# Dodge Ram 2500



## outbackmac (Feb 1, 2005)

I am lookin for fellow outbackers that might be towing 5th wheels with a dodge 2500 ctd 3.7 rear axles. Iam lookin at a 5er with a hitch weight of 1900lbs and a dry weight of 11,000 anyone help.

Ps 8 ft bed 4x4


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## jozway (Jan 28, 2008)

I towed a 37 foot Sandpiper sport toy hauler with a slide and was probably over that weight easily and had no problem. It actually towed way better then my current trailer. Fifth wheels tow way nicer. You shouldnt have any problem.


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

I put 7k miles on my Dad's rig a few years back. Sundance 5'er and Dodge 2500 Short bed with the 5.9L C. When loaded the truck would squat a little, but I suspect it was right at the max payload. Check your payload (using 20-25% of GVWR of the trailer) and then add airbags or helper springs to "upgrade" it to a 3500 and I'm sure you'll be fine.

Dry weight of 11k. Sounds like someone is looking to upgrade just a tad!


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## huntr70 (Jul 8, 2005)

I tow with a short bed..........

Just remember that the pin weight is an estimate, and you will end up higher. All the storage in a fiver is in the front (pass thru basement)and add the propane tanks, etc.

That said, throw on airbags or Timbrens (what I use) and you will be fine. It sounds as though whatever you are looking at is still within the capacity of a 2500.

Steve


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## outbackmac (Feb 1, 2005)

Air bags not sure what were talking about? do these go on the springs or on the hitch


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## sunnybrook29 (Oct 7, 2009)

As your truck is 4x4 you will want to check the height of the bed. Is there enough clearance between the bed rails and the trailer?


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## Joonbee (Jan 18, 2008)

outbackmac said:


> Air bags not sure what were talking about? do these go on the springs or on the hitch


These are what they are talking about Load lifter 5000 at least this is one kind.

Also try these. Maxloader Spring System They are what I will probably go to if I get that toyhauler I have been eyeballin

You should also be fine as a 4x4. I have an 1 1/2" lift in the rear of mine and I have room. Of course chevys are lower anyway, so I am up as high as the rest now.

Good luck. Jim


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## CTDOutback06 (Apr 16, 2007)

Jerry, I towed the Sandpiper home, 39'4", 11,000 lbs, 2,150 hitch weight with no problems with a 2006 Ram 2500 CTD 4X4 short bed. If we were going to tow it around all the time I would put air bags on but you should have no problem at all. The other Carey (the guy who hauls campers for a living) said it's cheaper and easier to go the air bag route.

Carey


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## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

Texas Outbackers with 3/4 ton Dodge CTD's:
Herkdoctor tows a KZ Durango 3556PX4 with a 3/4 ton CTD. 2k on the hitch, 10.7 uvw. 
Proffsionl tows a huge Open Range 5 slide 5'er with his 3/4 ton Dodge. 2k on the hitch. 11k uvw.
Bradnbecca They tow an awesomely customized Montana with theirs that they have maxed out on frame weight.

-CC


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

Air bags, extra springs, etc, etc does not change the sticker on the door panel of your rig. Those things might enhance your ridability, but they don't do squat to change the legal issues.

You need to be within the manufacturer's stated weight limits, so check the sticker and do the cipher'n. If you don't have a 4x4, which adds about 700 pounds to the pickup, then you might be ok. If you have a dually, then you're probably ok (as far as hitch weight goes). The only way to know for sure is to go to a scale and see what each actual of your tv weighs, then figure out the weights. When you weigh the vehicle you should have it loaded the way you would expect to have it loaded when you are towing -- that includes all the pax, hitch, full fuel tanks, etc.


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## Lmbevard (Mar 18, 2006)

sunnybrook29 said:


> As your truck is 4x4 you will want to check the height of the bed. Is there enough clearance between the bed rails and the trailer?


I tow with a Ram 3500 4X4 with no problem with clearance (except when the front of the TV goes over the edge of the hill!). Not sure of the difference between the GVW of the 2500 and the 3500, but my TV only scwats a little with my fully loaded 30' 5er and when I say fully loaded I mean with full tank of water, full propane tanks and the under storage full to the top with craft supplies and more on the inside. Pulls super even in a 3/4 cross wind. the important part is that the camper is set up right to match the truck. My dealer did a great job with that.


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Lmbevard said:


> As your truck is 4x4 you will want to check the height of the bed. Is there enough clearance between the bed rails and the trailer?


I tow with a Ram 3500 4X4 with no problem with clearance (except when the front of the TV goes over the edge of the hill!). Not sure of the difference between the GVW of the 2500 and the 3500, but my TV only scwats a little with my fully loaded 30' 5er and when I say fully loaded I mean with full tank of water, full propane tanks and the under storage full to the top with craft supplies and more on the inside. Pulls super even in a 3/4 cross wind. the important part is that the camper is set up right to match the truck. My dealer did a great job with that.
[/quote]
Any clue what your pin weight is and are you on your helper springs? That may help the OP.

I beleive my quoted pin weight is around 1900 (with a quoted dry weight of 10,500). I'm guessing it's more when loaded, but I can tell you I drop nicely onto the helper springs with my F350. I beleive that spring is the main difference between the 1 ton and 3/4 ton and if I didn't have that the truck would be squatting.

