# Ford 6.0l Psd Owners Speak Up!



## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

Some of you may have seen my other post pertaining to looking at an '04 Excursion with the 6L PSD.

Have any of you 6.0L owners experienced any problems with either the engine or the 5 speed auto tranny it's appear to be coupled with most often? I have heard some horror stories, but most of those are just that, stories.

I am looking for some hard fact type info, to help me decide whether I want to drop down almost $35K for a 2 yo truck, if I'm gonna have problems with it.

Is anyone using fuel additives, or synthetic's in either the crankcase or the tranny?

Thanks
Tim


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## dougdogs (Jul 31, 2004)

whats that then 2004?? if so, I would stay away from it. I have a friend who bought, or should I say Ford bought back three of them from him in 2004!!

First one lasted 4500 miles (head gasket) was in for "service" for 4 weeks before Ford bought it back. Second one lasted about 3500 miles, took Ford less time to buy that one back. His third one lasted about 9000 miles, then he bought a GM

They are supposed to have most of the bugs out now, but 2004 was a very bad year for Ford


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## dougdogs (Jul 31, 2004)

by the way, my friend's was a F350, not an excursion, but same drive train


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

Tim,

If 2004 was a bad year for the 6.0 liter Powerstroke, I hope that by 2005 the problems were past. We have the truck in our signature. So far, nothing but good things to say....not a bit of trouble. The engine's power & torque are impressive and the trans is a beauty.

No synthetic oil in engine or trans/differentials yet. We may switch in the future.

Bill


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

Tim so far I've had no problems with my 2005. Very close friends of ours have had 3 F350s. One was an 03 with major problems after Ford reflashed the truck. They traded it in on an 04, no problems with it, they did say the mileage wasn't as good as the 03 before it was flashed. Then they bought an 05 since they needed a dually (nice to have cash or all that huh?).

When I was shopping I did a lot of reading on these units. I would hands down avoid an 03 unless you could get service records. If it was an 04 I'd still try to get service records or call the local Ford shop. There were good units and some lemons.

I really haven't read that many problems with the transmission, most were engine issues.

Good luck. A good site is http://forums.thedieselstop.com


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

Most of the problems that I saw on the Ford Truck Enthusiatist Forum were related to the reflash on the '03's.

This truck has 22,000 miles on it, so I would imagine any of the earlier problems would have surfaced, and it still has the balance of the factory warranty on it.

I am starting to have some weight concerns now too. From what I have been able to gather both here, and at the previously mentioned forum, the Excursion will tip the scales somewhere in the 7500-7800# region. With the tongue wgt of the Outback being close to 800# (780# when I weighed it last spring), that leaves me about 200 for passengers and cargo.

I think that before I buy this thing, I want it weighed, so I know how much room I have.

Probably just going to look at pickups. I really like the 2500HD with the D/A combo.

Tim


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## camping479 (Aug 27, 2003)

> I am starting to have some weight concerns now too. From what I have been able to gather both here, and at the previously mentioned forum, the Excursion will tip the scales somewhere in the 7500-7800# region. With the tongue wgt of the Outback being close to 800# (780# when I weighed it last spring), that leaves me about 200 for passengers and cargo.


After looking into an excursion over the summer, I read some of the same things Tim. As big and heavy as the ex is, it hits it's gvw pretty easily. With a 9200gvw, if it weighs 7700 empty, by the time you add tongue weight, people and gear, you're right there at gvw.

Good luck with your decision,

Mike


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

Tim,

Like you said, weigh the truck and then you'll know. Our F250 crew cab, 4X4, PSD is less than 7700 lbs. As I recall it's under 7500 lbs.

But your statement about a new GM pickup, 2500HD with duramax and allison sounds pretty good too. Seems you should be able to get one without all the options for under $40,000 out the door.

See? I can give credit where credit is due. All the heavy duty domestic trucks are good iron.

Bill


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## KRKarnes (Jul 9, 2005)

My 2002 V10 Gas Excursion is going strong still and will pass just about anything even when pulling the TT. But it has a drinking problem. It loves gas.


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

Tim does the rig have airbags? If not from all I have read you'll want them, the Ex is very soft on the rear end much like an Avalanche - did it for city driving but its not the greatest for towing.


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

I would say probably not. I gave the receiver a pretty good once over, and it doesn't appear to have been used at all. No tell tale wear marks where a hitch bar may have been inserted a few times.

