# Reverse Osmosis



## swanny (Oct 31, 2007)

Hi all, I have a question about reverse osmosis (RO). Does anybody use one? If so what are the pro and cons? Thinking of getting one for under the counter for drinking water.

Thanks, Kevin


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## Northern Wind (Nov 21, 2006)

In my industry we use RO systems in almost every site (car wash) that we build. Its used for the spot free rinse system so when the car leaves the car wash and sits in the sun the finish does not look like its covered in little white spots. RO water is pure water, but it is also hungry water, and that can be dangerous. To create RO water you remove all the mineral and particulates in the water so it becomes very acidic and as all things in nature it tries to return to its natural state. That's why its called hungry water, it looks for the minerals that have been removed, and it looks for them where ever it can find them, it may be in the taps, or it may be in you! Most people have no idea that you should not drink RO water as your only source as it can be hard on your system, especially pregnant women. Spring water and tap water are much better for you, bottlers of water don't tell you this as the water industry is completely unregulated, but trust me I have seen what RO water has done to stainless steel and concrete storage tanks and brass and copper fittings in as little as eight months is very scary. Keep in mind when installing a filter system that most are not true RO systems as they don't use carbon pre filters and also don't filter through several different wrapped filters under high pressure, most use just a cardboard filter and this is just removing what we call the chewy parts, these won't hurt you. In fact its the chewy parts or TDS (total dissolved solids) that give water flavour, anything under 150 TDS is very bland, boring water.

Good luck and hope this helps!

Steve


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## Just Add Dirt (May 5, 2009)

See my post under:
http://www.outbackers.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=372790

Just Add Dirt


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

Northern Wind said:


> In my industry we use RO systems in almost every site (car wash) that we build. Its used for the spot free rinse system so when the car leaves the car wash and sits in the sun the finish does not look like its covered in little white spots. RO water is pure water, but it is also hungry water, and that can be dangerous. To create RO water you remove all the mineral and particulates in the water so it becomes very acidic and as all things in nature it tries to return to its natural state. That's why its called hungry water, it looks for the minerals that have been removed, and it looks for them where ever it can find them, it may be in the taps, or it may be in you! Most people have no idea that you should not drink RO water as your only source as it can be hard on your system, especially pregnant women. Spring water and tap water are much better for you, bottlers of water don't tell you this as the water industry is completely unregulated, but trust me I have seen what RO water has done to stainless steel and concrete storage tanks and brass and copper fittings in as little as eight months is very scary. Keep in mind when installing a filter system that most are not true RO systems as they don't use carbon pre filters and also don't filter through several different wrapped filters under high pressure, most use just a cardboard filter and this is just removing what we call the chewy parts, these won't hurt you. In fact its the chewy parts or TDS (total dissolved solids) that give water flavour, anything under 150 TDS is very bland, boring water.
> 
> Good luck and hope this helps!
> 
> Steve


Wow...I never knew that. Thanks for my "learn something new every day" lesson.


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Oregon_Camper said:


> In my industry we use RO systems in almost every site (car wash) that we build. Its used for the spot free rinse system so when the car leaves the car wash and sits in the sun the finish does not look like its covered in little white spots. RO water is pure water, but it is also hungry water, and that can be dangerous. To create RO water you remove all the mineral and particulates in the water so it becomes very acidic and as all things in nature it tries to return to its natural state. That's why its called hungry water, it looks for the minerals that have been removed, and it looks for them where ever it can find them, it may be in the taps, or it may be in you! Most people have no idea that you should not drink RO water as your only source as it can be hard on your system, especially pregnant women. Spring water and tap water are much better for you, bottlers of water don't tell you this as the water industry is completely unregulated, but trust me I have seen what RO water has done to stainless steel and concrete storage tanks and brass and copper fittings in as little as eight months is very scary. Keep in mind when installing a filter system that most are not true RO systems as they don't use carbon pre filters and also don't filter through several different wrapped filters under high pressure, most use just a cardboard filter and this is just removing what we call the chewy parts, these won't hurt you. In fact its the chewy parts or TDS (total dissolved solids) that give water flavour, anything under 150 TDS is very bland, boring water.
> 
> Good luck and hope this helps!
> 
> Steve


Wow...I never knew that. Thanks for my "learn something new every day" lesson.