As for the contentious issue on GVWR, Carey has explained how the commercial rigs are checked and it had nothing to do with GVWR. In MI, I only have to certify meeting the GVWR for a "commercial vehicle" of which mine is not. I wouldn't hesitate to mod a 3/4 ton to a 1 ton if I already owned the 3/4. I bought a 1 ton from the start since the difference was ~$600 in MSRP and there's no cheaper way of getting that extra hardware.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Yes we all here the stories of being sued, and ticketed for being over GVWR..

Show the ticket or law suit.

Its all internet hype.

If a rig is fairly level and is safely negotiating the roadway cops or the law could care a less.

Carey


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

My advice would be to spend a $100 and get a legal opinion from a real lawyer on the subject. You are right in that you can search all over and not find anything about a lawsuit involving weight -- probably (aka, prolly) because it is settled out of court and never sees the light of day.

Here is what one lawyer said "One of the smartest things we did was speak to our attorney before making a purchase. He informed us that exceeding any of the weight ratings of the RV or the tow vehicle was nothing more than a negligence lawsuit waiting to happen. If it's proven that you exceeded the manufacturer's ratings in any way, it can easily be argued that constitutes negligence on your part in the event of an accident. That can lead to problems ranging from very large settlement amounts to even the possibility of your insurance company refusing to pay the claim due to the negligence on your part. Simply put, don't exceed these weights under any circumstances."

Can we trust the above excerpt? Who knows? Heck, it's on the internet! Can you trust anything on the internet? Probably not, but is anyone willing to take that risk without further checking out what their potential risk (ruin) might be and satisfying themselves that they are squeaky clean legal?

Sooooo, if you choose not to seek the advice of a lawyer and you blindly proceed down a path based on the advice of a laymen, I believe, you are doing so at your own peril.

If you are within your legal stickered weight limits, then you can sleep well at night. If you aren't, then you have simply rationalized yourself into that position. I have researched this issue a lot and there is no definitive answer either way.

Ask a lawyer. See what he says. I would be very interested in seeing his written response, since I really don't know the answer.

There is no question it is a very gray area. Show me proof that you can pull outside the stickered weight limits. Show me proof that it is only a recommendation. The answer, either way, simply isn't readily available, so, I'm going to error on the side of conservative. 'nough said.....


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## clarkely (Sep 15, 2008)

vdub said:


> My advice would be to spend a $100 and get a legal opinion from a real lawyer on the subject. You are right in that you can search all over and not find anything about a lawsuit involving weight -- probably (aka, prolly) because it is settled out of court and never sees the light of day.
> 
> Here is what one lawyer said "One of the smartest things we did was speak to our attorney before making a purchase. He informed us that exceeding any of the weight ratings of the RV or the tow vehicle was nothing more than a negligence lawsuit waiting to happen. If it's proven that you exceeded the manufacturer's ratings in any way, it can easily be argued that constitutes negligence on your part in the event of an accident. That can lead to problems ranging from very large settlement amounts to even the possibility of your insurance company refusing to pay the claim due to the negligence on your part. Simply put, don't exceed these weights under any circumstances."
> 
> ...


Sorry if this all went off topic outbackmac

Lawyers base their opinions on what the law says or by what precedence has been set by previous cases, i would suggest the best bet is to stay with in "manufacturer" ratings or close to it. That being said ......... a Toyota Sequoia is rated at 9600 lbs towing LOL

I would say that you also need to "scale it" so you know where you really are, spend an hour at the scale and check everything, see what moving this or that does to tongue wight, (with a trailer) see what different settings do to TV axle weights.

Getting on the scale answers a lot of questions and helps immensely in knowing where your set up is.


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## outbackmac (Feb 1, 2005)

No problem. I knew when i posted this topic some would go off on a tangent. All i was looking for was what some other fellow outbackers might towing with similar 5ers.

As for Lawyers there are 2 kinds 1 that already has his hands in you;re pockets and the other is 1 lloking to get his hands in youre pockets.

If we all went strickly on limitations of our trucks most would not be camping at all.

Here is what iam leaning towards Yes i will be over the gcvw (20,000lbs) when i have all 4 of us in the truck which will only happen 1 or 2 times a year. The rest of the time i will be close to the max. As far as that goes my trucks gvw is 9000lbs so if i have 5 people in my truck and anything at all in my bed i will be pushing the gvw.


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

Like Clarkely said.... You got to get it on scales and go with whatever makes you comfortable. I seriously doubt you will find a law that states reality one way or the other, but I do encourage you get it on a scale. Sometimes the actual weights will really surprise you.


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## sunnybrook29 (Oct 7, 2009)

In Florida you go down to your friendly tag office and tell them how much that you want in weight on your pick up truck registration, 25,999 lbs max. That takes care of the State and the overweight problem. But yes , if you run over a school bus load of kids and you exceed what the manufacturer said was safe you are then liable , personally for the suit to follow. That is common sense , any time you do something that the builder says in unsafe you do so at your own risk. I am retired from the auto insurance claims industry and ever so often an insurance company will find a way to back out of a claim. Rightfully so , if not we all would be doing crazy things .There are several other ways also !
That said, I will say that thousands of us , daily do many things that would scare the heck out of the underwriter !


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Again, show me. Yep Prolly< aka probably you cant do.

Im overweight most every trip on my gvw. I roll right thru the scales and knowbody could care less.

I can tell you its all about axle ratings. If you are in a wreck and are within axle and tire ratings no insurance company will ever dispute it and a lawyer will have no case.

