry ammo". I am not familiar with pistols (and am leery of them) although I am quite adept with shotguns (thank you granddad) and am familiar with rifles (thank you grandad and boy scouts). However, that option seems a little...wrong sized for a trailer although I could be wrong. I have a 3 yr old little girl and whatever the case, I put my wife and daughter first and foremost when it comes to securing whatever method of self defense we use.

I hope I haven't opened up a can of worms - if this is a topic that well...arouses feelings like the generator threads do, please forgive me, let me know and I will add it to my list of topics to be wary of. All you folks have been so helpful so far so I am just curious as to what you have found that works for you - especially if you are a family with children to consider. Again, I am considering a wide variety of possible "situations" so I do understand that one solution will not be appropriate for all situations.

-Curtis


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## RizFam (Feb 25, 2006)

I think it is an excellent question & I will be watching & reading the responses.

Tami


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Not to worry, Curtis, This discussion has come up before. You will hear some pretty strong opinions, but the great thing about Outbackers is we have always been able to have civil discussions, and respect each others opinions. Whether we agree with them, or not!

For my part, we tend to avoid areas where one would expect there to be an increased danger level. That is no guarantee, of course, but for us at least (with our small children), we are more comfortable with that approach than some of the alternatives. That said, we will be heading into bear country this summer, so I am looking at what our options are there.

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Camp with the same thoughts you have in mind when you go to Wal-Mart, the local 7-11 or to Church. You would not go to these places if you felt threatened so do not camp where you will feel threatened. This is not to say that you will not ever be a victim but you can not alway be ready to be the quickest draw as that is not the way to live life.

The best offense or defense in this case is to be aware of your surroundings. No need to have over whelming force available at your finger tips at all times.



PDX_Doug said:


> we will be heading into bear country this summer, so I am looking at what our options are there.
> 
> Happy Trails,
> Doug


I think if you just sang a few songs while you were on the trail you would not have to worry about bears much at all..


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

I think that both Doug and CamperAndy said it best. We don't camp where there are known dangers, but anything can happen at any time, just like in real life. Like Andy said, you can't live in fear, you just have to be able to react to whatever situation may arise.

Happy Camping!


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## beachbum (Nov 27, 2006)

I carry a good first aid kit and some tools to fix what I can. Anything unpredictable is, well, just that and will have to be handled when it happens. but like others have said, I do not purposely put myself or family members in danger. Unless it has to do with roller coasters. And DW does not believe this statement when she critiques my driving. LOL
david


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

I think the original question had more to do with animals than people.

People have been living with rattlesnakes and such for many many years without carrying a gun to defend themselves. It's largely a matter of what understand and are comfortable with.

When I was in college studying under a renown herpetologist, I didn't think twice about catching water mocassins and copperheads. We're considering camping in black bear territory this summer, and I've been really worried about it. But a couple weeks ago I watched a show about bears and learned that black bears are not agressive and it won't be a problem.

So, maybe if you ask specifically what you're concerned about someone here can share some facts and experiences.


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## jedmunson (Apr 14, 2006)

A tire iron, baseball bat, cell phone in the camper with us and our kids...

I am not above taking my shotgun (yes, its mine, DH gave it to me a couple Christmas' ago - how trusting is he?) when my children are older and/or grown and gone. There is something about the "CHICK-CHICK" that just tells potential problems to keep walking and should stop a bear in its tracks if it decides to come knocking









Mostly, we do not camp anywhere we feel unsafe and we are usually with family in a camper next to us.

I am also not above hooking up in my jammies and getting the heck out of Dodge.

Will be watching this thread for great insite - Kudos to OBers for civil conversation - yall are really a class act.

Jennifer


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## sleecjr (Mar 24, 2006)

CamperAndy said:


> The best offense or defense in this case is to be aware of your surroundings.


This is great advice. I worry about some people feeling to safe with a weapon and not using common sense or having the know how to use it when the time is right. With that said i carry most of the time. I have thought about bear spray, because most of the parks don't allow on you carrying a gun. I don't know how well it works, if some one has used it i would like to hear about it.

If you would like a pistol you have a good gun mfg in your back yard. Bond Arms I like it because its small and you can get a 410/45 combo. With this said guns are very different if you are looking you need to go with some one and shoot some. You need to get something you are comfortable with. If you have questions just let us know.


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## map guy (Jan 11, 2007)

A very difficult question; are we talking about protection from animals or wildlife or from human wildlife?

As stated events happen regardless of the precautions we take in advance. Our best and most effective tools are two fold. One, keep your eyes and ears open for things happening that are out of context. The first clues of an adverse event are usually subtle out of context things -things that don't seem right. Second most important tool is the ability to think and take action immediately. Sometimes minutes are the difference between a good/bad outcome from an adverse event.

Beyond these brief statements I am waiting to see how the thread plays out....









Map Guy


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

AND, if all else fails.........RUN!


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## Fire44 (Mar 6, 2005)

If you are looking for protection from the bad guys, a bat, pepper spray or a handgun will be good. If you are looking for protection from wildlife (small snakes and the like) then go with the let them you know you are there and they will will steer clear of you, if you want more personal protection, a small caliber handgun would work. Now for bears, a handgun is next to worthless. A .45 would be the bear minimum, a 50 caliber would be much better.

With that said, I don't live in bear country, but if I was to go "walking" in bear country, I would have a "friend" with me.

