# Showing A Braking Technique I Use For Downhills



## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

I made a video last saturday while pulling a Sundance 5er. I was grossing right at 19000lbs.

Here is the link: Click for video

I'm sure there may be a few comments on this idea. It goes against what is taught in truck driving schools, and in the public. This used to be taught 25-30 years ago.

Jab braking is considered the safest braking anymore.. I do the opposite and never let my foot off and only use 1/4 of the vehicles braking power.

Carey


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## W5CI (Apr 21, 2009)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> I made a video last saturday while pulling a Sundance 5er. I was grossing right at 19000lbs.
> 
> Here is the link: Click for video
> 
> ...


You try that on a very long hill or mt pass you will lose your brakes or catch on fire.

good luck


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## 5th Time Around (Jul 8, 2008)

Carey,

Watched the video, it is like watching Home Improvement and seeing Wilson just over the fence. lol.

Question from the non-driver in the house from Flat Florida; If you have an automatic transmission, would you downshift coming off a mountain? How do you know when you should be downshifting.

Our first trip to mountains is this summer. Never towed the fifth wheel over anything but an overpass.









Thanks


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

danny285 said:


> I made a video last saturday while pulling a Sundance 5er. I was grossing right at 19000lbs.
> 
> Here is the link: Click for video
> 
> ...


You try that on a very long hill or mt pass you will lose your brakes or catch on fire.

good luck
[/quote]

Nope sure wont... This isnt taught anymore.

This is a very long hill on a mtn pass. This is west out of the eisenhour tunnel on I70 in Colorado.

I have done this technique with 80klbs semis on Cabbage, in Oregon, and Wolf Creek pass in Colorado for many years.

This is the Safest way to descend a hill comparred to jab braking.

This is an old school method. Still works great though.

Carey


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

5th Time Around said:


> Carey,
> 
> Watched the video, it is like watching Home Improvement and seeing Wilson just over the fence. lol.
> 
> ...


Run off a hill in 2nd or 3rd gear.

Using your prodigy, just dial it to 2.0-2.4. around 2.0 works best. If the vehicle wants to speed up at that setting then downshift till you are able to hold vehicle while only using 2.0 on your controller. Keep engine rpms close to redline, maybe 3-400 under redline on a diesel, and 1000 or so rpms under redline on gas engines.

This is a totally new method for most. Just showing a method I have used for over 20 years and over 2 million miles as a trucker.. I have never smoked my brakes using this method, and was awarded bonus's for making my brakes last much longer than the normal drivers.

My dodge dually has 180k on its factory rear brakes and they are still above 1/2. I just replaced the front pads because I had some pad chipping.. They were at 1/2 when I replaced them.

The trick is to never apply more than 1/4 of total vehicle braking power.

On a semi I would never use no more than 10psi of brake pressure while desecnding a hill..

Just play with the idea all.. Just something new for most people.

Carey


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## Sayonara (Jul 23, 2007)

Seems like it would not be that good to do for long distances but i see you are using the engine rpms to help keep the speed down as well.

Good stuff.

Thanks for sharing !


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## Northern Wind (Nov 21, 2006)

I'm not arguing but it seems to me that the temp of the brakes would continue to rise as the friction continues? Just as rubbing to sticks together starts a fire, the speed or pressure does not change but the heat continues to rise and burst into flames, why is this different? Maybe I am missing something?

Steve


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Sayonara said:


> Seems like it would not be that good to do for long distances but i see you are using the engine rpms to help keep the speed down as well.
> 
> Good stuff.
> 
> Thanks for sharing !


Its excellent to do for long distances. Brakes never get hot this way. You are only bringing the brakes up to about 1/3 of the rated heat ability using this method. Pretty much you could go down a hill for eternity using this method and never cause much brake wear or brake heat..

Yes, you must use rpm's to make this work.. Engine must be placed close to redline.

Semis make maximum braking power with jake brake on at rpm redline. When descending a hill in a semi, the jake is used at its fullest potential which is redline. Then a small application of brake pedal is used to keep the engine at redline and not going over.

Look up specs on any jake and they are rated at engine redline.. An engine with no jake also makes maximum braking power close to redline..

