# Towing Limitations



## TNflipflop (Jul 15, 2009)

Was hoping to get some advice as I am new to the camping thing as far as campers go. Wife and I are looking at a Keystone 5th wheel that weighs in at just over 12000 lbs. I have an 04 GMC 2500HD with the 6.0L vortec motor and 410 rear end. Was wondering if my truck can handle the weight of the trailer. Thanks for any advice.


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## battalionchief3 (Jun 27, 2006)

6.0.....i dunno, thats pushing it. Diesel would be NO problem. My 8.1L 2500 burb with 4:10 gears is maxed out at 12k per GM. Its an 01 and every year is different but I think you would be maxed out.


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## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

I assume the 5'er is 12k dry? That means 13k loaded or thereabouts. You are pushing it. You could prolly air bag the rear end and the truck chassis would be ok. I would think that you are going to be real short on power - what trans do you have in that truck?

-CC


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

The trans is a 4L80.. 4 speed auto.

Well.... Hmmmm... My mom and dad pulled a 14k loaded 5er with a early 90's 1 ton chev with a 454 and 4L80..

That 6.0 is very close to the same power as those old 454,s. It makes its torque a bit higher in the rpm range, but overall power is close to those ole chevs.

I drove there rig a few times and it wasnt too bad.. It had about the same power as a heavilly loaded 1/2 ton.

We have a good 5-10 guys in my company who use that exact truck to pull rvs commercially. They say they dont win any races and have to stop often at the gas stations but can pull most any trailer dispatched to them.

It pretty much comes all down to you... Are you guy that has patience? Also do you have some extra cash laying around in case you smoke the tranny? You can have that tranny rebuilt to made as strong as an allison, but it will cost ya 4-5k..

All of the guys in my company have had bullit proof trannies made for them.

The weak link to your truck, isnt the engine, its the tranny..

Other than that, enjoy 7mpg and 35-40mph up steep hills, Thats still not bad as semis go around 30mph when they are loaded heavy up hills.. As long as you are going faster than a semi, you are not a road hazard..

Its your call sir.

Carey


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

Chief, the pickup tow ratings are much higher for 5th wheels than for a trailer. The 5th wheel rating for that vehicle is probably around 15k.

I'm seeing online that a 4-speed or 5-speed was std. depending on model version, and the 6-speed was optional. TNflipflop, can you say what tranny you have? Personally, I wouldn't do it without the 6-speed. The 4L80 is a fine piece of equipment, but I think you'd be a bit out of its element there. Maybe others can correct me from experience, but I'd think without the torque of the big-block you're going to do even more gear hunting in the hills with that thing.


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## webeopelas (Mar 11, 2006)

Only other worry is payload. Pin weight on a 12,000 lb dry trailer is going to be in the 2500-3500 range when loaded.

Not sure if the 2500 can handle that or not.


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## battalionchief3 (Jun 27, 2006)

Ok seems like you could do it if your not in a hurry. I think everyone would agree to upgrade the cooler. If you have the 4L80E then I would really really consider upgrading the cooler. Its puney at best. I went with both of these on mine and never got over 175 deg.
http://www.mag-hytec.com/
http://www.bmracing.com/PRODUCTS/Hi-Tek-Au...-Cooling-System

I got the big cooler...


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## outback loft (Sep 22, 2008)

My buddy who works for my local dealer, actually has a 3500HD with the 6.0, 4.10's and the 5 speed tranny. There are two different 6.0 motors though, his has the 6.0 vortec max motor, which puts out as much as the diesel. The 5 speed tranny is also the allison tranny. He is rated to tow 15,500 and it isnt even a dually. The catch to this truck is; that it is something that comes special order only, and is actually the same truck that the local state officials have for the parks. The truck does have air lift airbags to compensate for the weight of the trailers.

The lettering on the doors is my handiwork.


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## nynethead (Sep 23, 2005)

My vote would be you wouldn't be happy., i have an 06 2500hd lbz diesel which is the highest rated 5'er tow and it's limit is 14,200. the 04 gasser was a 300Hp motor.

my 5'er is 9K unloaded and probably 10+ loaded with a max of 11.5K. The truck does great with it and I am sure would have no problem all the way to the 14.2K.

The pin weight is the important, mine is only 1535lbs empty and probably just over 2K loaded. supposeded max payload fro the 06 was 3317lbs, but that does not include passengers, options, hitch and fuel.

here is an article:

Standard on all Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD pickups is a 6.0-liter V8 that makes 353 horsepower and 373 pound-feet of torque, paired to a six-speed automatic transmission. The burly Duramax 6.6-liter turbodiesel V8 that puts out 365 hp and 660 lb-ft of torque is optional. Its standard Allison six-speed automatic is well-suited for towing and hauling large loads. Any of the three available engines will provide swift acceleration and ample towing power, but the diesel V8 is probably the best choice for those who tow heavy loads -- especially the more powerful 2006 Duramax.

