# Fiberglass Is Cracked*update Fixed* See Post #102



## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

So the fiberglass is cracked where the front cap meets the side of the trailer. In addition, there is a dip in the roof and evidently water collects there and has molded the roof. The dealer contacted Keystone and they said no to covering it. The trailer is an 05 but a leftover model we bought in 06, we have used it about 8 times total only because Rick was out of commission all last summer with his leg injury.
The dealer told me to contact Keystone myself and typically they'll come through. Where do I start? 
Here is the crack:


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

The crack is interesting in its location as there is little stress there. I would pull the corner trim and see what is going on.

As for the mold, just wash it off with a little bleach, any spots that puddle can be filled with Dicor self leveling caulk if it really is a problem, otherwise just wash it and keep an eye on it.

As for Keystone stepping up, I don't think you will have much luck but good luck anyway. You need to contact team Challenger for tech support on the Outbacks.


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## jasonrebecca (Oct 30, 2007)

My TT is showing signs of a scew starting to push through in the same area.
Any contact infor for Team Challanger would be great!


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

jasonrebecca said:


> My TT is showing signs of a scew starting to push through in the same area.
> Any contact infor for Team Challanger would be great!


I'll keep you posted


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## garyb1st (Dec 6, 2007)

CamperAndy said:


> The crack is interesting in its location as there is little stress there. I would pull the corner trim and see what is going on.
> 
> As for the mold, just wash it off with a little bleach, any spots that puddle can be filled with Dicor self leveling caulk if it really is a problem, otherwise just wash it and keep an eye on it.
> 
> As for Keystone stepping up, I don't think you will have much luck but good luck anyway. You need to contact team Challenger for tech support on the Outbacks.


Good point on the mold. I was thinking the mold is a serious problem but didn't consider the structure of the Outback. On a wood frame trailer, it could be an expensive repair.

Likely out of warranty but if it's a workmanship issue, Keystone should step up to the problem.


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

CamperAndy said:


> The crack is interesting in its location as there is little stress there. I would pull the corner trim and see what is going on.
> 
> As for the mold, just wash it off with a little bleach, any spots that puddle can be filled with Dicor self leveling caulk if it really is a problem, otherwise just wash it and keep an eye on it.
> 
> As for Keystone stepping up, I don't think you will have much luck but good luck anyway. You need to contact team Challenger for tech support on the Outbacks.


maybe not the brightest crayon in the box but I looked on Keystone site and didn't see "team challenger", am I not looking in the right place?


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

got home from PNW Fall RAlly and the crack has traveled and now pieces of fiberglass are falling out







. Have put call into my insurance to see what they say....


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

the insurance company says it's a manufacture defect. We took it to the local fiberglass guy and he concluded the fiberglass was cut too short for the trailer ( I put info in the Leavenworth Oktoberfest thread) . He said for now to caulk the heck out of the crack and hole so we can use it for our next short trip.

Rick noticed today that not just the fiberglass was cut too short, it appears the plywood was too, as you can see the edge of the plywood if you look real close. The screws and molding didn't have anything to be attatched to firmly
HOW can Keystone not be willing to help with this? Our crime is we didn't use it enough times before it went out of warranty so it would fall apart within the warranty period. If Rick hadn't gotten injured last year and we could have it more, it would have fell apart sooner. Man, I am so frustrated.


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## Sayonara (Jul 23, 2007)

I sure hope they help you out on this.


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## jetjane (Feb 8, 2007)

Will your insurance company go after Keystone then since it was a manufacturer's defect?


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## SmkSignals (May 2, 2005)

Wow. I am keeping an eye on this thread. Come on Keystone... DO THE RIGHT THING !!!


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

jetjane said:


> Will your insurance company go after Keystone then since it was a manufacturer's defect?


No, my insurance won't cover it so they would have no reason to go after them.


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

SmkSignals said:


> Wow. I am keeping an eye on this thread. Come on Keystone... DO THE RIGHT THING !!!


Keystone has already told me to basically pound sand, too bad, tough luck...you get the picture. That was a phone conversation last week. I recently sent them the photos I took ( but not the one from today where you can also see the plywood). They did not respond.

If I did a letter to Keystone, do would any Outbackers "Outbacker Me Up" ? Numbers speak. I am so frustrated that here we sit with this situation and had Rick not been hurt last year and we had camped more, it would have happened sooner but since Rick was busy serving and protecting and getting hurt in the process, the trailer didn't start falling apart in a timely manner that would have then been covered. I wonder what my blood pressure is at this very minute


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

I'm here for you Doxie...
What can I do to help???


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

skippershe said:


> I'm here for you Doxie...
> What can I do to help???


Hi Dawn









If I can't get Keystone to listen to me again, I may need reinforcements!


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## Dadof4 (Mar 30, 2007)

C'mon Keystone! Doxie has been one of your most loyal customers and supports your products through her numerous possitive posts! Do a web search! I typed doxie and outback into google... right at the top was a post about how pleased she was with her husbands latest modification on the Outback. Her posts are what helped me ultimatly decide to purchase an Outback for my family.

KEYSTONE.... STEP UP TO THE PLATE!!!!


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## SmkSignals (May 2, 2005)

Doxie-Doglover-Too said:


> If I did a letter to Keystone, will any Outbackers "Outbacker Me Up" ? Numbers speak.


Heck ya !!! I consider Outbackers .com a pretty high profile site for one brand of trailer from a single manufacture. Anytime someone is asking about an Outback on any other site, the responses are always ' Go check Outbackers .com ' With the 4000 plus members here, the numbers will hopefully work in your favor !!

Keystone, we are watching for a resolution !!!


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

Last week I emailed Keystone in my effort to reach someone who move this situation to a different level. 
I had assumed since I hadn't heard anything that I was being ignored. Today I received a call from Mike at Keystone. Throughout the conversation I was reminded that I am 15 months out of warranty. Had it been up to 6 months out of warranty they could possibly give a courtesy exception. I reminded him that had Rick not been injured last year and out of commission for so many months, the trailer would have come apart last year while being used and within the courtesy time frame. They don't seem to much care about that and I don't care much for the fact that I have their product falling apart.

So, he said he is going to contact his Master Certified Tech and show him the pictures and talk to him about it. I am going to get a copy of the estimate to fix it from my insurance and send it to him. I am asking Keyston to at the least, absorb half the cost of the repair. Stay Tuned..................


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

Doxie,

The minute your trailer came off the production line, it was inevitable that this was going to happen. It has been established that your Outback is coming apart because it was improperly manufactured in the first place! I do not see where Keystone has any arguement that this is simply an expired warranty issue.

Hold your ground and hold Keystone responsible...I don't think that they should get any slack, such as only having to pay half of the repairs to take care of THEIR NEGLIGENCE!!

I want Mike's phone number


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

skippershe said:


> Doxie,
> 
> The minute your trailer came off the production line, it was inevitable that this was going to happen. It has been established that your Outback is coming apart because it was improperly manufactured in the first place! I do not see where Keystone has any arguement that this is simply an expired warranty issue.
> 
> ...


***-***-**** ( removed name and number until further notice, see post #35)

he was trying to indicate that since our roof needs maintenance, and it does and we have the supplies, that maybe water leaked into the trailer and that's what happened. Nope, didn't happen. There is zero signs anywhere in the entire trailer that water has ever entered in any way . Heck , we haven't even had a slide leak. Knock on fiberglass.
BTW-the mold on the roof is cuz there is a dip in the roof....also not something I could have caused since I didn't put the trailer together....I wasn't invited to that party.


