# 21 RS & Jeep Cherokee



## rmcculloch (Aug 21, 2004)

Hi, my name is Ryan McCulloch and I just bought a 21 RS. I bought it at MT and they are setting up my tow vehicle and hitch. I just finished reading the "Crash" thread and now I am very uneasy about both my hitch and tow vehicle. I am going to tow it with a '99 Jeep Cherokee which has a 5000 lb. tow rating, but I am worried about the short wheelbase. The safety of my wife and 5 month old daughter is the most important thing, so what do you think? I really can't afford to go and buy a new truck right now, so what are my setup options? I am new to RVing, but i have grown up around them and have towed many motorcycle trailers and boats, but after reading that thread I am worried. Any help would be appreciated, Thanks.


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Hello Ryan and welcome to Outbackers.

Without knowing more about your tow vehicle it will be hard to consider the specifics. We will need the model style (is it a Grand Cherokee..I hope so!) engine size, rear gear ratio, and if it has a factory towing package or at least a tranny cooler installed. Also, what is the GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) of your Jeep.

However, right off the bat I can tell you that after loading up to go camping you will be quite close to your towing capacity. The 21RS with full options as most all Outbacks are equipped will weigh very close to 4320#. It's listed as 3990# dry weight, but this doesn't include any options. After you load up your gear you will be right at or close to 5000#.

On the tow vehicle side and being a 1/2 ton SUV (like my own!) you will likely not have much weight available for cargo + the tongue weight of your trailer. So load-up really light in the truck. This is not to say you will be over your limit, just a warning that you can exceed it easily in a 1/2 ton.

The 21RS dry tongue weight is really light at 360# (9% of dry weight) and can present a problem with sway when towing because you need AT LEAST 10% of your total trailer weight on the tongue. More like 13% is even better. That would mean packed to go camping at approximately 4900# overall, you will need about 490-637# of tongue weight. Just pack all your heavy stuff up in front. This will make for a stable and balanced load. This is however not considering the wheelbase of your truck.

If by MT you mean Mike Thompson's RV, then they will likely want to install a friction bar for sway control because your trailer is "only 21". Please don't let them do this as I am concerned that your shorter wheelbase might put you at a disadvantage controlling sway. MT is a major Reese dealer and will have the "Dual Cam HD" system also available to you. Please insist upon this system. I say this only because it works well, and they don't carry the Equil-I-zer system which is also excellent. Also, if cash is not a problem you could install the Hensley-Arrow hitch system. But expect to loose about $2900 in the process.

If you live in the So-Cal area and have the Dual Cam system installed please send me a note and I'll help you get the system set-up properly. MT, and every other dealer I have heard of, never get these systems adjusted properly. They will just install it. Many here can testify to the big difference in their systems once they have got them set-up correctly.

OK, I'm getting tired of typing now (it's like 1:30am!), so I'll just watch this thread for more questions. There are many others here with alot of knowledge who will soon chime in.
Good Luck!


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## rmcculloch (Aug 21, 2004)

Thanks for responding Jim. My tow vehicle is a Jeep Cherokee, I have added the largest transmission cooler available from Pep Boys and I added a trans temp gauge. It has a 4.0L straight six, 4 speed auto, 4X4 with NP231 transfer case, and my GVWR is 4900 lbs. I will call MT today to get a Dual Cam installed instead of the friction sway bar, I can't afford the $2900 hitch though. When I get this I would love any help setting the hitch up correctly. I live in Orange County, so I can drive to wherever I need toin so. calif. to get some good help.
Thanks, Ryan.


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## Explorinator (Jul 6, 2004)

I will second the motion on the Heavy Duty Hitch. Better safe than sorry.


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## KellerJames (Jan 19, 2004)

Hello Ryan,
Congrat's on your new 21RS. We own an '03 21RS and truely enjoy it. I don't mean to cast a dark cloud or anything, but in my opinion, I think the Cherokee is a bit undersized for the task. When we bought our Outback, we had a Ford F150 with a 4.6L V8 and 3.55 gears. The towing capacity, I think, was 6900#. I notice that the truck was strugling on hills or with head winds. I finally weighed the rig while fully loaded for a 9 day outing. I was a little over the vehicle's rating. I didn't think I had that much camping gear, but it adds up quick. With gear, gas, people and everything, I think you'll be pushing that Cherokee pretty hard. If I remember correctly, my Outback has a DRY weight of around 4600#. You will exceed 5000# easily if your not carefull. As far as wheel base, the F150 we had pulled the trailer ok, but there were some sway issues. I attribute some (not all) of that to the friction sway control I'm using. Not the best. It also had P rated tires rather than LT tires like I have now. We traded the F150 in for an '04 F250 with a bigger V8 and 3.73 gears, and after tweeking the hitch a little, it pulls soooo much better than it used to. Again, it's just my opinion, but I don't think the Chrokee is quite adequate for the job. At any rate, I hope you enjoy your new Outback and be safe. We don't need any more "We Crashed" topics.

