# 21rs And 2004 Ford Explorer Scale Results



## ddavidson (Jun 12, 2005)

Just weighed in with above combo (Explorer has 4.6l V8 with tow package). Here's the results. First number is rating, second number is actual, third number is difference. All numbers in lbs.

Front Axle: 2728 - 2640 = 88
Rear Axle: 3318 - 2948 = 370
Vehicle: 5971 - 5588 = 383 (actual includes tongue weight)
Combined: 11577 - 10428 = 1149
Tongue: 500 - 352 = 148
Towing: 7000 - 5192 = 1808

Vehicle contained 430 lbs worth of passengers, plus storage box with probably 100 lbs of gear in it, and 1/3 tank of gas.

Trailer contained everything required for camping, 2 full propane tanks, near empty water tank, and and about a 1/3 load of food. It didn't have the 3 bikes that we would normally carry.

If we were to max out, it would add another 950 lbs as follows:

100 bikes
100 additional passenger
500 water
100 food
50 extra battery
100 gas

We would still be within limits, but barely. We just put a Prodigy controller on and it makes a huge difference. We have an equalizer hitch without sway, wondering what people would recommend in this department.

So far the vehicle seems to drive and control OK. We will be taking it on its first trip next week and I will report back. There might be a new truck in my future....

D'Arcy and Amanda
Victoria, B.C.


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## camping479 (Aug 27, 2003)

Very good idea getting your setup weighed. Then you know exactly where you are at.

One thing I see is your tongue weight of 352 seems to be light which can cause problems with sway. The tongue weight should be 10-12% of the trailer weight which would be somewhere in the 500# range. That will add 117# to your truck putting you within a couple hundred pounds of gvw. Something you might want to consider is transferring some or all of your gear in the truck to the front of the trailer to increase the tongue weight.

GVW seems to be the first number that 1/2 ton trucks max out before GCW or tow ratings. Looking at your numbers, you still have 1800 to go to the max tow rating but only a few hundred to your GVW.

If you don't already, consider getting some kind of sway control. At the minimum a friction sway control or better yet would be something along the lines of the equal-i-zer brand sway control hitch system.

Mike


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

I agree with Mike on the sway control. The Equal-i-zer Brand hitch combines both sway control and WD in one unit, and can be had for around $400.

Since you already have a WD hitch, you might find that a friction sway bar would work for you. What is the WB of the Explorer? You can add a friction bar for about $125, but they are the least effective sway control, but with the 21RS it should be sufficient.

I don't know if I would move up to a Dual Cam, if you already have a Reese WD system. The DC relies on a good bit of tongue wgt to work properly, and the 350 that you are carrying now is the lowest the Reese recommends using it with.

Good to see alot more folks are weighing their rigs to find out just where they stand.

Tim


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## Ghosty (Jan 17, 2005)

Dude -- let me put my Minister of Safety hat on and spout some free advice...

You have two train of thoughts on this-- those that say "Hell if I can get the TT wheels rolling, no matter if my bumper is dragging and the engine and transmission is smoking then I am OK" and those that say "Its not worth the risk of yourself, your family, those personnel around you and your equipment to pull a TT that exceeds your TV limits"...

Two rules you need to be concerned with -- 75% rule and Braking...

Braking -- its not how much you can tow -- but how much you can stop... you have now attached 6000 pounds to the frame of your TV -- and at 20 miles per hour -- your TV and TT combined has the impact velocity of 60 tons!! Means that your brakes have to work harder then they normally do at regular TV weights...

75% rule says to take your GVWR (yours is 11577) and multiply it by 75% = 8682.

That means that your vehicle -- fully loaded with trailer tongue weight, equipment, fuel, people should not exceed 8682. Your truck is 1746 pounds overweight using the 75% safety limit.

We do 75-80% becuase Vehicle manufacturers exaggerate their ability to tow in order for you to purchase their product -- also at max GVWR your engine, transmission and brakes are at their MAX --

but the main concern is your abilty to control and stop your equipment in an emergency situation.

Anyway - I will get off my safety soapbox and put on the "time to go and mow the yard" hat before the temp hits 100 again...

good luck ...