You are using both engine braking and normal braking here.

People now use jab braking with there engine rpms down low.. For many this casues brake smoke and fires.. If seen a bunch of them.

This is very simple and much safer than jab braking as long as a very light brake application is used. 1/4 of total vehicle braking power.

The brake pads will bleed off heat very efficiantly using this method too. The pads stay in contact with there mating surfaces and allows very quick heat disapation..

I know few people have ever heard of this method and thats cool.. just another idea to try when descending a long steep mtn pass..

Carey


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Northern Wind said:


> I'm not arguing but it seems to me that the temp of the brakes would continue to rise as the friction continues? Just as rubbing to sticks together starts a fire, the speed or pressure does not change but the heat continues to rise and burst into flames, why is this different? Maybe I am missing something?
> 
> Steve


Using the jab method creates huge amounts heat very quick, then we expect the pads to dissapate heat very quick so they are fresh for the next application..

For many they over use the brakes and do not give enough cool off time in between.

A brake pad surface will actually liquify when its over heated. We expect the pads to cool wih air between applications.

Using a soft and gental apllication of brake creates 1 heat setting. The pad will not liquify if a light application is used for a very long distance. The heat caused by this method is transferred to the drum/rotor and the drum/rotor will stay at an exact temp throughout the brake application.

This method will only work when you stay at or below 1/4 of total brake power.

Since we have brake controllers it makes it easy to learn where 1/4 application is at.

If controller goes to 9 or 10, then right about 2.0 is 1/4 of brake appllication. When you have your controller set for that rate, then it becomes very easy to understand where 1/4 power is on your tow vehicle.

There is no rule to speed here.. The speed becomes correct when the proper gear is used along with 1/4 application of brake, to hold the vehicle on the hill..

I dont pay attention to my speed on a hill. I only pay attention to rpms.. Speed is not relative here.

It will take a bit to learn where the sweet spot is for the amount of weight you have. Once that is learned, you can almost predict what gear is needed for the hill.

Sorry about seeming like wilson.. I took the video all by myself.

Carey


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## Sayonara (Jul 23, 2007)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> If controller goes to 9 or 10, then right about 2.0 is 1/4 of brake appllication. When you have your controller set for that rate, then it becomes very easy to understand where 1/4 power is on your tow vehicle.


Doesn't that number only apply to the trailer brakes? So with my Tow Command, do i set the brake gain to 10 and ride it at about 25%? With the proper engine rpm too.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Sayonara said:


> If controller goes to 9 or 10, then right about 2.0 is 1/4 of brake appllication. When you have your controller set for that rate, then it becomes very easy to understand where 1/4 power is on your tow vehicle.


Doesn't that number only apply to the trailer brakes? So with my Tow Command, do i set the brake gain to 10 and ride it at about 25%? With the proper engine rpm too.
[/quote]

I have no clue how yours work..

On any brake controller just set the maximum brake application to 1/4. Then at that point the brake application on your tow vehicle will match as long as rpms arent climbing.

At that point you have just learned the proper pressure your tow vehicle requires for 1/4 brake application.

You are matching rpms and brake application to the brake controller.. This allows one to learn from the brake controller.

In semis we have a brake application gauge. This works excellent as long as 10psi or under is held.

The brake controller becomes ones brake application gauge once the vehicle stays at a an rpm. Using the 1/4 setting on the trailer forces a match of a 1/4 setting on he truck..

Carey


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## hazmat456 (Jul 26, 2007)

this is all dependant on what the pad compound is made of. they do have a optimum operating range. they will fade quickly once that range is exceeded. this may be okay for drum brakes for shorter periods of time, which have a lot of metal to help control heat but not disk,which is a relatively thin metal and will warp much easier
use your engine braking to control speed and save your brakes so that you have them when you need them.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

hazmat456 said:


> this is all dependant on what the pad compound is made of. they do have a optimum operating range. they will fade quickly once that range is exceeded. this may be okay for drum brakes for shorter periods of time, which have a lot of metal to help control heat but not disk,which is a relatively thin metal and will warp much easier
> use your engine braking to control speed and save your brakes so that you have them when you need them.


Again, have to disagree.. my truck has 4 wheel disc.