Gary


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## Northern Wind (Nov 21, 2006)

Well I can't resist throwing in my two cents worth. I have been camping in the Canadian wilds for over forty years and have had experience with everything from Grizzlies to Rattlers and all creatures in between. If I have one word to pass on in the advice department its called "respect" this also works as I discovered as an RCMP officer with the two legged type as well. Give animals and humans space and respect and you will be pleasantly surprised. Then you will also have the gift of watching nature at its best, uninjured and non threatened.
Just my thoughts, for what they are worth!
Have a wonderful season








Steve


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## snowviking (Aug 2, 2006)

skippershe said:


> AND, if all else fails.........RUN!


NOOOOOOOOOO, do not run as the first defense. There are some different theories of how to handle a bear encounter and running is never the first response a person should have. The national parks that are in regions with certain wildlife usually post decent info about how to deal with the specific animals on their websites.

We live in a part of the country where mountain lions, wolves and black/brown bears are a stones throw away and grizzly bears are not much farther off. There is no need to live in fear, it will ruin your outdoor experience. Bear spray does work, just be sure to read the instructions.

The best weapon any person can have is their brain. Educating yourself about the facts, not opinions, on topics like wildlife encounters is a smart thing to do.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

skippershe said:


> AND, if all else fails.........RUN!


Unless it is a bear.
Best to get on the ground, and curl up in a ball, protecting your head and neck. If you chose to run from an aggressive bear, it may be the last run you ever take. Advice easier said then done, I understand. But they are faster, stronger and better climbers. Better to present a passive, uninteresting front, than to arouse curiosity or antagonize.

For that matter, the same goes for mountain lions, cougars, etc.

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## 3athlete (May 14, 2006)

Like many before me have said, we don't camp where there is known danger. I personally am opposed to firearms of any kind, especially with my two small children in such close quarters in the camper.

Wildlife is one thing, scare it off if possible, run if possible too. As far as the human threat, I hope that my fellow campers are thinking along the same lines I am and are not "packing heat heedlessly".

Just my $.02


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

PDX_Doug said:


> AND, if all else fails.........RUN!


Unless it is a bear.
Best to get on the ground, and curl up in a ball, protecting your head and neck. If you chose to run from an aggressive bear, it may be the last run you ever take. Advice easier said then done, I understand. But they are faster, stronger and better climbers. Better to present a passive, uninteresting front, than to arouse curiosity or antagonize.

For that matter, the same goes for mountain lions, cougars, etc.

Happy Trails,
Doug
[/quote]
Good thing we mostly beach camp...
Are there any wild furry creatures known to hang out in RV parks in Utah?? (well, besides dogs and some dh's?)


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## NobleEagle (Jul 8, 2006)

I have to say, a lot of people don't realize that Florida has panthers, gators, bears and all sorts of animals (the 2 legged kind as well). Just as an FYI, not all people that carry are "packing heat" and vigilantes. Most of us have had training (some more extensive than others), we have respect for what these tools can do, we don't look at them as "an easy solution" or "live in fear". I for one can say "I'd rather have and not need, then to need and not have". At least if it was needed I may stand a chance. If I didn't have mine, then I would hope one of my neighbors had theirs. If no one had it, and it was needed, then we would all be in trouble. I don't camp in high crime areas but there have been times we've traveled through seedy areas on the way to our destination. One never knows when the unexpected will happen (huh?). I can only say that I'm sure that my family and myself will be safe if the need arises. Thats what a concealed weapons license is all about. As long as it's concealed, no one should know it's even there except the one thats licensed. There are many safety locks and security options to safeguard these tools so unauthorized people cant try to play with them and this is mandatory if you choose to pursue this option. I personally have trained in Martial Arts and I'm confident that if I didn't have it, I still stand a pretty good chance with the 2 legged kind. With that said, this is what works for ME.

Now, this may not work for you and it isn't for everyone. If you decide to try it, you MUST get an education on it and spend time investigating all options and uses. There are different calibers for different intentions. There are other alternatives too and the spray works from what I've heard. Pepper spray works on people as well and will buy enough time to get to safety. It's a great idea to have the spray as a form of NON-deadly force because deadly force is not always a good option. I understand many people may not agree with me on this and thats fine. We all hope this need would never arise, but if it did I'm confident after it's all said and done, that someone would be happy a level headed person that was legit was exercising his right to bear arms.

I know I'm going to hear it for speaking my mind here, but there are 2 sides to every story. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and as long as the people agreeing with me do it safely and legally, there should not be a problem. This is what freedom is all about







. I hope I hit a few different areas to spark some thought. Good luck and be safe with whatever decision you choose. And most of all HAVE FUN!

*-=EDIT=-*
I am not saying I am an attorney, but it is important that I find clear, accurate information as to be able to bide by the law. I am going to follow up with my findings to make sure that I am legal with MY interpretation.
My findings: Florida Statute: 790.25 (3)h,n 
In section *H* it states: 
3) LAWFUL USES.--The provisions of ss. 790.053 and 790.06 do not apply in the following instances, and, despite such sections, it is lawful for the following persons to own, possess, and lawfully use firearms and other weapons, ammunition, and supplies for lawful purposes:

(h) A person engaged in fishing, camping, or lawful hunting or going to or returning from a fishing, camping, or lawful hunting expedition

 A person possessing arms at his or her home or place of business

Being that our travel trailers are considered part of our domicile, and an extension of our home, this should be covered. This is MY interpretation of the law. I will be contacting Florida State Police as well as Florida Department of Agriculture to clarify if I am correct. When I find out I will update this post for those that are interested.