[/quote]
X2!!!!!!!

I do know that RO icecubes are clear and that it doesn't leave waterspots. NEver thought of the mineral issue though...


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## swanny (Oct 31, 2007)

Thank you Northern wind. I wasn't aware of that. So then is RO water the same as distilled water? I know distilled water will remove minerals from your body if one would drink too much. If I remember correctly you can drink distilled water to remove toxins from your body. So what type of purification system is recommended?

Great info, thanks, kevin


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## Just Add Dirt (May 5, 2009)

Northern Wind said:


> In my industry we use RO systems in almost every site (car wash) that we build. Its used for the spot free rinse system so when the car leaves the car wash and sits in the sun the finish does not look like its covered in little white spots. RO water is pure water, but it is also hungry water, and that can be dangerous. To create RO water you remove all the mineral and particulates in the water so it becomes very acidic and as all things in nature it tries to return to its natural state. That's why its called hungry water, it looks for the minerals that have been removed, and it looks for them where ever it can find them, it may be in the taps, or it may be in you! Most people have no idea that you should not drink RO water as your only source as it can be hard on your system, especially pregnant women. Spring water and tap water are much better for you, bottlers of water don't tell you this as the water industry is completely unregulated, but trust me I have seen what RO water has done to stainless steel and concrete storage tanks and brass and copper fittings in as little as eight months is very scary. Keep in mind when installing a filter system that most are not true RO systems as they don't use carbon pre filters and also don't filter through several different wrapped filters under high pressure, most use just a cardboard filter and this is just removing what we call the chewy parts, these won't hurt you. In fact its the chewy parts or TDS (total dissolved solids) that give water flavour, anything under 150 TDS is very bland, boring water.
> 
> Good luck and hope this helps!
> 
> Steve


Steve:
In my industry we sell R/O's from small POU (point of use) systems installed as a second faucet on the customers sink, to systems that are used by municipalities to provide fresh clean drinking water to entire communities. Water from an R/O is NOT "hungry" please refer to the Langier Saturation Index sometime refered to as the Ryzners Stability Index to determine if water is "hungry":

Langelier Saturation Index (LSI):The Langelier Saturation Index (sometimes Langelier Stability Index) is a calculated number used to predict the calcium carbonate (CaCO3) stability of water. It indicates whether the water will precipitate, dissolve, or be in equilibrium with calcium carbonate. Langelier developed a method for predicting the pH at which water is saturated in calcium carbonate (called pHs). The LSI is expressed as the difference between the actual system pH and the saturation pH.

LSI = pH - pHs

If the actual pH of the water is below the calculated saturation pH, the LSI is negative and the water has a very limited scaling potential. If the actual pH exceeds pHs, the LSI is positive, and being supersaturated with CaCO3, the water has a tendency to form scale. At increasing positive index values, the scaling potential increases.

Langelier saturation index is defined as:

LSI = pH (measured) - pHs


For LSI > 0, water is super saturated and tends to precipitate a scale layer of CaCO3.
For LSI = 0, water is saturated (in equilibrium) with CaCO3. A scale layer of CaCO3 is neither precipitated nor dissolved.
For LSI < 0, water is under saturated and tends to dissolve solid CaCO3.
In practice, water with an LSI between -0.5 and +0.5 will not display enhanced mineral dissolving or scale forming properties. Water with an LSI below -0.5 tends to exhibit noticeably increased dissolving abilities while water with an LSI above +0.5 tends to exhibit noticeably increased scale forming properties.

It is also worth noting that the LSI is temperature sensitive. The LSI becomes more positive as the water temperature increases. This has particular implications in situations where well water is used. The temperature of the water when it first exits the well is often significantly lower than the temperature inside the building served by the well or at the laboratory where the LSI measurement is made. This increase in temperature can cause scaling, especially in cases such as hot water heaters.

Ryznar Stability Index (RSI):

The Ryznar stability index (RSI) uses a database of scale thickness measurements in municipal water systems to predict the effect of water chemistry.

