# Big Lug Nut Problems



## campingnut18 (Mar 11, 2004)

took a week long trip down to the beach. pulled into my camp site.
had a flat tire. ok not too bad only a year old camper. things happen.

trouble starts now... i could not for the love of god ,get the lug nuts off.
only after a year the lug nuts are starting to rust.








i did not put the black caps on, didnt like the look.
i put a can of wd40 on it. still nothing.
well long story short, i broke 3 of the 5 off. only 2 came off .
what a pain in the ..... to get off.
the factory put these things on so tight you can only get them off by breaking the lug nuts.
im so thankfull that i was not on the side of the road.

so all you outbackers , please check your lug nuts before you hit the road.

i will change the other 3 wheel studs out next weekend.
campingnut18..


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## Castle Rock Outbackers (Jan 18, 2004)

Sorry, to hear about that. And to think I tighten the lug nuts before every trip we take (dealer suggested I do this for safety). I do keep the black lug nut covers in place, however.

Randy


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

I really doubt it was the Factory more then likely it was the dealer. I had to take one of mine off on the side of the road and it was just a normal amount of torque.

There is a note on the trailer to re torque after the first 25 miles, did you do that last season?


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## hurricaneplumber (Apr 12, 2004)

Make sure to use a torque wrench and check them several times a year.

Should be 90-120 ftlbs torque according to stickers. All of mine are at 100.

You could have had cross threaded lug nuts also, happens when they use the air wrench and just crank them on there.

Kevin


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

The caps are also to keep semi clean and dry. Use a small amount of anti sieze lubricant on all studs when putting lugs on. I use on all my wheels. trucks, cars and trailers. It will keep them from rusting. When you check lugs periodically, the best way is to use a torgue wrench but otherwise just check with common sense, do not try to make tighter every time.


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## Herbicidal (Aug 29, 2003)

Good idea!







We're leaving on a week long trip to Yosemite on the 20th. I'll make sure I can remove all of them ahead of time and re-torque them to spec. with a torque wrench. One of those piece of mind things.


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## kjp1969 (Apr 25, 2004)

I'm really not too concerned with lug nuts working themselves loose- has anyone on the board ever put a wrench to a lug nut and found it loose?

A very little anti-seize is a good thing. Be sure to wire brush the threads and get them nice and clean before you put the nuts back on. A wire brush meant for battery contacts is good for cleaning out the nut threads.

Kevin P.


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

Concerning lug nuts, I have a story to tell too. A week after picking up our new trailer, I again looked at the rusty studs that I saw on the torque check on the way home. I was planning to pull the wheels, one at a time, to adjust the brakes like the Al-Ko book says to do after 200 miles. When I began to remove the lug nuts with my breaker bar, I immediately knew there was a problem. To my dismay, 10 out of 20 lug nuts were so overtightened that they came off with stud thread in the nut, or else the stud broke.







Bear in mind that this was a new TT.

On the way home, I put 100 lb-feet of torque on the lugs and didn't find any of them to be loose. In fact, 100 lb-feet didn't make any of the nuts move either. But what I didn't know was that some were, IMHO, way overtightenend. I make this claim because of the deformation of the lug nut taper. The nuts were pulled into the wheel hole so much that the taper on the nuts instead looked like a step. The wheel holes did not distort. I will be posting pics of the nuts and studs in the gallery (now in there under Modifications).

Anyway, what resulted was that I changed 10 studs and replaced about 12 lug nuts with new parts. This involved all four wheels. I couldn't take the unit to the dealer with half of the lugs/studs messed up. When I called my dealer and asked whether they have been seeing this particular problem, they said no. I thought it was interesting that I was the only person to experience this. But, I was promised that new parts would be sent to me. The next day, Keystone called me-- thinking they were calling the dealer. Phone numbers were confused apparently. So I asked them if Outback dealers are ordering a lot of wheel nuts and studs. I was told no again. By the way, Keystone sent me 20 nuts and 20 studs by Fedex or UPS (who can remember?) the next day.

Having been a mechanic for quite a few years in an earlier incarnation, I believe that the lug nuts were overtightened to cause the distortion to the taper. When this distortion happened, the nut was pinched so hard that the threads compressed and distorted too, effectively making the nut-threads and stud-threads one.