I do not make enough heat doing this to ever warp a rotor. A brake can be ridden for a very long period of time and never cause heat or pad wear.

I live in Colorado. I just run west hauling rv's. I do many, many mtn passes.

I just had my rotors checked at the parts store when I done my front brake pads. They said, a rotor turn wasnt really required.. I had very little runout. They buffed the rotors using a course pad and sent me on my way..

Truck had 180k miles..

If one only uses a minimal amount of brake to keep engine rpm close to redline while using proper gearing, there is no brake heat and no wear..

I know this method is very strange in our times of jab braking. This method was used for decades before though.

Yes a disc brake can handle jab braking much better than an rv with drum brakes..

But we dont see brake fires and burned down trucks.

We still see brake fires and burned down rvs though..

This method is used because the trailer has old time drum brakes. Im showing a method that will cause little heat and wear to benefit the rv not the truck..

The truck knows this brake heat as a very minimal thing.. The heat that is being applied here isnt enough to ever cause wear and excessive heat on the truck or the trailer.

I know few understand what I am trying to explain and show here.. But for those that play with it and try will find that they can go down any hill with full confidence using this method..

There are still many older truckers who use this.. They teach the newbies on the cb's everyday this method. After they learn and understand, there voice calms from a scared and shaky voice to a confident and secure voice..

I have pulled all sizes of rvs over 100kmiles with my truck now.. I have had many that I weighed in the 25000lb range and this same method worked excellent on those as well..

Its all about not using enough brake to ever create a problem, and that idea has been transferred to the method I shown..

Again, just play with it, the next time you are on a 10 mile 9-10% downgrade..

Carey


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Northern Wind said:


> I'm not arguing but it seems to me that the temp of the brakes would continue to rise as the friction continues? Just as rubbing to sticks together starts a fire, the speed or pressure does not change but the heat continues to rise and burst into flames, why is this different? Maybe I am missing something?
> 
> Steve


How bought if you rub those sticks together at one slow speed.. The two sticks will create some heat, but unless you move the sticks together at a faster rate the heat will stay at one temp... If the sticks arent moved together fast enough they will never catch fire.

Same idea here..

Carey


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> I'm not arguing but it seems to me that the temp of the brakes would continue to rise as the friction continues? Just as rubbing to sticks together starts a fire, the speed or pressure does not change but the heat continues to rise and burst into flames, why is this different? Maybe I am missing something?
> 
> Steve


How bought if you rub those sticks together at one slow speed.. The two sticks will create some heat, but unless you move the sticks together at a faster rate the heat will stay at one temp... If the sticks arent moved together fast enough they will never catch fire.

Same idea here..

Carey
[/quote]
Carey, I completely understand the logic here. I guess I'll have to trust you that the brakes are designed to dissipate the heat quicker that 1/4 of the braking power would generate... It sortof makes sense though....

Of course for the Autos with Tow/Haul mode, that tends to do a pretty good job of reigning in the speeds also.


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## KosinTrouble (Jul 18, 2005)

Actually Colorado's analogy of the two sticks being rubbed together at a slow speed will never catch fire is quite accurate. But the key to all of it, is like he said finding the sweet spot of that ~25% braking. My uncle who is a rig driver for oil companys uses the excact same technique. I have asked him why he always rides the brake and he basically told me the same as above. As long as the friction/pressure of your brakes are making less heat than the cooling of the brakes from either air or disapation of heat through drum/disc they will never catch fire.

To look at the wear/tear of the drum/disc and pads you can take a piece of wood and a piece of sand paper and lightly rub them together at a constant speed, you would get some wood dust and the wood would heat up. But now maintain that same speed as before and press harder on the wood, you will find more wood dust but you will also find small pieces of the sandpaper grain. Same thing will happen to your brake pads. (not a great example, but I do wood working so it makes sense to me.)

Kos


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Kos,

Yep great explanation. This is a normal truck driver thing.. Works equally well when needed in automotive use.. Problem is explaining to people how great it works. Its a hard thing to do. One reason they quit teaching this in trucking was that they figure a person will learn the proper techniques out on the road. Its doesnt make much since to people so its hard to teach in trucking schools.