Ryznar saturation index (RSI) was developed from empirical observations of corrosion rates and film formation in steel mains.

Ryznar saturation index is defined as:

RSI = 2 pHs - pH (measured)


For 6,5 < RSI < 7 water is considered to be approximately at saturation equilibrium with calcium carbonate
For RSI > 8 water is under saturated and, therefore, would tend to dissolve any existing solid CaCO3
For RSI < 6,5 water tends to be scale forming

Water that wants to "absorb" calciulm hardnes is considered "hungry". In my industry we sell various treatment sytems for a wide range of applications (including car washes) and one of these applications is boilers. Sometimes we intentionally make the water "hungry" not only to prevent scale formation on the boiler tubes, but also to absorb any calcium carbonate build-up that may have occured. First we soften the water than we introduce EDTA (ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid) this is what is known as a chelating agent. A lot of people are put on EDTA to remove plaque in their circulatory system. It makes water "hungry".

While I agree that R/O water is striped of nearly all mineral content, it is also striped of all contaminents, including harmful agents such as radium & radon, MTBE; an extreme toxin added to petrolium products, which is leaching into ground water everywhere in the US, from leaky storage tanks. See: http://www.epa.gov/s...lated/mtbe.html

An R/O also removes deadly microbes such as Cryptosporidium, *Fecal Coliform and **E coli* and *Coliform bacteria*. 

A reverse osmosis system does not make water acidic, conversely, it make water want to become neutral (pH 7.0):
pH is a measure of how acidic/basic water is. The range goes from 0 - 14, with 7 being neutral. pHs of less than 7 indicate acidity, whereas a pH of greater than 7 indicates a base. pH is really a measure of the relative amount of free hydrogen and hydroxyl ions in the water. Water that has more free hydrogen ions is acidic, whereas water that has more free hydroxyl ions is basic. Since pH can be affected by chemicals in the water, pH is an important indicator of water that is changing chemically. pH is reported in "logarithmic units," like the Richter scale, which measures earthquakes. Each number represents a 10-fold change in the acidity/basicness of the water. Water with a pH of five is ten times more acidic than water having a pH of six. 
Since pH is affected by chemicals in the water by removing those chemicals the water will want to become neutral in pH.

R/O water does have a raw taste but taste is a matter of perspective. and mineral supplements can be added to R/O water. I have to do this whenever I turnover my aquarium and fill it with R/O water: R/O water will kill fish; It has to be suplemented.
That being said the benifits of polution and disease free water is well worth tolerating a slightly "raw" flavor. 
A true R/O system will have a "membrane" not just an assortment of filters:
PLEASE READ THIS ON WHAT A R/O IS AND HOW IT WORKS:
http://www.ag.ndsu.e...sys/ae1047w.htm

If a person is so concerned that their not getting enough minerals from their water, his or her diet can be augmented with mineral supplements. 
The benifits of consuming R/O water over unfiltered water far outweigh a slightly raw flavour.

About your statement:
"I have seen what RO water has done to stainless steel and concrete storage tanks and brass and copper fittings in as little as eight months is very scary" 
Maybe you need to run an analysis of the water that is running thru the stainless plumbing and storage tanks, and copper fittings. R/O water should not be causing any detrimental effects on those plumbing fixtures. Use the enclosed LSI index to determine the solubility of the water running thru and being stored in these fixtures. Also: are there any additives in the water? does the water go thru a softener before it passes thru the R/O? Also; your storage tanks of concrete are made of calcium cabonate (the main ingredient in concrete). If the water is disolving the stoage tanks then maybe you need to store the water in something else. R/O water will disolve calcium carbonate without being "hungry" it's just natural; it will also dissolve sugar and salt and a whole host of other soluables.

By the way not only do I have an R/O on the Outback (I wouldn't drink "campground" water with out it), But I also have a whole house R/O on my home. Not only have I never seen R/O water do what you've described to any of my customer's plumbing, one of my biggest customers being the FDA; they need R/O water, and lots of it, for untainted testing. All the plumbing at my home which includes Stainless and Copper, is untarnished , as is the interior of my 200 gallon R/O steel storage tank. The reason I have a whole house R/O is because my well water has over 4000pc/L radon, which is the second leading cause of lung cancer in the US only surpassed by smoking, and an R/O removes radon from well water. I trust, not only my life, but the lives of my family, to that R/O.

