# What A Nightmare!



## mswalt (Sep 14, 2004)

Towed the 31RQS to and from Lake Fork in East Texas over the weekend. What a nightmare!

For some reason, I could not get the trailer packed correctly. I've never had such sway and wiggle!

I was all over my lane and sometimes I know I was into other lanes. I stopped and juggled my stuff on several occasions. Nothing seemed to work.

My best guess is that I had too much weight in the rear and not enough on the hitch. I thought I adjusted for not carrying the kids' bikes and clothes in the bunkhouse but I guess I figured wrong.

I originally put most everything in the back. Wrong!

Moved some stuff to the front. Wrong!

Moved it back over the axles. Wrong!

Never did get it figured out. The only thing I know for sure, I DIDN"T LIKE IT ONE BIT!









When I came back from Port A a couple weeks ago, it was like nothing was behind me. Where did I go wrong?









Going to the storage lot and start over.

Mark


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Mark,

That could not have been a lot of fun.









Have you looked at other 'outside' factors, such as tire pressures, cross winds, etc.?
Broken leaf spring or shackle on the Outback?
It seems pretty odd that this would suddenly become such an extreme condition.

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## kbrazielTx (Apr 29, 2004)

Sorry to hear about your "White Knuckle" trip.







As you know I have been working on my set-up and the last trip was the best so far. What I did was move some weight forward and lowered my l-brackets and the setup made the ride much better. The only thing I noticed is I get a lettle more wiggle than before. My conclusion is when you are going to be in heavy winds you may want to come up a hole or two on your L Brackets. That will make the sway control work better. The downside is you get some bounce in the rear. But bounce is better than a crash!!!!!!









Heading to East Texas we always encounter cross winds and some uncomfortable moments. This week the winds have been very heavy so that is probably most of what happened to you. What is really uncomfortable is when you are traveling good with trees on both sides and then the trees end. Yep the next thing is a wall of wind hitting the trailer.

We will see what other opinions you get on this topic.

Glad you made it home safe.









Ken


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## mswalt (Sep 14, 2004)

> Heading to East Texas we always encounter cross winds and some uncomfortable moments. This week the winds have been very heavy so that is probably most of what happened to you. What is really uncomfortable is when you are traveling good with trees on both sides and then the trees end.


Ken,

I did notice, at times, that everything was going good. Then, back to the old sway again. I'll have to admit the ride was scary at best. It was really a white knuckle experience and one I don't want to experience again.

My brackets are almost to the top, throwing most of my weight forward onto the TT instead of the hitch itself. But I still think I should have put more weight into the front cargo area. Some of that I'd moved to the back cargo area and there were no clothes or anything in the front bedroom. And not much over the axles (only about 40 pounds of ice and some refrigerated foods in an ice chest). Most everything else was in the bunkhouse and in the back cargo area.

But it was still odd that at times, it was smooth sailing. Granted, those times were short-lived, but they were there. I _did_ notice some crosswinds, however. At first, I put the wiggle on those winds, but I think I just messed up and packed wrong.

Live and learn.

Mark


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Mark,

Other than the bikes, did you pack all that differently than normal? I can't imagine they would have made a huge difference by themselves. Also, what was the weight situation in your tanks? Where they carrying more or less than yo normally do?

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## mswalt (Sep 14, 2004)

> Other than the bikes, did you pack all that differently than normal? I can't imagine they would have made a huge difference by themselves. Also, what was the weight situation in your tanks? Where they carrying more or less than yo normally do?


The difference, at least what I can figure now, in regard to our recent trip to Port Aransas:

No clothes in front bedroom (two adults packed for a week; what, 100 pounds at most?)). No scooter in kitchen (above the axle - 50 pounds?). Three additional camping chairs in rear cargo area (usually stowed in front cargo area - 20 pounds?). No kids in TV (100 pounds). Nothing in the "trunk" of the Burb (100 pounds?)

I assume the TT tires were OK, (All right, I didn't check them first). Nothing in the tanks. I always tow empty.

I do have new tires on the TT. Inflated to 70 pounds. E-rated Toyos, LTs.

