# First Tow With 21Rs + Grand Cherokee - Questions



## MattFromPA

I took our new (to me) 2005 21RS on its first trip this weekend. My TV is a 2004 Grand Cherokee with the 4.7L V-8. We upgraded from a pop-up so I wasn't new to trailering. But I am new to the WD hitch and towing a high-profile trailer. Couple of things concerned me this weekend.

- Turbulence from passing vehicles. Anything larger than a sedan would cause the trailer to wiggle a little (I could feel it in the wheel), which is a sensation I was totally unprepared for. Eventually I figured out what was going on, and on the way home I could predict when it would occur. I have a sway control bar and its cranked down pretty far which helps, but the shimmy still happens. Is this normal?

- The WD hitch was originally set up for a Chevy Tahoe. The shank is really not right for a Grand Cherokee - the hitch assembly should be another notch higher on the shank. But there are no higher mounting holes to use, as I moved it to the top hole when I bought the 21RS. The bottom of the shank is too close to the ground, since the Tahoe sits higher than a Jeep. So I see I need a new shank. Hopefully this will help the trailer ride a little higher and help with stability. Any other thoughts on the WD hitch?

I appreciate any comments or ideas on my 21RS towing situation. This is a great group, glad we bought a Keystone!


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## rsm7

The turbulence is normal but...a larger tow vehicle would minimize it greatly. You will continuw to struggle with your Gr Cherokee and 21RS. You need a longer and wider tow vehicle. You will have good days where it seems to work okay and you will have white knuckle scary days. As far as the shank goes you may be able to flip it over to get more height. Most of them are reversable.


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## egregg57

rsm7 said:


> The turbulence is normal but...a larger tow vehicle would minimize it greatly. You will continuw to struggle with your Gr Cherokee and 21RS. You need a longer and wider tow vehicle. You will have good days where it seems to work okay and you will have white knuckle scary days. As far as the shank goes you may be able to flip it over to get more height. Most of them are reversable.


True, True. Tires, wheel base etc are big factors as well as a WDH with integral sway control. Friction Sway Control bars aren't very good at all. Even with a shorter unit.

Eric


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## Mgonzo2u

Simple answer from another Chrysler SUV type user with a 21RS of his own.

Sorry but your tow vehicle is not strong enough and it does not have the minimum wheelbase required to support such a TT set-up.

From what I gathered on a quick spec review of your T.V., you are under 106". For the 21RS, at minimum, you need at least a 119" wheelbase TV.

You need a different T.V. to avoid the concerns you have just discovered. WDH and other equipment will not solve your problem for the long term.

Add to that your max towing cap. estimated at about 6,500# and you are pushing up against all the limits (when the TV and TT are loaded up (not even including water in tanks)). Your tranny will hate you in short order......sooner if mountain driving is in your near future.

Source:

http://www.new-cars.com/2004/jeep/jeep-grand-cherokee-specs.html

p.s.

For the record, with the proper minimum wheel base and towing capacity, a WDH and and single friction control bar work more than adequately. Using my 7+ years of experience in driving a lot of So Cal roads up through mountain ranges and back down again to sea level (with Southern Cal traffic in all areas) as my proof.

Best of luck in your decision to amend your concerns.


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## RDS

A larger TV will make a huge difference. I have the same TT as you but my truck weighs twice as much as yours. (7500Lbs) I don't even have a WD hitch or sway control and my TT never moves around.

If you had a little bigger TV with your hitch, things will be much better.

I'm sure this is not what you wanted to hear, but better safe than sorry.


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## CamperAndy

You can turn the shank over to change the position of the holes so you can correctly adjust the WDH.


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## MattFromPA

Thanks for the replies and the advice. I thought I did my homework before buying the 21RS...according to the owner's manual my Grand Cherokee can tow up to a 6500 lb trailer, with maximum length of 30' and maximum tongue weight of 750 lbs (it has the factory tow group). I do think those figures are unrealistic (30 ft??), but regardless I felt the 21RS was reasonably within the parameters. I don't believe I'm maxing out the Jeep with the 21RS, but we are planning on getting a larger size SUV when we make our next vehicle purchase.

Having towed the trailer several times now I'm actually pleased with the Jeep's power. We had a pop-up for 10 years and I expected the Jeep to work much harder than it does. I'll have to learn to live with the turbulence for now. I don't plan to carry water, to keep the trailer as front-loaded as I can. Also the hitch shank will need to be replaced, since if I flip it over it is actually too high.