Eric
AKA
The President of WaterPro Inc.
BS: Chemical Engineering.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Eric, for s minute I thought your post was a cut in past from Wikipedia but after reading it I can see it is not and shows you very deep knowledge of the subject. Thanks.

I don't use a RO system in my trailer, just an activated charcoal filter.


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## swanny (Oct 31, 2007)

WOW!!!! That is great info. Thank you Eric. I do think i will be going with a RO system for my rig, your right, all that other stuff is a lot scarier. Eric what system do yo recommend for an rv?

I will be a bit bold here







, If others want to buy RO systems, maybe we could get a group buy.









Again, thanks a lot

Kevin

Camper Andy, I'm sure Eric will know but. I think the absorption of radon into the charcoal can be a problem.


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## Just Add Dirt (May 5, 2009)

With Doug's strick rules against commercial advertising in mind
SEE:
http://www.outbacker...showtopic=28930

I will not sell or attempt to sell anything to anyone here on Outbackers.com. The unit I use in the Outback, is a counter top basic 3 stage unit with a 30 micron (mc) sediment filter, a GAC (granular activated carbon) carbon prefilter, and aTFC membrane that produces about 1-2 gallons per hour depending on water temperature. 
It looks very much like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/...=item4141255b6a

The price for this unit on ebay is outragous; these unit can be had for 2/3 that amount retail.

Another Link; this one has bulk pricing:
http://www.waterfilt...rse-osmosis.asp

I took the faucet fitting off the supply line and put a 1/8" hose barb --> to "male hose thread" fitting on it and I connect it with a hose "Y" adapter, right to the water hookup at the campground. I set it on top of the outside stove; all our drinking water comes from this. For anyone who wants a drink, I have clean cups by it and it lessens the in & out traffic to get a drink. The unit has what is called "reject water" (the bad stuff) and rather than fill my grey water via the sink, by setting it outside, the reject provides water to the folage around my campsite.

My company, WaterPro Inc., is an authorized dealer of Watts Water Products http://www.watts.com/default.asp

Eric

<BTW> Camper Andy; I did Google "LSI" and pasted from Wikipedia after I slightly modified the text; it lessened my keyboard time







that was very observant of you!


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

Just Add Dirt said:


> With Doug's strick rules against commercial advertising in mind
> SEE:
> http://www.outbacker...showtopic=28930


I don't think the intent of Doug's post was to stop us fro selling/helping other when possible. If your company can provide us with a nice product as great price, then I think we should be able to buy from you.

I do however think the reason behind Doug post was to stop people from advertising company/product in there sig or in a lot of post


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## Northern Wind (Nov 21, 2006)

I guess I've been told!


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## Lmbevard (Mar 18, 2006)

Northern Wind said:


> I guess I've been told!


I do think that some of what you said is useful though. If you produce Ultrapure water, that stuff can eat glass! BUT, to produce that pure of water takes a triple distill water system fed with ultrapure water. Home systems that we would use in a RV will not produce that pure of water. Also, remember if the water is dangerous to drink alone, even with the best of filtering or RO systems available for use in a RV will not make it 100% safe. There is always a chance of some flow by in any system, so don't trust one of these systems to always produce totally safe water unless the water is already fairly safe to drink. But with that being said, for the best water, a RO system is the best.


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## nynethead (Sep 23, 2005)

I have been using RO water as our sole supply for cooking and eating for more than 10 Years. Use a culligan system which generates the water after beingg put through a water softner. I have a 9 gallon tank in the basement instead of the 3 gallon under sink. I fill 6 gallon drinking water containers for when we go camping and use it for all drinking, coffee and boiling water. drink it just like bottled water, never had any problems whether i drink 10 glasses a day or 1. started using it in my last house when my well got comtaiminated with salt from the old town storgae that was across the street and we had no town water. Have continued to use it because I meter the town water and the TDS varies from 300 to 475 on any given day and the government legal limit is 500. Just want to make sure my family has good clean safe water to drink and cook with.


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