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## JimBo99 (Apr 25, 2006)

We always carry pepper spray in the camper. It's handy if needed. Also, when hiking I take it with me. At home I have a .45 and a 9mm. If anyone ever breaks into my home they will get the business end of it. I will not take the time to ask for their criminal resume to see if they intend to do me any bodily harm. If they are bold enough to enter uninvited, I MUST assume they will hurt us. I never take my pistols in the camper, but I have talked to alot of people who are carring them. If I'm in need I hope they are camped next door!

Jim


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

if pepper spray or curling in ball failed.....I hope to H*** someone has something else. It's tough call and really it will end up being personal choices best suited for YOU and your family. Do what you feel is necessary and of course pack your common sense. Some have weapons, some don't, some have pepper spray. I think there is no one perfect answer. We all want to protect our families so make the decision you are comfortable with. Having encountered bear in campground in Glacier Montana, my instincts took over and common sense left







, I was running before I knew I was running. Back to trailer....sobbing and shaking, but I have abnormal fear of bears. Now in my mind, he was 13' tall and growling and hungry. That's all I saw. When Rick walked me back thru campground, my 13' bear was more like 13" ( so HE says) and it He says it was oblivous to people as it was trying to get in garbage. Doubt the bear ever looked at me. BUT because of the fear, I will now never go into an area without some spray. I am too chicken to carry weapon but feel something is better than nothing. 
Here is the best part about that. The campground had posted signs by every bear proof garbage bin " DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES LEAVE TRASH OUTSIDE OF RECEPTACLE" . My bear was enjoying the trash left outside the receptacle first and then trying to get in the receptacle. People are smarter than bears??


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## FraTra (Aug 21, 2006)

I have thought about this and talked t over with the DW several times. I have a concealed carry permit but don't take any firearms because of having kids around. The state parks prhibit them anyway. The first level of self defense is not getting yourself in a situation were might need defense. I always feel pretty safe in the state parks and places that we go. I myself have a Black Belt and was a Martial Arts instructor for several years. Being 6 ft and 250 lbs is somewhat of a deterent and when my oldest DS goes he is about the same size.


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## Sluggo54 (Jun 15, 2005)

"We always carry pepper spray in the camper. It's handy if needed. Also, when hiking I take it with me. At home I have a .45 and a 9mm."

Well, see, our "camper" isn't a camper - it's our home. That changes a number of things.

I don't worry about snakes; they will go the other way given the chance. Now, griz and wolves are a different proposition. Often they will, sometimes they will not. Wolves, especially, tend toward nasty tempers. Best thing is to stay away from them, just as the best thing with two legged critters is to stay away from them. But - there is a reason the unexpected is called that.

As for various authorities not allowing this or that - well, I have a permit, but even before they existed, I didn't worry much about it. If you need it, you need it. If you don't, leave it in the small of your back, or in your waistband, or wherever it is out of sight, and that won't be a factor.

You stated that you are comfortable with shotguns. Mossberg makes an excellent defense-type shotgun, the 500 Persuader. It reasonably inexpensive. It has a high-capacity magazine - a mag load of bird shot is adequate to dissuade most any two-legged critter, or four-legged, for that matter, without posing an unnecessary risk to others in the neighborhood.

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.a...ection=products

Bear spray, is, I guess, ok. Just make sure you point it in the right direction. Don't laugh, it has happened, and it ain't all that much fun. Be aware, also, that pepper spray works on most people. That is MOST, not all. I have seen it used on people who were barely aware it was there. True, these people are usually tweakers on a good rip, but I've also seen it on recruits in academy. I guess the bottom line is, don't count on it exclusively.

Noble Eagle makes a number of good points. I guess for me it sums up to something like, when I am carrying, if anything I am extra careful to avoid confrontation. If you have never witnessed the legal hell a person goes through when he has wounded another - well, you don't want to. If you survive the criminal trial, there will doubtless be a civil trial. The burden of proof is much lighter in a civil trial. You could well be exonerated criminally and ruined, financially, for life civilly. So - no waving the piece around, guys. Keep your lip zipped, retreat if you can do so reasonably, and fire ONLY to save life or serious injury.

"if pepper spray or curling in ball failed.....I hope to H*** someone has something else." Come on over, Doxie. You'll like our side of the CG. We're really nice people - honest...

Sluggo


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## j1mfrog (Jun 6, 2004)

Northern Wind said:


> If I have one word to pass on in the advice department its called "respect" this also works as I discovered as an RCMP officer with the two legged type as well. Give animals and humans space and respect and you will be pleasantly surprised.


Well said Nothern Wind.

I would like to add "education". Stay at some State and National Parks and talk to the rangers. Go on guided hikes and learn about the things you are afraid of.

Did you know that Harleys are not recommended in Custer State Park during Bison mating season, they sound like competition. Just last year is when I learned that playing dead is not recommended for much of anything anymore. Looking big and aggressive is in now. Fighting Back is recommended if ultimately attacked. Of course, it depends on the animal, and location, and time of year... You have to learn about these things.

Just learn about the area and its inhabitants and the real dangers and know what to look for.