Your few pounds over your gvwr is never going to an issue. Just stay within tire ratings and all will be well.

Just guessing, your 3/4 ton has a 6000lb rear axle rating and a 4800lb front axle rating. Keep the truck weight to around 10500lbs and all will be just fine.

My dually weighs around 14000lbs often. I have a 9250 rear axle rating and a 5200 front axle rating. 14000lbs is a totally legal weight for my truck to weigh.

Again, show me and I'll beleive it. Lets hear the stories... Yeah.... Aint none.

Carey


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## outbackmac (Feb 1, 2005)

I know i might be a pain but i dont want to make a mistake that will cost me down the road.

Where will i find the total weight allowed on my rear springs? tires are rated 3195lbs @ 80psi i already have 2900lbs on the rear axle.

here is my case truck weighs 7500lbs with me so i add 3 passengers(adults) 550lbs which puts me at 8050lbs then add the pin weight of trailer 2000lbs and now iam at 10,050 which is 1050 over my gvw. this case will only happen 2 times a year as my boys are not able to go all the time. so if i take 10,050 add the trailer of 11,000 plus camping equipment trailer might be 11,700 guessing total 21,750lbs which is 750lbs over gcvw. as i said this would be the rare occasion.

I will add helper springs or air bags to the rear and YES i know this will not make my truck a 1TON.

so in closing

1) how many would go with this set up? 
2) What would the wear and tear on my truck be?

All the above weights are from the book and best guess on my part.

Also if you go strickly by the bible with 8050 in my truck iam pushing the upper limits of my truck, if thats the case then these trucks no more than a passenger car


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## sunnybrook29 (Oct 7, 2009)

In my experience Carey is 99.999% corect. You will drive all your life and never have a weight problem . I am over the value that Dodge puts on my truck most of the time.
Now I will say that I personally know of two cases where lite trucks were found liable for accidents "caused' by exceeding the manuf.weight limits . The one I was involved in was a Ford 350 with a wrecker body on in Dade County { Miami }. The truck was towing a wrecked ambulance and collided with a school bus . Law suits by the hundreds, did they win or lose , I do not remember but the lawsuit broke every one involved !
On the Florida turnpike a PU with a Lance camper rolled causing several vehicles to wreck including killing a bus driver in one of them European buses where the driver is right down at traffic level. The State and insurance companies maintained that camper truck was rolled because he was overloaded. Of course the other side said not so ! Who won ? That was not my job, man , and it takes years and years to get thru the system.
Overweight is not a very large concern to RVers, unless you do damage. I did not worry about it then and I do not worry about it now, I drove "Hot Shot" rigs for several years with a Dodge 3500 and we argued in every truck stop, ain't no easy answer!


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Your weak link is the transmission. Be sure it has excellent cooling. Your axle ratings should be posted on your vin sticker on the door. The rear differential is the same as a dually. Your axle ratings are pretty close to the tire rating.

I would add the air bags and enjoy whatever rv you like. As you already see, most any single tire pickup, be it 1 ton or 3/4 is pushing or over the gvwr limits when towing most any 5er.

Sorry your post got weight policed Mac... I'll add some more fuel to the weight police's fire.. heheee.. lol

To add to the guy flipped out about weights and lawyers.

You do know most every police car and many fire trucks are over there gvwr. Ambulances and small brush type fire trucks are grossly over the gvwr.

Most every commercial vehicle on the roadway is also grossly over there gvwr.

Semis have a combined gross rating of 80,000lbs. CGVWR. All that has to be done is buy a permit and any semi can weigh up to 250,000lbs with the proper trailer combination.

In Canada the normal semi configuration is 155,000 instead of our 80,000lbs. They use the same semi truck as we do. Yes canadians are smart. They pay 1/2 the shipping costs we do.

Next time you go ride in an ambulance rememeber you are in a vehicle that is over there gvwr by several thousand pounds.

For some reason rv'ers get all flipped out over weight ratings. This ends up costing them 1000's of dollars trying to stay within there ratings.

In this world if you would like to own an rv that is over 30 feet or so, you are going to be pushing the gvw limits of any vehicle. For some reason they say you are going to be ticketed and sued. They get all flipped out about it. I can tell you one thing. Cops and the law are out ticketing commercial vehicles for weight. Not over the capabilities of the vehicles though. They ticket people because they are improperly licensed in one way or the other.

Cops could care a less about a family enjoying there rv as long as it appears roadworthy.

Yes use gvwr and gcvwr as guides. But thats all it is... A guide.

Tell your lawyer to sue the world. Have him sue the police dept, fire dept, and ambulances too. They are some of the worst law breakers....

The internet weight police makes me laugh more than some of the best jokes Ive ever seen.. Kinda reminds me of some of these green groups... Boy they hate me. I spent $25000 dollars in diesel last year.. Yeah I burn about a 55 gallon barrell of diesel everyday. Im about as green as they get...

If a guy goes over there gvwr by 1500lbs a few times a year who really cares.. As long as the tire and axle ratings are respected they will be as safe as the police car that pulls em over for speeding..

I hope this post can get back to how a guy can safely go over his gvwr using helper springs or other known products... Oh yea... ambulances fire trucks and even some police cars have helper springs added so they can break the gvwr law...

Lawyers are trained to sue for anything, so who really cares anyway. Hell if your headlights are dirty and you run into a car, you could even be sued for that. Enjoy life! Enjoy the rv you like and just respect your tire and axle ratings. If you do this, you will be as safe as any other vehicle on the roadway. Who cares about being sued anway. One can be sued for anything why worry?