However, I am not too well impressed with the wheels themselves either. I am referring to the very narrow chamfer (tapered area). If you look at the chamfer on the wheels for your car or TV, I bet you will see a much wider area to mate with the tapered nut. I suspect that this narrow chamfer on my Outback wheels is also responsible for the nut distortion and thread seizure. I think that with a wider chamfer, there would be more mating surface area to spread the load and less directed strain on the nut.

What I am now doing is being very fastidious in keeping the wheels torqued at 100 pound-feet. Since I am looking at upgrading my tires to 225R15s, load range D, I will be buying different wheels (hopefully made in the good ol' USA) too. I would appreciate hearing from anyone else that has had a similar experience. Comments, anyone?

Bill


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## campingnut18 (Mar 11, 2004)

cookie thanks, i think the same thing happened to me.
i will be changing all 20 studs and nuts this weekend. dont want to be on the road
and have that happen again.
i will torque the new ones to 100 ft lbs.
the funny thing is, i checked the lug nuts about 6 times the last year.
never ever had a lose lug nut. they were so tight i could not move a single one.

thanks again, campingnut18


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

They tell you to check after the first 200 miles but it has already been driven from the manufacturer to the dealer. I do not check my car lug nuts, why do I have to check the trailer. After proper torquing they should not come loose. I do not check except once if I have any of them off and that is because my wheels are aluminum.


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

kjp1969 said:


> I'm really not too concerned with lug nuts working themselves loose- has anyone on the board ever put a wrench to a lug nut and found it loose?


Yes, not on my Outback but on my Popup and my Hybrid I have. I now check the lug nuts before each trip as well as the tire pressure.


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

I have had lug nuts loosen, but not on the camper. You should re-torque any aluminum wheels periodically. Severeal years ago, after repairing a leak in a tire on the DW's car, she complained to me of a thumping. I took the car out and heard it too. I had her bring my car to work, and I brought hers to the transmission shop, as the sound was speed dependant, and these vehicles had a reputation for eating transaxles at around her mileage.

Two different mechanics at the tranny shop rode and listened, couldn't id the sound, but knew it was'nt the tranny. I then took it to my mechanic. He was busy that, but agreed to listen then, so that I could make an appointment to have the work done. We got in the car and drove around, he couldn't pin it down. Then he had me drive up and down the shops driveway while he walked alongside...had me stop, ran into the shop and brought out a torque wrench, and applied it to the L front wheel. 4 of the 5 lugs had loosened from when I had torqued the wheel back on. My wife had put about 250 miles on the car between my tire repair and the surfacing of the sound.

Never the less, I now recheck torque on any wheels I remove between 100 and 200 miles after I put them back on.

Tim


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

One of the reasons for re checking the torque and maybe one of the reasons for the distorted nuts is the side load applied to the wheels during tight turns. Dual axle trailer wheels that are close together can suffer from this.

Watch your wheels scuff when you make a tight turn, it can be scary if you have not seen it before. It can stretch the studs and deform the nuts and wheel holes. This can result in loose nuts.

This brings up my next point. When you back into a tight camp pad, once you get the TV straight you should pull forward some, then back up to where you want to be this will release the side load on your tires.


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

Camper Andy,

I can't buy the theory that tight turns/side loads on tires would drive the wheels into the lug nuts so severely that the nuts would be stepped instead of tapered. With all due respect, I believe that the nuts were overtightened by either Keystone or the dealer. As I said, I applied 100 lb-feet of torque on the way home which didn't move the nuts but at least I was assured none of them were loose. And if Keystone or the dealer didn't exceed the recommended torque, then the nuts distorted due to the very narrow nut-to-wheel contact resulting from the shallow chamfer on the stock wheels.

Either way, this isn't what I reasonably expected in a new trailer with 200 miles on it, with maybe only a handful of low-speed sharp turns made to that point. Also, I'm not sure but I expect that the Outbacks get to the dealers on the back of a delivery trailer, so they don't suffer wheel wear-and-tear before we buy them.

Bill


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

In 30 years of trucks with old style lugs and new style bud wheels, I have never seen lug wear from turning. The only way I have seen the type of damage those pics show are from a overzelous person with a air wrench in his hands. My son has a gun that would do it, snug with gun tighten by hand.