Jim


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## tgcan (Feb 27, 2007)

We live in grizzly bear country and in a small rural town where there is always the possibility of runnig into a varity of "Wildlife" . Check out your area on the "NET" and be " Bear Aware". Ask the local Fish and Wildlife Dept if there are any warnings out, Be careful and have a great time camping!


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## countrygirl (Apr 9, 2006)

Just this week...I lifted the center console to look for my phone charger...and realized I had been packing a glock for over a week. Good think I always lock my doors even in the driveway!


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

countrygirl said:


> Just this week...I lifted the center console to look for my phone charger...and realized I had been packing a glock for over a week. Good think I always lock my doors even in the driveway!


countrygirl! You carry a glock? You pistol packin' mama you!! 
How could you forget it was in your car??


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## bentpixel (Sep 2, 2006)

Here is a story I got from a ranger at Yellowstone. First of all, in bear country a clean camp helps by not attracting bears. Handy wipes by the door for the little fingerprints. Washing the outside picnic table with a mild bleach and water, (who know what got left behind.







). Still, a lazy bear may want to paw though the trash can. (smells good







). They're pretty bear proof so the visit is a little unnerving. The ranger said that they are trained to "scare" them away by standing tall feet wide, arms out like your making a big X, and roaring madly. (kindda goes without say.. 







)
The reason this work is that if the bear has been caught once before, he has been released in the back country with several ranger performing the above dance while other ranger pelt him with tennis balls. (the don't cause any damage, but because they're delivered from a large air gun the message usually gets though. The rangers have strict policies to follow to protect human life if the bear is a repeating offender.

BTW, pepper spray make work but make sure you have the ones suggested as a bear deterrent. you cannot carry them outside. (they are the size of a fire extinguisher.







) If you try to mark a perimeter it will smell like food to the bear. Capsicum is the active stuff in good hot spicy food.









Personal safety is a constant concern wherever you happen to be. I suggest training .. in anything that matches your needs and abilities. Learn not to be a victim. Know the law. Have a family plan. Tell the ranger where you expect to camp when you pick up a Wilderness Permit for National forest boon-docking. Tell a trusted neighbor or someone in your family your itinerary and party members. Check-in from time to time. Know the area. Have more than one source to guide your path. These last ramblings are tidbits I've pickup from editing news stories over to past too many years. The saddest stories were when no or very poor planning was done.

Respectfully,
Scott


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## Huskytracks (Apr 18, 2005)

As for me I keep a 454 casull pistol in a lockbox at the bottom of the closet on my side of the bed. But we camp in Alaska where not camping where we would fear critters would knock out 90% of the potential campsites. But down south in a campground you shouldn't have to worry about big critters.

If you are the type who wants a gun for security, keep it in a lockbox and out of sight. I was once told that a 357 mag would be big enough for defense against anything in the continental U.S.


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## MJRey (Jan 21, 2005)

I've got one of those giant size cans of bear repellant/pepper spray. I also have the kids always carry a loud "survival" whistle to use in an emergency or if lost. When we go to the mountains (eastern Sierra







) I worry more about mountain lions than bears. The bears are generally not much of a threat, they're usually just looking for an easy meal where someone was careless and left something out. Mountain lions are a much bigger threat especially to kids. California is getting overrun with them since hunting them was banned some years ago. I was talking with a ranger in the area last year and he told me that the deer are being wiped out by all of the lions. When they get done with the deer and start getting desparate for food we'll probably see more encounters with people. Sadly in this state (Peoples Republic of California) you'll be in all kinds of trouble if you shoot a mountain lion even in self defense. You'd better make sure the thing has bitten or clawed you so that you can prove it was self defense. Some of you from other states may think I'm exagerating but we've got some full blown loons running this state.


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## tripphammer (Oct 3, 2006)

I live in a part of the country where wildlife threats are common-place. I've been charged by a grizzly (yes, bear spray does work, and sorry Scott but it is NOT the size of a fire extinguisher)... had a mountain lion stalk one of my daughters (our German Shepard at the time took care of the threat)... bit by a rattlesnake (about 30 years ago and I'm still kick'in)... fought off an angry moose... scared off a brown bear (with a .357 magnum revolver). I have also protected my family from a meth crazed individual (the real scary type of wildlife) brandishing a weapon in a campground (used my .45 duty weapon). Now this may sound like I've experienced more than most... and maybe that's true. However, I haven't necessarily gone looking for danger. *If I let every possible threat govern where I could camp, I wouldn't make it out of the driveway.* No, I don't go around brandishing a firearm everywhere I go; however I do take the necessary precaution given the circumstances. A couple of years ago while floating down the North Fork of the Flathead, I carried both a handgun and bear spray. I saw grizzly bears at three different places on the river... twice within thirty yards. It was one of the most fantastic trips that I have every taken!

One other important point that I would offer... most persons who purchase or own a handgun or bear spray have never practiced or know how to use either one. Consequently they are a liability to themselves and a threat to the other folks whom they are with. If one does not practice with their firearm, generally they are not successful in their use of it. The same goes for O.C. (oleo capsicum) sprays more commonly known as bear sprays. The only difference between the OC that I carried while on duty and the can that I carry now while recreating is that the "bear" version is stronger. There are inert spray cannisters made so that one can practice using the spray. To be certified to carry the OC while on duty we actually went through training where we were sprayed with it so that we knew what might happen if the wind was blowing the wrong way (oooh was that miserable).

