# Towing



## jbglenn (Mar 23, 2004)

Hi everybody,
First I would like to say that I enjoy reading all the helpful comments everyone makes. This is one of the best led forums I have seen. Unfortuntly I don't own an Outback but I hope you guys won't hold it against me. I just bought a fleetwood wilderness 260fl. It is a great trailer but I think my towing expetations might be too high. The weight of the trailer is 7700 pounds loaded. I know it is a little on the heavy side but I thought my 2003 dodge ram 1500 Hemi would be able to handle it. I have the 3.9 rearend and a [email protected] FIPK. I get around 15-17 mpg unloaded, when hauling to my disgust I get [email protected] pounds at the time. Is this normal? I have never towed anything this big before. Im scared I might have too much trailer and not enought truck. Can anyone shed some light on the subject for me? Thanks.


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

jbglenn, glad you find the site helpful, there are a lot of great Outbackers here, but we don't discriminate









As for your setup, without knowing your truck details its hard to say if you are over the limit or not. I would suggest checking the owners manual, as it should have a section on tow capacities including max trailer weight and the GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating), which is the max trailer weight, truck weight, passengers and luggage the truck can tow/haul. Those two numbers will tell you a lot about your safe zone. Your millage may not be that bad, my Av gets 14/17 when not towing, but it does drop around 9 when towing. Your mileage does seem lower than I would expect., but that could be impacted by where you are towing (hills) and your weight.


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## jbglenn (Mar 23, 2004)

Thanks Y-Guy,
I Looked at the dodge website and typed in my vehicle info and it said i could pull 7,300lbs, it also states that the GCWR should never be exceeded.(13000LBS). The GVWR of the truck is 6800lbs, the GVWR of the trailer is7,700. It looks like the dealership Overloaded me. They looked at a book in their office and said it could handle 8,200. Is the dealership liable and should they take back the trailer at paid price. ? Do I have any legal ground to stand on?


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

I really don't know about any legal issues, its usually buyer be ware. If you are sure you have the right specs on your truck I'd go back to the dealer. Might want to weight the whole setup on the way so you can show that you are over the limit of the truck. Sorry to hear you're over weight with the setup.


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## jgerni (Nov 10, 2003)

I would go get the setup weighted before anything. It looks like you have enough engine to pull that load but not sure about suspension, brakes etc. I have noticed that small block V8s gas mileage will drop about 1/2 when towing a heavy load then compaired to empty. My towing MPG is anywhere from 8 - 11mpg depending on terain and conditions and 14 - 18 empty.


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## JimWilson (Feb 24, 2004)

Before you have any legal recourse -- assuming you do -- you are invariably going to have to provide some precise weights. That means getting the truck, and trailer, weighed. Separately and together. In full camping trim. Then you can go from there.

But, from what you've described, I'd have to say that if you're not over weight your close enough so towing will always be a struggle. And if you tow often enough your truck might thank you by becoming an expensive, recurring problem from worn out/over used parts (the tranny in particular).

As you've noticed, these guys don't discriminate. Heck, I don't even OWN a camper and they still let me play along!


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

> The GVWR of the truck is 6800lbs, the GVWR of the trailer is7,700.


These are Gross Weight Ratings, meaning, the most the vehicle in question can weigh. Let's take my Avalanche for instance. The GVWR is 7000#. The vehicle weight, according to the door sticker is 5600#. That means I can load 1400# including passengers and fuel into the vehicle before I am overloaded. There should be a similar sticker located on your driver's door, as they are fairly standard. This will at least give you a starting point before you can get the truck to a scale.

The same applies to the TT. Somewhere on the TT there should be a label stating what the trailer weighs without options, propane and water. The Outbacks are weighed when they leave the factory, and a sticker is placed inside one of the kitchen cabinets, which gives the wgt of the trailer as equipped, minus the propane (4+ #/gal) and water (8.3 #/Gal).

As far as the mileage differences, like Y-Guy, I am getting around 9 mpg while towing. I do this in 3rd gear, staying out of OD except on long level stretches, and the tranny in Tow/Haul mode. When not towing, I am getting 13-15 mpg, depending on the amount highway driving I do.

I don't have any personal knowledge on the new Hemi's, but one of the guys I work with has a 3 year old 2500 series, and he get around 10 mpg around town.

Tim


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## jbglenn (Mar 23, 2004)

Thanks for everybody's help, I went back to the dealer today and explained the the weight differences and was basically told tuff. They added to dry weight on everything and came up under the limit. I guess this was a learning mistake.


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## Thor (Apr 7, 2004)

Hi

Regarding milage, again the Canadian thing it is metric. I own a Denali with a 6 liter engine. Normal fuel use is about 15.4 liters / 100km. Driving on the highway at 110km/h with TT, my computer was indicating about 19.5 l/100km. The trip was about 2hrs on level road. Once I started climbimg some hills the fuel usage jumped to 25-29 l/100km.


