# Leveling Your Outback



## JEFF_69Z28 (Oct 27, 2006)

I just talked to a company called Ruppert they make the chassi for the outback 21rs and other outbacks and they said you can install scissor jacks(leveling jacks)to the chassi because it is made of steel.
Rupperts number is 1-866-524-7821.


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

Could you give more details about the conversation? Simply being made of steel does not in itself qualify it as being able to handle leveling jacks. Does anybody make their frames from something else? The chassis manufacture would need to have the context of what it was supporting to answer that question, right?

Taking my trailer as an example, I think the issue is lifting an entire side (~4000 pounds) with just two contact points 25 feet apart. Even being steel, can the main frame rail handle that kind of stress on a regular basis?

The bad thing is I don't think it necessarily would "break" anything per se - but all of a sudden one day your bathroom door won't close or something because of the warp.









I don't mean to squash your enthusiam, and I really appreciate you posting this. But if you could fill in the post explaining if you talked to them about these points it would make it more significant, IMO.


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## JEFF_69Z28 (Oct 27, 2006)

More or less I told the guy I had a Keystone outback camper and asked him if I could use scissor jacks on it and he said yes.But now that i think about it I do not remember seeing any Outbacks with them installed.Ihave a friend that has a Newmar lite camper and it only has the stab jacks.All the campers i have looked at that scissor jacks really had beefy chassis.I agree with you i would hate to install them and one day my bathroom or front door doesnt shut properly so I guess I shall use someother method of leveling the 21RS.I will also call back and try to get more details.


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

I would be VERY wary of doing this. Heck, I can already tweak my frame enough with the basic stabilizer jacks that the screen door will rub on the bottom.

I believe your source is gravely mistaken.


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## bill_pfaff (Mar 11, 2005)

I think your source is related to the salesperson that says a Dodge Dakota will pull a 28 footer because it has a V8.

I'd go with plan "B"


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Most all frames are made of steel.








I'll let the axles do the leveling.


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## bubstam (Mar 9, 2004)

I installed scissor jacks on my 27RSDS and I love them!







More stable when walking in the trailer and easier to level off. Be careful tho







because they will do a lot more lifting than the factory jacks.


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## webeopelas (Mar 11, 2006)

Absolutely you can install scissor jacks. As stated they can be more stable than the stab jacks. However, that still doesn't mean you want to use them to lift the trailer. The frame WILL warp.

I concur that this guy would probably sell you a 35ft trailer to pull with your explorer.


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## Scoutr2 (Aug 21, 2006)

I would think twice about using leveling jacks to level the Outback. The frame manufacturer most certainly would say that the jacks will not hurt the frame. And they are correct! But did they tell you how much those steel beams would deflect, or flex when putting 3000# of load on top of them?

Trust this site when the majority just say NO.

The fame will flex when lifting one corner higher than the others when leveling (and this is what you are doing). These are lightweight trailers with welded aluminum frames that will twist and flex with the frame. The vertical fiberglass side panels are another matter, however. They will not flex much and eventually, door and window seals will begin to leak - sometimes for quite some time before you notice the delaminaion bubbles beneath them. And then there are the sealed corners and the roof-meets-walls seals . . . you get the picture.

I carry deck boards and 2 X 6 boards with beveled edges beneath the wheels to level side-to-side. (A board beneath just one wheel will really fine tune it!) Then I use the Atwood tongue jack to lunhitch the Equalizer and to level the trailer front-to-rear. I use a home-made crank tool in my cordless drill to run down the stabilizers and then I put the BAL Choc-N-Locks between the wheels. 10 minutes, tops. (With the help of my DW, who swaps the boards around while I back up and pull forward.) And everything is solid, with no rocking.

IMHO, I'd use the money from the four scissors jacks to buy an elect. tongue jack and a couple of the BAL Tire Locking Chocks.

Now, that's just my $.03. ($.02 ain't what it used to be.)

Mike


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## Thor (Apr 7, 2004)

My 28 came with the reg jacks and the 31 RQS has scissor style.

No problem with either; however; please remember both styles are stabilizer not leveling jacks. You can twist your frame with both styles if you are not careful.