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## Dadof4 (Mar 30, 2007)

Hi Doxie,
My wife and I are toying with the idea of upgrading to a 5-er. I'm watching this thread VERY closely.


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

I tried to contact Mike this afternoon, but never got him on the phone. I spoke with Carmen (I think she's in the same dept) and told her that I was calling in support of Doxie's situation, hoping that Keystone is going to take care of her.

I was told basically the same thing that was explained to Doxie. I voiced my opinion about having a false sense of security with them...I guess it's wrong to assume that even though members of our group were given a factory tour, that does not entitle us to anything more than just that.

I directed Carmen to this thread so she herself could see the photos of Doxie's Outback. I am hoping that Mike himself is drawn here as well.

Come on Keystone...do the right thing


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## mountainlady56 (Feb 13, 2006)

Doxie,
These are the customer service #s listed on the keystone RV site.
(574) 534-9430 (Local)
(866) 425-4369 (Toll Free) (I used this #, I think, to save my dime.)
As for the water puddling on top? My 07 31RQS did the same thing, and they tore the thing apart (at my request) making sure there wasn't a leak, as it was puddling right on the seam where the front end curves down, and there was a small discolored area along a piece of molding.
From the pic you posted, I would definitely fight them on this. Take down names, dates, content of conversation. That's the only way I got anywhere with the problem with the leak machine (my 06 27RSDS).
BTW, I may not still be with a TT, but I'm toying with the idea, since I had an 03 Toyota Tundra "fall in my lap" so to speak, but, I'll always be an OBer at heart, and hope you guys don't mind me hanging around. 
Oh, BTW, roof has a 10 yr. mfr. warranty (sounds like it's sagging). What about the warranty on the siding? How long is it?
Best of luck and hugs!








Darlene


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## cabullydogs (Jul 12, 2008)

We have your back on this one!

Perhaps you could advise Keystone that you plan to paint a large lemon on all sides of your trailer. My dad wanted to do this to a car he once owned that suffered catastrophic engine failure and the dealer would not warranty the repair.

Seriously, in this economy, you would figure that companies would want to extend every opportunity to keep their customer base. Unless, of course, that Keystone forsees financial doom in the near future for themselves.

In any case, this sucks! Sorry


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

thank you all for your support, it means a lot! Keystone has the pics the dealer sent them as well as the pics I sent them.

If Keystone would simply step up and do the right thing, imagine the kudos they would get from how many thousands of members does this site have? and , uh, we all have how many friends and family? word of mouth speaks for itself Keystone! c'mon! don't leave me holding the financial burden because Gilligan didn't know how to run the machines cutting the products to build my trailer or another Gilligan on the assemly line was reading the *consumer complaint section in the rv magazines *instead of paying attention to what he was doing.

If I don't winterize my trailer I am to blame for the consequences, and I accept that. But how can I be held responsible for the wall of trailer being too short? how long before the other side does the same thing? Why is there a dip in the roof?

I have already gone thru 2 sets of tires in a 2 year span due to dry rot. My furnace has never worked properly ( won't shut off properly) yet the dealer says it's fine. The black tank gauge reads half to ¾ full all the time no matter how long or well we rinse.


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## Scoutr2 (Aug 21, 2006)

I'm with you, Doxie. This problem was created at the factory due to poor workmanship. There is nothing wrong with the fiberglass, just the workmanship used to put it together. Keystone has just put a big ***** in their image, as far as I'm concerned. And your dealer doesn't seem to be doing anything except taking NO for an answer.

It is quite obvious from the photos that the factory used the trim piece to cover the defect, figuring that it would last at least until the warranty expired. It is also obvious that water from a leaky roof did not contribute to this problem. I see no evidence of water damage. (And any water damage that created this, would definately have created even more damage inside the trailer, and delaminating, too.) I hope that Keystone doesn't think that collectively, we are all that stupid.

Here's the first thing I'd do - file a complaint here: NHTSA Office of Defects and Recalls. That will put your problem out there for all the world to see. After that, I'd see what Keystone is willing to do, and if they are still dragging their feet, a good lawyer might wake them up to see the light. It's time that companies return to the days when a customer was a valued commodity.

I may just look harder at Jaycos or Fleetwoods the next time around!

Mike


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

thanks again for the continued support all you KEYSTONE owners!








OUTBACKERING each other up!









For the record, the dealer that does my repairs and or warranty work is not who we purchased our Outback from, we got it from Lakeshore. Chief's RV here has been wonderful to us each and every time we have taken our trailer to them







But if Keystone tells them no on something, I wouldn't think they could get Keystone to budge. I am not sure how that all works,but I did want to say the Chief's has been a great service center for us.

Now, back to the issue with KEYSTONE...KEYSTONE, ARE YOU READING THIS?







It sure would be nice to post to this forum that you came thru and took care of this situation.


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

It is quite obvious from the photos that the factory used the trim piece to cover the defect, [/quote]

Hmmm...interesting Mike, that's EXACTLY what the man that owns the fiberglass company said when we took the Outback over to him.


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## 2dayinc (Jul 2, 2008)

Keystone needs to step up for sure. That's a craftsman defect. That shows that the quality policy they have in place isn't working. There needs to be a corrective action on this issue. It looks to be a major repair or should I say replacement? We just bought a 2009 23KRS. I will be watching this area of the TT very closely. Shame on Keystone for not standing behind the product they produce. Which makes me nervous now.


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Another Vote For Doxie!









Come on Keystone, step up on this one! We are light hearted on the typical gilligan stuff, but this needs correcting!!!


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

Mike left me a voice message to return his call...I did...and left him a voice message....stand by for further news from Un-Happy Keystone Ouback owner land when he returns my call


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## OutbackPM (Sep 14, 2005)

At some point it would seem worth asking a lawyer to write a letter to Keystone regarding the obvious manufacturing flour that was made. What does warrenty have to do with incorrect manufacture? Legalities are not the same as engineering sense or even common sense but I have had success in the past having a lawyer draft a letter stating your position. It shows you mean business so here's your chance to minimize your overall cost.

I am sure our Outbackers Legal Counceler (Ghosty) will chime in with a good legal position for you.

Best of luck 
(keeps this bumped to the top so alot of people see it)


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

Keystone says that their manufacturers warranty is only good for 1 year. I could totally understand getting on with your life if there was some kind of minor defect, but not when the whole side of your trailer is cracking apart


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## SmkSignals (May 2, 2005)

I hope Keystone gets this resolved for you Doxie.

I usually hit RV.NET 5-6 times a week and surf the travel trailer section. I always respond to questions to potential Outback owners about my trailer experience (and mention Outbackers.com of course). My reviews on my 21 RS have always been positive, and will continue to be unless something goes wrong. My trailer has been great.

But going forward I will also add a link to this exact thread so the potential owner can see exactly how Keystone's customer service operates. This thread will either have a happy ending, which we all hope for, or a disappointing ending, which we hope not.

Either way, the potential new Outback and/or Keystone owner will be able to make a decision on their own regarding Keystone's customer service practices. We hope they come through with flying colors !!!

- Kurt T.


