# Axle Flips



## Kyoutbacker (Apr 26, 2006)

Yesterday, as I had my mechanic replace my Nanco tires with the new ones they sent (another story), I asked him his opinion of axle flips. I value his opinion because he repairs many (broken) TT's being right next to our State Park and close to I-75. He said he has done them, but does not recommend them for the following reasons:
1. Raises center of gravity too high.
2. U-bolts designed for specific use.
3. Here is the kicker - He has seen (on axle flips) where (hard) side loading of the tires (as in what DITCH ?) has bent the steel mounts that are welded to the frame. (Those ones where the spring assembly mounts to).
4. More expensive than solution below.

His recommendation is to have a welder remove the old steel mounts welded to the frame and have square steel tube (large enough to cut and go on side of frame) welded in place that are 2-3 inches longer that the old mounts. Your axles and springs remain the same as before but are now mounted 2-3 inches lower.
This also gives a suspension that can handle heavier (larger) tires and rims without giving way under side loading stresses, if that is the ultimate goal.

This is for your general information. Not my ultimate opinion. I'll wait a year and ask for more options/opinions before I do mine.


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

Interesting opinion and solution...

John


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

There is more then one way to skin a cat.

Sorry I forgot this was be kind to animals week but no animals were harmed when I rendered the above opinion.


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## 2500Ram (Oct 30, 2005)

A friend of mine just bought a Rockwood Roo 23ss, I know not an OB but in looking at some pictures they have what they call a Roo Riser.

A picture can be found here http://community.webshots.com/photo/403140...046203164TCrzhY

I can't link to webshots so clicky above.

I believe this is what your talking about.

Bill.


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

2500Ram said:


> A friend of mine just bought a Rockwood Roo 23ss, I know not an OB but in looking at some pictures they have what they call a Roo Riser.
> 
> A picture can be found here http://community.webshots.com/photo/403140...046203164TCrzhY
> 
> ...


Are those copper pipes under his Roo?


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Oregon_Camper said:


> 2500Ram said:
> 
> 
> > A friend of mine just bought a Rockwood Roo 23ss, I know not an OB but in looking at some pictures they have what they call a Roo Riser.
> ...


Those copper pipes are the same way my Coleman PUP was done for gas supply.


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## Grunt0311 (Aug 23, 2005)

Not that I am doubting the mechanic, but I really do not support the whole "raised the center of gravity to high" thing. 3-5 inches isnt a huge difference, and the "Springdale" sits even higher than that. If it was a huge problem, the manufacturer wouldnt be doing it.

Just my 2 cents


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## Reverie (Aug 9, 2004)

I don't have a problem with raising the trailer. I do agree that it changes the geometry of the suspension but this isn't that big a deal unless you really overload the trailer. If you are a weight-hog you might nead more than an axle flip to make this work. You may need an upgraded suspension with stouter springs and possibly shocks.

Reverie


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Kyoutbacker,

Your mechanic has an interesting - and probably valid - alternative to the axle flip question, but I have to take exception to his reasoning...



Kyoutbacker said:


> 1. Raises center of gravity too high.


He is correct in this, but we are only talking about 4-5 inches here, and this is not a sports car we're talking about. My personal experience is that I cannot detect any reduction in cornering ability with my axles flipped.



Kyoutbacker said:


> 2. U-bolts designed for specific use.


The loading on the U-bolts would actually be reduced with the axle flip. In the stock layout, they are locating the axles and carrying the weight of the trailer (in tension). After the axle flip, they only have to locate the axle.



Kyoutbacker said:


> 3. Here is the kicker - He has seen (on axle flips) where (hard) side loading of the tires (as in what DITCH ?) has bent the steel mounts that are welded to the frame. (Those ones where the spring assembly mounts to).


He may have a point here, the increased distance from the ground to the trailer frame (lever arm), would indeed create an increased load on the axle/frame mounting points under side loading conditions. It would take a more extensive structural analysis then we are in a position to investigate here, but it would be my 'gut' feeling that other components would likely fail first. Even if they didn't, if you put your Outback in a ditch, you should expect that it is going to be damaged, axle flip or not!



