# Propane Leaks And Dealer Negligence...



## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

On returning from our second trip in the S.S. PDX_Doug, we were confronted with a 'significant' propane leak inside the coach. We had the gas on during the three hour trip to keep the refrigerator cold, and when PDX_Shannon went in to start unloading, the smell of propane was like running into a brick wall.









After airing the trailer out we took it into our local Outback dealer to find the problem. They had the trailer a few days and returned it with the assurance there was no problem. That we probably just bumped one of the stove knobs and a burner valve had been slightly open during the drive ('Happens all the time' they said.)

Getting the trailer home from the dealer, I opened the tanks, closed up the trailer and left it for an hour or so (being sure all burners on the stove were off).

When I went back in, I was faced - once again - with a trailer full of propane.

Back to The Dealer - myself in a much less amenable but still civil mood - the trailer went. The service writer apologized profusely about not finding the leak the first time, and fed me a line about how 'sometimes the tech will attach the leak down tester at the stove, and that does not always give the most accurate reading', and she would make sure they did it at the tank this time time.

Two thoughts here...

First of all, this is absolute B.S.







, once the system is charged, you will get the same indication of pressure loss wherever in the system you attach the gauge (assuming you are smart enough to put it on the right side of the regulator to start with).

Secondly, if they knew that one location does not give an accurate reading, why in the H*** didn't they take it in the right place the first time!







I mean, we are not talking about a leaky faucet here, this is propane we are talking about, and I would rather not lose my family to this, because the tech was too lazy or arrogant to do it right the first time!

Anyway, this was a service writer talking, and their only reason for existing is to B.S. customers anyway, so what are you going to do?

Anyway, after a couple more days, the dealer called to say they had found the leak and repaired it (YEAH!). It turns out there is a pressure regulator under the cooktop, and the supply line fitting to it was not correctly attached, and leaking.

Took the trailer home. Same drill.... Same outcome, a trailer full of propane!!!

By this time, I am totally, um, peeved! Here I am with a trailer that is unsafe to use. A dealer I no longer have ANY confidence in. Heck, I can't even sell the thing in this condition with a clear conscience (much less without a huge personal liability).

A little bit of research, and I find out that - in Oregon at least - you have to be certified to work on propane systems. And that it is not a token certification, but requires extensive and continuing education.

To make an already long story a little shorter, We found a local RV repair outfit tht does onsite work and are certified. They were out the next day, and found the actual leak (a mis-seated gasket in the valve for the stoves high pressure burner). After fixing this, he did a complete leak down test on the trailer and gave us a written clean bill of health (another thing we never got from the dealer!). Best of all, the leak is fixed!









The whole thing ended up costing me $65.00 for the service call. The repair guy is certified by Atwood (range manufacturer) and took care of the repair and testing on warrantee. I will be forwarding the bill for the service call to the dealer!

The thought of the liability that the dealer was willing to open themselves up to in this matter absolutley appalls me. Unbelievable!

The bottom line is this...

I don't care how 'nice' and ' helpful' your dealer is (and mine is both), when it comes down to it, we are on our own to make sure things are done right. Never assume that the problem was taken care of. Always question it. Always test it.

And when you do find someone good.... Don't loose thier business card!

Happy Trails,
Doug

P.S., After four trips back to the dealer, they still have not managed to get my Equali-i-zer hitch properly adjusted either. Guess I'm on my own for this as well.


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Did the repair guy go straight to the problem (indicating it was common) or did it take a while to isolate??

Also did he indicate how this happened? Normal use or a manufacturing issue.


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## rdowns (Oct 20, 2004)

Thanks for the heads up. That could have been very bad.







Now you can camp without worrying about it.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Andy,

No, he did not go right to it. He started with the stove as this is the only propane source inside the coach. He did narrow it down to the high pressure burner valve within a few minutes, and came to the conclusion that there was a little debris blocking the needle valve from fully closing. Even cleared some out.

To his great credit though - and this is something the dealer obviously was not willing to invest the time in - he did not stop looking just because he assumed he had fixed the problem. He stayed at it to make sure everything was correct, and this eventually led to the real issue (leaking gasket).