Tomorrow, I am going to call the dealership and ask them to weigh the truck. Even if it doesn't have a full tank, I can figure the diesel wgt and add that in. I want to know what my margin is going to be with the payload after the tongue is dropped onto the rear.

Tim


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## nascarcamper (Jan 27, 2005)

Mine 250 is 7760 with me and 3/4 tank of fuel. Not a problem on mine so far.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2006)

Tim,

Last year I purchased a used 2004 Ford Excursion with the 6.0 PSD. I would recommend checking the date code on the engine and checking the post on the dieselstop.com. From the research I did on the 6.0 PSD I would not purchase a 2003. So far I have not had any problems at all with this vechile. Since I communite 100+ miles a day. I drive the Honda Civic and my wife drives the Excursion. I'm curious what the curb weight is for this vechile. I'm going to weight it this weekend.

Jeff


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## MGWorley (May 29, 2005)

VERY pleased with my 05 which I've had for 12 months. (See signature)

Not 1 problem with it.

Mike


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## 2500Ram (Oct 30, 2005)

Long read but just found this today. Source Here but pulls up a page not found. Original post from here

Bill.

News
Ford's diesel drama drags on: Power Stroke woes anger buyers, drive up warranty costs
RICHARD TRUETT | Automotive News 
Posted Date: 12/14/05
James and Penny Schrader have bought Fords faithfully for 30 years.

But persistent problems with the Power Stroke diesel engine in their 2004 F-250 pickup have unraveled three decades of brand loyalty. The Schraders, both 63, put a second mortgage on their home in Linden, Mich., to buy the $45,000 truck. Now they say they'll probably never buy another Ford.

"My husband wouldn't look at anything else," says Penny Schrader of their pickup. "But I don't care how good their product was in the past. They haven't treated me well as a loyal customer."

The Schraders aren't alone. Ford Motor Co. has been sued at least 58 times by consumers who bought 2003- and 2004-model Power Stroke trucks. The company also has fielded more than 12,000 consumer complaints, according to Ford's internal warranty data.

Not a minor flaw

This isn't a minor flaw that Ford can dispatch with basic service. The Power Stroke's warranty repair costs are battering Ford's bottom line. In a conference call with Wall Street analysts last March, a company executive acknowledged that Ford's diesel-powered super-duty pickups suffered from quality problems.

Ford has declined to estimate the cost of fixing those defective Power Stroke engines. But Ford has acknowledged that its warranty costs ballooned by $500 million through the first nine months of 2005, compared with the same period a year earlier.

Ford says it is honoring the engine's five-year, 100,000-mile warranty and doing everything it can to repair it. And newer versions of the engine in late 2004- and 2005-model pickups are more reliable.

But the problem will continue to fester. Ford already has sold more than 384,000 diesel trucks with potentially defective engines. And customers like the Schraders appear ready to abandon the brand.

Fixing its diesel problems - in terms of both engine performance and public confidence - is crucial for Ford because the stakes are enormous: Diesels account for about 25 percent of all F-series sales, and the 6.0-liter Power Stroke is a $5,000 option. The engine is offered on medium- and heavy-duty pickups, and had been offered on the discontinued Ford Excursion SUV.

From 225,000 to 250,000 diesel-powered F-series trucks are sold each year, at prices ranging from $30,000 to $50,000-plus.

If Ford can't put things right, the Power Stroke could cause a consumer backlash similar to that of Chrysler's problem-plagued Ultradrive transmission, which alienated minivan owners in the early 1990s.

"If this isn't fixed, and fixed right, and customer satisfaction put back on track, there will be fallout," says Art Spinella, president of CNW Marketing Research Inc. in Bandon, Ore. "Ford will lose buyers to Dodge and General Motors."

Trouble from the start

The 6.0-liter Power Stroke engine has been troublesome from the day it was launched in the fall of 2002. It replaced a somewhat unrefined 7.3-liter diesel.

The powertrain was built by a longtime Ford diesel supplier, International Truck and Engine Corp., of Melrose Park, Ill.

For this version of the engine, International Truck designed a unique high-pressure fuel-injection system.

Most automakers use only electronic controls to operate the fuel injectors in a common-rail system. But the Power Stroke's fuel injectors are operated by a high-pressure oil pump as well as electronics.

According to several of the 150-plus complaints posted on the Web site of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, some trucks never even made it home from the dealership before the fuel injectors or turbocharger failed.

The engine also has been plagued with leaky fuel injectors, oil leaks, broken turbochargers, wiring harness troubles, faulty sensors, defective exhaust gas recirculation valves and bad computers.