The torque on a gas engine is half that of a diesel, which could make for very slow acceleration.

The difference between a 2500HD and a single rear wheel 3500 is 3317 to 3592 payload and gvwr, 9200 to 9900 lbs. All the engines and trans are the same.

new 09 3500 is :

Base Number of Cylinders: 8 Base Engine Size: 6 liters 
Base Engine Type: V8 Horsepower: 360 hp 
Max Horsepower: 5400 rpm Torque: 380 ft-lbs. 
Max Torque: 4200 rpm Maximum Payload: 3592 lbs. 
Maximum Towing Capacity: 13000 lbs. Drive Type: 4WD

so you would be pushing it, maybe ok for the weekends but not for traveling any great distances.

just my 2cents


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## Southpaw (Jul 14, 2008)

My suggestion...buy a FORD!


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

The 6 speed auto came out in 2007 for the 6,0. Only the dmax had a 6 speed in 2004.

The 5 speed is an allison which is only behind a big block 496.

The 6.0 for 2004 only came with a 4L80.

Are you sure that 6.0 max in the picture is an allison? If its a 2007 it came with the new 6L80 6 speed gm trans. Its not an ally trans, its a gm trans.

Now that is as great a combo as the 8.1/allison.

I have run with a few of the guys who have the 2007 and up 6.0/6speed and they keep up with my cummins pretty well..

Boater Dan there was no 6 speed offered for a gas engine in 2004. Only the dmax had a 6 speed ally tranny.

This 2004 has a 4L80 and again it the weak point. But that can be fixed.


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Boater Dan there was no 6 speed offered for a gas engine in 2004. Only the dmax had a 6 speed ally tranny.


Do you have a good online source of information? I looked for a while and this was the best I could find: 2004 2500HD info

I like the "no data" on the mileage. If you have to ask...

Was the 5-speed auto an option on the 6.0 gasser?


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

BoaterDan said:


> Boater Dan there was no 6 speed offered for a gas engine in 2004. Only the dmax had a 6 speed ally tranny.


Do you have a good online source of information? I looked for a while and this was the best I could find: 2004 2500HD info

I like the "no data" on the mileage. If you have to ask...

Was the 5-speed auto an option on the 6.0 gasser?
[/quote]

The info is in my head.. Dont know where your gonna find it, lol

The 4L80 is a worked over turbo 400 with an overdrive added. It has been used for many years in GM trucks behind gas engines. Its last year it was used was 2006. The Suburban continued to use it till 2008.

The allison 5 speed was used in very early dmax trucks in 2001 and part of 2002. Then the 6speed allison was introd and is still being used.

The allison 5 speed was also used behind the 8.1 496 big block.

The standard 300 hp 6.0 gas engine only recieved the 4L80. Now as far as the Max 6.0 353/375 hp.. I never knew it was installed in the 3/4 ton trucks before 2007. It was used in Cadilac and GM sports trucks before 2007. So I dont know if one could order a 353/375 hp 6.0 with a 5 speed allison before the engine became standard in 2007. I have read and read over the years and have never seen an allison behind any 6.0 gas engine.. The 373 hp was used starting 2007.

I have a bud with a full time 4x4 chevy SS 1/2 ton with that 6.0 375 hp.. Its a hot rod.

The 1/2 ton Max edition recieved the 300 hp 6.0 with 4L80 in 2004

The 6.0 gas engine only came with the 4L80 up to 2006. Starting in 2007 GM 3/4/1 ton got the 6L80 6speed. The 6L80 is a GM trans and still is not strong enough to be used behind the dmax.

So now all that is available is the GM 6L80 for gas and 6 speed 1000 allison for dmax engines.

The 375 hp 6.0 along with the new 6L80 trans is as potent of a combo as the 8.1 big block with allison trans. If you want one they are available in 2007 and up GM trucks.

The 1/2 tons are now getting the 6L80 speed too starting in 2008. the 6.0 is now a 6.2 and makes 403 hp in 2009..

So now the gas engine of choice is a 6.2 403 hp with a 6speed auto.. One VERY potent combo!

Carey


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

webeopelas said:


> Only other worry is payload. Pin weight on a 12,000 lb dry trailer is going to be in the 2500-3500 range when loaded.
> 
> Not sure if the 2500 can handle that or not.


x2 on this thought.

My other thought is that at that weight, I'm assuming you are talking a full profile 5'er. Remember that that's a LOT of frontal area. Most tow ratings assume a much smaller frontal area than we are discussing here and when you get bigger, it reduces your tow capacity. In short, bucking a headwind with that setup will probably be quite a chore for the engine. I'm going to guess you'll need a tanker driving next to you to keep the engine supplied with gas.