Your better off being a defensive driver that than worrying about your gvwr anyway, cause if you tow a decent sized rv you are going to be at or over the gvwr like it or not.

Carey


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## sunnybrook29 (Oct 7, 2009)

I had my 13 yr old nephew with me while driving thru Cairo Georgia and we saw the weight police had a dump truck pulled over and the officer had his portable scales out. A very large police officer and a very large truck driver. 
My nephew said , "what did he pull him over for ", I replied "cause he is overweight". My nephew, a large kid , immediately replied ," Naw, that would be against the law, the officer is as fat as the driver" he thought for a second and then said" Oh you mean the truck". You had to be there but we laughed all the way to Alabama. 
Carey is correct, when a lot of money is involved you can and will sue everybody . Will ya win , who knows. I worked in the salvage side and many times we would have to hold a truck or auto for years and years until until the lawsuits got done. There are a lot more dangerous things out there than an RV, like maybe a teenager texting while trying to lite a cigarette in their daddy's Corvette .


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## jozway (Jan 28, 2008)

I towed with the same setup and would do it again. My trailer when loaded was heavier than your's will be. Towing a fifth wheel is way beter than a bumper pull. Your truck will tow it like nothing. Carey's right that tyhe only thing to really worry about is the tranny. If you get a billet convertor you wont even have to worry about that. I say tow it and have fun.


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## huntr70 (Jul 8, 2005)

Hook it up and pull it............

No worries.


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

outbackmac said:


> I know i might be a pain but i dont want to make a mistake that will cost me down the road.
> 
> Where will i find the total weight allowed on my rear springs? tires are rated 3195lbs @ 80psi i already have 2900lbs on the rear axle.
> 
> ...


Upgrade the springs, and you're truck is a 1 ton. Don't expect any worse wear on anything than any other 1 ton Dodge. So, what are the rules of thumb for those? I think they say 150-200k for trans repair and 350-500k for engine. Obviously wear components in the suspension and brakes will wear faster, but just keep it maintained and you're all set!


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Good words Nathan and Huntr70..

Funny story sunnybrook. Kids crack me up.

I got to haul a 38 foot Big Horn to Red Deer, Ab. Its totally loaded. msrp 95k.. I will be 13000+ gvwr. My truck says 12200 on the sticker.









Over my gvwr I go again... lol









Carey


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## Joonbee (Jan 18, 2008)

I agree with the gang (Huntr, Nathan, Carey).

True scale numbers:
GAWR Front 4860-4760= 100lbs
GAWR Rear 6084-3360= 2724lbs

No trailer, full of 75gal fuel(50 in bed) and 300lb front bumper: 8120lbs add maybe 300lbs after family in, so: 8420lbs
GVWR 9200-8420=780lb left for tonque weight. NOT!! and I have a fairly light 5er.

Trailer on:

GAWR Front 4860-4780=80lbs yes loaded only added 20lb to the front axle
GAWR Rear 6084-5200=884lbs 5200-3360=1840lbs ACTUAL tonque weight
Dealer spec is 1560, pretty close given what I have in front storage
Front+Rear = 4780+5200=9980lbs
GVWR 9200-9980= (780)lbs over weight (guess I am part of your club Carey)

GCWR 22000-17360(add 500lbs for food and clothes)17860=4140lbs (under weight)
Tire rating 3640ea @ 80psi x2 rear tires=7280-5200=2080lbs (under weight)

Trailer weight 17360-8120=9240lbs dealer spec is 9900 (I believe), plus food and clothes, I am right at trailer max.

So, If I calculated right I am at the trailer max, over GVW and under the tire, GAW rear and GCWR. I can hardly tell the trailer is back there. No problem starting, stopping or handling. 1 over and 3 under!

Only mods to suspension is leveling kit for front, Bilstein shocks and an 1.5" add a leaf in the rear to make it level when towing. Didn't like it a little nose up after dealer installed leveling kit.

Hoping to go to a toyhauler soon with a 2500lb tonque and depending on model 11k - 13k empty weight. Gonna add maxloader springs, maybe bags for stability and go for it.

You are well within your safe means in my opinion, but this is what my numbers look like "crunched on a scale".

OVER on 1 and under 3. I think its safe.

Good luck, Jim

Not to skip out on your original question. As I said in my initial post, if you feel you need more. Look at Maxloader spring system and maybe bags for stability. Only my opinion and I know it does not add to the factory numbers, but if you feel you need more, it will add to YOUR numbers.


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## CTDOutback06 (Apr 16, 2007)

Way to go Jerry, you really got 'em all stirred up this time didn't ya!!?? LOL!! I would take the other Carey's (Colorado Dirt Biker) advice, he helped me out a lot when we were looking at the Sandpiper. I think he said it best when he said your tranny would be the weak link, it'll hunt gears some on the hills, mine does even when we had the Outback it did when we went to Nascar races in the south and such, other than that you are gonna be fine and love towing the 5er much better than the TT.


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## outbackmac (Feb 1, 2005)

Been out shopping today and here is what i found out. To get total weight of both truck and trailer pull them on a scale and this is total weight, correct? So why are we adding pin weight to both truck and trailer? i was told by a scale operator that this is how they would determine if ur overweight, for insurance purposes.


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## huntr70 (Jul 8, 2005)

You shouldn't be adding the pin weight to both.