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## Mgonzo2u

This is as close to the original chart I worked off of back when working on my due diligence on TV and new TT:

*Get weighed *

Weighing your car, truck, motorhome or trailer is fairly simple. All you need to do is find a scale to put it on. You can find them at most truck stops (Flying J), large recycling centers, waste transfer stations, and along most major highways. Some are free, othere may have a small fee. Check them out first before you take your rig there so you'll now what to do.

How to weigh is fairly simple, but it will depend on how long you are and how many individual scales there are.

Most truck stops have 3 separate platforms, so this makes it easy. Positon your rig so that each axle (or pair of axles) is on a separate platform and get a weight reading.

If there are only 1 or 2 platforms available, use them the best way you can to get individual axle weight readings. If it is just one long platform, pull onto (or off) the platform one axle at a time and get a reading. You'll need to do a little math to figure out how much weight is really on each axle. If there is someone working the scales, they may be able to help you with this.

Once you have your weight readings, compare them to the vehcile or trailer's GVWR and GAWR's for each axle. Also compare the total weight of vehcile and trailer to the GCWR.

DO NOT EXCEED THESE RATINGS!!! They are there for a reason...your safety and everyone else on the road.

Also check the load capacity of your tires. Each axle weight reading should be less than the combined weight rating of each tire. It's not uncommon for the GAWR to be more than the combined weight rating of each tire, and that's fine, but we really don't care about that. It's the GAWR we want to pay attention to.

If you are over any of the ratings, you'll need to reduce the load somehow. If it's a GAWR you're over, it could be as simple as moving things around. But if it's the GVWR or GCWR you're over, you need to take something out to reduce the load.

If you're looking at buying a new or used RV, it would be best if you could take it to a scale and get it weighed first because sometimes the "dry" weights listed in the sales brochures or on labels inside the RV are not as accurate as you would hope.

*How long?*

Due to the different characteristics of a fifth wheel trailer, *this applies more to a trailer than a fifth wheel*.

*Why is length such an important factor? Well, it's not really the length of the trailer that is as important as is the size (or wheelbase) of the tow vehicle trying to pull it. The main focus of this is to minimize trailer sway, which in many cases is caused by the wind from either Mother Nature or large vehicles passing you by.*

Basically, the longer the wheelbase the better! Think of it as leverage. The longer the trailer, the more leverage it can have on the tow vehicle. The longer the wheelbase of the tow vehicle, the more it can resist the leverage being applied from the trailer. You don't need a crew cab long bed truck to pull a pop-up that could easily be towed by a small SUV. But *you don't want to pull a 30' trailer behind that small SUV*. You want something longer. But don't get carried away, either. Let's see how it works.

You'll need 2 measurements, the wheelbase of your tow vehicle, and the total length of the trailer you are pulling (or intend to pull). That length is from the coupler to the back bumper.

*The First Guideline*
(This guideline was first used by the RV Consumers Group rv.org)

*For the first 110" of wheelbase, this allows you 20' of trailer.

For each additional 4" of wheelbase, this gets you 1' more of trailer.

Wheelbase / Trailer length
110" = 20'
114" = 21'
118" = 22'
and so on*

*************************************

OP,

This data fits right into why my 119" WB SUV with a towing capacity of 8.9K# works perfectly for us.

The < 106" WB on that JGC is not enough, thus the sway in natural wind or from big rigs will continue. Even though you say you don't believe you are maxing out your JGC, I would bet you are right up against all weight limits (when loaded with camping gear and troops sans water). I don't know if you have weighed your 21RS by itself loaded up but you better believe that it is over 6200#+. That is too close to your tow cap. and that alone will strain your JPG more than you want.


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## MattFromPA

Mgonzo2u - thanks for these details. I wish I had found this information before buying, but as I said I was under the impression I was going to be OK. Chrysler could do a better job with their towing guidance in the manual, but the onus is on me to conduct proper due diligence.

Dry weight for the 21RS is supposed to be in the 4400 range? I can't believe it would weigh 6200 when loaded up for a weekend. I'll get it weighed. Do you experience much turbulence or sway with the Durango? Our next SUV will likely be a Durango or something of that size.