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## TNflipflop (Jul 15, 2009)

Wow thanks for all the info it has more or less lead me away from the idea of pulling a 12000 lb camper...although it was a smokin deal gonna pass and find something that I feel more comfortable with. Again thanks for all the input....


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## BoaterDan (Jul 1, 2005)

Carey, as usual you're a source of tons of info.

There was a discussion some time ago about the 6.0, and us big blockers couldn't quite get over the lack of low-end grunt, even with the 6-speed to compensate with better torque multiplication. Good to hear practical feedback from someone with so much experience and exposure to these different combos.

According to the chevy web site, there's no 6.2L option when building a current 2009. Is that coming late-2009 or 2010 model year?


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## outback loft (Sep 22, 2008)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> The 6 speed auto came out in 2007 for the 6,0. Only the dmax had a 6 speed in 2004.
> 
> The 5 speed is an allison which is only behind a big block 496.
> 
> ...


The tranny is a 5 speed, and it is a 6.0 max. the truck is an 2006, but was special ordered, and is actually that combo. It was ordered in mid 06, and was delivered as an 06, not an 07, but it could be one of those weird combos you find. Like my friends 2005 suburban that has a factory duramax in it. (where in the heck does that come from??)


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## outback loft (Sep 22, 2008)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Boater Dan there was no 6 speed offered for a gas engine in 2004. Only the dmax had a 6 speed ally tranny.


Do you have a good online source of information? I looked for a while and this was the best I could find: 2004 2500HD info

I like the "no data" on the mileage. If you have to ask...

Was the 5-speed auto an option on the 6.0 gasser?
[/quote]

The info is in my head.. Dont know where your gonna find it, lol

The 4L80 is a worked over turbo 400 with an overdrive added. It has been used for many years in GM trucks behind gas engines. Its last year it was used was 2006. The Suburban continued to use it till 2008.

The allison 5 speed was used in very early dmax trucks in 2001 and part of 2002. Then the 6speed allison was introd and is still being used.

The allison 5 speed was also used behind the 8.1 496 big block.

The standard 300 hp 6.0 gas engine only recieved the 4L80. Now as far as the Max 6.0 353/375 hp.. I never knew it was installed in the 3/4 ton trucks before 2007. It was used in Cadilac and GM sports trucks before 2007. So I dont know if one could order a 353/375 hp 6.0 with a 5 speed allison before the engine became standard in 2007. I have read and read over the years and have never seen an allison behind any 6.0 gas engine.. The 373 hp was used starting 2007.

I have a bud with a full time 4x4 chevy SS 1/2 ton with that 6.0 375 hp.. Its a hot rod.

The 1/2 ton Max edition recieved the 300 hp 6.0 with 4L80 in 2004

The 6.0 gas engine only came with the 4L80 up to 2006. Starting in 2007 GM 3/4/1 ton got the 6L80 6speed. The 6L80 is a GM trans and still is not strong enough to be used behind the dmax.

So now all that is available is the GM 6L80 for gas and 6 speed 1000 allison for dmax engines.

The 375 hp 6.0 along with the new 6L80 trans is as potent of a combo as the 8.1 big block with allison trans. If you want one they are available in 2007 and up GM trucks.

The 1/2 tons are now getting the 6L80 speed too starting in 2008. the 6.0 is now a 6.2 and makes 403 hp in 2009..

So now the gas engine of choice is a 6.2 403 hp with a 6speed auto.. One VERY potent combo!

Carey
[/quote]

Or then you get people like me who do their own builds. My 1500 Silverado is running the 6.0 max and an allison 5 speed too. This was all done before I was towing and was done more for hot rod reasons. But now that I am towing I can say that my little truck scares the hell out of some people when they see me pull some of the upstate new york hills.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

outback loft said:


> Boater Dan there was no 6 speed offered for a gas engine in 2004. Only the dmax had a 6 speed ally tranny.


Do you have a good online source of information? I looked for a while and this was the best I could find: 2004 2500HD info

I like the "no data" on the mileage. If you have to ask...

Was the 5-speed auto an option on the 6.0 gasser?
[/quote]

The info is in my head.. Dont know where your gonna find it, lol

The 4L80 is a worked over turbo 400 with an overdrive added. It has been used for many years in GM trucks behind gas engines. Its last year it was used was 2006. The Suburban continued to use it till 2008.

The allison 5 speed was used in very early dmax trucks in 2001 and part of 2002. Then the 6speed allison was introd and is still being used.

The allison 5 speed was also used behind the 8.1 496 big block.

The standard 300 hp 6.0 gas engine only recieved the 4L80. Now as far as the Max 6.0 353/375 hp.. I never knew it was installed in the 3/4 ton trucks before 2007. It was used in Cadilac and GM sports trucks before 2007. So I dont know if one could order a 353/375 hp 6.0 with a 5 speed allison before the engine became standard in 2007. I have read and read over the years and have never seen an allison behind any 6.0 gas engine.. The 373 hp was used starting 2007.

