# Why Ford Built There Own Diesel



## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Hope I get this right.

2 tubos with wastegates
2 egr coolers
3 low temp radiators
1 main radiator
1 air to air charge cooler

This is what is out for IH semis. IH choose to use high amounts of egr(50%+) instead of SCR.

For those that understand this technology and would like to learn more, watch other IH maxx force videos. Youll flip!

I am already hearing that guys who have bought these trucks already are having problems. Caterpillar quit making on road diesel engines. It wasnt worth it to them since on road diesel is a small portion of Cats biz. This emission thing is out of hand. Cat couldnt pass emissions without huge R and D. So they quit.

Thank You Ford for getting rid of IH engines... Things were just about to get real bad for IH diesel engines. Ford got out just in time. The SCR tech is clearly superior to this garbage!


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## battalionchief3 (Jun 27, 2006)

I'm sure they are having problems, too much stuff. So what your saying is the "urea" stuff is the simplest and easiest way to go. You just have to buy it and don't run out, right?


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

battalionchief3 said:


> I'm sure they are having problems, too much stuff. So what your saying is the "urea" stuff is the simplest and easiest way to go. You just have to buy it and don't run out, right?


Yes, just add some when you change your oil on the Ford (or when it warns you). It's another fill tube right under the fuel door. It sounds a lot worse than it is.


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## Reverie (Aug 9, 2004)

Urea has got to be a better solution than adding more and more complexity to what is at it's heart, a very simple machine. The PowerStroke has been a great engine for Ford. Even the 6.0 became a great engine after the first two years. Right now Ford seems to be doing things right.

Reverie


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## Collinsfam_WY (Nov 9, 2006)

I think I'll go hug my V10 now.









-CC


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Very funny Curtis!

Yep look forward to urea. It is our savior to having to deal with a complexity such as what IH has choosen to do.

I sure feel sorry for a IH mechanic.

IH has just lost there mind.. They actually have videos saying how superior there technology is over others urea/scr tech. Those engineer boys are smoking some kind of stuff, Id say.. You watch, IH will become the laughing stock of diesel engines..

Carey


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## battalionchief3 (Jun 27, 2006)

I think some company's do that because some people do not want another added expense like urea. They figure people pay enough for fuel and maintenance and to add urea to the fill up charge, may turn people away. For me I would rather have urea and less crap clogging up the under hood space. Just more to go wrong and it will go wrong. It would infuriate me to sell my gas big block and buy a new diesel that was always in the shop. Guess when I go to buy I will get a urea truck.


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## W5CI (Apr 21, 2009)

Guess what you get when you combine Urea and Diesel???? BOOOM


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## bradnjess (Mar 25, 2007)

So let me see if I have this right. In a SCR system there is still a DPF but no EGR. The urea is injected into the exhaust gas in a catalytic converter, creating nitrogen and water vapor. If this is true I'm wondering if there will ever be an aftermarket system that deletes the EGR and adds SCR after the DPF allowing trucks to stay legal but increase efficiency and power. I know this technology is early on but a guy with an EGR system and DPF can dream right?

Brad


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

CARB has a law they are working that will require all commercial trucks to have a DPF reguardless of model year. This may very well fall into private use also. They have been pushing for 2014, but they may push things back a couple years.

EGR will still be used in urea trucks. But only about 1/2 of what they are now using. If your truck is a egr/dpf truck, I would doubt that a kit comes out that is legal to delete it.

So yes, egr will still be used in scr/urea vehicles, just less of it.

A diesel can handle 20% egr without problems. Right now they are using 35-40% and thats not good. This new IH engine is using 50% or so... Horrible!


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

danny285 said:


> Guess what you get when you combine Urea and Diesel???? BOOOM


So it makes some kind of reaction?


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Yeah, you're not going to get around EGR, but that isn't all bad. However, like Carey said, as % of EGR increases, you start seeing problems. In addition to any engine issues, you notice IH had 2 EGR coolers to cool it down enough to dump back into the engine. These coolers can be a big issue.

I'm assuming Urea and Diesel isn't that much different than Diesel and Fertilizer, which has been demonstrated over the years with powerful results...


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## Reverie (Aug 9, 2004)

On the PowerStroke 6.0 the first thing most people delete is the EGR. Once the engine goes out of warranty a lot of people do that to eliminate this point of failure. About two years ago I read on a Diesel Forum a post from a mechanic that estimates that 40% of the significant failures he sees on the PS 6.0 are directly attributable to the EGR Cooler.

Reverie


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## Lmbevard (Mar 18, 2006)

Reading all the things about the new Diesels, I think I'm going to take really good care of my 2000 Dodge/Cummins. So far all the problems I have had with it has to do with fuel so are fairly simple to take care of.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

Lmbevard said:


> Reading all the things about the new Diesels, I think I'm going to take really good care of my 2000 Dodge/Cummins. So far all the problems I have had with it has to do with fuel so are fairly simple to take care of.