Mgonzo2u said:


> This is as close to the original chart I worked off of back when working on my due diligence on TV and new TT:
> 
> *Get weighed *
> 
> Weighing your car, truck, motorhome or trailer is fairly simple. All you need to do is find a scale to put it on. You can find them at most truck stops (Flying J), large recycling centers, waste transfer stations, and along most major highways. Some are free, othere may have a small fee. Check them out first before you take your rig there so you'll now what to do.
> 
> How to weigh is fairly simple, but it will depend on how long you are and how many individual scales there are.
> 
> Most truck stops have 3 separate platforms, so this makes it easy. Positon your rig so that each axle (or pair of axles) is on a separate platform and get a weight reading.
> 
> If there are only 1 or 2 platforms available, use them the best way you can to get individual axle weight readings. If it is just one long platform, pull onto (or off) the platform one axle at a time and get a reading. You'll need to do a little math to figure out how much weight is really on each axle. If there is someone working the scales, they may be able to help you with this.
> 
> Once you have your weight readings, compare them to the vehcile or trailer's GVWR and GAWR's for each axle. Also compare the total weight of vehcile and trailer to the GCWR.
> 
> DO NOT EXCEED THESE RATINGS!!! They are there for a reason...your safety and everyone else on the road.
> 
> Also check the load capacity of your tires. Each axle weight reading should be less than the combined weight rating of each tire. It's not uncommon for the GAWR to be more than the combined weight rating of each tire, and that's fine, but we really don't care about that. It's the GAWR we want to pay attention to.
> 
> If you are over any of the ratings, you'll need to reduce the load somehow. If it's a GAWR you're over, it could be as simple as moving things around. But if it's the GVWR or GCWR you're over, you need to take something out to reduce the load.
> 
> If you're looking at buying a new or used RV, it would be best if you could take it to a scale and get it weighed first because sometimes the "dry" weights listed in the sales brochures or on labels inside the RV are not as accurate as you would hope.
> 
> *How long?*
> 
> Due to the different characteristics of a fifth wheel trailer, *this applies more to a trailer than a fifth wheel*.
> 
> *Why is length such an important factor? Well, it's not really the length of the trailer that is as important as is the size (or wheelbase) of the tow vehicle trying to pull it. The main focus of this is to minimize trailer sway, which in many cases is caused by the wind from either Mother Nature or large vehicles passing you by.*
> 
> Basically, the longer the wheelbase the better! Think of it as leverage. The longer the trailer, the more leverage it can have on the tow vehicle. The longer the wheelbase of the tow vehicle, the more it can resist the leverage being applied from the trailer. You don't need a crew cab long bed truck to pull a pop-up that could easily be towed by a small SUV. But *you don't want to pull a 30' trailer behind that small SUV*. You want something longer. But don't get carried away, either. Let's see how it works.
> 
> You'll need 2 measurements, the wheelbase of your tow vehicle, and the total length of the trailer you are pulling (or intend to pull). That length is from the coupler to the back bumper.
> 
> *The First Guideline*
> (This guideline was first used by the RV Consumers Group rv.org)
> 
> *For the first 110" of wheelbase, this allows you 20' of trailer.
> 
> For each additional 4" of wheelbase, this gets you 1' more of trailer.
> 
> Wheelbase / Trailer length
> 110" = 20'
> 114" = 21'
> 118" = 22'
> and so on*
> 
> *************************************
> 
> OP,
> 
> This data fits right into why my 119" WB SUV with a towing capacity of 8.9K# works perfectly for us.
> 
> The < 106" WB on that JGC is not enough, thus the sway in natural wind or from big rigs will continue. Even though you say you don't believe you are maxing out your JGC, I would bet you are right up against all weight limits (when loaded with camping gear and troops sans water). I don't know if you have weighed your 21RS by itself loaded up but you better believe that it is over 6200#+. That is too close to your tow cap. and that alone will strain your JPG more than you want.


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## Mgonzo2u

MattFromPA said:


> Mgonzo2u - thanks for these details. I wish I had found this information before buying, but as I said I was under the impression I was going to be OK. Chrysler could do a better job with their towing guidance in the manual, but the onus is on me to conduct proper due diligence.
> 
> *Dry weight for the 21RS is supposed to be in the 4400 range?* I can't believe it would weigh 6200 when loaded up for a weekend. I'll get it weighed. Do you experience much turbulence or sway with the Durango? Our next SUV will likely be a Durango or something of that size.


Have you checked the VIN and info tag on the outside of the OB for weight or (used to be) on the inside one of the cabinets above the sink? Back in the'04-'05 model years (and older), there was confusion on weights provided by the mfg.. The confusion was if they were printing out the weight before they added all the accessories or after. Many here claim it was before the add-ons. That appears to have been their way to use the term "lite weight trailer" as a big selling point. But that left the onus on us, the end user, to weigh it ourselves and NOT believe what they indicated on the tags around the trailer. Since about '06, the mfg. was forced to show the weight after the model was completely built. So us older model owners are left to wonder and check for ourselves.