I have a bud with a full time 4x4 chevy SS 1/2 ton with that 6.0 375 hp.. Its a hot rod.

The 1/2 ton Max edition recieved the 300 hp 6.0 with 4L80 in 2004

The 6.0 gas engine only came with the 4L80 up to 2006. Starting in 2007 GM 3/4/1 ton got the 6L80 6speed. The 6L80 is a GM trans and still is not strong enough to be used behind the dmax.

So now all that is available is the GM 6L80 for gas and 6 speed 1000 allison for dmax engines.

The 375 hp 6.0 along with the new 6L80 trans is as potent of a combo as the 8.1 big block with allison trans. If you want one they are available in 2007 and up GM trucks.

The 1/2 tons are now getting the 6L80 speed too starting in 2008. the 6.0 is now a 6.2 and makes 403 hp in 2009..

So now the gas engine of choice is a 6.2 403 hp with a 6speed auto.. One VERY potent combo!

Carey
[/quote]

Or then you get people like me who do their own builds. My 1500 Silverado is running the 6.0 max and an allison 5 speed too. This was all done before I was towing and was done more for hot rod reasons. But now that I am towing I can say that my little truck scares the hell out of some people when they see me pull some of the upstate new york hills.
[/quote]

Sounds like a very cool truck.. Bet its a runner!

Carey


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

outback loft said:


> The 6 speed auto came out in 2007 for the 6,0. Only the dmax had a 6 speed in 2004.
> 
> The 5 speed is an allison which is only behind a big block 496.
> 
> ...


The tranny is a 5 speed, and it is a 6.0 max. the truck is an 2006, but was special ordered, and is actually that combo. It was ordered in mid 06, and was delivered as an 06, not an 07, but it could be one of those weird combos you find. Like my friends 2005 suburban that has a factory duramax in it. (where in the heck does that come from??)
[/quote]

There are companies out there doing dmax conversions in suburbans.. Sure would be an awesome rig!

Carey


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## outback loft (Sep 22, 2008)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Boater Dan there was no 6 speed offered for a gas engine in 2004. Only the dmax had a 6 speed ally tranny.


Do you have a good online source of information? I looked for a while and this was the best I could find: 2004 2500HD info

I like the "no data" on the mileage. If you have to ask...

Was the 5-speed auto an option on the 6.0 gasser?
[/quote]

The info is in my head.. Dont know where your gonna find it, lol

The 4L80 is a worked over turbo 400 with an overdrive added. It has been used for many years in GM trucks behind gas engines. Its last year it was used was 2006. The Suburban continued to use it till 2008.

The allison 5 speed was used in very early dmax trucks in 2001 and part of 2002. Then the 6speed allison was introd and is still being used.

The allison 5 speed was also used behind the 8.1 496 big block.

The standard 300 hp 6.0 gas engine only recieved the 4L80. Now as far as the Max 6.0 353/375 hp.. I never knew it was installed in the 3/4 ton trucks before 2007. It was used in Cadilac and GM sports trucks before 2007. So I dont know if one could order a 353/375 hp 6.0 with a 5 speed allison before the engine became standard in 2007. I have read and read over the years and have never seen an allison behind any 6.0 gas engine.. The 373 hp was used starting 2007.

I have a bud with a full time 4x4 chevy SS 1/2 ton with that 6.0 375 hp.. Its a hot rod.

The 1/2 ton Max edition recieved the 300 hp 6.0 with 4L80 in 2004

The 6.0 gas engine only came with the 4L80 up to 2006. Starting in 2007 GM 3/4/1 ton got the 6L80 6speed. The 6L80 is a GM trans and still is not strong enough to be used behind the dmax.

So now all that is available is the GM 6L80 for gas and 6 speed 1000 allison for dmax engines.

The 375 hp 6.0 along with the new 6L80 trans is as potent of a combo as the 8.1 big block with allison trans. If you want one they are available in 2007 and up GM trucks.

The 1/2 tons are now getting the 6L80 speed too starting in 2008. the 6.0 is now a 6.2 and makes 403 hp in 2009..

So now the gas engine of choice is a 6.2 403 hp with a 6speed auto.. One VERY potent combo!

Carey
[/quote]

Or then you get people like me who do their own builds. My 1500 Silverado is running the 6.0 max and an allison 5 speed too. This was all done before I was towing and was done more for hot rod reasons. But now that I am towing I can say that my little truck scares the hell out of some people when they see me pull some of the upstate new york hills.
[/quote]

Sounds like a very cool truck.. Bet its a runner!

Carey
[/quote]

Oh it is definitely a runner. Empty the truck is fffaaasssttt, and even when towing, I have no problems with hills, passing, or even dragging the trailer off road.


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