If your total trailer weight is 9500 lbs, and your pin weight is 2000 lbs, then you add the weight of your truck and 9500 lbs for total combined weight.

If your truck is rated at 9200 lbs GVW, then you add the weight of your truck (+/- 7000 lbs) and the pin weight (2000 lbs).

If you are going after the total combined weight, you add the total truck weight and total trailer weight. Pin weight is only used to calculate payload on the truck for total GVW.

Confused yet??









Steve


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

I guess I would be labeled as the weight police, weight nazi, etc, etc.

The bottom line is that you won't find anything definite (or at least no one has shown me) where you can or can't exceed the certified weight limits of your vehicle. It is a very gray area and has been argued ad nauseum on this forum and many others.

I would love to see something that says I can safely, legally, and without fear of being held criminally or civilly liable for an accident where weight may have been a contributing factor. If someone could show me that, I would be towing a bigger rv.

Also, I wouldn't be taking the word of an "internet expert" to make the decision. You have to make the decision yourself. You have to be satisfied with whatever decision you make and be comfortable with whatever risks and potential damages it may incur. If you were overweight (whatever that may be) and you did get in an accident, I seriously doubt that you could point to this forum as credible evidence that someone told you it was ok.

Some links I have found that sort of dance around the issue are below. All of these are from CFR 49. Are they recommendations or law? Heck, I don't know. I'm not a lawyer. Do they make me stop and give pause to some of the decisions I'm going to make? Yeap, sure do. Your mileage may vary. For me, I stay within my weight limits. I do absolutely everything possible to make sure I am pulling safely and legally. Until I see something that conclusively states otherwise, I will continue to do so. Apparently, I am in the minority, but I also sleep well at night.

CFR 49 on Tire Loading
CFR 49 on Certification
Overloaded RV's (see section 8, i.e., you are on your own)

The last url is kind of interesting in that it basically telling you that if you exceed certified limits, then you are on your own. Good Luck!


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## outbackmac (Feb 1, 2005)

If we are lead to believe the manufactured ratings then why are the rear axles rated at 5200 and the front 6000 which is 11,000 but they tell you 9000lbs.


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

Hard to say... I certainly don't have the expertise or engineering degree to argue it.... Maybe someone on the forum does have those kinds of credentials. Any ME's out there?

For that matter, why do my rear tires say I can drop 3k pounds on each? 6k pounds on the axle? I don't think so.


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## clarkely (Sep 15, 2008)

vdub said:


> I would love to see something that says I can safely, legally, and without fear of being held criminally or civilly liable for an accident where weight may have been a contributing factor.


When you wake up in the morning......... someone can find you liable for something!

Just about everything one does in a daily routine .....someone can sue you for.....

Hook it up and have fun, be smart and responsible.


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## vtxbud (Apr 4, 2009)

When you wake up in the morning......... someone can find you liable for something!

Just about everything one does in a daily routine .....someone can sue you for.....

Hook it up and have fun, be smart and responsible.
[/quote]

X2... OUTBACKMAC, good on you for asking !

I have been in Law Enforcement for 29 years.

Lawyers have two favorite sayings... 50% will say " You are being Sued". The other 50% will say " Go ahead, you don't have a Case".

What will get you sued ?? Driving like an idiot and hurting/killing someone. Driving Impaired by alcohol or drug. Running from the Police and hurting/killing someone. Lets face it...any driving violation where someone gets hurt/killed due to your actions/inattention/carelessness.

Having investigated many, many collisions, injury collisions and fatal collisions most times the causes were as listed above.

Really folks, stop frettin' about being a few hundred lbs over the door sticker. If that weight were dead accurate, your vehicle would collapse the second you went over.

Do BE CONCERNED about the condition of your brakes, your speed and your driving attitude and skill level.

I have to give my head a shake when I read comments from folks that think nothing of blowing down the highway at 70-80 M.P.H. pulling a trailer ( lets see now...exceeding speed rating of trailer tires, exceeding Posted speed limits, trailer or no trailer) but will sweat bullets about being sued/charged/arrested for exceeding the Manufacturers weight rating by a small amount. Do be concerned about the weight rating/speed rating of your tires. Those are the numbers I really watch.

Bottom line here is Use COMMON SENSE and DRIVE DECENT...TWO GREAT WAYS TO AVOID GETTING SUED / CHARGED / ARRESTED !!!


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Ok, I never wanted to do this vdub, but here goes and Im sorry cause this is gonna hurt your feelings. Even YOU are almost over weight and quite possibly are overweight. Your truck has a GVWR of 90000lbs. It has a GCVWR of 20,000lbs.

THIS MEANS that you can only tow a trailer with a GVWR rating of 11000 lbs or less. So to be under mfr ratings your combined gvwr stickers of both vehicles in combo cant exceed 20000lbs. I figure your outback has a 10000 lb GVWR sticker on it, but I may be wrong. If it has a 12000 lb GVWR sticker on it you are overweight. 12000 + 9000 is 21000. That number exceeds the mfr GCVWR of your vehicle which is 20000 lbs.

One thing people dont know is GCVWR means RATINGS not ACTUAL WEIGHT. SO your combination cannot exceed the RATINGS added together to fall within mfr specs.