Relieving the stress on the tires and suspension is not a bad thing to do while parked.


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

Bill the trailers are pulled, unless they are very short. I figured they came out on rail cars.. not. So by the time you get it its had several hundred miles on it already.

I think CamperAndy is right, but in your case I don't think it would have caused your particular problem. In my case with triple axles I can see the stress when I take a sharp turn or U-turn, thus why I've check them each trip. But I think human error from the dealer or Keystone was the problem, not tire force.

Have you spoken with your dealer about the problem? What if anything are they doing to take care of you?


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

Steve,

What I got was 20 new studs and 20 new nuts. Assume if I took the TT to the dealer, they would have made the repair. But with 10 out of 20 studs messed up, I couldn't very well get it to them.

So I pulled the hubs/drums and changed the studs in my driveway. The drawback was the time it took and accompanying grief. The benefit for me is that I know the job was done right.

The issue now is my distrust of the stock parts, particularly the wheels. Since the tires are carrying such a large percentage of their maximum capacity, I plan on upgrading them to 15-inch, load range D. I will make sure that I like the looks of whatever new wheels I get.

Bill


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

Bill I think that I would call or drop by the dealer, take your parts bill and talk to them about the problem. This was a fault from their/keystone's end and I think you can get something for your problem, maybe even an "atta boy" but do let them know.


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

I agree with Y guy. If you were not mechanically capable, they would have had to deal with it in your driveway.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

cookie9933 said:


> Camper Andy,
> 
> I can't buy the theory that tight turns/side loads on tires would drive the wheels into the lug nuts so severely that the nuts would be stepped instead of tapered.Â With all due respect, I believe that the nuts were overtightened by either Keystone or the dealer.Â As I said, I applied 100 lb-feet of torque on the way home which didn't move the nuts but at least I was assured none of them were loose.Â And if Keystone or the dealer didn't exceed the recommended torque, then the nuts distorted due to the very narrow nut-to-wheel contact resulting from the shallow chamfer on the stock wheels.Â
> 
> ...


Bill - I did say MAYBE so I guess you take it or leave it. The point is valid, you know how those studs are installed. What if they were not seated? After the first couple of turns I bet the nuts would be loose. Also I agree that the MOST likely cause is a over zealous dealer tech with a 250 pound 1/2" drive air gun.

Most trailers are pulled to the dealer not shipped. Some may use dedicated tires for transporting the trailer but many come with the end user tires installed.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

I looked at the photos of the nuts and feel that they were not tempered correctly. This could have been a bad batch of nuts. Not the best answer but the wheel steel should be softer then the nuts. Maybe everyone should pull a couple of them off to check.


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

Note: I did not start this thread, but thanks to all who responded to my post for your interest and comments. I posted because I think wheel studs/nuts are important and because everyone wants these particular pieces of their trailer to be dependable if torque is checked and adjusted as prescribed in the owner's documents. We see concern for things like water leaks and black tank operation, but I would rather experience that type of thing than to have stripped wheel studs when I am on the road in the middle of nowhere with a flat tire.

It would be hoped that my stud/nut experience is unusual and rare, so that other owners can change their tires if necessary in the middle of nowhere and be on their way. I only wanted to make others aware of a potential, even if remote. End of this thread for me.

Bill


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Bill - I hope you are not stopping making comments due to anything I said. This has been a good thread no matter who started it. Your experience is very valuable. If any of the comments made here prevent a problem for a forum member in the future then all the discussion was worth it.

As I am sure you know a consensus can not be achieved without discussion and sometime discussion can be trying but when it does lead to a consensus. Everyone will be better for it.

So if you seen anything on this thread or any other where you feel you want to make a comment, Please do. In the end we all will be better off for the input that everyone makes.

Okay I'll climb off my soap box.


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

Camper Andy,

No, not due to anything that anybody said. It's that I made the all the pertinent points I thought necessary. My purpose was to make others aware, to maybe save them from a broken-down trailer where unscheduled repairs may be very difficult.