Since the engine debuted three years ago, Ford has issued at least 77 technical service bulletins. That is far above average, even for a new engine. These bulletins tell mechanics how to diagnose and fix various problems.

By comparison, there have been eight service bulletins for GM's Duramax diesel V-8 and none for the diesel engine in the Dodge Ram truck. Both engines debuted at about the same time as the Power Stroke.

After just a year on the market, International almost completely redesigned the Power Stroke's fuel system, replacing or redesigning nearly 500 parts. That helped reduce the number of problems, but did not cure the engine of all its ills. Ford has voluntarily recalled the engine at least twice to fix various problems.

The troubles have caused a rift in relations between Ford and International.

The engine can be repaired and made reliable, says International spokesman Bob Carso. Engineers from Ford and International have fixed the problems that plagued the early versions of the engine, he said.

But Carso says the engine is extremely complex and requires "outstanding diagnostic capabilities" to properly identify and repair the faulty parts.

Less help from Ford?

When the Power Stroke's troubles surfaced, Ford tried hard to keep customers happy. In the summer of 2003, Ford took the unusual step of buying back 500 trucks, mostly because of fuel system problems.

But two diesel technicians say Ford has changed the way it deals with the engine problems.

"When they first started out with the 6.0-liter, Ford had a team that was looking over every bit of it and just doing whatever it took to get them fixed," says Mark Ward, a master diesel technician at Landers McLarty Ford in Bentonville, Ark. "And then that just shut off like a light when Ford found out how much losses they were having."

Ward contends Ford is trying to shift more repair costs onto consumers.

"We used to replace turbochargers left and right if the fins had any damage to them," he says. "Now they (Ford) won't accept a turbo back with any fin damage. They are saying if there is any (turbocharger) fin damage whatsoever, it has to be from a dirty air filter. You have to inform the customer that Ford won't pay for that. It's $700, plus the labor."

The fin is the part of the turbocharger that is driven by engine's exhaust system.

"When the 6.0 is running properly, it has much better performance than the 7.3 did," says Charles Ledger, a Ford master technician from Oroville, Calif. "Unfortunately, the 6.0 is plagued with sensor problems." Ledger dispenses advice on his Dieselmann Web site (intellidog.com/dieselmann/home.html).

Ford: No change in policy

Cisco Codina, president of Ford's customer service division, says Ford is not blaming consumers or trying to shift repair costs onto buyers.

"We have not changed any policies whatsoever as it relates to defective material," Codina says. "We don't try to put this blame on the customers. We will spend whatever amount of time and money necessary to help customers who have problems."

Not all of the Power Stroke's defects can be blamed on Ford and International. Consumers may cause problems by installing unauthorized parts that boost engine output. Aftermarket computer chips and exhaust systems can upset the delicate tuning of the engine and cause head gaskets to blow out, Ward says.

Last year Ford and International officials told Automotive News that the Power Stroke's troubles were over. But that turns out to be only partially true.

The engines made today have a better record for reliability, according to NHTSA (see story, above). But those 2003- and early 2004-model engines keep breaking down. And consumers are angry at having to return to the dealership time after time for "reflashes" - new software to be installed in the vehicle's engine computer or other repairs.

Getting better

The number of complaints for 2005 Power Stroke engines has dropped sharply compared with earlier versions since last year's redesign of the engine's fuel system.

But there still are thousands on the road that are not reliable - and may never be. Design deficiencies in some faulty parts, Ward says, have not been addressed.

"If you look at the part number at the new one you are putting on, it's identical to the one you are taking out," notes Ward, the Arkansas technician. "If you start out with something cheap, what do you expect to happen?"

Ward details the engine's troubles and Ford's technical service bulletins on his Web site, flatratetech.com.

The Power Stroke's troubles are reminiscent of Chrysler Corp.'s A-604 automatic transmission - dubbed Ultradrive - that was introduced in Chrysler minivans in 1989. The first versions of the electronically shifted transmission had more problems than a calculus book. Technicians couldn't fix them, consumers were fuming, and Chrysler ended up replacing thousands of transmissions under warranty.

But Codina says Power Stroke has generated more complaints than rival diesels simply because more diesel Fords are on the road.

Says Codina: "We try to address each and every (problem) as we became aware of them. I am sure I am not aware of all of them. But if they (consumers) come to us, we try to do our very best. But today if you have one or two problems, people are not very happy with you."