TECHNICALLY there is no actual CGVWR allowance on a sticker for a vehicle or even in a book. This is done by licensing and axle limits. YES this even goes for your combo vdub. GVW or CGVW are actual weights. Do you see any stickers that show ACTUAL GVW allowances on your rig? NO YOU DONT. This is done by axle weight limits on the sticker, (GAWR) wheel limits and tire limits, AND licensing. The ACTUAL weight your vehicle can legally carry is what the axle limit allowances are. (GAWR)

This is what the MFR's do to protect themselves. They dont care what your trailer weighs. They only care about the GVWR sticker on it. If that number causes you to exceed your GCWR then they are allowed to void the warranty if theyd like. They only use RATINGS!

GCWR is NOT the weight your vehicle is allowed to weigh. Its the weight the two vehicles can way on its stickers and still be warrantied if the two vehicles fall under GCWR.

VDUB have you weighed your trailer. Pull it on a scale and unhook it. What does it weigh? I have never seen a retired person that full times have a trailer that weighs under its GVWR. They are all over there GVWR for the trailer because they live in it. BUT few are over there axle ratings and tire ratings. YES they are legal because they are under the ACTUAL GVW of the vehicle.

Whats the actual weight of your trailer VDUB?

There is no clear cut law. I done some quick searching for an answer that can be understood better than mine. When I get home, I will give you the actual federal law. I think these answers are from actual federal law. FMSCA mirrors FMVSS, so commercial is the same as private when it comes to weights. This guys explains it better than stupid me..

Here are a few snips for ya.

This the legal requiremnets for gvwr on commercial vehicles.

The maximum GVWR of the vehicle is the sum of the GAWRs. A truck with an 8,000-pound front GAWR and a 20,000-pound rear GAWR with have a GVWR of 28,000 pounds. The GVWR of a truck may be set lower than the total of the axle ratings to meet legal requirements. The maximum a heavy truck can weigh without special permits on U.S. highways is 80,000 pounds. In most states, a truck over 26,000 pounds requires a commercial driver's license. All trucks will have a placard or sticker listing the GVWR and front and rear GAWRs. The placard is usually in the door frame or just inside the cab.

Here is a question I found with a great answer. 
HI,if truck GVWR is 9000lb and GCWR is 20.000lb,does that mean the heaviest trailer i can pull is GVWR 11.000lb? Can I increase my GCWR by buying different plates?Why there are many hot shot duallys pulling way over manufacturers GCWR?

Answer,

The Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) imposes certain regulations on all single or combination-unit trucks (used in interstate commerce) that have a Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) of more than 10,000 lbs. Additional regulations are imposed on all motor vehicles with a CGVWR of more than 26,000 lbs.

So first of all, let me be sure we're talking about the same thing and we understand the terms the same way. The GCWR, as listed by the manufacturer, shouldn't be confused to being the same as CGVWR which is the sum both vehicle GVWRs.

***(GVW) is the actual scale weight of any vehicle including vehicle and all cargo, fuel, driver, etc. GVW is what it weighs on the scale.

***GVWR is the manufacturer's maximum recommended weight rating for a specific vehicle....truck or trailer. The Gross Vehicle Weight Rating is the amount recommended by the manufacturer as the upper limit to the operational weight for a motor vehicle and any cargo, fuel, equipment, passengers etc. to be carried.

***CGVWR is the sum of the GVWRs of the towing and towed vehicle(s) when used in combinations.

***GCWR... Generally speaking, the GCWR that most people are familar with is the term a manufacturer uses to express the towing capacity of the vehicle and includes both GVWs of each unit. Usually, the maximum allowable trailer weight is identified separately. In most cases, GCWR will be stated as the total allowable weight of the completely loaded tow vehicle and trailer including passengers, cargo, equipment, and conversions. The GCWR isn't necessarily the sum of all GVWRs for each unit in combination-unit motor vehicles. For single-unit trucks there is no difference between the GVWR and the GCWR.

Based on the manufacturer's ratings, yes, your example would be the maximum loaded trailer weight (GVW), but not necessarily the GVWR. (GVW is not to be confused with the trailer's GVWR) It should also be remembered GVWR and GCWR are manufacturer "rating" recommendations for a particular vehicle as built and delivered from the manufacturer. From a regulatory perspective, I don't know of any specific FMCSA regulation that prohibits towing a a trailer that causes your combination to exceed the manufacturer's GCWR. If someone else does, I'd sure appreciate the reference. However, in the event of an accident, if exceeding the GCWR, GVWR or registered GVW is found to be a contributing factor, you could be charged under a safety violation.

As you observed, it is quite common among small truck operators (i.e. 1 & 2 tonners) to tow trailers having a GVWR, that when combined, exceed the manufacterer's GCWR rating. Common sense and safety are the paramount factors to consider. Also, remember the GVWR/GCWR isn't necessarily the scale weight (GVW) and you're likely not loaded to the maximum most of the time.

In your example, increasing your registered weight, it does not change the GCWR since GCWR is established by the manufacturer. If you check most manufacturer's owners manuals, you note they use phrases such as "should not exceed GCWR" rather than "shall not" implying it isn't based in a statutory restriction. However, it may impact the manufacturer's warranty provisions.

Increasing the registered weight can increase your legal scale weight (allowable GVW), so that is kind of a back door answer to your question...."Can I increase my GCWR by buying different plates?"... The GCWR wouldn't change, but your legal scale weight would.