Kyoutbacker said:


> 4. More expensive than solution below.
> 
> His recommendation is to have a welder remove the old steel mounts welded to the frame and have square steel tube (large enough to cut and go on side of frame) welded in place that are 2-3 inches longer that the old mounts. Your axles and springs remain the same as before but are now mounted 2-3 inches lower.
> This also gives a suspension that can handle heavier (larger) tires and rims without giving way under side loading stresses, if that is the ultimate goal.


What happened to that concern about the Center of Gravity???

As I said in the beginning... This is probably a valid alternative method of raising the trailer (Also, one that would almost guaranty a voided warranty, what with welding to the frame, and all), but I do not buy his arguments that the more 'accepted' method is inferior.

IMHO

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## Thor (Apr 7, 2004)

I like the Roo riser idea









The question on ground clearance of trailers...Is the Outback that much different than any other trailer out there or are campgrounds that hilly that bottoming out is a real problem?

I have not bottom out yet on the road or in a campground and I do alot of dry camping so I have been places that trailers would normally never go.









I raised my stairs as a pre-caution based on this forum.

Maybe changing the hitch set-up at the front might make a difference at the rear. (lowering the front by 1/2" may raise the back by 1/2" + based on the fulcrum?

How much do you actually gain flipping axels?
Is adding a 2" spacer enough? (the Roo idea)
Changing from 14" to 15" tire enough?
Maybe a combination of ideas will give you the desired clearance?

How much extra clearance are we looking for? This mod has always interested me however; so far I have not experienced the need to do it. I guess it is one of thoses mods you do once you bottomed out a few times









Thor


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## tdvffjohn (Mar 10, 2005)

Flipping the axles gains 4 1/2 inches.

Upgrading to 15's ...less than an inch.

The only place I have touched my rear stairs is my own driveway









John


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## huntr70 (Jul 8, 2005)

Our last TT, the Smokey, had the axles mounted under the springs.

I asked the salesman about why most Mfg were going to the high setup, and he said it was because people complained about dragging the rear ends.

Steve


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## LarryTheOutback (Jun 15, 2005)

For what it's worth, I was at the Dexter Axle www.dexteraxle.com site yesterday and noticed that they have a kit for axle flipping (here); they call it "Trailer Height Adjustment".

Ed


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## biga (Apr 17, 2006)

Has anyone compared gas mileage before and after the axle flip? It seems to me, you would be increasing turbulence below the camper which increases the drag coefficient, and you are increasing the frontal area of the camper by 3 square feet. Aerodynamic drag is drag coefficient x frontal area. so if your increasing both, gas mileage would have to go down. I am just wondering how much.


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## camping479 (Aug 27, 2003)

biga said:


> Has anyone compared gas mileage before and after the axle flip?Â It seems to me, you would be increasing turbulence below the camper which increases the drag coefficient, and you are increasing the frontal area of the camper by 3 square feet.Â Aerodynamic drag is drag coefficient x frontal area.Â so if your increasing both, gas mileage would have to go down.Â I am just wondering how much.
> [snapback]109504[/snapback]​


Our mileage did not go down. The bottom of the trailer is now at the same height as the bottom of the truck where it was below before the axles were flipped. Common sense tells me there would be less turbulence as air going under the truck goes right under the trailer rather than hitting the front of the trailer down low and causing turbulence.

Just my .02's worth

Mike


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

biga,

I was very concerned with the MPG hit I was expecting when we did our axle flip, as our towing mileage is so bad to start with. After two trips with the flip - including mountains, flatlands, high winds, no wind, rain and shine - I see no change whatsoever in our MPG. Nada. Zilch. Zero!

In a related note, I also have detected no change in handling or stability.

As the kids say... It's all good!









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## NDJollyMon (Aug 22, 2003)

What are the dealers charging for an axle flip these days?


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Our local Outback dealer wanted $400 to do the 28RS-DS. I shopped around and found another outlet that did both axles for $300 (and did a great job!).