And you can buy a whole set of injectors for what one of mine costs. But the new trucks cost twice as much as mine for injectors.

Basically when the dpf trucks need the injectors replaced, its junk. The injectors and fuel system cost more than the whole mechanical part of the engine. Yes they are begining to come down in price, but will stay in the 6-800 range for each injector.

Mine are in the 3-400 range each. Ive seen your injectors for 500 a set. Makes me sick... Keep your ole dodge. Its the best truck of em all.

Carey


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## Reverie (Aug 9, 2004)

dpf?

Reverie


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

Here's a good description of the Ford system, including the terms we're throwing around:









*How the new Power Stroke meets new emissions standards*
The new 6.7-liter Power Stroke V-8 turbocharged diesel will employ an aftertreatment system to help comply with 2010 federal regulations to reduce nitrogen-oxide levels in diesel emissions by more than 80 percent compared with the previous standard. The Ford aftertreatment system is a three-stage process; a key component is the use of Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF).

Injection of DEF to reduce NOx is a proven technology that's been used throughout the automotive industry. Unlike other solutions used to control NOx, the DEF system allows the diesel engine to run at its optimum range in terms of fuel mixture. Some systems require the engine to run richer - which can be harmful to diesel engines - in order to control the NOx.

*Step One:* Cleaning and Heating - The first step in cleaning the diesel exhaust occurs when the exhaust stream enters the Diesel Oxidation Catalyst (DOC). The role of the DOC is twofold. First, it converts and oxidizes hydrocarbons into water and carbon dioxide. This conversion happens at about 250 degrees Celsius.

Second, the DOC is used to provide and promote heat, using specific engine management strategies, into the exhaust system. Through appropriate thermal management, this heat increases the conversion efficiency of the downstream subsystem(s) in reducing emissions.

*Step Two:* Knocking Out the NOx - The next step in the process is what's known as Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR). In this process, the NOx in the exhaust stream is converted into water and inert nitrogen, which is present in the atmosphere and harmless. Before the exhaust gas enters the SCR chamber, it is dosed with DEF, an aqueous solution that is approximately 67.5 percent water and 32.5 percent pure urea.

When heated, the DEF splits into ammonia and carbon dioxide. These molecules are atomized, and vaporized, then enter a mixer that resembles a corkscrew. This twist mixer evenly distributes the ammonia within the exhaust flow. The ammonia enters the SCR module, which contains a catalyzed substrate, and through chemical reactions combines and converts the NOx and ammonia into the harmless inert nitrogen and water. Dosing occurs between 200 and 500 degrees Celsius.

*Step Three:* Scrubbing Away the Soot - The final part of the cleansing system for the diesel exhaust gas involves the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF). The DPF traps any remaining soot, which is then periodically burned away, known as regenerating, when sensors detect the trap is full. The regeneration process sees temperatures in excess of 600 degrees Celsius to burn away soot.


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## mv945 (Jul 18, 2006)

Yeah, my 2002 LB7 Duramax just turned over 100k miles and is humming along. The new trucks are nice, but this one is still doing everything I want it to...
(injectors replaced at 87000 and covered by GM)


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## TexanThompsons (Apr 21, 2009)

Thanks for posting that Nathan. Can't say I fully understand now but puts the larger conversation in context for me.


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

TexanThompsons said:


> Thanks for posting that Nathan. Can't say I fully understand now but puts the larger conversation in context for me.


I was looking for a pictorial showing the parts. If I find a released one, I'll post it.


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## clarkely (Sep 15, 2008)

Nathan said:


> Thanks for posting that Nathan. Can't say I fully understand now but puts the larger conversation in context for me.


I was looking for a pictorial showing the parts. If I find a released one, I'll post it.
[/quote]








so release one


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2007)

clarkely said:


> Thanks for posting that Nathan. Can't say I fully understand now but puts the larger conversation in context for me.


I was looking for a pictorial showing the parts. If I find a released one, I'll post it.
[/quote]








so release one








[/quote]
OR, _someone_ could crawl under their new 2011 Truck when it comes in and take a picture.


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## clarkely (Sep 15, 2008)

Nathan said:


> Thanks for posting that Nathan. Can't say I fully understand now but puts the larger conversation in context for me.


I was looking for a pictorial showing the parts. If I find a released one, I'll post it.
[/quote]








so release one








[/quote]
OR, _someone_ could crawl under their new 2011 Truck when it comes in and take a picture.