Perhaps my (unofficial) curb weight saying of 6200# is being liberal but it certainly feels like that much back there considering I've towed 5.5K# boats and heavier than 6200# heavy equipment (a short distance, once). Because my rig can handle up to 8.9K#, I never felt the need to officially weigh my set-up.

Just asking you to more or less to not trust what they tell you (or me even), trust your own eyes at the scales due to the possibility you are close. Another safety factor I discovered is that you should have a 1/3 extra towing cap. safety buffer which you are below regardless of how off I am with my weight guesstimate.

Towing safety is rule #1 for you and your family. There is no family camping enjoyment if you never reach your destination.

Good luck on your effort to ride safe.


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## Mgonzo2u

Looks like there was recent discussion about '05 OB weights in this very forum:

http://www.outbackers.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=30351


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## MattFromPA

The sticker on the kitchen cabinet door gives a UVW of 4340, and a CCC of 685. Even if the 4340 is dead on, still need to add propane and all of our gear (plus water if I was going to carry it). Will be getting it weighed to ease my mind a little on this issue. I have to say that having towed a 2500 lb pop-up for ten years, the Jeep handles the new load about how I expected it to. I can maintain 60 MPH on the highway at about 2500 RPM. If it did weigh over 6000 I would expect the Jeep to labor and I would feel it in the steering. I'd also expect the front end to really 'float' despite the WD hitch.

Nothing I can do about the Jeep wheelbase though, and the associated turbulence. Friction sway control has made a difference based on adjustments I made on the road. I am careful about tire pressure and drive conservatively. We decided to look at a larger SUV, to purchase next spring.


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## wolverine

My 2004 21RS weighs just under 6,000 lbs loaded for camping with a full tank of water, which is over the GVW. When I was underneath the trailer fixing a bad trailer brake wire I noticed the tags on the axles give a max weight of 2750 lbs each. That is where they get the 5500 lbs GVW. I don't plan on changing how much I load in my camper, because I don't always dry camp and I load most of the weight up front.


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## MattFromPA

I've pretty much ruled out carrying water, since the tank is in the back and that's not good for stability. That does save me 400 pounds. I load our gear in the front. We don't have a lot of extra stuff in the camper permanently other than cooking utensils and the like.



wolverine said:


> My 2004 21RS weighs just under 6,000 lbs loaded for camping with a full tank of water, which is over the GVW. When I was underneath the trailer fixing a bad trailer brake wire I noticed the tags on the axles give a max weight of 2750 lbs each. That is where they get the 5500 lbs GVW. I don't plan on changing how much I load in my camper, because I don't always dry camp and I load most of the weight up front.


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## Scoutr2

Mgonzo2u said:


> This is as close to the original chart I worked off of back when working on my due diligence on TV and new TT:
> 
> *Get weighed *
> 
> Weighing your car, truck, motorhome or trailer is fairly simple. All you need to do is find a scale to put it on. You can find them at most truck stops (Flying J), large recycling centers, waste transfer stations, and along most major highways. Some are free, othere may have a small fee. Check them out first before you take your rig there so you'll now what to do.
> 
> How to weigh is fairly simple, but it will depend on how long you are and how many individual scales there are.
> 
> Most truck stops have 3 separate platforms, so this makes it easy. Positon your rig so that each axle (or pair of axles) is on a separate platform and get a weight reading.
> 
> If there are only 1 or 2 platforms available, use them the best way you can to get individual axle weight readings. If it is just one long platform, pull onto (or off) the platform one axle at a time and get a reading. You'll need to do a little math to figure out how much weight is really on each axle. If there is someone working the scales, they may be able to help you with this.
> 
> Once you have your weight readings, compare them to the vehcile or trailer's GVWR and GAWR's for each axle. Also compare the total weight of vehcile and trailer to the GCWR.
> 
> DO NOT EXCEED THESE RATINGS!!! They are there for a reason...your safety and everyone else on the road.
> 
> Also check the load capacity of your tires. Each axle weight reading should be less than the combined weight rating of each tire. It's not uncommon for the GAWR to be more than the combined weight rating of each tire, and that's fine, but we really don't care about that. It's the GAWR we want to pay attention to.
> 
> If you are over any of the ratings, you'll need to reduce the load somehow. If it's a GAWR you're over, it could be as simple as moving things around. But if it's the GVWR or GCWR you're over, you need to take something out to reduce the load.
> 
> If you're looking at buying a new or used RV, it would be best if you could take it to a scale and get it weighed first because sometimes the "dry" weights listed in the sales brochures or on labels inside the RV are not as accurate as you would hope.
> 
> *How long?*
> 
> Due to the different characteristics of a fifth wheel trailer, *this applies more to a trailer than a fifth wheel*.
> 
> *Why is length such an important factor? Well, it's not really the length of the trailer that is as important as is the size (or wheelbase) of the tow vehicle trying to pull it. The main focus of this is to minimize trailer sway, which in many cases is caused by the wind from either Mother Nature or large vehicles passing you by.*
> 
> Basically, the longer the wheelbase the better! Think of it as leverage. The longer the trailer, the more leverage it can have on the tow vehicle. The longer the wheelbase of the tow vehicle, the more it can resist the leverage being applied from the trailer. You don't need a crew cab long bed truck to pull a pop-up that could easily be towed by a small SUV. But *you don't want to pull a 30' trailer behind that small SUV*. You want something longer. But don't get carried away, either. Let's see how it works.
> 
> You'll need 2 measurements, the wheelbase of your tow vehicle, and the total length of the trailer you are pulling (or intend to pull). That length is from the coupler to the back bumper.
> 
> *The First Guideline*
> (This guideline was first used by the RV Consumers Group rv.org)
> 
> *For the first 110" of wheelbase, this allows you 20' of trailer.
> 
> For each additional 4" of wheelbase, this gets you 1' more of trailer.
> 
> Wheelbase / Trailer length
> 110" = 20'
> 114" = 21'
> 118" = 22'
> and so on*
> 
> *************************************
> 
> OP,
> 
> This data fits right into why my 119" WB SUV with a towing capacity of 8.9K# works perfectly for us.
> 
> The < 106" WB on that JGC is not enough, thus the sway in natural wind or from big rigs will continue. Even though you say you don't believe you are maxing out your JGC, I would bet you are right up against all weight limits (when loaded with camping gear and troops sans water). I don't know if you have weighed your 21RS by itself loaded up but you better believe that it is over 6200#+. That is too close to your tow cap. and that alone will strain your JPG more than you want.