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

UPDATE:

Mike called me back and said they are offering to put on "Long Legged Moulding" but he could not tell me what Long Legged Moulding is or how or why it would solve the problem. I told him is service dept could call me directly and explain it but he declined and said we are to take it to the dealer and the dealer will have *dialogue* with Keystone. I asked if Long Legged Moulding was simply covering the damage done or would fiberglass repair be included and he said he didn't know exactly what his service dept was considering. I told Mike to simply put on (what I think is wider moulding) , if it's just covering the damage, it's not acceptable. In addition, I would assume that while they are addressing the current damage/fix, they will inspect the whole edge and I would assume the other side as well, if one side was cut short, is it reasonable to question, perhaps the other side was too?

I asked why Keystone was not having us take to the fiberglass guy and he said they are not set up to pay them, and to take it to the dealer. I called the dealer and he said it may be a sublet type of situation ( if that's the right word). So for now, we have Keystone stepping up to step one, access the situation. Step 2, the most crucial, will be Keystone offering solution/repair that is appropriate.

I called the dealer and arranged to take it in on Oct 15th, after our short trip to Leavenworth. I made it clear that I want to be included in the *dialogue *and that no repair be performed unless I know exactly what it is they are doing, I am not trying to difficult but a bandaid repair would not be fixing it.

Thank you everyone for Outbackering me up and I'll keep you posted when we take it in on the 15th.


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## cabullydogs (Jul 12, 2008)

Long-legged moulding sounds like a Band-Aid to me, and unacceptable. When it goes to the dealer for inspection, have them measure the length of the panel and ask for Keystone's specs as to what the panel should measure (they probably won't share, but you need to pressure them from every possible angle).

We joined the Good Sam Club via Camping World for $5 recently. Their publication has a section called "Action Line" and perhaps you have read it before. I would write in to the magazine, c/o Robin Duffield, and share your story. Here is the contact for easy reference:

[email protected]

or

Action Line
P.O. Box 8545
Ventura, CA 93002

Good luck!


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

cabullydogs said:


> Long-legged moulding sounds like a Band-Aid to me, and unacceptable. When it goes to the dealer for inspection, have them measure the length of the panel and ask for Keystone's specs as to what the panel should measure (they probably won't share, but you need to pressure them from every possible angle).
> 
> We joined the Good Sam Club via Camping World for $5 recently. Their publication has a section called "Action Line" and perhaps you have read it before. I would write in to the magazine, c/o Robin Duffield, and share your story. Here is the contact for easy reference:
> 
> ...


thanks for the input! I have a couple of places lined up for sharing my story, but I am going to give Keystone the opportunity to right a wrong. I want to believe they are listening and that they care about the quality and performance of their product.

That something can go wrong at the time of manufacture is the margin of error that is human, to step up and make it right for the consumer is their opportunity to prove they care. Product performance and reliabilty speak loudly and so does word of mouth.

I am thrilled with the Outbacker support, it is the only thing right now easing my fear about my trailer. To have so many thousands invested in my little piece of heaven I call the Outback Inn, and for it to have such an issue after only a few uses, is heart breaking.


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

One more thing: Keystone, at the time of this current posting that I am doing right now, this thread has been read 719 times. Many Keystone owners and undoubetdly potential owners are following this thread. C'mon, Keystone, don't let me ( us) down.


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## Path4ground (Sep 14, 2008)

We finally have our walk through tomorrow in our 210RS. I will be inspecting that area VERY CLOSELY before giving up the check!!
I am sorry for the trouble that you are having, and I hope Keystone helps (as they should!) but thanks for the info for us potential buyers Doxie!!!


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## N7OQ (Jun 10, 2006)

Yeah Keystone do the right think and then we all will have faith with you again. This is a obvious manufacturing defect!


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Guys, I think that there may need to be a different point of view here. Here are a few things.

1 - Moulding to cover up a non structural crack is not a bad plan of action. 
2 - Any action this far past warranty should be seen as good faith irrespective of the source if the fault or the reason why it was not found earlier.
3 - Someone wants to link to this thread, fine but take the time to also link to the hundreds of "We love our Outback" threads.
4 - The use of any "Action Line" public bashing to get something fixed past warranty should not be done. I hate extended warranties but if you buy something and you feel it should be covered longer then the warranty provided it is your obligation to buy an extended warranty.

Now I know most of you will think I am a cold hearted SOB (use the other meaning) but these type of things happen. This is a one off event as there has not been one other post on this site about this kind of problem so I just don't understand the attitude that it it all Keystones fault and this one event will mean that Keystone is unacceptable.

Doxie you have a more legitimate complaint with the furnace then this crack. As it was identified during the warranty period but still not corrected to your satisfaction. Send that to the action line people but you should deal with the crack yourself or just accept any offers for help by Keystone. Sorry.


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## Rip (Jul 13, 2006)

CamperAndy said:


> Guys, I think that there may need to be a different point of view here. Here are a few things.
> 
> 1 - Moulding to cover up a non structural crack is not a bad plan of action.
> 2 - Any action this far past warranty should be seen as good faith irrespective of the source if the fault or the reason why it was not found earlier.
> ...


 Well Said X2


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

CamperAndy said:


> 4 - I hate extended warranties but if you buy something and you feel it should be covered longer then the warranty provided it is your obligation to buy an extended warranty.


Doxie told me over the phone yesterday that they* did purchase *an extended warranty!


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

skippershe said:


> 4 - I hate extended warranties but if you buy something and you feel it should be covered longer then the warranty provided it is your obligation to buy an extended warranty.


Doxie told me over the phone yesterday that they* did purchase *an extended warranty!

[/quote]

yep, sure did, and it doesn't cover an obvious factory defect. I respect your opinion Andy, but I feel strongly about this. Thousands of dollars to fulfill the dream of owning a travel trailer and it has this type of issue after a few uses, it makes my heart ache.


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## Sayonara (Jul 23, 2007)

CamperAndy said:


> Guys, I think that there may need to be a different point of view here. Here are a few things.
> 
> 1 - Moulding to cover up a non structural crack is not a bad plan of action.
> 2 - Any action this far past warranty should be seen as good faith irrespective of the source if the fault or the reason why it was not found earlier.
> ...


Id have to agree with CamperAndy on these 4 points. 
NOW, that doesnt mean i dont want Keystone to fix this for you. It would be great if they do.
I luv ya Doxie







and really hope they come through for you the best they can!!


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

I appreciate support and respect all opinions









The core of why I feel so strongly about this is the amount of times we have used this trailer. Although it is a 2005, it was a leftover model we got in 2006. 
To spend several thousand dollars to have a product that serves as my home away from home and have this type of issue after only a few trips is my driving force. The consumer should be able to expect this product to not have this type of flaw. This flaw is apparently not widespread ( that we know of), and it is a factory defect for whatever reason. 
We, the consumer cannot be at the factory to supervise the product being assembled and therefore can't control the outcome. 
Many products are recalled do to flaws, defects, safety concerns, etc. IF suddenly Keystone were inundated with owners calling to say this is happening to their trailer, they would be forced to stand up and address it. Again, who knows how many this happened to, all of you know of mine because of this forum. 
If I am the only Outbackers forum member who is experiencing this problem, that's great!


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## roo camper (Sep 17, 2008)

I have just bought my first outback or camper for that matter and since I have had a chance to use it several times I have found that my family enjoys camping very much, having said that I can see us out growing our present camper in a couple of years and upgrading. After reading your problem with your outback and the factory’s response I am going to look around very carefully before buying another outback. True that one lemon does not make them all bad but all the more reason for the factory to step up and eat this one. This seams a major flaw and needs to be repaired correctly for the factory to save face with new and repeat customers. Good luck with your repair. And add me to the number of people watching to see the outcome.