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

> Regarding milage, again the Canadian thing it is metric. I own a Denali with a 6 liter engine. Normal fuel use is about 15.4 liters / 100km. Driving on the highway at 110km/h with TT, my computer was indicating about 19.5 l/100km. The trip was about 2hrs on level road. Once I started climbimg some hills the fuel usage jumped to 25-29 l/100km.


Huh?









That sounds like a medication drip calculation.









Tim


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## luv2rv (Jun 21, 2004)

hatcityhosehauler said:


> The Outbacks are weighed when they leave the factory, and a sticker is placed inside one of the kitchen cabinets, which gives the wgt of the trailer as equipped, minus the propane (4+ #/gal) and water (8.3 #/Gal).


Tim,

You mention that the Outbacks have a sticker that deducts weight of propane and water. I am currenly looking at a 28BH-S on the lot. The weight on the sticker is 5224lbs minus 374lbs for water and another amount for Propane.

Based on this the dealer is telling me then that the trailer weighs only 4,850lbs with options and dry. Is he right?

Thanks,
Wayne


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## hurricaneplumber (Apr 12, 2004)

My 28BHS has a catalog weight of 4930lbs, no options. The sticker inside says something around 5240lbs, this is with all the options as it sits from factory.

Water 8.3 lbs/gallon x 45 gallons = 374lbs.
Propane = 60lb

For my 28BHS.
Total dry weight from dealer approximately 5240lbs.
Total wet weight approximately 5675lbs.

When you pull away from the dealer, with trailer and full propane, you should be around 5300lbs.

Does that confuse or help?

Besides weight, note that the 28BHS is a big mother behind you. The Trailblazers wheel base would be of some concern for this long trailer. Also check your GCWR rating. When it is all said and done, your 28BHS could weigh in at 6500 loaded with all of your stuff, depends on how you load and what you take. The 28BHS has my truck just under its maximum numbers. When I upgrade tow vehicles, I will be going to 3/4 ton and probably diesel.

Kevin


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## camping479 (Aug 27, 2003)

I'll have to check the sticker on ours. If I'm remembering right, the sticker gives the dry weight of the trailer on one line, the weight of a full tank of water on another and then gives a total of the two. That number is then subtracted from the gross vehicle weight of the trailer and gives the remaining cargo carrying capacity. There may be more weights there, but those are the ones I'm remembering right now.

All the numbers there are important if you want to calculate the total gross vehicle weight of the trailer when you are loaded ready to camp. Depending on how much gear you plan on taking, you will need to add between 500 and 1000# to the dry weight on the sticker. The weight seems to pile on quickly when you add propane, water, battery, clothing, gear,etc. For reference, we travel pretty light and add approximately 600# to the dry weight of our trailer.

Mike


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## luv2rv (Jun 21, 2004)

Thanks Kevin. That helps. I think he's trying to sell me more trailer than my TV will handle.

The more forums I read the more discouraged I am about what my Trailblazer is capable of.

Wayne


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

Wayne,

To clear up any confusion I may have created, I went out to my 26RS, and looked. This is what the sticker I was referring to says.

GVWR=6000#

minus Unloaded vehicle wgt of 4780#
minus fresh water wgt of approx. 374# (45 gals. x 8.3#/gal)
minus LP wgt of 60# (two 30# cylinders, or 14 gals. x 4.2#/gal)
Equals cargo carrying capacity of 786#

It also describes the UVW as the vehicle weight as manufactered at the factory, included generator if installed with full fuel and oil, as measureed at the axles and tongue or pin. This UVW doesn't include the battery or batteries, as they are a dealer installed option.

The way that I interpret that is the trailer weighs 4780, not including water and LP. I know that the Trailblazers are rated to tow a good bit of weight, but I would be a little uncomfortable with a 28' trailer and the short WB of the Trailblazer.

I think that you may experience a bit of the "tail wagging the dog syndrome" with that TV and a 28' trailer (the 28BHS is actually 29'10" if I remember correctly).

Good luck with your search, and whichever TT you decide on, make sure you have a quality WD hitch with sway control. With both of the trailers you mentioned, I would be considering a Reese/Draw-Tite Dual Cam HP, or an Equal-i-zer brand hitch. Don't let the dealer talk you into a friction sway bar. They work for smaller trailers, but you are already behind the 8-ball a bit with the shorter WB TV.

Tim


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## luv2rv (Jun 21, 2004)

Thanks Tim.

I have a Husky Friction sway control and Husky WD hitch. It's too small for a larger trailer so I'll definitely upgrade.