Chevys got some great truck deals now by the way --


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## campntn (Feb 20, 2005)

Congrats on being so investigative as to your tv/camper. Our setup is "ok". The Durango has a hoss motor and pulls the unit great. However, even with the wdh/sway controls, there is a small amount of sway. We love the Durango and don't want to trade, however, I see a truck in our future.








Our case has not to do with pulling power, it'll tow 7500. but with what I feel is a wheelbase width issue. A wider truck wheelbase will make a more stable pull. We'll keep this setup for awhile, but lets just say I have some calls into some dealers. We love our Outback and see many years of fun ahead. Also, many years of travel. Get something safe and COMFORTABLE for travel. long tows can be weary.
Safe/Happy Camping,
Mark


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

> ! Thats means that your brakes have to work two to three times harder then they normally do at regular TV weights...


That's why there are 4 more braking wheels on the trailer. If you don't feel they add to the braking effort, try pulling the manual brake lever on the brake controller. If you don't feel the trailer bringing the whole rig to a stop, you need to adjust your brakes, or check the wiring of your BC.



> The second rule of thumb is the 75% rule
> 
> The 75% rule says to take your GVWR (yours is 11577) and multiply it by 75% = 8682.
> 
> That means that your vehicle -- fully loaded with trailer tongue weight, equipment, fuel, people should not exceed 8682. Your truck is 1746 pounds overweight using the 75% safety limit.


Using that rule, ddavidson, and most of us with 1/2 ton trucks would only be able to tow trailers weighing less then 3500#. I better sell my outback and buy a popup!

I think you are confusing Gross Combined Wgt Rating with Gross Vehicle Wgt Rating.

The 75% rule of thumb that I am familiar with, which can be found on the Outbacker FAQ link, says that, you should not tow a trailer weighing more then 75% of your vehicles rated tow capacity. In this case, our original poster, ddavidison is within the limits of this rule.

While we are on the rule of thumb kick, there is also the WB rule of thumb, which reads:

A tow vehicle should have a minimum wheelbase of 100 inches. A wheelbase of 110 inches is recommended for a 20-foot trailer. For every additional foot of trailer length (above 20') add 4 inches to the wheelbase. i.e., a 22 foot trailer=118 inches wheelbase, a 24 foot trailer=126 inches wheelbase. Etc. However, when you get into the larger, full size tow vehicles, such as Surburban's, F-150's, Ram Trucks, etc. this rule relaxes, as these types of vehicles (if properly set up) are capable of towing much larger trailers than this rule would suggest.

That being said, I do insist that everyone be safe, and I am off my soapbox.

Tim


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## Ghosty (Jan 17, 2005)

hatcityhosehauler said:


> Using that rule, ddavidson, and most of us with 1/2 ton trucks would only be able to tow trailers weighing less then 3500#.Â I better sell my outback and buy a popup!
> 
> I think you are confusing Gross Combined Wgt Rating with Gross Vehicle Wgt Rating.Â


The Ford 2004 offical towing guide shows his GVWR as 11600 if he got the Towing Package installed at the factory. His max tow (pull) weight is 7140 according to Ford

If he uses the guidelines at http://www.rvsafety.com/gvwrworksheet.htm

I think that he is above limits. However i could be wrong..

As far as the 1/2 can only tow 3500 -- yes you are close --

(GVWR - Curb Weight) = Maximum Payload.

But then you are talking PAYLOAD and carrying the entire trailer in the bed of the truck -- since we are only carrying the tongue weight (approx 600) we can tow allot more --- my Chevy has a Payload weight of 2000 and a tow weight of 8700. I would NOT though want to fill the backend of my Chevy to MAX and then drive like a wildman....

another good site is http://gmcanada.com/english/truckguide/pick_capacity.html

The calculations for my truck without trailer came to

GVWR 6400 lb
- Curb Weight 4360 lb
= Maximum Payload 2040 lb

But then again -- I may be wrong...


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## ddavidson (Jun 12, 2005)

Thanks for the feedback. I weighed the rig because I felt we must be close based on the way it was towing compare to my previous TT (20' lite), and our horse trailer (which weighs the same as the OB, but tows easier).

