# Front Roof Seal Deformed



## brentp (Feb 5, 2016)

We just picked up our new 210TRS yesterday. As part of check out, we noticed a very small water stain in the front ceiling light. Ceiling around light looked fine, a small wrinkle to the side. We noted this on our 'punch list', so it would be looked at. We could also see that the front and rear roof seams had new lap sealant recently applied (was told then it was done when they checked out the unit for delivery).

The next morning just before we left, the tech went on the roof and mentioned that likely the seams were resealed by the dealer as part of their pre-delivery check out to address the stain in the light, but would add more sealant "just to be safe". Sounded reasonable.

OK, we now start a 850 mile drive immediately after that. On filling the truck with gas with about 150 miles to go, I look up and can see that the seal had been "blown up" by the traveling wind.

When I went on the roof this morning, I found 3 spots, two of which were the new sealant just deformed by the wind. However, the 3rd spot was troubling. I did not have my cell with me to take a picture, so need to describe. This area was what appeared to be a 'slice' about 6 inches long, in the center of the 6" wide seal joint. It was clean through all sealant (both new and old) all the way to the wood roof decking right at the seam of the decking and the front face skin. This is directly above the front ceiling light where we saw the water stain. The lap sealant on the edge of the slice was moved upward, appearing as if air or movement of the roof push up from under the sealant to cause the 'slice". My first thought was exactly that, that wind from driving must somehow be getting under the front skin, riding up, and blow out the slice to exit there. But, I could not find where wind would be getting in or any other indications that this might be the case, so now doubt that as a possibility. I should also note that we took a bad road "bump" in the later part of the trip and the interior contents were displaced when we arrived home (they were OK at the 1/2 way point when we were last in there).

Anyway, anyone ever experience an issue like this in the front roof seam?

Can new lap sealant, if blown by wind, rip old sealant it is attached to?

If I reseal with lap sealant and let cure, how long should it cure before we take a road trip?

Should I remove all the lap sealant and then start fresh with a tape seal (Eternabond) over the joint?

Any other thoughts on what might be happening? Just want to make sure I get this addressed quickly and correctly. 

Thanks in advance


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## Leedek (Nov 28, 2010)

A spanking new trailer should not be having a roof ballooning while underway. I am not sure I would be applying more sealant to a roof that is not properly attached to the substrate. I watched a fellow RVer cut away 1/3 of his roof membrane and proceed to industrial grade adhesive the first foot into the remaining membrane. His was a new trailer also. He did the jury-rigged fix after talking with the dealer. He was lucky that a motorist flagged him while driving and told him his roof was a big balloon.

I don't know the end of that story but I bet he had a new rubber roof installed. There are a number of Youtube vids on the subject. 




Your warranty should take care of your problem. Even though you bought from a far away dealer you should be able to talk with a local dealer about warranty work. After all, you will be making multiple mods and need service for your Ourback for years to come. Your local dealer should welcome your business. Good luck.

Leigh


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

The roof needs to be rebonded but does not need to be replaced or significantly modified or damaged to complete the process. Depending on the size and location it can be accessed from the closest edge (in this case the front) or via injection through the roof membrane. A small hole is cut and contact cement is injected. A roller (like a rolling pin) is then used to push the adhesive away from the injection point. Use as many points as needed to apply to the entire loose area. Use eternabond tape to cover the injection points.


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## brentp (Feb 5, 2016)

Thanks guys. All this is good to know in case I need to do this myself. I should have been clearer that the roof membrane was still fairly well attached, just a small area near the open seam that will need to be re-bonded. What was displaced was just lap sealant (I think).

Given this is brand new, as recommended here and by the selling dealer, I now have an appointment with a local dealer to look/service. I want to make sure there is nothing structurally incorrect in this area as it is still troubling how the deep, fully through slice in the lap sealant happened and I'm sure it will happen again until the root cause is resolved.

Will update in a few weeks after the local dealer gives me their take on this. For now, just add more sealant I guess.


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## brentp (Feb 5, 2016)

OK, this is what I was told by the local dealer, . . .