Individual states issue truck and trailer plates. Assuming your CGVWR (Note this is not the same as GCWR) is below 26,000 lbs, and you are not registered with apportioned plates, you may or may not be required to register the truck with commercial plates. That is dependent on your state's laws. In most states, you should register the truck for the maximum combined scale weight (CGVW), within legal limits, you would expect to transport. There are exceptions such as NY where you register truck and trailer weights individually.

Frequently the registered weight does exceed the manufacturer's GCWR recommendation. For example, a particular model GM Duramax 1 ton dually with a GVWR of 11,400 lbs and a trailer GVWR of 14,500 lbs would have a CGVWR of 25,900 lbs. In the owner's manual, that same truck lists a maximum allowable trailer weight of 16,200 lbs and a GCWR of 23,500 lbs. Ironically, if added separately, the trucks GVWR (11,400) and the recommended maximum trailer weight (16,200), you would come up with an entirely different number (27,600). To be legal and conservative, a reasonable approach would be to register for 26,000 lbs. As you can see, that would exceed the book's listed GCWR by 2,400 lbs and the registered weight would exceed it by 2,500 lbs. In my home state I could legally register the same vehicle for 36,000 or more lbs if I desired.

Another point about registration that probably should be made is that if you operate commercially in two or more jurisdictions and register over 26,000 lbs, you may be required to register as apportioned plates.

In FMCSA regulations, the GVWR & CGVWR are used for two primary purposes. First of all to define a CMV. That is the 10,001 lbs GVWR/CGVWR threshold. Secondly, it is used to determine if a CDL is required. Vehicles or combinations with a GVWR/CGVWR of 26,001 lbs require a CDL.

Note: There are other factors such as transporting a specific number of passengers; vehicles with the capacity to transport a specified number of passengers; and transporting of any amount of HM that requires placarding could also invoke a requirement for a CDL regardless of GVWR/GCWR.

In general, registration weight is used as the maximum allowable weight you can actually scale without being cited for over weight (GVW/CGVW). It may often be more than the GCWR of the vehicle(s). Of course, there are other factors that can cause you to be cited for "over weight" such as exceeding tire or axle weight ratings. And don't try to add the front and rear axle ratings from your truck's decal to derive the GVWR. In every case I've checked on one of these 1 tonners, they won't add up to GVWR.

Some states may have unique restrictions and most Canadian Provinces definitely do restrict you to the CGVWR, but I have not found that stated in FMCSA regulations. If anyone else knows the reference in FMCSA regulations, please send it to me.

Maybe this will help with your question about increasing your registration weight and how it impacts the manufacturer's GCWR. Technically it doesn't change the GCWR but may change your allowable GVW. Hopefully too, this explains the reason you frequently see a 1 ton dually towing a 3 or 4 car wedge or 48' flatbed and they registered to 36,000 lbs or more. As far as I can determine, it is legal by FMCSA regulations, but may not be the most safe thing to do.

Thanks again for the question and I sincerely hope this has helped some.
....Don
SEMO Motor Transport Service


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Im sorry if I hurt any feelings, but I had to take 2 hours of my time to put an end to this bs..

If you use GVWR/GCWR you cant really tow much of anything. FORGET THAT.... MEANS NOTHING!

Its a number the mfrs use to protect themselves.... NOT YOU!

YOU ARE protected if you DONT EXCEED AXLE RATINGS!!!!! (GAWR)

IF you tow a 5er, your truck has no warranty on it IF the dealer decided to use that as a scapegoat. They rarely do, but this gives them the way out. Most all 5ers cause your truck to exceed its GVWR AND GCVWR..

A lawyer cannot use GVWR AND GCWR and make it stick in court. A lawyer can only use ACTUAL GVW and CGVW. THAT IS DETERMINED BY THE AXLE RATINGS!!!!! (GAWR) This is what the law uses to decide if a vehicle is overweight. A lawyer can only successfully sue you if you break the LAW. Yes you can be sued for anything, but a good lawyer on your part that knows law will save ya.

I can go to sleep now! YEH!

I shouldnt even visit these forums when Im out here working on the road cause I have no time for them! AND I hate hurting peoples feelings when I dont have the time to get my point across. So I took part of my sleep time and tried to clear this up vdub.

Go buy a bigger trailer vdub and ENJOY YOUR RETIREMENT!!! just dont exceed the ACTUAL GVW of your vehicles determined by there axle ratings GAWR... If you do this you are as safe as you are right now. 6000lbs on the rear of your dodge is nothing IF you have some air bags.. Im often 9000lbs with my dually.. I sleep just fine at night.. Except for when I got to set the weight police straight.. Then my sleep gets cut in two.. lol

Yea I will blame the weight police tomorrow for swerving over the line when the cop pulls me over.. lol

Trust me vdub you will sleep the same if your truck weighs 11000lbs or 9000lbs. You really dont hardly notice the 2000lb difference if you ad some air bags. It will actually ride better than it does now if you put about 40-50psi in a set of air bags. Your springs wont even know the weight is even there then. 2000lbs can only be felt if the springs feel it. If they dont, you or your truck wont even know its there. Trust me on that one..

REMEMBER>>>> YOU CAN BE SUED FOR ANYTHING. SO who cares! ENJOY LIFE!

Carey


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

Have I weighted mine? Are you serious? Of course I have and I'm under. I weigh it every year when we leave on a trip.
My weights this year....
I guess you will never convince me and I will never convince you. However, I think it's important that someone trying to make a decision hear both sides of the discussion. I think it is cheaper to buy a new rig than it is to go through the trauma of a suit. As for speed, 60 is my normal speed, but I might go up to 65 if out on a smooth, lonely desert road.