Even after this was fixed, he spent another 15 minutes checking the stove/oven (and educating me about propane issues), before he was satisfied.

Then, he did a full leak down test to boot! This guy was thorough!

By the way, his name is Dana Stephenson, and his company is Mobile RV Technical Services. If you are ever in the area and in need of service, I offer my highest recommendation!!!

Thank you Dana.

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## Ghosty (Jan 17, 2005)

On a lighter note -- if you call the KEYSTONE customer service center and talk nicely to them -- they will have you fax a copy of the reciept to them and odds are reimburse you for the 65.00...

forwarding the bill to the dealer most probably wil just be wasting .37 cents on stamps... they're not going to pay it.


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## kkfbaloo37 (Mar 6, 2005)

Doug
Based on a fairly painful experience in my life as a Naval Officer, I have learned a few things about systems under pressure. It is all sort of based on differences in pressure. For example, an LP gas system is under pressure, more than the atmosphere in your trailer. So if there is a smell, there is a leak. The reason for the pressure is so the gas will get to your stove to light. (Not trying to talk down just explain). In my mind, this means that if you smell gas, you have to figure out where the leak is. The real problem is we do not have access to the entire line from the tank to the stove, or where ever else it goes. More than likely, the leak will be at some sort of junction. One method to find the leak is just using a squirt bottle with a solution of soap and water. You just have to spray it on each junction and look for bubbles. THe likely hood of the leak being in a pipe or a solid component is unlikely, unless the component fails.
I am glad you found the leak. By the way, LP Gas is orderless, or at least that is what I have been told, they add some smell, so you can find leaks or at least know when to get out or get service . 
Trust the force Luke, or you nose in this case, GOOD FOR YOU FOR STICKING TO YOUR GUNS>sunny 
Fred


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## uoutcampin2 (Mar 3, 2005)

Doug -

Was you LP detector working? Did you hear any alarms? My reason for asking is that I have read in many posts where people have had a TT full of LP gas and the detector did not go off. That may be something that needs to be replaced as well. I had attempted to test mine to see if it worked and it never did go off. Now maybe the 60 seconds I left the oven open without lighting wasn't enough.







I was getting pretty nervous. Would hate to explain that one to my insurance company.









Chris


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

To test your leak detector use a propane torch (the kind used by plumbers) just open the valve in the area of the detector and you should hear the detector scream. It is a safe way to test that it alarms but not to see what the alarm concentration is, which may be out of calibration.


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

Doug,



> He started with the stove as this is the only propane source inside the coach.


The furnace gas feed in also inside the coach. At least on the 26RS. If you furnace is under the couch, then so is the gas feed. Glad he was able to find the leak, and than you for the heads up. Propane is nothing to take lightly.

Fred, and Chris,

The odorant used in Propane is ethyl mercaptan. Propane is in fact a colorless/odorless gas. The mercaptan gives it a distinct rotten egg smell to aid in the detection of a leak. The mercaptan odor is extremely strong, and will be noticable long before the percentage of propane is dangerous. It's that way for a reason, so that leaks can be detected early.

Chris, if you question your detectors functionality, have it tested. You should be able to contact a propane dealer for this, or perhaps your Outback dealer, unless of course he is the same one that PDX_Doug used.....









Tim


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## Oregon_Camper (Sep 13, 2004)

CamperAndy said:


> To test your leak detector use a propane torch (the kind used by plumbers) just open the valve in the area of the detector and you should hear the detector scream. It is a safe way to test that it alarms but not to see what the alarm concentration is, which may be out of calibration.
> [snapback]37077[/snapback]​


That is a GREAT idea. I was wondering how I would test that detector...now I know how.

Another good reason I continue to read this forum everyday, ok 2x a day....Ok 3x a day.


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## PDX_Doug (Nov 16, 2004)

Chris,

Yes my detector is working. Another way to test it is with a butane lighter, not lit of course. Took about 45 seconds to set mine off.