There was a leak in the front right seam. This leak took place over a period of time and the roof substrate in that area is now compromised (soft/rotted). According to them, the selling dealer had to know of this prior to sale, and simply applied the ~6" wide lap sealant strip across the front roof seal, which we were told should not be that thick (or there at all?). They also indicated that the front fiberglass no longer has support in that area, has started to bow inward (buckle), and could be moved (deflected) by the wind when traveling (explains what we saw when we returned). I was able to verify much of what they have said after their inspections. I also believe they took the front inside trim off and took pictures as well as part of the inspection, which I have not yet seen.

Before anyone asks, we did inspect the unit at delivery, and only noticed the very slight staining in the front light. In retrospect, we did notice a wide strip of lap sealant, but that alone did not raise a flag (to me) as I did not know it shouldn't have been like that. Oh well, . . .

Anyway, they have recommended the rubber roof be removed, compromised luan, insulation, and ceiling be replaced, and then a new rubber roof be installed. They have filed for pre-authorization for the warranty work with Keystone. The estimated the work at over $6K!!! Most of that is labor. This evaluation/inspection cost $135. The other two closest authorized service centers refused to even take a look at this as it is their busy season. Next closest service center is ~ 100 miles away.

Well, at least it is good to know what is happening and is needed. However, . . . they said it is likely that Keystone will not want pay the full amount estimated as they expect dealers to subsidize the work (their words). As they are not the selling dealer, if we do proceed, we will be expected to pay the full bill when the work is completed and then they will reimburse us as payments from Keystone are made and it may not fully cover our cost.

Unfortunately, this all sounds like could be ugly and I suspect this will consume a lot of our time and energy to get this resolved. I called Keystone to at least get the details logged in. This sure takes a big chunk out of the 'fun' of getting our first camper. Funny thing is, we debated used and new, and one of the advantages we thought for new was a belief we would avoid surprises like this.

Selling dealer was Lakeshore RV in Michigan if any one wants to know for future reference.

Stay tuned, . . .


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

This sounds like a cash grab to me. You should not be out of pocket for this type of issue at all on a new trailer.

You have to get a second opinion and I would even recommend taking it back to the selling dealer. Start with a request for a replacement trailer based on the repair costs.

Do you have any pictures of the roof?


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## brentp (Feb 5, 2016)

Hey Andy, . . . I do agree 100% I should not be out of pocket, and in the end, I certainly hope not to be. 

Pretty sure the local dealer is not in this for a money grab, they were just being upfront on how the whole warranty process works and do not want to subsidize any warranty work. That said, I found out today that they submitted the pre-authorization paper work to Keystone and indicated to them that they do not want to do the repair work and recommended to Keystone that this goes back to the factory. Apparently, they believe that there could be additional damage once they open this up and don't want to tie up a service bay waiting on Keystone to authorize additional repair dollars.

I talked directly to Keystone after I found this out and they are telling me they are trying to decide how to proceed. What I haven't heard yet, is that they are going to take care of this! The selling dealer has gone a bit silent, although I have not pushed things yet from that perspective, as I am reluctant to go back to them knowing now that they have no problem covering up issues and selling defective units.

This is one of the picture the service center took which shows the wide Dicor strip on the front seam. The lines indicate where the Dicor was "sliced" when we got home from the 850 mile trip after picking up in Michigan. By this time, it was pushed back down to reseal and I temporarily covered with plastic/duct tape for 2 weeks waiting to get into to the service dealer to take a look.


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## MJV (Apr 19, 2012)

That looks like a very poor "patch up" Not acceptable on a new trailer. Think they should give you a replacement.


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## Tourdfox (Oct 4, 2012)

MJV said:


> That looks like a very poor "patch up" Not acceptable on a new trailer. Think they should give you a replacement.


Agree. That is a pathetic mess. My grandson 5 could do better. I would fight for a new one. Hope things work out for you.


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## SirCIII (Feb 18, 2016)

MJV said:


> That looks like a very poor "patch up" Not acceptable on a new trailer. Think they should give you a replacement.


Completely agree. Wow. They must have used the whole tube of dicor on that seam. Ridiculous. What shameful work. Crooks. They probably knew a newb wouldn't know what they are looking at and took advantage of that. Shameful business practice. I would be posting that picture all over the web along with your storyline. You may get a quicker and more productive response.