But, like said earlier, it has to be to the individual on how much risk they want to assume. A younger person with a good job could probably weather a law suit much easier than I could because they have time to recover. For me, my income and savings is set in concrete -- what I have now has to last the rest of my life. A lawsuit would wipe me out (with certain limitations as provided by law).

Can my rig haul/tow more than stated? Absolutely! You would not believe some of the loads we hauled when I was young boy growing up on the farm. I once had a gross of 28,000 pounds of wheat on a little old F-650 2 and half ton truck. Stupid? Yeah, but it was the last load of a long season, it was getting dark, and it was a different time when people didn't sue at any profication.

I believe I'll stick with my original premise.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

lol and thats fine vdub.

Just like vtx said its a 50/50 thing.

Thats nice that you travel light, but your neighbor doesnt so who really cares anyway.

Like I said if you enjoy life than so be it.

tata
Carey


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

By the way, I tow at 58-60 mph.

Whats even crazier is I only do 63 empty.

My engine never sees more than 2000 rpm. Thats why it will last.

M engine turns 2000 rpm at 63 mph so thats as fast as I ever drive. Yes people in a rush flip me the bird. I smile and wave.

So for your info I am anal about things too vdub. Dont feel bad for your view on things. Thats what mnakes a forum great.

Here I am all ready to go. I go check the weather in Iowa... Not good. Roads are already covered in snow. Winds in Nebraska are in the mid 30's. We got a mini blizzard out there. Its supposed to drop further south tomorrow. Having a 13000lb 39 foot sail behind you isnt much fun when the roads are slick and the wind is blowin.

Its sunny and warm here in Elkhart. Well its at 30 or so degrees. Feels warm to me.

I decided to wait till tomorrow to leave. I think I will go see the cutie down at the resturant so I can feel like its valantines day.. lol No No.. I just like to look at stuff that looks good, hehee.. large pretty 5ers look just as nice as cute watresses to me.. Yea its a trucker thing.. Makes the food taste better..

Carey


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## vtxbud (Apr 4, 2009)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> I decided to wait till tomorrow to leave. I think I will go see the cutie down at the resturant so I can feel like its valantines day.. lol No No.. I just like to look at stuff that looks good, hehee.. large pretty 5ers look just as nice as cute watresses to me.. Yea its a trucker thing.. Makes the food taste better..
> 
> Carey


Hey Carey.........Don't forget to order the Chicken Fried Steak from the cute waitress. Can't get good ones up here,....C.F. Steak that is


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

I thought catfish was fitting, so I got that... lol

All I could eat for 8 bucks. lol They do have good chicken fried steak though! Gotta love mom and pop resturants. Elkhart is full of them.

lol This landmark is full body paint too.. 112k. Man someones got some money. We have about 10 of these bad boys out of the 100 or so trailers sitting on our lot waiting to be delivered. Id much rather haul one of these than a 30 foot bumper pull. I get better mpg with a 39 foot 13000lb 5er than a 8000lb 30 foot bumper pull. Crazy uh?

Plus DOT knows that the guys that are allowed to pull 100k+ fully painted 5ers are the good guys. They tend not to give us much hassle. Its good to be the cream at the top sometimes.

Carey


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## vdub (Jun 19, 2004)

Well, I guess we agree to disagree...

I found that 60 mph gives me about the best mpg. When we go thru AZ and endlessly hit the straight stretches and then the hills, the trucks normally pass me, but then, still doing 60, I pass them on the hills. We continue that way for miles with each of us flashing for when it's safe to pull in. Get lots of smiles and waves after about the 6th pass.

Finally got a warm, dry day here in Houston. Currently 67. Signed up for a few more days here to do some maintenance on the rv before heading to San Antonio.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

I rarely pass a semi if he only slows to 40 or so on a hill. I feel its pointless to play pass each other over and over. Since I am hauling a new rv, having semis pass and repass only ups my chances for damages to the trailer. Lots of sand and gravel gets thrown at me. Even in the summer a rare rock can get your windshield. I have 300k on the original windshield. Knock on rams horns! Im in no rush while towing so it makes good since to just stay in the right lane that way I have the whole shoulder to get over on if something goes wrong. When hauling a new rv its all about keeping the rv protected from anything that may happen out there. It must be working, I still havent had a damaged rv in 2 years now. Knock on wood again.

Generally in rolling hills I will slow down for the 1st couple and by then I cant catch em on the next one.

But yea on mountain passes I will pass em all and make em repass me later.

Nothing to disagree on vdub. We both do around 60 while towing. Its a good safe speed for towing.. I like keeping my engine right at 1900 while towing.

These cummins are designed to be worked right around 2000 rpms. They will run for years and years at 2000 rpm.

Carey


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## outbackmac (Feb 1, 2005)

Ok now that this topic has been quiet for awhile let me start it back up. We have been looking at a 5ver now that is 10,000 dry and under 12,000 total with a pin weight of 1580 dry i know this will increase with weight added to trailer would this make more sense to all?


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

outbackmac said:


> Ok now that this topic has been quiet for awhile let me start it back up. We have been looking at a 5ver now that is 10,000 dry and under 12,000 total with a pin weight of 1580 dry i know this will increase with weight added to trailer would this make more sense to all?


Assume 20-25% of the trailer weight on the pin and run the numbers. Of course I've already stated my opinion.


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