The sanding of wood is a great explanation to me.

Thanks!

Carey


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## Sayonara (Jul 23, 2007)

I like the concept. im just worried that ill be beyond my sweet spot and ill burn something up.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Sayonara said:


> I like the concept. im just worried that ill be beyond my sweet spot and ill burn something up.


Youll never go beyond the sweet spot if you your brake controller is set to only apply 20-25%. Having the engine rpms being held near redline using that 20-25% and the engine telling you its happy to stay there automaticly sets the sweet spot.

If the engine is still climbing in rpms with while using the 20-25% setting, means a lower gear is needed.

Simply brake it down somemore and drop a gear. Within 1/2 a mile at the top of any hill, one can find the sweet spot of rpms, gearing, and applied brake application that the hill is requiring.

Like Nathan said, the Tow/Haul works pretty well to control things.. So at that point just use 25% braking power when applying your brakes and use the correct gear to achieve a steady engine rpm. You will find you will be comfortable and safe as you know in your mind just from pedal feel that you are mastering the hill.. Many people feel the hill is there master and are nervous all the way down..

Using these methods allows one to feel secure and safe when going down any hill in North America.

Carey


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Sayonara said:


> I like the concept. im just worried that ill be beyond my sweet spot and ill burn something up.


Based on what I experienced with tow haul last summer with the Super Duty, you shouldn't have to hit the brakes that much. There were acutally hills where with tow haul engaged, it started slowing me down too much and I had to hit the accelerator








Of course after a quick tap, it realizes you want to go faster and lets your speed creep back up some.

I didn't cross the rockies on I70, but coming out of the Bighorn mountains in WY, with a 6% grade was completely comfortable with very little need for brakes. As it turned out, we went down that hill smelling burning brakes, but it was due to the Chevy in front of us that was towing a similar sized trailer









I had always been told to never ride the brakes, but I suppose this makes sense and if I need to this summer, I'll give the technique a try!


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## battalionchief3 (Jun 27, 2006)

Wouldn't that technique as far as RP M's that high cause a lot of heat in the transmission. I have pulled the trans into 2nd crossing through Luray and never touched the brakes, speed of 20mph and my trans heated up to 200 but I have a HUGH cooler and deep pan. It cooled right off off the hills and back in OD. I understand the brake thing in reference to heat and agree but I would worry about my auto tranny having a melt down?


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

battalionchief3 said:


> Wouldn't that technique as far as RP M's that high cause a lot of heat in the transmission. I have pulled the trans into 2nd crossing through Luray and never touched the brakes, speed of 20mph and my trans heated up to 200 but I have a HUGH cooler and deep pan. It cooled right off off the hills and back in OD. I understand the brake thing in reference to heat and agree but I would worry about my auto tranny having a melt down?


200 sure wont hurt an automatic.. I cant see any hill getting an auto tranny hot enough to worry about if speeds are decent to allow cooling accross the radiators.

Many times the engine fan disengages down a hill, so you have to rely on air speed to cool things..

I would say it was more the 20mph more than downhill that was causing the heat.

If you select to the next higher gear and use some brakes to control things, the tranny will stay cooler.

This method allows dropping off of a hill and not totally relying on engine braking to do the job, which means much faster speeds.

In the video I was doing right at 50mph with 19000lbs on a 7% grade, 8 miles down. 50 mph is very fast for that steep of a hill with that kind of weight.

If you have a twisty curvy road, than yes its harder to do a steady brake pressure. So that point try not to go beyond 25% braking and prepare for the tight curve a bit quicker than now.

Ok.. I got to go lay under my truck.. Have a good day all!







Fun stuff here its hard to leave!

Carey


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## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

Thanks for the video and the tips for descending - really appreciate it!

-CC


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Nathan said:


> I like the concept. im just worried that ill be beyond my sweet spot and ill burn something up.


Based on what I experienced with tow haul last summer with the Super Duty, you shouldn't have to hit the brakes that much. There were acutally hills where with tow haul engaged, it started slowing me down too much and I had to hit the accelerator








Of course after a quick tap, it realizes you want to go faster and lets your speed creep back up some.