Also. Have you taken your trailer to another dealer or rv shop? I know it may be some distance but maybe worth it, especially if the shop you took it too knows they are the only game in the area. If anything it would be good to get a second opinion on the repairs. I say this because I have never heard of someone having to "pay up front" on manufacturers warranty work, which is what you have. Of course I have never had to experience this type of thing with RVs but I have with 2 previous cars... they did not charge up front nor charge me for any remaining balance, they said it was a loss write-off for them. Just some food for thought.

(on a side note. Is Lakeshore getting such great factory discounts due to volume ordering, or do they get the manufacturing miss-ups heavily discounted and do the repairs/patches in house? I have read about this type of sales tactic to stretch profits. This may explain why the warranty wouldn't fully be covering this defect.)


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## Tourdfox (Oct 4, 2012)

When I seen this topic that was one of my first thoughts. Thinking the unit may have been a seconds from the factory. Wouldn't be the least bit surprised.


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## Stumpy75 (Feb 26, 2014)

So far, I don't think the trailer I bought is a second. But I agree that the patch job that was done is terrible, and that you should get an entire new trailer, not just a repair job...


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## brentp (Feb 5, 2016)

SirCIII said:


> They must have used the whole tube of dicor on that seam.


Or maybe two or three!

Makes me wonder too on the "2nds" comment. I would think they would need to disclose that, but do not know Michigan law, . . . the purchase agreement says "new" - not that that matters. Honestly, I really think it might be simply neglect on Lakeshore's part. While there, walking around at night, there were a lot of Outback trailers out back that the tongue jack was sunk in the mud and some the jacks had failed completely and the trailer was resting on it tongue. Didn't seam like they cared.

OK, the latest update is a bit more promising. Keystone, so far, has step up to the plate (still hoping for a home run from them). After all this, they took it upon themselves to go find a dealer to do the service. They ran into the same issue I did in the New England area, couldn't find anyone within 100 miles or so that would do it. However, they did find one ~ 300 miles away that they talked to that would do the repairs and ask if we would be willing to entertain that and drive the trailer out.

After looking up the dealer and their reviews, they appear to be very well respected and liked by their customers. While I wish a shop could have been found closer, I am happy that a shop has been found at all as there was also some discussion on a factory return for the repair and this is a lot closer. They also are telling me that they will "expedite" the authorizations and parts needed to complete the repairs to try to minimize the down time. So, off to PA to drop this off next Monday. Just hope it is weeks and not months before I see this again.

Stay tuned, . . .

And, not that it matters too much, but the local service dealer was completely upfront with their policy on how they deal with warranty work on non-sold units. They even had their policy on the wall next to the service counter (photo attached). I am surprised more folks haven't run into this, . . . maybe it is a local thing as shop rates are really high around here. While I would like it to be different, the reality is it is their business and they must feel that policy is what is best for their business. I guess my decision is whether or not to give them future business.

Honestly, I think this goes back to the manufacturer - they either need to compensate service centers appropriately or have service centers listed as authorized that agree to do work under their payment models. Apparently they only want to pay a fixed amount, but still allow service centers to make a choice whether to perform the work or not. Most service centers around us simply said no, we are doing service under warranty on a unit bought elsewhere as we are too busy right now. At least this center said they would take a look, but was clear on the payment model. I did say to the Keystone call center person I am working with that there appears to be an issue here, and while he did not comment, the impression was that they know as he struggled too to find a local center. Supposedly, they even had someone from Keystone call the local service manager to try to get him to change his mind. Oh well, if Keystone wants happy customers, eventually they will have to make changes I am guessing.


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## brentp (Feb 5, 2016)

Just a quick update, drove the Trailer to PA yesterday to drop off for repair, . . . the 'slice' reappeared (not surprising, this was first time driving on a interstate since the pick up from MI).

Got a picture of the slice this time. More of the roof bond had been broken and it could be lifted more. More scary, my wife was able to see this from the truck's side mirror as we were driving. I guess we are fortunate we did not have a blow off on these interstate trips. Looking closely, the "slice" appears to be a real slice through the membrane that was then simply covered with Dicor.