I can't think of amything else that was different. EXCEPT the ride!

Could the winds have had that much to do with it? They didn't seem that strong.









Mark


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Sounds like a trip to the scales is in order. I would want to know what is going on with the % of tongue weight you're carrying.


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## Texas Friends (Feb 12, 2006)

Hey Mark!

If I were a betting man, and i do love to go to Shreveport, (Texas Joke) I would put my money on the cross winds... For you traveling from Port A to home and back is mainly a north-south trip, and the predominent winds being north-south in texas. Now crossing over to the other side of Dallas Fort Worth from home would give you a cross wind the entire trip. I do notice a big difference in my tow when there is a cross wind, even slight winds I can feel more.

Sorry to hear the camp grounds were less then diserable but glad the margaritas were cold and the family company was fun...

Hope to see everyone soon.

Happy Camping

Bryan


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## Katrina (Dec 16, 2004)

mswalt said:


> > Other than the bikes, did you pack all that differently than normal? I can't imagine they would have made a huge difference by themselves. Also, what was the weight situation in your tanks? Where they carrying more or less than yo normally do?
> 
> 
> The difference, at least what I can figure now, in regard to our recent trip to Port Aransas:
> ...


Assuming you meant to say that the Toyos are on the TV and not the TT, Is this the first trip with these new tires?
And did you change tire sizes?
You may need to drop the ball height down a notch on the shank if you went up on tire size. Towing with the TT tongue high will cause what you describe.


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## mswalt (Sep 14, 2004)

> Assuming you meant to say that the Toyos are on the TV and not the TT, Is this the first trip with these new tires?
> And did you change tire sizes?
> You may need to drop the ball height down a notch on the shank if you went up on tire size. Towing with the TT tongue high will cause what you describe.


Toyos on the TT. Same size.

And, yes, first trip with the new tires.

Mark


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## Markh1 (Sep 11, 2005)

mswalt said:


> > Assuming you meant to say that the Toyos are on the TV and not the TT, Is this the first trip with these new tires?
> > And did you change tire sizes?
> > You may need to drop the ball height down a notch on the shank if you went up on tire size. Towing with the TT tongue high will cause what you describe.
> 
> ...


Sounds like the tires were the only material change you made. Has to be the culprit.

Maybe you can get your old tires back.


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## mswalt (Sep 14, 2004)

> Sounds like the tires were the only material change you made. Has to be the culprit.


You think so? Why would that do it? They are the same size, E-rated , 10-ply SUV LT tires.









Mark


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## Reverie (Aug 9, 2004)

A couple of things I would check (assuming these are appropiate to your setup):

1. Assymetric Load Distribution Arms: Are the arms set the same?
2. Sway Control Not Tight Enough: Crank that puppy down!
3. Load Too High: In addition to placing the load properly in the trailer make sure you have lowered the Center of Gravity (CG) as far as you can.
4. Assuming the weather was good I am willing to bet the air pressure in the tires could be significantly off.
5. If the weather was gusty I would go back to the setup because it should compensate for the weather.

Just my two centavos...

Reverie


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## Travelers (Apr 6, 2006)

Had the exact same issue last week on our 1200 mile trip with new Bridgestone 773's! Our 2004 3/4 Burb with 35,000 miles on it came with 773's and they were worn down to approx 5/32 but it towed our rsds very well. So, trying to be pro-active and safe, I get new 773's prior to our big trip and the instant I get on the road I notice that even when small cars passed me they caused lots of sway. I stopped and checked air pressure but had 80 rear & 60 front, checked the hitch and it all was great. The 1200 miles was the worst I ever had in 20 years of towing.

When I returned home I went back to the tire dealer and he gave me some great info. Seems like tires that have huge rubber blocks (like the 773's) and no center rib are great for mud & snow but lousy for towing. My old 773's were so worn down that they blocks didn't move around much. The best tow tires would be E rated slicks but these would also be bad for rain and snow. So, the dealer let me return the 773's and get Revo's that have a center rib and should cure the sway. Get them on tomorrow and I'll let ya know what happens.