Thor


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## JEFF_69Z28 (Oct 27, 2006)

WHAT ABOUT LEVELING ONE SIDE LIKE I ALREADY DID WITH CINDER BLOCKS?I JACKED UP BACK CORNER AND PUT CINDER BLOCKS UNDER IT TO LEVEL IT UP.


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

Same warnings would apply to the cinder blocks. Bottom line is you probably shouldn't be trying to lift the trailer significantly from a corner of the frame.

Thor, that's right. I have never considered my scissor jacks to be leveling jacks.


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## Moosegut (Sep 24, 2005)

Thor beat me to the punch. I installed scissor STABILIZERS on mine simply because I find them to be beefier and sturdier in the stabilization. I don't take them up any higher than I did the old jacks. I level the tt with blocks under the wheels as needed and stablize the tt with the scissors. 
I do plan to install a pair of the old jacks that were removed in the middle of the tt just forward of the wheels - if I can.


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## pjb2cool (Apr 8, 2004)

Scoutr2 said:


> I carry deck boards and 2 X 6 boards with beveled edges beneath the wheels to level side-to-side. (A board beneath just one wheel will really fine tune it!) Then I use the Atwood tongue jack to lunhitch the Equalizer and to level the trailer front-to-rear. I use a home-made crank tool in my cordless drill to run down the stabilizers and then I put the BAL Choc-N-Locks between the wheels. 10 minutes, tops. And everything is solid, with no rocking.
> 
> IMHO, I'd use the money from the four scissors jacks to buy an elect. tongue jack and a couple of the BAL Tire Locking Chocks.
> 
> ...


Ditto...except I use the CW square levelling blocks, instead of deckboards - only because they weigh less and wont warp) !


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## W4DRR (May 17, 2005)

Friends don't let friends level with the jacks.


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## Brew (Apr 27, 2007)

I think it would be just fine to install scissor jacks on any TT. You are just using them to stabilize the TT and not lifting it off the ground. If you think about it, when you do not have your jacks down and your TT is being towed or just sitting there your frame is holding all the weight on its own. So if you think your frame will bend or twist by using the jacks then why would it not bend or twist down when you are not supporting it with the jacks especially while towing. You think of all the rough roads you tow over, why does your rear of the TT not sag if the frame was not strong enough? I know on my SOB TT, I have a I Beam frame and it is boxed in for about 8 feet where the axels bolt on and then again up front for the hitch part and I would have no problem putting scissor jacks on it and fully trusting the frame. For one thing yes you do not use them to fully level your TT. First you level the TT with blocks and then you can use them to tweak the TT to get the TT perfectly level. I think if someone would like to put scissor jacks on a TT then go for it, just remember there is a proper way of using them and then there's the wrong way. That's just my .02's

Bruce


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## JEFF_69Z28 (Oct 27, 2006)

I ONLY LIFTED IT ABOUT 2-3 INCHES AND SO FAR I HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH IT,BUT I THINK THE NEXT TIME I GO TO WHERE I HAVE IT FOR THE SUMMER I WILL PUT BOARDS UNDER THE TIRES OF THE SIDE IN QUESTION.


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## azthroop (Jun 16, 2007)

I have a 31RQS with scissor lifts. Since I am still a newbie, don't all of the OB's have the same kind? If not, what are the other kind?









Jim and Sandy


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

Brew said:


> So if you think your frame will bend or twist by using the jacks then why would it not bend or twist down when you are not supporting it with the jacks especially while towing.


It's all about where the lift points are along the length of the frame. Think about it and you should quickly realize the difference between towing configuration and the jack positions.

The big land yachts have automatic leveling systems almost as a rule. and they're significantly longer than our TTs. Has anyone looked at their frame to see how much beefier it is?

I mean to say I don't know that it isn't fine to lift our trailers from the jack points, but I ain't taking the chance personally.


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## JWGO (Aug 13, 2007)

I installed Leveling Jacks on my 21rs..... Not a good move.... The door wont close now..... Need i say more....

The problem was been fixed now. We now level side to side with boards under wheels.


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## Sayonara (Jul 23, 2007)

JWGO said:


> I installed Leveling Jacks on my 21rs..... Not a good move.... The door wont close now..... Need i say more....
> 
> The problem was been fixed now. We now level side to side with boards under wheels.