One more chance

As for the Schraders, three days before they were to appear before a Lemon Law arbitration panel in November, Ford offered to buy back their old truck, waive mileage costs and put them in a 2006 model.

After consulting with a lawyer, the Schraders took the deal. The couple left Michigan a few days later for a road trip West. But they are still angry with Ford because they had to spend a year trying to get their truck fixed.

And they will not cut the new truck any slack. If the new truck so much as sputters, James Schrader says he will pull into the nearest Dodge dealership and trade it for a Ram


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

Dodge propaganda. I like my Powerstroke and haven't heard all the complaints that would result if there were even 10% of the problems that story insinuates.

Bill


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## 2500Ram (Oct 30, 2005)

cookie9933 said:


> Dodge propaganda.Â I like my Powerstroke and haven't heard all the complaints that would result if there were even 10% of the problems that story insinuates.
> 
> Bill
> [snapback]75138[/snapback]​


I will agree to a point but they are bashing DC in the same report so I don't think it's as skewed as you think.



> If Ford can't put things right, the Power Stroke could cause a consumer backlash similar to that of Chrysler's problem-plagued Ultradrive transmission, which alienated minivan owners in the early 1990s.


I don't own a Ford Diesel that's obvious. What the topic started with was someone looking at a used 04 6.0L Powerstroke. Yes there were huge improvements in 04 and especially in 05 so buyer beware.

Bill.


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## nascarcamper (Jan 27, 2005)

Posted this over on the diesel additive by mistake. Anyone got the no charge customer satisfaction program notice for the reflash and have you had it done? There's also a coolant level indicator change too. Haven't heard good things on prior reflashes.


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

I have heard some of those stories, and I have also heard plenty of good things too. I suspect that the article posted was a somewhat biased report. I notice that it made no mention of the troubles that have plagued the Dodge transmissions.

nascarcamper, if you check out Ford Truck Enthusiastsyou will find lots of info on the new reflash, as well as what engine build dates it applies. There is a whole section dedicated to the 6.0 Powerstroke.

Oregon Family, I test drove it again today, and took a ride by the stone yard to run it across the scale. With about 1/8 tank of fuel, and just my daughter (about 35lbs) in her car seat. It weighed 7660#, which is 20# less then what Ford says the base curb wgt is.

Tim


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## Nickens (Oct 6, 2005)

I was going to get an Excursion until I did the same calculations as you did. If you get a Limited or Eddie package and a V10 4x4 you will eat up 700 lbs of your 1900 lb payload in options, shave another 200 or so for the diesel. Add 800 for tongue weight and you are at the limit.

I just bought a 2004 F350 4x4 crew 6.0L instead. I'm gambling a little because it is a buy-back but it does come with a 12 month bumper-to-bumper warranty from Ford. Seems to perform fine. 13-14 empty in heavy city traffic, 20.5 on flat freeways at 64 mph. Haven't towed yet, but it seems to be okay. I also got it at $10k below KBB retail.

I think I will come out ahead in the long run. Don't get an F250 because you'll have the same payload problem as the Ex.

If you still want an Excursion, look for one of those Centurion F350 conversions...

Good Luck!!! (to both of us)


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

nascarcamper said:


> Posted this over on the diesel additive by mistake. Anyone got the no charge customer satisfaction program notice for the reflash and have you had it done? There's also a coolant level indicator change too. Haven't heard good things on prior reflashes.
> [snapback]75178[/snapback]​


nascar,

We have the same year F250 with PSD. I have never heard anything from Ford regarding any programs or recalls, etc. I wonder why one truck is involved and another isn't?

Bill


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## nascarcamper (Jan 27, 2005)

hatcityhosehauler said:


> I have heard some of those stories, and I have also heard plenty of good things too. I suspect that the article posted was a somewhat biased report. I notice that it made no mention of the troubles that have plagued the Dodge transmissions.
> 
> nascarcamper, if you check out Ford Truck Enthusiastsyou will find lots of info on the new reflash, as well as what engine build dates it applies. There is a whole section dedicated to the 6.0 Powerstroke.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I'll check that out. action


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

Just received the notice from Ford. They call it a "Customer Satisfaction Program".

Hmmm. Says it's gonna improve the engine's performance and reliability. But I figure anytime reliability improves, it has to be at the expense of performance.

Bill


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## nascarcamper (Jan 27, 2005)

Everyone at the diesel sites are scratching their heads on whether or not to do it. There are a couple that had it done and note no difference that they can tell yet. I think I'll wait for my next oil change and get it all at once. At least there will be lube involved if I end up screwed.