KellerJames


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## jgerni (Nov 10, 2003)

Hi Ryan.

Welcome and congrads on your new Outback!

I am afraid though you will be looking for another TV very soon.

I have never owned or pulled with a Jeep Cherokee but have driven them. From my experience I would truly reconsider pulling that trailer with the Cherokee. Its lightweight, short wheelbase and the 4.0L do not lend itself to towing a trailer of that size. You will be over GVWR and GCW for sure. Please take it for a test tow. I am concerned about the safety and stability of that combination.

Iâ€™m not trying to be negative here but I think a popup or an ultra light (under 4000lbs GVRW) is the most you will want to tow with that Cherokee.

If you had the Grand Cherokee with a V8 you could get a way with it with a good hitch.

Be Safe!


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## Ymryl (Mar 2, 2004)

I'm going to agree with the others, I think that you are going to be pushing the limits of the Cherokee pulling the 21RS. I pulled mine with an '03 4-Runner prior to the Armada, it had a max tow rating of 7,000 pounds and did ok. One of the determining factors for going with the Armada which has a 123" wheelbase and 9,500 pound towing capacity was that I felt I was working the 4-Runner too hard. The wheelbase was 110" on the 4-Runner vs. 105.9" on the Cherokee. I didn't have any sway with the 4-Runner with a single friction anti-sway bar. If you are going to try pulling it with the Cherokee, I would strongly suggest a good setup like the Equalizer or Dual Cam. Of course, I did just read this week on the "Open Roads" forum where a guy is pulling a 29' trailer with his Cherokee














, so what do I know.....


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## KellerJames (Jan 19, 2004)

A couple oweeks ago I saw a 28' trailer being pulled with a little Land Rover Discovery. Don't know what kind of set up he had, but it didn't look like the safest thing to do.


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## kjp1969 (Apr 25, 2004)

Ryan,
I live about 3/4 mile from the Fountain Valley Mike Thompson's shop, and that's where I bought our 21RS about 3 weeks before I wrote the "we crashed" thread. I've got a lot to say about a 21RS and a marginal tow vehicle like that. Shoot me an e-mail with your phone number and I'll bend your ear, if you like. You're welcome to stop by next time we have our trailer home and check out the rig.

Here's the short version- having had a really bad experience, we bought a Hensley Arrow hitch. After towing around 2000 miles with it in many different conditions, I think its worth every penny. It certainly does what they claim (and it ought to for $3000). From my research, a Pull-Rite is a good choice also, but they only make them for limited applications. Remember, a 21RS has very light tongue weight- only around 9% of total, and that can contribute to sway without even considering the tow vehicle!

One observation- MT never met a tow vehicle they didn't like. I'm no expert, and who knows, maybe properly set up your TV will be fine. Just don't believe the guy who wants to sell you the trailer- he's got a hefty commission check invested in your decision.

If I were you, and had your doubts, I'd sell the Cherokee and get a used Suburban or full sized, long wheelbase pickup. Used, they're not *that* expensive, and the extra mass and stability will make a world of difference. If anyone disagrees with me, I'm sure they'll speak up!

Kevin P.


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Hate to be a bummer guy too Ryan, but after hearing more about your truck, I think you will be very dissapointed and perhaps unsafe with the standard Cherokee as your tow vehicle for this trailer. If you are locked into the deal and absolutely HAVE to tow with it then:

1. Put on LT tires with a load range of "D". The sidewalls are much firmer and will reduce side to side sway of your trucks rear end.

2. Change your shocks to the Rancho adjustables and tow with them set on #9 (firmest).

3. Reese Dual Cam sway control system. Lets get together and set it up perfect.

4. Start budgeting for a new tow vehicle because this one won't last but one season, and staying fairly local at that.









I'm not usually this blunt with my opinions, and I really do want you to have a great time camping with your family. But I have serious doubts about your success with this truck. Please be carefull.


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## hyewalt34 (May 9, 2004)

Hi Ryan,

Congradualtions on your new Outback. My wife and I love our 21RS!

Here is my experience with a smaller tow vechicle: I started out with a Toyota Tacoma Double Cab TRD. V6, 6000 lb. tow capacity and a 600 lb. hitch weight. We made 3 trips with it before buying a new truck. Even though I was well within the specs for the truck, it was not fun pulling the trailer. I do a lot of large vechicle driving and have pulled smaller trailers for years and realized that this was not going to work out. I just didn't feel in good control and also found any kind of head-wind forced a downship into 2'nd. I've got a real nice set-up now and can _almost_ forget that the trailer is back there! We just got back from a 2500 mile trip up to Oregon and had no towing issues. With the Tacoma we probably would have turned around after we hit the mountians north of Redding! As the other folks have said, hitch set up is criticle. I am convinced that most sway problems are caused by improper hitch set up and a poorly loaded trailer. California Jim has made you a wonderful offer of help on this.