That about sums it up !


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

i just had scissor jacks installed on our 28RSS and they are awesome. Of course I'm not going to level with them, but MAN do they make a difference in the stability of the Outback.


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

Brew said:


> I think it would be just fine to install scissor jacks on any TT. You are just using them to stabilize the TT and not lifting it off the ground. If you think about it, when you do not have your jacks down and your TT is being towed or just sitting there your frame is holding all the weight on its own. So if you think your frame will bend or twist by using the jacks then why would it not bend or twist down when you are not supporting it with the jacks especially while towing. You think of all the rough roads you tow over, why does your rear of the TT not sag if the frame was not strong enough? I know on my SOB TT, I have a I Beam frame and it is boxed in for about 8 feet where the axels bolt on and then again up front for the hitch part and I would have no problem putting scissor jacks on it and fully trusting the frame. For one thing yes you do not use them to fully level your TT. First you level the TT with blocks and then you can use them to tweak the TT to get the TT perfectly level. I think if someone would like to put scissor jacks on a TT then go for it, just remember there is a proper way of using them and then there's the wrong way. That's just my .02's
> 
> Bruce


Now, I'm not an engineer, but I know there are a few here, so hopefully they will confirm or deny what I am about to make an educated guess at....

The frame is most likely engineered to carry the load of the coach to ground at the wheels, and the tongue. When you use a jack to level the trailer, your are now carrying that same load to ground at a different point, and there subjecting the frame to forces it was not designed to carry, which could allow it to flex and or bend.

I am a firefighter by profession, and our aerial ladders are engineered to carry a load in a specific way. If I lower the tip of the aerial against the roof of a building, I am risking damage, and even catastrophic failure of the ladder because I am changing the way the loads are carried to ground. This fact has been proven through practice many times since the advent of the aerial ladder, I am not in doubt of this, as I have seen the accident investigations, and the photo's.

I will continue to level my travel trailer side to side using the 2x6 and 5/4x6 boards I carry specifically for the purpose.



> The big land yachts have automatic leveling systems almost as a rule. and they're significantly longer than our TTs. Has anyone looked at their frame to see how much beefier it is?


Remember, these vehicles are on truck chassis, and have GVWR's exceeding 40,000 lbs in some cases. In addition, those auto leveling systems are engineered to the chassis, once again like the jacks on my aerial trucks....yes, I can lift the whole 72,000# truck into the air using the jacks....but there is an over engineered torque box in the frame that is engineered to carry that weight.

Ok, I'm off my soap box now.

Tim


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

hatcityhosehauler said:


> I think it would be just fine to install scissor jacks on any TT. You are just using them to stabilize the TT and not lifting it off the ground. If you think about it, when you do not have your jacks down and your TT is being towed or just sitting there your frame is holding all the weight on its own. So if you think your frame will bend or twist by using the jacks then why would it not bend or twist down when you are not supporting it with the jacks especially while towing. You think of all the rough roads you tow over, why does your rear of the TT not sag if the frame was not strong enough? I know on my SOB TT, I have a I Beam frame and it is boxed in for about 8 feet where the axels bolt on and then again up front for the hitch part and I would have no problem putting scissor jacks on it and fully trusting the frame. For one thing yes you do not use them to fully level your TT. First you level the TT with blocks and then you can use them to tweak the TT to get the TT perfectly level. I think if someone would like to put scissor jacks on a TT then go for it, just remember there is a proper way of using them and then there's the wrong way. That's just my .02's
> 
> Bruce


Now, I'm not an engineer, but I know there are a few here, so hopefully they will confirm or deny what I am about to make an educated guess at....

The frame is most likely engineered to carry the load of the coach to ground at the wheels, and the tongue. When you use a jack to level the trailer, your are now carrying that same load to ground at a different point, and there subjecting the frame to forces it was not designed to carry, which could allow it to flex and or bend.

...

I will continue to level my travel trailer side to side using the 2x6 and 5/4x6 boards I carry specifically for the purpose.



> The big land yachts have automatic leveling systems almost as a rule. and they're significantly longer than our TTs. Has anyone looked at their frame to see how much beefier it is?