I have been towing my Aerolite 25RBH with the Trailblazer... it's 3400lbs dry. I generally don't tow with fluids on board so add another 600lbs for gear and I'm likely 4000lbs loaded. Doesn't bother the truck at all and haven't experienced any seriou s sway.

Guess I'll just have to hook on to one and see how it feels.

Wayne


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## hurricaneplumber (Apr 12, 2004)

Wayne,

Checked my 2004 28BHS lastnight, number descriptions same as Tim describes.

GVWR=7000lbs
UVW=5260lbs
45 gallon water=374lbs
14 gallons LP=60
CCC=1306 (amount of stuff you can add)

UVW is the weight the trailer came from the factory, no batteries. I have dual 6 volts, each at 62lbs. I measured my tongue weight at 750lbs the other day.

My truck has a 139" wheelbase, when hitched up and looking at the whole rig, the truck seems balanced for the length of the trailer. I also have a 5.4 engine and 3.73 gears with limited slip diff.

I am just under the GCWR for my truck when fully loaded. I am still finalizing hitch adjustments, I manage fine with this setup, but the next truck will be a 3/4 ton to give me more play in the numbers and comfort level.

Definately buy a good hitch regardless of which model you choose, that is the only link between you and that big box behind you.

I would sum up all of your numbers and go from there.

Good luck

Kevin


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## Y-Guy (Jan 30, 2004)

You know this type of question comes up a lot. I really keep thinking we need a downloadable Excel file that we could point folks to where they can plug in the numbers to get some idea of their safe zone. Only concern is the liabilty that comes with that type of document. I know I did the calculations before I bought, but seems like it would be a nice thing to have for future Outbackers.


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

Wayne,

Will the dealer let you do a "test tow" to see how the Trailblazer handles things


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## hurricaneplumber (Apr 12, 2004)

I have used one of those charts, with "use at your own risk" plastered all over it. I wasn't even sure if who set it up knew what they were doing. That is exactly why so many folks pull away from telling someone what they can haul. All of my comments are based either on my own experience or data I have looked up. I would hope that everyone that is getting into this sport for the first time, that they are really studying what they have and how to go about towing. I see too many folks ill informed or just plain stubborn to listen on what is involved in towing.

Things I have learned over the years of camping and towing, more since this site has been around:

1. Tow vehicles, usually you can haul less than you think it is capable of towing.
2. Trailer weights are deceiving, and they just plain weigh more than you think they do.
3. Gears, horsepower, torque, etc. You shouldn't connect a 6000 lb box to a Ford Ranger, but people still do.
4. Hitches and sway control, confusing, simple, cheap, expensive, varying opinions, which one is correct? Is there a correct one...
5. GCWR, GVR, UVW, CCC, GTW, etc..........^*&%$?????? Many, many people don't bother to understand these acronyms. (or could care less)
6. You can overanalyze it to death and get so confused as what to do that it takes the fun out of it.

I would hope that people who read these forums are taking them for what they are, advice, suggestions, opinions etc. Please make sure to do your homework on your setup. Safety is my number one concern when towing.

I want everyone to be able to enjoy the camping experience, but also to be able to tell their grandkids about it, there has already been one terrible accident this year that fortunately only resulted in destroyed vehicle and trailer. I just soon not have to read anymore of those stories. Please spend the time to research and make sure your trailer and tow vehicle are capable.

Kevin


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## jgerni (Nov 10, 2003)

Well said hurricaneplumber.


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## hatcityhosehauler (Feb 13, 2004)

Can I get an amen from the congregation? That was very well said Kevin.

Tim


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## luv2rv (Jun 21, 2004)

hatcityhosehauler said:


> Wayne,
> 
> Will the dealer let you do a "test tow" to see how the Trailblazer handles things


Yes, I have a deposit on one that comes in next week. Everything is dependant upon how my truck does with the test tow. I am planning a TV upgrade next season ... the TT is just so nice it's hard to walk away









If the Trailblazer handles it well enough ... I'll make do for the balance of the season and set it up better next season.

Thanks for all the advice. It's important to ensure that folks are informed and understand the limitations of vehicles.

Worse comes to Worse I'll borrow my Brother in laws big Dodge Cummins to keep me on the road this summer.









Wayne


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## hurricaneplumber (Apr 12, 2004)

Wayne,

I am glad to hear that you are giving this lots of thought and possibly will be upgrading tow vehicles.

Enough said about that.

I have the 28BHS and really like the floor plan for what we do, I personally did not want the master bed to be a slide-out so we went with the 28. I have been in the 25RSS that Kimacobb owns, it also is very nice and good layout. The 25RSS seems to be one of the most popular models here, so must be many people really like it.

Either or, at least your looking at an Outback. Good luck in your selection.

As far as tow vehicle upgrades, plan ahead and give yourself room to grow. In this case bigger is better!!!

Good Luck

Kevin


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