To summarize, I will never fault anyone for taking what they might believe are precautionary measures. I only pray that they take the time to learn how to effectively use them.
Take Care,
Tripp


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## usmc03 (Jun 6, 2006)

Interesting topic. Being in Alaska, you have to be aware of the situation you are going into. Problem is you can't let all that dictate what you do. I have been to campgrounds near the house with bear warnings and have never had a problem. You just heed them and carry on.

As for carrying a weapon, I have two or three around or near. If I am carrying you would never know unless you needed to. I have a three year old and he has never seen the weapons and won't until I feel he is ready to learn about them. Until then, they stay locked up and out of his sight.

In all the years I have carried, I have never had to use or pull my firearm other than to practice and I hope it stays that way. Either way you want to look at things it's a personal choice neither right or wrong on how you want to protect yourself. Thats what make this country great. YOU are allowed to have an opinion.

Either way you do it, do it safely.


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## mik0445 (Jun 5, 2006)

Carrying a weapon for defense is a huge liability. Personally, I do, but I have been trained and practiced to do so. I am also aware that with the use of said weapon, not only will I spend some time with cuffs and bars, I will probably suffer a civil consequence, even if the use was justified and required and whether or not it is a justified use, I will have to live with the thought of my actions for the rest of my life. My perspective in this matter is that I would rather spend time suffering the consequenses myself then living with the loss or pain and suffering of a loved one when I could have done something. Maybe thats the line of thinking that brought me to the military where I proudly serve now. I am not advocating that everyone should carry a weapon. If someone is not prepared, would likely brandish when not required, or worse yet go by the 'spray and pray' attitude, I think we would all rather them leave them at home. Well enough of that.

For the protection from the 4 legged types. From living and camping in wildlife country, and 3 years of that in a tent, I have done a lot of research via the internet and talking to fish and game agents. The first you want to do, obviously, is avoidance. Keep a clean campsite. If you leave trash out, you may as well get a bear call. If you see an animal make it aware of your presence. Talk, whistle, clap, whatever, to let it know you are there. If it is far enough away, let it be. Otherwise, let it know you're there so it doesn't get surprised. If they turn and act threatening to you, make yourself look bigger. This is where the standing up with your arms above you comes into play. If you've got a backpack or child with you, hold it above your head. If it thinks you are bigger than it is, it will likely turn away. If you are getting attacked, bear spray is the best defense. It will give you the chance to get away, if nothing else. Lastly, if its a black bear, fight as much as you can. If its a brown or grizz, get in the fetal position and play dead. If its a wolf, fight!


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## bentpixel (Sep 2, 2006)

TrippHammer said:


> ... I've been charged by a grizzly (yes, bear spray does work, and sorry Scott but it is NOT the size of a fire extinguisher)...


 I stand corrected. 
Sorry my bad. DW brought one home and I discovered it was too big to be legal as a carry item. Glad to heard that the Bear strength spray is available in the carry size. Thanks for the correction.

Scott


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## 4beeps (Jan 25, 2007)

Things to take with you when back country hiking:

backpack/first aid kit/solar blankets (lite weight)/rain pancho (incase you need a tent)/jackets/water/snack bars/chocolate/rope/versatile pocket knife/compass/matches/candle - oh and did I metion water. Shouldn't be no more than 15 to 20 lbs

If you are in bear country - pepper spray would be good - but while on the trail sing songs and talk loudly(so you don't stardle them) little bells on your boots or walking stick isn't going detour a bear.

When hiking with kids - you lead! You need to listen not just ahead but all around you. Try to keep the kids between you and the dw.

Never hike alone!

Good luck
4beeps


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## Sigearny (Aug 20, 2005)

I installed a gun safe in the OB in a concealed location and attached it to the frame. With a Utah Concealed Carry permit you can carry in 33 states but you have to remember you must follow the law of that state. Ignorance is no excuse. I can carry in the state parks in this area but in this area we only have Black bears and Mtn lions. Timber wolves in Northern MN but they are pretty much harmless. 
Proper training is key of you decide to carry. I shoot weekly and research whereever I travel. Knowing the law and being right will still get you a stay in the grey bar hotel. Keep your mouth shut and Say Lawyer, Lawyer, Lawyer. Remember the Maranda Rights. "anything you say can and will be used against you"


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

We always have a Bear sized can of pepper spray, and when we camp in an area where mountain lions or bears may pop-up I carry a concealed 9mm handgun.

I do have a locked portable safe for the gun when we're in the trailer (and at home too) so the kiddies don't get to it. They also have no idea that I have a gun and have never seen it. When they get old enough I will take them with me to the firing range and teach them about respect for firearms. (and a little shooting too







)

In our area mountain lions are a threat that can present themselves in a great many places. To avoid them we would almost not be able to camp.


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## OregonCampin (Mar 9, 2007)

We camp a lot in back areas - here in Oregon there is a lot of BLM land that you can use for boondocking - this is how we prefer to camp - this is how we camped when I was a kid too, so I have had a little experience with wild life:

1. Face to face with a rattlesnake - I still have the rattle and he was GOOOOD EATIN' (Thank god for handguns)

2. Came upon an male elk "that time of year" - this was scary - I will take a brown bear over a hot and bothered elk any day of the week. Forunately there was a nice tree near by.