I have repaired my share of wheel studs for myself and others over the years and when I had to change my TT studs several weeks ago I was initially at a loss for a good explanation. To correct a problem is half of the battle...to prevent a reoccurence is even more important. Understanding why the first failure occurred can lead to avoiding it a second time. Certainly, some speculation was done but I did draw on experience in similar situations. And maybe your speculation of improper heat treatment of nuts (too soft) is the answer. The local auto parts store now fills its lug nut bins with nuts from China. I saw the boxes. Wonder where Keystone's lug nuts come from?

As far as achieving anything like a consensus, it doesn't need to happen here since we aren't charged with solving this problem, like if we worked at Keystone and were assigned that task. Anyone interested will make whatever use of this thread they choose, be it opinion or fact.

Bill


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

The whole thread has added the loosening, and then retorquing of the trailer lugs part of my checklist now. Thanks to all who have contributed. Regardless of the cause of said failure, the important thing is to check it before we leave, to prevent having to have the TT towed somewhere on a dolly when out on the road.

Tim


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## NDJollyMon (Aug 22, 2003)

Leave your nuts alone and get GOOD SAM RV Emergency Road Service!

Kidding! Check your nuts! Good threads like this will save someone headaches later.


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## campingnut18 (Mar 11, 2004)

some update on my stud/nut problems.

im with cookie , if this helps just one person from being stranded on the road side
then my job is done.
i have been to about 12 auto part stores/trailer places and even camper places.
and with no luck found any replacement parts .
i have a call into the dealer about having keystone send me new ones.
but we cant find the correct ones.

i was so thankful that i had just backed in to my camp site and not on the road.








thanks, campingnut18


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

Have you tried the axle manufacturer? On my 2004 26RS, that is AL-KO, and the paperwork should be in with all your appliance manuals. I don't think they sell to the public, but they should be able to point you in the direction of a distributor near you.

Tim


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

CampingNut,

Keystone has the studs somewhere in their vast domain, because they sent 20 of them to me plus 20 nuts. They were the same exact ones that came with the Al-Ko axles. 
I too went to several auto parts and tied to match up with the originals. The specs for the studs are 1/2"-20 X 2" X .545" X (about).720" This means 1/2-inch thread, 20 threads per inch, 2 inches long, .545-inch diameter knurl, 0.72-inch diameter head. I am not sure about the stud head diameter, but that is close if not exact. I did find a stud with a somewhat larger head diameter which I turned down to fit, but did not end up using them because I found the correct studs on a dealer's shelf. General RV in Waterford, Michigan. I installed those and the next day Keystone's UPS delivery was at my door.

Keep us informed.

Bill


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## campingnut18 (Mar 11, 2004)

thanks hatcity and cookie, thats some good info i did not have.
i will print this out.
i did find a trailer manufacture in alabama that will order them for me .
now i can give him a call that i have this info.

thank, guys.. action


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## campingnut18 (Mar 11, 2004)

ok i wanted to update on what info i found out....
keystoned.. said it was al-ko who mad the axle and should fix it.
al-ko said keystone put the wheels on too tight and they should fix it.























so im back in the same hole.
but chris at al-ko--- did hook me up the maker of the studs and nuts.
a place called axle inc . they will be sending me a new set of 20 this week.
i will make all the repairs myself. cost was $25.00 plus shipping.
not too bad..

he did tell me that they recomend that you DO NOT PUT GREASE ON 
the lug nuts. it will take the finish off and they will start to rust.
just spray with wd40 ever so often and keep clean.
im not sure what the difference would be on that one..
and on my axle only torque to 90 ft lbs max.

thanks, campingnut18


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

Agree, do not use grease on lug nuts. I use a Anti-sieze compound made for that purpose, it will not harm anything. Get it at any Auto Parts store.

john


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## dwest369 (Feb 2, 2004)

Hi Everyone

Thanks for all the helpful information. Campingnut18, do you have the address, phone number and part numbers. I am interested for further use.

Thanks

Don


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## campingnut18 (Mar 11, 2004)

i do have it but it's at home today.
the company was axle inc .
i will post that tomorrow if i dont forget.

it was only around $25.00 for a set of 20.
i guess that not a bad idea to have them around.

thanks,


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## 76 cougar (Jan 30, 2005)

Checked all mine they were all right at 100 lbs. Maybe its the dealers hitting them with an impac when prepping to go off the lot.


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