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

Keystone says its not a factory defect and the extended warranty co says it is. Being stuck in the middle has to be frustrating. Given the time line, I think the beef is with the extended warranty co to fix it or prove its a defect.


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

tdvffjohn said:


> Keystone says its not a factory defect and the extended warranty co says it is. Being stuck in the middle has to be frustrating. Given the time line, I think the beef is with the extended warranty co to fix it or prove its a defect.


Keystone hasn't denied it's a factory defect


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

roo camper said:


> I have just bought my first outback or camper for that matter and since I have had a chance to use it several times I have found that my family enjoys camping very much, having said that I can see us out growing our present camper in a couple of years and upgrading. After reading your problem with your outback and the factory's response I am going to look around very carefully before buying another outback. True that one lemon does not make them all bad but all the more reason for the factory to step up and eat this one. This seams a major flaw and needs to be repaired correctly for the factory to save face with new and repeat customers. Good luck with your repair. And add me to the number of people watching to see the outcome.


Thank you for your response. I believe Keystone makes great products but that I ended up with one that Gilligan put together. No manufacturer will turn out a perfect 100% problem free unit. The structural quality needs to exist in order to house any other issues inside







. 
Simply put, I can't accept my trailer having this type of flaw with limited useage. If we were dry campers and went over bumpy roads to get to the secluded spots and had put this unit to the test, perhaps I would feel somewhat differently.
Thanks again


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## Y Guy's Wife (Jul 28, 2004)

Rip said:


> Guys, I think that there may need to be a different point of view here. Here are a few things.
> 
> 1 - Moulding to cover up a non structural crack is not a bad plan of action.
> 2 - Any action this far past warranty should be seen as good faith irrespective of the source if the fault or the reason why it was not found earlier.
> ...


 Well Said X2
[/quote]

Well Said X3


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

I refuse to side with Keystone on this.

I work in sales and the real part of the job is pleasing the customer so you get return sales. JUST THAT SIMPLE!!!!!!!!!! I do good faith sales all the time and what I get out of it is 5 times more sales then what the problem would have cost me. It even hurts sometimes doing it but patience shows me it works out for me in the long run.

The only thing that could come of Keystone not stepping up here is a black eye. What does it take for them to fix it?

This may be over the top but in these troubled economic times I would hope that AMERICANS could come together and tell these companies to shape up or ship out. We have had enough of your nickel and dime BS. Thor industries stock was over $50 a year ago now it is $22. Go ahead continue to take more of a beating.

Now here this Keystone the reason I wouldn't consider buying any of your 5'ers is because I saw all the de-lams on your trailers and the 5'er have the same design under even higher stress! Need any more proof?

Finally Doxie this wouldn't be the way to achive what you want. Before writing a post you call them up and tell them exactly what you want. If they can't do it then blast them.


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## Eagleeyes (Aug 1, 2007)

Sounds like its time for a lawyer....
Bob


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

I've read this thread for some time and never commented... but here I go.

Reality is that if you are going to rule out buying a Keystone product because of this or the delam issues then you pretty much need to get out of RVing completely. Every major manufacturer Thor/Keystone, Fleetwood, Forest River you name it has had delam issues and other problems like what Doxie is dealing with. Fleetwood earned a horrible reputation in the PopUp owners circles for abandoning owners with bad roofs and did the same when they had major delam issues with their Gearbox line. Some other manufacturers stepped up to some degree, but I don't think I've ever read about 100% satisfaction when these problems arise.

I really feel for what Doxie is going through here, but for a moment lets consider Keystone's side of things. They sell a trailer with a 1 year warranty like most other manufacturers, that warranty is a liability for them. They have no control over who buys the RV or how it is used, or in Doxie's case not used. The warranty time passes not by a few months but by 15 months. So this 2005 trailer has been owned for 27 months, and an unknown amount of time on the dealers lot. It develops a problem after all this time and everyone expects their 1 year warranty to now become a 3-4-5 warranty?

Now the insurance company comes along and claims "manufacture defect" and refuses to cover it and everyone blames Keystone? How about the insurance company stepping up to the plate for a change. She's bought the policy and paid for it. If they want to deny it then I say prove it was a true manufacturers defect and that it doesn't happen in other cases? The reality is that defect didn't crack while it was delivered by Lakeshore which was a pretty long haul. I think the blame really needs to be going to the insurance company for not taking care of her in this case and finding any excuse they can to deny coverage.

Speaking of dealers, where is the dealer in all of this? Lakeshore sure has sold a lot of Outbacks on this forum, I would think they should be stepping up to the plate to go to bat as well. They had this trailer for a long time, who's to say they didn't know of the defect. Maybe it was discovered when another buyer found something during a PDI? I've developed a decent relationship with my dealership and when I've had problems they went to bat for me. After hearing all the praise for Marci on here I'd like to hear that she is helping out now when the chips are down and not just when the sale is made.

Sorry if it sounds like a bit of a rant, but before we all jump on Keystone lets consider some of the other players here.

Exit stage left...


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## Eagleeyes (Aug 1, 2007)

I basically agree. But perhaps Doxie and family needs some help to get SOMEONE to step up to the plate...and that's my point.
Bob


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

Y-Guy said:


> I've read this thread for some time and never commented... but here I go.
> 
> Reality is that if you are going to rule out buying a Keystone product because of this or the delam issues then you pretty much need to get out of RVing completely. Every major manufacturer Thor/Keystone, Fleetwood, Forest River you name it has had delam issues and other problems like what Doxie is dealing with. Fleetwood earned a horrible reputation in the PopUp owners circles for abandoning owners with bad roofs and did the same when they had major delam issues with their Gearbox line. Some other manufacturers stepped up to some degree, but I don't think I've ever read about 100% satisfaction when these problems arise.
> 
> ...


I did call Marci about the extended warranty, didn't go into detail with her, she put mr through to someone else and they never returned my call. Then my insurance said no because it's manufacturer defect. Reading thru my ex warranty, it doesn't appear this type of problem is covered anyway.
I appreciate and respect all opinions and thoughts and obviousely not all feel the same on this issue. For myself, I have taken the route I feel is correct and justified. When the repair shop said he's seen this before and what causes it, it was then I chose give Keystone a chance to help. 
When the time comes for repair, we'll then know if for sure it is manufacturer defect. If I used my trailer 12 times or 50 times, a 1,000 miles or 10,000....this shouldn't have happened. These are units are suppose to be built to withstand typical use. Typical is a loose word, but I can say, we are gentle users! How many of you have traveled into and out of remote areas and really USED your trailers and don't have it coming apart?


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## NJMikeC (Mar 29, 2006)

You guys just don't get it.

This isn't about dollars and cents it is about pleasing the customer. Extended warranty's, time sitting on lot, Is it sunny or rainy, just don't matter. Please the customer or keep him angry. Get enough angry and your done.

I have witnessed that Keystone does an admirable job standing behind the de-lam. Good for them. Now stand by this or likely loose the good faith that the previous good service had provided. If our customer gets mad, even the creepiest little dweeb then my boss says, FIX IT. No talk, no explanations FIX IT. I have seen many careers de-railed for refusing to do the right thing just like in this case. Bet if they fix it then maybe they keep Doxie as a customer. Bet if they don't then she is gone and others right behind her.


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

Actually we all do 'get it'

Y guy's post is just as much about reality as yours. Many of the other posts are too. One other reality is the way sales are right now, Keystone maybe has decided they cannot afford any more goodwill on out of warranty units and will take the chance on losing business because if they spend money to fix them but are not selling many units now, they will not be in business much longer either way.