I looked at the Toyo's but they also have blocks in the middle and no center rib on the tire. I think that was the problem for both of us. Also, tires take 500 - 1000 miles to get rid of the greasy coating on all new tires - Motorcycles are especially prone to this problem.


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## mik0445 (Jun 5, 2006)

Obviously you're weight difference isn't as big as what I enounter when pulling my roo empty, but you may try going down a link...that is less spring pressure on your hitch. It kinda sounds to me that you didn't have enough downpressure on your rear axle, which in combination with sticker tires, may have caused the drift. Just my thoughts...


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## egregg57 (Feb 13, 2006)

Well it definately doesn't sound like a mismatch between TT and TV. you should have plenty of TV for the job. I have found that the 31RQS is a pretty stable tow. I am not sure how tires could effect the swaying because I have no experience with it or have heard of it. But I am definately interested on how things will work out and what conclusions you come to as probably next year we'll need tires for our rolling suite. Good luck.

Eric


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## nynethead (Sep 23, 2005)

My .02 would be the fresh water supply. Were you carring water or empty, andf what about on previous tows. When I got my TT new I noticed it towed very well but was a big strain on my 1500. After I spent the night the next day I realized the fresh water tank was full, emptied out the 400lbs of water and the truck towed better, but had a little more bouncing. Since I upgrade my 800lb bars to 1200lb bars and that helped with the 1500. tomorrow I have to check and align my 2500 to see how the wd and hitch line up and feel.

I may have to add the fresh water for stability as the 2500 is 2" taller the the 1500 andI did not want to re-setup the whole wd system.


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## mswalt (Sep 14, 2004)

> My .02 would be the fresh water supply. Were you carring water or empty, andf what about on previous tows. When I got my TT new I noticed it towed very well but was a big strain on my 1500. After I spent the night the next day I realized the fresh water tank was full, emptied out the 400lbs of water and the truck towed better, but had a little more bouncing. Since I upgrade my 800lb bars to 1200lb bars and that helped with the 1500. tomorrow I have to check and align my 2500 to see how the wd and hitch line up and feel.


nynethead,

Nope. Nothing in the fresh water tank. Never have towed with any tanks full.

I am beginning to believe it's the tires, too. Went by my local dealer today, took the thread that Traveler worte yesterday and showed it to him. He said that could be it, too. Said he'd ask around to see what he could do for me. One suggestion was to try 4 other tires, tow the 31 and see how it does. May have to do that.

I am looking forward to gettnig this thing fixed. I DID NOT like the ride last weekend!

Mark


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## Humpty (Apr 20, 2005)

I have only had that problem once - with a full black tank (Empty Fresh) leaving Darlington. After I finally put the rig on the scales, I understand why. I need more tongue weight - I only have about 11%. I had always used the dinette storage for bottled water, soda, and a beer or 2. I try to keep these heavy liquids and the cooler up front. I also run with a little more fresh water now.


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

Here's something from Discount Tire's website:

*Why Use An "ST" Tire?

"ST" tires feature materials and construction to meet the higher load requirements and demands of trailering. 
The polyester cords are bigger than they would be for a comparable "P" or "LT" tire. 
The steel cords have a larger diameter and greater tensile strength to meet the additional load requirements. 
"ST" tire rubber compounds contain more chemicals to resist weather and ozone cracking. *

I would make sure that the new trailer tires are correct for their application. My $0.02

Bill


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

mswalt said:


> Went by my local dealer today, took the thread that Traveler worte yesterday and showed it to him. He said that could be it, too. Said he'd ask around to see what he could do for me. One suggestion was to try 4 other tires, tow the 31 and see how it does.


Mark,

Has your tire dealer indicated if he's willing to work with you $-wise on this? As you said, it's sounding more like a tire issue all the time, and it would be a shame if you had to pony up for another new set of tires!









Good luck with all of this!