The bottom line is that I made a mistake with the smaller truck. Even though I had everything within specs, it just wasn't right!

Also,spend a extra $50.00 and get the Prodigy Brake Contoller, if it's not already included.

Walter


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## luv2rv (Jun 21, 2004)

Ryan,

Congrats on the outback, you'll love it.

As for the tow vehicle, same opinion as everyone else that has responded. I just went through the same decision. My Signature shows the vehicle I am picking up on Tuesday.

I towed my 28BH-S with a Chev Trailblazer (4.2L wth I6) rated for 6100lbs a couple of times. It was under powered but stable on most roads. My last trip was on a highway/Freeway and that sealed the decision. The short wheelbase just did not feel right at 100km/H (60mph) with big rigs going by.

I use an Equal-i-zer hitch and spent a good deal of time setting up. The truck was simply the achilles heal in the equation.

Consider a pickup truck or 'Burb as others have stated.

Enjoy, be safe and have fun!

Wayne


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## OPKSclan (Jun 22, 2004)

Ymryl,

I read your posts on the Open Road Forum. The guy pulling the 29' Terry with the Grand Cherokee is out of his mind. Hopefully he will be smart enough to change to a larger TV. I hope he's not traveling with children. I have a 28BHS with an '02 Suburban and sometimes feel that it isn't enough. I couldn't imagine driving his setup. I would be white-knuckling it the whole trip.

Dan


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## hurricaneplumber (Apr 12, 2004)

Ryan,

On a positive note.... Welcome to Outbackers!!!! sunny sunny action


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## Ymryl (Mar 2, 2004)

I know what you mean, when I first looked at that picture I was amazed. His initial reply to everyone convinced me he is totally clueless. Unfortunately, he seems to be pretty dead set in his conviction that a 105" wheelbase is enough for a 29' trailer. I just hope he doesn't take anyone else out with him when he crashes (which he will eventually). It's like putting a sail from a "tall ship" on a Sunfish sailboat...


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## rmcculloch (Aug 21, 2004)

Thanks to everyone that responded. I finally got my TT yesterday and I towed it home from MT, behind a F250 Crew Cab 4X4 Diesel. I borrowed the truck from a friend of mine and I'm actually borrowing it for a trip the next 2 weeks. When I get back from the trip it's time to go truck shopping I guess. My families safety is the number 1 priority and therefore the Jeep is gettin tossed. On a lighter note, I think I fell in love with that F250, I could hardly tell there was even a trailer back there, but there's the $40,000 price tag.
Ryan


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## Ymryl (Mar 2, 2004)

Congrats Ryan !









Now you can move on over to the New Truck Fever thread !


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

Congrats Ryan. Well if you go shopping for an F250 let me know I can drop you some websites that have some good information. With all the rebates right now you can get some decent deals. I was able to get $500 under invoice, plus rebates on my 05, but the 04s have a lot of rebates available.

Happy Camping.


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## California Jim (Dec 11, 2003)

Best of luck Ryan with whatever you do. And once again congratulations and welcome to the Outback family. sunny


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## dougdogs (Jul 31, 2004)

Congrats Ryan.

If you are serious about getting a new Ford, make sure you check out the forums at ford-trucks.com

I recently bought a new F150 FX4 (sticker was 37,400) I paid a little over 6 thousand for it (they gave me a little over 24K for my trade in which I know was only worth 22K







)

Do the math, I was able to get a fantastic deal due to info I got at that ford website.


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## rmcculloch (Aug 21, 2004)

Well I just got back from a 2 week trip after borrowing my friend's F250. We love the Outback and had a great time travelling all around California. Well I guess I am selling the Jeep and looking for a tow vehicle. Anyone want to buy a '99 Jeep Cherokee 4X4. Thanks for all your help.
Ryan


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## chipb43 (Mar 22, 2004)

IMHO, I have a 1999 Jeep Sport and we used to have a 1997 Grand Cherokee and there is no way I would have attempt to pull my 21RS with either of these vehicles.

......of course this from the guy who blew up his Suburban pulling his 21RS.


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## Travelers Rest (Feb 27, 2004)

WOW, I have to second the observations on that character pulling the 30footer with his Cherokee.... Something about that picture just looks dangerous....Like the kind of picture you see on CNN after a major tragedy and high priced analysts observe in wonder at how this could happen....

Steve


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## rmcculloch (Aug 21, 2004)

Well just to let everyone who answered my questions, thank you!!! I have now sold the Jeep and bought a 2000 F150 Supercab 4X4. We just got back from our first trip out with the new TV and it does great, no stability or power problems. Thanks again for all your advice.
Ryan


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## kjp1969 (Apr 25, 2004)

Bravo! Glad it all worked out. 
Kevin P.


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