I do agree about the question' whats Lakeshore doing' regarding this after all the good press they get here. Its also another 'bad' regarding extended warranties and the money they cost but whats in the fine print.

The whole situation stinks.

John


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## Dadof4 (Mar 30, 2007)

Hey Doxie,

I was wondering what the deductable is on your extended warranty? What does it cover? What would happen if you ACCIDENTALLY ran the front of your trailer gently into... say... a brick wall?


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Dadof4 said:


> Hey Doxie,
> 
> I was wondering what the deductable is on your extended warranty? What does it cover? What would happen if you ACCIDENTALLY ran the front of your trailer gently into... say... a brick wall?


lol funny!

Thor industries isnt even close to going out of business for anyones info.. There sales arent near as bad as many others and they are still showing a profit for this quarter and this year. Forest River and Jayco still are and so is Heartland.. All of the other towable companies are losing money right now, some more than others. Monaco is down to MH's ony, Pilgram is out, Newmar is close and so is Gulf Stream.

I feel its a border line structural problem and I'm kinda with Mike a bit, but totally understand and do agree with Yguy and Andy too... I cant pick a side both are about equal..

Maybe at least cover 1/2 and Dox covers 1/2. That is the line in the sand I would be drawing if I was Doxie.. 1/2 and 1/2. I do feel the long legged trim is a fix, as long as you get in an agreement that if it gets worse, they will fix it on there dime.

By the way there will be much less so called delam on sydney's and outback 5ers. With the front skin being under much more pressure the cardboard backing has a much harder time buldging or wrinkling the skin. This is why we see much less of a problem with outback sydney's and 5ers.

Carey


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## Dadof4 (Mar 30, 2007)

I'm not sure I meant to be funny.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

One other thing, that crack is only just the filon skin. The dealer should be able to remove the corner moulding and then remove the piece from the crack forward. Then they could fill the area with some new fiberglass, do a spot job with the paint, and if the painter is good, youll never see it. Reattach the corner moulding and youd be good to go. Make sure to get a warranty.

If you have to pay for it, should be maybe 4-500... And there again, not a big deal for Keystone to cover. But still understand if they dont want to..

Carey


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Dadof4 said:


> I'm not sure I meant to be funny.


lol understand.. Your right, this would get Doxie covered.. Prolly be the best fix!


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## 3LEES (Feb 18, 2006)

NJMikeC said:


> This isn't about dollars and cents it is about pleasing the customer. Extended warranty's, time sitting on lot, Is it sunny or rainy, just don't matter. Please the customer or keep him angry. Get enough angry and your done.


I agree with Mike completely.

I work in the construction industry for a "high end" custom home builder. The company warrants their work unconditionally for one year after the Certificate of Occupancy has been issued.

However, my company has MANY times paid for repairs after the warranty period if it is determined that the problem was due to poor workmanship or materials. I personally have been involved in several floor replacements that were coming loose due to poor workmanship by a subcontractor.

What is the BIGGEST reason the owner of my company pays for repairs out of warranty? It is because all of these homeowners frequent the same cocktail circuit and love to gossip. It does not take very much bad publicity to make a real dent in sales. However, by "stepping up to the plate" and paying for repairing obvious bad workmanship, my owner is seen as the white knight that saves the day.

Reputation is golden in business. A company might get by on flash and dance for a while. But without returning customers and customer recommendations, no company can be successful.

This is a chance for Keystone to be the white knight. There has to be a middle ground where Keystone, the extended warranty company, Lakeshore and Tawanya could all benefit. But Keystone needs to take the lead.

Good luck Tawanya.


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

Received the following from Keystone. I faxed them the estimate from my insurance, and this is their response:

*Tawnya,*

*I talked to management about your estimate, and they said that they would be willing to participate in the amount of the estimate. Is Chief's the one who is going to do the work for that amount? If so, we could just pay them direct.*

*









Thank you Keystone!











*


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## cabullydogs (Jul 12, 2008)

Excellent news! We are glad to see some positive progress in your claim. Perhaps now, you can move on to enjoying your trailer again.


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Great news! I'm happy to hear that they are stepping up!


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## Sayonara (Jul 23, 2007)

GOOD TO HEAR !!! What was the fix?


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## jetjane (Feb 8, 2007)

That is great news!


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## OutbackPM (Sep 14, 2005)

Good news for you

The difference between a good company and a bad one is how they deal with problems. Some examples have been given on earlier posts.

Lets hope Keystone stays on the good company side of this.


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

That's awesome news Tawnya! 
















Thank you Keystone!!


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## jasonrebecca (Oct 30, 2007)

That is good to hear that Keystone stepped up to the plate!


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## 3LEES (Feb 18, 2006)

Good news Tawnya...

And good for you Keystone for standing behind your product!


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

What was the repair estimate?


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

CamperAndy said:


> What was the repair estimate?


Around $900


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## Rubrhammer (Nov 27, 2006)

I've reserved comment on this and am glad to see that Keystone is doing right by you. Now I think its time for us as a community to CALL keystone and show them our approval for their upstanding action. We were quick to offer calls to berate now lets be just as quick to congratulate. As good as bad press prods a company to action, good press feels good to them and leads them to repeat that policy.
Bob


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

Rubrhammer said:


> I've reserved comment on this and am glad to see that Keystone is doing right by you. Now I think its time for us as a community to CALL keystone and show them our approval for their upstanding action. We were quick to offer calls to berate now lets be just as quick to congratulate. As good as bad press prods a company to action, good press feels good to them and leads them to repeat that policy.
> Bob


I agree! or at the least,email them, the guy that has been working with me is Mike McGraw.


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## Sayonara (Jul 23, 2007)

Rubrhammer said:


> I've reserved comment on this and am glad to see that Keystone is doing right by you. Now I think its time for us as a community to CALL keystone and show them our approval for their upstanding action. We were quick to offer calls to berate now lets be just as quick to congratulate. As good as bad press prods a company to action, good press feels good to them and leads them to repeat that policy.
> Bob


Well said !!


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## N7OQ (Jun 10, 2006)

Rubrhammer said:


> I've reserved comment on this and am glad to see that Keystone is doing right by you. Now I think its time for us as a community to CALL keystone and show them our approval for their upstanding action. We were quick to offer calls to berate now lets be just as quick to congratulate. As good as bad press prods a company to action, good press feels good to them and leads them to repeat that policy.
> Bob


Good point Bob thanks for bringing this point up, I will have to write them too.

Tawnya I'm so glad for you, I felt so bad when I first read this post and saw the picture so feel so much better now.


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## Crawfish (Sep 14, 2005)

I found this website the other day and look who is on the list. Outback.

RV Lemon Law

Leon


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## cabullydogs (Jul 12, 2008)

Given enough time, that law firm will probably have every manufacturer/model on that list for some reason or another....


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Crawfish said:


> I found this website the other day and look who is on the list. Outback.
> 
> RV Lemon Law
> 
> Leon


Who isn't on the list?!?!


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## 2dayinc (Jul 2, 2008)

AWESOME! Way to go Keystone. Makes me feel good about my purchase.


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

You realize it could actually be an item that Keystone put in the unit made by someone else, lets see, Dometic fridges recalled come to mind. I would like more facts before passing blanket judgement.

John


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## wolfwood (Sep 19, 2005)

tdvffjohn said:


> You realize it could actually be an item that Keystone put in the unit made by someone else, lets see, Dometic fridges recalled come to mind. I would like more facts before passing blanket judgement.
> 
> John


Oh, John







There you go being practical, level-headed, and reasonable again......