I didn't cross the rockies on I70, but coming out of the Bighorn mountains in WY, with a 6% grade was completely comfortable with very little need for brakes. As it turned out, we went down that hill smelling burning brakes, but it was due to the Chevy in front of us that was towing a similar sized trailer









I had always been told to never ride the brakes, but I suppose this makes sense and if I need to this summer, I'll give the technique a try!
[/quote]

The million dollar highway south of Ouray will test everything you got Nathan. Yea the trucks with jakes and tranny brakes do well down hills. But they will even get out of hand if enough weight is pulled..

Just toss into the back of your heads guys.. Just something new to try..

Carey


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## battalionchief3 (Jun 27, 2006)

I see your point and hes the road has a LOT of switch backs, its not an interstate, More like a sick back road. I talked to a friend of mine who was a driver for years and they taught him in school the same brake technique.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

On inter-state or large state highways where they try to limit the curves I have found a easy way to control speed. As I top a hill I set the cruise control for 5 mph less then what I want to go and with the truck in TOW/HAUL, as soon as it sees no throttle and speed above the cruise set point it down shifts and engine/transmission brakes the truck. So far on 7% grades I have managed okay and seldom have to touch the brakes, if I do I use just enough manual brakes on the trailer to cause it to begin to decelerate. I have never looked at the percentage as that would not mean much as brakes are all adjusted differently. I do it by feel. As soon as I see the speed is dropping I let up on the brake control. I do 3 or 4 mph swings, not stabs but gradual decel and accel. This only happens on really steep grades. So I guess in a way I am doing what Carey does but not consistently.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

CamperAndy said:


> On inter-state or large state highways where they try to limit the curves I have found a easy way to control speed. As I top a hill I set the cruise control for 5 mph less then what I want to go and with the truck in TOW/HAUL, as soon as it sees no throttle and speed above the cruise set point it down shifts and engine/transmission brakes the truck. So far on 7% grades I have managed okay and seldom have to touch the brakes, if I do I use just enough manual brakes on the trailer to cause it to begin to decelerate. I have never looked at the percentage as that would not mean much as brakes are all adjusted differently. I do it by feel. As soon as I see the speed is dropping I let up on the brake control. I do 3 or 4 mph swings, not stabs but gradual decel and accel. This only happens on really steep grades. So I guess in a way I am doing what Carey does but not consistently.


 Yep you sure are.. With all of these trucks having such good tow/haul modes, braking is easier than using a manual tranny.

Whats your gross combined weight, Andy?

Carey


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

The 31rqs is 9,500 to 10,000 pounds loaded, we don't leave much at home. I have not weighed the combo this year yet, only been out once, we always seem to add and remove stuff. So I am sure it fluctuates but must be on average about 18,500 to 19,000.


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## Dan Borer (Feb 6, 2009)

I learned the same method when I was trained to drive for FedEx in 1982. Used that technique for 25 years of safe driver before I retired. I use the same technique towing my Outback with my F150 and it still works great. It's interesting when making a descent and if you smell hot brakes just take a look ahead for the poor soul jabbing his brake pedal and you'll find (and see) the source of the odor.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

CamperAndy said:


> The 31rqs is 9,500 to 10,000 pounds loaded, we don't leave much at home. I have not weighed the combo this year yet, only been out once, we always seem to add and remove stuff. So I am sure it fluctuates but must be on average about 18,500 to 19,000.


I figured youd be right about 19000.. Dont feel bad we have the bring along bug so bad that we have to even bring the dirt bikes.. lol.

Carey


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Dan Borer said:


> I learned the same method when I was trained to drive for FedEx in 1982. Used that technique for 25 years of safe driver before I retired. I use the same technique towing my Outback with my F150 and it still works great. It's interesting when making a descent and if you smell hot brakes just take a look ahead for the poor soul jabbing his brake pedal and you'll find (and see) the source of the odor.


lol.. Aint much worse of a smell as hot brakes.. Some of those semis are so bad, they about make guy sick..

See em everyday here.

I made a video going off of Vail pass too.. Sure enough I passed a semi setting there waiting for his badly smoking brakes to cool. I figured one video was enough so I didnt download it to you tube.

Carey


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