3. Brown bear running through the camp in the middle of the night scared the crap out of us - dog barking scared him away.

So - yes, we carry a handgun, yes we carry a shot gun and we all travel with a very large dog. The dog is useful for noise, but she is old and doesn't move that fast, but she does deter those "human" visitors from wandering by.


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## jedmunson (Apr 14, 2006)

tgcan said:


> We live in grizzly bear country and in a small rural town where there is always the possibility of runnig into a varity of "Wildlife" . Check out your area on the "NET" and be " Bear Aware". Ask the local Fish and Wildlife Dept if there are any warnings out, Be careful and have a great time camping!


This is good advice - know before hand what you may encounter....however, also realize that things like mountain lions have a HUGE roaming radius, especially if they are young and looking for their own area. It is not uncommon for some cats to go over 600 miles from where they were born. We have had them here in the eastern part of OK when "authorities" swear they arent here. Also, in SW OK, my dad owns quite a bit of land he uses for hunting that had a bear and cub, which means there was a "dad" somewhere around too. Ask authorities and they said they havent had bears down there in a long while....RIIIIGHT...


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

this came across my email just now...couldn't resist!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18247153/displ...framenumber/13/


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## jedmunson (Apr 14, 2006)

Doxie-Doglover-Too said:


> this came across my email just now...couldn't resist!
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18247153/displ...framenumber/13/










They are too cute - glad they are in Germany - They were born on my 15th year anniversary....

***** OK, back to your regularly scheduled firearm discussion....


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## justinsnow0 (Feb 5, 2007)

Good stuff here. I am not against carrying but I do have to say, you would need a hand gun and a shotgun. A handgun is useless against most animals that are going to make you dinner. Maybe the noise will scare them but you won't effectively harm them so then you would need a 12 gauge or something.

For snakes, there is a product called snake-away. It is proven with quite a few different types of snakes. It's a granular and you just put it around your camp site with a hand held rotary spreader. I use it in my yard. For when your out and about hiking or something, well just bring a good first aid kit and keep your senses open because nothing is going to prevent it from happening.


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## NobleEagle (Jul 8, 2006)

UPDATE ON MY LAST POST ABOUT FLORIDA:
A lot of people think it's illegal to carry a firearm in State Parks. This may be true in many states so please check your local laws pertaining to the state in which you will be applying this rule to. However, for Florida (which is where I camp 99.9% of the time and there seems to be alot of people replying that do the same.)
This is what I found:

Florida Gun Laws And Florida State Parks

DATE: June 8, 2006
TO: USF & NRA Members and Friends
FROM: Marion P. Hammer 
NRA Past President 
Executive Director Unified Sportsmen of Florida

We are very pleased to tell you that yesterday, Governor Jeb Bush ® signed into law, SIX pro-gun and pro-hunting bills supported by NRA and Unified Sportsmen of Florida. That is a record number of major pro-gun & and pro-hunting bills passed in a single Florida legislative session under any Senate President or Speaker of the House and signed in one ceremony by any Governor in Florida.

Special thanks go to Senate President Tom Lee (R-10) and House Speaker Allan Bense (R-6) for their extraordinary help in passing these six bills to restore rights and freedoms to law-abiding firearms owners in Florida. The individual sponsors and co-sponsors of these bills deserve our gratitude for their efforts on our behalf.

We simply could not have done this without your help. Your work and responsiveness to our alerts and in sending email and making phone calls to legislators in support of these great bills made the difference. Thank you for answering freedom's call. These are the bills YOU HELPED PASS:
*(THERE ARE 4 LISTED BEFORE AND 1 LISTED AFTER THIS ONE)*
(5) HB-1029 Firearms in National Forests & State Parks

A bill to restore the right to possess firearms for self-defense and other lawful purposes while in National Forests and State Parks in Florida. Passed the Florida Legislature 5/2/06.

HB-1029 Sponsored by Representative Dennis Baxley (R-Ocala) in the House and Senator Bill Posey (R-Rockledge) in the Senate does the following:

1. Repeals the law that bans firearms in National Forests in Florida (s. 790.11, 790.12, 790.14)

2. Directs the Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) to repeal its rule that bans firearms in State Parks (rule 62D-2.014(10).

3. Requires that all other applicable firearms laws be followed.

4. Requires that a new rule be formulated by DEP that allows firearms in state parks and stipulates that firearms shall at all times be in the possession of a responsible party or properly secured within or to a vehicle or temporary housing, which shall include motor homes, travel trailers, recreational vehicles, campers, tents, or other enclosed structures, while in state parks.

The law being repealed is obsolete. There are public shooting ranges in Florida's National Forests. FWC officers teach the firearms portion of Hunter Safety courses at these ranges and have been very concerned about violating this obsolete law. Further, there homes in National Forests and the old law violates their firearms rights. The DEP regulation that prohibits firearms in state parks VIOLATES state law (790.33)

The bill passed the House 90-27 and passed the Senate 31-6. Signed into law by Governor Bush on 6/7/06.


I hope this helps those of you that live in Florida.


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## countrygirl (Apr 9, 2006)

skippershe said:


> Just this week...I lifted the center console to look for my phone charger...and realized I had been packing a glock for over a week. Good think I always lock my doors even in the driveway!


countrygirl! You carry a glock? You pistol packin' mama you!! 
How could you forget it was in your car??








[/quote]

Nah...Tom carries the glock.