Congratulations, T !!!


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## Rollrs45 (May 7, 2007)

tdvffjohn said:


> You realize it could actually be an item that Keystone put in the unit made by someone else, lets see, Dometic fridges recalled come to mind. I would like more facts before passing blanket judgement.
> 
> John


John,

I don't think he was "passing blanket judgment". I think he was just trying to keep us all informed and aware of options available to us, should we have a problem. I feel lucky to have people on this forum with that kind of knowledge.

Thanks Leon!









Mike


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## Dorothe (Jan 27, 2008)

Doxie-Doglover-Too said:


> I'm here for you Doxie...
> What can I do to help???


Hi Dawn









If I can't get Keystone to listen to me again, I may need reinforcements!








[/quote]

I am not sure why a LEMON LAW would not protect you in this case. I do not own a outback yet... but have been shopping for the right outback TT. I have been on this site for quite some time following stories you all share with each other in order to choose which TT would be best for our family. I love the support you all provide each other. 
I have always felt that you may need to commit a full day of your time and go for someone at the TOP to solve this issue. Don't settle for a "customer service employee" GO STRAIGHT TO THE TOP! it may take a while ... but don't settle for anything else. In our state we have something called "7 on your side" They fight for consumers that have tried EVERYTHING to get a company to work it out with them. When that fails, the local news station finds out WHY they won't address and resolve the problem with the consumer. I wish you only the best... and have not given up on outback YET... If they resolve this issue with you, it would certainly score big in my book.

Dorothe


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## webeopelas (Mar 11, 2006)

I'm glad Keystone stepped up and fixed the problem out of warranty like they did for my 28BHS.

Every trailer manufacturer and probably every car manufacturer has had vehicles returned under a lemon law.

Everything I have read leads me to believe all trailer manufacturers have their problems. I can find people that love every brand of trailer, and others that think they are a piece of junk.

My Forest River has been great, but even it just went into the shop to get a grey tank valve replaced, the frig igniter, and to reseal the underbelly so my carpet isn't wet after driving in the rain.

Discussing these problems and frustrations should not be seen as "blanket judgment" of the manufacturer and certainly no one should feel the need to make excuses for them.

The real "quality" in these trailers tends to be how the manufacturer steps up and fixes the problems that do occur. Keystone did right by me and Doxie, the only reason I did not buy another Keystone was that they did not have a floorplan that I wanted.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Rollrs45 said:


> You realize it could actually be an item that Keystone put in the unit made by someone else, lets see, Dometic fridges recalled come to mind. I would like more facts before passing blanket judgement.
> 
> John


John,

I don't think he was "passing blanket judgment". I think he was just trying to keep us all informed and aware of options available to us, should we have a problem. I feel lucky to have people on this forum with that kind of knowledge.

Thanks Leon!









Mike
[/quote]

Lemon laws for trailers are more an indictment of the dealer then the manufacture when combined often with an unrealistic expectation of some consumers. Manufactures can make a difference if they have active and responsive area reps but for the most part it seems that they rely solely on the skill of the dealer to fix things.

Lemon law does not cover out of warranty, single event issues like this topic was started for. They are for issues that require multiple visit on the same issue where the dealer can not or will not repair the issue and typically the issue must be noted during the warranty period. There are exceptions to every rule but Lemon laws are not applicable on this problem.

As for the Snake oil salesman lawyer that posts "Keystone Outback" as a potential trailer in a lemon law dispute, well that is like saying Chevrolet or General motors is a potential truck in a lemon law dispute. Sure any manufacture can have a lemon but one lemon does not condemn an entire product line.

This lemon law subject is off topic in this thread and if the knowledge wants to be passed on to Outbackers it should be put in its own thread where its merits can be discussed.


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## Rollrs45 (May 7, 2007)

You know, I may be way off in what I'm about to say, but I feel it needs to be said.

I've noticed a repeated pattern on this forum when someone has a "manufacturer" problem (specifically with Keystone) and turns for help or support from their fellow members. Far too many times when someone suggests a route an individual may take to correct a problem or issue, others will chime in and outline the reasons why the suggested idea is wrong. Personal opinions and what I call "gut shots" are often introduced into the topic. This is especially occurring anytime someone mentions or hints at taking some type of action against Keystone.

Also, it appears that a select group are the usual nay-sayers. Is Keystone some type of contributor to this forum or am I confused?

My suggestion is this and you may take it or leave it. If you're going to outline why someone shouldn't or can't take some type of action against Keystone, then offer a solution or route the member can take. Would it not be more productive to give our members suggestions on how to correct or rectify their situation rather than giving them 10 different reasons why someone's suggestion is wrong. I am of the opinion that we should be loyal to our fellow members and not a corporation. If you're going to give your opinion as to why something is wrong or will not work, please bring a possible solution to the table. Thanks.

Mike


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

By 'blanket judgement' , I meant putting on a lemon law list without the reason for being there.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Rollrs45 said:


> You know, I may be way off in what I'm about to say, but I feel it needs to be said.
> 
> I've noticed a repeated pattern on this forum when someone has a "manufacturer" problem (specifically with Keystone) and turns for help or support from their fellow members. Far too many times when someone suggests a route an individual may take to correct a problem or issue, others will chime in and outline the reasons why the suggested idea is wrong. Personal opinions and what I call "gut shots" are often introduced into the topic. This is especially occurring anytime someone mentions or hints at taking some type of action against Keystone.
> 
> ...


Okay Mike I will respond, yes I think you may be confused on a few points.

First and foremost Keystone has ZERO input into what is or is not posted on this web site. This site is 100% member supported, you can see who supports this site by seeing the "Outbackers Contributor" stamp by the avatar.

You say that posts should be helpful well I think mine are but you bring up a point and I think you should look at your post to see if it meets the same helpful requirement you ask others to have. Supporting the post of another member who links to an Ohio Lawyer that chases Lemon law complaints does not seem too helpful for a member in Washington state. Please read the Lemon law requirements and you will see that they do not apply here.

Doxie know me and knows that I support her but she also knows that I don't sugar coat much. I wished her luck in getting this fixed on Keystones dime since the beginning of this issue and hope that it is done correctly and to her satisfaction. That lack of sugar coating also goes for how I feel about suggestions, that before she exhausted all normal direct communication with Keystone, that she should consult a lawyer and Lemon law the trailer. Lemon laws and the final results are not intended to fix an item it is intend to return or replace an item, how is that helpful when Doxie wants it repaired??

All of this is not just my personal opinion but it my informed opinion. Had you suggested a method of Fiberglas repair or a shop that does these types of repair or maybe even a method to cover up the crack to prevent water getting in you would not have been "gut shot" (by the way can you tell us who has been gut shot so we can see what that is) you would have heard from people that felt that those things would or would not have worked for what ever reason. Now when you then heard that maybe one of your suggestions would not work would you have been felt that you were gut shot since someone did not agree with you??


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## kyoutback (Jul 12, 2004)

*"Danger! Danger! Warning Will Robinson, This thread is about to be sucked into a black hole never to be heard from again"*


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## Rollrs45 (May 7, 2007)

CamperAndy said:


> You know, I may be way off in what I'm about to say, but I feel it needs to be said.
> 
> I've noticed a repeated pattern on this forum when someone has a "manufacturer" problem (specifically with Keystone) and turns for help or support from their fellow members. Far too many times when someone suggests a route an individual may take to correct a problem or issue, others will chime in and outline the reasons why the suggested idea is wrong. Personal opinions and what I call "gut shots" are often introduced into the topic. This is especially occurring anytime someone mentions or hints at taking some type of action against Keystone.
> 
> ...