I have heard of prices down around $250 on the East coast, but I could not match that in our little corner of paradise.

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## NDJollyMon (Aug 22, 2003)

Doug...
How much higher is the unit, and what other mods did you need to do because of it? (ie...new steps?)


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Pete,

The Outback now sits 4-5" higher than before. I have not done any mods, other than get a little foldng step that sits on the ground below the front door (2 steps). The rear door (3 steps) is perfect now.

There are a couple of other things...

The handles for the rear slide and latch bars are just enough higher that I do not get the leverage I used too. Before, the handles were a straight reach out. Now I am reaching up, so deploying the slide is not as easy.

The OEM stabilizers just barely touch the ground when fully extended, so now I need to put leveling blocks under each foot. I will probably mod to scissor jacks next winter.

The outside wet bar (also know as the outdoor kitchen) is now high enough that Shannon has to stand on a step to use it.

Even though the raise is only about five inches, when you walk up next to the trailer it seems about two feet higher!

Other than that, you would never know the difference.









Happy Trails,
Doug


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## NAturedog2 (Jan 29, 2007)

For those of you that have done this Flip yourself. Where did you get the ubolts and is there anything else you need? also how hard is this to do??? I am pretty handy and have access to a shop.

Russ


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Anytime you locate the axle under the spring, rather than on top of the spring like most manufacturers do, you are putting more stress on the spring/mounts in certain situations. BUT, the leaf springs are over engineered some so this shouldnt be a problem for most.

For those that have done an axle flip, be sure to pay attention to possible cracks in the leaf springs where the axle is mounted to them. This is where they crack first generally.

You will get more spring wrap in hard braking when the spring is over the axle. So be sure to check for craking where the loops are located at the end of the spring also.. And of course pay attantion to possible mount cracking or weld cracks at the mounts.

This guy is right.. It is safer to lower the leaf spring mounts, rather than locate the springs over the axles.. So yea, if you want to get nit-picky he is right..

The only way you possibly could see a problem with spring over, is being loaded to max, and getting yourself into a panic life or death, hard braking situation. OR getting into a severe sway situation, where you are about to lose control.. Or a combination of both of these.

If your springs are over your axle, the springs will have more leverage placed on them in either of these situations.. Plus the added height of the trailer will contribute to more stress placed on the springs/mounts at this rare time.. It is possible a spring/mount could fracture in this situation, causing you to lose control.

Not meaning to freak anyone out, or get any feathers ruffled, but this is just physics.. Manufacturers ALWAYS take the safe approach to everything, this is why they have resisted coming out with springs over axle from the factory for so many years..

The public is crying about this, so as usual, the MFR's will give in to there wishes, and come out with taller trailers.. Some may do axle flips, some may lower spring mounts.. Some may still ignore the publics opinion and just continue to take the safe approach, wheather the public likes it or not..

I have a lot of suspension experience, as I was involved as a partner in a 8 second 30 state touring dragster, and a western US. monster mud racing truck, when I was much younger.. We would travel the western US and put on intermission shows for monster truck events. I was the suspension guy for both of our race cars. Where we mounted our axles made huge differences under different circumstances.. It was amazing to see the carnage from different axle/spring mounting locations! lol

Again this is just physics all... Wheather you ever see a problem all depends on wheather you ever get yourself into one of these special circumstances.. For most it will never happen..

Carey


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## Scott and Jamie (Aug 27, 2006)

Just for everyones info many TT's come from the factory with the axel under the springs. The only reason why the "Roo Riser" is used is because the of the torque flex suspension on certain tt's. (no leaf springs). The Outback also sits about 6-10" lower than other "factory" trailers running the same size axels and tires so no worry about being to high with the axel flip.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Scott and Jamie said:


> Just for everyones info many TT's come from the factory with the axel under the springs. The only reason why the "Roo Riser" is used is because the of the torque flex suspension on certain tt's. (no leaf springs). The Outback also sits about 6-10" lower than other "factory" trailers running the same size axels and tires so no worry about being to high with the axel flip.


They do these days... They never used to..

Carey


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