Remember, these vehicles are on truck chassis, and have GVWR's exceeding 40,000 lbs in some cases. In addition, those auto leveling systems are engineered to the chassis, once again like the jacks on my aerial trucks....yes, I can lift the whole 72,000# truck into the air using the jacks....but there is an over engineered torque box in the frame that is engineered to carry that weight.

Ok, I'm off my soap box now.

Tim
[/quote]

Tim, we can probably arrange an honarary engineering degree!








Also, for anyone looking at one of thos land yachts that are leveled, check and see where those big hydraulic jacks are located.... Pretty close to the axles... Hmmmm








I suspect you could sucessfully raise an OB by installing scissor jacks right next to where the springs attach, but you would have to check for any local reinforcing, and it sounds like an awful lot of work!!!


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## Sayonara (Jul 23, 2007)

Nathan said:


> Tim, we can probably arrange an honarary engineering degree!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very Good - Honorary Degree it is!!

Once again, I agree with Nathan. 
My In-laws have a land yacht and the jacks are near to the axles precisely where the vehicle was designed to support the weight. Just as the axles on a TT are located and designed to support the weight in specific locations. Also, as im sure you have noticed, the axles are much furthur apart on the land yachts, by nature of them being "vehicles" and not trailers. the scissor jacks on a TT are at the corners and are designed to only withstand stabilization of the TT. any greater force on them to "level" the TT will cause twist on the frame as designed from the factory. The frames are not designed to have the total weight supported from the corners, only from the axles. They could be altered to support more weight and reduce the twist but thats a whole other topic. The axles support the TT in a specific place at same time and rate. The location of the TT axles is based on the length of the TT and the tongue jack location. The frame is designed around this, not the scissor jacks (stabilizers).


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## ussroonie (Aug 6, 2007)

W4DRR said:


> Friends don't let friends level with the jacks.


Hahaha. That's Great!


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## hoby88 (Feb 18, 2006)

I have seen that some of the new 2008 models are coming out with stabilizer jacks.


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## davel1957 (Mar 25, 2008)

Jeff,
I have a 25RSS that I just bought and the couple that owned it before me installed sissor jacks on it and they work well and don't cause any problems. I have never used them for more that simple stabilization though.

Dave


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## ColoradoChip (Jan 21, 2008)

Does anyone have any recommendations on a specific brand of scissor stabilizer jacks?


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## Reverie (Aug 9, 2004)

To all my Outbacker friends....

(and not to be a contrarian...)

(but I do pull a 28 BHS with an '01 Tundra!...)

I use scissor jacks to partially lift and stabilize my trailer. I carefully lift the trailer fore and aft of the axles and use the four stabilizers to steady the trailer along with the tongue jack. That being said, I recognize the potential for damage if I were to lift the trailer asymettrically or to rely upon them to suspend the trailer in mid-air. What I do use them for is to relieve the axles of suspending the frame. Through experience I have found that lifting the frame enough to relieve the axles of holding up the frame, BUT without actually lifting the tires off the ground, works the best. Some people install the scissor jacks in place of the stabilizing jacks and I don't think that would work. It would result in the trailer bowing in the middle and it would shake every time you step. I also imagine you would eventually crack and window or two, and definately jam the doors. Eventually you would warp the walls.










In short, can it be done? Yes. Should it be done? If you are want to really stabilize the inherent bounce when parked. Can it have bad consequences? Yes, if you do it thoughtlessly. Is this post going to elicit a bunch of naysayers? Yep. Is this post going to elicit a bunch of people that agree? Beats me. I don't camp to suit other people, I camp to suit my family. The trailer isn't going to fall down and crush someone's dog so it is really up to me.

I can assure you I'm too dang cheap to deliberately screw up my trailer. It isn't a problem for Keystone/Outback because the only thing I can think of that it could potentially effect that Keystone is still warranting is the roof and I would have to induce some wicked-bad torque into the frame to effect the roof membrane.

Thoughts?

Bricks?

Hate Mail?

Crickets?

Reverie


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

Opinions on what we all believe to be correct is what we all have and give. After that the bottom line is its still your trailer to make a decision as to what you choose to do.


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