The number that surprised me the most was the trailer weight at 5192. That is a far cry from the 3990 on the OB brochure, and I can guarantee that we don't have 1200 lbs of gear in the trailer. Has anybody weighed a trailer off the lot with typical options installed, but no payload?

As far as 'rules-of-thumb' go, I don't pay too much attention to them. I am basing my decision on two things (in order):

1. How the trailer tows. If I don't find towing the trailer comfortable and feel safe driving it, I am going to get a new tow vehicle. No compromises on this one, even if I am within the 'rule-of-thumb', which appears debatable based on previous posts. So far the power and braking seem good, the real question in my mind is stability.

2. Legality. The rig must be legal.

I will let everybody know after the long weekend. In the meantime, I will probably pick up a friction sway bar.


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## camping479 (Aug 27, 2003)

Check the backsided of the upper kitchen cabinet. There should be a tag with weights on it. Ours came from the factory at 4380#, that doesn't include propane etc.

I'm supposed to get ours weighed Thurs. so I'll know more then.

Friction bar would be a good idea









mike


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## ddavidson (Jun 12, 2005)

OK,

I am getting a little confused now. The GVWR of the trailer is 5500 lbs. With our current weight of 5192, this leaves us an additional 297 lbs of capability. I can't even fill up the water tank, regardless of tow vehicle. Bikes and a second battery are out of the question.

Assuming everything so far is correct, this means that I am currently carrying 750 lbs of cargo in my trailer (not including water and propane), which I find hard to believe. I am now going to empty the trailer and head back to the scales....

Has anybody else checked their loaded trailer weight against the GVWR rating? How does it stack up?

D'Arcy


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

ddavidson has the right idea, see how everything feels, and go from there. The numbers are all within factory spec's.

Tim


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## Ghosty (Jan 17, 2005)

I would also look at transfering some of the weight forward -- your hitch tongue rate is normally 10-12% of your trailer GVWR -- yours is weighing in at 352 .. just move some of your gear forward..

I know when I first bought my 23RS I had it weighed on the way home and the factory sticker stated 4360 (empty) and I weighed in at 4717 with two full propane bottles, 5 gallons of water in each tank, and an extra battery ...

so yes the sticker is only a rough estimate -- there is a new push in Congress by the insurance companies to require each TT to be weighed as it comes off the assembly line and a accurate sticker posted ...

The insurance company each year pays (and often denies payments) for accidents that are caused by overloading...


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## outbackgeorgia (Jan 28, 2004)

I would highly recommend at least a friction anti-sway.
Cheap and it works. As the friction is adjustable, it is VERY effective, but can be noisy.
In over 15,000 miles of towing my 21RS with my Durango (longer wheelbase than Explorer) with NO issues, I did one time attempt to tow without the friction anti-sway as I was "just going to another campsite" nearby in South Dakota (Black Hills).
As I crested a hill, a strong wind started a sway that did not stop!
I braked, stopped, and immediately attached the anti-sway. No more sway. The road was gravel, by the way.
I only mention this as it takes only once for all the conditions to stack up against you. 
Cheap insurance.
It looks like the rest of your numbers are OK, the 21RS is supposed to max out at 5500 lbs. We love ours.

Outbackgeorgia


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## CamperAndy (Aug 26, 2004)

ddavidson said:


> The number that surprised me the most was the trailer weight at 5192.Â That is a far cry from the 3990 on the OB brochure, and I can guarantee that we don't have 1200 lbs of gear in the trailer.Â Has anybody weighed a trailer off the lot with typical options installed, but no payload?
> 
> [snapback]41960[/snapback]​


The weight listed is without options. there are a bunch of things that are listed as options that are standard as example I have never seen an Outback without an AC and it is an option. There is a lot more like that and it adds up.

All of the things listed below are not part of the sticker dry weight.