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## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

Wow thanks for the great responses - all of them. I should have originally said that part of my concern stems from my having witnessed a black bear attack a fellow camper while I was in high school (New Mexico Mountains). We were all fortunate that day as everyone left alive although one of us left via helicopter as he was airlifted out. That experience...well...I suppose you could say it left a lasting impression on me and I will never forget what I saw. I spent 10 or so years in Scouting and did quite a bit of high adventure camping (the kind I am no longer interested in







) and saw plenty of things in addition to the above that lead me to consider this topic. As stated earlier, threats of the two legged variety were also part of my concern.

Most importantly...I would like to say a big thank you to Doug for chiming in so quickly and putting my fears to rest about possibly having started a thread like you tend to see on that "other forum". I appreciate it Doug. Thanks for stepping in early and setting the tone of the conversation. Well done sir. We are, as a family, so very thankful for and happy to be a part of, the wonderful community here at Outbackers.

Thank you all,

Curtis


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## Swany (Mar 2, 2006)

MJRey said:


> I've got one of those giant size cans of bear repellant/pepper spray. I also have the kids always carry a loud "survival" whistle to use in an emergency or if lost. When we go to the mountains (eastern Sierra
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Same deal in WA. About 5 years ago our legislature passed a law that Cougars and Bears could no longer be hunted with dogs. Which means they can no longer be hunted period. Bear and cougar incidents grow every year as their population grows unchecked. Then we do stuff like "reintroduce" wolves and grizzlies to mountainous areas and say things like "the land belongs to them not us". Somewhere along the line this animal worship stuff has made them more important than people! I, for my part carry a 44 mag and would rather throw myself on the mercy of the court than the mercy of a deadly animal.


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## battalionchief3 (Jun 27, 2006)

I start with some of these








Then keep this near by









sorry, just a little humor


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## Scoutr2 (Aug 21, 2006)

I bought a 9mm S&W handgun a few years ago for the specific reason of taking it with me when we travel. I fired it once at a local shooting club's range, cleaned it, and have never had it out of the case since. It stays locked in a bedside table at home and in the wardrobe beside my bed in the Outback.

I have never felt the need to get it out, but I have met some very scary people in my travels that have made me feel good that I have it with me. Crazy people go camping, too, and they just might be camped right next door to me. I've encountered several who bragged about being "loaded for bear." Prior to my purchasing my handgun, a number of my friends over the years commented that they couldn't believe I didn't carry a weapon, what with all the traveling we do (at last count, about 39 states that we've camped in).

But I must say that I was raised with guns - mostly hunting squirrels and rabbits with a shotgun, and my Dad was a stickler for gun safety. The Boy Scouts taught me about rifles - and also gun safety. A Scouter friend of mine who is a retired IRS investigator (and one of our local Boy Scout camp's shooting rangemaster) helped me pick out my gun.

When I asked our village's Police Chief what he thought about my owning a handgun, his reply was, "I think everybody should have one. All the bad guys do!"

This is a touchy subject, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. There are many reasons why one would or would not carry a firearm, and none of them are wrong. It is a personal preference thing.

That's just my humble opinion. Others may disagree. I respect their right to do so.

Mike


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## Rollrs45 (May 7, 2007)

It's a valid question, indeed. Society has changed and so has the potential for violence. When one considers that statistically, 7 out of 10 America's most wanted fugitives have been apprehended in state parks (according to AAA), it would seem only natural that an individual would be concerned about safety. I approach it like this...... Just because I'm camping doesn't mean my level of awarness to danger decreases. I wouldn't drop my guard in my hometown and I'm sure not going to drop it in unfamiliar territory. I'm a cop, so you can imagine the type of self-defense weapons I choose. In this day and era, I rarely leave home without it.

Mike


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## Highlander96 (Mar 1, 2005)

battalionchief3 said:


> I start with some of these
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like the way you think, Chief..........

However, we like flares on the outer perimiter, then the claymores.

Seriously, out of sight is out of mind (when it comes to kids). However, as Mr. T once said...........

"I pity the fool", who breaches the perimeter of the Highlander compound unwanted and outside of normal visiting hours...............









I remember, several years ago, we were visited unexpectedly by the Baltimore County Police Department. They were beating on my front door with a Mag Light at 3:30 am. Remember, our home had been broken into a month earlier. As I crack the door to see who it was, I just heard his voice "crack" and say, "Um, You may want to put that away". When I look back on that situation, I chuckle. However, it wasn't very funny at the time. Come to find out they were at the wrong house. The funny part of the story is that our home was for sale at the time and he was looking fo ra house. So we gave him a tour in the middle of the night..........

Tim


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## Mgonzo2u (Aug 3, 2004)

I didn't read all of the original post but got the jist.

I keep the DD (3.5 yo) near at all times when we are in dangerous critter country and I carry a large hunting knife on my side at all times when we are in those surroundings.

Believe it or not, mountain lions lurk in the public wilderness parks in rural Orange County. This is the animal we campers fear most in this part of So Cal.

We are headed out to Caspers Regional Park (South Orange County, CA) again this weekend and the last known sighting in the park of a large mountain lion was 12/22/06. They are around and I am prepared to protect my family from animal (and human if need be) nemesis.


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## bradnbecca (Feb 12, 2007)

Well, I am required by my employer to carry a weapon at all times unless I am intoxicated or in church, so that pretty well answers what we do in regard to self-defense.