[/quote]

I am a GM kid of guy......(although I do like the newer Ford's - friend just got a 2010) and it appears Ford will be beating GM with getting the product to Market.... so i won't be able to add any pictorials anytime soon, hopefully i will this summer







but i like to be behind the wheel before i get to excited......... Last time i ordered......American axle went on Strike and my order was delayed for like 3 months


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## battalionchief3 (Jun 27, 2006)

Seems like the urea is the better way to go till the aliens give us more technology for cleaner emissions. Any time the EPA push the auto makers for cleaner cars we, the public, have trouble for a few years. Remember the electric carburetor with all those wires running out of it? Remember the GM convert the gas to diesel car...yeah that went well. Remember how much stuff was not under the hood of your TBI or Diesel truck hood? Now they have to take the body off....Guess I need to take off my foil helmet and contact the mother-ship and ask them for better technology for cleaner emissions.


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## bradnjess (Mar 25, 2007)

TexanThompsons said:


> Thanks for posting that Nathan. Can't say I fully understand now but puts the larger conversation in context for me.


X2


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

mv945 said:


> Yeah, my 2002 LB7 Duramax just turned over 100k miles and is humming along. The new trucks are nice, but this one is still doing everything I want it to...
> (injectors replaced at 87000 and covered by GM)


My daughter lives in Bonnie Lake, Wa. Will be out to see her on monday. Lake Tapps is a stones throw from her house. Going back to Vancouver Island. The pay is excellent so I aint goin home till wifey says so. 3rd trip in a row up there. Will lay down 18-19k miles this month and my pickup will gross 12k. Will make over 6k take home... Anyone need a job delivering rvs? We need a good 200 more trucks, we're swamped! We are hiring canadian based drivers now too. WE NEED TRUCKS!

Other than injectors your dmax is a great engine. They guys who run that year truck have to replace injectors every 100k. Other than that, Ive seen 2001 to 2003 dmaxs with 1,000,000 on em and never been opened up. Incredible!

Also, thanks for your input Nathan.. Great article on the explanation of the new ford!

Carey


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## clarkely (Sep 15, 2008)

battalionchief3 said:


> Guess I need to take off my foil helmet and contact the mother-ship and ask them for better technology for cleaner emissions.










i have a couple other requests if they are open to suggestions when you speak to them


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## mv945 (Jul 18, 2006)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> My daughter lives in Bonnie Lake, Wa. Will be out to see her on monday. Lake Tapps is a stones throw from her house.


I grew up in Bonney Lake proper on Lake Tapps. Went to Bonney Lake elementary school. Didn't stray far as I am now just outside Bonney Lake city limits, but next to Tapps.
I have a feeling the engine on my truck will outlast the rest of the truck.


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## Carey (Mar 6, 2012)

I think she is outside of the city limits too. She is around Prairie Road and 214th if I remember right. There is a fire station not far from her house. There is a grocery store where I turn onto Prairie Road off of 410. I think its safeway and walmart is nearby too. Thats always how I find it.. I think her street is 120 something and 214th street.

Everytime I go there she has to remind me of the directions again. I have to make like 5 turns. I still get lost if Im not careful.

You two are almost neighbors.. lol small world..

Yep most of these lil diesels will outlast the truck they are in. Keeping up with all the little stuff is almost worse than the engine work we are missing..









Carey


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## TDaniels (May 18, 2007)

Colorado~DirtBikers said:


> Hope I get this right.
> 
> 2 tubos with wastegates
> 2 egr coolers
> ...


 Cary, you are right on this one. I spec and purchase about 75 medium and HD trucks per year for my company and oversee 2 service departments. I went to 4 different seminars put on by Navistar, Detroit, Volvo and Cummins. Navistar is going the same route as Cat did, when everyone else decides to go one way and one company decides to go another, you have to consider why. Are their engineers that much smarter? I had to let my International dealer know that when they ran out of Pre-emission engines that I would no longer be buying Internationals for my Company. During their sales pitches they went so far as to send me an MSDS sheet on DEF to show how bad it was, so I sent them one back on # 2 Diesel fuel and said as long as we don't take a bath in either we should all be fine. They also held up a bottle of Mercedes AdBlue (DEF)and told us that it would cost $18.00 per gallon. In reality it is available for about $4 or less per gallon. International will be using credits and feels that technology should catch up on Injectors by the time they run out of credits sometime in 2013. By going to SCR systems, manufacturers will be able to "dirty" up the engines and tune them again for driveability, power, torque and fuel mileage rather than just trying to clean up the emissions internally at the expense of all these. As to the truck/engine combo shown in the video, I have had one of these in my shop for a day to inspect and you cannot see any portion of the block, head or valve cover. The coolers are massive and will require removal to adjust the valve. On a truck this size this should be a 1-2 hour job, on this truck we estimated 4-6 hours!!

Todd


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