Okay Mike I will respond, yes I think you may be confused on a few points.

First and foremost Keystone has ZERO input into what is or is not posted on this web site. This site is 100% member supported, you can see who supports this site by seeing the "Outbackers Contributor" stamp by the avatar.

You say that posts should be helpful well I think mine are but you bring up a point and I think you should look at your post to see if it meets the same helpful requirement you ask others to have. Supporting the post of another member who links to an Ohio Lawyer that chases Lemon law complaints does not seem too helpful for a member in Washington state. Please read the Lemon law requirements and you will see that they do not apply here.

Doxie know me and knows that I support her but she also knows that I don't sugar coat much. I wished her luck in getting this fixed on Keystones dime since the beginning of this issue and hope that it is done correctly and to her satisfaction. That lack of sugar coating also goes for how I feel about suggestions, that before she exhausted all normal direct communication with Keystone, that she should consult a lawyer and Lemon law the trailer. Lemon laws and the final results are not intended to fix an item it is intend to return or replace an item, how is that helpful when Doxie wants it repaired??

All of this is not just my personal opinion but it my informed opinion. Had you suggested a method of Fiberglas repair or a shop that does these types of repair or maybe even a method to cover up the crack to prevent water getting in you would not have been "gut shot" (by the way can you tell us who has been gut shot so we can see what that is) you would have heard from people that felt that those things would or would not have worked for what ever reason. Now when you then heard that maybe one of your suggestions would not work would you have been felt that you were gut shot since someone did not agree with you??
[/quote]

Well, since I have obviously struck a nerve I'll respond .....

You may be a little confused as well

1st - I did not post the idea of a lemon law, nor do I think it would work. However, thank you so much for the crash course in civil law.

2nd - Even though I feel the lemon law would not help her in this situation, I didn't take (and here is your definition of a gut shot) a personal stab, snide remark, innuendo, or otherwise, at the person who did.

"This lemon law subject is off topic in this thread and if the knowledge wants to be passed on to Outbackers it should be put in its own thread where its merits can be discussed."

What purpose did that remark make? A simple, "I don't believe the lemon law would apply in this case," would have been sufficient.

3rd - I'm not against anyone posting an informed opinion about any topic whatsoever. However, if you are going to downplay someones idea or suggestion then offer a solution yourself.

4th - I am well aware of what a "contributor" is. Notice that title is not under my avatar???? Also, I believe that Crawfish (the one who suggested lemon laws) is a contributor themselves......

The point is this:

There seems to be a lot of tension around here when it comes to anyone mentioning anything that relates to taking on Keystone; for what reason I do not know. Maybe it 's brand loyalty, or maybe there is some sort of hard feelings about certain individuals. Who knows....... The idea of my post was to ask that people offer solutions and not comments that (at face value) appear to be negative comments for another member's idea. If you took it personally then............ ??????????

I like my cookies without sugar, too.









Mike


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Mike you did not post the Lemon law link but your first comment was one that indicated you agreed that it was a good idea as you indicated in your last post you know it would not work. So that is good information for the group to know that all though there is a Lemon law out there this is not the case for it to be used. This rebuttal information is as or more valuable then the suggestion that the Lemon laws apply.

As for the snide comment or gut shot. As a moderator we try to keep threads focused. Unfortunately I failed on this one. This thread is about a crack and if Keystone will pay for it. Suggestions to call Keystone or comments on methods to repair it are great as are comments of support but even a casual reading of Lemon laws indicates it would not apply (place dead horse here to be beaten). The comment that the Lemon law should have its own thread is one that you will see more and more often as we as moderators have been talking on what should happen when threads stray and the answer is to request or create a new thread with the new direction. I would love to see a thread started by someone with a genuine interest in the ins and outs of current Lemon laws so a request that it have its own thread is more of compliment then a stab.

Just as you feel that some people seem to pick on others it is just as obvious to everyone else that there are some that stir just for the sake of seeing what will splash out of the pot.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.


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## prevish gang (Mar 19, 2006)

kyoutback said:


> *"Danger! Danger! Warning Will Robinson, This thread is about to be sucked into a black hole never to be heard from again"*


That's cute! Gave me a good laugh today!

The bottom line here is not our individual opinions on the matter. The bottom line is that Doxie had a BIG issue and was frustrated that nothing was being done to help her. Thankfully, it seems that this matter is going to be resolved.

The people at OB read here. I know they do because I have direct contact with other divisions of Keystone. They recognize this site as valuable in their future sales and so if issues are brought up it is a fantastic way to have your problem solved to make sure you note that you have posted something here. Doxie's fix of less than $1000.00 is WAY less expensive than bad press to the potential owners out there. 
They do not contribute other than items or services they may donate for a rally, but I would imagine that our owner would get a little nervous when lawsuits are mentioned here when I am sure he is doing his best to maintain a good relationship with them. I doubt if anyone couldn't understand that.

I hope we can focus on the main issue at hand and get back to that.

Darlene


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## Rollrs45 (May 7, 2007)

CamperAndy said:


> Mike you did not post the Lemon law link but your first comment was one that indicated you agreed that it was a good idea as you indicated in your last post you know it would not work. So that is good information for the group to know that all though there is a Lemon law out there this is not the case for it to be used. This rebuttal information is as or more valuable then the suggestion that the Lemon laws apply.
> 
> As for the snide comment or gut shot. As a moderator we try to keep threads focused. Unfortunately I failed on this one. This thread is about a crack and if Keystone will pay for it. Suggestions to call Keystone or comments on methods to repair it are great as are comments of support but even a casual reading of Lemon laws indicates it would not apply (place dead horse here to be beaten). The comment that the Lemon law should have its own thread is one that you will see more and more often as we as moderators have been talking on what should happen when threads stray and the answer is to request or create a new thread with the new direction. I would love to see a thread started by someone with a genuine interest in the ins and outs of current Lemon laws so a request that it have its own thread is more of compliment then a stab.
> 
> ...


I surely hope that your comment about stirring the pot was not directed towards me. If it was, let me reiterate something that was said to me recently,

"Outbackers is all about community and mutual support. It is not about taking personal shots at fellow members opinions."

If your comment was meant for a certain individual of this forum, then you sir are not adhering to the policies set forth by outbackers.com or any of it's affiliates.

That is the message I'm trying to get through. If you set the rules and enforce them, then please abide by them yourself.

Mike


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

No Mike it was not directed to you or any one person. It was a generalization that appears to have come across wrong.

We as moderators get e-mails all the time from people with ruffled feathers because of something said. Everyone sees it but we have to then decide if it is to the level that needs action. Some of these you see and some you don't but I am sure you have seen posts and your first reaction was "Man that will get deleted fast", that is what I meant.


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## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

Back on topic...

Congrats on having Keystone being willing to fix your problem! I have a problem with my AC in my Outback but I am not calling Keystone asking them to fix it because I feel that I had some degree of personal responsibility in the issue. I am very happy that your situation turned out well for you and I want to extend a big KUDO to KEYSTONE for helping out!

-CC


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## Rollrs45 (May 7, 2007)

CamperAndy said:


> No Mike it was not directed to you or any one person. It was a generalization that appears to have come across wrong.
> 
> We as moderators get e-mails all the time from people with ruffled feathers because of something said. Everyone sees it but we have to then decide if it is to the level that needs action. Some of these you see and some you don't but I am sure you have seen posts and your first reaction was "Man that will get deleted fast", that is what I meant.