Heres a little of what i learned about propane in all of this:

Tim is correct, the scent is added and it is very strong. In our case, even though it was extreme to the point of not being able to be in the trailer, it was nowhere near being at a dangerous level for either ignition or asphyxiation. The detector is set to go off at about 60 PPM (Parts Per Million), the danger level is way, way higher. DISCLAIMER: I am not advocating ignoring a leak of any size, but I am told that if the gas is not strong enough to set off the detector, it is not strong enough to be dangerous... no matter how bad it smells!

Secondly, you will never set off the detector by turning on the gas in the oven. The main supply line is controlled by a thermo-couple, and if it is not (very) hot, the gas won't flow. Furthermore, the gas flow from the ovens pilot light line is so low that...well, lets put it this way, if you want to commit suicide, don't waste your time putting your head in the oven of your Outback. It ain't going to work!

Anyway, let's all be careful out there. All we have is each other.

Happy Trails,
Doug


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## jallen58 (Oct 27, 2003)

Another thing that will set off the detector is ant spray. Ours went off once on a trip so I made everyone get out of the tt until I foud what was seting it off. Found no gas leaks so I asked the DW what see was doing when it went off when she said nothing just sprayed ant spray I sprayed some more and off it goes again.

jim


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## DANJOGAVINMO (Apr 17, 2004)

Doug,

Good to hear you got it fixed, I too have been through agonizing return trips to the dealer to get a problem corrected.

Seems like we could have a seperate section of this forum devoted to postings about good service and bad service we have received. Maybe it will save some of us some pain, agony, and $$$.

You mind sharing on the dealer you took it to so I can beware of them in the future?

Thx
Danny


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## BigBadBrain (Aug 26, 2004)

Doug,
I'm glad you got the problem resolved - it's nice to run across someone as professional as Dana appears to have been. It's unfortunate about the dealer though, one always hopes that they are at least competent where safety is concerned.

I have a question for you and the HAZMAT experienced guys; if the smell is that bad but isn't to the point of ignition, is there still a risk of suffocation? Every once in a while I walk past our autoclave at work and they are refueling the liquid Nitrogen tanks. A lot of 'spillage' and corresponding fog inthe winter - it can actually be a suffocation hazzard because the nitrogen pools in between the buildings (this is what I was told by some of our HAZMAT guys). Wondered what the concentration levels would have to be to be a suffocation threat with propane.

BBB


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

Propane does not readily displace O2 the way some gases can (unless at very high levels) and I am surprised that N2 (nitrogen) would be classed as a surfactant since 78% of the air we breath is N2. There must be something about it when it is just turning from Liquid to Gas that makes it a bit more of a danger as it could possibly lower the O2 level.

See excerpt from the MSDS for Propane.









Okay reading that it is very nasty but to displace the normal atmosphere and lower the O2 level below 19.5% you will have already set off the LEL alarm.


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

Air is made up of Nitrogen (78.03%), Oxygen (20.99%), Argon (0.94%), Carbon Dioxide (0.033%), Neon (0.0015%), Helium (0.000524%), Krypton (0.00014%), and Xenon (0.000006%). All of these amounts are percentage's by volume at sea level. An increase in one or more will displace, there by reduce the concentration of the others to varying degrees. If the oxygen percentage drops below 19.5%, it is concidered and O2 defincient atmosphere (at work we wear Self Contained Breathing Apparatus (SCBA) at levels below this). O2 levels above 23.5% constitute an oxygen enriched atmosphere, and has it's own set of hazards. (for those of you who remember, the tragic Apollo I fire that claimed the lives of astronauts Grissom, White, and Chaffe was an oxygen enriched atmosphere in the spacecraft.)

Examples of asphyxiating gases are nitrogen (N2), helium (He), neon (Ne), argon (Ar), methane (CH4), propane (CH3CH2CH3), and carbon dioxide (CO2). Notice any similarities to the make up of air?

Now, not to confuse the issue any further, but to answer Brain's question, if there is a window open, you may not lower the O2 content of the camper much, while standing. But since propane is heavier then air, it is possible for the atmosphere at floor level to be O2 deficient.

If your propane alarm is working properly though, it should activate long before this happens, and you would smell the propane long before the alarm activated, assuming you were in the camper the whole time.

Hope I didn't confuse anyone.....

Tim


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