Outback Options
Outside Camp Kitchen 
Oven 
4-Stabilizer Jacks 
Outside Shower 
2 Security Lights 
Tub Surround 
6 gal. Gas/Electric DSI Water Heater 
14â€ Spare Tire Kit 
Exterior Aluminum Picnic Table 
Comfort Package:

TV Antenna/Cable Hook up 
Microwave 
AM/FM/CD Stereo 
A & E Awning 
13,500 Ducted Carrier A/C (w/Remote) 
Designer Package

Oval Mirror 
Wall Border 
Cloth Shower Curtain 
Laundry Hamper 
Bathroom Accessories 
Brushed Nickel Coat Hooks 
Utensil Rack 
Sofa Pillows 
Innerspring Mattress 
Bedspread 
LP/Battery Cover 
Chrome Bumper Cover 
Catch-All Tray 
Raised Panel Refrigerator 
Recessed Cutting Board

The feel of towing being different may be the wind resistance due to the frontage area of the Outback vs. the horse trailer, it is amassing how much of a difference it makes.


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## Drew'smom (Mar 18, 2004)

We have a Mercury Mountaineer with the V8, extra tow package, weight distr. hitch, brake controller, and sway bar. Our wheel base is 110" so the 21RS is OK. We do not go further than 2-3 hours away and don't go up any thing steep (we live in jersey). We feel OK with the set up, but could feel better. The #'s add up fine, but will go for a bigger tow vehicle when the kids are a little bigger and we want to go further away and into more mountainous terrain.
Hope you had a good trip!


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## Highlander96 (Mar 1, 2005)

We have a 2004 Explorer. It did just fine to put the boat in the water and to pull it out. Our boat is about 4500 lbs. loaded.









When looking at TT's we ran numbers up, down, left, right and side to side and just did not feel real comfortable with the set up. I ended up buying a new truck. The safety and security of my family and those around me is just too valuable.

We were coming home from Richmond this morning and I had several cars jump in front of me and hit the brakes. It sure felt good being in the truck and knowing that I had enough vehicle to control the situation.

My $.02

Tim


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## kjdj (Sep 14, 2004)

ddavidson said:


> OK,
> 
> I am getting a little confused now. The GVWR of the trailer is 5500 lbs. With our current weight of 5192, this leaves us an additional 297 lbs of capability. I can't even fill up the water tank, regardless of tow vehicle. Bikes and a second battery are out of the question.
> 
> ...


That was my point on another post of this same subject.


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## ddavidson (Jun 12, 2005)

Just got back from a 450 mile trip.

Driving Summary:

1/3 flat/straight road
1/3 gravel/narrow/twisty/hilly (I wish I had pictures, I've driven on wider cow trails)
1/3 paved/twisty/hilly (18% grades in sections)

Loaded Weight:

A few hundred pounds greater than the actual numbers posted at the beginning of this thread. Completely within vehicle/trailer limits.

Mileage:

8.5 - 9.7 miles per US gallon (we do everything in litres/100km up here).

Power:

Not bad, not great. The 18% grades were <40 mph at > 4000 rpm. Realistically, I could have only used more power for about 10 miles of the entire trip, because most of the ugly climbs were twisty as well, so I wouldn't have gone faster even if I could have.

Side note: I am happy that I have a the extended warranty on this vehicle, as I have never had good luck with Ford transmissions....

Stability:

Before the trip, I put on the Reese HP dual-cam sway control. The unit handled great up to 65 mph, which I never exceeded. Typical driving speed on the straight/flat sections was 60-62 mph. I felt no sway/stability problems whatsoever, even when being passed by big trucks or in windy conditions. One thing I did notice was some porpoising when driving over bad sections of road. I may be able to help with with some tweaks to the WD, but more likely is a result of the shortish TV wheelbase (114").

Bottom Line:

I felt completely safe with the setup, and will continue to use it for the remainder of this camping season. I will likely buy a new 2500HD next year, which I need so I can bring the dirt bikes along as well, and have some additional towing power. Hopefully better mileage as well.

D'Arcy & Amanda
James & Ben
04 Explorer, 05 21RS
Prodigy & Reese HP


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

> One thing I did notice was some porpoising when driving over bad sections of road. I may be able to help with with some tweaks to the WD, but more likely is a result of the shortish TV wheelbase (114").


Could be the soft suspension of the Explorer too. My Avalanche has a 133" wheelbase, and still get some porpoising on rough roads.

Tim


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