Thank you for your clarification and I agree, we've strayed way off topic.

Congrats on getting your crack fixed. It's refreshing to hear that 
keystone came to the rescue.

Mike


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## SmkSignals (May 2, 2005)

Rollrs45 said:


> Congrats on getting your crack fixed. Mike


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

We got the trailer back and it looks great! Will post pix soon. It has become apparent that someone, whether it was the factory or initial dealer was aware the the fiberglass was cut too short. There was a filler of some type filling the gap and extra screw on the molding in attempt to get it to hold. It didn't stand a chance of holding. I am extremely grateful that Keystone stepped up and I will be reimbursed in a couple weeks. I am frustrated knowing that someone, somewhere thought it was ok to perform the "fix", they had to have known it would not hold but I doubt they cared.


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

Yeay Doxie!









Glad to hear that your saga had a great ending









Pics! Pics!!!


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## BullwinkleMoose (May 22, 2006)

Doxie-Doglover-Too said:


> So the fiberglass is cracked where the front cap meets the side of the trailer. In addition, there is a dip in the roof and evidently water collects there and has molded the roof. The dealer contacted Keystone and they said no to covering it. The trailer is an 05 but a leftover model we bought in 06, we have used it about 8 times total only because Rick was out of commission all last summer with his leg injury.
> The dealer told me to contact Keystone myself and typically they'll come through. Where do I start?
> Here is the crack:


Doxie, If you are a member of the good sam club you might also wright to their action line and send them the pictures and information and they MIGHT be able to help you. Also I doubt seriously things would have gone any better if this had shown up last year.


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## LA Plouff (Mar 15, 2008)

Doxie-Doglover-Too said:


> Wow. I am keeping an eye on this thread. Come on Keystone... DO THE RIGHT THING !!!


Keystone has already told me to basically pound sand, too bad, tough luck...you get the picture. That was a phone conversation last week. I recently sent them the photos I took ( but not the one from today where you can also see the plywood). They did not respond.

If I did a letter to Keystone, do would any Outbackers "Outbacker Me Up" ? Numbers speak. I am so frustrated that here we sit with this situation and had Rick not been hurt last year and we had camped more, it would have happened sooner but since Rick was busy serving and protecting and getting hurt in the process, the trailer didn't start falling apart in a timely manner that would have then been covered. I wonder what my blood pressure is at this very minute








[/quote]

I had issues (not like yours though) with Keystone. I had to call them and hound them to tke care of my problem. Find out who the local Keystone repair location (our here in WA is CWRV) is and ask *them* who they would recommend as a auto body shop. Go to the body shop and get an estimate on the damage, t*hen* talk to Keystone with the dollar amount. They are more prone to talk dollars and cents when you have the facts. Hope this helps. Just keep hounding Keystone and send them a copy of the blogs at the Outback Forum. They have their reputation to keep, and this would clearly affect that. And then, by God, I will let everyone know who comes by our OB trailer to check it out. One by one, when we acccumulate our drops, we can make a bucket of trouble. Good luck.


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

Please note, in post #102 the crack is fixed! I have pix from the body shop but not sure if they are easy to understand, I will get them uploaded and put the explanation he told me, I tried to zoom the pix in but they lose clarity. The body shop told me they had started using lower resolultion when taking pix because insurance companies were complaining the pix were too big, something like that. I'll work on it now and post later....


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## Scoutr2 (Aug 21, 2006)

Scoutr2 said:


> I'm with you, Doxie. This problem was created at the factory due to poor workmanship. There is nothing wrong with the fiberglass, just the workmanship used to put it together. Keystone has just put a big ***** in their image, as far as I'm concerned. And your dealer doesn't seem to be doing anything except taking NO for an answer.
> 
> It is quite obvious from the photos that the factory used the trim piece to cover the defect, figuring that it would last at least until the warranty expired. It is also obvious that water from a leaky roof did not contribute to this problem. I see no evidence of water damage. (And any water damage that created this, would definately have created even more damage inside the trailer, and delaminating, too.) I hope that Keystone doesn't think that collectively, we are all that stupid.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear that Keystone stepped up to the plate, Doxie. I went back and read my post, and I called this one correctly. It was quite obvious to me from the photos you posted that either the frame was too long or the side panel was too short - either way - a factory defect. I think we can score one for this website.

And as for Keystone - you did the right thing. My confidence that you recognize your mistakes and put the customer first will be tucked away in my memory when the time comes to buy my next RV. In the present economy, a company cannot chase business away. It is hard enough to come by and fixing this problem was probably the the best economic move, in the long run.

Keep up the good work and customer service, Keystone!

Mike


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

The opinion of the body shop owner is that originally when the trailer was built the piece was actually cut too long and to try to solve the problem without removing the whole piece, he feels that someone attempted to cut it while on the trailer with a saw of some sort ( it's cut so jagged) and more than likely cut too much in that particular spot and used a filler to cover the gap. It then took extra screws and there was no way this "fix" was going to hold, it was impossible. It was an error that was covered up by someone probably at the factory. Keystone may never have known anyone did it.









































I asked the guy what is the most amazing thing he has seen and he said a coach that came in , was bought new and was under warranty, there was a problem with the sides. When they started taking it apart they discovered there had been holes in the fiberglass and someone had filled them with spit wads and resurfaced it.


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## N7OQ (Jun 10, 2006)

I'm so glad you got it fixed and it looks good. You must feel so much better now. But I will have to see it up close to see if it is really done right, so you will just have to bring it down here, the NorCal rally would work


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

N7OQ said:


> I'm so glad you got it fixed and it looks good. You must feel so much better now. But I will have to see it up close to see if it is really done right, so you will just have to bring it down here, the NorCal rally would work


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## wolfwood (Sep 19, 2005)

Doxie-Doglover-Too said:


> I'm so glad you got it fixed and it looks good. You must feel so much better now. But I will have to see it up close to see if it is really done right, so you will just have to bring it down here, the NorCal rally would work










[/quote]
And when you're done with the NorCal inspection, you'll have to come East to ensure that the fix is a fix that is acceptable in harsh weather, as well. Hey - you never know!









Congrats on getting it fixed, T....an d to YOUR satisfaction!! Now Cricket doesn't have to teach you how to _REALLY_ growl!


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## skippershe (May 22, 2006)

So what WAS the final fix?
Did they replace the entire side panel or just add a larger trim to cover the crack??


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

skippershe said:


> So what WAS the final fix?
> Did they replace the entire side panel or just add a larger trim to cover the crack??


they didn't need to replace the entire side panel, and no, didn't use larger trim like once was discussed! They were able to repair the crack ( don't know the name of the stuff used for doing that, I'll have to call and ask). Then once it was done, the fiberglass was repaired with fiberglass kit. You can't tell anything was done! The guy on the phone ( not the owner but one of the employees) was certain it will not come apart again. Good enough for me!


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## Colorado Campers (Apr 20, 2004)

Yea







, It's fixed.


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## Doxie-Doglover-Too (Jan 25, 2007)

Colorado Campers said:


> Yea
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and a great big







 to all of you that were supportive and encouraging! And thank you to Keystone for coming through!







All together now:
THANKS KEYSTONE!!!!


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## rdvholtwood (Sep 18, 2008)

Looks Great Doxie!!!







& Thanks Keystone!!!!


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