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## Travelers (Apr 6, 2006)

Just replaced my new Bridgestone M773's (big square block lugs with no center rib) with new Bridgestone Revo's (small interlocking lugs with center rib). Both sets are E-rated tires and I will run 80lbs in rear and 60lbs up front. The ride now (without the TT) is stiffer with the Revo's than the M773's and I am planning to hook-up the TT on Sunday to see if the sway is any better. I want to get a few miles on the Revo's to wear off the "new tire grease" prior to the test. I'm not trying to sell Bridgestone tires to anyone, I'm just passing along some info from my tire dealer that recommends small lug tires with interlocking tread design and a center rib for best towing results.

Here in Minnesota I have to also be aware of winter traction because I tow a snowmobile trailer - usually in the worst of winter when it's the most fun. So, my tire choice kept these winter activities in mind. If I lived down south I would have opted for a complete rib designed commercial use highway tire with no lugs.

$.02


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## JimBo99 (Apr 25, 2006)

What is sway????


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## RizFam (Feb 25, 2006)

JimBo99 said:


> What is sway????


When your trailer is fishtailing behind you. To have the rear end of a forward-moving vehicle swerve from side to side out of control. It is a very scary thing.

Tami


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

RizFam said:


> What is sway????


When your trailer is fishtailing behind you. To have the rear end of a forward-moving vehicle swerve from side to side out of control. It is a very scary thing.

Tami
[/quote]

...he was poking fun at us as he has the Hensley hitch.


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## RizFam (Feb 25, 2006)

Oregon_Camper said:


> What is sway????


When your trailer is fishtailing behind you. To have the rear end of a forward-moving vehicle swerve from side to side out of control. It is a very scary thing.

Tami
[/quote]

...he was poking fun at us as he has the Hensley hitch.








[/quote]















I knew that


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## JimBo99 (Apr 25, 2006)

RizFam said:


> What is sway????


When your trailer is fishtailing behind you. To have the rear end of a forward-moving vehicle swerve from side to side out of control. It is a very scary thing.

Tami
[/quote]

...he was poking fun at us as he has the Hensley hitch.








[/quote]















I knew that








[/quote]


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

JimBo99 said:


> What is sway????


When your trailer is fishtailing behind you. To have the rear end of a forward-moving vehicle swerve from side to side out of control. It is a very scary thing.

Tami
[/quote]

...he was poking fun at us as he has the Hensley hitch.








[/quote]















I knew that








[/quote]
















[/quote]

I know I should not start a war here but Hensley's are not perfect. There is a known issue with them, it may not be common but you don't want to be complacent about this.

The Hensley hitch can cause an off center push when going down hill and entering a turn. The internal linkage is designed for pulling loads in a straight line but when the hitch goes into compression the hitch will push off center enough to cause the drive to over steer the TV.

Drive safe as the only really safety equipment is you.


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## willie226 (Apr 4, 2006)

So is it true if the tt starts to sway speed up alittle
that's what I was I was told

willie


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

That is correct Willie.

The worst thing you can do is brake hard. By accelerating, you will tend to 'stretch' the TV/TT combo out into a straight line, which will kill the sway. To make an analogy, and maybe illustrate the point Andy was making a little bit, imagine laying a string out on a table and holding the ends with each hand. One hand represents the front axle of your TV, the other the TT axle(s). The string itself represents everything inbetween (especially the hitch and rear axle of your TV). Now, if you allow there to be slack in the string between your hands, the string can wiggle all over the place. In fact, try blowing sideways against the string from down at table level. The string will move away from the 'wind'. That is sway. Now, to complete the analogy, pull the string tight! Instantly the slack is gone, and the sway stops. In fact, if you have enough tension in the string, it will not matter how hard you blow... your TV and TT are going to stay in a straight line!







And of course, pulling the string tight, is analogous to accelerating your TV. Do it hard enough, and you will straighten out that string, and kill the sway.









The rub is, you have to have the room to accelerate out of the sway. So we have another good reason not to tailgate. Always leave yourself - and be looking for - enough room to pull yourself out of trouble. The best thing, is just to learn to avoid situations that can cause sway in the first place. As Andy said, the best piece of anti-sway safety equipment we have, is sitting right on top of our shoulders!