I think that anyone who is legally able and comfortable with a weapon should be able to carry a weapon for protection, IF THEY ARE WILLING TO ACCEPT THE RESPONSIBILITY THAT GOES ALONG WITH IT. I know that carjackings in Houston decreased dramatically after the concealed carry law went into effect here.

A weapon in the hands of a responsible adult is nothing to be feared by those who obey the law and respect the property of others.

Camping with a handgun and kids does present an additional challenge as far as insuring that the weapon is safely stored and secured.


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## Scoutr2 (Aug 21, 2006)

Forgot to add in my earlier post, but need to state that while we were at Disney World last week, a 10 year old girl was kidnapped from her parents, at gunpoint, just outside the entrance to one of the theme parks - within the confines of the resort.

My handgun would have done me no good in a case like that, because I have no carry permit. The handgun stays stored in the Outback. But this goes to illustrate the point that "the good old days" when parents could let their children out of their sight to play are pretty much a thing of the past. I never did hear how the kidnapping story turned out (we didn't watch much TV there - only saw this on the news while waiting for the local weather report).

Mike


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## battalionchief3 (Jun 27, 2006)

I wonder if the disney thing does not have more too it then what is being said.... I have found their are lots of sides to a story. It is a scarey thought though and someone would be pulling my dead body off the ground if someone tried to take my son, I aint going out like a sucka'. Maybe I would slip one of these somewhere and pull it out, just act crazier then the fool your dealing with.... He would probally run.








And I always bring Grandma along...she is a real pistol even at 106 years old.


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

mons02035 said:


> Good stuff here. I am not against carrying but I do have to say, you would need a hand gun and a shotgun. A handgun is useless against most animals that are going to make you dinner. Maybe the noise will scare them but you won't effectively harm them so then you would need a 12 gauge or something.


Nah, you just need a big enough handgun. People do hunt bears with them, ya know. Sounds like crazy people to me, but some do it nonetheless. Personally, I wouldn't bother with a 9mm even for self-defense.


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## Drac (Apr 26, 2007)

BoaterDan said:


> Good stuff here. I am not against carrying but I do have to say, you would need a hand gun and a shotgun. A handgun is useless against most animals that are going to make you dinner. Maybe the noise will scare them but you won't effectively harm them so then you would need a 12 gauge or something.


Nah, you just need a big enough handgun. People do hunt bears with them, ya know. Sounds like crazy people to me, but some do it nonetheless. Personally, I wouldn't bother with a 9mm even for self-defense.
[/quote]

This thread got me thinking about shotguns again. I found this which was enticing me to goto my local gun shop Mossberg J.I.C.. Thought the packaging and such was pretty original if nothing else and assuming you could properly store it, it would be a good all around solution. Also, some people are neither very experienced with handguns, nor have the desire to become so. There is a lot less skill involved with using one of these effectively. Bird shot would also be pretty handy agains some nasty varmints.


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

That thing has to be just barely legal with such a short barrel!

I agree with you though about it probably being a very effective self-defense weapon.


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## Thor (Apr 7, 2004)

Camp in Canada - No guns allowed









Our police are awesome


















But for the best protection...I carry a larger (older) version of this in my trailer. During the day Leo sleeps outside. Trust me, no one while ever dream of doing anything wrong near your trailer - Just tell people you have installed a temp invisible fence and wink


















Thor


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

Been in the woods all my life. Every single animal knows only one thing-- survival. Besides that remember another word, un-predictable.If so motivated they will fight for their life and that goes right down even to a little chipmunk.

Besides what Park Rangers will tell you on defense don't listen to too much of it. They have all been re-programmed by the Politically Correct police known as the animal rights activists. Shooting tennis balls at bears, yeah right! Case in point, Black Bears can be extremely aggresive. Just go and cross through a young male black bear who is trying to map out his territory. He has one thing to prove, your in his space so get out, and I can fill this page with Black Bear stories but ain't nobody paying me to put them in print.

I would say Bear Spray and a big machete for those who don't like guns. Besides that though I would say carry guns if you have training with them. Spend enough time in the wild and you too will have a magical encounter. I was even attacked by a Chicken Hawk (Coopers Hawk) that didn't like me in that tree stand.

Seriously folks don't take too much of that Discovery Channel and Animal Planet stuff to heart. They are dealing in politics, not common sense. They have an agenda and your personal safety or your little kids safety doesn't fit in that equation. Grizzly bears, mountains lions--- who says you are not an easy meal? 3 year old kid isn't an easy meal for a large coyote? You willing to bet on it?


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## Castle Rock Outbackers (Jan 18, 2004)

Mountain Lions and Bears should be treated differently.

BEAR: Stop, back away slowly, talk softly only if needed, do not show fear, do not make eye contact, and walk away. Give the bear an easy escape route. Mama Bear wants to be assured it's cubs are not being threatened.

MOUNTAIN LION: If it doesn't see you first (which is highly unlikely), turn around, walk quietly, and leave the area. The more likely scenario is it sees you and approaches your hiking party. When this happens, do not run, put the family behind Dad, and Dad should get big...really big. Take off your backpack and put it above you head. Yell loudly, "you want some if this?!?!" If you are mountain biking, raise your bike above your head. Be big, make noise, throw rocks at the kitty. You won't be worth the trouble.

Randy


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