Will continue to post updates at this progresses.


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## Pcsullivan (Aug 16, 2015)

When do you get tp ick it "repaired"??


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

The repair is to remove the heavy caulk layer around the damage and apply glue under the roof membrane then eterna bond tape on top of the membrane where the slit is then re caulk.

Looking forward to the progress and finished repair.


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## brentp (Feb 5, 2016)

Pick up is still TBD - repair dealer to; evaluate, fill warranty work with Keystone, get approval & parts, repair, repeat if more damage is found.

Some of the roof underlayment and a ceiling panel were damaged by water while at the sales dealer, so we expect that they will be replaced as well.


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## Pcsullivan (Aug 16, 2015)

I would get some type of document that warranties the repair also.


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## SirCIII (Feb 18, 2016)

brentp said:


> Some of the roof underlayment and a ceiling panel were damaged by water while at the sales dealer, so we expect that they will be replaced as well.


I wouldn't expect or assume anything. At this stage, personally, I would just be as strait forward as possible. Ask the repair shop and/or keystone service person you are dealing with if those specific areas are going to be replaced/repaired. Otherwise you just might find that if someone is given an option (or has lack of direction) they will usually take the easy way, not necessarily the right way. Not trying to be a pessimist here but you did just spend allot of money on something you hope to give you years and years of enjoyment... and new (worry-free) as well. This is the time to "leave no stone unturned" since it is already at an approved shop.


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## brentp (Feb 5, 2016)

SirCIII said:


> brentp said:
> 
> 
> > Some of the roof underlayment and a ceiling panel were damaged by water while at the sales dealer, so we expect that they will be replaced as well.
> ...


Yup, agree totally and we are staying on top of this. At the time I wrote this, we didn't have the current repair dealer's "to be fixed" list yet. We do now and the panels are there, along with a few parts we weren't expecting (were not on the first repair dealer's fix list). Next up, Keystone's approval and parts shipment, which I have a verbal commitment they will expedite - we'll see.

We do appreciate the suggestions, as this is our first time through this.


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## brentp (Feb 5, 2016)

OK, thought I would provide the final update and close on this issue. We got back from picking up our camper earlier in the week, . . . almost 13 weeks after we took the initial delivery and ~8 weeks after dropping off at the repair dealer. The repairs took a little over a week once all the parts were received, which took some time as the first shipment was missing 2 key parts and a reorder was required.

Workmanship looks very good to us, and the repair dealer, Tom Schaeffer's in Shoemakersville, PA, was great to work with. Other than 2 - 700+ mile round trips for drop off and pick up, it was quite painless. Keystone also stepped up and this was 100% covered under warranty. Anyway, we can start camping now!

I will attach a picture of the repaired seam later if allowed. It appears the website right now is not allowing attachments. I am assuming that a 'new' good seam looks similar to this.


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## Leedek (Nov 28, 2010)

brentp said:


> Workmanship looks very good to us, and the repair dealer, Tom Schaeffer's in Shoemakersville, PA, was great to work with.


A big hand then to Tom Schaeffer's RV. The forum has other good RV places noted so... http://www.tomschaeffers.com/

:thumbup: :clapping: :yeah:


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Was it a full membrane replacement in the end? Did they have to replace any of the roof panels?


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## brentp (Feb 5, 2016)

Yes, they did a full roof membrane replacement. Some of the additional items replaced were; one (front) roof panel, one (front) ceiling panel, roof transition molding (which you can see now), and a few other smaller things. The other 'big' item replaced was the front 'fibron' panel. This was not listed by the first repair center as needed - but apparently this service center felt this was compromised as well. It did have an indentation near the transition molding where the slice was.

Was up on the roof yesterday installing a Maxxair deluxe fan above the kitchen, and looked at all their joints, . . . they did very very nice work. Only hope mine around the new fan is as good as theirs 

Here is the picture of the repaired front seam now that I am able to upload.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Looks nice. the seam is more like it should be and since they replaced the front cap then they did do a complete job. If Keystone ponied up 100% then that is really great.


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