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## wolfwood (Sep 19, 2005)

CamperAndy said:


> I know I should not start a war here but Hensley's are not perfect. There is a known issue with them, it may not be common but you don't want to be complacent about this.
> 
> The Hensley hitch can cause an off center push when going down hill and entering a turn. The internal linkage is designed for pulling loads in a straight line but when the hitch goes into compression the hitch will push off center enough to cause the drive to over steer the TV.
> 
> Drive safe as the only really safety equipment is you.


CamperAndy is correct, to a point. The Arrow does do this - depending on how it and the b/c are adjusted. However, when this is experienced, a minor adjustment to each is all that is needed. How do I know this? THIS is exactly the solution to what we 1st thought was a brake issue (on either the TV or the TT). When both checked out (& re-checked) clean - we called Hensley. They immediately (without pause, no deep breaths taken, this is routine stuff) advised of the adjustments - which we made. We then drove to the Adirondacks, through, & back again, and (this is where I disagree with CAndy - sorry) the Arrow has been reimstated as "perfect".

As for JimBo99's question - "Sway" is that which others have and we don't (even a little bit).


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Me neither... Not even a little bit!









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## sircarryalot (Jun 23, 2005)

mswalt said:


> > Other than the bikes, did you pack all that differently than normal? I can't imagine they would have made a huge difference by themselves. Also, what was the weight situation in your tanks? Where they carrying more or less than yo normally do?
> 
> 
> The difference, at least what I can figure now, in regard to our recent trip to Port Aransas:
> ...


Hey Mark is the TT and the TV Level. If the TT is low at the hitch and high at the bumper, this will also cause sway.

Strikey Mikey


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## OutbackPM (Sep 14, 2005)

I always read the input people have to control sway just in case I get it and need to react quickly. My set up has been rock solid in many driving situations including the 80+ mph truck pass.
My first though from the input I have seen is to go for the Prodigy manual lever to brake the trailer while still having some throttle to make that stretch of the tow link while overall speed comes down. The aero loads seem to be the real drivers of sway (not necessarily initiators) which will also reduce quickly as the speed comes down so reestablishing control.

Does anyone see a fault in this approach?


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## kjp1969 (Apr 25, 2004)

Hensley hitches may not be perfect, but their owners are extremely intelligent and good looking. In fact, Hensley will not sell a hitch unless the buyer meets these requirements.

Kevin P.


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## N7OQ (Jun 10, 2006)

kjp1969 said:


> Hensley hitches may not be perfect, but their owners are extremely intelligent and good looking. In fact, Hensley will not sell a hitch unless the buyer meets these requirements.
> 
> Kevin P.


Well that will explain a lot







I guess I should have sent a picture of my DW instead of me


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## JimBo99 (Apr 25, 2006)

Verstelle said:


> Hensley hitches may not be perfect, but their owners are extremely intelligent and good looking. In fact, Hensley will not sell a hitch unless the buyer meets these requirements.
> 
> Kevin P.


Well that will explain a lot







I guess I should have sent a picture of my DW instead of me








[/quote]

Looks like we got somethin' goin' here! I must agree on the intelligent and good looking part









I experienced just a bit of the "drive" from the Hensley downhill off the 11K pass. But I was going too fast. I had no problem compensating. But all in all this thing WORKS! I wouldn't trade it for any other. DW totally agrees, especially with the intelligent and good lookin' part.


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

Gettin deep in here?


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## wicandthing (Jul 11, 2005)

A lttle late here, but....

I had the same problem you were having back in March. It turned out that the Equalizer wasn't torqued down properly. There was no resistance on the bars. I could basically tap on them and they would swing around. After I applied the correct amount of torque to the bolts on the hitch, everything went back to normal. Now I check all the bolts before each trip.

Later,
Chad


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## GlenninTexas (Aug 11, 2004)

Mark,

I'd bet the tires coupled with a little bit more wind gusts combined to cause your problems. I do question running 70psi in the tires. I would think 50psi would be more than adequate for the amount of weight you have.

Regards, Glenn


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