Agreed. This is a classic case of the tail wagging the dog.

Rule #1: Understand that the RV dealer (and most individuals) will tell you anything to get you to buy a trailer. Once you're off their lot and down the road, it's YOUR problem.

(I was told my 1500 Suburban would tow our new 29BHS just fine. It did not! Underpowered and the sway was awful. Upgrading to a 3/4-ton Crew Cab pickup made all the difference in the world.)

Rule #2: Truck and SUV dealers will tell you anything to sell you that new or used vehicle. Once you're off their lot and down the road, it's YOUR problem.

Rule #3: GVWR and towing capacity are two different numbers.

The Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) is the total weight that your tow vehicle can safely carry on all four wheels - that includes the weight of the vehicle itself, the passengers, their gear, and tongue weight from a towed trailer. Most SUVs that tow trailers are overloaded because of this confusion. The weight of the trailer may be under the rated towing capacity of the tow vehicle (TV), but if the TV's GVWR is exceeded, the TV will behave as you describe. Go to a scale and weigh your TV, with the trailer attached, along with all the normal passengers and their gear that usually rides in the TV. That will tell you what the actual GVW is. My guess - you are over that GVRW number, which means your tires and suspension are over the limit for safe, reliable handling and towing.

Just my (experienced) opinion.

Mike


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## luverofpeanuts

Lots of good info in this thread... good refresher for anyone.

I think another poster mentioned it, but I'll mention it again as well... if you are a ways off from replacing your tow vehicle... but could be nearing getting new tires for your jeep... go with LT rated tires, and even consider going to as wide of tire as you can go on your current rim... the stiffer sidewalls, and extra width will have some incremental benefit in sway and hobby-horsing behavior.


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## Nathan

It's really impossible for a manufacturer to spec out all variables. Wheelbase is always mentioned as is weight (both total and tounge weight). I think there are some other variables that are important to:

Trailer center of gravity
Sidewall area/shape
Frontal area/shape
Ratio of trailer weight to TV weight

No, I don't have the decoder to these other than smaller areas and lower CG is better as well as it's better to have a Truck that outweighs the trailer...


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## wolfwood

Ok, Kathy here from Wolfwood. We towed a 25RS with a Toyota 4 Runner for two years and loved it. The caveat is that we towed it with a Hensley Arrow and were within our weight limits. There is no sway with a Hensley. Yes, it's expensive - but less than a new truck. If you want to stay in your current vehicle, get the Hensley or the Propride. It compensates for the wheelbase. Calvin & Hobes can attest to it's effectiveness.

We now pull a fiver with our Toyota Tundra and it seems to like this even better than the 27KRS we moved up to.

Just our opinion, for what it's worth.


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