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

I wonder if Ford wants all the Powerstrokes to be checked to see if customers have altered their stock programming with an aftermarket "tuner". I haven't done so and I probably won't as long as the warranty is in force. Actually, even if I eventually do so, it would be to improve milage only. In stock tune, the engine has plenty of power.

Bill


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## Steelhead (Nov 14, 2005)

Sorry to sound stupid, but I have a gasser Ford. What's a "Reflash" ?









sunny

Dallas


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

That's when they rewrite or "update" the software program on your computerized engine control system.

Bill


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## Steelhead (Nov 14, 2005)

Thanks Bill. Since our TV is 10 yr. old and I'm much older, just haven't kept up with this stuff as much as I should have.

sunny

Dallas


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## snsgraham (May 18, 2004)

_"just haven't kept up with this stuff as much as I should have"_

Or needed to....fortunatley!
I bought a new Ford diesel in '86. This engine had really bad problems with oil consumption just like another '85 we had here at work. The Navistar engine in my truck was eating itself alive according to several oil analysis's that were done. Early in '86 Ford's service book said that 1 quart every 900 miles was normal. By the time I had a meeting with the district service rep about my complaint Ford had officially lowered 1 quart consumption to 600 miles.
Fords changing the rules in the middle of the game is something I have witnessed and I swore from that point on I would never own another Ford diesel engine.

I really like the Duramax systems on the 3 trucks we have here at work. One of them is a first year product, the boss is still holding out for a Duramax Suburban..only one problem so far and that was some kind of an electronic glitch in one of the original Allison transmissions. 
IF money was no object, I would/might have a Duramax.

Make as informed a decision that you can, what more are any of us able to do??

Edumacate thyself!!
Scott


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

snsgraham said:


> Edumacate thyself!!
> Scott
> [snapback]75317[/snapback]​


I agree. Edumacation is very important.









Bill


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## Steelhead (Nov 14, 2005)

doesn't sound like that edumacation led to a PSD.
A graduate of the school of hard knocks.









sunny

Dallas


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

Just wanted to thank all for your input. I have taken everything into consideration, as well as info I have gleamed form other sites, FTE mostly, and my wife and I have decided to give in to the fever.

We pick up the Excursion on Monday.

Tim


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

Good Luck Tim and family

Just to help with the fever.....take two beers and post in the morning.


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## snsgraham (May 18, 2004)

You have to wait all the way to MONDAY??? I would not be able to get much sleep between now and then, not to mention the "acid stomach"!

Good luck, you will be fine!

Scott


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## chetlenox (Feb 3, 2004)

"It replaced a somewhat unrefined 7.3-liter diesel."

Hey, that's me they are talking about!

Oh yeah, I am kindof a slob...









Chet.


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## port4 (May 30, 2005)

Just bought a F250SD crew Lariat. Spent lots of $. 6.0L Diesel. Had it for 7 days. Drove it for 500mi. give or take. One morning, on the garage floor was a small puddle of OIL. Turns out the rear main seal was leaking. Had to be from 0 miles. I insisted on a new vehicle. No can do the dealer told me. They appear to have repaired the problem but time will tell. I sure hope that this oil leak is not an inclination of future problems. Steve


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## cookie9933 (Feb 26, 2005)

port4 said:


> Turns out the rear main seal was leaking.Â
> Â Steve
> 
> 
> ...


Steve,

I wouldn't like it either. But a new oil seal is no big deal and should solve that problem.

I would hope the 6.0 liter PSD is a good engine, since I have one too. International has been producing good diesel engines for many years. We should be fine.

Bill


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

4 of the pumpers we have at work are running a Detroit Diesel Series 40, which is an International DT466, build under license by DD, or something or another. Anyway, they use the same High Pressure Fuel Injector rail that the 6.0 PSD uses.

We haven't had too many problems with them.

Tim


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## chetlenox (Feb 3, 2004)

I've got to think they go the problems with the 6.0 ironed out after a year or two. I mean, I can't think of a more important market for Ford than diesel trucks.

I wonder if we did some digging for news reports of when the old 7.3 liter (like the one in my truck) first came out, and found some similiar reaction to all that "new fangled technology"...









Chet.


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## nascarcamper (Jan 27, 2005)

I still say the amount of problems versus the number of trucks on the road is a very small percentage. You always hear about the problems but the happy people aren't searching online for answers.


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